I also live in an airpark without an instrument approach. I don’t file to my airport. I file to a nearby uncontrolled field, cancel when I break out, then vfr to my field.
Nice explanation of the technicalities of IFR flying to an airport without an instrument approach, while in complicated airspace. A couple minor points I would make are: 1) you were planning on flying the LPV, therefore the final approach point is not OPPEY - it is at GS intercept at 1800. And, 2) your MAP for the LPV is not the VDP where you marked green - it is when you reach DA of 540. OPPEY and the VDP apply to the LNAV approach. It just happens, by chance, that OPPEY is also co-located with the GS intercept point at 1800.
You are correct re 1800 ft and OPPEY. Whether they are co-located or not, in an approach with vertical guidance one should not descend until we actually "capture" it, no matter where we are in relation to the FAF. I suppose in the moment of drawing the MAP (actually DA) for the LPV I erroneously marked the VDP. Good pickup!
While I don't know the rules/regulations, it does seem very strange to be issued an approach to an airport that isn't your final IFR destination. I think the way you could/should get around this is just to file Lake City as your final destination, then once you are VFR on the approach, cancel IFR and head towards 15FL. When the tower is open and the airspace is class D you will need to coordinate this with the tower controller assuming you are with 4 nm of the airport. When the tower is closed and airspace is class E, you can just do what you want once you're VFR.
Hi SPVan87, It really is not strange at all to be issued an approach to an airport that isn’t your final destination. Isn’t that what we do when we go do practice approaches in several airports and then come back to our original airport, with or without an approach at the end? If our original and destination airport don’t have an approach then this round robin is exactly the same as my flight except for the fact that mine was not a round robin.
I think the only real problem she had was clearing you for an approach into KLCQ when your flight plan was filed to 15FL. Had you simply changed you destination to Lake City she could’ve cleared you for the approach. In addition,I don’t think they can clear you for a special VFR when you are still on an instrument flight plan. Could you ask for an approach into KJAX if your flight plan was to Saint Augustine or another airport? Probably not.
I have a couple of videos in the pipeline and will do this approach in VFR conditions and publish as well... I believe that is what you would like to see.
Hey Chris, as a Fort Worth Center controller for the last 27 years and a tower/approach controller for 7 years before that you can absolutely do what you requested. I went back and listened to exactly what you said to her initially and I would have just said I want to do the approach and then cancel IFR once get below clouds. I've done that many times in my airspace. We use the 7110.65 as our "bible" of all things air traffic, look in 7-5-1 and that will tell you all about air traffic rules regarding SVFR. Since the tower was closed she may have been hesitant to give you any kind of SVFR clearance due to possible radio coverage issues or something like that. I also have never given a simultaneous approach clearance and SVFR clearance at the same time, not sure how that would work...maintain 2000 until established, cleared RNAV RY28 approach, then cleared SVFR through the Delta surface area, maintain SVFR conditions while in Delta, etc etc I would probably not give that clearance. If the Delta/Echo surface area wasn't reporting less that VFR minima there is no reason for a SVFR clearance unless you state you need it because conditions require it. The magic words for all center controllers though is "Cancel IFR" haha then we don't care what you do......legally of course. :) Also as a relatively new time pilot thanks for the refresher on G/D/E airspace and as an even newer Mooney owner I always am checking your MP/speeds on short final and touchdown. I am still working on getting my landings as smooth as yours.
@frankward67 is right-on here. I think what you have been doing in the past and the phraseology you are using with ATC may be confusing them. The core issue was the original clearance. You did nothing wrong but ATC can not clear you to a place you can not get to IFR (ie there needs to be an approach to that airport or weather reports that allow decent in VFR conditions - because of this the controller issuing the clearance actually had what is called an operational error [an error by ATC]). I believe what you are really intending is an IFR flight plan to a point and then continuing VFR (or SVFR, which of course you can not guaranty being issued). The original clearance should conform to 7110.65 4-2-8 4−2−8. IFR−VFR AND VFR−IFR FLIGHTS a. Clear an aircraft planning IFR operations for the initial part of flight and VFR for the latter part to the fix at which the IFR part ends. To avoid confusion, consider filing to the airport with the IFR approach. That way if weather is bad you can just land there, if weather allows, then you can cancel once in VMC conditions and go about your merry way. If you need the SVFR you can request it once in SVFR conditions but may not cancel IFR unless you are issued the SVFR clearance since you are not in VMC. I hope that makes sense.
Hi Frank, sorry for the delayed reply. Thank you for great your comments. They help view things from ATC side. I have discussed this with both approach and center controllers that I personally know in the area as well. Although I clearly stated that I wanted to do the RNAV 28 with OREHO as the IAF, she was not willing to go out of her comfort zone to clear me for it. Only then is when I brought out my having received that clearance many times prior and SVFR . I have really only needed the SVFR clearance twice in 10+ years and will actually notify the controller that I will need it so they know in advance what my intentions are since SVFR clearances are granted as long as not other IFR traffic is in the surface E. I would not want to surprise ATC either during the approach or when I am ready to cancel IFR and request SVFR at that time. I think that would cause more head scratching and possible denial with an inexperienced controller. What model Mooney do you own? They are fabulous planes!
@@chriskoppel3940 Hello Chirs you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the "comfort zone" statement, if it's a procedure that is not used often or something the controller hasn't ever done, or anybody in the room either :) the controller will probably just say unable. My Mooney is a 1998 M20R Ovation, I've had it for almost 2 years and am loving it. My panel looked a lot like yours did before you went glass. I went glass too and really liking it, I will like it a whole lot more once I get the GFC500 installed in November. I can't wait for that because it's always very iffy if my KFC150 is going to pass the self-test on startup. Thanks for all the videos, I have learned several new things by watching your vids especially as a new Mooney owner.
Hi Frank, The Ovation is a great airplane!! What kind of glass have you installed? I did it in phases which is why I have the 275's. Love the GFC500. Superb autopilot!! I am sure you are doing great landings with 2 years experience with it. I do believe that the Ovation takes a bit more practice to master than the other Mooney models. You have the advantage of seeing both sides - ATC and Mooney pilot!! Great stuff!!
I also live in an airpark without an instrument approach. I don’t file to my airport. I file to a nearby uncontrolled field, cancel when I break out, then vfr to my field.
That also works.
Nice explanation of the technicalities of IFR flying to an airport without an instrument approach, while in complicated airspace. A couple minor points I would make are: 1) you were planning on flying the LPV, therefore the final approach point is not OPPEY - it is at GS intercept at 1800. And, 2) your MAP for the LPV is not the VDP where you marked green - it is when you reach DA of 540. OPPEY and the VDP apply to the LNAV approach. It just happens, by chance, that OPPEY is also co-located with the GS intercept point at 1800.
You are correct re 1800 ft and OPPEY. Whether they are co-located or not, in an approach with vertical guidance one should not descend until we actually "capture" it, no matter where we are in relation to the FAF. I suppose in the moment of drawing the MAP (actually DA) for the LPV I erroneously marked the VDP. Good pickup!
While I don't know the rules/regulations, it does seem very strange to be issued an approach to an airport that isn't your final IFR destination. I think the way you could/should get around this is just to file Lake City as your final destination, then once you are VFR on the approach, cancel IFR and head towards 15FL. When the tower is open and the airspace is class D you will need to coordinate this with the tower controller assuming you are with 4 nm of the airport. When the tower is closed and airspace is class E, you can just do what you want once you're VFR.
Hi SPVan87,
It really is not strange at all to be issued an approach to an airport that isn’t your final destination. Isn’t that what we do when we go do practice approaches in several airports and then come back to our original airport, with or without an approach at the end? If our original and destination airport don’t have an approach then this round robin is exactly the same as my flight except for the fact that mine was not a round robin.
I think the only real
problem she had was clearing you for an approach into KLCQ when your flight plan was filed to 15FL. Had you simply changed you destination to Lake City she could’ve cleared you for the approach. In addition,I don’t think they can clear you for a special VFR when you are still on an instrument flight plan. Could you ask for an approach into KJAX if your flight plan was to Saint Augustine or another airport? Probably not.
Thought provoking real life stuff! Can you do the same approach in daytime VFR for comparison? Thanks.
I have a couple of videos in the pipeline and will do this approach in VFR conditions and publish as well... I believe that is what you would like to see.
👍
Thank you!
Hey Chris, as a Fort Worth Center controller for the last 27 years and a tower/approach controller for 7 years before that you can absolutely do what you requested. I went back and listened to exactly what you said to her initially and I would have just said I want to do the approach and then cancel IFR once get below clouds. I've done that many times in my airspace. We use the 7110.65 as our "bible" of all things air traffic, look in 7-5-1 and that will tell you all about air traffic rules regarding SVFR. Since the tower was closed she may have been hesitant to give you any kind of SVFR clearance due to possible radio coverage issues or something like that. I also have never given a simultaneous approach clearance and SVFR clearance at the same time, not sure how that would work...maintain 2000 until established, cleared RNAV RY28 approach, then cleared SVFR through the Delta surface area, maintain SVFR conditions while in Delta, etc etc I would probably not give that clearance. If the Delta/Echo surface area wasn't reporting less that VFR minima there is no reason for a SVFR clearance unless you state you need it because conditions require it. The magic words for all center controllers though is "Cancel IFR" haha then we don't care what you do......legally of course. :) Also as a relatively new time pilot thanks for the refresher on G/D/E airspace and as an even newer Mooney owner I always am checking your MP/speeds on short final and touchdown. I am still working on getting my landings as smooth as yours.
Hi Frank,
Thank your for the comments!! I'll have more time tomorrow to reply in more detail.
@frankward67 is right-on here. I think what you have been doing in the past and the phraseology you are using with ATC may be confusing them. The core issue was the original clearance. You did nothing wrong but ATC can not clear you to a place you can not get to IFR (ie there needs to be an approach to that airport or weather reports that allow decent in VFR conditions - because of this the controller issuing the clearance actually had what is called an operational error [an error by ATC]).
I believe what you are really intending is an IFR flight plan to a point and then continuing VFR (or SVFR, which of course you can not guaranty being issued). The original clearance should conform to 7110.65 4-2-8
4−2−8. IFR−VFR AND VFR−IFR FLIGHTS
a. Clear an aircraft planning IFR operations for the initial part of flight and VFR for the latter part to the fix at which the IFR part ends.
To avoid confusion, consider filing to the airport with the IFR approach. That way if weather is bad you can just land there, if weather allows, then you can cancel once in VMC conditions and go about your merry way. If you need the SVFR you can request it once in SVFR conditions but may not cancel IFR unless you are issued the SVFR clearance since you are not in VMC. I hope that makes sense.
Hi Frank, sorry for the delayed reply. Thank you for great your comments. They help view things from ATC side. I have discussed this with both approach and center controllers that I personally know in the area as well. Although I clearly stated that I wanted to do the RNAV 28 with OREHO as the IAF, she was not willing to go out of her comfort zone to clear me for it. Only then is when I brought out my having received that clearance many times prior and SVFR . I have really only needed the SVFR clearance twice in 10+ years and will actually notify the controller that I will need it so they know in advance what my intentions are since SVFR clearances are granted as long as not other IFR traffic is in the surface E. I would not want to surprise ATC either during the approach or when I am ready to cancel IFR and request SVFR at that time. I think that would cause more head scratching and possible denial with an inexperienced controller.
What model Mooney do you own? They are fabulous planes!
@@chriskoppel3940 Hello Chirs you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the "comfort zone" statement, if it's a procedure that is not used often or something the controller hasn't ever done, or anybody in the room either :) the controller will probably just say unable. My Mooney is a 1998 M20R Ovation, I've had it for almost 2 years and am loving it. My panel looked a lot like yours did before you went glass. I went glass too and really liking it, I will like it a whole lot more once I get the GFC500 installed in November. I can't wait for that because it's always very iffy if my KFC150 is going to pass the self-test on startup. Thanks for all the videos, I have learned several new things by watching your vids especially as a new Mooney owner.
Hi Frank,
The Ovation is a great airplane!! What kind of glass have you installed? I did it in phases which is why I have the 275's. Love the GFC500. Superb autopilot!!
I am sure you are doing great landings with 2 years experience with it. I do believe that the Ovation takes a bit more practice to master than the other Mooney models.
You have the advantage of seeing both sides - ATC and Mooney pilot!! Great stuff!!