Well, these replacement writers didn't know the show and Richard Schiff hated how his character was developed under the new leadership. He totally thought they missed the core of who Toby really was.
@@TurinTurambar200Ah but he had his self-doubts too. Remember from In the Shadow of Two Gunmen flashbacks, Abby telling Josh, after Bartlet knew he was going to win the nomination… “He’s not ready yet, Josh…he’s terrified”. But of course then when Josh asked if he would be ready, Abby did respond “You get your ass”.
Toby should know that better than anyone though, after all he was the only original member of the team and he was out there in Nashua at town-halls with nobody coming and all of that. Leo did to Bartlet what Lyman did to Santos, really.
@@jon8004 It should be though. A president or anyone in power may not be the person with the most studies or degrees, but someone with wisdom and moral integrity. You can always call experts, and knowledge is never in one person but several, but the bare minimum is to choose a good man as a leader.
@@asilvap I take issue with the notion that a guy who left Washington to do "small important work" at home should be disqualified for the presidency because he wasn't driven by some grandiose, Toby-approved vision of power. It's an idiotic take, and Toby sounds like an idiot when he says it.
@@chucklana161 I’ve always had such respect for him. Writing over 20 books & giving of himself to service unselfishly. I hope his health gets better. May God watch over him. I live for a return of kindness like that in the White House.
As much as I do admire the writing in much of those last couple seasons (S5 was rocky and uneven, but it too had some good moments before they started getting comfortable again), I do wonder sometimes if the latter-season writers actually paid attention to the Sorkin years. It took an entire staff pushing and pulling on Bartlet before he finally decided "Yes, I can be President." There were entire episodes about it!
Seems like this is philosophically the exact opposite of that scene in Gladiator where Marcus Aurelius tells Maximus that it is in part because of his reluctance to be emperor that Marcus wishes him to take his place.
Billy Connelly said that the desire to be a politician should ban you for life from ever becoming one. The best person to be the President of any country should not be drawn to it by the power it affords, but be awed by the power and fearful of the responsibility it bestows on the holder of the office. Any less than that and they are not suitable for the role.
He was a humble small-town boy from Missouri. Who never had a college education, especially not from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or Columbia, like most US presidents have.
And nor was President Bartlet (see the flashbacks in Bartlet for America). That’s why I don’t really buy that Toby would even make this argument. It’s not great writing.
It seems it's you who is forgetting things, not this scene. 1st of all, even Bartlet admits he just joined the race to get his view points shared with the country at large, and was very surprised that he outdid Hoynes from the get go. (He was so not expecting to win, to the point that he wanted to work with low-level, long time campaign managers he was comfortable with rather than actually win, that Leo had to fire at the beginning of season 2.) Same or next episode, Josh was worried he wasn't ready, and Dr. Bartlet said he's scared, and it'll take some time, and in the meantime, Josh and the others should deal with their frustrations with her instead of him. It wasn't until Bartlet was willing to blow off the acceptance speech to go with Josh to his father's that he felt ready. 2nd of all, Bartlet had his long time friend convinced him to run, not some rando from the Hill appearing at his door during a holiday party. And Leo brought in Josh, from Hoynes campaign, who brought in Sam, kept Toby, who brought along CJ at Leo's request. They were recommendations of Leo, so while not completely familiar to Bartlet, he had trust that Leo knew what he was doing. On the other hand, Josh pretty much assembled a team with the bits he could find, to the point where the Democratic leadership wanted him replaced by Leo to smooth things out within the campaign. 3rd of all, Bartlet was the clear choice for Democratic nominee nearly 2 months before the convention, and had much more time to solidify his position, both within and outside the party. Santos only became the nominee after 3 days of the Democratic voting at the convection lead to no winners, leading to so many deals that Bartlet himself told Santos to drop out for the good of the party. Any of the possible choices were going to lose, and it damn near happened. It literally took an ecological disaster for Vinnick to narrowly lose, and even then, if Leo's death was known a couple of hours earlier, Vinnick STILL would have won. If you ran this campaign against Vinnick 10 times, with those 2 factor removed, I'd give good money Vinnick wins 70% of the time. (Bruno is really good at his job.) So, no, Toby wasn't out of line. That didn't mean he thought Vinnick was a better leader, just that he stood a better chance of being so.
@@stefsmurf "It seems it's you who is forgetting things, not this scene." You literally summarized my point with this: "even Bartlet admits he just joined the race to get his view points shared with the country at large, and was very surprised that he outdid Hoynes from the get go. (He was so not expecting to win, to the point that he wanted to work with low-level, long time campaign managers he was comfortable with rather than actually win, that Leo had to fire at the beginning of season" Uh, yes. Leo had to work very hard to get and keep Bartlett in the race -- that's directly opposite Toby's point that leaders have the egos to believe they can lead and rush to the opportunity. FFS, Toby was on the campaign at this point and saw it.
@@MacTh3Kn1fe No, there is a difference. Bartlet knew he could lead. He didn't know he could WIN. That's the difference. (The only thing is he was scared, as any sane person should be, to lead an entire nation the size of USA. He honestly hadn't prepared himself for the possibility, but after giving himself some moments, he knew the movement he was comfortable with it, and never went back.) He'd already been a representative and a governor for multiple terms. You're confusing running for election and governing. Toby is concerned for Santos GOVERNING ability. That's the whole point between Hoynes and Bartlet, too. Hoynes can campaign well, just not govern well. Bartlet was the opposite, and that's where Leo became invaluable to everyone: he could do both.
Toby is both right and wrong. He is right that the guy who believed being in power is his calling will fight harder and use every trick to get there and the midwits who vote for him will believe it. Meanwhile the guy who walks away, who is not called to power, who is a reluctant leader, who feels it is a duty and an obligation, while being better for the republic, will lose. This is in essence the entire problem with politics, we have made it harmful for the right people to run and lucrative for the wrong people to. We destroyed the republic ourselves in the 1790s, 1912, 1985, and 2007
tbf to Toby when he sees the other side nominating a towering figure like Vinick, you can see why he would have massive doubts with Santos. This is about as tough a race you can run against a popular Republican senator who has wide cross party appeal.
The plan was for Vinick to narrowly win until John Spencer's heart attack. It was decided the audience couldn't handle the death of a beloved actor (and Santos' running mate) with a simultaneous Republican victory.
The first "official" behind the scene book, Whats Next by Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack comes out in August. Perhaps this is the sort of thing we'll learn?
This scene felt like classic Tobby, convincted and unyeilding in his beliefs. It harkend back to why he stood by Bartletts side in the campaign. His belief in the power that government of/for/and by the people can have. I will disagree with him however. Because it was Washington, the first and one to set the standard for President, that ALSO had to be dragged by the hair out of the family bed.
If it weren’t for dear John Spencer’s death, Vinick team was set up for the win. Apparently they changed their mind after that..I think Toby has a big point here.
Toby doesn't realize that Bartlett only ran for President himself because Leo talked him into it.
he knew.
but plotline amnesia demands he "didn't"
Bartlett always wanted the job. He just didn't think he could win at first. He didn't tell Leo he had MS because "I wanted to be the president."
Well, these replacement writers didn't know the show and Richard Schiff hated how his character was developed under the new leadership. He totally thought they missed the core of who Toby really was.
@@TurinTurambar200Ah but he had his self-doubts too. Remember from In the Shadow of Two Gunmen flashbacks, Abby telling Josh, after Bartlet knew he was going to win the nomination… “He’s not ready yet, Josh…he’s terrified”. But of course then when Josh asked if he would be ready, Abby did respond “You get your ass”.
Toby should know that better than anyone though, after all he was the only original member of the team and he was out there in Nashua at town-halls with nobody coming and all of that. Leo did to Bartlet what Lyman did to Santos, really.
The man that wants that kind of power, often doesn’t deserve it.
I think in Harry Potter, Dumblendore says something like that "Those who seek power are the less indicate to have it"
It makes for a good line in a story, but people tend to not vote for someone that can't articulate why they deserve the job they're running for.
Toby is romantic and naive. The idea that the president has to be all those things has... well... never been true.
@@jon8004 It should be though. A president or anyone in power may not be the person with the most studies or degrees, but someone with wisdom and moral integrity. You can always call experts, and knowledge is never in one person but several, but the bare minimum is to choose a good man as a leader.
@@asilvap I take issue with the notion that a guy who left Washington to do "small important work" at home should be disqualified for the presidency because he wasn't driven by some grandiose, Toby-approved vision of power. It's an idiotic take, and Toby sounds like an idiot when he says it.
This scene was the first in a long time that felt like classic West Wing. Leave it to Richard Schiff to recapture that energy so effortlessly. 🎉🎉🎉
Vinick wasn’t a narcissistic maniac either though.
President Carter was that kind of man. Too nice a person to be president
I enjoyed working for him. He was the 1st president I voted for. I’m a Republican now, but I’d still vote for him. A truly godly man.
Wow! What a beautiful comment. I always wanted to meet President Carter. He seems like a godly, caring man.
@@mikesouthern7666 I had the privilege of working for him. He and Miss Rosalyn were so very nice. He was the first man I ever voted for
@@chucklana161 I’ve always had such respect for him. Writing over 20 books & giving of himself to service unselfishly. I hope his health gets better. May God watch over him. I live for a return of kindness like that in the White House.
As much as I do admire the writing in much of those last couple seasons (S5 was rocky and uneven, but it too had some good moments before they started getting comfortable again), I do wonder sometimes if the latter-season writers actually paid attention to the Sorkin years. It took an entire staff pushing and pulling on Bartlet before he finally decided "Yes, I can be President." There were entire episodes about it!
Seems like this is philosophically the exact opposite of that scene in Gladiator where Marcus Aurelius tells Maximus that it is in part because of his reluctance to be emperor that Marcus wishes him to take his place.
Toby loves to hate but hates to love Josh.
Billy Connelly said that the desire to be a politician should ban you for life from ever becoming one. The best person to be the President of any country should not be drawn to it by the power it affords, but be awed by the power and fearful of the responsibility it bestows on the holder of the office. Any less than that and they are not suitable for the role.
Everything Toby says was right about Santos… yet he still won.
Vinick should have won.
@@SonicandTheTailsbrothers He was going to originally but John Spencer died and they thought it would be too sad that Leo died and lost the election.
I believe Vinick was supposed to win before John Spencer died halfway through filming and they had to rewrite the ending.
This is a myth. Multiple people have said that it was Santos from the start
Personally I think Sanyos was supposed to have a heart attack and Leo becomes president…but then reality intervened.
@@EAzadAlan Alda confirmed it sorry
@@traviskarnes6825cool lawrence o donnell who was one of the producers said differently
@EAzad Awesome Lawrence's account has disputed by many of the writers so yeah.
IMHO the Santos win caused West Wing to jump the shark 🦈
Toby forgot about Harry Truman who fell into the presidency and was successfully elected in his own right!
He was a humble small-town boy from Missouri. Who never had a college education, especially not from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or Columbia, like most US presidents have.
And Gerald ford who….wait no. Never mind him.
By Toby's reasoning George Washington wasn't presidential.
And also by that reasoning, Donald Trump was. (That line really doesn't hold up does it?)
And nor was President Bartlet (see the flashbacks in Bartlet for America). That’s why I don’t really buy that Toby would even make this argument. It’s not great writing.
Oh FFS. The amnesia in this scene forgetting how hard Leo had to chivvy Bartlett into running.
Leo already knew Bartlett was that man.
Just like Josh knew that Santos was that guy.
It seems it's you who is forgetting things, not this scene.
1st of all, even Bartlet admits he just joined the race to get his view points shared with the country at large, and was very surprised that he outdid Hoynes from the get go. (He was so not expecting to win, to the point that he wanted to work with low-level, long time campaign managers he was comfortable with rather than actually win, that Leo had to fire at the beginning of season 2.) Same or next episode, Josh was worried he wasn't ready, and Dr. Bartlet said he's scared, and it'll take some time, and in the meantime, Josh and the others should deal with their frustrations with her instead of him. It wasn't until Bartlet was willing to blow off the acceptance speech to go with Josh to his father's that he felt ready.
2nd of all, Bartlet had his long time friend convinced him to run, not some rando from the Hill appearing at his door during a holiday party. And Leo brought in Josh, from Hoynes campaign, who brought in Sam, kept Toby, who brought along CJ at Leo's request. They were recommendations of Leo, so while not completely familiar to Bartlet, he had trust that Leo knew what he was doing. On the other hand, Josh pretty much assembled a team with the bits he could find, to the point where the Democratic leadership wanted him replaced by Leo to smooth things out within the campaign.
3rd of all, Bartlet was the clear choice for Democratic nominee nearly 2 months before the convention, and had much more time to solidify his position, both within and outside the party. Santos only became the nominee after 3 days of the Democratic voting at the convection lead to no winners, leading to so many deals that Bartlet himself told Santos to drop out for the good of the party. Any of the possible choices were going to lose, and it damn near happened. It literally took an ecological disaster for Vinnick to narrowly lose, and even then, if Leo's death was known a couple of hours earlier, Vinnick STILL would have won. If you ran this campaign against Vinnick 10 times, with those 2 factor removed, I'd give good money Vinnick wins 70% of the time. (Bruno is really good at his job.)
So, no, Toby wasn't out of line. That didn't mean he thought Vinnick was a better leader, just that he stood a better chance of being so.
@@stefsmurf "It seems it's you who is forgetting things, not this scene."
You literally summarized my point with this: "even Bartlet admits he just joined the race to get his view points shared with the country at large, and was very surprised that he outdid Hoynes from the get go. (He was so not expecting to win, to the point that he wanted to work with low-level, long time campaign managers he was comfortable with rather than actually win, that Leo had to fire at the beginning of season"
Uh, yes. Leo had to work very hard to get and keep Bartlett in the race -- that's directly opposite Toby's point that leaders have the egos to believe they can lead and rush to the opportunity. FFS, Toby was on the campaign at this point and saw it.
@@MacTh3Kn1fe No, there is a difference. Bartlet knew he could lead. He didn't know he could WIN. That's the difference. (The only thing is he was scared, as any sane person should be, to lead an entire nation the size of USA. He honestly hadn't prepared himself for the possibility, but after giving himself some moments, he knew the movement he was comfortable with it, and never went back.) He'd already been a representative and a governor for multiple terms. You're confusing running for election and governing. Toby is concerned for Santos GOVERNING ability. That's the whole point between Hoynes and Bartlet, too. Hoynes can campaign well, just not govern well. Bartlet was the opposite, and that's where Leo became invaluable to everyone: he could do both.
Toby is both right and wrong. He is right that the guy who believed being in power is his calling will fight harder and use every trick to get there and the midwits who vote for him will believe it. Meanwhile the guy who walks away, who is not called to power, who is a reluctant leader, who feels it is a duty and an obligation, while being better for the republic, will lose. This is in essence the entire problem with politics, we have made it harmful for the right people to run and lucrative for the wrong people to. We destroyed the republic ourselves in the 1790s, 1912, 1985, and 2007
tbf to Toby when he sees the other side nominating a towering figure like Vinick, you can see why he would have massive doubts with Santos. This is about as tough a race you can run against a popular Republican senator who has wide cross party appeal.
The plan was for Vinick to narrowly win until John Spencer's heart attack. It was decided the audience couldn't handle the death of a beloved actor (and Santos' running mate) with a simultaneous Republican victory.
that's really interesting
Not true. Plan was for dems to always win
That explains the insane lengths they went to have him lose. They literally wrote a three mile island event to make him lose.
I’ve heard the opposite, Santos was suppose to win from the start.
The first "official" behind the scene book, Whats Next by Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack comes out in August. Perhaps this is the sort of thing we'll learn?
This scene felt like classic Tobby, convincted and unyeilding in his beliefs. It harkend back to why he stood by Bartletts side in the campaign. His belief in the power that government of/for/and by the people can have.
I will disagree with him however. Because it was Washington, the first and one to set the standard for President, that ALSO had to be dragged by the hair out of the family bed.
Ah, but Vinick didn't win, so Toby wasn't right.
If it weren’t for dear John Spencer’s death, Vinick team was set up for the win. Apparently they changed their mind after that..I think Toby has a big point here.
@@ghostemane3209Multiple people have confirmed that this theory is incorrect. Santos’ win was planned.
Bartlett should not have pardoned Toby. He belonged in jail.
God i hate toby