Air Source Heat Pump 1st Winter Performance 2022-23 in Solid Stone Welsh Cottage
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- Опубликовано: 28 июн 2024
- This is a follow-up to my self installed air source heat pump in my solid stone Welsh cottage: • How I fitted an Air So...
Note: most of this video was filmed in April 2023, unit energy prices may have changed slightly since then.
The system is monitored using a Level 3 OpenEnergyMonitor Heat Pump monitoring system: shop.openenergymonitor.com/he...
Live and historic monitoring data is available here: emoncms.org/samsung5kw
This system is also listed on: heatpumpmonitor.org
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This is the most thorough and professional heat pump installation performance review I have seen. Well done.
Great video, you are an inspiration to those people that want to install a system and know that everything is done properly. It's a gamble if you have paid somebody to do it. They could be cowboys and bodgers that have jumped on the grants being given out.
I find it so funny when people tell me that heat pumps are rubbish. Great work Glyn
finally got round to viewing this, brilliant to see a well executed design with excellent technical analysis of performance in use
Really impressive video. Never apologise for giving data. Great example of the importance of good preparation. You must be thrilled with how all your planning paid off. Don't think the Daily Mail will highlight your story. Thank you for sharing.
Thanks, haha I would prefer if they didn't! The less interaction I have with the Daily Mail the better! The BBC did actually run a story about heat pump monitoring that featured OpenEnerygMonitor www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64261457
Great stuff Glyn, thanks for the update. We’re very much looking forward to joining you on this journey once we get our ASHP system installed. Yours and other vlogs have been so influential in making this decision. Please keep up the excellent work for others to see.
Did you need planning permission forbthis heat pump?
I love how you think and what you're capable of doing. And that's one handsome baby you have there. He's adorable!
I have a Fujitsu air to air mini split air conditioner and it's changed the way I heat my house completely . I used to burn oil all the time but now I can turn this heatpump on from my phone app. Means I come home to a warm house and it being air to air it only takes 10 mins from turning on to being warm in the house. I find if I run it for 6 hours it uses 2kwh of electricity . During that cold spell (-3c) it used slightly more 2kwh in 5 hours but that to me is realy efficient and installation was very easy with it just being a unit at roof height inside and ground mounted outside unit
Fantastic performance, good for you 👌
Great that the property is still comfortable with radiators running at such a low flow temp, and as a result the COP on even the coldest day is awesome. I saw a recent BBC article that said ASHPs can provide “up to 300% efficiency” but with a decent installation 300% is the MINIMUM expected efficiency, certainly not the max!
Great to see a video with all the facts & stats supporting the positives when so much of the MSM are downplaying how good ASHPs can be.
Curious about the apparent drop in efficiency when the flow is
Indeed, a COP of above 3 is the expected minimum!
The drop in efficiency at very low flow temperatures is somewhat negligible, and probably specific to my system. I included it because I thought it was interesting and not something I've heard discussed before. For most system most of the energy is delivered at a flow temp higher than 35C.
This is exactly the sort of videos we need, true performance data. Yes you're absolutely right on the open loop system. My older Samsung won't go lower that 30⁰ so will experiment with similar setup. I have seen engineers set the bottom flow temperature curve setpoint around 20⁰, complete waste of time IMO.
One of the best videos I've seen on this. Pitched pertty much on the perfect level for me.
(As an engineer, who also incidentally uses the emon monitoring on my DIY solar/battery system.)
Thank you for sharing this follow up 👍 Great to see it performing well with real data to prove it 😊
Great to see the results of the over winter use. I watched the installation in awe, I remain so when I see your detailed results.
Excellent video. Thanks. We've run a heat pump in our house for two winters now. Our experience is very similar to yours. Our house is old (c1690), made of rubble and cob and far from thermally sealed. But it's does have heavy masonry (thermal mass) which is perfect for the constant gentle heating of the ashp. Far more comfortable and cheaper than previous which was a modern mains gas combi. Heat pumps clearly work in any kind of house with a bit of simple insulation and draught proofing. The secret (as you found) is using accurate heat loss calculation to correctly size the pump and rads to run at low temperature. Thanks again. Your vid will be perfect for my daughter's new home!
Thanks, that's great to hear. Yes, I think the large thermal mass of the house is useful
Thanks for this. We live in Mid-Wales and can’t get our oil CH serviced. Nobody wants to do it. We are therefore being forced to look for alternatives. It’s going to be an huge expense. We only have State Pension. Talk about ‘fuel poverty’!
There is a £7500 grant available towards the cost of a heatpump and if you qualify you can get one free of charge through the Eco4 scheme in Wales. An efficiant heatpump system will be cheaper than oil to run
Brilliant stuff Glyn, So pleased for you how well it has performed. Hopefully to inspire many others...millions of others!
I love the data! Can't see anyone else doing it. Keep it coming. Really useful stuff. Thanks.
Brilliant! So pleased you have done an update, been waiting for this. Thank you for all the information.
Thanks for sharing all this data.
A big thanks for the update!
Great to see a real world installation in action, especially good it's shown in terms a layperson can understand, great work, keep it up !!!!!!
Really useful data. Certainly helps making my mind up on getting one
Thank you for the update and detailed analysis.
Thanks for doing this, it's very informative and will definitely help with my planning for fitting a system.
Excellent. Thanks for the video. I really enjoyed the detail.
Brilliant video Glyn, together with the install video it makes an excellent resource!
Great analysis and talk through ❤
An excellent detailed and informative video. Thanks
Thank you for this very informative and well made video! Subscribed.
Excellent video. Thanks for all the data an evaluation, very helpful indeed
Superb, well done
just love thoes sweater's
Woohoo, the video I’ve been waiting for (having glued myself to your stats page on the open energy monitor webpage)…. Looking forward to watching it in full (after I’ve re-watched technology connections heat pump series)
Excellent video Glyn. Will be switching to an air source heat pump soon. Thanks for such a great video as always. Malcolm
Well done Glyn!
Genuinely inspirational. I am now planning a similar installation myself in the Spring/Summer 2024 - also in an old stone cottage in North Wales. Thanks for posting this and the previous video.
well done Glyn. I am glad it is working so well for you.
Cheers, thanks for all the information you've shared in your videos. It's been very helpful.
Excellent video, many thanks.
Great Job !!
Thanks Glyn, Harry and Amy, I’m getting a survey to install an ASHP tomorrow!
A small investment but I’ll ultimately be saving £££ and not pumping out tonnes of carbon dioxide.
Keep up the good work👍🏼
Thanks! Best of luck with your installation
Realy please for you. Great work and data.
Really good video Glyn - great to see how you cover the important aspects of performance which are also those which influence the big should I / shouldn’t I Q for those of us assessing if ASHP options and what they mean in reality. Good job mate 👍🏼
Very Impressed - this gives me the confidence to crack on and order an ASHP. Thanks for sharing Glyn.
Thanks. I will be revisiting this video in the next decade. Obviously if the next government get behind this manufacturing costs will come down and tech will get even better. I once had a house price appraiser comment that I had too many cupboards in my house but now I can see that this will be of great future benefit when sizing a a tank! Thanks again and good luck for the future.
Great video Glyn. Your original videos inspired me to replace my gas boiler with a ASHP. Whilst I did not install the system myself, the information you gave helped me with the selection of an installer. From my experience the quality of installers varies. Only two out of the five contractors carried out heat loss surveys. They recommended heat pumps from 7kW all the way up to 14kW. My own calculations put my heat loses around the 7kW mark.
Hi Mark, that's fantastic to hear! Thanks for the kind words
Nice job. Interesting to see the differences with the flow temperatures. Thanks for the top video.
Great job glyn! Its vlearly a lot of worj but a) worth it and b) yiuve explained it really well
Brilliant video
Thank you for your inspirational video. It was all very clear. M
Thank you, Michael. That's praise indeed, I always enjoy reading your blog. Best wishes.
Thanks Glyn this is a brilliant video with loads of useful information and review. The Open Energy Monitoring system is a dream, I'm really pleased with mine too. Interesting about the efficiency loss on the lower flow temps. Plus I was interested to learn about the lower water temp giving better SCOP on DHW. Great set of stats and explanation. Thank you.
Thanks for the comment, glad it was helpful!
Very interesting stuff.
Thanks Glyn, I was walking over your way yesterday, didn't need any heating.
Lovely, hope you had decent weather. It's been a bit damp recently. The heating has been off since May, this is an update to how the ASHP performed over the winter, embarrassingly I started work on the video in the spring but never got round to editing it until now.
An excellent video with very useful real-world data.
You mentioned that your system isnt "zoned", however i noticed that you have thermistatic valves on your radiators, which effectively means that you have individual room zones.
Thanks. Zones are usually defined by having zone valves to be able to heat different parts of the house at different times. Correct, we have TRVs so we have the option to reduce heating on one or more radiators but we've left all the TRVs fully open
Thanks for posting this follow up Glyn, very detailed and super impressive results, excellent work! You inspired me to push on the controls a little harder to see if I can improve things. Switching from fossil fuel to heat pump already reduced the maximum achievable DHW tank temp, so I was happy we could "live with" that change already I didn't want to push it further. Not sure if you found you needed to schedule or ration hot water usage with your setup of one tank top up per day, that would be a tough sell for my family, but I'll probably be surprised at what some creative optimization can achieve in terms of energy savings without deprivation. Thanks again for sharing your experience!
Thanks, we have plenty of hot water, if we need more we just press the boost button on the controller or mobile app, the heat pump heats water much faster than an electric immersion, it only takes about 20min to top up the tank. 150L is plenty for a couple showers and a bath for a baby. I've found that topping up the tank to a relatively low temperature twice per day is more efficient that once big topup to a high temperature once per day.
This is a great Video. We had a Vaillant heat pump installed in April, and it is now approaching it's first winter. So far it is quite mild here in Germany, so almost no heating is needed, but soon I will see the real world consumption and efficiency in Winter.
It's a 5.5KW Arotherm Plus, Underfloor heating heating in a well insulated house, so in theory it should work well.
That's great to hear, Vaillant heat pumps are great. It should work extremely well with UFH 👍
Excellent Glyn, thank you. I bet it took some time to edit all that together.
Been looking at my system and the only problem I can see regarding fitting a heat pump is that it will need to be located on the north side of the house so will not get any winter sun - that is bound to make difference to the performance.
That's totally fine, direct sunshine won't make any significant difference to the air temperature the HP sees. Yes, rather embarrassingly started filming this in April but it took until now to finish the editing!
Extremely informative blog Glyn, so much FUD being chucked around these days about ASHP (even my plumber who serviced my 18 year old oil boiler before I sell up believes they’re a waste of time). Info like this based on real data proves otherwise & shows what a Luddite he is. 👍
Prestcold Oxford told me in the 60's that unless you have a river at the bottom of your garden forget heat pumps. I still believe them.
you did a good install mate far better than my one, last winter before the power cut for 8 days we had a cop of just 1,5 (granted we get -34c) you heat loss is really good for an old building as well
Thanks. Wow, -34C is very cold! Where in the world are you?
@@GlynHudson currently UK but live in buffalo NY most of the year over here for work at the moment
Hi Glyn, Love this video this is great to dispel the naysayers and FUD we are experiencing atm. I had my Daikin 7kW installed by Octopus in June 22 and to backup what you have found I did not freeze in Dec 22 !! The design was 50c @ -2c ext. In Dec 22 I reduced weather comp to 50c@-15 / 30c@18ext. Our annual stats were were Heating 2667kwh ==> 9682 kWh (sCOP = 3.64) DHW 532kWh==> 1270KWh(sCOP = 2.39). Wondering if I need to add extar rads to get higher sCOP !! We also have solar but no battery so we used further 867kWh using Eddi diverter 68% of which was free ! Our average cost of electricity was 24.5 p/kWh as we used roughly 50% at night rate on GO Faster. . We are now looking forward to Ripple 2 savings and considering the final step of a battery. Keep the videos coming . Thank you
Hi Philip, thanks for your kind comment. A COP of 3.6 is pretty decent, your system will be cheaper to run than mains gas. I'm surprised Octopus set flowT of 50C at -2C ext. Assuming this is what Octopus calculated that you would need, this indicates that your emitters are a bit on the small side, and you probably won't be able to reduce the WC curve any further. Radiators are relatively low cost and usually not too difficult to upgrade. Does the Daikin have built in COP monitoring?
@@GlynHudson Yes I have done a daily read for both heating and hot water to get my figures. It is a shame that all the Data is on the controller but not accessible remotely. My system is an Altherma 2. I have however set up home assistant to mimic openenergy monitor and fitted temp probes on flow and return. What I don't have is a flow monitor I can read into HA despite the controller having this data !! I am hoping that my sCOP will be higher this winter as I only sorted out my weather comp in second half of heating season. Cheers.
Brilliant videos Glyn, have really helped me understand ASHPs, what we need to look at etc. and definitely going to go for this now. Don't suppose you fancy doing the install do you?! We are not too too far from you!
Thanks, haha even though I'm sure I would enjoy it, I'm afraid I don't much free time at the moment!
@@GlynHudsonI hope you don't mind if I ask you one question instead!? I saw you mounted your unit on the extension, so not the stone wall part of the house, but would you still have wall mounted if this was your only option? Our end of terrace is made from slate stone with lime pointing and not sure if it would be advisable to wall mount on slate stone walls? Your thoughts based on your experience on this would be much appreciated :) With many thanks, Su
Really interesting update video, and great to see it's working so well for you! We've had our Daikin ASHP installed for nearly 6 years now, though I'm still not convinced we're getting the best out of it as our electricity usage through the winter months seems astronomical in comparison to your figures. We did get down below -10 last winter on a few occasions which I don't think helped matters.
Wow, -10C is cold! However, the performance of an ASHP actually increases slightly as the temperature drops significant below freezing since there's less moisture in very cold air which means less defrosting. 0-2C is the worst temperatures for heat pump performance, especially if humidity is high. You can compare the kWh per m2 of floor area that your heat pump is using compared to other systems on heatpumpmonitor.org/
I suspect your Daikin hasn't been optimised! Doing that on a friend's halved their electricity consumption. Find an installer who knows Daikin and have them take look
@@dan_grey thanks! I think that may well be the case, however Daikin installers in the South of Scotland are proving very tricky to find.
@@mpdnuk you could probably figure it out from the Daikin manuals but it's not easy. Be sure to read the reference guides as well as the manuals, for both installer and operators (yes basically each Daikin model has four different manuals 🤦).
Start with getting the controller on the indoor unit into Installer mode, then look to set the weather compensation to lower values, and put the DHW on a daily schedule, doing a tank boost at the warmest time of day (early afternoon).
Excellent video. I have had a heat pump (Panasonic) for 10 years and know from experience how good they can be. I am still tweaking the controls (just because I want to get the best out of it). My current setting is to modulate flow temperature between 25 and 35 deg C depending on external temperature. Really interested in your analysis. I don't have all the monitoring kit so cannot see what difference the temperatures make. I think for this winter I will try setting it up a bit higher and see how that works.
Hi Glynn, fantastically produced video and extremely useful. I am a building performance energy modeller just thought - with such great data from your ASHP and as you have a sketch up model of your house, I was wondering if you might be willing to share the sketch up and some other construction details of the house. I could then try build an energy model of the house and the HVAC system (specific to the heat pump you are using) and compare the model results with your data. I wonder how close I could get the model to the reality, and whether the model could be trained. This could be useful for you in analysing the outcomes of further interventions in your property. If this something you might be interested please send me a PM. Would be great to heat from you.
Glyn, your two ASHP videos are excellent. Thank you for all your efforts that went into making these videos. Very detailed and well explained. I have a question about the vibration mounts, did they come with the wall mount or is this something you added? Any more details would be much appreciated.
Thanks, the anti vibrations mounts were sourced separate, they are AVMB-1 Pump House, DiversiTech International. However, I recently helped a friend of mine fit the same ashp on thr same wall mount bracket without them and there's no vibrations so I don't think they're necessary.
How come you didn't give me those flow meters?! They look hi-tech! 😂love your content and style of video,
Hey Owen, thanks! The Sontex 789 has a higher pressure drop than Kamstrup 403, so we only use them for heat pumps up to 7kW. I do like Sontex meters, they use a different flow measurement technique which is less effected by turbulence and air. However, the larger Sontex meters e.g Supercal 5 for heatpumps above 7kW are significantly more expensive.
Brilliant update Glyn, and a fantastic job you've done of your installation. Thanks for all your information and statistics. I'm just about to move over to ASHP, and already have 6kWp of solar and 2 x 6.5kWh batteries with a Zappi. Currently run on oil, and have a well insulated 3 bed bungalow in Mid/West Wales. Just had an assessment done, so await some dimensioning figures and any changes required for radiators and hence sizing for Heat Pump. Your stats have really helped to re-assure me on the benefits of moving over to Air Source.
Wow, sounds like you have a nice setup. A HP should work very well for you
Would be interesting to know how your heat loss calcs compare to that of "professionals"
@@ChampionCCC professional surveys have to use pre defined assumptions about the house based on its age. This generally results in a much greater heatloss result because the default assumptions e.g on air chargers per hour are very pesemistic. I got a door blower test done to prove that my air chargers where much lower.
Did you replace all pipes? It looked like you still have a lot of 15mm.
@@domhnallmorris I've got 22mm primary pipework and 15mm pipes to the radiators. This is plenty for my heat load. 10mm microbore pipework can also work fine with a heatpump, I all depends on the heat load required
Hi Glyn, this is a really excellent video showing the effectiveness of your system - heat pumps are absolutely the way forward and I'm glad to see someone showing how these can be practically used for the UK's old housing stock. I do have one question for you - did you consider using an external hot water tank at all? They can be extremely well insulated and appear to be a good option on smaller houses with some exterior space. Happy to hear your thoughts. Many thanks!
Hi, thanks for your comment. I had space inside the house and limited outdoor space so the obvious choice was to fit the tank inside. However, I know other people who have successfully fitted a tank outside or in a shed, it's totally possible. Also, a heat battery e.g Sunamp can be a good solution instead of a DHW tank if space is limited. Here's a good blog post about an external DHW tank energy-stats.uk/plant-room-project/
No they are actually not, did you see the tv program, they are way too expensive to install and way to expensive to run at the current electricity rates .
@@uksupporter8867 I'm not sure what TV program you are referring to but I can assure you there is going to be an influx of heat pumps being installed on UK properties over the next decades. Electricity prices are high because wholesale gas prices are high. With more and more renewables coming online there will be a divergence between the trend in electricity prices and gas prices sooner or later, therefore running costs will drop even further below that of gas boilers (they're already significantly cheaper to run). You are correct that installation costs are high, as with any emerging technology the cost of this will also plummet with more national uptake. It's good to have a questioning attitude but I would encourage you to dig further into the details with an open mind.
Impressive results ive had to turn down fitting a heat pump due to initial instal costs hoping the next government pull their finger out and help more.
£3960 i just about had but the extra £2900 for a repipe i didn't 😢
With figures like yours im glad i am waiting to be honest because the system would not have been run at that sort of temperature they were aiming for 50°c 👍
And our house is 1968, wall insulation mid terrace with massive loft insulation double glazing basically the full works 😅
Sorry to hear, but I would be very surprised if a well insulated mid-terrace would need 50C flow temp. At 50C flow temp you should expect a SCOP of around 3.5 according to Vaillant Aerotherm plus datasheet, still cheaper than main gas but not a huge saving. Carbon savings will still be significant, but obviously ideally you would increase the size of emitters to be able to run at a lower flow temperature.
Great job with the install and good to see it functioned really well. Will you be tweaking anything about your setup before autumn?
One quick question about the kitchen kick-space heater; I've looked around and found that many such heaters have a thermistor which switches the fan on only when flow temperature exceeds ~40 degrees C. Did you find a make where this is more configurable, did you alter the thermistor or have some sort of work-around (e.g. a smart plug controller to turn the fan on when heating is needed)?
Hi, thanks for your kind comment. No, I'm not planing any changes, it's all working as intended. Yes, I had to modify the kickspace heater fan to switch on at lower flow temp, I bypassed the internal sensor and fitted inside a smart relay with a temperature sensor, so I can configure the flow temp that it switches on.
Really useful info Glyn, particularly regarding your home battery. I have the Growatt 6.5KWH and debating whether it is worth going to 13KWH when I get my heat pump fitted. Looks like I'd only get the benefit of the additional battery in the Winter months. I think my house is very similar to yours so it gives me hope that I can get 400% from the heat pump.
Thanks, best of luck with your new heat pump!
I've installed a heat pump in Newport South Wales where we have warmer weather so let's see how well it goes.
Sorry should have added, videos like these start a snowball for other people sat on the fence who are unsure.
Great presentation with the charts etc, did you use an energy monitoring software system or did you do the calculations and then use a spread sheet.
Thanks, I used OpenEnergyMonitor Emoncms to monitor the heatpump and produce most of the graphs, but I did create some with using google sheets shop.openenergymonitor.com/level-3-heat-pump-monitoring-bundle-emonhp/
call me sad but ive always wondered how your heat pump was performing after watching your install video ive completed all the heat geek courses which i highly recommend to anyone & your bang on with pretty much everything they teach to make heat pumps the most efficient definitely the future of heating. good luck with everything in life glyn & family
Thanks, yes the Heat Geek is a fantastic course
@@GlynHudson I know it’s abit late now but did you every consider a mixergy cylinder especially now you have solar pv?
@@jasonhayward1140 no, mixergy doesn't work well with a HP, a normal coil gives better performance
Fantastic video Glyn. Excellent editing and use of data & charts!
What would the cost of energy be if you included the all the battery costs over its excepted lifetime? Or maybe you did already?
The payback on the battery will be less than 5 years. It saves about £1k/yr in electricity cost at current rates.
Would it be beneficial to install the Samsung flow and return temperature sensirs onto pipe pockets too ?
I am super impressed with your diligence of finding the most efficient flow temperature.
Ultimately too, having installed it all yourself, you know it inside out.
So many people have incorrectly or inefficiently installed HP's by "professionals". You prove even moreso why it makes sense to do a self install
Thanks. Yes, it probably would, but unfortunately the sensors are located inside the outdoor unit, presumably inside the heat exchanger so, I'm not able to access them.
Thanks Glen. Really helpful. I also do have the same Samsung Heatpump. But one thing which I am struggling is the support from the installers. The do have very poor knowledge of the system and keeps on saying the same thing again and again when I call them for different purpose. However, I am watching several videos of this sort to gain knowledge. I am so happy to know that you are benefitting with the device. I understand that the setup in which the system should run is the key here. If this is not right, you end up paying more than what gas boiler does. This is what I am going through now. Can you please do a video of the setup you have in your system. If you have one, please point me to that. Also I had nest controller for my gas boiler which is being used for the heat pump as well. Is that advised or should i get rid of it. Your response will be highly appreciated.
Spring? Have you been hibernating ;). Great to see such good results, even on an old building. I'm tempted to get a door blower test on my house. Did you find many areas that you could seal up with your test?
I know, it's embarrassing how long it too me to finish editing this! I filmed most of it back in April 😅. Door blower test is a great idea, yes it did alert me to a few areas that I subsequently sealed up, it's probably the most cost effective thing, drafts are usually cheap and easy to solve
Nice report - i do think the Samsung is under promoted generally - if only they made more effort with installation data and a few small changes. The standard controller is great - i see many videos with it fitted to the control box in a garage which then requires another thermostat - makes no sense to me.
Agree, using third party controls usually results in much lower efficiency. It's a shame Samsung don't offer a wireless controller option, that's the mains reason why I think installers don't use the inbuilt controller is that running a wire to the living space can be tricky.
@@GlynHudson as it’s a two wire bus it’s easy to run. I have bought a 2nd to install for the gnd floor. Finding the part number was not easy buying one even more difficult. Found one via enay.
Yes my impression is that Korean tech is generally high quality.
Lots of very useful information here. Very interesting. Did you have to replace the older radiators and who installed this system? Thanks
Thanks, I installed it myself. Here's a video of the install which covered the radiator replacements ruclips.net/video/Hyv_vQEvHgo/видео.htmlsi=ZIge-PVyCLxC2GEQ
Brilliant work! I have DIYed 3 gas central heating systems before, in previous homes and had to have a new gas boiler installed last year, because of the CORGI regs. After watching your install, I am now thinking of DIYing a heat pump. Fortunately, I used 22mm primary pipework so it might be a goer. I will have to reinstate a HWC and will look up the physics and calculations about heat loss etc. Do you have any links to theory stuff? I studied engineering physics so I think I can understand. Keep up the great work!
Thanks. You get about 6kW down at 22mm pipe at 0.9mps at DT5. Watching all the heatgeek and urbanplumber videos is a good place to start. Also, heatpunk.co.uk is an excellent heat loss calculation tool.
Really interesting that the efficiency at the lower 30DegC flow temperature was higher. I never expected to see that.
Yes, it was an interesting observation but quite a marginal difference either way, and probably quite specific to my system, the general rule of thumb that lower flow temp = higher efficiency is still true.
@@GlynHudson I don't have a heat meter on my system as it was already installed when we moved in, but during last heating season I changed my NIBE inverter maximum output frequency from 'Auto' mode for heating and limited it to the minimum frequency. This resulted in longer run times and much less cycling at the low flow temperatures.
In the coldest weather there was one day where it ran almost all day. Something I'd never seen previously.
Morning Glyn, Another really useful video gives me encouragement on my low carbon journey, I have a 1867 previously 2up 2 down Cottage that’s had several extensions, we put underfloor heating in two lower floors and are now insulating again the roof spaces and plan a ASHP in 3 years time, we just had the same GE battery as you but a slightly bigger solar array and good to know the battery can supply lot of generation on cheaper tariffs, well done , do you have any other future projects in mind
Thanks, best of luck with your installation. Yes, more solar PV! It's an addiction 😂
Great video! I'm just in the process of looking at a heat pump..I do have a question about your kickspace heater. Does it work ok? From what I can pick up they only work when the water is 43 degrees or above. We have one in our kitchen and its been a god send as we have our kitchen, diner living space all opened up. Thanks :)
Thanks! I had to modify the thermostat in the kickspace to make it switch the fan on at a lower temperature. I bypassed the original mechanical thermostat inside the kickspace and replaced it with a smart relay which is controlled via a temperature sensor on the flow pipe which enters the kickspace.
Interesting that you choose to run the heat pump over the eddi. Is the wear and tear on the compressor etc worth it?
Yes, I use 4-5x less energy using ASHP for DHW in summer compared to direct immersion, this leaves more solar PV generation available for other tasks like EV charging. Compressors are more likely to fail when they're not used, the compressor in fridges last for years in regular use
Thanks for sharing all this. U.S. here. Planning to switch to heat pump, DIY. Lengthy process. Shooting for Spring 2025 installation. Just this week we are experiencing -15c degree daily lows/-8c degree highs. Pretty sure you guys benefit from a warmer weather stream, despite higher latitude. I’m no meteorologist, nor HVAC expert, but I wonder if you maybe experienced a recent polar vortex bomb cyclone cataclysmic end days event and, if so, could report on performance?
Most heat pumps will work down to -25C, although you would probably want an inline backup booster heater if you regularly see below -20C. It's unusual for UK to see below -10C. Best of luck with your installation.
This is an inspiring video - thanks for making it. I'm trying to understand how the system manages relatively low-temperature space heating (35°C) and relatively high temperature (up to 65°C) DHW heating at the same time. Is space heating paused while DWH heating is happening? What sort of plumbing arrangement and controller are necessary to make this happen? Any references you could provide to educational material would be very welcome. Thanks.
Thanks, yes your correct the system can either do space heating or DHW. Not both at once, but DHW only takes about 30-40min so I just schedule it during the night when we don't need space heating as much. There's a three-port valve controlled by the HP which diverts the flow between DHW or space heating. The HP ramps up the flow temperature during a DHW cycle. If you look at the data from my unit during the summer months, you'll see it only doing DHW emoncms.org/samsung5kw
Great video Glyn, thank you! I’m currently looking at ASHP / solar solutions for renovation of my cottage. What level of insulation does your cottage have?
I haven't got any insulation in the walls or floor, I've just got about 100mm - 150mm of loft insulation
@@GlynHudson Thanks Glyn, very helpful!
Hi Glyn, excellent video and really interesting. I’m based in N Wales, can I ask who did your air tight Survey? It’s something I’m keen to do too. 👍
Toby Keep from www.walesbuildingperformance.co.uk/?s=09 did it for me 👍
Thanks for this great video Glyn. It’s been hard finding real, practical descriptions of heat pumps in stone houses. You mentioned keeping the system simple - do you have any links for central heating system design? I’m an engineer, so can handle long reads and details, if needed.
Thanks. Generally less is more when it comes to heatpumps. As you can see this is a simple system with no zonning or buffer tanks. Watching the @Heatgeek and @UrbanPlumbers videos is very useful.
@@GlynHudson I just watched a couple of @Heatgeek 's videos. I think those, plus their technical articles, are just what I'm looking for. Thanks!
4.20 your wife says the house is warm whilst wearing a warm jumper and warming her hands on her hot drink. Lol
Here's a link to the live data from this system, as you can see the average is 20.4C (max 21.7C / min 18.9C emoncms.org/samsung5kw
Great Video Glyn. I wish all installers were as smart. My ASHP Samsung 16kw is hopeless. Year to date kw used is 2847.9 with 161.2 kw generated. It doesn't make sense. Installers have checked it time and time again. Our house is 3 years old super insulated with underfloor heating set to 19 deg. There must be something wrong. Any ideas?
What flow temperature are you running? This is set via Samsung weather compensation settings which are called Water Law. The lower the flow temperature the higher the efficiency. If it's getting a COP of less than 2.5 something is very wrong. It could be many different things, I would recommend trying to get a heat geek installer to visit. Where in the country are you?
@11:15 Wow, that is a very narrow off-peak time period. Pretty neat and definitely need the battery to fit all your electric inflow during that time. Do you do that all the time, inflow only on off-peak? Might be able to with solar and battery!
Ahh, just later in the video, the battery size is not quite enough to prevent all on-peak inflow. Do you have any control that would run the heatpump during off-peak, even if target temperatures are already met? Or you must have already set the domestic hot water heating period during that time.
I'm currently on Octopus Go Faster which has 4hrs of off-peak between 9:30pm to 2:30am this more than the standard Go tariff. It's enough time to charge a home batter and EV. I've also set a slightly higher temperature set point schedule for the ASHP during this period and run a DHW cycle.
Hi Glyn, I have recently stopped full time work after 51 years in HVAC. My last position we had AWHP Range (competitor brand). Really blown away that 5 kW size is adequate for your Application but need to believe the results you have shown. I assume the Samsung model is R410a Refrigerant and has an Inverter Compressor for variable capacity control. (?)
Hi Terry, thanks for your comment. The Samsung unit uses R32 refrigerant with an inverter compressor.
Very interesting. Apologies in advance if you've already answered this but what did you do about condensation from the ASHP or wasn't this an issue with the Samsung unit?
Thanks, the condensation is piped into the nearby drainpipe
Do you know the modulation ratio for your heat pump? Could it be that it can't modulate low enough for a 30 degree flow temp?
Yes, I think this is the issue, at 30C or below there's not enough difference between the flow and return temperature and the compressor cannot modulate down further
@@GlynHudson Let's hope that manufacturers start producing smaller heat pumps and that modulation ratios start to catch up to where gas boilers have got to.
Great monitoring!
One experiment for you:
Is it 35C Vs 30C that's the issue; or use it the minimum compressor frequency/power level that's the issue; with regards the COP hit?
Turning down compressor frequency makes it less efficient. Motor efficiency hit. More losses to internal leakage. Overheads remain similar. Control boards, circulator pumps, fans etc only turn down so low.
I wager the unit would be more efficient at 30C if output power levels were the same.
This is a controls limitation. The Samsung has been configured to "just run" with whatever is thrown at it; instead of forcing cycling operation where this is more efficient.
Homely found similar when working with jez climas Ned Samsung mobobloc. Long and low doesn't always cut it if the heat pump is configured to permit turndown below best efficient point.
Samsung don't provide and detailed performance data or operating point limitations. If you look at the vaillant docs you'll see the cop drop-off at lower outputs; along with quite a high minimum output before cycling. That'll not be as low as the compressor will go. It is as low as it makes sense to go though.
Perhaps there's more merit in Graham Hendra's "Lizzie curve" fudge that we realise! (even if the original purpose of setting a 38C minimum was warm to the touch rads) also adds load compensation control that Samsung controls lack.
Yes, you're probably right about compressor speed. Unfortunately Samsung the Samsung controls are quite limited, I don't have the ability to control the compressor speed. The only time I've been able to make the system run nicely at 30C was re-heating the house was cold after we had been away for a week, at this point the system was having to work harder, so compressor speed would have been higher and emitters were able to dissipate the energy since the rooms were cold.
Jez told me that his 8kW Samsung Gen7 HTQ uses the same compressor as the 14kW HTQ model, therefore this issues at low power are more profound. I love what Homely are doing, HP controls really need to get a lot smarter before they are properly ready for mainstream. They should be able to self optimise the perfect WC curve, Homley seems to be the closes we've got to this. Although, I don't have first-hand experience. I'm aware that my system is not particular normal since I can get away with running 35C even at design temperature, so I run almost a fixed flow temperature.
I've just been reading about the 'Lizzie Curve'! I can understand and sympathise with the reasoning, but I wouldn't recommend that as universal advice, every system and occupants are different, we should aim for the best possible performance, ideally a maximum of 40C at design temperature to make the system economic to run.
Interesting@@GlynHudson
I didn't think the compressors are the same I'm the "8" kW and "14" kW units. More the problem is that these aren't really "8" kW units at all. They're bigger - they would kick out far more heat at modest outdoor temperatures and modest flow temperatures than they are limited to by their software - which is why the turndown appears poor. They appear geared up for continental climates given how far into the double digit negatives they produce the high flow temperatures. Which is fine except winter happens quickly on the continent (drops from low double digits heating off to below zero quite quickly) vs the 10 months of spratutumn we get in the UK. It doesn't matter to a continental if your low power performance sucks because you just don't operate there; whereas in the UK with mild weather and tiny houses even the smallest Gen7 unit is going to be bouncing around in the bottom of the curve.
They look good on the test cycle though. ;-)
On smarts...there are plenty of units out there that already have self optimising weather compensation and indeed load compensation. Even the 2009? Vaillant ecotec sat on my kitchen wall can self optimise weather comp if you so wish.
Homely do bring this to the Asian units that don't have proper heating controls built in. It's only a matter of time before they're all provided with such things though IMO. And a head end system you can pair them to etc. More I think the Homely business will be optimising heat pumps and batteries around time of use tariffs. That's much more geographically specific/local market specific than setting up the heat pump. Which the vendors can do better if they actually wanted to.
What I think you're perhaps seeing is the difference between units designed to avoid callbacks and units designed to operate efficiently.
Those designed to avoid callbacks will "run if it's possible to do so" irrespective of efficiency. (hello Samsung et al; see also instructions that include four pipe buffers etc)
Those designed to operate efficiently risk doing things that create callbacks (refusing to operate at low compressor frequency/with lower than ideal primary flow; generally being more demanding of the installation)
@@GlynHudson 45 at design condition seems to be a sweet spot if you look at:
- the system volume in radiators needed to deliver this
- the minimum turndown at high ambient conditions
You find that you never "run out of radiator and cycle too much" or "can't possibly partially zone the house at higher ambient" if rads are sized at 45C. Whereas you do if you go for 55C.
You also find that the radiators are materially more palatable in dimension than they are at 35C.
Running the house at 19C rather than say 23C is an interesting one to compute.
Radiator temperatures need to be disproportionately higher to deliver that. Your room to outside dT climbs by 4C (+20% heat loss) at the same time as your rad to room dT drops by 4C (so start at 49C to offset this and you'll be north of 55C by the time you've made up for the extra heat loss)
Therefore if design temps are kept to 45C at design condition you also ensure that the property is still usable by 90 year old grandma made only of skin and sinew etc by using the option to bump up to 55C.
Build for 55C at the nominal design condition and the pensioners will be grumpy.
35C is great. But diminishing returns at that point vs say 45C.
The bonus is the heat pump fan blows the oil boiler fumes back across the wall
I wish this was the case, I obviously need a more powerful heatpump 😂
Thank you for your excellent informative video. I’m a total ignoramus where heating and electric are concerned. I’m looking into the new government ECO4 grant that could be worth a lot of money. (They’re offering internal insulation, an ASHP, extra large radiators (I think) and a couple of solar panels (no batteries). And I really can’t work out if it’ll be worth it. I live in a longish welsh stone cottage which is half of the ground floor is under ground. I have a few issues straight away I hope the installation surveyor can address when he visits at the beginning of Jan like - very little room to increase radiator size and siting of the big cylinder as all my ceilings are low. But however good a good ASHP is, how do I know if the cheap ASHP the grant arranges is half that good? A friend had them out a short while ago and it was going to be too difficult to fit and refused to fit saying he’d have to do it himself!😂
Eco4 is a good scheme, it's very generous and the systems are usually well designed. If you go for it push then to design the system with a max flow temperature of 40C it possible. This will probably require some radiator upgrades which they may make you pay a bit toward but will be very worthwhile for long term low running costs. Go for it!
@@GlynHudson you are an absolute star! 🌟 I’ve been sat at home today with no central heating and been perfectly warm, it’s the minus temps I don’t like! 🥶. It’s so hard to get unbiased opinions. Of course the surveyor and sales team will sing its praises and then you have the naysayers where it’s the devils work. So long as it does what it says on the tin it will be great news for me! Thank you very much. Merry Christmas to you and yours and wishing you the best for next Year! Cindy
All anybody wants to know is how much was your electricty bill is per month
Well said but that's at 10:00
At 15:26 it's clear that the unit is in the sunshine. Do you think it makes a positive difference to use what ever radiant solar energy is available (as opposed to putting the unit on a north-facing wall)?
No, I don't think this will make any significant difference to the moving air temperature the unit sees, the most important thing is that the unit can get plenty of air flow
For Ground Source ....... ICAX Thermal Banks store heat between seasons