Spencer & Henry - Vol. V, Episode 18
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- In this episode we take a look at the two more technologically advanced small arms of the Civil War, the Spencer Rifle and Henry Rifle. We look as several originals, discuss how to best employ them in living history, see supporting pieces like ammunition packaging boxes, and view comparisons of them versus the rifled-musket!
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Will, I just revisited the Spencer vs Henry, V#5, E#18 episode. We in Fairbanks, as a part of the First Alaska Living History Brigade, took the .45 Smith & Wesson (Schofield) case and built up a centerfire black powder cartridge w/a Round Nose Flat Point .452 inch diameter projectile, where the case length must be precisely 1.370 inches in overall cartridge length. These rounds will load 15 in the rifle's magazine and 1 in the chamber in a .45 Colt caliber Uberti-Henry lever rifle (I imagine they will work in the New Henry Company Henry rifle if it's chambered in .45 Colt). So we've gotten this rifle back to shooting as the "Sixteen-shooter" spoken of in historical documentation. The cartridge must be precisely 1.370 with no more than .003 to .005 inch variation to be just short enough to gain 15 in the magazine, yet long enough to prevent a double feed on the cartridge carrier. As always, some rifles feed this 'recipe' just a bit smoother than others and all will with careful readjustment of cartridge length or slight carrier work up. I mentioned this here instead of on the CWDD site, for I realize live-fire isn't the key focus of the reenactor realm. I just thought you might appreciate this data for use in some possible manner in your realm, or as to try it yourself, for your mileage may vary.
I should mention here that the .452 lead projectile used was a 200-grain bullet. I imagine the 225 or 250-grain bullet would work as well, yet I recommend the 200 grain.
The Henry Rifle must have been a really awe inspiring, almost frightening weapon in the field when it was first introduced.
PumpkinStrikesBack “The Yanks loaded the Henry on Sunday, and fired it all week long”
@@grahamr4916 Lol
@@grahamr4916 There ain't 16 days in a week.
@@AbrahamLincoln4 Hello 19th Century Justin Y.
I've found that when using a Spencer, after firing a shot and working the action to extract the empty case,
rotate the weapon sharply to one side to "flip" the empty case off the top of the action .
In late '64 the Federal Government formed the US Veteran Volunteer Infantry and armed them with Henry Rifles. They went into a long training cycle and the War ended before they were used. The men in the VVI were all veterans who had seen a lot of action.
Battle of Mine Creek at Pleasanton KS. The 1500 union cavalry under Pleasonton defeated 6000 confederates under Marmaduke. The union had Spencers
An action I wasn’t aware of. Thanks!
I was just discussing these weapons with my students today. I think some video is on tap for tomorrow.
Loved the video! I especially liked the mention of the 66th Illinois/Birge's Sharpshooters. In the early fall of 1862 they were one of the first units to arm themselves with Henry rifles while they were garrisoning Corinth, Mississippi. Many of the men used their own money to order the rifles and ammunition, and often these men would be specially detailed to fight local guerrillas by mounting them on mules and sending them off into the countryside.
.44 Henry not 44/40. The 44/40 is a centerfire cartridge designed well after the war to replace the old .44 Henry cartridge
Civil War Medic you beat me to it lol
Civil War Medic correct
3 1/2 years isn't WeLl AfTeR the war.
44-40 came out in 1873 chambered in the 1873 Winchester rifle. Finally chambered in revolvers about 1878
Much discussion as to which is better. The issue is which was better. As a military weapon the Spencer was more robust, easier to field strip and clean, and fired a more robust round. The Henry fired the 44 Henry rim fire which had 28 grains of black powder. This was about the same as most pistols. The Henry was significantly more expensive. The war department tested both and purchased about 86,000 Spencer carbines and 10,000 rifles.
Awesome video! Two small things:
The M1860 Henry was chambered in .44 Henry. .44-40 WCF post dated the Civil War, and was essentially a marginally more powerful version of the .44.
Modern reproductions chamber two rounds less because they are chambered in either .44-40 WCF or .45 LC. Both of these are larger then .44 Henry
2) While the Union Government purchased 1700, only half of these were issued, which was to the 1st DC Cavalry. However, 5000-6000 were purchased by regiments and individual soldiers during the war. Sometimes a regiment would purchase a small number for their scouts, or individual men would purchase them privately. Other times, entire regiments such as the 66th Illinois purchased them wholesale. The Union would provide .44 Henry to any quartermaster that requested it.
The more videos I watch about the American civil war it becomes painfully obvious that the South never had a chance of ever winning the war.
This was a good way to start my day! Nice job Will, Huck, and Chad!
"That's the style Will !" Superb episode.
Thanks!
Is this the "Gettysburg" movie reference?
Great video from start to finish.
From Australia, thank you Subscribed.
Cheers! Welcome!
Another thoughtfully researched and informational video, gentlemen! Well done.
for primers (if you can get them) the No 34 "nato" from CCI has harder cup for a bit more saftey is you wish. Its what I use for M1 Garand and MAS 49/56 as both have free floating fireing pin.
Just discovered this channel great content! I’m going to Gettysburg next year for the first time finally. One day when I have the money I’ll get into reenacting. I have an original 1861 springfield I fire every once in a while.
11:07 You can see the guy with the musket get startled by the Henry lol.
Hello Lincoln how’s life in heaven
Very interesting . My g-g-grandfather was in the 19th Pennsylvania cavalry. They were armed with the Spencer 1863 New Model and Starr DA revolvers.
Fascinating. Keep 'em coming.
Other than mistaking 44/40 ammo as the ammunition in the Henry I thought this video was very informative. Thanks for sharing
A real goof on our end. I wish RUclips led you edit or update a video. We’d immediately do a patch. Thanks for the kind words!
Civil War Digital Digest it happens I understand as a fellow creator
Shoot us a message, Sixguns. Tell us what you create! civilwardigitaldigest.com/pages/communicate.php
The us army had access to this in the 1860’s. It fired metallic cartridges. It outpaced the Dreyse needle rifle, and yet they still adopted the trapdoor Springfield. We could have conquered the world with this thing!
Not really. Sure the concept of a lever action rifle is far superior to single shot rifle muskets but the Henry has some major flaws. Weak ammunition no loading gate or wooden front hand grip to protect the shooters hands after the barrel heats up. That and the battlefield tactics of the day were all centered around long range full powered rifles and cannons. Just like today artillery is the true king of warfare. Also it has been proven that soldiers waste alot of ammunition without hitting anything at all with full auto rifles. That's why after Vietnam the M16A2 with semi automatic and three round bursts mode replaced the fully automatic M16A1.
The Indians at Custers last stand were armed with Henry’s and Winchester’s, the US army wasn’t (and left their machine guns behind).
Just subscribed today. Great channel, thanks for your hard work and dedication.
Welcome and thanks for the encouraging note! Hope you enjoy.
Our unit (63rd PAV) had their Lorenzes replaced by the Spencer before they merged with the 105th PAV.
If you want a deep dive into Winchester development starting from the Volcanic all the way to the Model 1895 go check out Ian at Forgotten Weapons. He also has a large catalog of other weapons used in the Civil War including the Spencer
Col. Wilder Is From Greensburg, Indiana,
I Live 20 Miles South Of His Home & I Pass It Each Time I Go There...
i want to build the crate for my Rifle, who can i get in contact with to get the dimensions and stencils?
It was the Spencer that made it into the Navy as well, giving it again, more use over the Henry. Great video, would like to know, where did you get some of your boxes, especially the ones for the Spencer?
I enjoyed this very much. I favor the Spencer. I also own a reproduction Spencer rifle. At times I portrait the 92nd Illinois volunteer Infantry, Wilder's Lighting Brigade.
Great video. I have a Spencer rifle myself. Bought it in 2007 even though my reenactment unit the 10th Illinois Infantry had some Henry rifles near the end of the war. I love my Spencer. It was designed as a military weapon. The Henry rifle was more of a sporting weapon. It was not designed to mount a bayonet.
Anybody who'd use a Spencer is a ne'er -do-well Yankee ! The hell you say !
Will, do You have detailed photos of a ammo crate so I can make a repro?
It’s in 44 Henry rimfire 5:48
11:20 I can see how frantic the dude is by how he's shaking while cocking the rifle.
I still can’t believe that the army decided to go with the Springfield trapdoor rifle, instead of the repeating Henry lever action during the Indian Wars.
I've got a lot of rounds through both, and I'm a former Army Infantryman so I've got some perspective. I'd rather have the Trapdoor in a fight any day. Much more power, much longer range, more simple mechanism and more reliable when faced with dirt, water and other battlefield factors. The Henry is an awesome rifle but that 44 Henry was anemic in comparison to the 45-70 government. The Henry was also prone to jamming, and the exposed slot in the feed tube makes it very vunerable to the elements. The trap door is just a better all around fighting implement.
@@hook86 Interesting. Thanks for the info!
@@DeusExMachina50 No problem! Check out InRange TVs head to head with the Springfield and the Spencer. In some events the Trapdoor was as fast or nearly as fast, and with a hell of a lot more firepower
@@hook86 Will do!
With training you can fire the trapdoor as fast as the spencer
I was here people I was and so were you.
You can really see how Wilder’s Brigade could hold an entire division at bay. Pretty amazing stuff
I had an ancestor who served with the 66th Illinois (Birge's WSS) prior to dying of typhoid fever.
My GG Grandfather carried the Spencer rifle in the 40th Indiana Infantry later in the war. My cousin still has it. SUVCW
You are a rich family to have a identified heirloom like that with you still!
The Henry rifle was not originally chambered in 44-40, but in .44 rimfire.
Not sure if they were used in the war, but I understand the Spencer had tube "reloaders' that held 7 cartridges, so reloading was almost as easy as replacing a magazine.
Neal Catapano the blakeslee box yes
@@SlickSixgunsYes, the octagonal box carried 11 loaded magazines.
Wait, I remember that henry rifle that you showed us in a western movie. An indian guy was using it
The Spencer was bought by many of smart Union troops with their own pay. The Henry was much much more expensive that was far to open, susceptiable to mud and other debris.
centerfire, isn't there a risk of the capsule triggering?
The 1860 Henry was chambered in 44 henry flat ( 44 rimfire ) not 44-40. 44-40 did not come about until the advent of the 1873 Winchester. For the spencer, I know for certain calvary had speed loads in the form of metal tubes in a case, called a blakesly box, not sure if infantry was equiped with said equipment.
I own a Taylor's 56-50 Spencer carbine. I load a 350 grain bullet at 1300 FPS, giving it 1300 Ft. Lbs of energy.
The 44 Henry Rimfire is often maligned for being underpowered. But it uses a 210 gr bullet at 1200 FPS, giving 671 Ft Lbs energy. That's extremely close to the ballistics of the 41 Remington Magnum revolver. No one ever dared call it a mouse gun.
The Spencer was more powerful, the Henry more firepower.
Ned Robert's book talks about his uncle hunting black bear with a 56 Spencer carbine in the 1870s and had no issues.
The ammo boxes could you give more info. . Maybe dimension s please
The Henry rifle and the Spencer rifle's carbine version both make it into Red Dead Redemption 2 as the Litchfield and Carbine repeaters, respectively. Now, if only they added the rifle model as a variant of the carbine repeater ingame. IMO, it's so much nicer a model, albeit impractical on horseback, like most rifles beyond a certain barrel length.
Hello, I am a history professor at a small college in Texas. I used your comparison of the repeating rifles versus muzzle-loaders during my recorded, online Civil War lectures. For obvious reasons, I had to teach most of my classes remotely. Specifically, during my lecture, I used the section in this video between 9:00 and 11:28. I want to upload these recorded lectures to RUclips, but I want to ask your permission first. The lectures are free and not monetized and I will be sure to give you complete credit. Can I get your permission to do so?
Thanks,
Keith Eppich, PhD
Hi Keith!
First, thank you so much for asking. We really appreciate that.
Second, please feel free to use the relevant segment as you request. Our only ask in return is if you can give us credit in the information section at the bottom of the RUclips video, and if possible a link to our complete video.
We are thrilled that the contact we are creating support your educational goals. Good luck with a really crazy semester! Will
@@CivilWarDigitalDigest thanks, man. I will!
Does that band have an album?
The Henry was originally chambered in 44 Henry rimfire not 44-40
Excellent catch. It was a miss on our part & RUclips won’t let us edit.
Was not originally chambered in a 4440 it was originally chambered in a 44 Rimfire known as the 44 flat
What is the song during the shooting test? Its awesome
Hell on the Wabash
ruclips.net/video/tvJakG-801I/видео.html
Just found out about you folks through a friend on Facebook. I’m subscribed.
Even if I think my Henry is cooler then your Spencer ;)
Welcome!
I really want to know more about those ammo boxes. Wooden and cardboard. Sizes, materials, and making them.
The wooden box was made by Kelly Ford. He has more in stock. The cardboard box for the Spencer we will be adding a pattern to on our website very soon. Keep an eye on our research pages. Will
I want to start re-enactment as a civil war sharpshooter at some point soon, do you know where I can find “the blank firing Henry repeaters”?
Buy a Henry from any reputable source. Then buy blanks for it. .45 Long Colt might be the best caliber, dollars to doughnuts.
@@CivilWarDigitalDigest much appreciated my friend
Original Henry's fired .44 Henry Rim Fire. The 44.40 is a modern cartridge and is Center Fire. Facts are important.
Yup. Mistake we made. We announced it on other platforms and above here. RUclips won’t let up replace or update a video. When it does, this will be updated.
The Union Army would be O.P af if every soldier had a Spencer as requested by Lincoln.
From what I understand the logistics of supplying that much ammunition was a daunting task and one of the main arguments against repeating weapons being issued en masse.
At least if they issued their Sharp's rifles.
Spencer rifle or carbine?
I have a question : what if i reenact as confederate soldiers and carrying 44-40 repro of spencer rifle/carbine ? Is that historically acurate ?
We have yet to run into a single reference of a confederate carrying a Spencer. Not saying that it did not happen, but the logistical problems of getting ammunition alone, make it extremely unlikely, so, therefore, not historically accurate.
@@CivilWarDigitalDigest one more pls ; is there any a penalty for reenactors who didn't reenact historically unrealistic ?
The Spencer has a more powerful cartridge but the Henry shoots alot more shots and is faster to fire. It's lever system would go on to be the standard by which all future lever actions would copy. It's biggest drawback is no loading gate and the weak 44 rim fire ammunition it uses. But it's very obvious that the Henry would be the blueprint. Both were still far superior to the single shot rifle muskets of the time. Still the idea of switching to a repeater rifle in the middle of a war would have been a supply chain and tactical nightmare on a large scale situation even for the more industrialized north. Having to reissue new guns ammunition and training for hundreds of thousands of soldiers that made up the Union was simply out of the question.
Weren't some of these weapons considered "wasting ammunition" because they could fire so many rounds? Thought I read that somewhere.
Maybe by the head of Ordnance for part of the war.
@@CivilWarDigitalDigest That would make sense.
Wouldn’t surprise me. That’s the main reason militaries refused to adopt semiautomatics as standard issue for the longest time until the M1 Garand proved their worth. It’s also the same reason even though modern infantry rifles are select fire soldiers are expected to fire on semiautomatic mode and only save full auto for emergency cover fire.
@@CivilWarDigitalDigest Yes, they denied contracts for such "assault" weapons, but not for the single-shot breech-loaders, which were still quite an improvement over the muskets they mainly used. As I understand it, the Sharps rifle and carbine series was so popular that the Spencer series took second place? And, I can't thank you enough, really. :) Especially since, of all the videos revealed, this one opts to show the less-popular rifle version in action. I've always liked the rifle's look, and it seems to suit fitting a bayonet so well! This video made it much clearer how complicated the Spencer was to actually prep for firing. I thought it was simply the lever, then cocking the hammer. Why was it a requirement to half-cock first, *then* lever, and then fully cock the hammer? Would waiting to simply fully cock the hammer really interfere with the lever mechanism? Also, I wonder what attitudes were towards the tap-loading system for muzzle-loaders at that time?
@@CivilWarDigitalDigest If the Ordnance board hadn't been eliminated, we would still be using trap doors .
Well just found out Gettysburg was not very fair for South they basically had no chance!
enjoyed background CWWD. Here's more live fire from both Spencers, Henrys, and Springfileds including a shooting match up with Spencer and Henry (2 min into the video) - enjoy pards at ruclips.net/video/lQZ-fRW6jOg/видео.html
More fun on the Range - including Spencers and other CW arms with a few great pards from the Army - Modern ARMY with Civil War Guns ruclips.net/video/3aOoeWCfLsg/видео.html
Is that pistol ammutions ?
.45LC in the reproductions. Can be.
Anybody have a link to the R. Lee Ermey vid mentioned in which he compares the Spencer and Henry? Did searches on R Lee Ermey and Spencer and variations thereof, but nothing came up
Not really sure. That is owned by history channel and they probably enforced there copyright and have it pulled down.
@@CivilWarDigitalDigest That seems to have been what happened - found it on another vid platform
So I gues the original Henry (44 Henry Rimfire) would have fired 15 or 16 rounds in time. ;)
The spencer looks like a musket
It shares lot of it's design with Sharp's breach loader rifle.
Good video! However your soldier was not very adept at using a lever rifle. He was unable to cycle a lever rifle in a proper manner, he was also not very good at accessing his ammo.
There was never a steel frame Henry the earliest were Iron frame
If U were to give the other guy a Sharps percussion carbine or full length rifle, it'd prob'ly B more of a fair fight.
It’s not meant to be fair. It’s a comparison to the main line infantry rifle to show the technological differences. Will
Will, I was wondering if you have any knowledge of whether Northern manufacturers created brass framed revolvers in any quantity, as I was under the impression they were only a Southern feature and was caught in a lively dispute with a gentleman. Also, I couldn't help admiring your frock coat, any idea where I can find one?
If you want a top grade frock coat, I'd go with the Quartermaster Shop in Michigan. If you want one for everyday reenactment use, I'd go with the Blockade Runner in Tennessee.
I’m not sure on the brass frame. I was surprised as I researched at exactly the same thing. This frock is made from fabric from Wambaugh and White and was privately assembled by a tailor. Sadly, she is no longer sewing or I’d be proud to give you her name. Will
Frankly, the Spencer rifle should have replaced the Springfield, not the trapdoor conversions.
My Uberti '66 Winchester "Yellowboy" resembles a Henry close enough for use in re-enactments. The Yellowboy's side loading gate was a great innovation!
R. E. Stone Please don’t :(. They are very different models. The Yellowboy is a great gun and perfect for Cowboy Action Shooting; but it’s totally inappropriate for an American Civil War re-enactment.
@@DarthMercanto of course I am aware that the Yellowboy is a postwar weapon. On account of its close resemblance to the Henry, I don't have a problem occasionally using it while reenacting. In the main, though, I rely on my repro P1853 Enfield.
I’m glad you’ll be using your P53 on most occasions, and congratulations on owning such an excellent rifle musket.
The presence of the forestock, King improvement; as well as the smaller length and caliber really does make the Yellowboy inappropriate for ACW. Naturally, final say rests with the event organizers and your unit, not with some nerdy bloke on the RUclips comment section lol. That being said, in my own experience, our small unit captain recently intimated that he wished to purchase Goldenboy after having tried and become enamoured with my Henry Repeater. I told him in no uncertain terms that he absolutely could not use such an arm on the field. We are a bit more laid back in Canada, but my refusal was met with the unanimous agreement of the unit.
Anyone with a passing knowledge of the arms can tell the difference at three hundred yards. Other units will likely not appreciate the egregious anachronism.
Stick with your P53. That’s a fantastic rifle musket. You can always keep your eyes out for an M1860 Henry and get lucky. Haha it worked for me :). As for your Yellowboy, I really recommend giving CAS a try. Your rifle would be perfect for it.
@@DarthMercanto yes, and several years ago I had the piece "de-farbed" by John Zimmerman.
Could you imagine being on Southern side ?
Honestly, it is hard to fathom. Can you imagine being those Confederates at Hoover’s Gap advancing and weathering the first valley and then getting hit by another and another and another? It had to be very demoralizing.
@@CivilWarDigitalDigest indeed.
Let alone that at the time new technology
would have been frightening
Couldn't imagine anything else
Couldn't wealthy Union Soldiers of had these type of weapons at Bull Run if they bought them themselves if made in 1860 or no?
Availability is one issue. Supply of ammunition consistently in the military on the move would be another. It would be theoretically possible, although I don’t see it happening. Also, I have not seen historic sources mentioning it either.
11:07 lmao
I would rather have my Henry 45lc. Than a reproduction of the spencer.