She is just one of those people trying to agree with whatever he says trying to be liked. Anyone else with a minimum of intellectual capacity would destroy this merch selling profiteer from a death cult. But he found the agreeable ice cream eating tourist.
So its safe to say then you agree you are an A hole? Its one thing to be ignorant, but another to know the truth and trespass it anyways.@lucacuradossi1040
@@DeliaFasta96 it contains all. There is glory to be found in the tremendous progress made, if one is inclined to see and value it. Equally there is no doubt of the horrors and pain.
Every reason that people “want” children is selfish. I choose not to bring a child into this disgusting hell hole of a world we Iive in which is why I am childfree. Children are going to suffer o matter what. I’m also single/unmarried because dating, being in a relationship and getting married is selfish. People lie and cheat, become abusive and hide criminal acts. Being single/unmarried and childfree are the best decisions I have ever made.
I feel like it's some kind of developmental issues a lot of people have. Its like a lot of people haven't broken the naive bubble and really take in the depths of pain and suffering and really integrate it into their lives. Most people want to feel good and "get mine and get gone." until kingdom come it seems. And that usually means following the herd and the path of least resistance and joining in on the consumerist party. 🎉
@@LawrenceAnton It seems a little like veganism in this regard, an awful lot of people actually agree when the case is made well that animal slaughter isn't necessary so logically not consuming animal products is sensible but still continue to do so.
Veganism is infinitely more justifiable than anti natalism. The fact that you think you can moralize a whole ass species into extinction is peak delusion.
Maybe off topic but; here is the thing I do not get. I've always suffered from anxiety, even as a small child. My WHOLE life I was told by therapists, doctors, anyone and everyone that anxiety is common, that everyone has it, it's 'normal'. Now if everybody has it, how the hell do I have more anxiety about this woman's unborn child than herself??? 😿
@dainfant5101 I wish thumbs down were still visible, because I gave your comment a thumbs down. Because something like anxiety isn't something you can get rid of completely or so. Re-programming the brain against anxiety is extremely difficult, laborious and painful. And it needs a lot of maintenance. Anxiety has extreme gravity, whereas being relaxed doesn't. And we shouldn't be forced to deal with anxiety in the first place. Being anxious in a reality that's full of dangers is partially sensible (at least based on where it's coming from: real risks). Well, I could go on and on, but you probably don't get it anyways....
Many of those old people who end up alone actually do have children and grandchildren but these, for one reason or another, just don't visit much. Or at all. And that strikes me as an even sadder situation than the person who may be alone because he/she chose not to procreate.
I was brought into this world of poverty and suffering. My mom was in no position to have children but she had me. My dad left when I was born. I wake up everyday with existential dread. I downplay a basic ennui, a kind of world-weariness and Weltschmerz and saudade all in one. Things start to feel futile and useless and deluded. Don't have children if you do not have the means to support them. I do not wish this pain on no one.
@@d3r4g45So conversely, that would mean that people who are born in poverty have a better chance to become great inventors than someone born in easier circumstances …? Or what do you mean?
@@d3r4g45Nobody has claimed that living is wrong. As to creating life, I still have not come across an honest, logically and ethically unobjectionable reason for procreation.
As someone who works in a nursing home with people who suffer from dementia (all stages) , Parkinson's and Korsakoff. All except for one have children. In the first two months visits are frequent, but still relatively short visits. After that it's once a week and then they mostly forget about the parent/ friend/ brother/ sister until they're on their deathbed. So no, elderly people are not flooded with company and this lady is delusional.
This was actually refreshing l don't think l have ever come across a natalist who openly admits the legitimacy of antinatalist arguments l believe its because they feel the need to maintain the delusion that their natalist ideology is good and righteous Even though she is a natalist she admits its selfish is respectful and does not gaslight.Even though she is a natalist, if there is anyone that would make a good mum its her.
Your arguments are not legitimate though. This is the delusion you people engage in. Your ideas are not only profoundly wrong-they are the most morally confused ideology on the planet. Even the most delusional religious fundamentalists are the voice of sanity in a crowd of antinatalists.
@TailgateActivism "Think about all the children that were abandoned by their parents and nobody wanting to adopt them because most people need a child with the same dna. You're tax payer money supports this" How exactly does it support these spicific people, and what has it to do with having respectful conversation and debate?
@TailgateActivism The same reason I don't think of even the worst of criminals as anything less than human. Boundless compassion. To use the term breeder as derogatory is degrading and only futher seeks to alienate anyinatlism from the rest of the world and vice versa. This is a philosophy of compassion, and I would expect those who claim to be a part of this philosophy to understand that
People do it all the time, to fix their relationship, to prevent loneliness, to (hope to) secure support in old age. I empathise with the issue but creating someone to do that is twisted
There's a high chance she will become a single mom at some point before the child reaches 18. That's the real fear immediate danger that comes only second to the risk of permanent injury or death from pregnancy. I can see why you wouldn't want to say either of those to her but clearly suicide risk and climate change just didn't get through
This lady just might have felt a lot better and less guilty (by her answers of know what is really going on in the world already) If she had not been pregnant well now it's an irreversible stage unfortunately but this event is a good solid example to the world. That we just procrete with no discretion whatsoever.
@@d3r4g45 quite a jump there. putting a child who needs those resources even though we live in a world of finite ones in which scarcity thrives is what seems most selfish.
@@francescocerasuolo4064 "putting a child who needs those resources even though we live in a world of finite ones" let me stop you right there in your nonsense. Kid does not need infinite resources. "we live in a world of finite resources" is literally a non argument. Also, the resources you have access to according to your income, can be spent all on yourself, or spent on a kid. What is more selfish?
@d3r4g45 spending resources on a child that never asked for those resources to be spent on in the 1st place is selfish. Having kids is selfish, because, what reason is there to create a child from nothing that isn't selfish? The moment you say "I want" "for my child" is a completely self serving.
The pregnant girl probably wouldn’t have had children if her mother wasn’t so encouraging of procreation. It so annoying how some people as they age, they forget how difficult life is because they are retired and comfortable financially.
One of the most common arguments for having children was mentioned by the nurse, and that is that having children means that you'll have somebody to look after you when you're old. Many people who have children wind up in a nursing home. Several years ago I saw a post on a childfree forum in which the poster said that they used to visit an old folks home. Out of about 100 old ladies who were there, only a few had never had children, and there were a few more whose children had died before them. The rest of the old ladies all had living children, and in most cases, the children rarely came to visit.
Lawrence, you and your videographer have produced another great work. It’s wonderful these pronatalists are so comfortable talking to you sharing their worldview. And you With calm and thoughtful dialogue responding.❤❤❤
"Good people" is such a loose concept and it doesn't even make sense that "good people" should procreate. Thats still a gamble and its of course again is too loose of a concept. But any child born to a "good parent" isn't going to solve the worlds problems - for one. And what an ungodly burden that would be for a developing child as it is! For another thing, the child could just be traumatized from said "good parent" or from general circumstances and then they end up as a psychopath or something worse... Could even just be some birth defect/genetic thing that causes it.
What "expected harm"? Does this possible "expected harm" justify not existing? Is your existence such an "unsufferable harm" that justifies non existing? You are still around, so that doesn't seem to be the case.
@@d3r4g45 The “expected harm” justifies in OP’s opinion not creating additional life. Nobody has alleged that that it does “not justify existing”. The latter is your interpretation because you have serious problems with basic reading comprehension and logical thinking.
Most people are forgotten in history, because they did nothing remarkable or interesting. Her children will statistically not achieve much, but hey, they get to enjoy their ice cream as their mother does, as they live in obscurity and irrelevance.
They don't need to be remembered in history to be interesting or remarkable. And I think getting to enjoy ice cream is a good enough reason for someone to live
Been watching you for a while, never commented but I just wanted to say I love you man, love what you do and I love how you're always so kind and respectful towards other people no matter what they say
@@TheCoolerBrother Heh, you presented two options, and easy road and a right road. As nothing could be easier than antinatalism, this implies or necessitates that having kids is the right road.
4:10 "I have younger children kids too" That subtle eye of judgement proceeding to look at adult daughter and then back at the mother again, Ooo I can FEEL THAT in my gut! ha ha ha I feel you Bro :D
You did great Lawrence! I like how you always keep your calm and try your best to educate others about this topic. I really enjoy every video you make 😄 Keep it up you absolute Legend!💯
Alternate Solution: Make a law child above 18 who can file a complaint against parents if their life sucks. And parents before procreate should sign this.
Im glad you shut that “what about people that have ten kids with no money”. As if people born into money don’t suffer. She agreed with everything you said, but will still continue to have more children.
I so don’t get the urge to “extend my line.” Like the only thing I have of note as a legacy to my life is the art I make, but when I die someone can burn or delete it all for all I care. I mean I suppose I’d rather it continue to exist after my passing, but at the same time I’ll be dead so really why should I give a damn? Same goes for the supposed “legacy” of my hypothetical kids. Just so narcissistic….
i just found out about your channel, i dont feel so alone anymore, and yes i know no ones going to take care of when im old, so be it, i would rather suffer by myself than to bring another innocent human being to suffer with me, i dont want more people to suffer
Why do you think life is only suffering? also why do you think the suffering outweights the positive experiences? And also by so much to make life not worth living? You are obviously still around so that is not the case it seems.
I like this other woman with a channel named "brave girl" - a mom and antinatalist ruclips.net/video/9k6ZfuVKGW4/видео.html She has all my respect in the world
3:09, more so the reason not to have children who will one day become elderlies and suffer, to love is to not propagate the hate that is disguised as love
I think this is an important argument to encounter. Not because I believe we should concede to its conclusions, but to realise that as much as we depend on rationality, it can not be used soley to justify reproduction. I think one needs to believe in something more than the materialist world view for it to make sense.
8:07 You don't even need to mention diseases because it seems possible that humanity could potentially eradicate most of those diseases. But even if we eradicated all diseases, depression, suicidal tendencies, etc, etc, etc, etc......... there's always going to be a risk that gravity will kill you and no one can escape the effects of gravity.
It's fascinating that she completely acknowledges the legitimacy and validity of antinatalistic arguments and even encourages to "continue doing what they're doing" and to "spread the word" and that she "gets it"....but still seems happy with being pregnant...These arguments don't reach people on the deeper psychological and emotional level of moral conviction even if they might sometimes agree with the logical aspects of the AN argument...
@@Prayerful72K Yeah basically this woman 'gets it' but she just wants other people to adhere to the philosophy and for herself to be the exception. She suffers from a bad case of 'I am me' syndrome.
Governments need people, so technologies will advance, Life is all about survival and advancement of technology and not the "mind" They need workers and not thinkers so that their materialistic stuff would advance
It's more like billionaires don't need the poor people anymore, as factories will run on robots. Therefore poor and unemployed people are the threat to the billionaires. So they decided to sterilize poor people with death cults like this.
@@d3r4g45 Developed countries and educated people in every nation tend to have fewer kids, not Iower cIass people in deveIoping countries like you so there goes your lame argument
Do you believe all lives are more suffering than pleasure? I don't but I believe a majority are and that it doesn't need to be for antinalism to be true
I hope these comments won’t be too harsh on these people. They’re being hypocritical, but we all are about some things and sometimes come around to the idea fully at a later time. This philosophy can be so hard to digest!
You can claim you're not trying to convince her to have an abortion all you want, but ultimately that's what you are doing. You want to convince her having kids is immoral, and since the way for her to not have a kid)(s) at that point is either some random medical/violent event or she has an abortion, you do want her to have an abortion. Or you want her to fall down some stairs I guess, but I assume not that since that would be suffering.
just ask them the question "if you were in the german concentration camp would you still bother to reproduce because you find having children is a beautiful thing " and see them stutter 😂😂
@@dainfant5101 its an analogy man with the racism, violence against women, economic instability, war and terrorism, economic inequality and with the climate change it feels like we're getting much closer to the concentration camp scenario
Wow I just started rewatching it this week! I think it's an interesting portrayal of depression, substance abuse and other difficulites people face in different stages of life.. And the negative aspects of life people usually don't think about, from several points of view. Including that of successful people that supposedly "have it all" and are expected to be happy but are far from it (bojack, sarah-lyn..) I think it might affirm people who are already leaning towards the antinatalist conclusion, but I think it would fly over the heads of natalists. They would probably think "bojack's parents are awful, I will be much better so my kid will be happy" or whatever.. Overall I think it's a great show, but I'm not sure antinatalism is it's ultimate goal.
@@MustObeyTheRules If he really thinks having children is that bad, that his parents made a mistake in having him and that life is worthless suffering, he would have ended it. ;)
I feel compelled to offer counter narrative and opinion to the many here arguing that life is horrible and that reproduction is evil. Firstly, please dont mistake me as some fundamentalist religous fanatic, or someone who can not understand the sound logic behind the antinatalist argument. I have personally withdrawn from any relationship through fear of inevitably bringing a child in to the world, just at the time all hell will break loose. I believe I have made the right choice, but I still reserve the right to father a child at a later date, should circumstance and outlook change. Either way, it is not the end of the world. Now, I think this argument is a great example to discuss the polarity of all things. Because love and hate are two sides of the same coin, and the side it lands for you, greatly depends on the world view you have, and more importantly, your fundamental understanding of the nature of reality. For example, if your view is that reality is physical, consciousness an illusion emerging from matter, and life having no purpose other than that we imagine, then at this frequency this coin will land on antinatalism. You will hate reality and resent those that reproduce. If however, you were to believe for example as a theist would believe, which is that the universe was created for purpose of life, then on top of the instilled desire to reproduce that is understood naturally, one would have the perceived will of God behind them. At this frequency, antinatalism would present itself as evil and the words of the devil, or something along those lines. One can not assert one side of this argument without substantiating their understanding of reality, and in all cases be mindful that this understanding may be wrong. If it were, your polarity would shift accordingly, independent of the logic of the argument, as described. Personally I am more and more of the opinion that the universe is mental in nature. There are paradoxes encountered with the contrary world view that dissappear if we switch our presumptions and look at matter as an emergent property of consciousness. This eliminates the hard problem of understanding how consciousness emerges from matter without reason, and also eliminates the stupid paradox that at some point we got something from nothing. It would just be mind from mind. In this case, I have to allow for the real possibility that the reality as we know was willed into existence, and life exists through a greater will also. I used to think all this thinking was nonsense because the people I heard discuss it were people like deepak chopra and he is a snake oil salesman. But over the last few years it has been making more sense. Worth checking out Roger Penrise work on quantum consciousness. Anyway, I hope at the least we can all agree that this argument is black and white only within specific understandings of reality, and that all people will have a different experience and understanding of reality. It is wise to not see it as a matter of good or evil.
He is like: Your children will only contribute to the pollution, climate change and meaningless overconsumerism. Also him: Anyways, here is the link for my merch.
@@combinero.YT_deletes_comments. People should give up having children because it is selfish and makes climate change and overconsumerism only worse. But he can sell his merch lol.
@@heidizuri To reIigious nuts, abortion=homicide. Funny how almost none of them want to execute or imprison abortionists for life if that's really what they believe though.
We are living in era best for kids (statisticaly). Less wars, less danger, encreasing level of living all over the wotld. People have better and better education exponencialy encrrasing the probability in energy, health or travel breakthrough. In fact, we did in last centuries as a mankinf GREAT! leap towards being able to survive external extinction event. In fact we are doing GREAT..... Arguments used ibn vid are of that "short horizon" ones.
@@dewiwilliams4821 People had children during the black plague. Just admit that you don't like kids or you don't like to compromise and put the effort into raising one.
@dainfant5101 my wider opinion is outlined as below.; I feel compelled to offer counter narrative and opinion to the many here arguing that life is horrible and that reproduction is evil. Firstly, please dont mistake me as some fundamentalist religous fanatic, or someone who can not understand the sound logic behind the antinatalist argument. I have personally withdrawn from any relationship through fear of inevitably bringing a child in to the world, just at the time all hell will break loose. I believe I have made the right choice, but I still reserve the right to father a child at a later date, should circumstance and outlook change. Either way, it is not the end of the world. Now, I think this argument is a great example to discuss the polarity of all things. Because love and hate are two sides of the same coin, and the side it lands for you, greatly depends on the world view you have, and more importantly, your fundamental understanding of the nature of reality. For example, if your view is that reality is physical, consciousness an illusion emerging from matter, and life having no purpose other than that we imagine, then at this frequency this coin will land on antinatalism. You will hate reality and resent those that reproduce. If however, you were to believe for example as a theist would believe, which is that the universe was created for purpose of life, then on top of the instilled desire to reproduce that is understood naturally, one would have the perceived will of God behind them. At this frequency, antinatalism would present itself as evil and the words of the devil, or something along those lines. One can not assert one side of this argument without substantiating their understanding of reality, and in all cases be mindful that this understanding may be wrong. If it were, your polarity would shift accordingly, independent of the logic of the argument, as described. Personally I am more and more of the opinion that the universe is mental in nature. There are paradoxes encountered with the contrary world view that dissappear if we switch our presumptions and look at matter as an emergent property of consciousness. This eliminates the hard problem of understanding how consciousness emerges from matter without reason, and also eliminates the stupid paradox that at some point we got something from nothing. It would just be mind from mind. In this case, I have to allow for the real possibility that the reality as we know was willed into existence, and life exists through a greater will also. I used to think all this thinking was nonsense because the people I heard discuss it were people like deepak chopra and he is a snake oil salesman. But over the last few years it has been making more sense. Worth checking out Roger Penrise work on quantum consciousness. Anyway, I hope at the least we can all agree that this argument is black and white only within specific understandings of reality, and that all people will have a different experience and understanding of reality. It is wise to not see it as a matter of good or evil.
People living trough the black plague, ww1 and 2, starving in the ice ages... Some dude in 2024 in the UK: OMG my frappucino is not hot enough, i literally can't bare to make children to suffer trough this, i have so much free time and energy on my hands i will protest about how life is so unbareable.
If you watch his most viewed video, he literally says that his life is very good and privileged and that his kids would probably suffer much less than the average human. He still doesn't think it's necessary for him or that there are any good reasons to do it. Moreover, he does activism for other causes and donates a large portion of his income, which are important things that could not be done if he was putting new individuals into existence.
@@josephancion2190 We are living the most abundant, most comfortable, easiest, with the least sufferint and the most positive human experience in human history. All his death cult depopulation agenda "arguments" make no sense.
@@d3r4g45 Yeah, those people had children in spite of horrible conditions. They were used as tools in the army and fodder, subjected to a horrible disease. And to chalk his whole argument up to his drink is disingenuous and completely intellectually dishonest
@@saggyshaggy People survived not for anyone elce but first and foremost for themselves. And people lived way way harsher realities than he, now, in the UK, has. For him to call life "unbareable suffering" lol.
@@francescocerasuolo4064 I guess that everyone is an anti natalist, people become natalist for a moment during sex and after that, they go back to a regular non procreation state. In my case, I was being sarcastic , I really hate all parents.
Yes people suffer but if you are not clinically depressed then life is still worthwhile and people are overall grateful to be alive and are joyful to continue the cycle. Even if you are, there are treatments that keep getting better. That said, if you're going around saying life is horrible and you're this perturbed by what you see in the world, then I suppose you're more likely to have kids who feel that way given heritability. So I guess there's nothing to discuss. It's self selection at work. The more successful your anti natalist campaign, the more the world will be filled with happy to be alive and reproducing natalists and their progeny.
@@combinero.YT_deletes_comments. If that list is all you see and you cannot see any reason to live, then you are depressed. Please seek treatment. If you do you will stop seeing everything as so hopeless.
@@caustinolino3687 I am just saying that all this horrible things make life an evil thing. Plus any pleasure is just diminishment of pain. For example, you will not get a pleasure from drinking water if you do not have desire to drink water (unsatisfied desires are painful, especially if they strong ) ( pleasure is only valuable because it is diminishment of pain, otherwise the absence of pleasure would not be a problem).
@@combinero.YT_deletes_comments. Pleasure is only diminishment of pain if you have a totally carnal conception of pleasure. Pleasure, in the sense of contentment, can exist with pain and even override it. You may be in physical pain but if your attitude is one of contentment and gratitude, you don't mind the pain. For example, if I am sleep deprived and suffering because of my newborn whom I love, I feel the pain but don't mind it. Im even grateful for it. It's a "lucky problem to have" so to speak. In other words, your attitude towards pain is ultimately what determines your subjective experience of it. Back to the subject of clinical depression, I realize your brain is distorted to the point where none of this resonates with you. For a quick reality check, 99.99+% of people not only enjoy life enough to want to be alive, they would go to the ends of the Earth to stay alive. You can focus on the 1 in 10,000 or whatever who disagrees, but being such a rare exception should prove the point that the way you're seeing things is not an objective appraisal of reality. It's the result of a distortion in perception that is rare. For another reality check, it's been proven repeatedly that people in poorer circumstances are less depressed than those in material abundance. Eg, the average Thai is happier than the average German. If satisfaction with live and experience of pain were all that mattered, then happiness should go up the more options you have to avoid pain. Except it doesn't work that way at all. This is straightforward medical condition you have that is causing you to see everything in such dire hopeless terms, even though reality doesnt match the your stark perception. It's a well understood disorder and there are treatments. I feel bad that videos like this drive you deeper into that depressive hole instead of help lift you out of it. They make you think this is a philosophical matter vs a simple neurochemcial and cognitive matter. From the way you're talking you are probably in a materially wealthy country. That means you have access to treatment. Give that a try instead of letting an inhuman ad algorithm drive you further down a pointless unnecessary hole.
@@mariaradulovic3203 haha. do tell me, who do you expect to make the bread for you when you are 50.. 70.. 90 years old? Who do you expect to nurse you when you get sick? Oh it's the other people children.
@@DeliaFasta96 Every breath you take is a selfish act of self preservation. Nothing wrong with "selfish" in it's own. But you didn't answer my question, who will make the bread, who will nurse you, who will run the society if no one makes children? Like literally how do you imagine that to function?
Suffering is part of life. It's what gives meaning to life. Anti-natalism is pretty close to suicidality, IMO. Having kids is a deep drive of life, not a rational thing.
If you natalists truly care about life and not simply the creation of it, I don't believe u'd allow the world to turn into the situation it is today, where a human successfully offs himself every 40 seconds, and I haven't even got data on those who failed to do so. This is literally how wonderful the world has become Heard way too much of your side's verbal diarrhoea. When is parental licensing finally gonna be a thing? So no more murderers, homeless people etc are created? And when are we as humans gonna finally sit down and discuss solutions to all humanity's problems? No schedule? Just want to keep popping more humans here so they can repeat the struggles? PS: u confused starting a new life vs ending existing life, yet again. AN is about not starting fresh new lives, not ending existing life. So that suicidality point u were trying to make is yet again, invalid, just like all those who think they oppose AN.
@@Zzyzzyxu can spend all day specifying which suffering gives life meaning and which does not, but your child doesn't get to choose which to suffer from, Ur imposing risk of any and every suffering u also cannot choose onto him
Did you expect this conversation to end like this? 😳
👋
You handled it so well ..
@@Liveanimalsalone Cheers Kaz
@@LouisGedo 🙌
Great
How can you handle😮
I think that girl represents 90% of the people. She agrees with everything but says it is what it is.
Yep, many people get the point being made by antinatalists but simply don’t implement it
Yes morally I agree with veganism and antinatalism but I will still have children and my favourite meal is steak.
She is just one of those people trying to agree with whatever he says trying to be liked. Anyone else with a minimum of intellectual capacity would destroy this merch selling profiteer from a death cult. But he found the agreeable ice cream eating tourist.
You’ll never win because the genes that seek to replicate no matter what will replace those who didn’t
So its safe to say then you agree you are an A hole? Its one thing to be ignorant, but another to know the truth and trespass it anyways.@lucacuradossi1040
“I want sons/daughters to go on through history” immediately I would’ve asked her if she knows the full name of her great grandparents😂
Fair point 😅
I doubt she’s ever engaged herself in history. It’s gory and doesn’t contain pleasant or joyful events.
@@DeliaFasta96 it contains all. There is glory to be found in the tremendous progress made, if one is inclined to see and value it. Equally there is no doubt of the horrors and pain.
what difference does "knowing full name" make?
Genius
Every reason that people “want” children is selfish. I choose not to bring a child into this disgusting hell hole of a world we Iive in which is why I am childfree. Children are going to suffer o matter what. I’m also single/unmarried because dating, being in a relationship and getting married is selfish. People lie and cheat, become abusive and hide criminal acts. Being single/unmarried and childfree are the best decisions I have ever made.
She has a perfect “I know, but I don’t care” mindset. To acknowledge how wrong It is, but continuing to procreate is pure Hypocrisy.
Antinatalists continuing to rely on procreated humans is actually pure hypocrisy.
I feel like it's some kind of developmental issues a lot of people have.
Its like a lot of people haven't broken the naive bubble and really take in the depths of pain and suffering and really integrate it into their lives.
Most people want to feel good and "get mine and get gone." until kingdom come it seems.
And that usually means following the herd and the path of least resistance and joining in on the consumerist party. 🎉
@@danielbarrera8391 perfect explanation. Wish there was some kind of cure for it lol.
I wont wish my kid an afternoon of this stupid life i had gone through, let alone a lifetime
No more Innocent little children - this is a very dangerous place …. STOP!
She is literally saying "Yasssssss!" to everything you are saying, but she is still going to have kids. 😞
Because she's a pretty girl
now, she just cant stop it anymore 😀
I don't know what's worse - being ignorant to antinatalism or openly acknowledging its merit and still going "but I'm still gonna procreate" 🙄🙄
It is a shame when it doesn’t translate into behaviour change!
@@LawrenceAnton It seems a little like veganism in this regard, an awful lot of people actually agree when the case is made well that animal slaughter isn't necessary so logically not consuming animal products is sensible but still continue to do so.
they don't even hide the depopulation agenda now days i see
What "merits", lol?!
Veganism is infinitely more justifiable than anti natalism. The fact that you think you can moralize a whole ass species into extinction is peak delusion.
Maybe off topic but; here is the thing I do not get. I've always suffered from anxiety, even as a small child. My WHOLE life I was told by therapists, doctors, anyone and everyone that anxiety is common, that everyone has it, it's 'normal'. Now if everybody has it, how the hell do I have more anxiety about this woman's unborn child than herself??? 😿
Because you're not normal. That's why. Work on yourself.
@dainfant5101
I wish thumbs down were still visible, because I gave your comment a thumbs down.
Because something like anxiety isn't something you can get rid of completely or so. Re-programming the brain against anxiety is extremely difficult, laborious and painful. And it needs a lot of maintenance. Anxiety has extreme gravity, whereas being relaxed doesn't.
And we shouldn't be forced to deal with anxiety in the first place.
Being anxious in a reality that's full of dangers is partially sensible (at least based on where it's coming from: real risks).
Well, I could go on and on, but you probably don't get it anyways....
@@higherentropy903"you are not normal" wow that's pretty cool, to be a normie isn't something to be proud of
Many of those old people who end up alone actually do have children and grandchildren but these, for one reason or another, just don't visit much.
Or at all.
And that strikes me as an even sadder situation than the person who may be alone because he/she chose not to procreate.
Exactly. There are no guarantees.
I work in a hospital and you’d be shocked how many ‘offspring’s’ begin debates over the not-yet-dead person’s wealth before they’ve even died! 😢
I was brought into this world of poverty and suffering. My mom was in no position to have children but she had me. My dad left when I was born. I wake up everyday with existential dread. I downplay a basic ennui, a kind of world-weariness and Weltschmerz and saudade all in one. Things start to feel futile and useless and deluded. Don't have children if you do not have the means to support them. I do not wish this pain on no one.
but would you want own children?
@@Buydaa.M of course not.
Many of the greatest minds, greatest inventors and most beneficial contributors to society were born in poverty.
@@d3r4g45So conversely, that would mean that people who are born in poverty have a better chance to become great inventors than someone born in easier circumstances …? Or what do you mean?
@@d3r4g45 I doubt it
It's a shame that even honest and intelligent people like her still choose to do the wrong thing "because that's the way it is".
Living and creating life is wrong? lol
Because it is. No moral philosophy on Earth is gonna be appealing enough for a species to convince themselves into extinction.
@@seto_kaiba_ nobody is having kids for survival of species every natalist is having children for their own selfish reasons.
@@d3r4g45Nobody has claimed that living is wrong. As to creating life, I still have not come across an honest, logically and ethically unobjectionable reason for procreation.
@Ftnast if you think living is wrong, you wouldn't be around by now :)
"I agree with that, I agree with that" but let me have my "own" kid anyways 🙄
Great video as always Lawrence!
Sleep and Death are the best parts of life.
even better are just those brief moments of staying in bed all day watching things and eating favourite snacks and drinks
@@Buydaa.Mtrue.
And Balatro.
3:05, does this lady seriously think elderly people with kids are just flooded with visits from them?
As someone who works in a nursing home with people who suffer from dementia (all stages) , Parkinson's and Korsakoff. All except for one have children. In the first two months visits are frequent, but still relatively short visits. After that it's once a week and then they mostly forget about the parent/ friend/ brother/ sister until they're on their deathbed. So no, elderly people are not flooded with company and this lady is delusional.
This was actually refreshing l don't think l have ever come across a natalist who openly admits the legitimacy of antinatalist arguments l believe its because they feel the need to maintain the delusion that their natalist ideology is good and righteous
Even though she is a natalist she admits its selfish is respectful and does not gaslight.Even though she is a natalist, if there is anyone that would make a good mum its her.
Your arguments are not legitimate though. This is the delusion you people engage in. Your ideas are not only profoundly wrong-they are the most morally confused ideology on the planet. Even the most delusional religious fundamentalists are the voice of sanity in a crowd of antinatalists.
Thank you, lawrance, for not calling them breeders and shaming them, but rather take the time to educate and have a civil conversation
It’s the better way forward
@TailgateActivism what?
@TailgateActivism
"Think about all the children that were abandoned by their parents and nobody wanting to adopt them because most people need a child with the same dna. You're tax payer money supports this"
How exactly does it support these spicific people, and what has it to do with having respectful conversation and debate?
Poor breeders 😢
@TailgateActivism The same reason I don't think of even the worst of criminals as anything less than human.
Boundless compassion.
To use the term breeder as derogatory is degrading and only futher seeks to alienate anyinatlism from the rest of the world and vice versa.
This is a philosophy of compassion, and I would expect those who claim to be a part of this philosophy to understand that
"I'm pregnant, stroke my ego"...
I really like the arguement that you cant or should not create people to resolve your problems/ challenges. ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
People do it all the time, to fix their relationship, to prevent loneliness, to (hope to) secure support in old age. I empathise with the issue but creating someone to do that is twisted
@@LawrenceAnton agreed. My parents were old school, they felt the kids needed to act as care givers later in life.
@@pablosilva6988same. It’s called slavery.
@@Joan.Lah-5898 very well said 💯
Wow. Such a respectful ending. I loved it.
It was a great convo!
There's a high chance she will become a single mom at some point before the child reaches 18. That's the real fear immediate danger that comes only second to the risk of permanent injury or death from pregnancy. I can see why you wouldn't want to say either of those to her but clearly suicide risk and climate change just didn't get through
You're paranoid as hell.
Thanks!
Thanks for the support absolute legend!
My position is I can not protect the children.
This lady just might have felt a lot better and less guilty (by her answers of know what is really going on in the world already)
If she had not been pregnant well now it's an irreversible stage unfortunately but this event is a good solid example to the world.
That we just procrete with no discretion whatsoever.
I really dont understand . How stupid are they like that. She says being antinatalist is selfish.
not having children is selfish. all your resources for yourself.
@@d3r4g45 quite a jump there. putting a child who needs those resources even though we live in a world of finite ones in which scarcity thrives is what seems most selfish.
@@francescocerasuolo4064 "putting a child who needs those resources even though we live in a world of finite ones" let me stop you right there in your nonsense. Kid does not need infinite resources. "we live in a world of finite resources" is literally a non argument.
Also, the resources you have access to according to your income, can be spent all on yourself, or spent on a kid. What is more selfish?
@d3r4g45 spending resources on a child that never asked for those resources to be spent on in the 1st place is selfish. Having kids is selfish, because, what reason is there to create a child from nothing that isn't selfish? The moment you say "I want" "for my child" is a completely self serving.
@@d3r4g45 I’m asking you for the 3rd time: tell me ONE non-selfish reason for bringing a child into this world.
The pregnant girl probably wouldn’t have had children if her mother wasn’t so encouraging of procreation. It so annoying how some people as they age, they forget how difficult life is because they are retired and comfortable financially.
Well, at least she's open-minded. ;)
It was a very pleasant suprise!
She’s no different than the climate activist with their children. Complete aware there’s problems with the world but continues to procreate…..
Open minded my axx
@@JT.00000true 😂
still not as open as her thighs
All humans are 99.9999988 related anyway
do these people consider adoption as an option?
Inmendham's catch phrase always springs to mind - "how bad does it have to get before these people say, no sale" ...
They’re already drowning and willing to pull others down with them. Idk when you guys are going it get it. This isn’t ignorance in bliss.
@@ayamystic2
"Idk when you guys are going it get it"
I get it.
And ?
@JB.zero.zero.1 they can be eating poop sandwiches and getting their forehead stamped with government track IDs, and they won't stop
well they always put it in the movies, an alien demon apocalypse can happen and humans will still replicate
These people are the fuel to believe even harder in the antinatalist cause. Such a dull and lame and boring way of thinking things
You have great tact with those who do not share your view. Keep up the great work!
Cheers!
You were very respectful, and show sympathy.
One of the most common arguments for having children was mentioned by the nurse, and that is that having children means that you'll have somebody to look after you when you're old. Many people who have children wind up in a nursing home. Several years ago I saw a post on a childfree forum in which the poster said that they used to visit an old folks home. Out of about 100 old ladies who were there, only a few had never had children, and there were a few more whose children had died before them. The rest of the old ladies all had living children, and in most cases, the children rarely came to visit.
Lawrence, you and your videographer have produced another great work.
It’s wonderful these pronatalists are so comfortable talking to you sharing their worldview. And you With calm and thoughtful dialogue responding.❤❤❤
Cheers John! It was a great convo!
That was a really good conversation, well done!
Cheers!
"Good people" is such a loose concept and it doesn't even make sense that "good people" should procreate.
Thats still a gamble and its of course again is too loose of a concept.
But any child born to a "good parent" isn't going to solve the worlds problems - for one. And what an ungodly burden that would be for a developing child as it is! For another thing, the child could just be traumatized from said "good parent" or from general circumstances and then they end up as a psychopath or something worse... Could even just be some birth defect/genetic thing that causes it.
The „good person“ argument is not valid as it does not change the problem of expected harm for the new person (kid).
What "expected harm"? Does this possible "expected harm" justify not existing? Is your existence such an "unsufferable harm" that justifies non existing? You are still around, so that doesn't seem to be the case.
@@d3r4g45 The “expected harm” justifies in OP’s opinion not creating additional life. Nobody has alleged that that it does “not justify existing”. The latter is your interpretation because you have serious problems with basic reading comprehension and logical thinking.
@@DeliaFasta96 he justifies new life not existing, by his "expected harm". While he is happy to continue existing himself. That is hypocrisy.
@@d3r4g45There’s a huge difference between not procreating and leaving this life. Wake up.
@@DeliaFasta96 He uses the argument that "living is an unsufferable harm".
Most people are forgotten in history, because they did nothing remarkable or interesting. Her children will statistically not achieve much, but hey, they get to enjoy their ice cream as their mother does, as they live in obscurity and irrelevance.
it's a very dangerous fascist idea to exterminate all the people that "live in obscurity, irrelevance and not achieve much"
@@d3r4g45 You're a Ioser on the dole and the only major achievement in your life was breeding eh?
They don't need to be remembered in history to be interesting or remarkable. And I think getting to enjoy ice cream is a good enough reason for someone to live
@@chemtrailsoverthecountryclub The part about history's even truer for you and your gene pooI LOL!
Been watching you for a while, never commented but I just wanted to say I love you man, love what you do and I love how you're always so kind and respectful towards other people no matter what they say
You gotta take the right road. Not the easy one.
@@TheCoolerBrother Which means have kids.
@@fireinthesky2333life is not a gift
it's easy and selfish not to have children
@@fireinthesky2333 yikes your not very bright are you?
@@TheCoolerBrother Heh, you presented two options, and easy road and a right road. As nothing could be easier than antinatalism, this implies or necessitates that having kids is the right road.
4:10 "I have younger children kids too"
That subtle eye of judgement proceeding to look at adult daughter and then back at the mother again, Ooo I can FEEL THAT in my gut! ha ha ha
I feel you Bro :D
You did great Lawrence! I like how you always keep your calm and try your best to educate others about this topic. I really enjoy every video you make 😄
Keep it up you absolute Legend!💯
Alternate Solution: Make a law child above 18 who can file a complaint against parents if their life sucks. And parents before procreate should sign this.
That would actually be such a progress
Im glad you shut that “what about people that have ten kids with no money”. As if people born into money don’t suffer. She agreed with everything you said, but will still continue to have more children.
I so don’t get the urge to “extend my line.” Like the only thing I have of note as a legacy to my life is the art I make, but when I die someone can burn or delete it all for all I care. I mean I suppose I’d rather it continue to exist after my passing, but at the same time I’ll be dead so really why should I give a damn? Same goes for the supposed “legacy” of my hypothetical kids. Just so narcissistic….
For many they don't know until it's too late
you're so amazing for the cause!!!!
what cause?? the death cult cause?
@@d3r4g45 half of the comments are yours 😂. Get a grip
@@yongo1304 half are mine, and still no answer to my arguments lol. so much for this death cult.
A selfish narcissist, what great prospects for a parent. One day her child will watch this and it will all make sense.
i just found out about your channel, i dont feel so alone anymore, and yes i know no ones going to take care of when im old, so be it, i would rather suffer by myself than to bring another innocent human being to suffer with me, i dont want more people to suffer
Why do you think life is only suffering? also why do you think the suffering outweights the positive experiences? And also by so much to make life not worth living? You are obviously still around so that is not the case it seems.
You should live alone in the wild and only rely on yourself when you don't want other people to suffer.
@@d3r4g45The worst suffering is way stronger than the best pleasure.
@@combinero.YT_deletes_comments. wow a poet
@@d3r4g45 read David Benatar, m****. He nicely explained the asymmetry.
Oh, Stop Having Kids has extended to UK it seems. I recommend watching their videos btw, that Deetz guy is really good.
We aren’t an official branch of SHK, we simply used their sign template
Why is it anyone's concern whether someone has children or not?
I like this other woman with a channel named "brave girl" - a mom and antinatalist
ruclips.net/video/9k6ZfuVKGW4/видео.html
She has all my respect in the world
keep preaching the TRUTH brother ❤
Great to see her being open-minded and honest 👍
3:09, more so the reason not to have children who will one day become elderlies and suffer, to love is to not propagate the hate that is disguised as love
This is the result of society becoming too easy and comfortable.
What happened in this video, I would label "value dissonance" rather than a cognitive one; she clearly "got it" but it just didn't click the same way.
Yep
What about an anti-natalist marrying or partnering a natalist (who's already had children) to personally educate them and their children.
Girl is destroying that ice cream
I think this is an important argument to encounter. Not because I believe we should concede to its conclusions, but to realise that as much as we depend on rationality, it can not be used soley to justify reproduction. I think one needs to believe in something more than the materialist world view for it to make sense.
Great work my bro
Keep continu your great work
8:07
You don't even need to mention diseases because it seems possible that humanity could potentially eradicate most of those diseases.
But even if we eradicated all diseases, depression, suicidal tendencies, etc, etc, etc, etc......... there's always going to be a risk that gravity will kill you and no one can escape the effects of gravity.
Lawrence ❤ you are truly brave
This woman is just strait up evil. Best case scenario she has a miscarriage
It's fascinating that she completely acknowledges the legitimacy and validity of antinatalistic arguments and even encourages to "continue doing what they're doing" and to "spread the word" and that she "gets it"....but still seems happy with being pregnant...These arguments don't reach people on the deeper psychological and emotional level of moral conviction even if they might sometimes agree with the logical aspects of the AN argument...
@@Prayerful72K Yeah basically this woman 'gets it' but she just wants other people to adhere to the philosophy and for herself to be the exception. She suffers from a bad case of 'I am me' syndrome.
@@Prayerful72K Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - this inner conflict has been known at least since Ovid‘s time, for ~2000 years that is.
wishes a miscarriage to a woman, but she is the evil one.
@@d3r4g45she’s about to cause someone to possibly live a horrible life and cause them to die 100%. But I’m the evil one
I like you started off with the dumb dumb natalist reasoning "I WANT THO"
Antinatalists do also want to continue to rely on the convenient existence of procreated humans.
Governments need people, so technologies will advance,
Life is all about survival and advancement of technology and not the "mind"
They need workers and not thinkers so that their materialistic stuff would advance
People were and will continue to be around before and after "governments" existed.
It's more like billionaires don't need the poor people anymore, as factories will run on robots. Therefore poor and unemployed people are the threat to the billionaires. So they decided to sterilize poor people with death cults like this.
@@d3r4g45 Developed countries and educated people in every nation tend to have fewer kids, not Iower cIass people in deveIoping countries like you so there goes your lame argument
Good video. I also appreciate the subtitles.
Do you believe all lives are more suffering than pleasure? I don't but I believe a majority are and that it doesn't need to be for antinalism to be true
wonderful conversation
Unfortunately to find a wife you have to accept to have kids, othrrwise you are gonna live alone
Why don't you have an instagram page
I hope these comments won’t be too harsh on these people. They’re being hypocritical, but we all are about some things and sometimes come around to the idea fully at a later time. This philosophy can be so hard to digest!
Why do you care?
Yep, we should berate people who are genuinely trying to understand
Antinatalists are hypocritical when they continue to rely on the existence of procreated humans.
@LawrenceAnton I think a teenager can understand the argument. It's a very basic logical response to a very basic understanding of reality.
@@LawrenceAntonWhy would you berate someone who’s genuinely trying to understand??
You can claim you're not trying to convince her to have an abortion all you want, but ultimately that's what you are doing. You want to convince her having kids is immoral, and since the way for her to not have a kid)(s) at that point is either some random medical/violent event or she has an abortion, you do want her to have an abortion. Or you want her to fall down some stairs I guess, but I assume not that since that would be suffering.
Like you want her to abort, which you see as the moral and responsible thing, or at the least to feel bad about not aborting.
Licking an ice cream like that while formulating an argument for doing nothing but existing passively and opening her legs is crazy.
Yeah, people don't really focus on what's really important and crucial
promoting merch like that while formulating an "antinatalist" argument for "overconsumerism" is doing nothing but existing passively
@@d3r4g45 nice try but that was just a nonsensical word salad
I think it was awesome and hilarious-looking at it from an absurdist point of view.
just ask them the question "if you were in the german concentration camp would you still bother to reproduce because you find having children is a beautiful thing " and see them stutter 😂😂
Antinatalists do ironically still rely on the procreated people working in the so called german concentration camp.
That's a stupid point?! She is not currently living in a concentration camp.
@@dainfant5101 The concentration camp is a depiction of a world filled with suffering.
@@dainfant5101 its an analogy man with the racism, violence against women, economic instability, war and terrorism, economic inequality and with the climate change it feels like we're getting much closer to the concentration camp scenario
Is she living in a german concentration camp?
You still looking for counter argument?😂
3:36 I’ll look after you Lawrence 😉
Do you think bojack horseman is antinatalism series?
You tell me
Wow I just started rewatching it this week!
I think it's an interesting portrayal of depression, substance abuse and other difficulites people face in different stages of life.. And the negative aspects of life people usually don't think about, from several points of view.
Including that of successful people that supposedly "have it all" and are expected to be happy but are far from it (bojack, sarah-lyn..)
I think it might affirm people who are already leaning towards the antinatalist conclusion, but I think it would fly over the heads of natalists. They would probably think "bojack's parents are awful, I will be much better so my kid will be happy" or whatever..
Overall I think it's a great show, but I'm not sure antinatalism is it's ultimate goal.
@@ro6493 thank you
@@梁鹤飞 no
🎉🎉
🔥🔥
Antinatalist should lead by example. Correct the error their parents made.
By not having kids.
@@MustObeyTheRules If he really thinks having children is that bad, that his parents made a mistake in having him and that life is worthless suffering, he would have ended it. ;)
@@d3r4g45 that’s not what antinatalism means. Typical predictable robot response. Are y’all all programmed to say the same thing or?
@@MustObeyTheRules well try to put forward a counter argument instead of personal attacks. as the npc is you not me in this case. lol
@@d3r4g45 no the NPC is definitely you. Not one thing about antinatalism is pro suicide.
Lawrence you're such a good soul ~
I feel compelled to offer counter narrative and opinion to the many here arguing that life is horrible and that reproduction is evil.
Firstly, please dont mistake me as some fundamentalist religous fanatic, or someone who can not understand the sound logic behind the antinatalist argument. I have personally withdrawn from any relationship through fear of inevitably bringing a child in to the world, just at the time all hell will break loose. I believe I have made the right choice, but I still reserve the right to father a child at a later date, should circumstance and outlook change. Either way, it is not the end of the world.
Now, I think this argument is a great example to discuss the polarity of all things. Because love and hate are two sides of the same coin, and the side it lands for you, greatly depends on the world view you have, and more importantly, your fundamental understanding of the nature of reality.
For example, if your view is that reality is physical, consciousness an illusion emerging from matter, and life having no purpose other than that we imagine, then at this frequency this coin will land on antinatalism. You will hate reality and resent those that reproduce.
If however, you were to believe for example as a theist would believe, which is that the universe was created for purpose of life, then on top of the instilled desire to reproduce that is understood naturally, one would have the perceived will of God behind them. At this frequency, antinatalism would present itself as evil and the words of the devil, or something along those lines.
One can not assert one side of this argument without substantiating their understanding of reality, and in all cases be mindful that this understanding may be wrong. If it were, your polarity would shift accordingly, independent of the logic of the argument, as described.
Personally I am more and more of the opinion that the universe is mental in nature. There are paradoxes encountered with the contrary world view that dissappear if we switch our presumptions and look at matter as an emergent property of consciousness. This eliminates the hard problem of understanding how consciousness emerges from matter without reason, and also eliminates the stupid paradox that at some point we got something from nothing. It would just be mind from mind. In this case, I have to allow for the real possibility that the reality as we know was willed into existence, and life exists through a greater will also.
I used to think all this thinking was nonsense because the people I heard discuss it were people like deepak chopra and he is a snake oil salesman. But over the last few years it has been making more sense. Worth checking out Roger Penrise work on quantum consciousness.
Anyway, I hope at the least we can all agree that this argument is black and white only within specific understandings of reality, and that all people will have a different experience and understanding of reality. It is wise to not see it as a matter of good or evil.
Dude is just promoting a death cult in order to sell his merch.
@d3r4g45 I am not so cynical. I trust that this man is truly possessed by the argument and feels compelled to preach it.
@@d3r4g45Can you debate him on a logical level? Obviously not.
That's magical thinking, not actual physics. This is why atheists and even more moderate religious people view you religious fundies as wackos.
@@d3r4g45 Jealous because he's probably making more money than you are? The class envy of manual laborers
Now I want some ice cream 🍦
"If I don't have kids other people will" Well I guess that justifies, rape, murder, etc then?
He is like: Your children will only contribute to the pollution, climate change and meaningless overconsumerism.
Also him: Anyways, here is the link for my merch.
It is not allowed to have a clothes?
@@combinero.YT_deletes_comments. People should give up having children because it is selfish and makes climate change and overconsumerism only worse. But he can sell his merch lol.
I personally dont agree with abortion because theres too many infertile couples trying to adopt
Fortunately, your religiously antiquated beliefs don't dictate reproductive policy in the more developed parts of the world.
Abortion doesn’t put a dent in the availability of adoptable children.
@@heidizuri To reIigious nuts, abortion=homicide. Funny how almost none of them want to execute or imprison abortionists for life if that's really what they believe though.
We are living in era best for kids (statisticaly). Less wars, less danger, encreasing level of living all over the wotld. People have better and better education exponencialy encrrasing the probability in energy, health or travel breakthrough. In fact, we did in last centuries as a mankinf GREAT! leap towards being able to survive external extinction event. In fact we are doing GREAT..... Arguments used ibn vid are of that "short horizon" ones.
@@dewiwilliams4821 People had children during the black plague. Just admit that you don't like kids or you don't like to compromise and put the effort into raising one.
@dainfant5101 my wider opinion is outlined as below.;
I feel compelled to offer counter narrative and opinion to the many here arguing that life is horrible and that reproduction is evil.
Firstly, please dont mistake me as some fundamentalist religous fanatic, or someone who can not understand the sound logic behind the antinatalist argument. I have personally withdrawn from any relationship through fear of inevitably bringing a child in to the world, just at the time all hell will break loose. I believe I have made the right choice, but I still reserve the right to father a child at a later date, should circumstance and outlook change. Either way, it is not the end of the world.
Now, I think this argument is a great example to discuss the polarity of all things. Because love and hate are two sides of the same coin, and the side it lands for you, greatly depends on the world view you have, and more importantly, your fundamental understanding of the nature of reality.
For example, if your view is that reality is physical, consciousness an illusion emerging from matter, and life having no purpose other than that we imagine, then at this frequency this coin will land on antinatalism. You will hate reality and resent those that reproduce.
If however, you were to believe for example as a theist would believe, which is that the universe was created for purpose of life, then on top of the instilled desire to reproduce that is understood naturally, one would have the perceived will of God behind them. At this frequency, antinatalism would present itself as evil and the words of the devil, or something along those lines.
One can not assert one side of this argument without substantiating their understanding of reality, and in all cases be mindful that this understanding may be wrong. If it were, your polarity would shift accordingly, independent of the logic of the argument, as described.
Personally I am more and more of the opinion that the universe is mental in nature. There are paradoxes encountered with the contrary world view that dissappear if we switch our presumptions and look at matter as an emergent property of consciousness. This eliminates the hard problem of understanding how consciousness emerges from matter without reason, and also eliminates the stupid paradox that at some point we got something from nothing. It would just be mind from mind. In this case, I have to allow for the real possibility that the reality as we know was willed into existence, and life exists through a greater will also.
I used to think all this thinking was nonsense because the people I heard discuss it were people like deepak chopra and he is a snake oil salesman. But over the last few years it has been making more sense. Worth checking out Roger Penrise work on quantum consciousness.
Anyway, I hope at the least we can all agree that this argument is black and white only within specific understandings of reality, and that all people will have a different experience and understanding of reality. It is wise to not see it as a matter of good or evil.
@@dewiwilliams4821 "No, there is shortly to be chaos" ah yes don't make children based on my doom and gloom fortune telling
@d3r4g45 No I truly wish for you to follow your own heart and mind, genuinely.
@@dewiwilliams4821 Your future fortune telling is not arguments.
People living trough the black plague, ww1 and 2, starving in the ice ages...
Some dude in 2024 in the UK: OMG my frappucino is not hot enough, i literally can't bare to make children to suffer trough this, i have so much free time and energy on my hands i will protest about how life is so unbareable.
If you watch his most viewed video, he literally says that his life is very good and privileged and that his kids would probably suffer much less than the average human. He still doesn't think it's necessary for him or that there are any good reasons to do it. Moreover, he does activism for other causes and donates a large portion of his income, which are important things that could not be done if he was putting new individuals into existence.
did you even watch the whole video lol
@@josephancion2190 We are living the most abundant, most comfortable, easiest, with the least sufferint and the most positive human experience in human history. All his death cult depopulation agenda "arguments" make no sense.
@@d3r4g45
Yeah, those people had children in spite of horrible conditions. They were used as tools in the army and fodder, subjected to a horrible disease.
And to chalk his whole argument up to his drink is disingenuous and completely intellectually dishonest
@@saggyshaggy People survived not for anyone elce but first and foremost for themselves. And people lived way way harsher realities than he, now, in the UK, has. For him to call life "unbareable suffering" lol.
She absolutely destroyed you , Anton. Once again breeders showing why antinatalism is pathetic bs.
Where exactly
@@barcodekilla1138 I forgot to put "sarcasm on"
@@elCamaradaR It doesn't take a lot to destroy the "arguments" of a death cult
@@elCamaradaR are you an anti-natalist?
@@francescocerasuolo4064 I guess that everyone is an anti natalist, people become natalist for a moment during sex and after that, they go back to a regular non procreation state.
In my case, I was being sarcastic , I really hate all parents.
Yes people suffer but if you are not clinically depressed then life is still worthwhile and people are overall grateful to be alive and are joyful to continue the cycle. Even if you are, there are treatments that keep getting better.
That said, if you're going around saying life is horrible and you're this perturbed by what you see in the world, then I suppose you're more likely to have kids who feel that way given heritability.
So I guess there's nothing to discuss. It's self selection at work. The more successful your anti natalist campaign, the more the world will be filled with happy to be alive and reproducing natalists and their progeny.
Life is torture, parasitism, wars, predation, rape, diseases, poverty and many other things. Pleasure can't justify all this torture.
@@combinero.YT_deletes_comments. If that list is all you see and you cannot see any reason to live, then you are depressed. Please seek treatment. If you do you will stop seeing everything as so hopeless.
@@caustinolino3687 I am just saying that all this horrible things make life an evil thing. Plus any pleasure is just diminishment of pain. For example, you will not get a pleasure from drinking water if you do not have desire to drink water (unsatisfied desires are painful, especially if they strong ) ( pleasure is only valuable because it is diminishment of pain, otherwise the absence of pleasure would not be a problem).
@@combinero.YT_deletes_comments. Pleasure is only diminishment of pain if you have a totally carnal conception of pleasure. Pleasure, in the sense of contentment, can exist with pain and even override it.
You may be in physical pain but if your attitude is one of contentment and gratitude, you don't mind the pain. For example, if I am sleep deprived and suffering because of my newborn whom I love, I feel the pain but don't mind it. Im even grateful for it. It's a "lucky problem to have" so to speak. In other words, your attitude towards pain is ultimately what determines your subjective experience of it.
Back to the subject of clinical depression, I realize your brain is distorted to the point where none of this resonates with you. For a quick reality check, 99.99+% of people not only enjoy life enough to want to be alive, they would go to the ends of the Earth to stay alive.
You can focus on the 1 in 10,000 or whatever who disagrees, but being such a rare exception should prove the point that the way you're seeing things is not an objective appraisal of reality. It's the result of a distortion in perception that is rare.
For another reality check, it's been proven repeatedly that people in poorer circumstances are less depressed than those in material abundance. Eg, the average Thai is happier than the average German. If satisfaction with live and experience of pain were all that mattered, then happiness should go up the more options you have to avoid pain. Except it doesn't work that way at all.
This is straightforward medical condition you have that is causing you to see everything in such dire hopeless terms, even though reality doesnt match the your stark perception. It's a well understood disorder and there are treatments.
I feel bad that videos like this drive you deeper into that depressive hole instead of help lift you out of it. They make you think this is a philosophical matter vs a simple neurochemcial and cognitive matter.
From the way you're talking you are probably in a materially wealthy country. That means you have access to treatment. Give that a try instead of letting an inhuman ad algorithm drive you further down a pointless unnecessary hole.
@@caustinolino3687
Ideas don't die
"Life is short, and truth works far and lives long: let us speak truth"
-Arthur Schopenhaur
the flat earthers moved on to "antinatalism" now
What do you mean?
@@combinero.YT_deletes_comments. a breediot troll.
@@mariaradulovic3203 haha. do tell me, who do you expect to make the bread for you when you are 50.. 70.. 90 years old? Who do you expect to nurse you when you get sick? Oh it's the other people children.
@@d3r4g45 Oh, you want someone to care for you when you’re old. That’s a really non-selfish reason to have kids.
@@DeliaFasta96 Every breath you take is a selfish act of self preservation. Nothing wrong with "selfish" in it's own. But you didn't answer my question, who will make the bread, who will nurse you, who will run the society if no one makes children? Like literally how do you imagine that to function?
Suffering is part of life. It's what gives meaning to life. Anti-natalism is pretty close to suicidality, IMO. Having kids is a deep drive of life, not a rational thing.
If you natalists truly care about life and not simply the creation of it, I don't believe u'd allow the world to turn into the situation it is today, where a human successfully offs himself every 40 seconds, and I haven't even got data on those who failed to do so. This is literally how wonderful the world has become
Heard way too much of your side's verbal diarrhoea. When is parental licensing finally gonna be a thing? So no more murderers, homeless people etc are created? And when are we as humans gonna finally sit down and discuss solutions to all humanity's problems? No schedule? Just want to keep popping more humans here so they can repeat the struggles?
PS: u confused starting a new life vs ending existing life, yet again. AN is about not starting fresh new lives, not ending existing life. So that suicidality point u were trying to make is yet again, invalid, just like all those who think they oppose AN.
Lying in a hospital bed with your hair falling out from chemo gives meaning to your life? Are u serious?
@@antinataliz9633 I didn't say that chemo gives meaning to life; I said suffering does. A life without suffering is no life at all. Think about it.
@@Zzyzzyx last I checked suffering from cancer is a form of suffering. Unless u like cherry picking to fit your arguments🤪
@@Zzyzzyxu can spend all day specifying which suffering gives life meaning and which does not, but your child doesn't get to choose which to suffer from, Ur imposing risk of any and every suffering u also cannot choose onto him