@@Pepe-pq3om The idea that one operates by ethics and codes of conduct, even at the expense of the pragmatic and stealthy response. That weapons of war are used for the greater good of not just your own side, but to redeem even your enemies. That kind of viewpoint...where nobility of purpose is lost, that is where 40k becomes worse and worse. Where that is different...you get places like Ciaphus Cain's influence. Where you act to make things better, in spite of the setting, can in fact enact change. In fact...actual idea just came to mind. The Primarchs as they appear may reveal each of the virtues that the Emperor had, and abandoned for speed and efficiency in the Great Crusade. But when the Emperor led as a leader directly, in the War in the Webway and more...he acted by his virtues. Could that be a slow reveal, as each new Primarch reveal occurs? WON"T KNOW TILL 11th, SOMETIME BY THE END OF 2025!
Agreed. The symbolism of the arms is much preferred over min maxing. Sword for papa smurf as a leader, shield for Lion as a protector. Their changing personalities go with the weapons. A funny bonus to Lion not getting the sword is that he can defeat daemon primarchs. GW won't permakill them, so the sword would be a hidden nerf anyway.
@@DoYouLiekMudkipz_ I always think that giving Gman the sword is giving him the potential to grow out of his only identity. Gulliman is not only a strategist. Because each primarch that has met him described him differently. Lionel said Gulliman's true talent is multi-tasking, not planning, Corax claimed Gulliman has the nature of a warrior as much as any other primarchs and Gulliman sees himself as a student, always curious and always wants to learn from others. He believed he could fix machines just like Perturabo or Vulkan, it just takes too much time since he doesn't have the talent and even if he tries he won't be able to match their best crafting. I think Gulliman was given the sword because it's the symbol of leadership but also to grow his potential as a fighter on the battlefield. Decide the potential of the student even before he starts is bad education. I think it's the same with Lionel. Giving him the shield is to teach him to control his power. He already has destructive power and he doesn't need more. The shield takes away some of that destructive power in exchange for flexibility in tactics, forcing Lionel to think more about his approach before acting.
@@minhducnguyen9276 A leader must be skilled in many things. But Roboutes is no longer one amongst many but the center of the imperium alongside his father. However the forces of chaos cannot reach the Emperor. Meaning he is the great enemy of chaos that must be struck down, hence the emperor giving him the means to strike them down for good.
I don’t like it at all, because they are both who they are based on culture and they both have incredible savagery and honor but they behave outwardly how they want to behave
For real, I think most, if not all primarchs have undiagnosed mental disorders, Lion is one of the primary examples for me, the other one is rogal dorn.
So one of the things that turns me off a lot of 40k lore yourubers is that any form of media analysis is an alien concept to them. It's lovely that you engage with these texts at a deeper level and i would love to see more of this kind of thing in the future.
Reminds me of Hbomberguy's review of Dark Souls 2 where he analyses the opening and contrasts it with the general reception of the time which was something along the lines of of "an old lady tells you to do stuff and then you jump into a whirlpool and that's a bad story hook". Nerd culture in general is very lore obsessed and seems to shun media analysis.
@@respectfulevil9022The A Song of Ice and Fire fandom has this like insanely bad. They create these insane theories and defend them to the death despite the fact it would be so thematically inconsistent with the books.
I think a bunch of that comes down to who is doing it and what theyre looking at. Theres a lot to go through for 40K which leaves people with way different ideas on what something or how someone is that will heavily effect their take on it.
Since Angron never broke his cycle his sons have been forever damned and the lion must save his sons before they do the same or just wipe themselves out
The lion is finally back from his long slumber and now has the milk and cigarettes for his very secretive children who desperately need a father figure in their lives.😺
@@jamesdeek7039 I'm daddies favourite. - Fulgrim OMG dad you are THE BEST THING EVER. I'm gonna make sure everyone knows that my dad is better than anyone else, no matter what you say! - Lorgar Why does Dad make me do the crappy chores while Rogal gets to play with the cool toys. - Perturabo I wish dad would get off my back, I know what I'm doing with this warp stuff. I'm not some stupid kid. Oh well, what he doesn't know won't hurt him. - Magnus I want to kill my dad so damn badly. Why the hell did my dad kill him? So not fair. - Mortarion Why couldn't you have just let me die with my friends, dad? - Angron Dad caught me skinning the neighbours -cat- and he didn't tell anyone. Didn't even get mad, just said "Son, I'm very disappointed." - Konrad Damn, this knife smells funny. Dad kinda sucks and you know, I am SO much better than dad! - Horus Dad, I don't know what you want me to do or who you want me to be. I don't know who I am, what I am, where I am or what side I'm on. And neither does anyone else. Especially not him. But maybe I do know. Maybe I'm right. Am I alive? I know everything and dad was right all along, he just didn't know it. I am Alpharius - Alpharius/Omegon
I thought it was less that than some Techpriest was so horrified that he destroyed their only STC fragment, which got him burned at the stake using a phosphex weapon
I always figured that the ones still active will appear with the rest of the legion that is hold up in the Sonium star system, the entire legions battle group is likely there. I hate how they have the 1st’s lore all over the board, we really need the tie in for the 100k plus of HH era units that got spit out of the warp all mustered in the above system, cypher and his story climax, Luther and Marbus, tutulcha engine.
Whoever at GW had the idea of modelling Old Lionel after Charles Dance deserves some sort of award. It's my headcanon that Tywin Lannister got transported to the 40k setting and learned the valuable lesson that treating people like tools might not be the best tactic. Tywin Lionnister 😂
Kinda ridiculous they aged him, they're supposed to be functionally immortal, Perturabo was aged thousands of years by the Hrud and still looked the same, it's only been 10,000 years for Lion. Hopefully it's just him since he's the first primarch and perhaps not as finished as the others, which doesn't make much sense as he was supposed to be the template for all primarchs. Maybe he was lost in the warp for almost as long as Lorgar? Maybe it's due to Luther's mortal wound? I hope it's the last one.
I love this video pointing out the parallels that exist between Lion and Angron. Im a world eaters fan so i didn't give it as much thought, but the two really show the two ways this could have gone, the lion course correcting his sons from the path he initially set them on, and the red angel dooming his sons to live out the same pained existence as him with no hope of escape for any of them. Wonderful work as always.
The Primarch to Space Marine abuse in 40K is just so painful to me. Fuckers like Angron and Kurze time and again directly tell their sons they hate them, but the poor children just can’t live with it. They desperately try to make their fucked up fathers happy by striving to be as fucked up as them. Jaggo even asked Kurze why he hated his sons so much. It’s like a motherless child barely in his teenage years asking his alcoholic father what did he do wrong so he can fix himself and make his father love him. It’s heartbreaking
@@FriendlySwarmlordKurze is disgusted by his children because they are exactly like him and he knows it. Angron hates his kids because they aren't him, because they fail to keep up with him, they are forever failures in his eyes
I mean, half of his children also turned against him, lead by his second in command who felt betrayed, I think GW might have actually intended it as a parallel
He is the primarch that looks at you like a predator looks at prey. He sees your weaknesses, he can see colours, smells and sounds that you cannot even detect, he calculates tactics and outcomes of any who stand in front of him before they have taken their second breath in his presence. He is the first. He is his fathers Angel of Death and his loyalty is beyond reproach.
The major thing that I loved from the book, was the Lion Guard. Watching this gradual crusade of normal Imperial Guard swearing to fight alongside the Primarch, just kinda clicked into place well. I hope they get rules, but I doubt it.
As someone who doesn't play tabletop(too expensive even if I liked playing wargames), I just for the Lion guard to persist as fun or interesting characters in the literature. The Lion: "I really don't need bodyguards" The Lion guard:"...but what if there were more of us?"
I am Dark Angels fan and when the 2nd Codex came out with both legions I had a choice to make. Blood Angels were my close 2nd. I couldn't pass on Asmodai, Ezekiel or the Deathwing.
I got into 40k with Space Marine and Captain Titus. Wound up playing Blood Angels because I arbitrarily chose one that looked cool then got scooped up in a multiplayer match. Eventually, I became a Dark Angels fan, though the Blood Angels still hold a special place in my heart
The Emperor gifting Reboute the sword: Get that stick out of your ass and realize logistics needs experience in the field to get better, I will guide you! Lion gifted the Shield: You need therapy for your violent outbursts from fighting monsters for so long, you've forgotten who your allies are. Take this shield and find someone/something to protect instead of your own skin and tame and temper your ideals. You're a knight, not a despot. Shame the Emperor had to die to gain some character development into raising his sons instead of treating them like machinery.
Years and years of perpetual pain and being split into dozens of shards makes you reflect. I always had the belief that Big E grew feelings for his sons during the end of the great crusade and since he had an idea of what was going to happen he was scared by his love so he immediately cut that part of him out of his soul
Just subbed, i love talking about the depth and themes we can learn from the primarchs so im very ecstatic that you’re doing this series. Gonna watch every video.
The song is from an album called everywhere at the end of time. Its a 6 hour album representing alzheimers and dementia. It features an old timey song that over time gets so degraded it just becomes noise with occaional familiarities poking through the surface before being lost again. @buryitdeep
The argumebt over who gets the sword and who gets the shield is based in the dichotomy between pragmatism in-universe, and telling a story effectively. Pragmatically, it *would* make more sense to give The Lion the Sword, as he is more effective that way, but that fails to acknowledge the story the author was trying to tell. That's the difference there. It makes sense in a pure numbers game, to give the best thing to the best character available, to Optimize the Loadout. But Optimizing a Loadout does not tell the best *Story.*
Guilliman was given the sword before he was put to sleep by Fulgrim and I think the Lion was already MIA then; while pretty much any of his remaining loyal brothers could had used the sword better in combat, since they all are better 1v1 fighters than him, the sword is more than that it's his symbol of authority as Regent so beyond the intended messenge of giving Guilliman something he lacked it also reinforced his natural role as ruler, that to me seems very practical besides being allegorical.
Something I always found neat was how The Lion and Russ are sides of the same coin. The Lion is a Knight a soldier a leader but at his core he is a wild animal. Russ on the other hand plays the beast however he is a noble leader and a great king.
Russ is also the best Brother imo he's one of the few primarchs that knows his flaws and those his brothers had and has actually tried to help them get over them to mixed results.
Hell yeah a character I can understand and empathize with (fuck,why did it have to be the ones with the worst abuse circles, the lion, angron and Peter turbo).
This is not meant as a diss to Perturabo, but his childhood was idyllic compared to at least half of his brothers. Mortarion, Ferrus, Curze, Lion, Russ, Sanguinius, Corax, Angron, probably Omegon and arguably Lorgar all ended up in far worse circumstances as children. In fact, Perturabo's childhood was not all that different from Guilliman's.
The Lion and The Dark Angels, especially Deathwing, were my intro into 40k. Love them. Need to read the lore to see how the seething DA's are handling the reintegration of the Fallen, as well as what The Lion says to them about it.
The Lion's biggest flaw is that he assumes everyone follows his logic. So much so that he does not feel the need to explain anything to his son's. Every action he took was to him, the most logical choice, and that everyone can see that and agree. Waking up with the tiniest bit of self reflection added so much depth to his character. He is my favorite primarch.
burning in the vacuum of space doesn't defy logic as long as the fuel source is ALSO the oxidizing reagent. its why bullets can fire in space it has nitrate in the powder to provide the oxygen.
The lion kind of reminds me of Guts from Berserk. Forced to survive in harsh world, Live by the sword and secretive as hell. However with enough time both see that closing off themselves did more damage than good. Now both of them have people who they treasure and allow people around them and near them. I love this
Luther was brainwashed by a Chaos book I’m pretty sure and when he beat the Lion chose not to kill him and for 10K+ years was depressed and said Lion would forgive him now I think Lion is gonna kill him or maybe he’s changed and they will team up but What happens to Cypher is the real/another question
30k Lion Where he embodies the "1 bad apple spoiled the bunch" when it comes to Caliban. Imagine 1 city being traitor and he just destroyed the Whole Planet for it.
I am happy to see someone going deeper into the Lion and his personae than just "hurdur, he is terrible because he is autistic and almost made girlyman cry!" I have been saying this for a couple.of years now, that when you actually read the HH books and pay attention to the Lion and his motivations, that yes, he has problems with communication and trust, but he is very pragmatic and tries to do what is the best for the Imperium. And then Lion: Son of the Forest came out and it offered much growth and introspection, especially when he is faced with his own hubris and fears.
I'm probably late to this or that someone also put two and two together but the Lion and Kratos parallels are very similar. That being both have shields that holds something of great value to the self and not to it's ability. Kratos has the shield because it's from his wife and holds great sentimental value. When it breaks, he doesn't replaced it but tries to repair it. Lion's case isn't really personal in a sense of intimacy, but the emperor's shield is a reminder that Lion is not only the best warrior of mankind but also the defender of mankind or in a sense a defender of the emperor's dreams.
the idea that the lion being given a shield because he NEEDS to change his ways and stop perpetuating a cycle of violent lest he turn into something so much worse and THEN he's forced to fight Angron.... damn okay GW you're doing some decent writing
Side note, I was a casual lore fan and was one of those people that went "So the lion is the duelist and big blue is the brain boy. Sooooo why doesn't the Lion have the sword?" Well... this pretty much answered it.
I desperately want when Guilliman and Lion meet, for Guilliman to offer the sword to Lion, and he looks at it for a few moments, then gives it back, saying something about how there was a time when he would have accepted the sword, but that time is no more, and it belongs in Guilliman's hands now.
And then they released the 10th edition codex, where he looked at his sons told the older ones to never tell anybody about his abusive behavior or ever talk to anyone again, and tacitly acknowledged that the youngers decision to be brutal was entirely justified, because they are still in charge, and they are all of the named characters. 40K the setting, where we tee up complex moral debates only to release a book in six months it just declares that there never was one.
Burning in space isn't that spectacular. You just need to pack something flamable with an oxydizer. The compound will be stable until the burn reaction is triggered, for example by a spark. Once it's burning the heat will cause more material to burn.
Honestly I think Luther's perspective is pretty justified. Knowing what we know of Chaos, it doesn't make sense to use it at all because it is evil and consumes everything - but in Luther's view, so does the Imperium, which razed Caliban's forests, took all its resources, destroyed its culture, and shoved its people to suffer in labor hive cities while people from Terra ruled over them. The corruption at Caliban's core would have doomed it to immediate destruction had the Imperium found out, and I think it's reasonable for Luther and the others to turn towards that 'native' corruption, which had been there for centuries and hadn't yet outright destroyed Caliban, as a tool to resist that destruction, without knowing how truly evil it is. The Lion sent Luther and company back to Caliban, ignoring or not caring how it could be seen as a punishment and refusing to even receive their communications himself after a few years. He forgot about them and his home planet, taking their allegiance as his due and instead focusing on his own goals. He expected absolute loyalty and fealty in the knightly tradition, without providing the things that a lord should. I think his story and mistakes in the past closely mirror those of the Emperor - he was laser focused on conquest, on carrying out his vision, and ignored those who weren't relevant to it, whether his sons or his worlds, and this neglect led to mass suffering and treachery.
Story wise... The items given make the most sense. Meta wise... Some people just see the plastic minis and aim for the best stats. Doesn't help that it is a common problem with Iron Kingdoms and War machine where the company seems a bit more focused on narrative gameplay while the community if focused more on competitive gameplay. Also for story wise... This is an attempt to ensure we don't get an imperium worst than the current version we have. Most people focus on removing the threat than the future problems.
I'm not gonna lie but when The Lion was revealed to come out I thought damn that's cool as fuck but I'm not that into DA. This video has really peeled off a layer and revealed a new side of the DAs that I kinda wanna read the Son of the Forest book.
In honor of that one legend in the comments... ANGRON WHEN?! Seriously though, with how well you covered the Legions, I'm hyped for a Primarch series. This is going to be goooooooood!
"nobility at the cost of ethics is tyranny, no matter how you slice it''
deep shit brother, goddamn.
I think it's bs, what does he even meant by nobility?
@@Pepe-pq3om The idea that one operates by ethics and codes of conduct, even at the expense of the pragmatic and stealthy response. That weapons of war are used for the greater good of not just your own side, but to redeem even your enemies. That kind of viewpoint...where nobility of purpose is lost, that is where 40k becomes worse and worse. Where that is different...you get places like Ciaphus Cain's influence. Where you act to make things better, in spite of the setting, can in fact enact change.
In fact...actual idea just came to mind. The Primarchs as they appear may reveal each of the virtues that the Emperor had, and abandoned for speed and efficiency in the Great Crusade. But when the Emperor led as a leader directly, in the War in the Webway and more...he acted by his virtues. Could that be a slow reveal, as each new Primarch reveal occurs?
WON"T KNOW TILL 11th, SOMETIME BY THE END OF 2025!
Giving the Lion the shield and Guillmen the sword isn't about what they are best suited for. Its about giving them what they need.
Agreed. The symbolism of the arms is much preferred over min maxing. Sword for papa smurf as a leader, shield for Lion as a protector. Their changing personalities go with the weapons.
A funny bonus to Lion not getting the sword is that he can defeat daemon primarchs. GW won't permakill them, so the sword would be a hidden nerf anyway.
@@DoYouLiekMudkipz_ I always think that giving Gman the sword is giving him the potential to grow out of his only identity. Gulliman is not only a strategist. Because each primarch that has met him described him differently. Lionel said Gulliman's true talent is multi-tasking, not planning, Corax claimed Gulliman has the nature of a warrior as much as any other primarchs and Gulliman sees himself as a student, always curious and always wants to learn from others. He believed he could fix machines just like Perturabo or Vulkan, it just takes too much time since he doesn't have the talent and even if he tries he won't be able to match their best crafting. I think Gulliman was given the sword because it's the symbol of leadership but also to grow his potential as a fighter on the battlefield. Decide the potential of the student even before he starts is bad education.
I think it's the same with Lionel. Giving him the shield is to teach him to control his power. He already has destructive power and he doesn't need more. The shield takes away some of that destructive power in exchange for flexibility in tactics, forcing Lionel to think more about his approach before acting.
Why not give the Lion both? angron would already be gone for good 😂
@@minhducnguyen9276 A leader must be skilled in many things.
But Roboutes is no longer one amongst many but the center of the imperium alongside his father.
However the forces of chaos cannot reach the Emperor. Meaning he is the great enemy of chaos that must be struck down, hence the emperor giving him the means to strike them down for good.
@@pedropierre9594because Gulliman is using the sword
Adeptus Ridiculous said it best when comparing Russ to the Lion: Russ is the Knight playing Savage, Lion is the Savage playing Knight.
I think that's a quote from an actual book
@@ayoublahrach4169 I think so too
Nobel savage vs Savage Nobel
I don’t like it at all, because they are both who they are based on culture and they both have incredible savagery and honor but they behave outwardly how they want to behave
@@ericm3327 doesn't quite roll off the tongue does it tho?
The Lion reads very much as an undiagnosed autistic feral child who later in life learned about his autism
real recognize real
yup.
Yeah, every time I talk about the Lion with the boys I always bring that up.
I like how chill he is in modern times.
For real, I think most, if not all primarchs have undiagnosed mental disorders, Lion is one of the primary examples for me, the other one is rogal dorn.
@@Nightmare704RYpretty sure being bonked in the head just comes with the territory of a warp souled super bodied demi god
Dark angels are big fans of Spec ops the line
Do you feel like a hero
I might just play them if that's the case.
What can I say I'm a massive spec ops the line fan.
I love that game.
HE TURNED US INTO FUCKING KILLERS!!!!
You’re still a good person…
So one of the things that turns me off a lot of 40k lore yourubers is that any form of media analysis is an alien concept to them. It's lovely that you engage with these texts at a deeper level and i would love to see more of this kind of thing in the future.
Reminds me of Hbomberguy's review of Dark Souls 2 where he analyses the opening and contrasts it with the general reception of the time which was something along the lines of of "an old lady tells you to do stuff and then you jump into a whirlpool and that's a bad story hook".
Nerd culture in general is very lore obsessed and seems to shun media analysis.
tbf, that's because a whole lot of media analysis is the analyst bending over backwards to prove that the media supports their own politiks
Yeah theres a facination with pure facts and events that not many loretubers really look for themes and subtext
@@respectfulevil9022The A Song of Ice and Fire fandom has this like insanely bad. They create these insane theories and defend them to the death despite the fact it would be so thematically inconsistent with the books.
I think a bunch of that comes down to who is doing it and what theyre looking at.
Theres a lot to go through for 40K which leaves people with way different ideas on what something or how someone is that will heavily effect their take on it.
Huh I never considered Angron as the counter to The Lion's breaking the cycle. Makes the Arcs of Omen conclusion quite cool!
Since Angron never broke his cycle his sons have been forever damned and the lion must save his sons before they do the same or just wipe themselves out
The lion is finally back from his long slumber and now has the milk and cigarettes for his very secretive children who desperately need a father figure in their lives.😺
Warhammer is just "daddy issues the game"
@@jamesdeek7039 I'm daddies favourite. - Fulgrim
OMG dad you are THE BEST THING EVER. I'm gonna make sure everyone knows that my dad is better than anyone else, no matter what you say! - Lorgar
Why does Dad make me do the crappy chores while Rogal gets to play with the cool toys. - Perturabo
I wish dad would get off my back, I know what I'm doing with this warp stuff. I'm not some stupid kid. Oh well, what he doesn't know won't hurt him. - Magnus
I want to kill my dad so damn badly. Why the hell did my dad kill him? So not fair. - Mortarion
Why couldn't you have just let me die with my friends, dad? - Angron
Dad caught me skinning the neighbours -cat- and he didn't tell anyone. Didn't even get mad, just said "Son, I'm very disappointed." - Konrad
Damn, this knife smells funny. Dad kinda sucks and you know, I am SO much better than dad! - Horus
Dad, I don't know what you want me to do or who you want me to be. I don't know who I am, what I am, where I am or what side I'm on. And neither does anyone else. Especially not him. But maybe I do know. Maybe I'm right. Am I alive? I know everything and dad was right all along, he just didn't know it. I am Alpharius - Alpharius/Omegon
Milk and cigarettes in the form of the watchers
@@PumpkinHoarddamn I never considered Alpharius to have an identity crisis that's actually cool
Additional fun fact: phosphex weapons use is actually considered a war crime in 40k and they are largely banned for use. Thats how gross they are.
No shit?
@@Rock.E.Bottomthis is 40k. The imperium (and its enemies probably) drawing a moral line around a weapon? Says a lot.
You know a weapon is scary when the Imperium of Man calls it a war crime 😂
I thought it was less that than some Techpriest was so horrified that he destroyed their only STC fragment, which got him burned at the stake using a phosphex weapon
I thought it was more that phosphex rendered the territories they were trying to claim unusable
Fun fact: The Lion, Daddy Genocide, once had three Gloriana-Class Battle Barges to his Legion.
Well the nonpersonnel assets of the II and XI had to go somewhere, eldest son gets the goods first, Roboute and Rogal can get what is left.
Actually they had atleast 5 we know of. 3 of the 5 are named.
Five, actually. Lost at least two of them. One was damaged beyond repair, so they crashed it into a Rangdan planet.
I always figured that the ones still active will appear with the rest of the legion that is hold up in the Sonium star system, the entire legions battle group is likely there.
I hate how they have the 1st’s lore all over the board, we really need the tie in for the 100k plus of HH era units that got spit out of the warp all mustered in the above system, cypher and his story climax, Luther and Marbus, tutulcha engine.
Whoever at GW had the idea of modelling Old Lionel after Charles Dance deserves some sort of award.
It's my headcanon that Tywin Lannister got transported to the 40k setting and learned the valuable lesson that treating people like tools might not be the best tactic.
Tywin Lionnister 😂
Pretty much everyone is clamoring for Charles Dance as the lion in Cavill's 40k series.
Kinda ridiculous they aged him, they're supposed to be functionally immortal, Perturabo was aged thousands of years by the Hrud and still looked the same, it's only been 10,000 years for Lion. Hopefully it's just him since he's the first primarch and perhaps not as finished as the others, which doesn't make much sense as he was supposed to be the template for all primarchs. Maybe he was lost in the warp for almost as long as Lorgar? Maybe it's due to Luther's mortal wound? I hope it's the last one.
@@SwiftPaintsprobably just some warp shit
@@SwiftPaints Guilliman has been noted as aging by others. I think it's a mental thing that translates to their physical appearance.
I love this video pointing out the parallels that exist between Lion and Angron. Im a world eaters fan so i didn't give it as much thought, but the two really show the two ways this could have gone, the lion course correcting his sons from the path he initially set them on, and the red angel dooming his sons to live out the same pained existence as him with no hope of escape for any of them. Wonderful work as always.
Most recent Angron book highlights how much he just does not care and will destroy everything his sons built just to continue the cycle.
The Primarch to Space Marine abuse in 40K is just so painful to me. Fuckers like Angron and Kurze time and again directly tell their sons they hate them, but the poor children just can’t live with it. They desperately try to make their fucked up fathers happy by striving to be as fucked up as them. Jaggo even asked Kurze why he hated his sons so much. It’s like a motherless child barely in his teenage years asking his alcoholic father what did he do wrong so he can fix himself and make his father love him. It’s heartbreaking
@@FriendlySwarmlordKurze is disgusted by his children because they are exactly like him and he knows it.
Angron hates his kids because they aren't him, because they fail to keep up with him, they are forever failures in his eyes
"Mr. Bone man... do you think I can't use this shield as a weapon against you?" - Lion El' Jonson.
Loved the video. I have read the book and it was great, it really changed how I looked at the Lion, it really gave him a better story ark to follow
From a title like that and the "using people as tools" bit i would have thought this had way more to do with the way Big E acted towards his children
I mean, half of his children also turned against him, lead by his second in command who felt betrayed, I think GW might have actually intended it as a parallel
He is the primarch that looks at you like a predator looks at prey. He sees your weaknesses, he can see colours, smells and sounds that you cannot even detect, he calculates tactics and outcomes of any who stand in front of him before they have taken their second breath in his presence. He is the first. He is his fathers Angel of Death and his loyalty is beyond reproach.
The major thing that I loved from the book, was the Lion Guard. Watching this gradual crusade of normal Imperial Guard swearing to fight alongside the Primarch, just kinda clicked into place well. I hope they get rules, but I doubt it.
As someone who doesn't play tabletop(too expensive even if I liked playing wargames), I just for the Lion guard to persist as fun or interesting characters in the literature.
The Lion: "I really don't need bodyguards"
The Lion guard:"...but what if there were more of us?"
@@dapperultron1784 Lion: "You're normal people! You're not even trained!"
The Lion Guard: "And?"
Dark Angels Lore really makes me question my devotion to The Blood Angels... sometimes.
I am Dark Angels fan and when the 2nd Codex came out with both legions I had a choice to make. Blood Angels were my close 2nd. I couldn't pass on Asmodai, Ezekiel or the Deathwing.
They make for really fun allies. DA fan here but I've got a soft spot for BAs and I think they've always written it like that.
@ghannos9869 its nice to have a favorite Stable Geneseed Legion and a favorite unstable one.
I got into 40k with Space Marine and Captain Titus. Wound up playing Blood Angels because I arbitrarily chose one that looked cool then got scooped up in a multiplayer match. Eventually, I became a Dark Angels fan, though the Blood Angels still hold a special place in my heart
The Emperor gifting Reboute the sword: Get that stick out of your ass and realize logistics needs experience in the field to get better, I will guide you!
Lion gifted the Shield: You need therapy for your violent outbursts from fighting monsters for so long, you've forgotten who your allies are. Take this shield and find someone/something to protect instead of your own skin and tame and temper your ideals. You're a knight, not a despot.
Shame the Emperor had to die to gain some character development into raising his sons instead of treating them like machinery.
Years and years of perpetual pain and being split into dozens of shards makes you reflect. I always had the belief that Big E grew feelings for his sons during the end of the great crusade and since he had an idea of what was going to happen he was scared by his love so he immediately cut that part of him out of his soul
Lion El’Lannister
Just subbed, i love talking about the depth and themes we can learn from the primarchs so im very ecstatic that you’re doing this series.
Gonna watch every video.
Can’t wait for that twin primarch theory video.
The music you choose always makes me question if my schizophrenia meds are working or not...
I spent time on shazam trying to find what it was? I feel it is from the Shining?
@@buryitdeep it's always some kinda out of tune cartoon circus music lol
The song is from an album called everywhere at the end of time. Its a 6 hour album representing alzheimers and dementia. It features an old timey song that over time gets so degraded it just becomes noise with occaional familiarities poking through the surface before being lost again. @buryitdeep
@@lightmetro7508 the more you know 🔥
That's actually kinda weird to think about...
The argumebt over who gets the sword and who gets the shield is based in the dichotomy between pragmatism in-universe, and telling a story effectively. Pragmatically, it *would* make more sense to give The Lion the Sword, as he is more effective that way, but that fails to acknowledge the story the author was trying to tell. That's the difference there.
It makes sense in a pure numbers game, to give the best thing to the best character available, to Optimize the Loadout.
But Optimizing a Loadout does not tell the best *Story.*
Guilliman was given the sword before he was put to sleep by Fulgrim and I think the Lion was already MIA then; while pretty much any of his remaining loyal brothers could had used the sword better in combat, since they all are better 1v1 fighters than him, the sword is more than that it's his symbol of authority as Regent so beyond the intended messenge of giving Guilliman something he lacked it also reinforced his natural role as ruler, that to me seems very practical besides being allegorical.
Something I always found neat was how The Lion and Russ are sides of the same coin. The Lion is a Knight a soldier a leader but at his core he is a wild animal. Russ on the other hand plays the beast however he is a noble leader and a great king.
Russ is also the best Brother imo he's one of the few primarchs that knows his flaws and those his brothers had and has actually tried to help them get over them to mixed results.
This episode brought back so much past trauma...
..."daddy WAIT! I'll be good! Not the belt! NOT THE BELT!!"
I loved listening to this video and the introspect I got from it. All I wanted was 40k lore background noise and got a whole perspective change
That’s not title I was expecting, but I’m excited for it anyway
It was a lot easier to be angry at 20 than it is at 45. Just sayin'.
Man the Alpharius video will drive Arthur crazy
Hell yeah a character I can understand and empathize with (fuck,why did it have to be the ones with the worst abuse circles, the lion, angron and Peter turbo).
This is not meant as a diss to Perturabo, but his childhood was idyllic compared to at least half of his brothers. Mortarion, Ferrus, Curze, Lion, Russ, Sanguinius, Corax, Angron, probably Omegon and arguably Lorgar all ended up in far worse circumstances as children. In fact, Perturabo's childhood was not all that different from Guilliman's.
8:55 Interesting: This is one of the most famous line from Corvus Corax...
Probably the best break down of a character I’ve seen. Can’t wait for more
This is such an awesome analysis! Thank you so much! Also… Omori music jumpscare.
This is the exact stuff that makes you stand out. Keep up the great work
The Lion and The Dark Angels, especially Deathwing, were my intro into 40k. Love them. Need to read the lore to see how the seething DA's are handling the reintegration of the Fallen, as well as what The Lion says to them about it.
The Lion's biggest flaw is that he assumes everyone follows his logic. So much so that he does not feel the need to explain anything to his son's. Every action he took was to him, the most logical choice, and that everyone can see that and agree. Waking up with the tiniest bit of self reflection added so much depth to his character. He is my favorite primarch.
Still waiting that bones mentioned about Twin primarch theory from anonymous astartes podcast
I cannot wait for an Alpharius, Sanguinius or Perturabo version of this video. really awesome stuff Mr. Bones!
I’m reading the Dark Angels omnibus right now and Astelan is such a tool but also makes valid points.
burning in the vacuum of space doesn't defy logic as long as the fuel source is ALSO the oxidizing reagent.
its why bullets can fire in space it has nitrate in the powder to provide the oxygen.
"The cycle ends here. We must be better than this."
Great vid Bones... great perspective
*THE LION IS BACK, BABY!!!*
ZUES! YOUR SON HAS RETURNED! AND I BRING THE DESTRUCTION OF OLYMPUS!!!!!!!!!
Takk!
Is Cypher BOY to his Kratos?
Should be interesting for the stories of the primarchs. Waiting for Mr. DidNothingWrong.
[muffled sounds of Angron screaming FUCK YOU in the distance]
I appreciate the different take on The Lion.
The lion kind of reminds me of Guts from Berserk. Forced to survive in harsh world, Live by the sword and secretive as hell. However with enough time both see that closing off themselves did more damage than good. Now both of them have people who they treasure and allow people around them and near them. I love this
Luther was brainwashed by a Chaos book I’m pretty sure and when he beat the Lion chose not to kill him and for 10K+ years was depressed and said Lion would forgive him now I think Lion is gonna kill him or maybe he’s changed and they will team up but What happens to Cypher is the real/another question
Very cool insight and interpretation
30k Lion
Where he embodies the "1 bad apple spoiled the bunch" when it comes to Caliban.
Imagine 1 city being traitor and he just destroyed the Whole Planet for it.
"We must be better."
I am happy to see someone going deeper into the Lion and his personae than just "hurdur, he is terrible because he is autistic and almost made girlyman cry!"
I have been saying this for a couple.of years now, that when you actually read the HH books and pay attention to the Lion and his motivations, that yes, he has problems with communication and trust, but he is very pragmatic and tries to do what is the best for the Imperium.
And then Lion: Son of the Forest came out and it offered much growth and introspection, especially when he is faced with his own hubris and fears.
Theres plenty of material that can burn in the void, its not that crazy.
Burning in space does not defy logic. Check your chemistry and oxidation of substances.
Thought they confirmed in Lion Son of the Forest that Caliban fired on the Loyalist Fleet first?
No it was Calibian who shot first
@@robertoleary5470 My guy, you need to improve your reading skills.
@@robertoleary5470Thats what I said lol
I love how the emperor’s first son is named John Space Marine
I'm probably late to this or that someone also put two and two together but the Lion and Kratos parallels are very similar. That being both have shields that holds something of great value to the self and not to it's ability.
Kratos has the shield because it's from his wife and holds great sentimental value. When it breaks, he doesn't replaced it but tries to repair it.
Lion's case isn't really personal in a sense of intimacy, but the emperor's shield is a reminder that Lion is not only the best warrior of mankind but also the defender of mankind or in a sense a defender of the emperor's dreams.
Phosphex burning in space is fine, means it brings it's own oxygen, which for a weapon meant to work damn near anywhere makes sense.
So y'all saying Lion caving in Angrons skull was literally him banishing his demons? Shiiieeeet son, that's deep.
I did not consider the Shield/Sword aspect...Nice observation.
the idea that the lion being given a shield because he NEEDS to change his ways and stop perpetuating a cycle of violent lest he turn into something so much worse
and THEN he's forced to fight Angron.... damn okay GW you're doing some decent writing
It would be cool to see a psychological profile video like this about Rogal Dorn next
LETS GOOOO DARK ANGELS
I AM SO HYPED FOR THE PRIMARCH PROFILES
Don't go trying to turn my beloved IP about violent zealotry and xenophobia into something heavy and dark.
Grandpa Lion is best Lion.
“The cycle ends here. We must be better than this.”
-Kratos (GoW 2018)
Well done. Thank you
Now tell me more about crow daddy!
You mean Kurze? Corax is a raven, man.
Crow and raven are just what we call corvids based on size of the species, they arent actually monophyletic
I am exited for Peter Turbo
Side note, I was a casual lore fan and was one of those people that went "So the lion is the duelist and big blue is the brain boy. Sooooo why doesn't the Lion have the sword?"
Well... this pretty much answered it.
Why did I liougth two seconds in at the kratos comparison
I desperately want when Guilliman and Lion meet, for Guilliman to offer the sword to Lion, and he looks at it for a few moments, then gives it back, saying something about how there was a time when he would have accepted the sword, but that time is no more, and it belongs in Guilliman's hands now.
I reallly like this charachter interpretation
And then they released the 10th edition codex, where he looked at his sons told the older ones to never tell anybody about his abusive behavior or ever talk to anyone again, and tacitly acknowledged that the youngers decision to be brutal was entirely justified, because they are still in charge, and they are all of the named characters. 40K the setting, where we tee up complex moral debates only to release a book in six months it just declares that there never was one.
Now this is my kinda lore
Burning in space isn't that spectacular. You just need to pack something flamable with an oxydizer. The compound will be stable until the burn reaction is triggered, for example by a spark. Once it's burning the heat will cause more material to burn.
Dark Angels genefathers are another 40k's Tarzan
Honestly I think Luther's perspective is pretty justified. Knowing what we know of Chaos, it doesn't make sense to use it at all because it is evil and consumes everything - but in Luther's view, so does the Imperium, which razed Caliban's forests, took all its resources, destroyed its culture, and shoved its people to suffer in labor hive cities while people from Terra ruled over them. The corruption at Caliban's core would have doomed it to immediate destruction had the Imperium found out, and I think it's reasonable for Luther and the others to turn towards that 'native' corruption, which had been there for centuries and hadn't yet outright destroyed Caliban, as a tool to resist that destruction, without knowing how truly evil it is.
The Lion sent Luther and company back to Caliban, ignoring or not caring how it could be seen as a punishment and refusing to even receive their communications himself after a few years. He forgot about them and his home planet, taking their allegiance as his due and instead focusing on his own goals. He expected absolute loyalty and fealty in the knightly tradition, without providing the things that a lord should. I think his story and mistakes in the past closely mirror those of the Emperor - he was laser focused on conquest, on carrying out his vision, and ignored those who weren't relevant to it, whether his sons or his worlds, and this neglect led to mass suffering and treachery.
FOR THE LION 🦁
would love a video about the Consecrators, they're my fave Dark Angels successor
Lion is The first primarch. If he was made Warmaster, heresy wouldn't have happened🤷
Great video!
Story wise... The items given make the most sense.
Meta wise... Some people just see the plastic minis and aim for the best stats.
Doesn't help that it is a common problem with Iron Kingdoms and War machine where the company seems a bit more focused on narrative gameplay while the community if focused more on competitive gameplay.
Also for story wise... This is an attempt to ensure we don't get an imperium worst than the current version we have.
Most people focus on removing the threat than the future problems.
>like Kratos demake
>it's about muh deconstruction and becoming a better man (a soothing wimpy passive current year subversion)
holy mother of soy
Men are allowed emotions other than anger, doing things besides murder doesn't make them wimpy
I'm not gonna lie but when The Lion was revealed to come out I thought damn that's cool as fuck but I'm not that into DA. This video has really peeled off a layer and revealed a new side of the DAs that I kinda wanna read the Son of the Forest book.
I hope this video blows up. Love the character analysis, and how you explained Lion getting the shield. Can’t wait for the other Primarchs!
I like this. Everyone has someone or something in 40k that resonates with them. This can also be used to better understand real social issues. More.
BUY HIS MERCH PPL
Phosphex may suck in 40k, but in Heresy, it can be absolutely brutal.
As of lion son of the forest Luther's forces fired first
In honor of that one legend in the comments...
ANGRON WHEN?!
Seriously though, with how well you covered the Legions, I'm hyped for a Primarch series. This is going to be goooooooood!
I can't wait for Vulcan the cuddle monster video or Angron the not so cuddly monster.
Great take.
Are the watchers in the dark the 40k equivalent to fantasy wood elves or should I trying to match with Jaghatai blunt for blunt?
Oh hells, I'm Lionel Johnson...