Was Odo a Fascist Collaborator? - Star Trek | Renegade Cut
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- Опубликовано: 30 янв 2025
- Was Odo a collaborator? Major Kira claims he was not, but this does not entirely hold up to scrutiny. Support Renegade Cut through Patreon: / renegadecut
#startrek #trek #ds9
Odo reminds me of a dear friend of mine from Kurdistan, who during Saddam's rule worked as a police officer in Northern Iraq, I met him in 2003 when we invaded. He was the first local friend I made, he helped me as a combat medic as a translator to assist various peoples both allied soldiers, iraqi nationalists, and kurds alike. However there were many days where we had our usual cup of tea and he would break down in tears over, well, everything. He admitted to helping be part of hurting his own people under Saddam, and for being passive with the treatment of many Iraqis. I never really knew what to say to him. I myself was a soldier from a foreign land who thought because I joined before 9/11 for college money, and that I choose to be a combat medic. I thought I was doing right, I thought I was helping, and I did when I could.
But as you said it is immaterial how I felt/feel or how my dear friend who is no longer with me felt.
Order without justice is just oppression.
Interesting. I met an older Kurdish guy at a Kurdish fundraiser in Southern California who served as a spy in Saddam Hussein’s army back in the day. I wonder if he had to make any compromises of the kind that your friend did. Imperialism is a bitch, huh?
Nowhere near the same thing but when travelling and doing a course related to Buddhism I met a Romanian cop. The Romanian police are horrendously corrupt and known for, well, the things people in uniforms do when you give them power and the ability to easily abuse it.
He seemed like a reasonably nice guy. I remember asking him, probably too clumsily, if it was difficult policing in Romania. Just got a "No." and a look that said "fuckin drop it."
It's sad to think of otherwise kind and compassionate people put in positions where they have to on a pretty daily basis compromise what their heart tells them is wrong.
Hell, I'm a civilian nurse and I've worked in hospitals, one in particular, where I've seen neglect/abuse of people allowed to continue because any power structure or organization can be rotten with the wrong people at the top. And all you can do (having attempted whistleblowing myself), in reality, is keep your head down and mitigate it as much as you can.
Thank you for sharing, that was really moving.
@@fromthedumpstertothegrave3689 I think it should be possible to come up with structures that are not easily corrupted. But society tries very little in this regard.
My brother joined and was going to be an MP, ended up at a fob training Iraqi Police... difficult space to be, emotionally.
Thank you for coming out the other side sane :)
This is what's great about DS9, there's conflict between the main characters and that means not all of them can be in the right.
BEST TREK SERIES OF THEM ALL!!
B-b-but conflict between main characters goes against Daddy Gene's V I S I O N!!!!!
@@swishfish8858 I've always found that complaint confusing, like, have those people watched TOS? The three main charactrers, Kirk, Spock and Bones are constantly at odds, sometimes even breaking Federation law to stand against the others, it's one of the main sources of debate and ethical dialectic. It's what the show is literally about.
This is a “black and white” debate about moral grey areas. Odo is alien even among other aliens. The human standard of collaboration does not apply because he can never fully join either side… until his lady friend tips him head over heels.
Also, for Changelings one POW does guarantee peace. They won’t harm one of their own even indirectly and humans know this.
"So René, this Mirror Universe episode is going to be lots of fun, all very different: Nana gets to play a kinky despot, Avery's a space pirate, and you'll be an authoritarian tool of a fascist state..."
Haha well said.
Lol
"...but this time you're more of a dick about it."
best comment.
The only difference between Odo and Mirror Odo is Mirror Odo will shoot you himself instead of letting the Cardassians do it.
Dude, I love Odo, and this video fuckin' RULES. I think it sends a very important message: people who enable oppressive systems don't always seem like the bad guys. Renee's performance is legendary, lending Constable Capri Sun a lot of depth, humor, and charm. It's hard to believe that such a complex, empathetic guy--who is capable of such deep love and connection--is ultimately an enabler of evil, oppressive systems, but the fact is that he voluntarily and enthusiastically stood alongside the powers responsible for making his hot bajoran crush's life significantly worse. He's selfish, cruel, and unsympathetic to those who threaten his worldview. As a CHARACTER, he's fascinating and a joy to watch, but as a PERSON? He sucks, and I wish the writers had been a little more willing to make him contend with the pain he'd caused so many others.
But hey, my favorite is Garak, so it's not like being a nasty rat bastard has ever stopped me from enjoying a character before.
Yes. I think that utimately the writers did have their cake and eat it too in regards to Odo- he got to romance Kira Nerys and return to save his fascist goo people. But everything you said was correct. Plus: Garak rules.
💯 yes yes yes
Garak is amazing and precious and can definitely clap these cheeks
Garak is the best character, there can be no doubt.
Yeah Garak seems so different from Odo because both he and the writers understand how evil the stuff he did is. Odo feels more insidious because of his unwavering belief in his own righteousness, and the swelling music and other storytelling devices that help us side with him
The idea that cops are not neutral mediators is actually baked into our justice system. The whole reason for a division between "criminal" law and "civil" law is that criminal law is inherently asymetrica, citizen vs the entire might of the state. Civil laws is essentually citizen vs citizen and the judge is there to work out which citizen is right. I'm happy to concede that an ideal judge is in in theory neutral , even in the case of criminal law to some extent (in that practical circumstances a lot of judges are often fairly critical of the cops) , but cops are definately not.
Try explaining that to cop apologists.
tfw you realize that Quark was a better person than Odo.
They were both....something else.
I mean, that's debatable, but Quark -- a capitalist, misogynist criminal -- is still more...likeable?
Ironically I think Quark was more honest about himself.
@@joshuabonesteel2303 Quark wasn't a war profiteer for long, turning on his partners when he realized they had no problem with civilian casilities.
Not so much that Quark was a better person than Odo, more that Quark showed he was capable of growth and becoming better while Odo was not.
The Bajorans did paint Odo as a noble and honorable man though. He was seen an unflinchingly fair and honest, and was so respected they gladly allowed him to maintain his authority after the Cardassian’s withdrew.
I entirely agree with your assessment of him though. He was a collaborator and was definitely not a ‘good’ man, but rather a dispassionate, law-obsessed cop.
I’m just curious though as to how he gained his reputation with the Bajorans, if he was regularly turning them over to the Cardassian state for execution. That seems like something they wouldn’t forgive...
From their perspective he was likely the best candidate for the job and far more fair than anyone else, almost anyone else chosen for that position would have been a cardassian that would not have cared weather the person arrested was guilty or not, Odo at least did his best (outside of the flashback episode) to do a proper investigation to make sure that only those guilty of the crime of which they were accused were punished, even if the punishment did not fit the crime.
Yeah the fact that the bajorans held him in such high esteem kind of made me willing to overlook a ton of odo's sins. I just figured "well he must have done something really good for them while he was in charge of the station."
@@galactic85 He came from the celestial temple, that allows them to overlook many of his sins.
Garak: all cops are bastards
Julian: even Odo?
Garak: especially Odo, my dear Julian
(also all secret police, including Garak)
That irony would not be lost on Garak I am sure. He is my fav char for sure
At least Garak is less hypocritical
@@lilliansunshine7499 I mean. Less hypocritical, but then Garak wasn't above outright lying to people. So that's kind of a horse apiece.
Garak wasn’t secret police. He was a gardener for an ambassador and became a tailor after the ambassador died tragically of fully natural causes.
Garak was a cheap tailor while Odo was chief of security.
Sokath, his eyes uncovered!
His arms wide
Timba, his arms wide.
Odo, his justice soured
I loved Kira and it really bugged me that she had less empathy for her own mother- who was basically forced into becoming a comfort woman - than a guy who pointed Cardassians towards the people they killed.
And had betrayed her personal trust during the Dominion occupation...
"Odo violating the civil rights of DS9 residents" 🤣🤣🤣
Never thought of it like that. Definitely not wrong tho
And it's almost always played off as a joke
@@macguffinmuffin1156 so obvious someone made a video detailing it's occurrence 😉
@@unematrix Its only tolerated because Bajor isn't part of the Federation, yet.
@@Atilla_the_Fun And also because Sisko did something similar in the pilot where he holds Nog hostage for Quark's help with the merchants guild.
@@patricklyons794
The incident with Nog being held was legitimate. What happened was basically a plea bargain to drop charges. Sisko didn’t just grab Nog and hold him hostage.
One could call Kirk and Spock Nazis too for using a Vulcan mindmeld to telepathically rape Valeris when she invoked her right to silence.
"Mr House will bring order to the New Vegas Strip"
(... Odo and Mr House are both René Murat Auberjonois)
One of the many things that made it the best Fallout game ever.
He was also a weird fascist dedicated to order in an episode of Stargate
Some really fucking weirdly specific typecasting going on
We learn Odo was with Doctor Mora Pol for 7 years, and before that was just sitting in a beaker on a shelf. The end of the war was roughly 10 years after him leaving Doctor Mora to become investigator on Terok Nor. The other changelings certainly view him as a child. I'm curious if he'd actually develop a more complex understanding of morality with more time or if that's the peak of Changeling moral complexity. The absence of conflict preferred over actual justice.
I'd have liked the writers to explore this more because it would have been complex to show the Founders being that way as a result of isolating themselves in the great link rather than just being predisposed to authoritarian rule and the orderly obedience of those under their rule as a matter of their nature.
Yeah, he also viewed 'solids' in a very twisted way because of how Dr. Pol treated him, as an experiment. It's not like he was a regular dude who became a collaborator, he was a child thrust into a place of responsibility with little experience.
I wonder if spending an eon being victims of persecution caused the changelings to have an instinctive fear of conflict in their presence.
Yep. Maybe they are like bees. You can befriend a bee, but stay away from the hive
This is a great reassessment of Odo. It does, however, need to be observed that: much of this was arguably intended by the writers of the series, particularly with Ron Moore's input. Odo's decisions and leanings all stem from an underlying desire for "order" and a form of unity that brings peace - regardless of the various costs incurred by that peace. Within the context of the completed story arc for Odo, it could be argued that it was Odo's nature as a changeling that drove all this. The changelings established an empire because they couldn't trust chaotic, "disordered" non-shapeshifters. Everything they do, is Odo's values taken to a logical conclusion and on a vast scale.
It's worth remembering that, while Odo may partially slot into the Star Trek archetype of the "outsider", the characters in DS9 were always intended to be far more grey and debatable than previous and contemporary Trek series. Odo, in a personal sense to his allies and friends, was likable - but that doesn't mean he was intended to be taken as innocent or good by the viewer. The very fact that Odo ended up becoming a gateway to the Founders trying to conquer and occupy the Federation indicates how grey his character was always intended to be. Remember: Odo never really disagreed with his people's desire for safety or the threat that "solids" might pose to them. He was largely on their side, and this wasn't due to inconsistent or hypocritical portrayal of his character.
Star Trek also did not do enough research on psychology and criminology to get antiheroes right, a common mistake in fiction and film media. I see "morally grey" characters as more like Quark, a bartender, whose nightclub includes a holographic prostitution house. Unlike real pimps, his sex workers are programmed computer simulations, not teen runaways or hostages, so he doesn't beat or cuss them. Like real bartenders, he serves alcohol (or Synthohol, a harmless liquor substitute), listens to his customers' problems and gives useful advice. Odo acts more like a Villain Protagonist, created by cynical screenwriters after the '60s Kennedy, King and Malcolm X assassinations, Watergate and the Vietnamese War. Deep Space Nine is like a Grimdark Star Trek.
I appreciate you writing all of this so I didn't have to.
@@darlalathan6143 WUT that's a pretty pedestrian description of what an anti hero or an villain can be, they come in different flavours all along the spectrum of characters morality.
I loved the original title of this video: All Constables Are Boneless.
Yeah I have a picture of the original title
The treaty with the Cardassians notwithstanding, I think the point of the Federation making a bad deal with the Dominion is a little too harsh. The reason they signed the deal in the first place was because they were faced with assaulting the extremely well fortified planet of Cardassia Prime, which might have ended with the destruction of a vast majority of the Federation Alliance ships still in the fight. Their peace treaty essentially allowed for them to capture the Founder (basically Hitler, and implied to be the one most actively involved in decision making) and push the Dominion back through the wormhole, where they can be more easily stopped from attacking again either through direct contact with the wormhole aliens or another minefield or something. It may have been a return to the pre-war status quo, but it also immediately ended the ongoing genocide of Cardassians (and the founders themselves who were being destroyed by the Section 31 virus), gave the Alpha Quadrant powers time to rebuild and prepare, and ultimately ended further bloodshed.
Plus, I would also add that the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant would not have been sitting idly by while Cardassia Prime fell. The Federation, Klingons, Romulans, etc. never could have gotten concessions on the other side because ultimately the only Dominion territory they occupied was freshly acquired puppet states anyway, and to do anything else it would have required them to attack basically the entire Gamma Quadrant which had been consolidated through 10,000 years of Dominion rule. Not exactly an easy task.
Regarding the founders, it should also be noted that they consider themselves to be of a single mind, not individuals. The female changeling alludes to such in a conversation with Odo, where she talks about ‘the drop becoming the ocean and the ocean becoming the drop.’
So in a way, having any founder on trail is much like having the entire link on trial.
Also, the fact that link subverts your individuality, explains a little as to why Odo abandoned his friends once he started linking on a regular basis. He was simply ‘slipping away’ into the hive mind of the great link. Much like a slower and more voluntary version of borg assimilation.
The Treaty of Versailles was too harsh but the treaty with the Dominion is too gentle.
@@trekjudas Versailles being harsh is a meme (used for fascist propaganda, "Jews sold our country in Versailles"), there were much harsher terms for Turkey and Austria Hungary and even Russia (except for Russia it was to the Central Powers).
Weyoun said I believe that the Dominion has existed for 1 000 years, not 10 000. Also, I think somewhere in the background information it was mentioned that the Dominion is NOT the whole Gamma Quadrant. Just one faction, albeit a rather formidable one. Makes you think what king of cultures have survived being next to the Dominion.
The Dominion is 2000* years old, not 10000. Other than that: Agreed!
Odo's interaction with the female changeling and the link reminded me of teenagers being sexually manipulated by older predators. Despite appearing as an adult I wonder how much social experience Odo actually has after leaving the lab and becoming a member of society. There are no dates to even measure it.
Still, the Bajoran government should have never left someone with fascist regime experience on their resume remain as chief of security on their most important space station.
According to another comment canon is that Odo first served as head of security at the age of 19. There's a throwaway line where another changling calls Odo a child.
Uh yeah, can I get my authoritarian collaborator
B O N E L E S S
Underrated comment
This is the Deep Space Nine content I crave. I need more. The upscaled clips look pretty darn good by the way. It was a good choice to use those.
"Necessary Evil" and "Things Past" are a mini-story arc, DS9 did things like that all the time. In the first episode, we discover that Kira did horrible things for the Bajoran Resistance, and in the latter episode we discover that Odo did horrible things for the Cardassian Occupation.
It's interesting that the show frames Odo as the true neutral third-party, praised by both the Bajorans and Cardassians. I suspect that Odo lent aid to the Resistance while he enforced the laws of the Occupation. In "Necessary Evil" he lets Kira go even though he suspects she's carrying out terrorist acts on behalf of the Resistance. It's easy to overlook, but we have to realize that at that time, Odo barely knows Kira, they haven't worked together and became friends yet. If Odo was willing to look the other way for one Resistance fighter he didn't know, what else did he do for the Resistance?
Odo hates praise and accolades for what he considers merely doing his job. I can't imagine him tooting his own horn at helping the Resistance, and Odo is predisposed toward favouring justice and order due to his Founder heritage, I wouldn't be surprised if Odo found the Occupation unjust and disorderly. Many Bajorans probably know this about Odo, hence why he's so beloved by the Bajoran people.
None of my speculations gainsay or disprove any of the points made in the video. These are just my speculations based on my own obsessive watching of DS9.
Great video, thank you for the wonderful content.
Yes! I totally agree with what you said here about Odo. And, re: Odo helping the Resistance during the Occupation (and during his time working for the Cardassians on Terok Nor)...that actually is what happened. It's written about in the Terok Nor trilogy of novels (prequel novels to the series proper) -- I highly recommend those 3 books for all DS9 fans. Book #3 ties directly into the episodes "Necessary Evil" and "Things Past", plus reveals more about how Odo aided Kira and the Resistance. Definitely worth the read!🙂👍🏻📖
In this case he becomes less of the standard Nazi, and more of an Erwin Rommel Character.
Someone trapped in an unjust system trying to do their best to be a just and honorable person. While also not opposing the system in any major way.
I always saw Odo as definitely NOT innocent, but worthy of forgiveness. While he believed in the kind of "order" that involves imprisonment during the occupation, after being forgiven and accepted by the Bajoran people, we see him be much more subjective and leniant later on (especially to Quark), contrasted with Worf's more militaristic view of security. Odo never becomes perfect, and I would argue that he probably should NOT be chief of security, but I like how the show explores the nuance of making peace with ones enemies.
DS9 was the best Star Trek series, but in the years after it's initial run, I became more and more conflicted by Odo. He was a collaborator and the 'order guy'. The series portrayed Odo as sympathetic and I took it for granted that he was, until I didn't. Watching it now, there are several episodes when I just want to pour salt all over him or something.
Kitty litter would probably work better lol
That's why DS9 is my favorite series. There was good and evil, sure. But also many shades of gray.
He was Just trying to Keep up with The Kardasians.
Great actor though, Rene Auberjonois, RIP.
The death of actors often does nothing to me but it sucked hearing about his death. I miss 90s tv so much.
Odo would literally Stop and Frisk Ferengis on the regular
Probably wouldn't be averse to planting "evidence" either.
@@bkrjayce Pretty sure THAT'S a bridge too far. Considering Odo would have been great at arranging for entrapment, considering his shapeshifting skills, and didn't even resort to that, we can be confident that Odo, for all his faults and irrational dislike of Quark, didn't break the law trying to enforce it.
By season 3 they were true frenemies
@christopherpoff4117 , I think he would go to that length if it got him a confession or more information. I don't think he would do it for false imprisonment or anything serious, though. I love digging up a 3 year old comment section for the hell of it.
I remember one episode Odo was like "Kira people can change you used to be a terrorist" and I was taken back by it. Like her resistance movement definitely resulted in collateral damage that she's not proud of but she's certainly proud of her time fighting against her oppressors and I thought it was wild to classify her as a terrorist. This video makes me think more and more
100% correct. The one thing that didn’t make sense about ds9 was Kira having any affection for odo. He was definitely a collaborator. At the end of “things past” she asks odo if he had ever convicted an innocent person and he says he doesn’t know. Looking at how he handled the 3 bajorans in the episode, he must have convicted innocent people everyday. In that episode the character thrax is supposed to represent odo. At one point thrax sent some bajorans to cardassia for interrogation. Odo must have done that all the time. The Bajorans should have hated Odo. Kira should have been trying to kill Odo during the occupation and should have arrested him the moment the cardassians left the station. This episode did nothing to show why Kira and Odo were close
At one point in the series she calls Odo the most honorable man she ever met. There is no reason she should feel that way. For years he sent bajorans to their death or to be tortured. It’s interesting because the writers of the show obviously see the problem so they try to whitewash what he did but they also have some of the characters mention odo’s duplicity as well.
DS9 is a great show and normally the writers did an amazing job of making sure there weren’t contradictions. Unfortunately with Odo, they show that Odo is a fascist and collaborator and yet still have characters call him an honorable man who was a neutral party. Yet they show him not being neutral at all.
In season seven Laz links with Odo and says that if it wasn’t for Kira Odo would be a founder. Even in season 7 the writers show us that even it meant all his friends were killed and the entire alpha quadrant was enslaved, he wouldn’t care if it weren’t for Kira. This is after seven seasons of character growth. It seems like writers wanted it both ways. They wanted us to believe Odo was a good guy but then did everything they could to show us Odo really was just a collaborator who was infatuated with Kira.
They had a lot of high level collaborators in the Bajoran government according to that one episode with flashbacks to Kira's past as a revolutionary working on Terok Nor. Yet Bajor(or at least Kira) seemed to view literal sex slaves as deserving less empathy than people who turned in fellow Bajoran's for profit.
Honestly of all the shows 'collaborator's' who get shown in the show I think Kira's mom is the most offensive. The idea that essentially a sex slave wanting her family to live is somehow a worse sort of collaboration to Kira than Odo's is what really bothers me about the shows depiction of 'who is at fault'. It not only ties into the idea that sex on a woman's part inherently has manipulation involved(as you point out with the female changeling)which is faulty and kind of sexist. It also at best places sex workers who sell their services to oppressors as just as bad if not worse than cops. But that even if you have no choice and your families life is on the line than you're worth of less understanding than someone who caused literal deaths. Not saying her mom couldn't have joined the resistance. Only that Kira viewing her mother as deserving death more than Odo because she doesn't fight Dukat knowing that Dukat can protect her family as very flawed and shows Kira's view on women isn't good. According to Kira even under the most horrible of circumstances women still have 'a choice' and 'have influence' over their abusers. Man this ended up as a rant huh.
So, this exposes Kira as having internalized sexism and fanatical religious and political views, hence her terrorism. Star Trek tends to show a naive view of politics, probably from apolitical writers and insufficient research and technical advisors.
@@darlalathan6143 But we don't know if misogyny is a core tenet, or even a peripheral principle, of Bajoran religion. That the last two Kais were women, honestly disproves to me the idea that Bajorans hold misogynistic values. I do think you're right, that it's sourced from the writers' conceit.
YESS! I've been rewatching ds9 and odo felt weird to me, im so glad you elaborated on this. i think that the morally grey nature of ds9 meant that these aspects of odo could have been explored in a really interesting way, its a pity that they didn't.
I'm pretty sure this was all intentional with his character. A study of "law and order" vs "justice". The fact that such a fascist by nature species would make the perfect cop us the entire point.
But they did sugar coat him a lot, and it never made any sense that Kira would ever reciprocate his love.
That's where things kinda went off the rails.
Trek of the era kinda had that problem. Weird romantic matchups that made zero sense and were really awkward in the final season or so. Sometimes even undoing character building and relationships that were great beforehand (Seven and The Doctor in favor of Seven and Chakotay).
These weird relationships are always the worst thing about the final season.
In Odo's case; it effectively excused everything crappy about him at the expense of Kira's character, broke both of them, and muddled a lot of ds9s message being told through them. Especially Odo.
After Odo's betrayal in the first 6-episode dominion arc of season 6, the way Kira would just forgive him after a one night conversation in Dax's wardrobe was such a mockery. There is no coming back from what Odo did in that time, directly leading to Rom's arrest and the derailment of the entire plan. Yes he came to his senses in the end but despite Kira's repeated warnings and his promise to not link... he broke the promise. He broke trust at such a critical time. I do not know how it is possible to come back from that - maybe one can still be acquaintances but to trust someone enough again to be lovers? Come on.
So his thesis is that Odo is actually Lawful Evil, despite appearing Lawful Neutral.
Great analysis, but I felt it would have been fair to bring up that Odo was secretly a carrier of Section 31's biological weapon, and the Great Link was going to die if they didn't surrender. I still concede Odo's motivation for staying with the link was self interest, but his motive for returning at all/at that time was to prevent planetary genocide.
He could've linked temporarily with the Great Link to adminster the cure then return to DS9 but he didn't.
@@juanmiguellucero3578 This. Right here. Exactly.
@@renegadecut9875 NOOO!!! I don't believe it! Despite the mountain of irrefutable evidence your offering I refuse to believe
it!!
@@juanmiguellucero3578 Yeah I think it's fair to say Odo was probably glad to have the excuse...
i think part of the reason why he wanted to stick with the great link is try to teach his people to not be so paranoid and maybe mellow them out. remember that changlings, while able to assume humanoid form, don't really get them. note that martok changling, who spent years among klingons couldn't understand why gowron decided to fight worf instead of just having him killed.
at least, that's my take on it.
Doesn't this mean that Kira was awfully forgiving and forgetful given Odo's role? I mean, it's pretty disgusting she was ultimately able to overlook all of this.
Kira getting together with Odo is the worst thing that ever happened to her character.
@@renegadecut9875 maybe I'm an incel but I was disappointed when he left her xD
@@renegadecut9875 I kind of wonder if the writers were trying to make some kind of comparison between the two. Like, sure, one's a cop and the other is a freedom fighter/terrorist but hey they're both extremists, so they're basically the same, right? I mean I can absolutely see 90s Star Trek writers trying to get that message across. Also you forgot to mention that episode Far Beyond The Stars where Sisko hallucinates that he's a 20th century science fiction writer and Odo is the editor who won't do anything to help him when his story is rejected for having a black hero.
@@etanaedelman9011 But there Quark was a borderline communist, which err doesn't correspond with his character.
I see this as one of the times the show allows Kira to be flawed. Odo fits exactly what she always says she defines as her enemy ("collaborator" is a tricky word, since he's not Bajoran he's not betraying his own people, he's just a third party who at least sometimes helps the enemy). Even leaving their romantic relationship out of it (cause she's good friends with him for years before that), she gives him a lot more of a pass than she reserves for anyone else -- this is a woman who tries to kill her own mother just for having Stockholm Syndrome!
Some of her looking the other way could be because he did save her life in "Necessary Evil," and by doing so showed active support for the Resistance. But there's no doubt he supported the Occupation at least as much as other collaborators she killed, not to mention what he did in Season 6 during the Dominion occupation (maybe she gave him a slight pass on that cause she was temporarily a collaborator herself). The writers did admit they wussed out on actually writing a scene to explain how she forgives him for that.
And Garak, the other other best character...
The first best character.
This is a great breakdown of Odo as a character, but I can't help but feel a tinge of disappointment when you called him "Tuxedo Odo" rather than "TuxeOdo."
better yet...TuxedOdo
I always did like Kira, she's a walking fireball
Best character, even if she gets saddled with Odo.
@@renegadecut9875 hey hey, it could have been Dukat
@@oaa-ff8zj Gross!
@@renegadecut9875 Their romance seemed forced to me, I just didn't feel like they had that kind of chemistry. I would of liked to of seen Kira end up with a Cardassian (that was not a part of the occupation) as a symbol of her overcoming her hate
I always find it weird that Star Trek is so heavily committed to "planet of hats" style writing where you can sum up an entire state and culture in a few lines. It seems like it was particularly severe in the old series, has it gotten better over time?
About the Planet of Hats, I always wondered what trait(s) humans are known for among non-humans.
@@snowblood74 DS9 kind of answers that - Other races view Humans, and the Federation that they represent (Even though the Federation is technically multi-planet, most aliens seem to connect the Federation, Star Fleet, and Homosapiens as one in the same) as a bunch of naïve do-gooders. Some think they're just a nuisance, some describe them almost as a more benevolent type of Borg (On one occasion the comparison is made very directly).
DS9 made humans much more complex and less vanilla.
Also Cardassians are given lots of depth, they’re more than mere fascists
@@oaa-ff8zj That's partly why they're my favorite alien species. A lotta depth thete.
“The Dominion is a land of contrasts.” Perfection!
It's this kind of depth and nuance that makes Deep Space Nine remain relevant, even with all the mental shortcuts, and I'm still glad for it.
Kira and Odos relationship always felt like a betrayal of her character. And gross from a stalker vibe
"Be a fascist and I'll let you get gooey with me" - Trump 2020
That explains melting Rudy
A imagine in my mind just formed
I can't help but love Odo! I think René Murat Auberjonois did an excellent job of portraying him. To bad he passed away. I will miss not seeing him on TV.
Knowing DS9's ethos of exploring grey areas, I feel like Odo addresses something most people are uncomfortable considering, which is the possibility that all human society is at least a little bit fascist. The practice of law enforcement is always going to incline its practitioners to fascist thinking, as we see with Odo. Even primal impulses such as the need for security, order, justice, and a dozen other different things will always tempt people to accept fascist policies. Likewise, there will always be shades of fascism in things like the rule of law and the monopoly on violence held by sovereign governments, but that doesn't mean those things aren't beneficial when properly applied. All this leads me to believe that with Odo the show is saying fascism is a part of us, one that we need to account for and handle responsibly.
Essentially what I'm saing is there will always be people like Odo, who value the things he does, but so long as they are held accountable and listen to different points of view they can live in and fulfill their role in liberal democratic society properly. It's the job of the Siskos, and the Kiras, and even the Quarks of the world to see that this happens, and in turn to listen to the Odos when the time comes. In this way all perspectives can come together in the public sphere to arrive at optimal compromises.
I think a mitigating factor for Odo's behaviour is how young he is. It's easy to miss because the actor is comfortably middle age at the start of the show, but Odo himself is barely in his 20s at the start of the show, and would have been a teenager when he started working for the Cardassians. As human(oid)s we have an instinctive level of empathy towards other human(oid)s, but for Odo, this has been a learned and acquired behaviour, (although it is interestingly a consistent part of his character that he is one of the more empathetic characters towards non-humanoids: the "Pup" virus, the proto-universe, the baby changeling, the infant Jem'Hadar, etc.).
I think when it comes to his behaviour towards the Dominion in the later seasons you need to consider that he's playing something of a long game. He wants to understand his people, but he also wants them to understand what he knows about "the solids". My reading of the end of Odo's arc was that he was able to do this, by essentially dissolving himself completely into the Great Link; he sacrificed his life as a distinct individual so that every changeling would incorporate into themselves the part of Odo that found it possible to peacefully coexist with the solids (in so doing ending the war, and probably having drastic consequences on the gamma quadrant side too).
Yeah, Odo going back and saving his people is what will keep the Dominion out of the Alpha Quadrant.
Welp, I guess I'm rewatching DS9 now
The right decision.
Same.
...After The Clone Wars, though. All hail best Ahsoka.
Tempted to do the same, although the question is whether I will ever manage to get to the end. I ragequit back in the day not long after Jadzia was killed (fuck you, Rick Berman) and it was all stupid Pa Wraith nonsense.
@@Sarcasmhime I prefer Ezri in every aspect except Romance. It's a mixed bag.
The religion shit is stupid though.
@@renegadecut9875 Season 5 episode 22, "Children of time" showed the lengths Odo would go to, just to preserve his potential relationship with Kira. Wiping out a thriving colony, (made up of descendents of the Defiant crew) from ever having existed.
Sure, this was a future version of Odo and status quo is God and all that,
but that ending still chills me to the bone.
Honestly, besides the apologia this is all what makes ds9 slap. Like especially the unionization episode, there's a very conscious choice to have to cop be a fucking cop even when it's so obviously shitty. I love that this show is will to go at least to some lengths to show Odo as a bastard and Kira as a hero because you know in most other media this would not happen. Like ok Odo is still very sympathetic but this isn't Dirty Harry, yno?
I was skill a kid when "Deep Space 9" was on, so I didn't pick up most, if any, of its ideological content; I do however felt it was weird that Odo, as a cop, would just break into anyone's room, change into any random object, and then lay in wait for the moment they would do anything illegal. That's a whole other level of privacy violation.
0:24 “And Odo. The other other best character.”
“And Nog. The other other best character.”
In all honesty we could keep going.
It's also super weird that Kira's willing to date Odo after all this, but she's *really* fast to call her own mother a collaborator when she learns about the forced prostitution.
It always bugged me that Odo decided to return to his people at the end of the series, for the very reason you pointed out. Delivering the cure, okay, fine, but remaining there to change their views on Solids? The female changeling had such an easy time swaying HIM to the side of the Founders, this plan is ridiculous!
also Odo's defenders love to compare him to Garak, wich is very different i think
Garak was introduced as a morally ambiguous guy since the beggining unlike Odo, who was supposed to have a superior sense of justice, also Garak stated his disagreement with cardassia's goberment, and he helped the federation on the war because he knew it was the right thing to do, not only because of one person
Is it not time for the Sisko to return?
There's a rumour that they're trying to make a Star Trek: Sisko TV series, but the sticking point is that Avery Brooks won't return unless they also bring back Cirroc Lofton, which CBS doesn't want to do. Normally, I don't believe such rumours, but that's such an Avery Brooks thing to do that it suddenly becomes so much more credible.
Sisko really feels like the kind of hero we could use in the world right now.
The union episode was great, need to revisit that. Great video, as always.
Rommunism.
@@renegadecut9875 Ha! Perfect. :)
@@renegadecut9875 "Workers of Ferenginar unite!"
I literally watched "What we left behind' last night, so this is an interesting and well done coda to DS9. Every little thing that I ever had doubts about Odo was beautifully stated here- and connected to how the character was constructed. Even in 'Far Beyond The Stars' Odo is a status quo supporter, even though he knows he's wrong. That bit about The Founders: In universe, just as the Founders have their territory and fascist state, the Federation's own semi fash henchpeople, Section 31, has the means and commitment to absolutely destroy the Founders with the morphogenic virus- there was a cure, but 31 has shown they have ability to create another one- indeed, that they may actually have back ups, just in case. That's hammer that presumably keeps the Founders in place- the knowledge that the Federation will absolutely directly harm them.
This was an amazing video, I absolutely loved it; I never really put the pieces together this way myself, but it's so obvious in hindsight now
(What's funny is the DS9 Relaunch side of the Litverse tried to go ahead with the whole "Odo changing the Dominion" thing, and the only way they could even manage it was to have literally every other Founder but Laas have an existential crisis and leave the Great Link)
Harvey Dent said it correctly when he stated "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself as the villain."
Lol actor who played changeling in Chimera was also playing General Martok.
Yup. J.G. Hertzler is a veteran Trek actor. He also played a Vulcan in the DS9 series premiere, a Hirogen martial artist on Voyager, two others Klingon on Enterprise, and an alien captain on Lower Decks.
@@renegadecut9875 What did you think of Lower Decks, by the way?
Was always hoping you’d take a deep dive at Odo. Some great points made here, and I still struggle with liking odo as a character but hating so many of his choices and skewed sense of justice.
“One seldom recognizes the devil when he is putting his hand on your shoulder.”
Odo is the archetypal Authoritarian.
Throughout the series he justifies his actions by gesturing to the idea that he isn't "really" working for the Cardassians, or the Dominion, or even for the Bajorans or the Federation, but rather for some universal, supposedly transcendent form of "justice" and "order" it's self.
The inescapable fact that Justice is sometimes opposed to order, (best illustrated while he is working under the Cardassians, in my opinion), is one of the things that make his character so deep.
It's one of the inherent contradictions of his ideology, and perhaps also of authoritarianism more generally.
Great video, as usual!
How many years have you stored up this rant? I've been watching and enjoying your videos for years and this by far one of your most passionate presentations.
I actually related to Odo a lot back in the 90's when DS9 originally aired, but in recent years, partly due to my changing politics and partly due to conversations with friends, my feelings about Odo have turned.
@@renegadecut9875 D'oh, at first I read "changeling politics".
My key takeaway from this video is Kardashians even in fantasy future stories are rich, fascistic pricks. Also All Cats Are Beautiful.
But ...
Well ...
I don't know...
stop being mean :(
on the other hand, very well argued and presented. :)
An angle that might complicate the idea of Odo being a collaborator is whether or not he was recruited by the Cardassians while he was still a "child". I think it could be argued that he did not have an ideal childhood, and depending on when the occupation started, he might not have been mature enough to recognize right and wrong beyond what he was told, let alone to deal with the traumatic infancy he had. What I liked about his character's development is how he grappled with his own ideas of order and justice as the series progressed. DS9 was such a complex show.
Odo was sent out into the galaxy hundreds of years prior to the events of DS9. The Female Changeling only narrowed it down to "centuries ago." Odo was found in 2337. He was recuited by Gul Dukat in 2365. Even if we start the clock at when he was found, which is a bit dubious, he was about 28.
@@renegadecut9875 That's true, but since he never refers to anything that happened before he was found, and given how Dr. Mora talked about his time in the lab, I don't think he was actually conscious or sapient until the Bajoran experiments; like, only a single episode, yeah, but compare Laas talking about his history to Odo talking about his (since they were sent out at the same time)
Though your core point still holds true that yeah, he had more than enough time between discovery and signing on with Dukat to form a moral consciousness
@@renegadecut9875 I would instead start the clock at when he stopped being a lab sample, and turned into a creature with understanding, 7 years after his discovery (according to Memory Alpha). Drifting through space, or being stuck in a tube and poked at, doesn't give one an understanding of right and wrong.
That's an adult by human standards, I don't know about Changeling maturation. I do think that being raised as a science project before having your home be invaded by space war criminals makes it difficult to assign individual responsibility to Odo for his actions. I definitely don't count the centuries of being a consciousless blob in the voids of space towards his age or maturity, because we don't learn ethics in a vacuum.
Kira is the best, though.
To add to that complexity... consider that Kira was also a child when she became a terrorist. This further strengthens the idea that their actions during the Occupation are kind of a mirror image of each other, as suggested by the endings of "Necessary Evil" and "Things Past."
I'm curious how old Odo is during DS9. We know they live 100s of years, based on Children of Time. I'm wondering if we saw a toddler wandering around enforcing the law during the entire time period, but we never knew cause he can look like an adult.
I hope this gets enough momentum and traction to re-enforce a remaster of the series should be done!
Also, could you do
In the Pale Moonlight?
I would LOVE to see your view of Sisko after this.
great stuff!
This channel is literally always making videos about what I’ve been just thinking about. I love it.
Your analysis of Odo as a bones-deep (well, goo-deep) lover and upholder of order made it very interesting for me to rewatch “Children of Time,” the DS9 episode where the Defiant crew (eg, all the main characters but Quark) crash on the planet where they find their descendants from the colony they were forced to established 200 years prior… That colony’s Odo, who is 200 years older and much more in touch with his vulnerability and humanity (visualized literally by him having a more formed face) ends up choosing to help the Defiant escape the planet and erase 8000 inhabitants from existence, because it saves Kira’s live and gives present Odo a chance to be with her.
You can argue if that’s the right decision, but in my mind it’s a decision Odo makes from a very personal place, and it deliberately upsets an established order (a peaceful, centuries-old society) to satisfy a personal goal. It’s a big change from the Odo we know- and it took 200 years, a deep personal loss, and life as part of a simple, peaceful agrarian society to make that change.
15:30 Eh, I feel iffy about this one. It's like saying that an addict is at fault for their addiction because they choose to keep taking drugs. As a former addict, I related to Odo's inability to deny the greatest pleasure he'd ever known, even though not doing so would result in serious consequences for both himself and his friends. That's just what addiction is. To someone who feels very little pleasure in their life, the knowledge of the ability to just instantly access great pleasure is like poison. I began missing opportunities, incurring consequences, and disappointing friends the moment I started taking opiates when I was depressed.
I truly love that you treat this with the same level of seriousness as one of your essays on late stage capitalism.
I whole heartily agree. Even while watching DS9 during the initial series run--I always felt the Founders got away with mass murder. And Odo seemed like the greatest risk to security, as well as being somewhat fascist in his belief systems. Despite Rene's wonderful performance, I thought it strange how well "liked" the character is. Same with Garek, who I'm sure committed incredible atrocities as a Cardassian intelligence agent. What exactly was the show saying? That despite anyone's criminal background/history (including murder) that if said individual simply change sides or opinion all is forgiven? A very dark position DS9 and other Trek series always takes from time to time.
I really enjoy your videos; however when you cover Star Trek it just makes my day better.
"There's a saying we had in the resistance - if you're not fighting them, you're helping them" - Maj Kira to Odo
👍🏿 One of your best videos yet, Leon!
Kira never forgot the iron fist of the occupation just as Sisko never forgot what it meant to be aBlack man. That these things further informed their already-strong characters shows why *they* were the heroes of the show. ✊🏿
"The Dominion is a land of contrasts." Brilliant
I love this right after Obama was like " look, I killed all these people because I didn't want to seem weak, not because I wanted to."
Damn good points across the board. As an awkward teen, Odo was my favorite character, but that's very much shifted now in favor of Kira, Garak and Jadzia.
What's that piano music near the end? I really like it.
Music comes from a paid subscription to Epidemic Sound. I can't remember the title offhand.
@@renegadecut9875 Ahh, alright, thanks for the reply anyways.
See, I think that "Things Past" was a "mea culpa" on behalf of the writers, as they realized they had implied Odo didn't get his hands dirty working for the Cardassians up until that point. And they needed to set the record straight that "yes, he absolutely did. There's no way he couldn't have functioning in the position he did, (unless he was using the role to actively subvert Cardassian rule, like smuggling as many bajorans as he could out, but the series had been equally clear he wasn't doing that.)
Further, I think that honestly Odo, (and Quark) were meant in the early seasons to be much more morally ambiguous characters, people who, as opposed to the Starfleet officers, you weren't sure were totally trustworthy. And as much as DS9 was the series of its era that tried the hardest to buck the late Roddenberry/Berman "No conflicts among the main characters" model, the day to day, episode to episode writing did sand down and bleach out those characters harsher aspects. Quark transitioned more easily, as his criminal ways seemed largely benign: he was just smuggling goods out behind customs backs. (His labor practices were his more negative character aspects to survive into later seasons, but even those were taken head-on and dealt with by the writers.) Odo though, just by his background, could not be as easily white washed.
Finally, I had always assumed that the wormhole prophet incident in "Sacrifice of Angels" had decimated the Gamma Quadrant dominion fleet, and that the federation did occupy the gamma quadrant militarily for a while. I know there's no evidence for this in the show, but it would have been ridiculous for them not to have. Like, The dominion could have restarted the war a week later otherwise.
yeah, ds9 has this thing with a heck of a lot characters. literal torturer and assasyn Garak, terrorist Kira (i do like they didn't look the other way with this and kira being a terrorist doesn't have any extreme moral jugdement over my part, but the series does play a lot, even more than with odo, with how morally gray is that fact), genocider Dukat (there's a moment when it seems that want to pair with major Kira and it's weird), sisko crossing moral lines. the problem as i see it is that it wants to have the cake and eat, which it's good because complex and ambiguos tv is fine, but it's also bad because sometimes it kind of falls short and creates false moral equivalences. like duet, THE genocide chapter of ds9 puts much more weight in boo boo the boreaucrat who served in a labor camp and felt guilt that in the actual extermination of the bajorans cause this is tv and it needs to have drama and twists and fuckity fuck.
The portrayal of Kira as a freedom fighter/terrorist and making her one of the good guys and constantly discussing the details of the cardasian occupation is a big reason why I love the show so much
Remember when sisko radiated an entire planet for no reason and didn’t fade any consequences.
@@elisecunliffe1123 the worst part is that he feels more guilty for killing a romulan senator who's willing to let a fascist theocracy take control of an entire quadrant and a petty criminal in order to save countless of lives. eddington and the maquis were kicking a weak enemy of the federartion in it's teeth and because of the fault of the federation
So star trek always had this political weight in the show? That is so Awesome!
I highly recommend you check out episode 16 of season 6 of Deep Space Nine, "In the Pale Moonlight"
Oh gosh yes- DS9 had plenty to say to about many things- racism, capitalism (!!!) able-ism(!!!) sexuality (somewhat clumsily) faith & morality, and how politics works. It holds up, even now!
Yes. Even from the very beginning, Star Trek the original series, ST has always been highly political. :)
I can also recommend Steve Shive's channel, he has a lot of ST videos focusing on political aspects.
@@marocat4749 "Past Tense" parts 1 and 2. I saw that episode recently and it hit so close to home. DS9 straight up predicted the future sometimes.
If you haven't seen the video "Berman Trek" on this channel, go doooooooo iiiiiiiiiit!
This is exactly the kind of content I come to Renegade Cut for. Well done, as usual, Sir!
I'm just relieved we're not litigating the morality of my favorite character, Garak.
But no, no, no see? These two are my favorites because I love deeply flawed boys you can't fault me for this.
Garak is _interesting._ Being permanently mindscrewed and deeply broken as the result of being an intelligence officer of a fascist regime, constitutionally incapable of being direct or telling the truth, gunning for whatever allegiance will keep him alive, desperate for basic affection is definitely not boring.
Kind of the other side of the coin to Odo's affiliation with the Cadassian Empire, I think. Not everyone can shrug that kind of thing off without changing.
This an Media Zelot's breakdown of Dukat. Today's releases are full of DS9 gems.
I listen to a podcast called Androids and Assets that does a good job of delving into how imperialist the federation is, especially in DS9, and how ACAB is still very true for Odo
This is why DS9 is the best. The characters have depth and nuance.
DS9 is amazing but it's not my favorite Trek. I feel like that's an unusual position-most people I know either swear by DS9 or they do not like it at all. Surely I cannot be alone, though!
EDIT: Also Rene Auberjonois was the best.
I would recommend The Pensky File's DS9 Wrap Up video.
No matter what you think of Kira x Odo just be glad that Berman and De’marco didn’t get their version of it. Kira x Dukat 🤮
YES! I just finished watching ds9. i am ready for this video!
What did you think of the series and this video?
Reminds me of Javert- the spans of time that Les Mis took place over means Javert was a cop under like 4 different regimes but just as much of a cop for them all, and he’s a really fascinating character. Huh this explains why my Les Mis discord server is full of DS9 fans
I started watching this like 10 minutes after I woke up, and never having watched much Star Trek, ended up very confused bc all the names blurred together. Got it eventually, lmao. Great video
Quark was great comedic relief for that show.
Star Trek geeks were no outsiders, the series were mainstream and Star Trek was one of the most favourable franchises on TV of the 20th century. Top-ranking politicians made references to Century in their speeches, a space shuttle was named after the Spaceship Enterprise and pop culture is full of references.
But today one trys to make ST more mainstream.
I think Odo deserves some sympathy. He "grew up" with a Bajoran "father" who he felt was torturing him. He never felt like he belonged or truly understood humanoids. The Cardassians used him as a pawn to show they had a "fair unbiased" cop instead of a Cardassian cop. The fact that the Bajorans forgave his collaboration would indicate to me that they felt for his predicament and didn't see him as irredeemable. In a way, Odo was the property of the Cardassians. His father was ordered to torture him so they could use him for entertainment and later to present a fair and balanced police presence on Terok Nor. After he is free of the Cardassians he is shown to grow a lot with Kira. He teaches Kira that she can still do good from within using the law, and she teaches him that law and order aren't the only things that matter. He is certainly flawed, but he was able to overcome not only his upbringing but his nature. Even though he never quite gets over his love of order, for a member of his species he is downright laid back.
While I liked Odo, I always hated the relationship he had with Kira because of... pretty much all of this? (Like, obviously, as I got older, I started being able to put words to feelings and explain why/how these things bothered me, but even as a kid? I distinctly really remember going THERE IS NO REASON FOR HER TO LIKE HIM, HE'S NOT A *GOOD* PERSON.)
And even now, Odo is still a largely sympathetic character (because of René Auberjonois's acting, mostly -- I love and miss René), but there are huge elements of the writing where you can tell they didn't want to explore it too much in-depth because they'd have to actually make him... less sympathetic? And possibly make people not like a core cast member. (And, possibly for the reasons you outlined him existing in the fashion he did, making the 'outsider' seem like a Bad Guy would've made all the Outsider Humans watching DS9 have to rethink themselves, oops.)
Anyway, good video! I always appreciate a DS9 video; DS9 is one of my absolute favourite Treks, and it has been for a long time.
And in the Star Trek Online game it is revealed that Odo has been manipulated by the great link.
The only question remaining is, why did the writers (and, presumably, Paramount execs) want to create such an immoral character without ever putting him in a situation in which he is held responsible? Like a soap opera, this series just plods onward, episode after episode, sometimes confronting issues in an interesting way, but completely ignoring others.
Im curious. What was your reasoning behind the title change on this video?
It wasn't getting clicks through recommendations. I like the original title, and it's more in line with the topic and tone of the video, but it's inscrutable to the average viewer who doesn't watch my channel and/or doesn't get the joke.
@@renegadecut9875 Ah, that makes sense. Thank you.
Odo was the perfect example of how moral ambiguity played out on DS9. In the end only O’Brien was truly spotless.
The fun fact is that the bajorans actually consider him as at least a lesser evil wich probably mean the Cardassians security officers before him must have been so much worse. Does'nt excuse him completely but it give some perspective on who he was. He only want order but not that much honors so he's far less unredeemable than Dukat who wich to be praised for being an narcissic despote.