Great video, especially Appreciate the details on your reloading process. Helps to understand the variables better. Love all the detail you put in to the video
Thank you for explaining your loading process. Many top shooters perform certain steps (like neck turning) to remove the possibility of a flaw. There is no question that there are less dimensional and composition variations in premium brass (like Lapua and Norma). Your grouping data reveal enough variation to conclude that the variables of powder, primer, and projectile produce significant differences when measured by group size. Those may mask the small differences produced by neck turning. The true test of neck turning is in a "developed" load. Once you find a good performing combination of components it is difficult to make it "better". The use of a "factory crimp die" where you rotate 120 degrees and perform three light applications will do more for you than neck turning.
8:35 “to be sure that were offending everyone “:) I’m not sure yet if I’m offended, so if you could try a little harder in the next video, id appreciate it:) great video! Love all the details! I probably won’t remember half of them but it’s good information to know. Thanks!
Can you perform a test with less variables. Use a single dialed in accurate load, 3 Five shot groups of turned, 3 Five shot group of non turned. If their is any correlation, it will be obvious, this also allows for some minor shooter error.
I think neck turning may be mandatory if a reloader plans to use a neck turning mandrel to expand the necks and set final neck tension. My experiments with the neck turning mandrel and non-turned brass resulted in brass that required a lot more force to seat the bullet and produced more run-out in the rounds. Are you sure you're really getting .002" of neck tension after turning the brass? After turning and sizing the outside diameter with your FL die, the inside diameter of your necks should be larger and the neck tension should be somewhat less than .002".
Sure, but the effect of the expander (neck tension) depends on how much work it does as well as brass spring back. Ed Mobley discussed this in one of the 6.5 Guys videos regarding his use of the turning mandrel and a switch to a .287 bushing.
I am not sure that while annealing and probably removing less than .001" of total material that it is changed that much. When using annealed brass the spring back is very minimal.
@@njgrplr2007 If I remember correctly the 6.5 Guys said that if you are using an expander mandrel to set your neck tension you need to order a slightly tighter bushing for your bushing die because if the expander mandrel doesn't move the brass enough the brass would simply spring back and the step would be wasted. A bushing that was tight enough before neck turning may not be after neck turning if you take off a lot of material.
I am sure that it depends on caliber some what. The 6.5 creed tends to loose primer pockets before necks split. But I am just removing enough to make it even, leaving as much as possible. Also ask yourself which is more important more reloads or more consistent. Different people will answer that question differently. It doesn't mean they are wrong, it's just what is most important to them.
If your neck turning for a factory chamber then you are increasing the gap between the case neck and the wall of the chamber and that can negate any advantage of extra concentric brass because the case lays in the bottom of the chamber in a sloppy factory chamber . Also you don't want to turn off too much brass for a factory chamber just a skim neck turn is all you need . Clean up about 75% only . The trick to get the neck turn advantage is partial neck sizing so a small section of the case neck is never sized . Using a Redding body die and a Lee collet die or a Bushing neck sizer die . The small second shoulder remains full chamber diameter for the life of the case . Mainly only suitable for bolt action rifles .
I am having the same problem with velocity consistency my self with my .300WM had a few people tell me neck tension is poor and a few others told me to leave h4350 alone its to inconsistent for precision shooting.... any thoughts? And would trimming my case to the max O/A length help with neck tension?
Hi Shawn, The case necks are not very long on 300 WM so I do think that consistent neck tension is part of the challenge. I haven't really used H4350 very much for 300WM but its basically the best powder for 6.5 creedmoor and other popular PRS rounds. Not sure why anyone would label H4350 "inconsistent." For heavier projectiles 220+ gr you get higher velocities out of slower powders. I am not sure that only trimming to max would make that big of a difference.
I'm curious on how do you weight the powder? The SD seems too high and looking at all your reloading process, it should be mostly in the single digits, maybe a more precise weight will improve the SD (along with a more temp stable powder). I use in my process a lab scale that goes to 0.001g and my SDs improved a lot after introducing it.
I am using a waow scale that resolves down to .02 gr. It's the brass mostly. Check out next weeks video with Peterson brass had some ES of 5. With extruded powders I can resolve pretty much down to 1 kernel of powder.
Sir, question regarding the Sinclair Expander Mandrel. Do you use carbide or stainless steel? It seems that the carbide is .000.5 smaller than stainless steel. Thank you in advance for your help and all the good videos.
I am so confused here. What are the tolerances from Hornady in their manufacturing process? Instead of standard deviation what is the probability of you shooting the next bullet in the same hole? There are so many factors that determine where that bullet ends up, the PROBABILITY to do an exact repeat of the previous shot goes out the window when it’s a human who is the operator. My half million dollar cnc laser cutting machine has a one half thousandth tolerance. What does our military say about all this? They surely has more time and money to spend on this than any of us do.
Hello mi friend. Interesting video. If you want to be careful about what you want. It's what you want. An you want the best. Thanks for sharing an ya time. ATVB to you an yours.
You need to do some proper statistical analysis--the first thing you need are larger sample sizes. Shooting one three or five shot group doesn't give you a way of estimating the variance between average velocity and/or group size. If you are only interested in velocity, then shooting 5 rounds at each load gives you an estimate of the velocity and the variance. Then when comparing NT vs no NT results, you have a linear regression situation. But I'm not sure what exactly you'll be estimating. These are just some of my thoughts coming from a retired biostatistican.
@@FullSendPrecision I just read about a new solution called Brass Juice on another thread earlier today. It seems like it was created to clean well in a wet tumbler without the pins. It also claims to work well in an ultrasonic cleaner.
Great video, especially Appreciate the details on your reloading process. Helps to understand the variables better. Love all the detail you put in to the video
Thank you for explaining your loading process. Many top shooters perform certain steps (like neck turning) to remove the possibility of a flaw. There is no question that there are less dimensional and composition variations in premium brass (like Lapua and Norma). Your grouping data reveal enough variation to conclude that the variables of powder, primer, and projectile produce significant differences when measured by group size. Those may mask the small differences produced by neck turning. The true test of neck turning is in a "developed" load. Once you find a good performing combination of components it is difficult to make it "better". The use of a "factory crimp die" where you rotate 120 degrees and perform three light applications will do more for you than neck turning.
David - can you PM me the crimp die method? Thanks!
I love his videos , pure data guy
8:35 “to be sure that were offending everyone “:) I’m not sure yet if I’m offended, so if you could try a little harder in the next video, id appreciate it:) great video! Love all the details! I probably won’t remember half of them but it’s good information to know. Thanks!
This was really good. Thanks for sharing your step by step process also
Can you perform a test with less variables. Use a single dialed in accurate load, 3 Five shot groups of turned, 3 Five shot group of non turned. If their is any correlation, it will be obvious, this also allows for some minor shooter error.
A mopar guy and a shooter?? I thought i thought I was the only one! I have 5 mopars and love em all
I am sure there are a couple of us li ut there. My channel name used to be moparmadman, but I figure this is more appropriate for a reloading channel.
@@BoltActionReloading I have that same metal sign 👍
Thank you, you've saved me so many rounds.
I think neck turning may be mandatory if a reloader plans to use a neck turning mandrel to expand the necks and set final neck tension. My experiments with the neck turning mandrel and non-turned brass resulted in brass that required a lot more force to seat the bullet and produced more run-out in the rounds. Are you sure you're really getting .002" of neck tension after turning the brass? After turning and sizing the outside diameter with your FL die, the inside diameter of your necks should be larger and the neck tension should be somewhat less than .002".
Regardless of the turn the expander sets the ID of the brass.
Sure, but the effect of the expander (neck tension) depends on how much work it does as well as brass spring back. Ed Mobley discussed this in one of the 6.5 Guys videos regarding his use of the turning mandrel and a switch to a .287 bushing.
I am not sure that while annealing and probably removing less than .001" of total material that it is changed that much. When using annealed brass the spring back is very minimal.
@@njgrplr2007 If I remember correctly the 6.5 Guys said that if you are using an expander mandrel to set your neck tension you need to order a slightly tighter bushing for your bushing die because if the expander mandrel doesn't move the brass enough the brass would simply spring back and the step would be wasted. A bushing that was tight enough before neck turning may not be after neck turning if you take off a lot of material.
@@silentbob267 Exactly
Does neck turning cause brass to wear out faster not get as many reload out of it?
I am sure that it depends on caliber some what. The 6.5 creed tends to loose primer pockets before necks split. But I am just removing enough to make it even, leaving as much as possible. Also ask yourself which is more important more reloads or more consistent. Different people will answer that question differently. It doesn't mean they are wrong, it's just what is most important to them.
Great video thanks.
Very interesting thank you
can you add the temperature of your powder before firing pls
Thanks again!
If your neck turning for a factory chamber then you are increasing the gap between the case neck and the wall of the chamber and that can negate any advantage of extra concentric brass because the case lays in the bottom of the chamber in a sloppy factory chamber . Also you don't want to turn off too much brass for a factory chamber just a skim neck turn is all you need . Clean up about 75% only . The trick to get the neck turn advantage is partial neck sizing so a small section of the case neck is never sized . Using a Redding body die and a Lee collet die or a Bushing neck sizer die . The small second shoulder remains full chamber diameter for the life of the case . Mainly only suitable for bolt action rifles .
I am having the same problem with velocity consistency my self with my .300WM had a few people tell me neck tension is poor and a few others told me to leave h4350 alone its to inconsistent for precision shooting.... any thoughts? And would trimming my case to the max O/A length help with neck tension?
Hi Shawn, The case necks are not very long on 300 WM so I do think that consistent neck tension is part of the challenge. I haven't really used H4350 very much for 300WM but its basically the best powder for 6.5 creedmoor and other popular PRS rounds. Not sure why anyone would label H4350 "inconsistent." For heavier projectiles 220+ gr you get higher velocities out of slower powders. I am not sure that only trimming to max would make that big of a difference.
I'm curious on how do you weight the powder? The SD seems too high and looking at all your reloading process, it should be mostly in the single digits, maybe a more precise weight will improve the SD (along with a more temp stable powder). I use in my process a lab scale that goes to 0.001g and my SDs improved a lot after introducing it.
I am using a waow scale that resolves down to .02 gr. It's the brass mostly. Check out next weeks video with Peterson brass had some ES of 5. With extruded powders I can resolve pretty much down to 1 kernel of powder.
Sir, question regarding the Sinclair Expander Mandrel. Do you use carbide or stainless steel? It seems that the carbide is .000.5 smaller than stainless steel. Thank you in advance for your help and all the good videos.
I prefer to use the carbide. There is a very slight difference, but not much.
Thank you@@BoltActionReloading
No problem
I am so confused here. What are the tolerances from Hornady in their manufacturing process? Instead of standard deviation what is the probability of you shooting the next bullet in the same hole? There are so many factors that determine where that bullet ends up, the PROBABILITY to do an exact repeat of the previous shot goes out the window when it’s a human who is the operator. My half million dollar cnc laser cutting machine has a one half thousandth tolerance.
What does our military say about all this? They surely has more time and money to spend on this than any of us do.
i enjoy your videos. but this one seemed silly. with the 3 shot / 4 shot / 5 shot.....
Hello mi friend. Interesting video. If you want to be careful about what you want. It's what you want. An you want the best. Thanks for sharing an ya time. ATVB to you an yours.
I think you were meticulous in your hand loading process, but I'm not sure why you're using magnum primers.
Good luck.
Why would you not say how you worked the necks in a neck turning video? That’s the only reason people clicked on this
Had to turn with a .262 PPC for everything else it’s a waste of time. Just cull out the brass with too much run out and call it a day
Apologies as I may have missed it, but how are you sizing the necks? Expander ball? Mandrel?
NT mandrel
Didn’t show any point to neck turning.
so I just spent the last 20 mins. and the end conclusion is neck turning doesn't help ?
You need to do some proper statistical analysis--the first thing you need are larger sample sizes. Shooting one three or five shot group doesn't give you a way of estimating the variance between average velocity and/or group size. If you are only interested in velocity, then shooting 5 rounds at each load gives you an estimate of the velocity and the variance.
Then when comparing NT vs no NT results, you have a linear regression situation. But I'm not sure what exactly you'll be estimating. These are just some of my thoughts coming from a retired biostatistican.
If you just use a real cleaning solution you can get perfectly clean brass in 30-45 minutes and not peen harden your brass (as much)
Like what?
Andrew M RCBS, frankford arsenal, and Hornady all make wet tumbling /ultrasonic solutions.
@@FullSendPrecision I just read about a new solution called Brass Juice on another thread earlier today. It seems like it was created to clean well in a wet tumbler without the pins. It also claims to work well in an ultrasonic cleaner.