I explain my thoughts on Oldhammer www.patreon.com/letstalktabletop #tabletopwargames #warhammerageofsigmar #tabletopwargaming #gamesworkshop #warhammer40k #warhammeroldworld #oldhammer
The reasons why people might be interested in "Oldhammer" can be so different... * Nostalgia and relive childhood * Casual > Tournament * Army sizes * The old rules * The old minis * Goblin green bases and brightly painted minis and so on :) The OldHammer I remember was about fun & creativity. We built terrain on our own, painted minis and wasn't influenced by YT. A game was about just having fun or to see how a scenario would end up if we mixed this terrain with those minis and maybe some victory conditions. Minis were cute, bright, colorful and had goblin green bases. Rules were a bit wonky and unbalanced but we made our own rules to compensate. You want to bring those OP Terminators, then I get to bring some extra firepower... And let us not forget the lore that was full of unexplained mysteries and strange, dark events :) It feels like NewHammer is only about winning tournament with rules that are still unbalanced and consumption in the form of purchasing the latest meta list that is based on GW stock. I am currently thinking on building a Dark Elf army next but need to paint a bit more from my current backlog. Why? Because it is that one army I wanted as a kid but could not afford collecting. I will use the OPR rules instead of anything from GW for a faster and more modern game but is thinking on writing my own rule system (have past professional game design experience) because there are so many things I want to try and improve (even have some interesting ideas already). We are lucky to be here, there are so many fun possibilities today :)
IMO the biggest hurdle to oldhammer is people think newer editions are somehow better more complete games. (They are not. Sometimes they are MORE broken.) Someting i learned in the boardgame community. An old game you havent played before is just a NEW game. If you want to get someone to play an oldhammer, just ask. I have never had a shortage of players. (Also how many regular players do you need? Ive been in a club with 2-6 people for 20 years) The problem with new units isnt as bad as you think. Harlequins, knights, custodes etc. ALL have fan codexes out there on the internet for the popular oldhammer editions. (Often with better balance than GW because of open source playtesting and no $ for points influence).
Came here to basically say this. There’s also just plain proxy for updated models. Prefer the look of primaris? Just use them and convert into tactical squads or whatever.
i actually got into playing the tabletop 40k through finding that 5th edition's rules were way more straight forward to learn and more fun to play, tho some friends who play 10th ed say the main thing stopping them from playing 5e is their army isn't playable, where do you find these fan codexes?
Certainly true, Some old editions suck (1st ed. Bloodbowl is unplayable), many have flaws. The fanmade editions of Fantasy ere quite good though! Very well playtested and playable, each with its specialty. Armies Project is deep and complete, Renaissance is earlier edition and well made, 9th age is tournament-based, On the other hand, GW is notoriously bad in writing rules and balance, and each edition that starts anew.
Weeelll... there are really two types of new edition... 1. the kind that tries to fix problems with the old game but is essentially the same game most, (but not all) new editions of board games are of this type. 2. those new editions that are just different to sell more product. Most, (not all) rpgs and miniatures games fall into this camp. While the first type are usually improvements on their predecessors, the second type are... just a new set of problems.
If you find someone who likes 5th, and you like 3rd, you compromise like adults. That's part of oldhammer. You can't just find a like-minded individual, fold your arms, and give up because of a slight edition difference.
I’ve had this issue with getting my son into Warhammer. I know and love 2nd Edition 40k and 5th edition WFB. I love the creativity, the storytelling, the smaller scale. I hate the newer ‘tournament first’ - someone must win’ - look at my titan scale creep mentality of these newer editions. 9th and 10th were impenetrable to me with all the faction specific stratagems…. The boy is trying out 2nd edition. Oldhammer forever.
dear gods! the scale creep in physical models, points required, and rules bloat is just insane! though... tbf... 2nd Ed. was not known for being "rules lite" by any stretch. modern 40k has long since lost the creativity and drama of past editions. though both 40k and WFB had some serious balance issues in the past, many of those were very commonly house-ruled to such an extent, those rules are readily available for anyone looking to bring more balance to older editions.
Oldhammer is not about the rules, it‘s about the miniatures. It is about the nostalgia of collecting the army you wanted as a kid. I now have a 4th edition Dwarf army and I love it.
I know! I was just laying in bed reading my third edition dark eldar book for nostalgia even though I started in 5th edition. I love those old books. They had a ton of character.
@LetsTalkTabletop yeah I got into it all back in 1999, so just at the tail end of the era of creativity, those 90s and early 2000s books are just insane for the lore and hobby content
Rules or genestealer cults are in White Dwarf and compatible with 3rd-5th Also the create your own vehicle rules allow for knights. I guess my point is the game was much more of a sandbox. If you are passionate enough you can find people to play with!
Some of what you say makes sense, and some of it is a bit weird. You seem to not make any distinction between models of an era and rules of an era. It's totally possible to use Primnaris models as Space Marines, and it's totally possible to use the "new" Harlequin models with the Rogue Trader rules.
right? plus, while the older Harlie models may have been OOP, they were still around for a long time and, until recently, you could get them at reasonable prices. there's no reason not to use new models in older editions. it's not that hard to write up the stats, rules and pts to play models that came after any given edition. and you can still appreciate someone who shows up with an old school army.
Older rules arent for comfort. Noone plays Chess cause its comfortable. Older rules are there cause you KNOW that they will be good. That they will be fun.
The problem isn't comfort or familiarity. It's what type of fun people want. Picture a roller coaster at an amusement park. It's incredibly exciting and fun. Rule 1: Keep arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times to avoid dismemberment and/or death. It would be fun if you could disobey this rule without consequence of being thrown out, but not if your arms get ripped off. It stays. Rule 2: Wait your turn. Have to stand in line for hours to get on the ride. It would be great if you didn't have to...but to be fair everyone does. Rule stays. Everyone wants the roller coaster but you're never getting that in an RPG. Literally. House ruling out portions of the game may make it easier to play, but you've removed some of the challenge. You're taking on a company of enemies several hexes away? Hope you gather supplies for the journey there and back... Oh, you aren't bothering with those rules. Ok, well, the weather is... oh, you aren't using environmental rules either. Well, it takes... oh, no transit time either. You're just there. And there's no need to scout around for the enemy because they're all just at the destination like they're waiting for you but are completely unaware of you as well. And there's less than 10 of them if you include the boss so you're barely outnumbered and there is no need to come up with strategies or advanced tactics... Fun game.
I have built a community at my local club who play 2nd edition. From 2 of us who began playing games there we now have a dozen players locally who are interested and playing. This has happened because others have seen us play and talking to others about why we enjoy playing 2nd ed. Sometimes you have to build a community, which is work but well worth it. Also there is nothing stopping you from using new models in old games. That said the joy of this hobby is it is a broad church and you can dive into whatever peeks your interest.
I like this video. The part of my brain that is hard to turn off is telling me to say, there's the 2nd edition genestealer cult army list that you can convert to newer editions with a little work, and I just want to say it in a friendly way, people who love the hobby can do it, but I also want to say I understand your point that there wasn't an official genestealer cult army in 3rd edition or other editions until they were re-introduced, I get that point, but they did exist in 2nd. But yeah, not all factions had army lists in all editions, a very fair point. but yeah harlequins were another 2nd edition thing that existed that could be put into other editions.
Now you got any advantage of playing this big commercial product neutralized, and you might as well play your house rules with random minis, but there's probably reasons why many people are not doing that already
the solution is: Play the game and have fun! Find a few like minded folks and come up with your own narrative if you want. This goes for all board games and miniature war games. Stop over analyzing every sentence in a rule book and stressing about the "meta"....nuff said
I think the issues you mention are a bit of phallacies. I mean a little. The issues you mention can be turned around I think. The old editions dont have some models the new editions introduced. But look - New editions also deleted some of those old units and dont support them anymore (IG Conscripts) Thats actually why Im more an OPR supporter then the Oldhammer one. If I dont have a unit in OPR, I can just create a ruleset quickly in an open calculator. If there is a custom race that I want to make - I can and no corporate shill can tell me otherwise. The "gamers playing only current edition" is a bit more complex. Of course you are right that its important to play with someone and its really hard to bring change into a group, rather then just join this group. But it is possible. If nobody brought change, then we would still be living in caves. I think its important to try to accomodate for everyone. Maybe play current edition one time, play another one later, so at the end of the day you can both enjoy time spent together. But the real issue of it I think is completely elsewhere. People are afraid to be different. They will pick the "default" choice most of the time. And in this hobby they will stick it to the "safety" of current edition, current errata etc. Thats why so many people worry about models being "Tournament legal" even though they never had nor will take part in a 40k tournament. I was the same for some time. But after you open your eyes for the possibility of different rulesets, you realize that well 1st: you can learn and play any system. One massive rulebook is as hard as the other. 2nd: You might actually find rulesets you enjoy more then the default choice. 3rd: You might actually be more creative then you realize, because you force yourself to operate within a limiting framework of current ruleset. When that barrier drops, its much easier to try and play new and other things. You ACTUALLY become a Wargamer, not just a 40k player.
I can't argue with anything you said! It just depends on your point of view. You said you have coped with one page rules, and I could definitely see doing that. I have barely played any Warhammer in the last couple months because of my enthusiasm for Mass Brutality.
@LetsTalkTabletop Of course. My point was that the quality of a ruleset in the long run is very much dependent on the opennes of the unit designer system. Because you're right. Well If I switch games, what the heck will I do noe with all those minis I put so much time into?! OPR is a great example for that, just get some random models and throw dice. I personally love and mostly stick to Five Parsecs family. It gives me a perfect level of complexity while focusing mostly on the story and emergent natrative which is what I enjoy a lot (And yeah, not a lot of time to play with others ATM, but I can play one skirmish of 5PH over 4 days with 10 minute sessions ;) ) When it comes to players I just wanted to underline that the difficulty is not in "getting them to play something else" but in making them realize that they actually "CAN play something else" and still keep to the same fantasy. I think one and only blocker might be for the strictly competetive players. If they want to go with official tournaments, they will treat most of their games as practice. But I think competetive players are a bit of a different breed then the rest (not better or worse, just different). Cheers!
@@HBon111 Yeah basically. Each and every unit specific rule (for any faction), each and every statistic, weapon characteristic etc. have a certain point value and you can quickly design your custom units with a handy online calculator. So you can for example create a chem-corps unit by creating a simmilar unit of Human faction veterans and give them guns with toxin rules from a "tyranid" faction and have points calculated for that.
You have covered the combinations and permutations very well. And I can see your argument about new players perhaps. However, there are many many folk who play monopoly or chess or Avalon Hill games that haven't changed in decades/centuries. And let's face it none of us play the same game exclusively week to week year to year. For instance I play BattleTech and Full Thrust which haven't changed since the 1990's. The final question is do you want to be in a continual tail chase throwing money at GW for tournament play or do you want to play a stable rules set with the moderate disadvantage of probably having to be miniatures agnostic? New players still play old games, and with the entry and even the sustainment cost of 40K being ludicrously high it is probably a better way to start and keep going. Not that there is anything wrong with expensive tournament play, it is just not for everyone. Now on the plus side. Thanks for the Shore Hammer poster in the back! Did not know that existed. I will have to keep an eye out for it next year.
I think you're completely right and what you're saying, but the biggest sticking point for me is that my local gaming club is not interested in older editions so my options personally are to either play by myself or don't play at all if I want to old hammer. I was just reminiscently looking at my third edition dark eldar codex the other night, even though I started in 5th edition. The older edition certainly have more charm than the current. And yes! 2025 is our 10th year for shorehammer! It is specifically and exclusively a casual convention and it's the first weekend of December each year. We'd love to have you!
My first inclination when I began re-collecting my old armies was that I would play an older edition with them. But then I realized, "OR, I could just paint and display them."
Another problem you didn't mention. Getting hold of certain things. Rule books are available used, but are slowly dwindling in supply, and certain codexs run the risk of being scalped as they become "rare collectors items". Same with certain models, but there's always proxys, third party, or 3D print.
Just ask a good prospect to try oldhammer, if you think its more fun, it'll spread. At my club we *🎉* the new editions because we think they are boring and bad. Even new players catch the rift they enjoy 4th, we even try 10th with them an let them rip at why the older versions are better. Would be horrible if you only could eat McDonalds because "thats what 'all the others' prefere" 😅 Enjoy your games 🍻
I came back to the hobby recently (stopped in 5th). My biggest hurdle is overcoming the bad habits I have from back then. My friends never wanted objectives, so we just did army wipes. This doesn't translate well into 10th and almost coast me a W in a tournie over the weekend. Purge was the mission, so I went full send with World Eaters and was in his deployment on Turn 1. I never left. This came to bite me in the ass as my Avocado failed a battleshock or he'd have gone back to my home obj. He passed the next round, but my home objective had some raptors on it, and he had 1 wound left, so I moved him up to support instead of falling back to take/hold. I ended up winning 64 to 56, but it should have never been that close. I'm meeting up with a friend this weekend to go over 10th with him, and I'm hoping that spending time with him, I'll break these habits.
Funnily enough I played a 2000 point game of 5th ed 40k yesterday with a friend. World eaters Vs Imperial Guard. It was an absolute slaughter! After 5 turns all that remained were 1 Leman Russ Punisher and 3 land raiders. 40 Khorne Berserkers, Kharn 84 Guardsmen, and Kell and Creed lay dead on the battlefield! XD A little while ago I wrote up some concept rules creating turning other Chaos units, such as Bikers and terminators, into Cult units for Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch armies. Have yet to play test them.
My original 1978 Advanced D&D books still work. I have dozens of original modules. They began the "updating game" back in the late 1980s. I've played games off and on since then. Some were new, so they had nothing to unlearn. Others had played and were familiar already. Bottom line, if it worked in 1982, it'll still work now.
I steered my friends away from 10th edition 40k before they got a chance to get into it and showed them 9th edition. Basically all they need to do is paint the models they like, read the rules, and make a proper force, all without the struggle of having to keep up with GW's insane releases. Also, since most of the units in 9th are still in production, they're pretty easy to acquire. But if not, they could buy used from ebay or FB marketplace. As for codices, its very common to find 9th edition books floating around the internet and sometimes in a flgs. Plus I have a bookshelf full of them, so everyone could look through them.
one big problem for the Oldhammer and Middlehammer community is that a lot of the rulebooks are scarce/expensive now, for example, any edition of fantasy before 6e increases sharply in price (though forge world campaign books have always been pricey and a pain to find), I was very fortunate to have been able to buy a mint copy of fantasy 2e with blood bath at orc's drift for only £25 pounds but that was because it was from the clearout of the seller's passed on friend and wanted it to go to a good home that would use it. That's not a common occurrence and others would have to pay upwards of 75-200 pounds for even a damaged book, some games like Rogue Trader don't have it to such a degree as it was reprinted recently and along with 3e fantasy it has some of its books available at Warhammer world which isn't terribly accessible for everyone but does increase their presence in the second-hand market, what the community really needs is to do what the OSR in the RPG sphere did and create some retro-clones of these systems to go with all the nice oldhammer proxy minis but to my knowledge only rogue trader has this, though there might be one for 2e fantasy but I'm not certain as it's in Turkish.
I'm primarily an oldhammer collector/gamer. I love the old models, prefer painting them to the hyper detailed new stuff, and I freely admit that nostalgia is a big part of it, too. I've sometimes looked at starting modern 40k or AoS, but the constant churn of new editions, new releases etc, always put me off. Even Kill Team and the like is on a season model, and I just couldn't keep up with that. I asked my group if we could play some old editions, they readily agreed. Now we play 2nd and 3rd ed 40k, and before the release of The Old World , we would play WFB 5th, 6th, or 7th. But yeah, there's no right or wrong with this. Do what makes you happy. A lot of the miniatures released these days are absolutely beautiful, and if you enjoy modern 40k or AoS, or anything else, thats awesome. Actually, I've recently started playing Spearhead with one of my friends and really enjoying it!
I think this should not be such a big issue as you can use the same minis to play 3d edition, 6th edition, 9th Age, Old World, One Page Rules etc. It's just an issue of finding time, not people because of that. I think projects like 9th Age are a nice compromise- as they are updated, so there is some change and refreshment only at a normal pace, and they are built upon ideas form the past ruleset that should be OK for fans of the older Warhammer editions. I mean this is speculation on my part as I don't play WH :P
I agree with you in that it is easier to find games of the latest edition. However I disagree with your other examples. If you and a buddy choose different editions, like 3rd and 6th as you suggested, justly swap back and forth! It's not to hard and the rules don't change that much. There is also a constant stream of people leaving the latest edition for older editions. All that being said, I like your channel and your point of views!
i have an undead army that can be a vampire coutns army, i use old base sizes and a base size adapter, it can play all the old editions of warhammer, and i have the newest stuff for them to use the in the old world if needs be, i can click play into them like with lego. my dwarf army is on bigger bases but they can alsoi be used in the old warhammer editions
I play Oldhammer because I like rank and flank traditional style tabletop war gaming. That's why I turned my nose up at Age of Sigmar and would sooner bite down on the muzzle of a gun than ever play it. If I want to play a squad orientated 'Round base' tabletop game I will play 40k.
Hey! I just found your channel and I love the real down to earth videos you make. It's really refreshing to step away from streams of guys in webcams talking about stats or actual powerpoint presentations on hardcore optimization and just catch a guy in his game room somewhere talking about cool ways to have a ton of fun. I skew younger in the wargaming community, I started about 4 years ago in my early 20's, and I feel like a lot of the guys I play with my age just don't...have that mentality about wargames. They treat warhammer like its a video game if you catch my meaning which I guess I don't blame them for because that's the variety of nerd tradition we've all come up from; but it hurts our games and ignited a god damn miniature arms race among my buddies as they attempted to chase the thrill of, I guess, spending money blowing up each other's not even painted plastic dudes with other unpainted plastic dudes with stupid rules shenanigans they found online while getting kinda pissed. Not what the hobby was ever made for obviously. I'm hoping in our next surge of warhammer I can pull them back into 3rd edition AoS so we can stop worrying about meta chasing in our casual gaming group, but I wish there was kinda an older wiser grognard to make these suggestions among us so I stopped sounding like a crazy old man all the time.
Thanks for the kind words and I think you're exactly right, it's a ton of fun to just chill and play games. I do think a lot of people come from video games where you always minimize and maximize your stats for optimal efficiency, and winning is the only thing you care about. So then it translates on the table. I think you have the right outlook for it, and hopefully you can slowly convert them to a more narrative and casual style.
Honestly, I'm just gonna be playing Mass Brutality from now on. For me it does what any of Warhammer's editions have failed to do. Can't beat the customization.
I keep getting comments about the audio quality. To be honest with you I am probably tone deaf or something of that nature, because it sounds fine to me. I bought about five different microphones to use with my phone and this is the only one that would work via bluetooth. The other ones needed headphone jacks which my phone does not have and when I used an adapter for the USB to make it a headphone jack I got terrible buzzing in the background. So if you have a suggestion I'd be happy to hear it but it basically has to be Bluetooth. And I think the Bluetooth is probably the issue.
Brainwashing my children is my answer! There no gaming clubs anymore in my area annd we are in the middle of no where in Australia. Just 3 to 4 years more to go! But I miss the FW imperial armour books.
So much depends on the local group and gaming locations. In my area everyone I played 40k with quit when 9th ed. dropped. We tried playing a jury-rigged 5th ed., but as you point out that came with its own issues. OPR ended up gaining a good following and then took off when 10th ed. landed. I do like the rise of model agnostic gaming, since I like using the models I bought and painted. I'd just prefer not to re-learn a ruleset every year. Glad I found your video (praise the algorithm), its good to see alternatives to the GW monolith.
For the first half of the video I thought you were talking about older editions of Old World Warhammer Fantasy, not Warhammer in general. I was also confused when talk about Harlequins in 5th edition. I knew someone who played Harlequins in 5th edition... but then I though maybe you were talking about Harlequins as they own army... Otherwise I very much agree with everything you said. I've been out of the hobby since 5th edition 40k (I did play a couple in 7 or 8th) and 8th edition Fantasy. I keep thinking about coming back, but I just haven't yet.
So your only problem according to this video is the problem of finding someone to play against? That is not a huge setback. And rules for most new models someone has usually already made somewhere online.
It's not just Oldhammer, it's almost any Tabletop Wargame besides WH40k. Locally there is a strong scene for Middle Earth Strategy Game, also by GW, but after that....player numbers drop drastically. No reason for me to start a GW System but it's brutal.
2nd ed 40k was my favorite. I normally played with friends and family and I supply all the models so it's not an issue. Sill figuring out TOW but I may go back to 6th ed WHFB for the same reasons. The biggest issue nowadays is everyone chases the meta, whether it's MMOs, tabletop, etc., and the rules overlords at the company need to take that into effect with all the FAQs etc. Of the new rules, I did enjoy playing a few games of Combat Patrol and I haven't tried Spearhead yet but I'm excited to give it a try. Another main gripe is having to buy Codexes every edition. I don't know how anyone gets excited for a new codex, I'd rather spend that money on new models.
the problem i am having with GW is not the models. i love thier models. except the primarus marines. they are great looking models, but how all that was handled and making my 1000 firstborn obsolete is that issue. is they design the game to be broken to sell whatever models they want to push. and then they release quarterly fixes. how about just make balance rules. I have no interest in 10th 40k. so i switched gears. maybe ill pick up 11th. I have friends that like old hammer as much as i do. its a small group, however i like it that way, no need to talk politics, or diversity crap, its just us getting down and rolling dice.
I got into Wargammer only a few months ago by playing 3rd edition with dome friends that have been doing this for a while. The only problem is that my necrons are not particularly fleshed out and they are not willing to allow a made up a data sheet for some of the newer units.
Hello! Completely & horribly off-topic: is that amazing display case behind your back custom made? I am looking for something like that, so far no luck.
Thanks! They are Funko Pop display cases from amazon. There are two sizes, one that is 40 something dollars and one that is around $80. The ones behind me are the $80 versions because they are a better price per square inch of space.
Hi Scott, nice video as always! I'm from Brazil and here we don't have support or even the miniatures to buy but because of the Warhammer Fantasy RPG we known the Warhammer franchise. Because of many games me and friends became to turn fans of 40k and search on the internet i start to like very much of Age of Sigmar and thankfully the 3D Printers i finally print my first army of Stormcast Eternals (That the best faction from AoS for me). Nice content me and my friends from Brazil like to your channel and i gonna search about Mass Brutality!
I live between 3 major cities. Playing a pre 8th 40K game is next to impossible. It's hardcore 10th or nothing. Some of these tictok brains I've played with for decades, can't even recall playing before 8th.
It's getting the point the only time it will be worth playing an edition is once a company has moved on to the next one and you know it will be worth learning the rules as they won't change in 3 months. It's the same with strategy videogames, it's only once the game is actually finished (oddly the young people of today use the word "abandoned" when they mean finished) it's worth working out how to play as you aren't wasting time learning something that's just going to get changed anyway. If you stop playing Stelaris for a few months and install it again you are playing a totally new game.
People just expect everything to be a live service game with never ending content drip which is honestly a terrible thing to want. I long for the days when games were one and done without the need to be nickeled and dimed for another thousand purchases before a game is finally finished...
There is some good in what you say, but there are a few objections to your statements. If Jeff and Jock like different editions, they can also decide to switch them; at my club we play ToW and Warhammer Armies Project,, sometimes with the same players. I've played a host of editions, homemade editions and non-GW-gemes with my elves. What I find surprising, especially after the semi-permanent demise of Warhammer 8th, people just stopped playing. There were at least 3 fanbased editions keeping up (9tj age, WAP and Renaissance), that still exist. One guy even burned his army. Please guys, play the edition you want, but don't make you fun so dependent on a commercial party. From the moment you buy the stuff, it;s your game!
Played oldhammer last year. There's a large community in my area, relatively speaking, but most people only play a few times a year, if that. The main problem with new editions for us is that, as you said, the meta constantly changes, and so you are pretty much forced to have multiple armies to stay competitive enough for the game to be fun. I also do not like the new lore.
The mic is the result of much testing with different mics and my phone which I record with. It's basically the best I can do. I don't have a headphone jack on my phone, and they make headphone jack adapters via the USB charger port, but that doesn't work on my phone either. So the only thing I can use is Bluetooth headsets. I bought like four different microphones and this was the one that sounded the best. If you can believe that
For me I’d rather deal with the complexities and depth of older editions than play the outstandingly stupefied modern version of most GW games. Old worlds been the one game GW has made over the last 20 years I have found fairly enjoyable. Every time I try to step back into 40k and see what the games like I am sad to see it more stripped and dumbed down than ever… and people seem to be happy about it which I find even sadder.
Thanks man! I know, I know. There's actually a story behind that. When I made the dice symbol for my convention about a decade ago I accidentally made the pips on the wrong sides. So when I made this channel I decided to do it intentionally.
@LetsTalkTabletop tbh I kinda figured this was the case... Why my channels name is spelled wrong twice. Long nerdy stories. But love the channel I admire to grow to your standing making even my own games.
@@LetsTalkTabletop it was my second RuneScape account back when that first came out lol couldn't use all the letter because of the letter limitations. Stuck with it ever since
Must say i never was a big fan of 40k or fantasy rules. But have always enjoyed the minis and lore, so now a day its mostly rampant rules for me. Xenos and Dragon. But thumbs up for all who play oldhammer, keep the fun of the good old days alive! Will have to look into mass brutality.
I think this is not so much an issue of Oldhammer, as much as the proprietary mainstream issue. Let's say you want to play 3rd, and Jeff wants 5th. You could play both - at two different times. Nothing is stopping you from playing just one specific game. Personally, I don't play Warhammer - neither new, nor old, nor any other kind. I hate Warhammer. But I know other people do like it, and it would make sense for them to find a compromise. And to, for instance, organize events with specific plans announced in advance ("3rd edition friendly tournament", "2nd edition style painting competition", etc.). With smaller model counts, having enough models to play several editions might not be as big of an issue as it may seem.
Elephant in the room: Oldhammer Fans are just too weird to hang sometimes. People who know, know what I'm referring to here. Some are great, but those that clung onto their childhood toys so emotionally and insist that their toys are better than current toys... do you really want to spend hours hanging out with the dude that still bases his 50 year old personality off of the toys he had when he was ten? Not sure how to phrase it. Like, Oldhammer is basically comprised only of the dudes that complained George Lucas ruined Star Wars with the prequels. The same guys who complained that Michael Bay ruined their childhood. So on and so fourth. Like I said, some are awesome; real mensches of the community, but some... well there's a reason why a corporation decided to not cater to them and it resulted in said corporation making more money than they've ever made ever as a result. Basically, if you're in tabletop, you know of the babymen, and unfortunately, they tend to collect in the nostalgia or old school based sectors.
Finding players for old school gw games has always been tricky,. I've found if you make the effort some people will give it a go. I really can't get behind modern gw, the poorly written rules, the scale of the games are getting bigger and bigger, the constant book churn, and the 3 year life cycles. I'm over it, simple as that. The old rule sets aren't perfect, but they are fun. I tried the old world as I'm a big whfb fan, but it wasn't for me, to me it felt like they'd made an already complicated game even more complicated. If i want to play a supported miniatures game, I look at other companies, I'd rather support them and build a local community for it.
Then you have Battletech (laggy but still great) and FoW (Just great) Not to forget Mutant Chronicles Warzone 1st ed. Probably the best scifi skrimish .
It's called home rules! No restrictions to rules, figures (cheaper, available)! A lot of what this guy is talking about is 40k! Old hammer is FANTASY battles! As far as meeting new people, you can get new people into Oldhammer so much easier! This guy got way off subject!
I do not think anyone could justify showing hate to anyone for their pro's and con's list about old hammer. I just do not agree that there are any con's in playing old hammer. Page 58 in rogue trader makes first edition an agnostic game, all so you create your own vehicles. For later editions, you will just have a bit more home brewing to do, that's all. Getting other people to join your old hammer group is harder because you Will be going rouge and GW hates heretics. They Will see anyone that promotes old hammer as a threat to their profit margin and Will be inclined to treat them in the same Way as competing miniature companies. Their only interest is in players that spend lots of money on the newest, most overpriced bit of plastic now. Just go rogue.
I loved 3rd ed 40k more than any other 40k rule set, but are you ever going to get a pick up game? Nah dead game. 10th edition is terrible, so 40k is dead to me. Fantasy is better anyway, and ToW is great and alive so at least there is one game worth playing.
I could like or whatever, or subscribe or whatever, but this is a pretty lame take and a crappy channel or whatever. So this is a farewell. Or whatever.
I feel like all "criticism" of Games Workshop can be summarized as: "They design new products, then they manufacture them, and then sell them to make a profit". Mindboggling. Also, I found that I really like trying out "miniature agnostic" rulesets. But it's amusing how in 99% of cases "miniature agnostics" is just code word for "alternative rules for your GW miniatures".
After it was errated, yeah it was playable. Infantry was finally playable. But without erratas, the elven armies in their 100 floor high towers, ogres in an unkillable block with way too many heroes, 100 bloodletters, way too cheap Khorne Marauders, Tzeentch Chosen with their 3+/3++ save, spells that did very little or removed whole units out of the table... I think ToW is a much better game.
The reasons why people might be interested in "Oldhammer" can be so different...
* Nostalgia and relive childhood
* Casual > Tournament
* Army sizes
* The old rules
* The old minis
* Goblin green bases and brightly painted minis
and so on :)
The OldHammer I remember was about fun & creativity. We built terrain on our own, painted minis and wasn't influenced by YT. A game was about just having fun or to see how a scenario would end up if we mixed this terrain with those minis and maybe some victory conditions. Minis were cute, bright, colorful and had goblin green bases. Rules were a bit wonky and unbalanced but we made our own rules to compensate. You want to bring those OP Terminators, then I get to bring some extra firepower... And let us not forget the lore that was full of unexplained mysteries and strange, dark events :)
It feels like NewHammer is only about winning tournament with rules that are still unbalanced and consumption in the form of purchasing the latest meta list that is based on GW stock.
I am currently thinking on building a Dark Elf army next but need to paint a bit more from my current backlog. Why? Because it is that one army I wanted as a kid but could not afford collecting. I will use the OPR rules instead of anything from GW for a faster and more modern game but is thinking on writing my own rule system (have past professional game design experience) because there are so many things I want to try and improve (even have some interesting ideas already).
We are lucky to be here, there are so many fun possibilities today :)
5:57 No primaris...good they don't make sense in Warhammer anyway.
I have given up on modern 40k.
I play 3rd edition 40k and 6th WFB.
AoS is still playable however in its modern version.
IMO the biggest hurdle to oldhammer is people think newer editions are somehow better more complete games. (They are not. Sometimes they are MORE broken.)
Someting i learned in the boardgame community. An old game you havent played before is just a NEW game.
If you want to get someone to play an oldhammer, just ask. I have never had a shortage of players. (Also how many regular players do you need? Ive been in a club with 2-6 people for 20 years)
The problem with new units isnt as bad as you think. Harlequins, knights, custodes etc. ALL have fan codexes out there on the internet for the popular oldhammer editions. (Often with better balance than GW because of open source playtesting and no $ for points influence).
Good points!
Came here to basically say this. There’s also just plain proxy for updated models. Prefer the look of primaris? Just use them and convert into tactical squads or whatever.
i actually got into playing the tabletop 40k through finding that 5th edition's rules were way more straight forward to learn and more fun to play, tho some friends who play 10th ed say the main thing stopping them from playing 5e is their army isn't playable, where do you find these fan codexes?
Certainly true, Some old editions suck (1st ed. Bloodbowl is unplayable), many have flaws. The fanmade editions of Fantasy ere quite good though! Very well playtested and playable, each with its specialty. Armies Project is deep and complete, Renaissance is earlier edition and well made, 9th age is tournament-based, On the other hand, GW is notoriously bad in writing rules and balance, and each edition that starts anew.
Weeelll... there are really two types of new edition...
1. the kind that tries to fix problems with the old game but is essentially the same game most, (but not all) new editions of board games are of this type.
2. those new editions that are just different to sell more product. Most, (not all) rpgs and miniatures games fall into this camp.
While the first type are usually improvements on their predecessors, the second type are... just a new set of problems.
If you find someone who likes 5th, and you like 3rd, you compromise like adults. That's part of oldhammer. You can't just find a like-minded individual, fold your arms, and give up because of a slight edition difference.
the only problem with WFB is the Hero Hammer vs Army philosophy of play. iirc 3-5 was HH and 6-8 was more army based.
This.
I’ve had this issue with getting my son into Warhammer. I know and love 2nd Edition 40k and 5th edition WFB. I love the creativity, the storytelling, the smaller scale.
I hate the newer ‘tournament first’ - someone must win’ - look at my titan scale creep mentality of these newer editions. 9th and 10th were impenetrable to me with all the faction specific stratagems….
The boy is trying out 2nd edition.
Oldhammer forever.
dear gods! the scale creep in physical models, points required, and rules bloat is just insane! though... tbf... 2nd Ed. was not known for being "rules lite" by any stretch. modern 40k has long since lost the creativity and drama of past editions. though both 40k and WFB had some serious balance issues in the past, many of those were very commonly house-ruled to such an extent, those rules are readily available for anyone looking to bring more balance to older editions.
Oldhammer is not about the rules, it‘s about the miniatures.
It is about the nostalgia of collecting the army you wanted as a kid.
I now have a 4th edition Dwarf army and I love it.
I managed to find the 1997 Warhammer Lizard men book the other day! I love the older books and the creativity and thought that was in them
I know! I was just laying in bed reading my third edition dark eldar book for nostalgia even though I started in 5th edition. I love those old books. They had a ton of character.
@LetsTalkTabletop yeah I got into it all back in 1999, so just at the tail end of the era of creativity, those 90s and early 2000s books are just insane for the lore and hobby content
Rules or genestealer cults are in White Dwarf and compatible with 3rd-5th
Also the create your own vehicle rules allow for knights. I guess my point is the game was much more of a sandbox. If you are passionate enough you can find people to play with!
Some of what you say makes sense, and some of it is a bit weird. You seem to not make any distinction between models of an era and rules of an era. It's totally possible to use Primnaris models as Space Marines, and it's totally possible to use the "new" Harlequin models with the Rogue Trader rules.
right? plus, while the older Harlie models may have been OOP, they were still around for a long time and, until recently, you could get them at reasonable prices. there's no reason not to use new models in older editions. it's not that hard to write up the stats, rules and pts to play models that came after any given edition. and you can still appreciate someone who shows up with an old school army.
*cuddles up with my 3e rulebooks* soon my precious, soon they will remember your beauty
Older rules arent for comfort. Noone plays Chess cause its comfortable. Older rules are there cause you KNOW that they will be good. That they will be fun.
Familiarity is comfortable though.
But the older rules of Warhammer weren't great either.
The problem isn't comfort or familiarity. It's what type of fun people want. Picture a roller coaster at an amusement park. It's incredibly exciting and fun.
Rule 1: Keep arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times to avoid dismemberment and/or death. It would be fun if you could disobey this rule without consequence of being thrown out, but not if your arms get ripped off. It stays.
Rule 2: Wait your turn. Have to stand in line for hours to get on the ride. It would be great if you didn't have to...but to be fair everyone does. Rule stays.
Everyone wants the roller coaster but you're never getting that in an RPG. Literally. House ruling out portions of the game may make it easier to play, but you've removed some of the challenge.
You're taking on a company of enemies several hexes away? Hope you gather supplies for the journey there and back... Oh, you aren't bothering with those rules. Ok, well, the weather is... oh, you aren't using environmental rules either. Well, it takes... oh, no transit time either. You're just there. And there's no need to scout around for the enemy because they're all just at the destination like they're waiting for you but are completely unaware of you as well. And there's less than 10 of them if you include the boss so you're barely outnumbered and there is no need to come up with strategies or advanced tactics...
Fun game.
@greektlake I love 5th and 6th edition WFB... it works fine and is fun, imop.. you have your own. Good for you.
They were great campared to what they put out today, sort like movies of the same time; gladiator, LotR, even StarWars 😅
I'm pretty sure they had Harlequins in 5th because they were in the 4th edition codex 😂
They did not
@@joriankell1983they did. Page 48 of 4e codex.
I have built a community at my local club who play 2nd edition. From 2 of us who began playing games there we now have a dozen players locally who are interested and playing. This has happened because others have seen us play and talking to others about why we enjoy playing 2nd ed. Sometimes you have to build a community, which is work but well worth it. Also there is nothing stopping you from using new models in old games. That said the joy of this hobby is it is a broad church and you can dive into whatever peeks your interest.
i love 2nd. i build my local community to play mordheim. we have a blast.
I like this video. The part of my brain that is hard to turn off is telling me to say, there's the 2nd edition genestealer cult army list that you can convert to newer editions with a little work, and I just want to say it in a friendly way, people who love the hobby can do it, but I also want to say I understand your point that there wasn't an official genestealer cult army in 3rd edition or other editions until they were re-introduced, I get that point, but they did exist in 2nd. But yeah, not all factions had army lists in all editions, a very fair point. but yeah harlequins were another 2nd edition thing that existed that could be put into other editions.
Now you got any advantage of playing this big commercial product neutralized, and you might as well play your house rules with random minis, but there's probably reasons why many people are not doing that already
the solution is:
Play the game and have fun! Find a few like minded folks and come up with your own narrative if you want. This goes for all board games and miniature war games. Stop over analyzing every sentence in a rule book and stressing about the "meta"....nuff said
I think the issues you mention are a bit of phallacies. I mean a little.
The issues you mention can be turned around I think.
The old editions dont have some models the new editions introduced. But look - New editions also deleted some of those old units and dont support them anymore (IG Conscripts)
Thats actually why Im more an OPR supporter then the Oldhammer one. If I dont have a unit in OPR, I can just create a ruleset quickly in an open calculator. If there is a custom race that I want to make - I can and no corporate shill can tell me otherwise.
The "gamers playing only current edition" is a bit more complex. Of course you are right that its important to play with someone and its really hard to bring change into a group, rather then just join this group. But it is possible. If nobody brought change, then we would still be living in caves.
I think its important to try to accomodate for everyone. Maybe play current edition one time, play another one later, so at the end of the day you can both enjoy time spent together.
But the real issue of it I think is completely elsewhere.
People are afraid to be different. They will pick the "default" choice most of the time. And in this hobby they will stick it to the "safety" of current edition, current errata etc. Thats why so many people worry about models being "Tournament legal" even though they never had nor will take part in a 40k tournament.
I was the same for some time.
But after you open your eyes for the possibility of different rulesets, you realize that well
1st: you can learn and play any system. One massive rulebook is as hard as the other.
2nd: You might actually find rulesets you enjoy more then the default choice.
3rd: You might actually be more creative then you realize, because you force yourself to operate within a limiting framework of current ruleset.
When that barrier drops, its much easier to try and play new and other things. You ACTUALLY become a Wargamer, not just a 40k player.
I can't argue with anything you said! It just depends on your point of view. You said you have coped with one page rules, and I could definitely see doing that. I have barely played any Warhammer in the last couple months because of my enthusiasm for Mass Brutality.
@LetsTalkTabletop Of course. My point was that the quality of a ruleset in the long run is very much dependent on the opennes of the unit designer system. Because you're right. Well If I switch games, what the heck will I do noe with all those minis I put so much time into?! OPR is a great example for that, just get some random models and throw dice. I personally love and mostly stick to Five Parsecs family. It gives me a perfect level of complexity while focusing mostly on the story and emergent natrative which is what I enjoy a lot (And yeah, not a lot of time to play with others ATM, but I can play one skirmish of 5PH over 4 days with 10 minute sessions ;) )
When it comes to players I just wanted to underline that the difficulty is not in "getting them to play something else" but in making them realize that they actually "CAN play something else" and still keep to the same fantasy.
I think one and only blocker might be for the strictly competetive players. If they want to go with official tournaments, they will treat most of their games as practice. But I think competetive players are a bit of a different breed then the rest (not better or worse, just different).
Cheers!
open calculator? like a universal points system?
@@HBon111 Yeah basically. Each and every unit specific rule (for any faction), each and every statistic, weapon characteristic etc. have a certain point value and you can quickly design your custom units with a handy online calculator.
So you can for example create a chem-corps unit by creating a simmilar unit of Human faction veterans and give them guns with toxin rules from a "tyranid" faction and have points calculated for that.
just real quick.... "fallacies", a "phallus" or "phalluses" is something different. not trying to be a dick. 😐😉
4th edition is peak 40k in both mechanics and vibes; Ive been trying to get my group into it after we all stopped playing 10th
You have covered the combinations and permutations very well. And I can see your argument about new players perhaps. However, there are many many folk who play monopoly or chess or Avalon Hill games that haven't changed in decades/centuries. And let's face it none of us play the same game exclusively week to week year to year. For instance I play BattleTech and Full Thrust which haven't changed since the 1990's. The final question is do you want to be in a continual tail chase throwing money at GW for tournament play or do you want to play a stable rules set with the moderate disadvantage of probably having to be miniatures agnostic? New players still play old games, and with the entry and even the sustainment cost of 40K being ludicrously high it is probably a better way to start and keep going. Not that there is anything wrong with expensive tournament play, it is just not for everyone. Now on the plus side. Thanks for the Shore Hammer poster in the back! Did not know that existed. I will have to keep an eye out for it next year.
I think you're completely right and what you're saying, but the biggest sticking point for me is that my local gaming club is not interested in older editions so my options personally are to either play by myself or don't play at all if I want to old hammer. I was just reminiscently looking at my third edition dark eldar codex the other night, even though I started in 5th edition. The older edition certainly have more charm than the current.
And yes! 2025 is our 10th year for shorehammer! It is specifically and exclusively a casual convention and it's the first weekend of December each year. We'd love to have you!
@@LetsTalkTabletop Community is critical. Finding a place to play is always a cooperative thing. I try your rules you try mine. :-)
My first inclination when I began re-collecting my old armies was that I would play an older edition with them. But then I realized, "OR, I could just paint and display them."
Another problem you didn't mention. Getting hold of certain things. Rule books are available used, but are slowly dwindling in supply, and certain codexs run the risk of being scalped as they become "rare collectors items". Same with certain models, but there's always proxys, third party, or 3D print.
Just ask a good prospect to try oldhammer, if you think its more fun, it'll spread. At my club we *🎉* the new editions because we think they are boring and bad. Even new players catch the rift they enjoy 4th, we even try 10th with them an let them rip at why the older versions are better. Would be horrible if you only could eat McDonalds because "thats what 'all the others' prefere" 😅 Enjoy your games 🍻
I came back to the hobby recently (stopped in 5th). My biggest hurdle is overcoming the bad habits I have from back then. My friends never wanted objectives, so we just did army wipes. This doesn't translate well into 10th and almost coast me a W in a tournie over the weekend. Purge was the mission, so I went full send with World Eaters and was in his deployment on Turn 1. I never left. This came to bite me in the ass as my Avocado failed a battleshock or he'd have gone back to my home obj. He passed the next round, but my home objective had some raptors on it, and he had 1 wound left, so I moved him up to support instead of falling back to take/hold. I ended up winning 64 to 56, but it should have never been that close. I'm meeting up with a friend this weekend to go over 10th with him, and I'm hoping that spending time with him, I'll break these habits.
Funnily enough I played a 2000 point game of 5th ed 40k yesterday with a friend. World eaters Vs Imperial Guard. It was an absolute slaughter! After 5 turns all that remained were 1 Leman Russ Punisher and 3 land raiders.
40 Khorne Berserkers, Kharn 84 Guardsmen, and Kell and Creed lay dead on the battlefield! XD
A little while ago I wrote up some concept rules creating turning other Chaos units, such as Bikers and terminators, into Cult units for Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch armies. Have yet to play test them.
My original 1978 Advanced D&D books still work. I have dozens of original modules. They began the "updating game" back in the late 1980s. I've played games off and on since then. Some were new, so they had nothing to unlearn. Others had played and were familiar already. Bottom line, if it worked in 1982, it'll still work now.
This is beat for beat the warcraft retail VS classic VS private server discourse.
Agreed on all points.
That hadn't occurred to me but I'm sure it is the same
This also applies to houserules and homebrew.
I steered my friends away from 10th edition 40k before they got a chance to get into it and showed them 9th edition. Basically all they need to do is paint the models they like, read the rules, and make a proper force, all without the struggle of having to keep up with GW's insane releases. Also, since most of the units in 9th are still in production, they're pretty easy to acquire. But if not, they could buy used from ebay or FB marketplace. As for codices, its very common to find 9th edition books floating around the internet and sometimes in a flgs. Plus I have a bookshelf full of them, so everyone could look through them.
one big problem for the Oldhammer and Middlehammer community is that a lot of the rulebooks are scarce/expensive now, for example, any edition of fantasy before 6e increases sharply in price (though forge world campaign books have always been pricey and a pain to find), I was very fortunate to have been able to buy a mint copy of fantasy 2e with blood bath at orc's drift for only £25 pounds but that was because it was from the clearout of the seller's passed on friend and wanted it to go to a good home that would use it. That's not a common occurrence and others would have to pay upwards of 75-200 pounds for even a damaged book, some games like Rogue Trader don't have it to such a degree as it was reprinted recently and along with 3e fantasy it has some of its books available at Warhammer world which isn't terribly accessible for everyone but does increase their presence in the second-hand market, what the community really needs is to do what the OSR in the RPG sphere did and create some retro-clones of these systems to go with all the nice oldhammer proxy minis but to my knowledge only rogue trader has this, though there might be one for 2e fantasy but I'm not certain as it's in Turkish.
I'm primarily an oldhammer collector/gamer. I love the old models, prefer painting them to the hyper detailed new stuff, and I freely admit that nostalgia is a big part of it, too.
I've sometimes looked at starting modern 40k or AoS, but the constant churn of new editions, new releases etc, always put me off. Even Kill Team and the like is on a season model, and I just couldn't keep up with that.
I asked my group if we could play some old editions, they readily agreed. Now we play 2nd and 3rd ed 40k, and before the release of The Old World , we would play WFB 5th, 6th, or 7th.
But yeah, there's no right or wrong with this. Do what makes you happy. A lot of the miniatures released these days are absolutely beautiful, and if you enjoy modern 40k or AoS, or anything else, thats awesome. Actually, I've recently started playing Spearhead with one of my friends and really enjoying it!
I think this should not be such a big issue as you can use the same minis to play 3d edition, 6th edition, 9th Age, Old World, One Page Rules etc. It's just an issue of finding time, not people because of that. I think projects like 9th Age are a nice compromise- as they are updated, so there is some change and refreshment only at a normal pace, and they are built upon ideas form the past ruleset that should be OK for fans of the older Warhammer editions. I mean this is speculation on my part as I don't play WH :P
I agree with you in that it is easier to find games of the latest edition. However I disagree with your other examples. If you and a buddy choose different editions, like 3rd and 6th as you suggested, justly swap back and forth! It's not to hard and the rules don't change that much. There is also a constant stream of people leaving the latest edition for older editions.
All that being said, I like your channel and your point of views!
i have an undead army that can be a vampire coutns army, i use old base sizes and a base size adapter, it can play all the old editions of warhammer, and i have the newest stuff for them to use the in the old world if needs be, i can click play into them like with lego. my dwarf army is on bigger bases but they can alsoi be used in the old warhammer editions
I play Oldhammer because I like rank and flank traditional style tabletop war gaming. That's why I turned my nose up at Age of Sigmar and would sooner bite down on the muzzle of a gun than ever play it. If I want to play a squad orientated 'Round base' tabletop game I will play 40k.
Hey! I just found your channel and I love the real down to earth videos you make. It's really refreshing to step away from streams of guys in webcams talking about stats or actual powerpoint presentations on hardcore optimization and just catch a guy in his game room somewhere talking about cool ways to have a ton of fun. I skew younger in the wargaming community, I started about 4 years ago in my early 20's, and I feel like a lot of the guys I play with my age just don't...have that mentality about wargames. They treat warhammer like its a video game if you catch my meaning which I guess I don't blame them for because that's the variety of nerd tradition we've all come up from; but it hurts our games and ignited a god damn miniature arms race among my buddies as they attempted to chase the thrill of, I guess, spending money blowing up each other's not even painted plastic dudes with other unpainted plastic dudes with stupid rules shenanigans they found online while getting kinda pissed. Not what the hobby was ever made for obviously. I'm hoping in our next surge of warhammer I can pull them back into 3rd edition AoS so we can stop worrying about meta chasing in our casual gaming group, but I wish there was kinda an older wiser grognard to make these suggestions among us so I stopped sounding like a crazy old man all the time.
Thanks for the kind words and I think you're exactly right, it's a ton of fun to just chill and play games. I do think a lot of people come from video games where you always minimize and maximize your stats for optimal efficiency, and winning is the only thing you care about. So then it translates on the table. I think you have the right outlook for it, and hopefully you can slowly convert them to a more narrative and casual style.
Honestly, I'm just gonna be playing Mass Brutality from now on. For me it does what any of Warhammer's editions have failed to do. Can't beat the customization.
😎😎😎
Good discussions.
I'd consider upgrading your mic situation. The audio a little 2005.
It's like an old TV show. Sort of like a mosquito set in resin.
I keep getting comments about the audio quality. To be honest with you I am probably tone deaf or something of that nature, because it sounds fine to me. I bought about five different microphones to use with my phone and this is the only one that would work via bluetooth. The other ones needed headphone jacks which my phone does not have and when I used an adapter for the USB to make it a headphone jack I got terrible buzzing in the background. So if you have a suggestion I'd be happy to hear it but it basically has to be Bluetooth. And I think the Bluetooth is probably the issue.
Brainwashing my children is my answer! There no gaming clubs anymore in my area annd we are in the middle of no where in Australia. Just 3 to 4 years more to go! But I miss the FW imperial armour books.
So much depends on the local group and gaming locations. In my area everyone I played 40k with quit when 9th ed. dropped. We tried playing a jury-rigged 5th ed., but as you point out that came with its own issues.
OPR ended up gaining a good following and then took off when 10th ed. landed. I do like the rise of model agnostic gaming, since I like using the models I bought and painted. I'd just prefer not to re-learn a ruleset every year.
Glad I found your video (praise the algorithm), its good to see alternatives to the GW monolith.
For the first half of the video I thought you were talking about older editions of Old World Warhammer Fantasy, not Warhammer in general. I was also confused when talk about Harlequins in 5th edition. I knew someone who played Harlequins in 5th edition... but then I though maybe you were talking about Harlequins as they own army... Otherwise I very much agree with everything you said. I've been out of the hobby since 5th edition 40k (I did play a couple in 7 or 8th) and 8th edition Fantasy. I keep thinking about coming back, but I just haven't yet.
I would be happy to buy Oldhammer minis just to paint them and have them. Playing is very secondary
So your only problem according to this video is the problem of finding someone to play against? That is not a huge setback. And rules for most new models someone has usually already made somewhere online.
It's not just Oldhammer, it's almost any Tabletop Wargame besides WH40k.
Locally there is a strong scene for Middle Earth Strategy Game, also by GW, but after that....player numbers drop drastically.
No reason for me to start a GW System but it's brutal.
2nd ed 40k was my favorite. I normally played with friends and family and I supply all the models so it's not an issue. Sill figuring out TOW but I may go back to 6th ed WHFB for the same reasons. The biggest issue nowadays is everyone chases the meta, whether it's MMOs, tabletop, etc., and the rules overlords at the company need to take that into effect with all the FAQs etc. Of the new rules, I did enjoy playing a few games of Combat Patrol and I haven't tried Spearhead yet but I'm excited to give it a try. Another main gripe is having to buy Codexes every edition. I don't know how anyone gets excited for a new codex, I'd rather spend that money on new models.
the problem i am having with GW is not the models. i love thier models. except the primarus marines. they are great looking models, but how all that was handled and making my 1000 firstborn obsolete is that issue. is they design the game to be broken to sell whatever models they want to push. and then they release quarterly fixes. how about just make balance rules.
I have no interest in 10th 40k. so i switched gears. maybe ill pick up 11th. I have friends that like old hammer as much as i do. its a small group, however i like it that way, no need to talk politics, or diversity crap, its just us getting down and rolling dice.
I got into Wargammer only a few months ago by playing 3rd edition with dome friends that have been doing this for a while. The only problem is that my necrons are not particularly fleshed out and they are not willing to allow a made up a data sheet for some of the newer units.
Hello! Completely & horribly off-topic: is that amazing display case behind your back custom made? I am looking for something like that, so far no luck.
Thanks! They are Funko Pop display cases from amazon. There are two sizes, one that is 40 something dollars and one that is around $80. The ones behind me are the $80 versions because they are a better price per square inch of space.
@@LetsTalkTabletop Thank you!!!
Hi Scott, nice video as always! I'm from Brazil and here we don't have support or even the miniatures to buy but because of the Warhammer Fantasy RPG we known the Warhammer franchise. Because of many games me and friends became to turn fans of 40k and search on the internet i start to like very much of Age of Sigmar and thankfully the 3D Printers i finally print my first army of Stormcast Eternals (That the best faction from AoS for me). Nice content me and my friends from Brazil like to your channel and i gonna search about Mass Brutality!
Thank you for saying that!
I live between 3 major cities. Playing a pre 8th 40K game is next to impossible. It's hardcore 10th or nothing. Some of these tictok brains I've played with for decades, can't even recall playing before 8th.
Oh wow
Genestealer cults had their (semi) official codex in 3rd ed (Citadel Journal) - and official in second. They are old concept.
It's getting the point the only time it will be worth playing an edition is once a company has moved on to the next one and you know it will be worth learning the rules as they won't change in 3 months.
It's the same with strategy videogames, it's only once the game is actually finished (oddly the young people of today use the word "abandoned" when they mean finished) it's worth working out how to play as you aren't wasting time learning something that's just going to get changed anyway. If you stop playing Stelaris for a few months and install it again you are playing a totally new game.
People just expect everything to be a live service game with never ending content drip which is honestly a terrible thing to want. I long for the days when games were one and done without the need to be nickeled and dimed for another thousand purchases before a game is finally finished...
@@DarkCatfish my view too, spot on.
You are not old enough. Believe me, you will stop to enjoy meeting people ;-)
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2nd Ed. 40K, absolute peak👌
I’ve really been enjoying Mass Brutality! I’ve done big historical battles, and soon I’m hopefully going to fight some kings of war against my 40k.
Thanks for saying that! I love to hear it!
There is some good in what you say, but there are a few objections to your statements. If Jeff and Jock like different editions, they can also decide to switch them; at my club we play ToW and Warhammer Armies Project,, sometimes with the same players. I've played a host of editions, homemade editions and non-GW-gemes with my elves. What I find surprising, especially after the semi-permanent demise of Warhammer 8th, people just stopped playing. There were at least 3 fanbased editions keeping up (9tj age, WAP and Renaissance), that still exist. One guy even burned his army. Please guys, play the edition you want, but don't make you fun so dependent on a commercial party. From the moment you buy the stuff, it;s your game!
I dont see Oldworld staying in stasis IF it is successfull - GW will try to milk it as much as they can.
Not old world "Oldhammer". It's what we call past editions of GW games.
Played oldhammer last year. There's a large community in my area, relatively speaking, but most people only play a few times a year, if that. The main problem with new editions for us is that, as you said, the meta constantly changes, and so you are pretty much forced to have multiple armies to stay competitive enough for the game to be fun.
I also do not like the new lore.
Is the mic a stylistic choice?, if so
How much to get better audio quality on the vids
The mic is the result of much testing with different mics and my phone which I record with. It's basically the best I can do. I don't have a headphone jack on my phone, and they make headphone jack adapters via the USB charger port, but that doesn't work on my phone either. So the only thing I can use is Bluetooth headsets. I bought like four different microphones and this was the one that sounded the best. If you can believe that
For me I’d rather deal with the complexities and depth of older editions than play the outstandingly stupefied modern version of most GW games. Old worlds been the one game GW has made over the last 20 years I have found fairly enjoyable. Every time I try to step back into 40k and see what the games like I am sad to see it more stripped and dumbed down than ever… and people seem to be happy about it which I find even sadder.
a lota people dodo...
Alternative 40k - look it up
It's like Warhammer Armies Project or 9th age
what if my reason is i despise GW as another example of a corporation that doesnt deserve the IPs they owns?
Love the channel man! But the dice symbol bothers me.... Because a 5 and 2 are opposite (small nit-pick)
Thanks man! I know, I know. There's actually a story behind that. When I made the dice symbol for my convention about a decade ago I accidentally made the pips on the wrong sides. So when I made this channel I decided to do it intentionally.
@LetsTalkTabletop tbh I kinda figured this was the case... Why my channels name is spelled wrong twice. Long nerdy stories. But love the channel I admire to grow to your standing making even my own games.
Thanks for saying that! What's the story behind your channel name?
@@LetsTalkTabletop it was my second RuneScape account back when that first came out lol couldn't use all the letter because of the letter limitations. Stuck with it ever since
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What's harder to find than oldhammer players? mass brutality players 😂
Must say i never was a big fan of 40k or fantasy rules. But have always enjoyed the minis and lore, so now a day its mostly rampant rules for me. Xenos and Dragon. But thumbs up for all who play oldhammer, keep the fun of the good old days alive!
Will have to look into mass brutality.
I think this is not so much an issue of Oldhammer, as much as the proprietary mainstream issue.
Let's say you want to play 3rd, and Jeff wants 5th. You could play both - at two different times. Nothing is stopping you from playing just one specific game.
Personally, I don't play Warhammer - neither new, nor old, nor any other kind. I hate Warhammer.
But I know other people do like it, and it would make sense for them to find a compromise. And to, for instance, organize events with specific plans announced in advance ("3rd edition friendly tournament", "2nd edition style painting competition", etc.).
With smaller model counts, having enough models to play several editions might not be as big of an issue as it may seem.
Elephant in the room: Oldhammer Fans are just too weird to hang sometimes. People who know, know what I'm referring to here. Some are great, but those that clung onto their childhood toys so emotionally and insist that their toys are better than current toys... do you really want to spend hours hanging out with the dude that still bases his 50 year old personality off of the toys he had when he was ten?
Not sure how to phrase it. Like, Oldhammer is basically comprised only of the dudes that complained George Lucas ruined Star Wars with the prequels. The same guys who complained that Michael Bay ruined their childhood. So on and so fourth.
Like I said, some are awesome; real mensches of the community, but some... well there's a reason why a corporation decided to not cater to them and it resulted in said corporation making more money than they've ever made ever as a result.
Basically, if you're in tabletop, you know of the babymen, and unfortunately, they tend to collect in the nostalgia or old school based sectors.
Finding players for old school gw games has always been tricky,. I've found if you make the effort some people will give it a go.
I really can't get behind modern gw, the poorly written rules, the scale of the games are getting bigger and bigger, the constant book churn, and the 3 year life cycles. I'm over it, simple as that.
The old rule sets aren't perfect, but they are fun. I tried the old world as I'm a big whfb fan, but it wasn't for me, to me it felt like they'd made an already complicated game even more complicated.
If i want to play a supported miniatures game, I look at other companies, I'd rather support them and build a local community for it.
we dont care about the new crap except The old world
I still have my old 5th edition Warhammer 40K rulebook. I have no clue where my 3rd and 4th book went to. I never played 6th and I hated 7th.
Then you have Battletech (laggy but still great) and FoW (Just great) Not to forget Mutant Chronicles Warzone 1st ed. Probably the best scifi skrimish .
It's called home rules! No restrictions to rules, figures (cheaper, available)! A lot of what this guy is talking about is 40k! Old hammer is FANTASY battles! As far as meeting new people, you can get new people into Oldhammer so much easier! This guy got way off subject!
Most importantly, later editions arent necessarily better rules. Just look at dnd 5e.
Amazing ... did you literally just say "poopstorm"?! 9:24
Yes. Yes I did.
I do not think anyone could justify showing hate to anyone for their pro's and con's list about old hammer. I just do not agree that there are any con's in playing old hammer. Page 58 in rogue trader makes first edition an agnostic game, all so you create your own vehicles. For later editions, you will just have a bit more home brewing to do, that's all. Getting other people to join your old hammer group is harder because you Will be going rouge and GW hates heretics. They Will see anyone that promotes old hammer as a threat to their profit margin and Will be inclined to treat them in the same Way as competing miniature companies. Their only interest is in players that spend lots of money on the newest, most overpriced bit of plastic now. Just go rogue.
This is so true. You nailed it.
Our whole group, 40k and fantasy, locked in when GW went WOKE. 9th edition 40k and back to 8th edition fantasy... not another penny for GW from us :-)
Define woke
@LonelyGamer4 breaking the decades old lore to make modern political pushes. Transgender sisters and female custodies was 2 steps too far.
So sometime during the 1980's?
dude, if you have to rely on click bait titles to get people to watch then maybe think about doing something else with your time.
Don’t understand what the point of really is..
I loved 3rd ed 40k more than any other 40k rule set, but are you ever going to get a pick up game? Nah dead game. 10th edition is terrible, so 40k is dead to me.
Fantasy is better anyway, and ToW is great and alive so at least there is one game worth playing.
I just love the old-world setting.
Honestly is my favourite fantasy setting ever (probably followed by forgotten realms & innistrad)
Glory to Tzeentch
9:40 facts don't care about feefees... You're good dude 👍
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@@LetsTalkTabletop math-rocks really don't care about your feefees... Roll 4 out of 5 dice as 1's.... Inconceivable!!!
I could like or whatever, or subscribe or whatever, but this is a pretty lame take and a crappy channel or whatever.
So this is a farewell. Or whatever.
Oldhammer is besthammer. And Heroquest is the best game ever made, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.
I feel like all "criticism" of Games Workshop can be summarized as: "They design new products, then they manufacture them, and then sell them to make a profit".
Mindboggling.
Also, I found that I really like trying out "miniature agnostic" rulesets. But it's amusing how in 99% of cases "miniature agnostics" is just code word for "alternative rules for your GW miniatures".
I mean GW is the 800lbs gorilla so everything, criticism included is going to revolve around it.
8th edition was as close to a perfect game as they ever got
Weird way to spell 3rd :p
The Coup-de-grace edition that killed of any soul in the game that is 😂
After it was errated, yeah it was playable. Infantry was finally playable. But without erratas, the elven armies in their 100 floor high towers, ogres in an unkillable block with way too many heroes, 100 bloodletters, way too cheap Khorne Marauders, Tzeentch Chosen with their 3+/3++ save, spells that did very little or removed whole units out of the table... I think ToW is a much better game.