Just to add a bit of structural engineering context to the issue of overloaded car parks: Category F Design imposed loading on car park structures = 2.5 kPa (Ref EN 1991-1-1 or BS 6399-1). Typical car parking space dimensions 2.4m x 4.8m. Therefore design imposed load per car park space = 2.5 x 2.4 x 4.8 kN = 28.8kN or 2935kg. So until the average weight of cars exceeds approximately 2.9te (no matter the fuel type) then car park structures should generally remain quite happy to support your car without too much stress!
If enough people in Britain starts driving the new humvee or heaven help us the tesla truck the solution parking stations would have worked be to mark out larger parking bays, to bring the pressure to within specifications. And obviously charge extra for the privilege. Not ban the cars from the stations. I doubt enough people in Britain is going to buy such cars though, they will not fit on most side roads.
The fact that many ICE based cars are getting heavier, while electric cars will get lighter as battery energy is improved and in the case of Tesla the use of Gigapress to reduce material.
There are already cautions in the UK over some heavy ICE SUVs being over a car driver's licence limit of 3.5 tons if the vehicle is fully laden with passengers and their luggage.
Uhhhggg. This is starting out poorly, folks. You don't debunk a statement about batteries lasting 10 years by googling Leafs that ARE still for sale and noting that THOSE cars have working batteries. A) if a 10-11 year old Leaf has a failed battery, you're not going to see it listed for sale. It's in the scrapper/wrecker/auction. B) many Leafs that did have a failed battery have had to have their batteries replaced, so perusing Leafs for sale and not enquiring about all of them having original batteries or the battery SOH is lazy, and not scientific. Point Atkinson, not you, but you could have found a better argument for your point.
Lobbyists get paid for doing it. Most are not capable of sorting out the wheat from the chaff. And yes some just have an agenda - either because they don’t like the change or are conspiracy pushers. The oil companies all have an agenda, of course.
The sad truth is that sensationalism sells. How many people who believed and are spreading the Atkinson article are going to watch this? A competing article that covers the materiel they talk about here would simply not sell papers (or drive clicks) because the truth is boring.
Why don’t you invite Rowan Atkinson to come and discuss this with you on camera. Could be really interesting to see his response to the rebuttals of his article.
I own a 2014 Tesla model S 85 with 72,000 miles on the clock and a battery which is currently at 92% according to my local Tesla dealership (I asked them to carry out a diagnostic last month). I have a friend who owns a similar age car, with 120,000 miles, and HIS battery is still over 90% !
It’s generally known that a Tesla battery will last 120,000 miles. So good luck replacing it after then as there’s no way round a fault code one day you start the car up the fault code pings up and there’s no moving the car until you shell out £15,000.
@@alfie217 It’s getting cheaper on a daily basis. The guy who sold me my Model S now works on them… including reconditioning existing batteries. He reckons he could bring my battery up to 100% for as little as $2,000. Another company will replace my existing battery (with a 90 kWh one) for around $7,000, as long as they get the original one to then recondition.
Well done ⚡ team. As a petrol head & X racing driver I have to accept change and facts ref the planet. So should Mr Bean. Yes I miss engine sound, currently enjoying my new EV though.
@@a07z Yes, I miss these things too - The smells more than the noise, because lets face it, anyone who's lived with a sports exhaust on a day-to-day basis knows, it gets old real quick and hardly anything with less than 8 cylinders really sounds that good anyway. Most of the people complaining have never had anything other than a 4 cylinder generic buzz box. The rest of us know, it's not childish, it's just in the past. I'm never going back; the smells & sounds are just not worth the accompanying dial-up throttle response and abusive relationship with the petrochemical industry! 😆
I think that there is too much wrong information on the internet with the aim of dissuading people from ev, and we know who supports them. Especially for batteries. Batteries are so valuable at the moment that a battery with 60-70% capacity of 50kw is sold for 5000 euros here in Croatia and you can find a buyer right away. The second life battery is a very popular commodity currently on the market that even the big car companies have joined it. So if, for example, the EV was damaged in a collision and the battery was not damaged, do not give up on it, because you can get a substantial amount for the battery..
I can never understand so many negative comments about going electric, the main reason should be is air quality, the major air polluter are vehicles that run on fossel fuels, if you live in the city or large urban areas just look up in the sky the red you can see is nitrogen oxides , this is major air quality pollution which reduces life expectancy. we have on average 18 percent oxygen in the atmosphere, The argument should not be how long a electric vehicle gets into the emission positive before the ICE engines but the air we breathe now to make a cleaner environment .
You had me at "all of them with perfectly good batteries it working order". It was so pathetically stupid statement (no wonder, considering the quality of "research" that was done here) that it was no point to watch the video any further.
OMG as an engineer I would agree with Rowan completely, denying physics is a fools game. Beside Rowan also own an EV or two beside many petrol cars, his views are quite balanced. The rare earths are used in the motor drive and the extensive amount of electronics, and maybe some is in the battery chemistry too, the precise chemistry details are not going to be public. As for post life as battery backup for the grid, thats all well and good, but storing energy in chemistry form is 1000s times cheaper than electrical energy will ever be and that be physics. Storing energy in nuclear form ie mining uranium as late as possible is millions of times cheaper than even chemical energy storage. Trying to store more than 1% of electrical grid energy per day is a fools errand too. As for construction of course EVs have a much higher embedded energy cost, it's as if the odometer has 50 to 200 thousand miles on the odometer at the point of sale. Ofcourse the post manufacture has a much higher carbon slope for gas than electric. Now some of the fancy expensive EVs use Aluminium instead of steel, the embedded energy of Al vs Fe is 6 times so those high end cars with Al chassis will never pay back. The best EVs are going to be compact and or taxi shared use cars which would payback very quickly. The very high end electric cars are vanity pieces that will smother the carbon savings of smaller EVs that use the least amount embeddedenergy or rare metals. Beside Li ion batteries could well be replaced by the very similar Sodium ion cells which can even be made on the same lines, much cheaper to make (in the future with scaling), Na is 1000x more common than Li, but the range is a bit less and much lower fire risk. CATL. The issue with parking lots car park has more to do with imagined fire hazard, an EV fire is orders more difficult to put out than the ICE fires, and there have been some spectacular ship fires that were loaded up with EVs and Ice cars. And the BYD car fires in China are ubiqitous on RUclips, I refer to those as Burn Yourself to Death cars, would never take that brand. However it does seem as if the fossil fuel industry is backing a hugely massive campaign to push anti EV talking points, and repeating the same point endlessly out of context, it is those videos the hosts should be taking issue with. Most of those videos are coming from petrol heads.
Chemistry details are public, zero Cobolt. The well known RUclips anti china channel shows images of petrol and hybrid fires and calls them all EVs. ( in china a model can be made in ev hybrid and ice and be difficult to identity) There have only been approx 600 battery runaway fires worldwide from 2010 according to EVfiresafe. BYD ‘s blade LFP battery is regarded has having the best safety record. Maybe one or two (disputed) incidents in China. Following the ship fires (where EVs were not the cause) EU funded a marine body to research risks associated with roll on roll off vessels. They produced an advice sheet which debunks the FUD. Fuel load is similar in ice and Bev they point out. In respect to grid battery storage your view is that chasing 1% is a fools errand yet millions are being made in both supplying and operating grid batteries (peak and arbitrage) battery packs are reducing in price and grid storage doubled last year in USA.
On the subject of 10 year old batteries, you say they are perfectly good, but EV batteries still degrade at an average rate of 2.3% a year even with the complex management systems. So an EV battery may only be 75% effective after 10 years. Current figures suggest that a EV battery life expectancy may even be 15 to 20 years but the range will be significantly reduced.
Well said ladies. Rowan won’t have done any research on this other than superficially so I feel a little sorry for him. Of course the anti-EV Daily Mail/Express/Telegraph brigade have jumped on this with the usual press ‘told you so’ but anyone with half a brain will find out the facts themselves. EV’s aren’t a Nirvana but long-term benefits are huge.
Define "huge"? If we keep trading in our ICE Golf for ever heavier ID4 or worse using substantial amounts of non-green or non-nuclear electricity, the gain will be minimal at best. That's without the fact we all have more vehicles driving more miles and order more stuff online that needs to be delivered to us.. So it all depends.
@@LinuxMaster9 Not really true. I was walking along my street this afternoon with ear buds in and could hear a Tesla Model 3 drive past me over the podcast I was listening to. They still create plenty of road noise. In carparks they generally make an audible "hum" at low speed when there is very little noise from the tyres.
Thank you so much for this episode! I listened to Mr. Atkinson’s talk and, to my surprise, thinking how wrong some of the information actually was that he talked about. I’m a big fan of his, but have wondered why he would spread such misinformation.
Good job ladies! Would be interesting to see what you'd find if you selected an appropriate max weight (say 2000kg) and then found out how many MPs and Lords drive cars over that limit and sent them all letters advising them that their cars might be banned from using multi-level parking lots.
@@casperhansen826 In North America our best selling "car" is the Ford F-Series Pickup Truck, in 2021 they sold about 750,000 of these compared to 300,000 Toyota Camrys. Plus the number two and three sellers were also big pickups from GM and Dodge (about 500,000 units each). These "cars" weigh in from about 2000 - 2500kg unloaded (which is important to note as they often have a bunch of extra stuff installed on them). So our parking lots will benefit from an electric transition only if people don't just switch to buying electric pickups (the F150 Lightning is 2700 - 3200kg).
Great video and well explained. I was really disappointed by the article as I'm also a big Rowan fan. Sadly there's so much misinformation from the big oil and gas companies and legacy automakers, that it's unsurprising people have these views. Thanks for fighting back with science and evidence! :)
Cobalt is not required for the newer EV batteries (Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo), Lithium/Sodium Hybrid cells, and for smaller cars, Sodium ion cells.
Well done for taking on this subject. Rowan Atkinson is an ill-informed petrol head, I can’t believe the Guardian published his article full of untruth
@@LinuxMaster9 nice try. Atkinson studied engineering at university, and turned to acting in 1979. So his expert engineering knowledge is 44 years out of date. No wonder he likes internal combustion and gets it totally wrong about battery chemistry, technology that has developed massively since he had any serious involvement
Rowen owned both a hybrid and full electric he is saying if everybody is out there are buying new electric cars all at once you will definitely cause more pollution than to service your car now these girls themselves are not seeing the picture Rowan is explaining this to us.those girls are being smug and saying he's anti electric vehicle and he's not he is saying the goverment are forcing people to buy electric cars all at once creating more co2 all at once. When you can fix your old car whether it's electric or gas and keep production lower so we don't over whelm the atmosphere at once.
@@LinuxMaster9 Nope, my degree in the same subject is more recent than his and I disagree with him so only one of us can be right on that basis of engineering knowledge.
So important to see the improvement trends from the technology. Having taken the plunge with a nearly new Nissan Leaf it’s good to hear the car has already reached its carbon payback. We’re also taking it into major credit by so far powering it exclusively from solar (hopefully 8 months in 12 ongoing and with a green energy supplier the other 4). The recycling side is moving faster now too but we need govt initiative for much huger gains.
Relative to EV's using 70% more energy, or "carbon debt" during production you have some additional points that should be used besides the ones you stated. The figures you use only concern the benefits after production whereas there are many more to consider during production, For example: 1. Where is the car produced? If it requires to be shipped via a ship there is quite a bit of carbon for the transit to point of purchase. 2. Are most of the parts locally produced or at least nearby as same as finished car if shipped via ship there is carbon for transit. 3. Electricity production: how much is green used for the manufacturing. There are probably more items during production that can alter the percentage. Just like consuming produced from your own garden is more ecological than bringing them in a boat from far away, or even having to drive to a market to purchase, there are more areas contributing to the carbon footprint which can indeed vary significantly by brand, product and where these make their products.
Yes, but many of the same parameters also apply to ICE vehicles. China is the largest manufacturer of batteries, and more than 50% of their power comes from renewables now. Their transitioning to electrification is happening at a staggering pace. I wonder if the carbon payback times were calculated using the total emissions of the oil industry for the comparison or just of the vehicles themselves!?
@@FullFact548 No question. The issue with this is the complexity of the accounting as much depends on a multitude of variables. Just highlighting that it is not an easy comparison.
@elmojito Yes, I totally agree, and this is a widespread problem, especially in conversation with EV sceptics, who will often refer to the low CO2 of their diesel car, for example, and ignore all the other processes involved getting their fuel from well to pump. I often find this argument put forward when the worst pollution from diesel isn't CO2 but NOx and PM2.5. The zero emissions at point of use is an important construct in my mind.
One thing for certain is it doesn't pollute the air in dense cities which is a major issue now with some significant health concerns. That alone is a good enough reason to drastically reduce use of ICE in dense areas.
There are absolutely no rare earth metals in an EV's battery!! "Rare earth metals" is just a name of that group of elements, they are not "rare" at all, they might well be expensive. Rare earth metals are used to manufacture highly efficient magnets. Talking of EVS, they are only used in electric motors of type "permanent magnet". Rare earth metals are not only used in certain types of electric motors. The biggest part of rare earth metals is used in the glas and ceramic production. Similar discussion as for cobalt, which is mainly used for: cutting, drilling and milling tools, medical technology (artificial joints), traditional automotive engineering (crankshafts, connecting rods, camshafts, valve seat rings), refineries (catalysts for desulfurization of diesel and kerosene), airplanes (engines and turbines), color paints.
haha I parked my car on the drive at my elderly mothers house. Her elderly neighbour came out and we were talking. His first question was "what's the range like?" to which I suggested that he was asking the wrong question and I asked "how far do you need to go?". Anyway, I told him it was about 250 miles practical and takes half an hour to charge. His response "That's not what I read in the Telegraph." *shrugs*
You're making the wrong argument against Rowan's claim about EV production. His citation of Volvo's LCA is accurate, and correct. You did not refute it or even explain it. You tried to make a what-aboutism pivot to challenge the operating emissions. Volvo & Polestar showed the production and operating emissions descretly in their data in the report. They used the example of 100% renewable energy there to show the best case scenario. That impact report was to attempt to show the greenness of their EV, which has been lost on all of you and everyone who attacked the impact report. The question is, why does it emit 25 to 27 tonnes of CO2e to produce (and recycle, which is generally considered about net, since it saves future mining) a Volvo XC-40 Recharge or Polestar 2, when those cars were built in new factories in China that are LEED certified to run on renewable energy? The answer surprised Volvo/Polestar and they later clarified it. They said, when performing life cycle assessment of a car, you must include the emissions of all of your suppliers and all of the factories, transport, mining, extraction, refinement, subassembly, offage, etc. Since these cars are built in China and they don't control their suppliers' businesses, their suppliers high emissions responsible for the lion share of the emissions. So, not unlike the debunking articles you used to make your arguments, you failed to properly address the point that Rowan made about the high production emissions. Even the ICE production emissions were excessive compared to canonical LCA models like those used for GREET2 by Argonne Laboratories. Again, please stop trying to shoot the messenger, Atkinson, or Volvo, or the LCA partner who helped them ascertain these important impact numbers. Instead, REPORT on the issue and bring these problems to the public. You are doing a massive disservice to our future by attempting to discredit an audit that was not in fact flawed. If you want to make the argument that they underrated the ICE impact during operation, be my guest. But you won't be disputing the point Atkinson made about the fact that at delivery, the BEV has substantially more emissions, and those emissions are the important ones, because most EV owners are trying to charge with renewables if at all possible.
this comment is it, the fact he has a degree and a masters is not enough to claim he knows what he is talking about. It would have possibly been, when he got them, and if he did enough to study this issue. Other than that, he just knows a bit more than the average Joe about electrical issues, does not give him credibility to discuss evs
Already BYD and Catl have moved to LFP and even Tesla are using LFP due to no nickle no cobalt. And real soon we will see Sodium in cars. Most of people’s wrong claims have aged already. Thanks for dissecting these claims
I have so many conversations with intelligent good natured folks who regurgitate incorrect facts about how bad EVs are. I’m all for balanced open minded conversations, so I listen carefully and try to correct their mistakes without upsetting them. As with everything, once someone has formed an opinion it’s hard to change it. The oddest thing is how defensive people are, there’s often a feeling they are being accused simply for owning a petrol or diesel car, which is crazy. I own one myself and plan to use it sensibly till it’s time to replace, after that I’ll go electric.
I get the same from EV owners. They get very defensive and regurgitate talking points. "There are charging points all over the place..." yet there is only 1 in my entire city and it is at a Volvo dealership of all places. "I charge it at home....easy" I live in an apartment complex....no charger there and I can not just plug it into the wall. It goes on and on. I will continue to drive my Prius until it makes practical sense to drive an EV.
@@LinuxMaster9 It's true. While I am for EV's, There are certainly 'Koolaid-drinkers' on both sides - I'm probably guilty of being one at times. I leased a Leaf 2yrs ago and I enjoyed the car and electric driving experience - enough to still want to buy one in the future when I can afford to. But I'm lucky enough to have a driveway. Charging infrastructure back then was rubbish and I hated using public chargers. I feel like its improving (but too slowly) So I didn't then, and still don't really recommend getting one to anyone who can't charge at home, not yet anyway.
@stephen300o6 I don't often listen to nonsense about men or women. I stumbled upon this and its too lightweight. But maybe its because I'm in construction and we don't pushy foot around.
Those 10 year old Nisan Leafs may have working batteries, but with significant degradation. The first generation Nissan Leafs suffered from faulty battery chemistry. The second and third generation Leafs, each have greater capacity batteries that do not suffer with the same chemistry problem.
Yes, but along came ‘leaf-gate’ (or whatever it was called). Nissan reduced the battery charging levels, particularly when the battery was getting too hot, in order to get over the lack of an active battery cooling system. Everyone has incorporated active battery temperature control for the traction battery now? Or is Nissan still selling Leafs without it?
@@oliver90owner As far as I know the Nissan Leaf still does not have active thermal battery management. It's just passive air flowing over the battery as the car moves. The same is true for its development stable partner the Renault Zoe. The newer Nissan Ariya does have active thermal battery management. Active thermal battery management seems to be the way to go. The problem with the Leaf was two fold. The first generation had defective battery chemistry and consecutive fast charging caused overheating without the active thermal battery management. That really only manifested itself on a long journey with multiple fast charging due to limited range. Not so much an issue with the latest Leaf that can do 200 miles at 70mph, as opposed to the 70 miles of the first generation.
@@grahamcook9289 Agreed. If the Leaf was only charged gently on an AC charger and used for short commuter miles, the battery would likely have fared a lot better. Unfortunately any longer journeys needed a fast charge (or two) and the battery temperature was allowed to go too high. I well remember batteries, from crashed cars, were favoured from Nordic areas, rather than a hot climate - when they were bought either as a replacement or stripped and re-configured for home battery storage.
Appreciate the effort that went into those points you raised, but I think the main point of the Guardian article was comparing a new EV with an existing (2nd-hand) ICE car. Important to bear that in mind and compare apples-to-apples.
@@dylanadams1455 Not if you think a new EV is "greener" than an older second hand car. A second hand car doesn't add anything new to the current pool of emissions, while a new EV does (tailpipe included or not). That's the point.
Totally agree with you, and if the article had stuck to those facts, it would be fine. The problem is the misinformation. I also don't think many people are looking to buy a brand new EV over a used ICE purely because of the desire to go green. Used cars are cheaper than new, obviously, but that's especially true of new EVs. I feel like few people are thinking "shall I spend 15k on a used Qashai or 50k on a Model Y".
@@shia_labeouf Agreed, not many people are planning to buy a new EV to go green for the sake of it. It's just the rhetoric that an EV is better for the environment in every way that needs explaining to say the least. As far as "misinformation" goes, well this is subjective if this was deliberate lies in my personal view. The unfortunate thing with life-cycle emissions analysis for example is the base assumptions define the result completely. Some of the debunkers for that Volvo analysis basically used a different set of assumptions, which in my view is not any better/worse. Just different. The correction around rare-earth metals in batteries was needed for sure, they are not used in batteries however they are critical in the electric motors. This fact is not mentioned in the above video, why? Rowan's excellent point of consumer culture being the biggest problem was not discussed here in this video either, why?
I don't know if you guys have noticed this, but _The_ _Guardian_ has had something of a vendetta against EVs going on for some time now. I have written to the editors about this -- to no avail. Time to dump the subscription? What are the alternatives? The NYT is no better in this respect. Why do liberal newspapers have to be so smarter-than-thou?
Can you comment on the latest BBC panorama programme about the country being ready for EVs or not? I watched it & it was so biased against them, to the point where the presenter was seen mostly driving through the most remote parts of the country in VW electric camper van, totally unrepresentative of most drivers journeys, which are typically up to 30 miles a day at most. Not once did they mention how good the Tesla supercharger network is, or the introduction of LFP batteries that can be charged to 100% consistently. Would like to hear your take on this.
As Robert says on Fully Charged show him a gallon of recycled diesel or petrol. The Tesla CTO, former, who started Redwood Materials is JB Straubel who is back on the board of Tesla but isn't the CTO anymore. Don't forget even driving on the dirtiest coal grid is still cleaner than Petrol/Diesel vehicles as those vehicles get worse as their life goes on whereas EV's get cleaner. A Model 3 owner in Guelph Ontario drives his car with original battery, brakes and motors and has over 600,000km on it and his battery SoH is 75% and he still gets about 350km range which is still fine.
@@coolworx All about charging infrastructure. As both Kyle(Out of spec) & Tom(State of Charge) have stated on their weekly podcast with Martyn & Dom. Why haul a huge battery around, the future won't be 500kWh batteries that weigh as much as 2 Hummers it will be small batteries with fast charging capabilities and ubiquitous charging infrastructure as common as service stations are. There will be a sweet spot for battery size and possibly 800v architecture similar to the eGMP cars able to charge quickly to get on the move.
@@coolworx Well there must be service stations now. It's not a pipe dream at all. I can imagine 100yrs ago your ancestors would be saying the same of early fossil cars when they were transitioning from horse and carriage. Never mind the fact that there as EV's 100yrs ago as well. Baker Electric, we could all be driving EV's now if fossil fuels weren't found. This transition is only 10yrs in, remember the fossil fuels won't last forever and we need them for FAR more than burning in an inefficient engine.
@@TassieEV Just the amount of minerals needed to make batteries that only last 10 years, will destroy whats left of the environment. You should check out Simon Michaux.
I think the real question is how much of the original article was edited before print, not written by Rowen Atkinson but adjusted to be skewed toward Pro oil views. But you where right to fact check and put the correct info out there . 👍
All three of you could only dream of having the gravitas, intellect and stature of Rowan Atkinson. And you've defeated a lot of your own arguments. Came across like a midmorning woman's chat show. I do enjoy your "housewife's perspective" car reviews but you should stick to that
@@robhills2613 actually maybe - but more right than wrong. And the counter arguments put in this video were hardly scientific.. "oh I looked on Autotrader and found 77 electric cars over 10 years old" tells you nothing about the condition of the batteries in those cars, whether they had been replaced, etc. Or indeed how representative that is of 10 year old cars in general, electric or otherwise You can't counter scientific arguments with a few anecdotes.
ICE car batteries only last 3-5 years in my experience, and then don't do anything else as far as I know. So ten years for an EV battery before it goes on to however many years in other work seems great.
@@paulholterhaus7084 FC id commenting on batteries, not vehicles. Lead acid batteries are very recyclable, mind. 95% plus is likely (let’s forget the extra water people fill into the cells, if possible, and just consider the water in normal modern sealed lead acid batteries. BUT, those lead acid batteries could (and are) being changed to Lithium ion batteries. Some (not car manufacturers yet) have added capacitors to aid starting power (so that a smaller lead acid battery can be employed) and Tesla have likely already changed to Lithium ion for the low voltage battery for all their new vehicles. edit: Oops, meant small Lithium battery plus capacitors, not ‘lead acid’. Lithium ion cells do not discharge at sufficient rate for starter motors
Actually, EVs have more problems with their 12v battery than with their high-powered battery. In fact, the AA says it's one of the commonest problems encountered for EV breakdowns.
My traction battery on my lexus hybrid failed after 13 years and a year out of warranty, it cost a lot to replace it of course, im still not convinced with EV car batteries especially when buying out of warranty.
That is because people are not aware of how that battery has been charged. If charged ‘gently’ to only 80% and not often used to below 20%, it will likely be good. If constantly charged on high power (DC) chargers to close to 100% every day and used to a very low charge level before recharging, it will not last as long. The charging/discharging history is recorded in the depths of the car history records. Leased cars, returned to the leasing company after the contract period are more likely to have had their battery stressed as described above.
There are numerous phone apps that can check the traction battery's health via a Bluetooth dongle plugged into the OBDII port, so it is possible to assess before buying.
That's just it, I thought I was the only one watching this constant googled garbage. Its amazing how they think they are experts on everything green, the truth is nothing is green ev or ice are all damaging the planet and our constant greed for more will only increase! Until we run out of everything. Who thinks you can make anything without impacting the planet? I guess you can build everything with magic electrons though😂😂.
Bit of a war in the media going on with EVs . Honestly most people don't care about the environment as much as you might think, Bottom line is affordability, most people will drive whatever is cheapest as long as it gets the job done. If both were equal it would be very interesting to see which wins.
Well currently MG seem to have a monopoly on anything remotely affordable. Seems like the companies selling EVs are making things much worse with those drastic price increases.
@@neiltaylor513 most lithium mining is done through quarrying but some is done threw evaporation which can be quite damaging. Mining and exploration will always continue when it comes to fossil fuels.
@@londonyes1380 I think we have seen the quarry mines in tropical areas with total destruction. I like EVs, but this holler then thou that some have whilst ignoring this destructions turns me off.
@@neiltaylor513 exactly, , saving the environment mayl actually require sacrifice IE giving up our cars and improving public transport etc. I'm out in the sticks in Yorkshire and the situation is pretty dire, busy pot holes roads, woefully inadequate and expensive buses etc , The answer is not ev to hats just a side step and pretty bad one.
75 Nissan Leafs... and what evidence did you find that the batteries are actually usable? Did the sellers provide range evidence for the state of their 10yo cars? Have the batteries been fully and independently verified that they are maintaining 50%? 80%? Or are you just stating "they work you just won't make it as far as the end of your driveway"? Facts can be manipulated both ways. I am disappointed that instead of debunking with facts, you are throwing out emotions and 5min Internet checks, presenting these as evidence. I'm in the process of buting a used EV, and I HAVE done my research.
Thanks! But one huge mistake. A cars footprint is not just Co-2. A combustion engine emits lots of toxic stuff. People die from it. So that should be factored in.
I think that's the more important thing. Even if someone doesn't buy the Co2 argument they cant dismiss the concerns about what else comes out and that it is proximity to those other emissions when they are emitted that's the danger factor.
Thanks for the great content! Fact checking you guys on something you said regarding Green electricity tariffs. There still seems to be some misunderstanding out there, which I feel you added to (16m30s) regarding the electricity a household uses if they are on a green tariff. Being on a green tariff does not mean you are using 100% green electricity. Usage is whatever the mix is for the national grid, regardless of what tariff you are on. Hence for a personal or household offset calculation, we still need to factor in usage times so that usage is when CO2 from the grid mix is at its lowest. Yes the electricity you used is backed up by your supplier feeding in an equivalent amount of 100% green electricity to the grid, and that's a good thing, but it doesn't mean you can use all your consumption as a household as a carbon offset calculation. The NG ESO app is a good source of real-time and other data on the mix of grid electricity.
The only thing I actually took away from the article is that Mr Bean is a Tory right winger who more than likely has a vested interest in hydrogen/e-fuel companies and hence why he was trying to push them.
Volvo talked about their own ev carbon use and not the ev market. They als talked anoit this in 2009, or at least that's when it was shown in the daily mail
According to an article in Reuters yesterday, China now produces 50.9% of its electricity from non-fossil fuel sources, wind, solar, and hydro, so carbon payback is improving there also. Apparently in 2021 China set a goal of producing half their electricity from renewables by 2025, so are 2 years ahead of that goal 😊
Batteries are consumables full stop. The full cycle discharge numbers are a proxy for the finite life span. The "years of life" issues you go on about make a number of assumptions just like Atkinson's assertions. As for the channel, perhaps follow the money is the best model. You lost me at 20:00.
Amazing that people would accept articles that clearly are not designed to inform - but do mislead. Thank you for your work. We need to reinstate truth as an essential part of all communication.
If people are full-blown ICE fans ("they cannot take my V8/V6 away!"), they might just welcome bad news about their "opponent" without questioning the details ...
and the range for driving of these leaf batteries was on average ?? i wouldnt call a ICE car battery with a third of a charge fit for purpose, would it start a car ?
Second life for EV batteries is also an unsubstantiated claim. I know that these batteries are not going into landfill. That is very clear. However, thus far, utility companies have NO tolerance for used EV batteries with no significant warranty or understood expectation of prior abuse to use on the grid. Please ask utility companies if they are doing this. They are not. I work with the people running these agencies and it's not happening. This was anecdotal information, shared about individuals who have chosen to try to pull off energy arbitrage with storage crates full of Leaf packs, given press on day one with no followup about the actual contribution of these batteries to substantially address renewable energy transience. We all WANT that to be happening. But I can assure you thus far it has been pilot programs and individuals "trying it out". This means the majority of EV batteries, unless something changes significantly, will be recycled far sooner than when they actually cannot operate as batteries any longer. The real shame here is, that currently, no manufacturer had designed EV batteries to be serviceable at the call level. Even when a manufacturer tried to service a pack at the module level, they find themselves at the mercy of sorting/sourcing similar mileage/age packs to rob Peter to Pay Paul and reassemble a pack with similar vintage modules to assure balance & performance parity. Electrifying could be bringing these challenges to forefront and making them visible, thus improving the sustainability of EVs. If we let the public believe in half-truths about 2nd life or battery longevity, we're doing a disservice by not forcing the EV companies to do better. True or false, you can service a BMW i3 battery pack at a dealership. True, but they can only repair to the module level, not the cell level. The software needed to assess and reset the battery computers costs $10,000 so independent shops cannot, will not do this. But BMW is the good example. Tesla only give the option of complete battery replacement with new for $20,000 if you are off warranty or refurbished battery with all used modules if you are still in warranty. That work cannot be done locally. It has to go back to factory. Teslas's new structural packs are disposable design, all potted together, with no option to repair. One and done if a single cell fails and it brings down the whole pack. Please ask Gruber about this. It's a real problem with EV design that could/should be addressed.
Nissan and Renault have been repurposing their disused EV batteries into home batteries for at least 5 years to my knowledge. Used Tesla batteries can fetch as much as £1,230 in the UK for a single module to be used in the EV conversion industry. Demand is huge. Even a 24kWh Nissan Leaf battery at 30% degradation holds more than 16kWh of electricity, enough to run a house for up to 2 days.
With so many evs , which also means so many batteries connected to the grid at any point , we will be able to harness the power of lightning in the future.
Another point of Atkinson's article is of frightfully bad faith: that people now tend to sell their cars after 3 years, leading to an awful waste of resources. But ignored is the fact that those cars may change owner, but are definitely not scrapped, and will probably last double the time an ICE car would, just in the hands of several successive owners.
Regardless of the payback time. No emmisions is massive plus for the local area air quality. Even if electric cars were just as bad as ICE ones. Moving the emissions away from people is reason alonento adopt them.
I once asked why The Media are so anti-EV and pro Gas Guzzlers. I was told that Musk rarely pays for Advertising. General Motors spends Three Billion Dollars U.S. each year to advertise. If you owned a Newspaper, who would you support? Is that true?
Most car parks in the UK should never have been built in the first place. Pulling them down for a rebuild seems like a no-brainer. Cover them with solar panels too.
often old batteries are only a few cells are degraded and will be a big industry repairing batteries- Cleverly motors have done some taxis with high mileage
Other errors in Mr. Bean's article: 1. Most EV manufacturers are going with LiFePo4 batteries, without "precious metals" such as Cobalt and Nickel. 2. Hydrogen cars are NOT lighter than EVs, as Mr. Bean tried to suggest. Toyota Mirai (hydrogen car) has about the same weight and comparable range as a Tesla Model 3 (electric car). 3. Due to physical laws, green hydrogen production requires a lot of energy. Considering all the inefficiencies, a battery electric car can travel 3 to 5 times more miles than a hydrogen car for a given amount of green electricity. So we will need three times more generation capacity to travel the same number of miles. For synthetic fuels, the situation is even worse (5 - 7 times more miles with a battery EV than with a combustion engine running on e-fuel). 4. Combustion of synthetic fuels may be CO2-neutral but it still generates toxic pollutants.
actually, not a good example. The Zoe and Leaf both run air cooled batteries, so the degradation is actually significantly greater than with liquid-cooled batteries, which are found on literally everything else.
Just a note on the 'carbon payback' calculations - a lot of the graphs/calculations that are shown/quoted do not take into account the carbon emissions for actually getting the petrol/diesel to the pumps in the first place - so the payback for EV's is most probably quicker than stated (although I don't know if they did or didn't for the figures that you're quoting here). After digging around, I did eventually find some information on a study that was conducted to work this out - the figures they quoted were that for the carbon emissions for just burning the fuel in your car (which is all that's normally taken into account), you should add approx 30% on top to account for everything involved in the production and delivery of the fuel to the petrol station forecourts.
You make some good points and it seems inevitable that EV's will become the norm, however current prices for anything that you might actually want to drive are very expensive compared to their equivalent petrol/diesel counterparts. I wonder whether there will ever be a "classic" EV like the 50+ years petrol motors that are still around today. It will also depend on how much progress can be made with hydrogen and/or biofuels. They get very little coverage because the whole brainwashing machine is towards electric. Hasn't Europe just put back stopping the sale of conventionally powered cars by 5 years? Rowan isn't the only one debunking EV's just one of the most well known.
Yes, money is tight at the moment, but the total cost of ownership of an EV is lower than that of a similar size ICE vehicle. Prices have dropped in the used EV market, having now normalised and a better supply of used EVs available. They are still more expensive than a used ICE vehicle, but I do most of my journeys at 2p per mile in a Tesla Model 3.
Rowan may be the most well-known, but he is also, like many other EV sceptics, misinformed. The Volvo report was extremely misleading as there is no set amount of CO2e for EV battery production as there are numerous variables. For example, according to M.I.T. an 80kWh battery for a Tesla Model 3 can produce between 2.4 tonnes of CO2e and 16 tonnes depending on the manufacturing processes. That's a huge range. Volvo stated their EV models produced 70% more emissions than the same ICE variant, but even if that were true, the carbon payback also varied depending on how clean the electricity used to charge the vehicle is. Going by UK figures for average mpg of petrol and diesel cars and the average CO2 produced per kWh of electricity, a petrol car produces 346.4% more CO2e and a diesel 332.6% more CO2e. That is using an average of 333Wh of electricity per mile. For every 10k miles driven, a diesel or petrol car will produce more than 2 tonnes more CO2e than an EV, plus numerous other gases creating more air pollution and premature death.
I drive a 63 reg Renault Zoe which is almost ten years old and still has 97% battery state of health. So it is going to be many more miles before the battery will be of no further use.
The BMW factory that built the i3 reportedly generates more electricity than it uses, selling the surplus to a nearby VW plant. The electricity is generated by some very large wind turbines and arrays of solar PV panels. As more car manufacturers follow suit and generate green electricity on-site, the weaker the argument about energy used in manufacturing becomes. If all the energy used in manufacturing is renewable then the mileage required to offset the environmental cost of manufacturing is very small.
I think this all steams from being an early adopter, in the short space of time EVs have been on the market they have improved massively. The downside is that early experience is likely to negatively skew your opinion. Which is probably where Rowan's beef generally comes from. But lets face it 2030 is coming and with more and more EV choice coming onto the market in the UK, it will be a viable option for many.
When you say Nissan leaf with perfectly good batteries. You failed to say what this means do they have 95% health or 60 or 70% as some owners seem to to saying? To fact check properly, you need to provide figures and evidence. Yes, technically, they are not rare earth metals, but they aren't clean or common. The way they are extracted leaves a lot to be desired. Child labour is never good. You may be able to recycle an EV battery, but the cost to replace that battery will not be economical, probably writing the vehicle off. I have an EV and when it is time to change, I will be going back to an ICE car. The purchase cost of my EV was frightening, depreciation is horrendous, the insurance has become extortionate, public charging is more expensive per mile than a petrol (especially in winter) and my battery is not at full health after just 2 and a half years and just 15,000 miles. Oh, and my last service was more expensive than my last ICE cars equivalent service. Don't get me started on the range during the winter - that is based on actual experience, not something a bloke told me down the pub! I think Toyota are on the right track with ICE cars powered by ammonia.
Nothing Rowan Atkinson said was anti-EV, he was suggesting their shortfalls, possible alternatives and solutions to these problems. The fact that EV's are expensive, the batteries do not last for particularly long for regular car users, limited range and length of charge time are genuine problems that either need wide-spread infrastructure change or a rethink to how electricity could be delivered to vehicles or potentially using synthetic carbon-neutral fuels. Simply having rose-tinted glasses on about these problems and nit-picking things like extended warranties does nothing to address these problems
We all know that batteries are the weakest link with regards to electric cars at present. Too heavy, not energy dense enough, using very valuable minerals. And limited recycling facilities. This is just what happens in life. Technology constantly improves and replaces what went before and this shouldn’t be seen as a problem otherwise we wouldn’t have any transport solution other than our legs!
Batteries are improving rapidly. And there is no shortage in recycling facilities. There is only a shortage in run down batteries, because these bastards just refuse to die😅
All of the points you mentioned, are likely to be addressed or sorted within the next 3 years, once solid state battery technology takes over. This will mean physically smaller, lighter battery packs with greater energy density ( meaning more range) and faster charging than we see now......
@@Brian-om2hh Won’t be in 3 years. There might be a breakthrough that means we can technically produce solid state that is more dense and last a long time but to then see them in volume production will be many years after that. Tesla won’t even have their Gen 3 cars out until late 2024. It won’t be until another generation after that we’ll see a step change in EV’s and that is likely to another 5 years from then so close to 2030. You need to factor in the time from technical feasibility to prototyping, production, launch and ramping to volume.
@@ISuperTed Sorry to burst your bubble, but CATL has already launched its "Condensed Matter" battery. Up to 500Wh/kg and cheaper than current Lithium Ion batteries. They go into production before the end of the year, and will probably pretty much take over within 2. BYD and Samsung both have similar tech ready to launch (apparently). BTW, with the amount that is going into research, I expect 1000Wh/kg to be production ready before ICEs are finally banned in 2035.
A lot of retired peeps buy electric cars, since they can afford them, but they do little mileage. Need to get electric cars into hands of high mileage peeps
I think the latest FUD I have seen is: EV's are twice as bad at causing pot holes in our roads. Nothing to do with the huge delivery vans or trucks or articulated lorries. And we never had pot holes before EV's apparently. Discuss please. Thanks
Great job! Could you share your sources so we can reuse them? In particuler the 13500 miles for a tesla model 3 to pay back its added CO2 manufacturing costs. Thanks!
It’s comedy gold going back to read his column, then reading all the Guardian corrections underneath it, then reading the Guardian asking for £2 per month 🤣 yeah, no thanks 🥴
To be fair the guardian even ran their own article fact checking and disputing Rowan's article quite early on. I guess this is one of those issues about whether 'comment pieces' should be fact checked or even published at all
Rare earth metals are not a category in the periodic table. And metals such as Lithium, Cobalt, Indium, Tantalum, Niobium and others are considered to be rare metals .. at least by an article from MIT on the future of strategic natural resources I read recently and other geological articles it referenced. and those metals are used in electric car batters or in the cars computer system, or other areas of the car.. some of the metals are used in cars gasoline powered cars as well. Saying that the newer generation of EV batteries could be expected to last 15 to 20 years is probably accurate. However most EV car manufacturers only warranty them either 8 or 10 years. Lifetime is going to depend on how you drive, where you drive, how many times you charge and the method of charging and other factors. The batteries do lose some of their capacity as they go so while a 15 year old car may have a battery that still works it may have lost a significant portion of its its charge capacity. One issue of concern is alot of manufacturers are not transferring battery warranty, so the used market for EVs is risky. The 13.500 miles for the tesla x before the carbon payback as they termed it.. That is basing it on ideal conditions where the electricity is being produced by the cleanest source which is certainly not the average. Also to mention the EPA in a study from just a few months ago testing efficiency, internal combustion cars were getting 4% better fuel efficiency than the manufacturers rated them at at electric vehicles tested had a 12.5% lower range than mfgs claimed. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle. not as gloomy a picture as Mr Atkinson paints it and not as rosy.. at least not yet.. as presented here.
A couple of points. 1. The term "rare earth" is misleading as these metals' availability is rare in comparison to abundant metals like iron, aluminium, zinc, and copper. 2. No product carries a warranty for the whole of its expected lifetime, which is the same for EV batteries. Most companies give 8 year warranties or 100k miles 3. Yes, different conditions can affect a vehicle battery's longevity and emissions, but that applies to all vehicles, including ICE 4. Commonly, comparisons between the emissions of an ICE vehicle and an EV the total emissions of fuel production are ignored. I don't know if that was the case in the research you mentioned. 5. Battery manufacturers have many years of experience, and I would suggest that battery lifespans are what is claimed. In fact, the lifespan of batteries was underestimated initially and has been found to last a lot longer than first thought. Lastly, even at 50% of the original capacity, an EV battery has other uses, and modern recycling methods are retrieving up to 95% of the materials used during manufacturing.
As for comparing production, it makes a huge difference where a car is made. A Romanian Dacia Duster will have a different carbon footprint compared to a VW T-Roc made in Wolfsburg and again will have a different carbon footprint to a Tesla M3 built at the Gigafactory which is powered by solar and wind. I'd argue without having researched that the Tesla Model 3 has the lowest carbon footprint even before it has driven a mile. Also the carbon footprint comparisons don't take into account where and how the oil has been sourced, they only look at the CO2 which comes out at the tailpipe, ignoring that UK refineries alone take about 5TWh of electricity / year and a typical oil platform burns 25m3 of unrefined diesel / day ... Also I doubt these studies include oil filters, fuel filters, engine oil and much higher wear on brake pads etc.
Most discussions today will (rightly) be about batteries. The rest of what has become EV technology has been around for decades--although mostly in plugged or wired version. Electric trains, trams, as well as small independent golf carts.
That made an exciting change, I enjoyed the conversation. Dear Mr Bean, Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned....or to put it another way...your now pulped!
Batteries may last longer than 10 years, but how much of their capacity do they retain after 10 years of charge/discharge cycles? Maybe half? So a 100 mile range of a new Leaf is maybe 50 miles after 10 years.
Is this fact-checking because his opinion is not valid, or that you need to keep the EV car manufacturers sweet to keep your channel profitable. EV charging is still difficult in parts of the UK. EVs are too expensive, and batteries will degrade over 10 years making the secondhand value poor, recycling batteries is very dangerous and need specialist plants to do it. If your batteries go on fire ask the Fire Service how difficult it is to put it out. What about the waste caused by the increased tyre wear. Really think you are just protecting your jobs and your channel.
Wrong, and I have done a great deal of fact-checking. Anywhere there is a 13amp outlet, you can charge an electric car. There are 43k public chargers at 26k locations around the UK, providing a total of 65k charge outlets. Battery degradation is very small unless the vehicle has been abused by continuous rapid charging for example. You can expect 1-1.6% a year under normal driving. Yes, battery fires are more difficult to extinguish but are 60 times less likely to catch fire than an ICE vehicle. EVs are heavier than their ICE counterparts, but that has minimal effect on tyre wear. I personally know a Tesla Model S owner who got 60k miles out of his first set of tyres, and at 80k miles, the car still had its original brake pads. Driving style has a greater effect on tyre wear than weight. There are also plenty of ICE SUVs on the roads of the UK that are heavier than most EVs. Li-ion battery recycling is a growing and profitable industry and can now recycle up to 95% of battery materials safely.
Dear ladies, I enjoyed your comments as a reaction of all the negative media news about EV's. Yeas it is AJAX (the Arena) which uses Nissan Leaf batteries as a power back-up. And yes I already owe a Tesla model S P85 since 2/2014 (10 years already) , I do have my own solar panels eversince and added an extra 4 kWh peak to it in 2022. I also have free supercharging at Tesla (for life) , driving an EV is really a cheap adventure. My car's consumption is 16,5 kWh / 100 km's and I only use my car when there is no snow/salt on the road. It is all about who is sponsoring who to bring out negative news about EV's. As said I enjoyed your expertise, please go on with it ! Thanks
I hate to say it but he has a point with some of what said because EVs are far too expensive both to buy and insure plus the infrastructure especially over where I live in Northern Ireland is rubbish so really I don't think EVs are necessarily the whole future in so far as it's actually kinder for the planet to keep your current car than to switch straight away to EV.
The average European driver will break even on carbon emissions for making an EV in two years of driving vs keeping an ICE-car, so no, keeping your old ICE is not actually "kinder" to the planet unless you stop driving entirely in two years time.
With regard to EVs being greener that ICE vehicles within a year of average driving, Mr Bean was claiming that it's better to keep hold of old bangers, than to trade them in for an EV. But these old bangers are way more polluting than a new car, so the EV will 'overtake' these cars much faster. I suppose he could have (but didn't) argued that the old banger might not be scrapped, so the EV's carbon footprint is on top of the old car's pollution. Strange that he focused on not buying EVs and not on not buying new cars, if I remember correctly. Toyota will thank him.
15 years should not be the expected lifespan of a vehicle that cost that amount of co2 to produce. The issue in this world is pre mature obsolescence and in general a throw away attitude towards all goods produced. It is always going to be more environmentally friendly to keep the thing you have than replace with new. The majority of new cars are lease deals which after three years can be replaced with a brand new car. It's a green fallacy
That Mr Bean piece irritated me at the time. I read the original and didn't know it had been updated 5 times withing a couple of weeks. The Guardian did do a fact check piece a couple of weeks later, but that's almost pointless. The people who run with this are generally anti-EV, loved the piece being in the 'lefty, PC' Guardian and aren't interested in any fact checks or corrections.
So.......if I do 5 - 6 times the average mileage as a business driver.......will my battery be well past its best and underperforming after 3 or 4 years??
One interesting way to debunk this was Martin veicha from tesla ir. Take the weight of your ev, then take the weight of your gas guzzler&all the fuel it'll burn over its lifetime. Here in the U.S. an average car is just over 4,040# and a sedan like the model 3 gets maybe 25mpg lifetime. Supposedly we can get up to 17 years and over 200,000 miles out of it? I'd shudder to see the maintenance bill if you kept it that long myself. Anyway 200,000 miles at 25mpg=8,000 ish gallons of gas burned at 6# per gallon ad's up to an additional 48,000# of fuel alone consumed. Fuel which has to be extracted causing emissions and pollution, plus using up water and other chemicals at just the drill rig site. Those drill rigs aren't used for anything else either, so what about the emissions to make them? Transport them into place, run them etc? Then it must be transported most often by a big ole oil tanker burning dirty dangerous bunker fuel, stored in tanks dockside. Transported again to the refinery, stored again. Processed into useable petroleum products using more energy and water, plus creating more pollution at every step of the way. Then pumped through a pipeline using massive electric motors, pumped into trucks or trains. Transported again using even more energy&creating some more particulate matter pollution, stored in tanks that leak into local water sources. Before finally being pumped into a gassers tank using more electrical energy. Where it is burned from a well-wheels efficiency of less than 25% Let's ignore all the oil spills to just for making those darn evs look more evil. 😁 That also doesn't count exh parts like catalytic converters being replaced that burn out or clog(I ran a service shop this happens a LOT on modern cars stuck in stop n go traffic or driven in short cycles)those cats which use platinum metals in them&are stolen because of that. It doesn't inc air filters evs don't have which get replaced every 10-15,000 miles in ice and are dumped by the hundreds of millions into landfills. It doesn't inc the oil changes done every 5,000 mile or so at 5 quarts apiece plus the oil filter made of steel being dumped in a landfill more often than not. It doesn't inc any additional fluid flushes or filters for the trans or even all the services ice vehicle's require that most evs do NOT. So with the grid getting more sustainable and efficient every year now. How can any person capable of clear logical thought believe an ev could be worse sustainability wise or for the environment itself is beyond me. And I am not someone whose in the general ev targeted male market either. Rather I'd like to see the cards all laid out and the spades clearly called spades. 😎👍🏻
You knitting forum don't know how to fact check, because you can't even get the parameters right. Rowan's statement they only last 10 years is correct, and having a few examples of older EVs for sale with perfectly good batteries does not alter that. Firstly, Rowan didn't stipulate that no EV could run on an older battery. Generalisations are allowed. In the main, an EV battery is considered kaput if it reduces range by 20% or more, yet others could see a 75% remaining range as perfectly good. A minority will claim it's still lasting, while the majority say it's time to replace it and make a house battery of it. And 100 perfectly good old batteries in the for sale columns isn't much to crow about if there are 10,000 old cars with about six thousand that have had replcement batteries already, and the others having all gone to the wrecking yards. There is too little information in your so-called 'facts' to be very wary of the adage "lies, damn lies and statistics" being used. I hope you haven't begun with your trump card? Knit me a jumper, ladies.
Just to add a bit of structural engineering context to the issue of overloaded car parks: Category F Design imposed loading on car park structures = 2.5 kPa (Ref EN 1991-1-1 or BS 6399-1). Typical car parking space dimensions 2.4m x 4.8m. Therefore design imposed load per car park space = 2.5 x 2.4 x 4.8 kN = 28.8kN or 2935kg. So until the average weight of cars exceeds approximately 2.9te (no matter the fuel type) then car park structures should generally remain quite happy to support your car without too much stress!
If enough people in Britain starts driving the new humvee or heaven help us the tesla truck the solution parking stations would have worked be to mark out larger parking bays, to bring the pressure to within specifications. And obviously charge extra for the privilege. Not ban the cars from the stations. I doubt enough people in Britain is going to buy such cars though, they will not fit on most side roads.
The fact that many ICE based cars are getting heavier, while electric cars will get lighter as battery energy is improved and in the case of Tesla the use of Gigapress to reduce material.
There are already cautions in the UK over some heavy ICE SUVs being over a car driver's licence limit of 3.5 tons if the vehicle is fully laden with passengers and their luggage.
@@francesconicoletti2547 To be fair, I doubt they will fit in said car parks anyway. 😁
What about the car parks built before 1991?
Uhhhggg. This is starting out poorly, folks. You don't debunk a statement about batteries lasting 10 years by googling Leafs that ARE still for sale and noting that THOSE cars have working batteries. A) if a 10-11 year old Leaf has a failed battery, you're not going to see it listed for sale. It's in the scrapper/wrecker/auction. B) many Leafs that did have a failed battery have had to have their batteries replaced, so perusing Leafs for sale and not enquiring about all of them having original batteries or the battery SOH is lazy, and not scientific. Point Atkinson, not you, but you could have found a better argument for your point.
Children are dying for these fucking batteries and these Witches are being paid by some child-murdering company to hide the elephant in the room.
The Nissan Leaf batteries mainly failed due to lack of cooling of the batteries. This problem is basically solved in more advanced BEVs.
There's so many people spreading wrong information cos they haven't bothered to educate themselves.
I appreciate conversations like this.
Because people have an agenda. And push what they like, and cherry pick facts.
Lobbyists get paid for doing it. Most are not capable of sorting out the wheat from the chaff. And yes some just have an agenda - either because they don’t like the change or are conspiracy pushers. The oil companies all have an agenda, of course.
@@leftcoaster67as this channel also has to do? Agenda pushing works both ways
The sad truth is that sensationalism sells. How many people who believed and are spreading the Atkinson article are going to watch this? A competing article that covers the materiel they talk about here would simply not sell papers (or drive clicks) because the truth is boring.
EVs will get cleaner each year and they can also be used to balance the grid- ie power transfered each way
Where is all the Lithium and Copper coming from to EV every car and truck on the planet.
@@davidlewis4399what about the hundreds of thousands of vapes people are throwing on the floor every day?
@@davidlewis4399 🤣🤣🤣
What a load of Bull.....
Do you seriously think anyone is going to donate to the grid with their EV?
Why don’t you invite Rowan Atkinson to come and discuss this with you on camera. Could be really interesting to see his response to the rebuttals of his article.
Yeah he won't show up firstly he is a baf00n secondly he has nothing to bring to the table thats worth our time.
@@渡海-q2wjust like ev propaganda
It’d be good that, a lot of people who keep going "bean" they seem to forget his scientific background
I own a 2014 Tesla model S 85 with 72,000 miles on the clock and a battery which is currently at 92% according to my local Tesla dealership (I asked them to carry out a diagnostic last month). I have a friend who owns a similar age car, with 120,000 miles, and HIS battery is still over 90% !
Oh goody.. you must be happy.... so would I given you are going to be up for near $30K for a new battery...... enjoy when that happens
It’s generally known that a Tesla battery will last 120,000 miles. So good luck replacing it after then as there’s no way round a fault code one day you start the car up the fault code pings up and there’s no moving the car until you shell out £15,000.
@@alfie217 It’s getting cheaper on a daily basis. The guy who sold me my Model S now works on them… including reconditioning existing batteries. He reckons he could bring my battery up to 100% for as little as $2,000.
Another company will replace my existing battery (with a 90 kWh one) for around $7,000, as long as they get the original one to then recondition.
Well done ⚡ team. As a petrol head & X racing driver I have to accept change and facts ref the planet. So should Mr Bean. Yes I miss engine sound, currently enjoying my new EV though.
Good for you. Any affection for the noise and smell of an engine (something I have enjoyed in the past too) is when you think about it...childish.
@@a07z Yes, I miss these things too - The smells more than the noise, because lets face it, anyone who's lived with a sports exhaust on a day-to-day basis knows, it gets old real quick and hardly anything with less than 8 cylinders really sounds that good anyway. Most of the people complaining have never had anything other than a 4 cylinder generic buzz box. The rest of us know, it's not childish, it's just in the past. I'm never going back; the smells & sounds are just not worth the accompanying dial-up throttle response and abusive relationship with the petrochemical industry! 😆
I think that there is too much wrong information on the internet with the aim of dissuading people from ev, and we know who supports them. Especially for batteries. Batteries are so valuable at the moment that a battery with 60-70% capacity of 50kw is sold for 5000 euros here in Croatia and you can find a buyer right away. The second life battery is a very popular commodity currently on the market that even the big car companies have joined it. So if, for example, the EV was damaged in a collision and the battery was not damaged, do not give up on it, because you can get a substantial amount for the battery..
Mate Rimac is my hero 😊
I can never understand so many negative comments about going electric, the main reason should be is air quality, the major air polluter are vehicles that run on fossel fuels, if you live in the city or large urban areas just look up in the sky the red you can see is nitrogen oxides , this is major air quality pollution which reduces life expectancy. we have on average 18 percent oxygen in the atmosphere, The argument should not be how long a electric vehicle gets into the emission positive before the ICE engines but the air we breathe now to make a cleaner environment .
You had me at "all of them with perfectly good batteries it working order". It was so pathetically stupid statement (no wonder, considering the quality of "research" that was done here) that it was no point to watch the video any further.
OMG as an engineer I would agree with Rowan completely, denying physics is a fools game. Beside Rowan also own an EV or two beside many petrol cars, his views are quite balanced.
The rare earths are used in the motor drive and the extensive amount of electronics, and maybe some is in the battery chemistry too, the precise chemistry details are not going to be public.
As for post life as battery backup for the grid, thats all well and good, but storing energy in chemistry form is 1000s times cheaper than electrical energy will ever be and that be physics.
Storing energy in nuclear form ie mining uranium as late as possible is millions of times cheaper than even chemical energy storage. Trying to store more than 1% of electrical grid energy per day is a fools errand too.
As for construction of course EVs have a much higher embedded energy cost, it's as if the odometer has 50 to 200 thousand miles on the odometer at the point of sale. Ofcourse the post manufacture has a much higher carbon slope for gas than electric. Now some of the fancy expensive EVs use Aluminium instead of steel, the embedded energy of Al vs Fe is 6 times so those high end cars with Al chassis will never pay back. The best EVs are going to be compact and or taxi shared use cars which would payback very quickly. The very high end electric cars are vanity pieces that will smother the carbon savings of smaller EVs that use the least amount embeddedenergy or rare metals. Beside Li ion batteries could well be replaced by the very similar Sodium ion cells which can even be made on the same lines, much cheaper to make (in the future with scaling), Na is 1000x more common than Li, but the range is a bit less and much lower fire risk. CATL.
The issue with parking lots car park has more to do with imagined fire hazard, an EV fire is orders more difficult to put out than the ICE fires, and there have been some spectacular ship fires that were loaded up with EVs and Ice cars. And the BYD car fires in China are ubiqitous on RUclips, I refer to those as Burn Yourself to Death cars, would never take that brand.
However it does seem as if the fossil fuel industry is backing a hugely massive campaign to push anti EV talking points, and repeating the same point endlessly out of context, it is those videos the hosts should be taking issue with. Most of those videos are coming from petrol heads.
Chemistry details are public, zero Cobolt. The well known RUclips anti china channel shows images of petrol and hybrid fires and calls them all EVs. ( in china a model can be made in ev hybrid and ice and be difficult to identity) There have only been approx 600 battery runaway fires worldwide from 2010 according to EVfiresafe. BYD ‘s blade LFP battery is regarded has having the best safety record. Maybe one or two (disputed) incidents in China. Following the ship fires (where EVs were not the cause) EU funded a marine body to research risks associated with roll on roll off vessels. They produced an advice sheet which debunks the FUD. Fuel load is similar in ice and Bev they point out. In respect to grid battery storage your view is that chasing 1% is a fools errand yet millions are being made in both supplying and operating grid batteries (peak and arbitrage) battery packs are reducing in price and grid storage doubled last year in USA.
On the subject of 10 year old batteries, you say they are perfectly good, but EV batteries still degrade at an average rate of 2.3% a year even with the complex management systems. So an EV battery may only be 75% effective after 10 years. Current figures suggest that a EV battery life expectancy may even be 15 to 20 years but the range will be significantly reduced.
That's fine but 75% effective is very different to 0% effective which is what "a lifespan of 10 years" implies.
Where do you get the 2.3% battery degradation from?
@@nigelrowe2204 quote "EV batteries degrade at an average of 2.3% per year, according to a study of 6,300 EVs by Geotab."
Well said ladies. Rowan won’t have done any research on this other than superficially so I feel a little sorry for him. Of course the anti-EV Daily Mail/Express/Telegraph brigade have jumped on this with the usual press ‘told you so’ but anyone with half a brain will find out the facts themselves. EV’s aren’t a Nirvana but long-term benefits are huge.
Define "huge"? If we keep trading in our ICE Golf for ever heavier ID4 or worse using substantial amounts of non-green or non-nuclear electricity, the gain will be minimal at best. That's without the fact we all have more vehicles driving more miles and order more stuff online that needs to be delivered to us.. So it all depends.
@@718YellowSubmarine I beg to differ, if we all drove EV's just imagine what walking round a city would be like.
@@jasonmugridge I'd imagine constantly watching my surroundings for oncoming traffic since you generally cant hear EVs.
@@LinuxMaster9we can create noise in cars
@@LinuxMaster9 Not really true. I was walking along my street this afternoon with ear buds in and could hear a Tesla Model 3 drive past me over the podcast I was listening to. They still create plenty of road noise. In carparks they generally make an audible "hum" at low speed when there is very little noise from the tyres.
Thank you so much for this episode! I listened to Mr. Atkinson’s talk and, to my surprise, thinking how wrong some of the information actually was that he talked about. I’m a big fan of his, but have wondered why he would spread such misinformation.
Maybe he ows Shell Stocks,and he doesn't wana give up his dividends.
Perhaps he was paid for his article.
@@scottbarrett4746 you may be right. Hope not, however.
You wonder why Rowan “fastest lap of star in a reasonably priced car” Atkinson, aka Mr “15 cars” Bean wrote Ann article slagging off EV’s?
@@philiptaylor7902 being from the U.S., I wasn’t aware of his I.C.E. background. What you say makes sense.
Good job ladies! Would be interesting to see what you'd find if you selected an appropriate max weight (say 2000kg) and then found out how many MPs and Lords drive cars over that limit and sent them all letters advising them that their cars might be banned from using multi-level parking lots.
It a problem for the outdated multi-level parking lot owners, all cars are much heavier than cars were 50 years ago, not just BEVs
@@casperhansen826 In North America our best selling "car" is the Ford F-Series Pickup Truck, in 2021 they sold about 750,000 of these compared to 300,000 Toyota Camrys. Plus the number two and three sellers were also big pickups from GM and Dodge (about 500,000 units each). These "cars" weigh in from about 2000 - 2500kg unloaded (which is important to note as they often have a bunch of extra stuff installed on them). So our parking lots will benefit from an electric transition only if people don't just switch to buying electric pickups (the F150 Lightning is 2700 - 3200kg).
Great video and well explained. I was really disappointed by the article as I'm also a big Rowan fan. Sadly there's so much misinformation from the big oil and gas companies and legacy automakers, that it's unsurprising people have these views. Thanks for fighting back with science and evidence! :)
Cobalt is not required for the newer EV batteries (Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo), Lithium/Sodium Hybrid cells, and for smaller cars, Sodium ion cells.
Well done for taking on this subject. Rowan Atkinson is an ill-informed petrol head, I can’t believe the Guardian published his article full of untruth
Rowan is and was an engineer before he was a petrol-head. He has many more qualifications to talk about this topic than these talking heads, you or I.
@@LinuxMaster9 nice try. Atkinson studied engineering at university, and turned to acting in 1979. So his expert engineering knowledge is 44 years out of date. No wonder he likes internal combustion and gets it totally wrong about battery chemistry, technology that has developed massively since he had any serious involvement
Rowen owned both a hybrid and full electric he is saying if everybody is out there are buying new electric cars all at once you will definitely cause more pollution than to service your car now these girls themselves are not seeing the picture Rowan is explaining this to us.those girls are being smug and saying he's anti electric vehicle and he's not he is saying the goverment are forcing people to buy electric cars all at once creating more co2 all at once. When you can fix your old car whether it's electric or gas and keep production lower so we don't over whelm the atmosphere at once.
@@LinuxMaster9 Nope, my degree in the same subject is more recent than his and I disagree with him so only one of us can be right on that basis of engineering knowledge.
Oh bugger! Having commented on this, RUclips has has stuffed half a a dozen Mr Bean videos on my 'to watch' list. 😂
So important to see the improvement trends from the technology. Having taken the plunge with a nearly new Nissan Leaf it’s good to hear the car has already reached its carbon payback. We’re also taking it into major credit by so far powering it exclusively from solar (hopefully 8 months in 12 ongoing and with a green energy supplier the other 4). The recycling side is moving faster now too but we need govt initiative for much huger gains.
Relative to EV's using 70% more energy, or "carbon debt" during production you have some additional points that should be used besides the ones you stated. The figures you use only concern the benefits after production whereas there are many more to consider during production, For example: 1. Where is the car produced? If it requires to be shipped via a ship there is quite a bit of carbon for the transit to point of purchase. 2. Are most of the parts locally produced or at least nearby as same as finished car if shipped via ship there is carbon for transit. 3. Electricity production: how much is green used for the manufacturing. There are probably more items during production that can alter the percentage. Just like consuming produced from your own garden is more ecological than bringing them in a boat from far away, or even having to drive to a market to purchase, there are more areas contributing to the carbon footprint which can indeed vary significantly by brand, product and where these make their products.
At last someone not blinkered by globalist policy and propoganda. And questioning the rhetoric, unlike 90% of the brainwashed commentors on here!
Yes, but many of the same parameters also apply to ICE vehicles. China is the largest manufacturer of batteries, and more than 50% of their power comes from renewables now. Their transitioning to electrification is happening at a staggering pace.
I wonder if the carbon payback times were calculated using the total emissions of the oil industry for the comparison or just of the vehicles themselves!?
@@FullFact548 No question. The issue with this is the complexity of the accounting as much depends on a multitude of variables. Just highlighting that it is not an easy comparison.
@elmojito Yes, I totally agree, and this is a widespread problem, especially in conversation with EV sceptics, who will often refer to the low CO2 of their diesel car, for example, and ignore all the other processes involved getting their fuel from well to pump. I often find this argument put forward when the worst pollution from diesel isn't CO2 but NOx and PM2.5. The zero emissions at point of use is an important construct in my mind.
One thing for certain is it doesn't pollute the air in dense cities which is a major issue now with some significant health concerns. That alone is a good enough reason to drastically reduce use of ICE in dense areas.
There are absolutely no rare earth metals in an EV's battery!!
"Rare earth metals" is just a name of that group of elements, they are not "rare" at all, they might well be expensive. Rare earth metals are used to manufacture highly efficient magnets. Talking of EVS, they are only used in electric motors of type "permanent magnet".
Rare earth metals are not only used in certain types of electric motors. The biggest part of rare earth metals is used in the glas and ceramic production.
Similar discussion as for cobalt, which is mainly used for: cutting, drilling and milling tools, medical technology (artificial joints), traditional automotive engineering (crankshafts, connecting rods, camshafts, valve seat rings),
refineries (catalysts for desulfurization of diesel and kerosene), airplanes (engines and turbines), color paints.
There you go again - confusing the issue with facts..... Glad you've done this video thanks. Pity the Daily Telegraph readers won't watch it!
When they do watch it they dismiss everything and place a laughing emoji.
haha I parked my car on the drive at my elderly mothers house. Her elderly neighbour came out and we were talking. His first question was "what's the range like?" to which I suggested that he was asking the wrong question and I asked "how far do you need to go?". Anyway, I told him it was about 250 miles practical and takes half an hour to charge.
His response "That's not what I read in the Telegraph."
*shrugs*
You're making the wrong argument against Rowan's claim about EV production. His citation of Volvo's LCA is accurate, and correct. You did not refute it or even explain it. You tried to make a what-aboutism pivot to challenge the operating emissions. Volvo & Polestar showed the production and operating emissions descretly in their data in the report. They used the example of 100% renewable energy there to show the best case scenario. That impact report was to attempt to show the greenness of their EV, which has been lost on all of you and everyone who attacked the impact report.
The question is, why does it emit 25 to 27 tonnes of CO2e to produce (and recycle, which is generally considered about net, since it saves future mining) a Volvo XC-40 Recharge or Polestar 2, when those cars were built in new factories in China that are LEED certified to run on renewable energy? The answer surprised Volvo/Polestar and they later clarified it. They said, when performing life cycle assessment of a car, you must include the emissions of all of your suppliers and all of the factories, transport, mining, extraction, refinement, subassembly, offage, etc. Since these cars are built in China and they don't control their suppliers' businesses, their suppliers high emissions responsible for the lion share of the emissions. So, not unlike the debunking articles you used to make your arguments, you failed to properly address the point that Rowan made about the high production emissions. Even the ICE production emissions were excessive compared to canonical LCA models like those used for GREET2 by Argonne Laboratories. Again, please stop trying to shoot the messenger, Atkinson, or Volvo, or the LCA partner who helped them ascertain these important impact numbers. Instead, REPORT on the issue and bring these problems to the public. You are doing a massive disservice to our future by attempting to discredit an audit that was not in fact flawed. If you want to make the argument that they underrated the ICE impact during operation, be my guest. But you won't be disputing the point Atkinson made about the fact that at delivery, the BEV has substantially more emissions, and those emissions are the important ones, because most EV owners are trying to charge with renewables if at all possible.
Invite Rowan Atkinson. Let him explain where is old info comes from. Possible mostly from the time he was in school. 😁
No clowns to real car panels.
this comment is it, the fact he has a degree and a masters is not enough to claim he knows what he is talking about. It would have possibly been, when he got them, and if he did enough to study this issue. Other than that, he just knows a bit more than the average Joe about electrical issues, does not give him credibility to discuss evs
Already BYD and Catl have moved to LFP and even Tesla are using LFP due to no nickle no cobalt.
And real soon we will see Sodium in cars.
Most of people’s wrong claims have aged already.
Thanks for dissecting these claims
I have so many conversations with intelligent good natured folks who regurgitate incorrect facts about how bad EVs are. I’m all for balanced open minded conversations, so I listen carefully and try to correct their mistakes without upsetting them. As with everything, once someone has formed an opinion it’s hard to change it. The oddest thing is how defensive people are, there’s often a feeling they are being accused simply for owning a petrol or diesel car, which is crazy. I own one myself and plan to use it sensibly till it’s time to replace, after that I’ll go electric.
I get the same from EV owners. They get very defensive and regurgitate talking points. "There are charging points all over the place..." yet there is only 1 in my entire city and it is at a Volvo dealership of all places. "I charge it at home....easy" I live in an apartment complex....no charger there and I can not just plug it into the wall. It goes on and on. I will continue to drive my Prius until it makes practical sense to drive an EV.
@@LinuxMaster9 It's true. While I am for EV's, There are certainly 'Koolaid-drinkers' on both sides - I'm probably guilty of being one at times. I leased a Leaf 2yrs ago and I enjoyed the car and electric driving experience - enough to still want to buy one in the future when I can afford to. But I'm lucky enough to have a driveway. Charging infrastructure back then was rubbish and I hated using public chargers. I feel like its improving (but too slowly) So I didn't then, and still don't really recommend getting one to anyone who can't charge at home, not yet anyway.
Sorry Ladies.... you need to get Mr Atkinson on your channel.... Nail these points face to face. This kind of rhetoric is just too lightweight.
Oddly enough, you wouldn't say this if here were three blokes here chatting about some nonsense written by a lady.
@stephen300o6 I don't often listen to nonsense about men or women. I stumbled upon this and its too lightweight. But maybe its because I'm in construction and we don't pushy foot around.
Fact check, there are nissan leafs that are 10 years old or so with batteries sitting at 30 to 40% which is not really ok.
Those 10 year old Nisan Leafs may have working batteries, but with significant degradation. The first generation Nissan Leafs suffered from faulty battery chemistry. The second and third generation Leafs, each have greater capacity batteries that do not suffer with the same chemistry problem.
Yes, but along came ‘leaf-gate’ (or whatever it was called). Nissan reduced the battery charging levels, particularly when the battery was getting too hot, in order to get over the lack of an active battery cooling system. Everyone has incorporated active battery temperature control for the traction battery now? Or is Nissan still selling Leafs without it?
@@oliver90owner As far as I know the Nissan Leaf still does not have active thermal battery management. It's just passive air flowing over the battery as the car moves. The same is true for its development stable partner the Renault Zoe. The newer Nissan Ariya does have active thermal battery management. Active thermal battery management seems to be the way to go. The problem with the Leaf was two fold. The first generation had defective battery chemistry and consecutive fast charging caused overheating without the active thermal battery management. That really only manifested itself on a long journey with multiple fast charging due to limited range. Not so much an issue with the latest Leaf that can do 200 miles at 70mph, as opposed to the 70 miles of the first generation.
Degradation just means less mileage not kaputt. If someone only needs to commute 30 miles a Nissan Leaf that still manages 50 miles is perfectly fine.
@@grahamcook9289 Agreed. If the Leaf was only charged gently on an AC charger and used for short commuter miles, the battery would likely have fared a lot better. Unfortunately any longer journeys needed a fast charge (or two) and the battery temperature was allowed to go too high.
I well remember batteries, from crashed cars, were favoured from Nordic areas, rather than a hot climate - when they were bought either as a replacement or stripped and re-configured for home battery storage.
Appreciate the effort that went into those points you raised, but I think the main point of the Guardian article was comparing a new EV with an existing (2nd-hand) ICE car. Important to bear that in mind and compare apples-to-apples.
that's comparing a brand new apple to a used apple though. pointless.
@@dylanadams1455 Not if you think a new EV is "greener" than an older second hand car. A second hand car doesn't add anything new to the current pool of emissions, while a new EV does (tailpipe included or not). That's the point.
Totally agree with you, and if the article had stuck to those facts, it would be fine. The problem is the misinformation.
I also don't think many people are looking to buy a brand new EV over a used ICE purely because of the desire to go green. Used cars are cheaper than new, obviously, but that's especially true of new EVs. I feel like few people are thinking "shall I spend 15k on a used Qashai or 50k on a Model Y".
@@shia_labeouf Agreed, not many people are planning to buy a new EV to go green for the sake of it. It's just the rhetoric that an EV is better for the environment in every way that needs explaining to say the least. As far as "misinformation" goes, well this is subjective if this was deliberate lies in my personal view. The unfortunate thing with life-cycle emissions analysis for example is the base assumptions define the result completely. Some of the debunkers for that Volvo analysis basically used a different set of assumptions, which in my view is not any better/worse. Just different. The correction around rare-earth metals in batteries was needed for sure, they are not used in batteries however they are critical in the electric motors. This fact is not mentioned in the above video, why? Rowan's excellent point of consumer culture being the biggest problem was not discussed here in this video either, why?
@@ashkreator W.H.A.T. ??? 🤣🤣🤣
I don't know if you guys have noticed this, but _The_ _Guardian_ has had something of a vendetta against EVs going on for some time now. I have written to the editors about this -- to no avail. Time to dump the subscription? What are the alternatives? The NYT is no better in this respect. Why do liberal newspapers have to be so smarter-than-thou?
I dumped the Guardian and my cash support for it when they continually published false ‘click bait’ articles on Tesla.
Why get so involved about the car you drive, why the obsession
Can you comment on the latest BBC panorama programme about the country being ready for EVs or not? I watched it & it was so biased against them, to the point where the presenter was seen mostly driving through the most remote parts of the country in VW electric camper van, totally unrepresentative of most drivers journeys, which are typically up to 30 miles a day at most. Not once did they mention how good the Tesla supercharger network is, or the introduction of LFP batteries that can be charged to 100% consistently. Would like to hear your take on this.
As Robert says on Fully Charged show him a gallon of recycled diesel or petrol. The Tesla CTO, former, who started Redwood Materials is JB Straubel who is back on the board of Tesla but isn't the CTO anymore. Don't forget even driving on the dirtiest coal grid is still cleaner than Petrol/Diesel vehicles as those vehicles get worse as their life goes on whereas EV's get cleaner. A Model 3 owner in Guelph Ontario drives his car with original battery, brakes and motors and has over 600,000km on it and his battery SoH is 75% and he still gets about 350km range which is still fine.
I'm sure on your tiny little island, 350km range is fine, but out here in the wide expanse of Canada, it's shyt.
@@coolworx All about charging infrastructure. As both Kyle(Out of spec) & Tom(State of Charge) have stated on their weekly podcast with Martyn & Dom. Why haul a huge battery around, the future won't be 500kWh batteries that weigh as much as 2 Hummers it will be small batteries with fast charging capabilities and ubiquitous charging infrastructure as common as service stations are. There will be a sweet spot for battery size and possibly 800v architecture similar to the eGMP cars able to charge quickly to get on the move.
You don't get it... there's places where there's absolutely nothing for 100 of k's except bush and bears. Plus it's -30C. It's a pipe dream.
@@coolworx Well there must be service stations now. It's not a pipe dream at all. I can imagine 100yrs ago your ancestors would be saying the same of early fossil cars when they were transitioning from horse and carriage. Never mind the fact that there as EV's 100yrs ago as well. Baker Electric, we could all be driving EV's now if fossil fuels weren't found. This transition is only 10yrs in, remember the fossil fuels won't last forever and we need them for FAR more than burning in an inefficient engine.
@@TassieEV Just the amount of minerals needed to make batteries that only last 10 years, will destroy whats left of the environment. You should check out Simon Michaux.
I find the aspect of changing and rticle in ajor spects AFTER THE FACT absolutely unethical... did not know that, so thanks for pointing that out
I think the real question is how much of the original article was edited before print, not written by Rowen Atkinson but adjusted to be skewed toward Pro oil views. But you where right to fact check and put the correct info out there . 👍
I don't think the Guardian skewed the article towards Pro oil views.
All three of you could only dream of having the gravitas, intellect and stature of Rowan Atkinson. And you've defeated a lot of your own arguments. Came across like a midmorning woman's chat show. I do enjoy your "housewife's perspective" car reviews but you should stick to that
But he was wrong on a number of points, wasn't he?
Oh, and sexist, some might claim (and not just the women either).
@@robhills2613 actually maybe - but more right than wrong. And the counter arguments put in this video were hardly scientific.. "oh I looked on Autotrader and found 77 electric cars over 10 years old" tells you nothing about the condition of the batteries in those cars, whether they had been replaced, etc. Or indeed how representative that is of 10 year old cars in general, electric or otherwise You can't counter scientific arguments with a few anecdotes.
@@robhills2613 call it like I see it. You can't use "oh you're just being sexist" to counter an argument
@@robhills2613 not as wrong as this video "oh modern cars are heavier - the just are" Modern EV';s typically HALF A TON HEAVIER than ICE equivalent
ICE car batteries only last 3-5 years in my experience, and then don't do anything else as far as I know. So ten years for an EV battery before it goes on to however many years in other work seems great.
Plenty of 20 Year old Toyota's still running........My 92 Dodge colt was 21 years old when I traded it...And got $2000 for it on trade............Paul
@@paulholterhaus7084 FC id commenting on batteries, not vehicles. Lead acid batteries are very recyclable, mind. 95% plus is likely (let’s forget the extra water people fill into the cells, if possible, and just consider the water in normal modern sealed lead acid batteries.
BUT, those lead acid batteries could (and are) being changed to Lithium ion batteries. Some (not car manufacturers yet) have added capacitors to aid starting power (so that a smaller lead acid battery can be employed) and Tesla have likely already changed to Lithium ion for the low voltage battery for all their new vehicles.
edit: Oops, meant small Lithium battery plus capacitors, not ‘lead acid’. Lithium ion cells do not discharge at sufficient rate for starter motors
Actually, EVs have more problems with their 12v battery than with their high-powered battery. In fact, the AA says it's one of the commonest problems encountered for EV breakdowns.
Not sure where you get your info from, I had my last car over 10 years and still on the original battery
@neiltaylor513 You are lucky, I've had to buy at least 4 new batteries in different cars over the years ☹️
This was very refreshing, please consider doing more discussions debunking this issues!!
My traction battery on my lexus hybrid failed after 13 years and a year out of warranty, it cost a lot to replace it of course, im still not convinced with EV car batteries especially when buying out of warranty.
That is because people are not aware of how that battery has been charged. If charged ‘gently’ to only 80% and not often used to below 20%, it will likely be good. If constantly charged on high power (DC) chargers to close to 100% every day and used to a very low charge level before recharging, it will not last as long.
The charging/discharging history is recorded in the depths of the car history records. Leased cars, returned to the leasing company after the contract period are more likely to have had their battery stressed as described above.
Engine failed on my 9 year old diesel golf, had to write the car off….whats the difference
There are numerous phone apps that can check the traction battery's health via a Bluetooth dongle plugged into the OBDII port, so it is possible to assess before buying.
A hybrid's battery experiences constant rapid cycling of it's relatively small capacity which reduces it's life.
Great work debunking some of the EV issues.
Hey guys, love the table discussion format , a great show full of information, thanks !!!.
Fact check: let’s just Google the answer. Facts! 😂
That's just it, I thought I was the only one watching this constant googled garbage. Its amazing how they think they are experts on everything green, the truth is nothing is green ev or ice are all damaging the planet and our constant greed for more will only increase! Until we run out of everything. Who thinks you can make anything without impacting the planet? I guess you can build everything with magic electrons though😂😂.
Bit of a war in the media going on with EVs .
Honestly most people don't care about the environment as much as you might think,
Bottom line is affordability, most people will drive whatever is cheapest as long as it gets the job done.
If both were equal it would be very interesting to see which wins.
Well currently MG seem to have a monopoly on anything remotely affordable. Seems like the companies selling EVs are making things much worse with those drastic price increases.
I care about the environment but tell me how that works with lithium mining.
@@neiltaylor513 most lithium mining is done through quarrying but some is done threw evaporation which can be quite damaging. Mining and exploration will always continue when it comes to fossil fuels.
@@londonyes1380 I think we have seen the quarry mines in tropical areas with total destruction. I like EVs, but this holler then thou that some have whilst ignoring this destructions turns me off.
@@neiltaylor513 exactly, , saving the environment mayl actually require sacrifice IE giving up our cars and improving public transport etc.
I'm out in the sticks in Yorkshire and the situation is pretty dire, busy pot holes roads, woefully inadequate and expensive buses etc ,
The answer is not ev to hats just a side step and pretty bad one.
75 Nissan Leafs... and what evidence did you find that the batteries are actually usable? Did the sellers provide range evidence for the state of their 10yo cars? Have the batteries been fully and independently verified that they are maintaining 50%? 80%? Or are you just stating "they work you just won't make it as far as the end of your driveway"? Facts can be manipulated both ways. I am disappointed that instead of debunking with facts, you are throwing out emotions and 5min Internet checks, presenting these as evidence. I'm in the process of buting a used EV, and I HAVE done my research.
A guy called Colin Walker exgimated that after recycling only 30g of lithium and other materials are actually consumed.
Brilliant, there is enough FUD to make a video like this every week, Well done .
Thanks! But one huge mistake. A cars footprint is not just Co-2. A combustion engine emits lots of toxic stuff. People die from it. So that should be factored in.
I think that's the more important thing. Even if someone doesn't buy the Co2 argument they cant dismiss the concerns about what else comes out and that it is proximity to those other emissions when they are emitted that's the danger factor.
Thanks for the great content! Fact checking you guys on something you said regarding Green electricity tariffs. There still seems to be some misunderstanding out there, which I feel you added to (16m30s) regarding the electricity a household uses if they are on a green tariff. Being on a green tariff does not mean you are using 100% green electricity. Usage is whatever the mix is for the national grid, regardless of what tariff you are on. Hence for a personal or household offset calculation, we still need to factor in usage times so that usage is when CO2 from the grid mix is at its lowest. Yes the electricity you used is backed up by your supplier feeding in an equivalent amount of 100% green electricity to the grid, and that's a good thing, but it doesn't mean you can use all your consumption as a household as a carbon offset calculation. The NG ESO app is a good source of real-time and other data on the mix of grid electricity.
The only thing I actually took away from the article is that Mr Bean is a Tory right winger who more than likely has a vested interest in hydrogen/e-fuel companies and hence why he was trying to push them.
He's not a Tory right winger. There's a speech floating around RUclips in defense of free speech.
Great video, do the green payback figures take into account coal electricity used to refine oil and shipping oil/petrol?
Volvo talked about their own ev carbon use and not the ev market. They als talked anoit this in 2009, or at least that's when it was shown in the daily mail
According to an article in Reuters yesterday, China now produces 50.9% of its electricity from non-fossil fuel sources, wind, solar, and hydro, so carbon payback is improving there also. Apparently in 2021 China set a goal of producing half their electricity from renewables by 2025, so are 2 years ahead of that goal 😊
Batteries are consumables full stop. The full cycle discharge numbers are a proxy for the finite life span. The "years of life" issues you go on about make a number of assumptions just like Atkinson's assertions. As for the channel, perhaps follow the money is the best model. You lost me at 20:00.
Amazing that people would accept articles that clearly are not designed to inform - but do mislead. Thank you for your work. We need to reinstate truth as an essential part of all communication.
If people are full-blown ICE fans ("they cannot take my V8/V6 away!"), they might just welcome bad news about their "opponent" without questioning the details ...
and the range for driving of these leaf batteries was on average ?? i wouldnt call a ICE car battery with a third of a charge fit for purpose, would it start a car ?
Second life for EV batteries is also an unsubstantiated claim. I know that these batteries are not going into landfill. That is very clear. However, thus far, utility companies have NO tolerance for used EV batteries with no significant warranty or understood expectation of prior abuse to use on the grid. Please ask utility companies if they are doing this. They are not. I work with the people running these agencies and it's not happening. This was anecdotal information, shared about individuals who have chosen to try to pull off energy arbitrage with storage crates full of Leaf packs, given press on day one with no followup about the actual contribution of these batteries to substantially address renewable energy transience. We all WANT that to be happening. But I can assure you thus far it has been pilot programs and individuals "trying it out". This means the majority of EV batteries, unless something changes significantly, will be recycled far sooner than when they actually cannot operate as batteries any longer. The real shame here is, that currently, no manufacturer had designed EV batteries to be serviceable at the call level. Even when a manufacturer tried to service a pack at the module level, they find themselves at the mercy of sorting/sourcing similar mileage/age packs to rob Peter to Pay Paul and reassemble a pack with similar vintage modules to assure balance & performance parity.
Electrifying could be bringing these challenges to forefront and making them visible, thus improving the sustainability of EVs. If we let the public believe in half-truths about 2nd life or battery longevity, we're doing a disservice by not forcing the EV companies to do better.
True or false, you can service a BMW i3 battery pack at a dealership. True, but they can only repair to the module level, not the cell level. The software needed to assess and reset the battery computers costs $10,000 so independent shops cannot, will not do this. But BMW is the good example. Tesla only give the option of complete battery replacement with new for $20,000 if you are off warranty or refurbished battery with all used modules if you are still in warranty. That work cannot be done locally. It has to go back to factory. Teslas's new structural packs are disposable design, all potted together, with no option to repair. One and done if a single cell fails and it brings down the whole pack. Please ask Gruber about this. It's a real problem with EV design that could/should be addressed.
Nissan and Renault have been repurposing their disused EV batteries into home batteries for at least 5 years to my knowledge. Used Tesla batteries can fetch as much as £1,230 in the UK for a single module to be used in the EV conversion industry. Demand is huge. Even a 24kWh Nissan Leaf battery at 30% degradation holds more than 16kWh of electricity, enough to run a house for up to 2 days.
With so many evs , which also means so many batteries connected to the grid at any point , we will be able to harness the power of lightning in the future.
Another point of Atkinson's article is of frightfully bad faith: that people now tend to sell their cars after 3 years, leading to an awful waste of resources. But ignored is the fact that those cars may change owner, but are definitely not scrapped, and will probably last double the time an ICE car would, just in the hands of several successive owners.
PetrolRange rover weight 5,240 lbs,petrol VW up weight 2,200lbs. So we could drastically reduce vehicle co2 production if large suvs banned
Regardless of the payback time. No emmisions is massive plus for the local area air quality. Even if electric cars were just as bad as ICE ones. Moving the emissions away from people is reason alonento adopt them.
I once asked why The Media are so anti-EV and pro Gas Guzzlers. I was told that Musk rarely pays for Advertising. General Motors spends Three Billion Dollars U.S. each year to advertise. If you owned a Newspaper, who would you support? Is that true?
Most car parks in the UK should never have been built in the first place. Pulling them down for a rebuild seems like a no-brainer. Cover them with solar panels too.
often old batteries are only a few cells are degraded and will be a big industry repairing batteries- Cleverly motors have done some taxis with high mileage
Other errors in Mr. Bean's article:
1. Most EV manufacturers are going with LiFePo4 batteries, without "precious metals" such as Cobalt and Nickel.
2. Hydrogen cars are NOT lighter than EVs, as Mr. Bean tried to suggest. Toyota Mirai (hydrogen car) has about the same weight and comparable range as a Tesla Model 3 (electric car).
3. Due to physical laws, green hydrogen production requires a lot of energy. Considering all the inefficiencies, a battery electric car can travel 3 to 5 times more miles than a hydrogen car for a given amount of green electricity. So we will need three times more generation capacity to travel the same number of miles. For synthetic fuels, the situation is even worse (5 - 7 times more miles with a battery EV than with a combustion engine running on e-fuel).
4. Combustion of synthetic fuels may be CO2-neutral but it still generates toxic pollutants.
renault zoe battery is a good battery example- very low degradation.and they are 10 years old
actually, not a good example. The Zoe and Leaf both run air cooled batteries, so the degradation is actually significantly greater than with liquid-cooled batteries, which are found on literally everything else.
Just a note on the 'carbon payback' calculations - a lot of the graphs/calculations that are shown/quoted do not take into account the carbon emissions for actually getting the petrol/diesel to the pumps in the first place - so the payback for EV's is most probably quicker than stated (although I don't know if they did or didn't for the figures that you're quoting here). After digging around, I did eventually find some information on a study that was conducted to work this out - the figures they quoted were that for the carbon emissions for just burning the fuel in your car (which is all that's normally taken into account), you should add approx 30% on top to account for everything involved in the production and delivery of the fuel to the petrol station forecourts.
You make some good points and it seems inevitable that EV's will become the norm, however current prices for anything that you might actually want to drive are very expensive compared to their equivalent petrol/diesel counterparts. I wonder whether there will ever be a "classic" EV like the 50+ years petrol motors that are still around today. It will also depend on how much progress can be made with hydrogen and/or biofuels. They get very little coverage because the whole brainwashing machine is towards electric. Hasn't Europe just put back stopping the sale of conventionally powered cars by 5 years? Rowan isn't the only one debunking EV's just one of the most well known.
Yes, money is tight at the moment, but the total cost of ownership of an EV is lower than that of a similar size ICE vehicle. Prices have dropped in the used EV market, having now normalised and a better supply of used EVs available. They are still more expensive than a used ICE vehicle, but I do most of my journeys at 2p per mile in a Tesla Model 3.
Rowan may be the most well-known, but he is also, like many other EV sceptics, misinformed. The Volvo report was extremely misleading as there is no set amount of CO2e for EV battery production as there are numerous variables. For example, according to M.I.T. an 80kWh battery for a Tesla Model 3 can produce between 2.4 tonnes of CO2e and 16 tonnes depending on the manufacturing processes. That's a huge range.
Volvo stated their EV models produced 70% more emissions than the same ICE variant, but even if that were true, the carbon payback also varied depending on how clean the electricity used to charge the vehicle is.
Going by UK figures for average mpg of petrol and diesel cars and the average CO2 produced per kWh of electricity, a petrol car produces 346.4% more CO2e and a diesel 332.6% more CO2e. That is using an average of 333Wh of electricity per mile.
For every 10k miles driven, a diesel or petrol car will produce more than 2 tonnes more CO2e than an EV, plus numerous other gases creating more air pollution and premature death.
I drive a 63 reg Renault Zoe which is almost ten years old and still has 97% battery state of health. So it is going to be many more miles before the battery will be of no further use.
The BMW factory that built the i3 reportedly generates more electricity than it uses, selling the surplus to a nearby VW plant. The electricity is generated by some very large wind turbines and arrays of solar PV panels.
As more car manufacturers follow suit and generate green electricity on-site, the weaker the argument about energy used in manufacturing becomes. If all the energy used in manufacturing is renewable then the mileage required to offset the environmental cost of manufacturing is very small.
Who was the Guardian editor for the piece & have they been torn a new one for ducking up also 🤷♀️
I think this all steams from being an early adopter, in the short space of time EVs have been on the market they have improved massively. The downside is that early experience is likely to negatively skew your opinion. Which is probably where Rowan's beef generally comes from. But lets face it 2030 is coming and with more and more EV choice coming onto the market in the UK, it will be a viable option for many.
When you say Nissan leaf with perfectly good batteries. You failed to say what this means do they have 95% health or 60 or 70% as some owners seem to to saying? To fact check properly, you need to provide figures and evidence.
Yes, technically, they are not rare earth metals, but they aren't clean or common. The way they are extracted leaves a lot to be desired. Child labour is never good.
You may be able to recycle an EV battery, but the cost to replace that battery will not be economical, probably writing the vehicle off.
I have an EV and when it is time to change, I will be going back to an ICE car. The purchase cost of my EV was frightening, depreciation is horrendous, the insurance has become extortionate, public charging is more expensive per mile than a petrol (especially in winter) and my battery is not at full health after just 2 and a half years and just 15,000 miles. Oh, and my last service was more expensive than my last ICE cars equivalent service.
Don't get me started on the range during the winter - that is based on actual experience, not something a bloke told me down the pub!
I think Toyota are on the right track with ICE cars powered by ammonia.
Nothing Rowan Atkinson said was anti-EV, he was suggesting their shortfalls, possible alternatives and solutions to these problems. The fact that EV's are expensive, the batteries do not last for particularly long for regular car users, limited range and length of charge time are genuine problems that either need wide-spread infrastructure change or a rethink to how electricity could be delivered to vehicles or potentially using synthetic carbon-neutral fuels.
Simply having rose-tinted glasses on about these problems and nit-picking things like extended warranties does nothing to address these problems
We all know that batteries are the weakest link with regards to electric cars at present. Too heavy, not energy dense enough, using very valuable minerals. And limited recycling facilities. This is just what happens in life. Technology constantly improves and replaces what went before and this shouldn’t be seen as a problem otherwise we wouldn’t have any transport solution other than our legs!
Batteries are improving rapidly. And there is no shortage in recycling facilities. There is only a shortage in run down batteries, because these bastards just refuse to die😅
All of the points you mentioned, are likely to be addressed or sorted within the next 3 years, once solid state battery technology takes over. This will mean physically smaller, lighter battery packs with greater energy density ( meaning more range) and faster charging than we see now......
@@Brian-om2hh Won’t be in 3 years. There might be a breakthrough that means we can technically produce solid state that is more dense and last a long time but to then see them in volume production will be many years after that. Tesla won’t even have their Gen 3 cars out until late 2024. It won’t be until another generation after that we’ll see a step change in EV’s and that is likely to another 5 years from then so close to 2030. You need to factor in the time from technical feasibility to prototyping, production, launch and ramping to volume.
@@ISuperTed Sorry to burst your bubble, but CATL has already launched its "Condensed Matter" battery. Up to 500Wh/kg and cheaper than current Lithium Ion batteries. They go into production before the end of the year, and will probably pretty much take over within 2.
BYD and Samsung both have similar tech ready to launch (apparently).
BTW, with the amount that is going into research, I expect 1000Wh/kg to be production ready before ICEs are finally banned in 2035.
Batteries is the best way to store and release energy in an efficient way.
Batteries are one of the strong point of electric cars.
A lot of retired peeps buy electric cars, since they can afford them, but they do little mileage. Need to get electric cars into hands of high mileage peeps
Buy a Hyundai Ioniq 5 , it does 320-350 miles on a charge. We have one, it’s fantastic
I think the latest FUD I have seen is: EV's are twice as bad at causing pot holes in our roads.
Nothing to do with the huge delivery vans or trucks or articulated lorries.
And we never had pot holes before EV's apparently.
Discuss please.
Thanks
Great job! Could you share your sources so we can reuse them? In particuler the 13500 miles for a tesla model 3 to pay back its added CO2 manufacturing costs. Thanks!
It’s comedy gold going back to read his column, then reading all the Guardian corrections underneath it, then reading the Guardian asking for £2 per month 🤣 yeah, no thanks 🥴
To be fair the guardian even ran their own article fact checking and disputing Rowan's article quite early on. I guess this is one of those issues about whether 'comment pieces' should be fact checked or even published at all
Strange that pretty much all of the comments are supportive of your video ladies. Hmmmm!
No it isnt strange. They push back on anti EV nonsense and people appreciate that.
Brilliant work 👏 👍 👌 just got my MG4 last week getting use to it 👍
Rare earth metals are not a category in the periodic table. And metals such as Lithium, Cobalt, Indium, Tantalum, Niobium and others are considered to be rare metals .. at least by an article from MIT on the future of strategic natural resources I read recently and other geological articles it referenced. and those metals are used in electric car batters or in the cars computer system, or other areas of the car.. some of the metals are used in cars gasoline powered cars as well.
Saying that the newer generation of EV batteries could be expected to last 15 to 20 years is probably accurate. However most EV car manufacturers only warranty them either 8 or 10 years. Lifetime is going to depend on how you drive, where you drive, how many times you charge and the method of charging and other factors. The batteries do lose some of their capacity as they go so while a 15 year old car may have a battery that still works it may have lost a significant portion of its its charge capacity.
One issue of concern is alot of manufacturers are not transferring battery warranty, so the used market for EVs is risky.
The 13.500 miles for the tesla x before the carbon payback as they termed it.. That is basing it on ideal conditions where the electricity is being produced by the cleanest source which is certainly not the average.
Also to mention the EPA in a study from just a few months ago testing efficiency, internal combustion cars were getting 4% better fuel efficiency than the manufacturers rated them at at electric vehicles tested had a 12.5% lower range than mfgs claimed.
The truth is usually somewhere in the middle. not as gloomy a picture as Mr Atkinson paints it and not as rosy.. at least not yet.. as presented here.
A couple of points. 1. The term "rare earth" is misleading as these metals' availability is rare in comparison to abundant metals like iron, aluminium, zinc, and copper.
2. No product carries a warranty for the whole of its expected lifetime, which is the same for EV batteries. Most companies give 8 year warranties or 100k miles
3. Yes, different conditions can affect a vehicle battery's longevity and emissions, but that applies to all vehicles, including ICE
4. Commonly, comparisons between the emissions of an ICE vehicle and an EV the total emissions of fuel production are ignored. I don't know if that was the case in the research you mentioned.
5. Battery manufacturers have many years of experience, and I would suggest that battery lifespans are what is claimed. In fact, the lifespan of batteries was underestimated initially and has been found to last a lot longer than first thought.
Lastly, even at 50% of the original capacity, an EV battery has other uses, and modern recycling methods are retrieving up to 95% of the materials used during manufacturing.
KIDS MINING IN THE CONGO FOR COBALT FOR THE BATTERIES - AND OFTEN DYING
As for comparing production, it makes a huge difference where a car is made. A Romanian Dacia Duster will have a different carbon footprint compared to a VW T-Roc made in Wolfsburg and again will have a different carbon footprint to a Tesla M3 built at the Gigafactory which is powered by solar and wind. I'd argue without having researched that the Tesla Model 3 has the lowest carbon footprint even before it has driven a mile.
Also the carbon footprint comparisons don't take into account where and how the oil has been sourced, they only look at the CO2 which comes out at the tailpipe, ignoring that UK refineries alone take about 5TWh of electricity / year and a typical oil platform burns 25m3 of unrefined diesel / day ...
Also I doubt these studies include oil filters, fuel filters, engine oil and much higher wear on brake pads etc.
6 months later it’s all coming true…. my compliments Mr. Atkinson!
Most discussions today will (rightly) be about batteries. The rest of what has become EV technology has been around for decades--although mostly in plugged or wired version. Electric trains, trams, as well as small independent golf carts.
This needs to be a weekly thing.
That made an exciting change, I enjoyed the conversation.
Dear Mr Bean, Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned....or to put it another way...your now pulped!
Fun fact: rare earth metals aren't particularly rare, either.
Batteries may last longer than 10 years, but how much of their capacity do they retain after 10 years of charge/discharge cycles? Maybe half? So a 100 mile range of a new Leaf is maybe 50 miles after 10 years.
Is this fact-checking because his opinion is not valid, or that you need to keep the EV car manufacturers sweet to keep your channel profitable. EV charging is still difficult in parts of the UK. EVs are too expensive, and batteries will degrade over 10 years making the secondhand value poor, recycling batteries is very dangerous and need specialist plants to do it. If your batteries go on fire ask the Fire Service how difficult it is to put it out. What about the waste caused by the increased tyre wear. Really think you are just protecting your jobs and your channel.
Wrong, and I have done a great deal of fact-checking. Anywhere there is a 13amp outlet, you can charge an electric car. There are 43k public chargers at 26k locations around the UK, providing a total of 65k charge outlets. Battery degradation is very small unless the vehicle has been abused by continuous rapid charging for example. You can expect 1-1.6% a year under normal driving. Yes, battery fires are more difficult to extinguish but are 60 times less likely to catch fire than an ICE vehicle. EVs are heavier than their ICE counterparts, but that has minimal effect on tyre wear. I personally know a Tesla Model S owner who got 60k miles out of his first set of tyres, and at 80k miles, the car still had its original brake pads. Driving style has a greater effect on tyre wear than weight. There are also plenty of ICE SUVs on the roads of the UK that are heavier than most EVs. Li-ion battery recycling is a growing and profitable industry and can now recycle up to 95% of battery materials safely.
Dear ladies, I enjoyed your comments as a reaction of all the negative media news about EV's. Yeas it is AJAX (the Arena) which uses Nissan Leaf batteries as a power back-up. And yes I already owe a Tesla model S P85 since 2/2014 (10 years already) , I do have my own solar panels eversince and added an extra 4 kWh peak to it in 2022. I also have free supercharging at Tesla (for life) , driving an EV is really a cheap adventure. My car's consumption is 16,5 kWh / 100 km's and I only use my car when there is no snow/salt on the road.
It is all about who is sponsoring who to bring out negative news about EV's. As said I enjoyed your expertise, please go on with it ! Thanks
I hate to say it but he has a point with some of what said because EVs are far too expensive both to buy and insure plus the infrastructure especially over where I live in Northern Ireland is rubbish so really I don't think EVs are necessarily the whole future in so far as it's actually kinder for the planet to keep your current car than to switch straight away to EV.
The average European driver will break even on carbon emissions for making an EV in two years of driving vs keeping an ICE-car, so no, keeping your old ICE is not actually "kinder" to the planet unless you stop driving entirely in two years time.
With regard to EVs being greener that ICE vehicles within a year of average driving, Mr Bean was claiming that it's better to keep hold of old bangers, than to trade them in for an EV.
But these old bangers are way more polluting than a new car, so the EV will 'overtake' these cars much faster.
I suppose he could have (but didn't) argued that the old banger might not be scrapped, so the EV's carbon footprint is on top of the old car's pollution.
Strange that he focused on not buying EVs and not on not buying new cars, if I remember correctly. Toyota will thank him.
15 years should not be the expected lifespan of a vehicle that cost that amount of co2 to produce. The issue in this world is pre mature obsolescence and in general a throw away attitude towards all goods produced. It is always going to be more environmentally friendly to keep the thing you have than replace with new. The majority of new cars are lease deals which after three years can be replaced with a brand new car. It's a green fallacy
Shes going to pay for these batteries to be recycled? Nobody else can afford to.
That Mr Bean piece irritated me at the time. I read the original and didn't know it had been updated 5 times withing a couple of weeks.
The Guardian did do a fact check piece a couple of weeks later, but that's almost pointless.
The people who run with this are generally anti-EV, loved the piece being in the 'lefty, PC' Guardian and aren't interested in any fact checks or corrections.
So.......if I do 5 - 6 times the average mileage as a business driver.......will my battery be well past its best and underperforming after 3 or 4 years??
One interesting way to debunk this was Martin veicha from tesla ir. Take the weight of your ev, then take the weight of your gas guzzler&all the fuel it'll burn over its lifetime. Here in the U.S. an average car is just over 4,040# and a sedan like the model 3 gets maybe 25mpg lifetime.
Supposedly we can get up to 17 years and over 200,000 miles out of it? I'd shudder to see the maintenance bill if you kept it that long myself. Anyway 200,000 miles at 25mpg=8,000 ish gallons of gas burned at 6# per gallon ad's up to an additional 48,000# of fuel alone consumed.
Fuel which has to be extracted causing emissions and pollution, plus using up water and other chemicals at just the drill rig site.
Those drill rigs aren't used for anything else either, so what about the emissions to make them? Transport them into place, run them etc?
Then it must be transported most often by a big ole oil tanker burning dirty dangerous bunker fuel, stored in tanks dockside.
Transported again to the refinery, stored again. Processed into useable petroleum products using more energy and water, plus creating more pollution at every step of the way.
Then pumped through a pipeline using massive electric motors, pumped into trucks or trains. Transported again using even more energy&creating some more particulate matter pollution, stored in tanks that leak into local water sources.
Before finally being pumped into a gassers tank using more electrical energy. Where it is burned from a well-wheels efficiency of less than 25%
Let's ignore all the oil spills to just for making those darn evs look more evil. 😁
That also doesn't count exh parts like catalytic converters being replaced that burn out or clog(I ran a service shop this happens a LOT on modern cars stuck in stop n go traffic or driven in short cycles)those cats which use platinum metals in them&are stolen because of that.
It doesn't inc air filters evs don't have which get replaced every 10-15,000 miles in ice and are dumped by the hundreds of millions into landfills.
It doesn't inc the oil changes done every 5,000 mile or so at 5 quarts apiece plus the oil filter made of steel being dumped in a landfill more often than not.
It doesn't inc any additional fluid flushes or filters for the trans or even all the services ice vehicle's require that most evs do NOT.
So with the grid getting more sustainable and efficient every year now. How can any person capable of clear logical thought believe an ev could be worse sustainability wise or for the environment itself is beyond me.
And I am not someone whose in the general ev targeted male market either.
Rather I'd like to see the cards all laid out and the spades clearly called spades. 😎👍🏻
You knitting forum don't know how to fact check, because you can't even get the parameters right. Rowan's statement they only last 10 years is correct, and having a few examples of older EVs for sale with perfectly good batteries does not alter that. Firstly, Rowan didn't stipulate that no EV could run on an older battery. Generalisations are allowed. In the main, an EV battery is considered kaput if it reduces range by 20% or more, yet others could see a 75% remaining range as perfectly good. A minority will claim it's still lasting, while the majority say it's time to replace it and make a house battery of it. And 100 perfectly good old batteries in the for sale columns isn't much to crow about if there are 10,000 old cars with about six thousand that have had replcement batteries already, and the others having all gone to the wrecking yards. There is too little information in your so-called 'facts' to be very wary of the adage "lies, damn lies and statistics" being used. I hope you haven't begun with your trump card? Knit me a jumper, ladies.