Can a speaker ever sound like the real thing?
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- You've had the experience when the sound coming about of a speaker starts to sound true? It sounds like the real thing, you know it when you hear it.
Steve's Stereophile As We See it article from 2010, www.stereophil...
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I have a set of OHM 1000 speakers and I’m constantly impressed at the way they reproduce sound, especially piano and acoustic guitar. Many times, I feel like I’m listening to a performance rather than a recording, and that still amazes me after having the speakers about 10 years. My speaker search has ended. The only change I would make is up grading to a larger Ohm speaker in the future
I’m considering a pair of Ohms. But I had my heart set on a tube amp, 42 watts. What to do?
I’d hope that audiophiles take take time to go listen to live music, concerts, and occasionally hire a musician to play an instrument(s) and/or sing in your listening room. It keeps your listening ears humble.
Years ago, working in NYC at a recording studio, The Hit Factory, we were recording a name act singing a duet and laying down the strings. I was just standing around and heard the orchestra start playing and I was like, oh shxx, we're back from lunch already. I turned quickly around where I was, 10 feet from the cello section, and my jaw hit the ground to see that we were not back in yet and what was playing was the track from the morning session, playing through the sound system of the studio. I had to walk over to the speakers which were aboutish 8' off the ground (?), built into the wall and only protruded 5-6 inches. Or 8. It was a while ago... Lot's of room treatments in a band at the speaker level around the room, below, around the room were flat absorbent panels. The speakers were JBL labeled with coaxial drivers, not unlike the Urie 813's but these were 18" drivers and I don't remember what, if anything else was in the box with them. And yes, as Steve mentioned that might play a part, it was one of the bigger rooms at the Studio. I'm a cellist, occasional front of house mixer (Jazz/Classical concerts) and lifelong audiophile. I don't fool easily. There was no opportunity for critical listening, but the experience left me convinced that it is possible to recreate live sound. All you need are custom speakers from a company that was near the top of their game, a large dedicated and treated listening room and the master tapes. :-)
As a singer in a large symphonic choir, I sing with professional orchestras several times every year. I've also been an audiophile for over 40 years. No system I've ever heard - even systems costing well north of $100k - comes close to the sound of a live orchestra.
Can't even recreate the bass snare or metal drum kit tbh.
I agree wholeheartedly. Whilst I don't possess any musical talent and haven't played in any bands,every time I have heard live music,if I try to analyse it in the same way as I would a system,the sound is so much more effortless ,rich,open,dynamic and "present" to a degree that no system has ever managed.At best I tend to think "oh that system sounds nice",but never do I think "oh that sounds real".Where Steve mentioned our ability to sense reality even through a PA system,I think that shows how far many recordings contribute to our perception of reality,or lack thereof. Fewer elements in the chain can help.
Connectability IT Support Toronto Absolutely! I record church audio and video. NONE of the recordings sound like the real thing.
The same here: sing in the concert choir, part of the state symphony orchestra. LIVE will never be approached by any domestic hi-fi system. But it is fun to have a playback system.
Try this test... while listening to your best system, jingle your car keys. The realism of their sound will instantly cut through the artificiality of the music you are playing.
Storytime With Steve...should be a regular feature.
I think it's because the shape of the sound, the 3-dimensional "sound field" created by real instruments (say a grand piano) can never be correctly captured and reproduced by stereo mics and speakers. Mics captures only a snapshot at certain points in space, and speakers reproduce the sound with their own particular sound shape or "sound field" that are completely different to the original instruments'. The brain seem to be very adept at detecting this, and when you add room interactions into account, it becomes even more easier to distinguish.
That said, binaural recording and playback is getting very close to the real thing, provided other qualities like dynamics are good enough.
I've often thought about this. I'm sure people have done it, but it'd be awesome to create a speaker system for say, a jazz piano quartet, where each instrument had its own stereo (or more) channel, and each instrument was reproduced by a separate set of stereo (or more) speakers tailored to each source. So the piano speakers would have the directional characteristics of a piano, same for the drums, etc. The speakers could be placed in the listening space, so you could walk around and each source would stay put. I wonder if that would get us much closer to reality.
In regards to Binaural Sound; I'm in total agreement. I've been experimenting with Binaural Recordings since the JVC era of Binaural Sound of the mid- 70's. With a possible exception, of an Ambisonic recording, also giving a satisfactory result. (I once "shared " a Corn Beef Sandwich with Michael Gerzon @ The Carnegie Deli during the 1986 AES Convention in NYC ! lol ) Presently - Nothing , Yes Nothing can touch Binaural Recordings for capturing a " You Are There Experience". All the More Shame, that Binaural Tracks are Not available as the norm, on any Music Medium. Wake Up ! … Most Music now listened to; is through Headphones of some type: be they Ear Pods / IEMs / Wired and Bluetooth or whatever. The Music Industry ? - "crickets"
You can buy a lot of guitar pedals that will do a pretty good job of reproducing the way a Leslie rotating speaker sounds, but they can't reproduce the way your two ears hear the physical waveform moving across the room in three dimensions from an actual Leslie.
I would agree with you, but that wouldn't jive with Steve's telephone story in the video.
@@burmansound Can't do it with drums.
I don't think sounding like the "real" thing is necessarily the best sound you should be looking for as an audiophile. There are a lot of problems with listening to live music, and you can often get a better experience listening at home, or even through headphones than you necessarily will get at a live performance. Glenn Gould much preferred listening to music at home, and dramatically changed the tonality of his piano playing during production, including splicing together different takes of a single movement. I would prefer to listen to a Gould recording at home over a lesser pianist live, while sitting far away and off to the side in a less than ideal performance space.
Sometimes I wonder how often "Audiophiles" go to proper live concerts...
Exactly.
Jason C. As a Hifi and music enthusiast, I get tired of this age old subject.
Jason C. As a music and Hifi enthusiast, I grow tired of this age old subject.. its nonsensical.
This is an old myth of audiophiles; that they don't see live music, or, the corollary, they are more into the gear than the music.
While there are some of these types of audiophiles, I find that they are in the minority. I interact quite often with members of the LAOCAS, the largest audiophile club in the world. And I not know a single one that does not go see live music. I have seen more than my share of members at the LA Phil on a regular basis, or in jazz clubs, etc.
Most audiophiles, me included, got into audio because the better audio becomes, the closer we can get to the music.
To me a proper live concert is an unamplifed classical concert. I have been to my favorite music hall many times to hear live music and I've worked on my system until it sounds like that.
Wow look at all those glorious CDs. Long live the CD!
Who ever said live music sounded so great? I guess the pursuit started with people who grew up only listening to live music but the majority of us now have heard way more recorded music than live music.
Totally agree, I prefer non-live music like music videos things like that. Studio albums just seem to sound so much better don't care if it's live or not!🙄😬
A live orchestra in a properly treated and engineered concert hall cannot be beaten.
I have been to many live concerts and nothing can compare to a live show. I have seen everyone dating back to the late 60's. I saw the Allman's 4 times with Duane and the Dead many times. You name them and I saw them. I did blow it by not going to the "Band of Gypsy's at the Fillmore East. The Dead had the wall of sound and their sound systems is what everyone else copied. They brought you in and blew you out. I have the first level of audiophile hifi and nothing can compare to a live show.
Garage band rehersals usally sound bad. Live instruments doesn't always mean great sound. Level matching live instruments in small vistas can be problematic.
Excellent video. Here are four things which in my experience contribute significantly to “sounds real”:
1. The speaker's power response (in addition to its on-axis response) should be spectrally correct. This is illustrated by the PA speakers (reinforcing piano and violin) which sounded realistic from afar, as in general PA speakers have considerably smoother power response than cone-n-dome speakers because of their more uniform radiation patterns. Likewise the Altecs in the theater had good power response.
2. The ear is able to hear very deep into the reverberation tails, arguably even down into what we might consider the "noise floor", by recognizing the harmonic structures. This means that the reverberation tails can contribute a lot. This is illustrated by your friend being able to hear room size OVER THE PHONE. Imo this is an argument against overdamped listening rooms, and as well as for otherwise getting the reverberant field right.
3. There is typically a competition between the venue cues on the recording and the venue cues of the listening room, and the ear will pick the most plausible cues to form its impression of acoustic space. The highly unorthodox Snell Type One system had exceptionally benign room interaction characteristics, allowing you to hear "less of the playback room" and therefore “more of the recording venue"... even if the acoustic signature of said "venue" was entirely created by the recording engineer(s). Note that when playing your tapes over the Altecs in the theater, there was no competing "small room signature" from the playback room.
4. Preservation of dynamic contrast also contributes to “sounds real”, and I suspect that, along with the aforementioned absence of “small room signature” and good power response, contributed to the Altecs in the theater sounding so realistic (despite their having mediocre frequency response, by audiophile standards).
Likewise the PA speakers reinforcing that piano and violin probably had minimal thermal compression, and they were probably getting an uncompressed signal.
These aren't the only things that matter of course.
re: point 3: I suspect that the "venue cues" (tiny reverb tails etc.) are extremely difficult to capture and transfer through to the final listener accurately. If you think of a drum strike in a live room and follow just one part of the sound to the wall, where it bounces and scatters into 10 parts, which each bounce and hit other walls / floors / ceiling and scatter into another 10 parts, each time diminishing in volume etc. etc., that reverb signal is probably 100's of thousands of tiny signals and very difficult to preserve and recreate.
I just love how personal you make your videos. you have so much personality and this is a big factor for why I think your reviews are so amazing. Keep doing what you are doing. by the way; love the shirts
Here's what I think.. A speaker is a universal medium. It can simulate any frequency but It will never sound like any "one" instrument because what makes an instrument unique IS its unique resonances. A flat surface like a cone driver can not ever truly reproduce the infinitely complex sound of a three-dimensional instrument.
Resonances is just like any other sounds and can be replicated. Radiation patterns and room interactions is much more difficult to replicate.
@@impuls60 I'm not convinced.. one of the things that makes a grand piano sound like a grand piano is its three dimensional physical structure vibrating and resonating while making sound. It is a depth of sound that a vibrating flat speaker cone literally cannot fully reproduce. You need a cone that is physically shaped like a piano for that and you might as well play a real piano at that point.
@@phetmoz
I do not think so. The shape of the speaker is irrelevant. The speaker only has to recreate the sound waves that the instrument makes including the overtones. This can be done with some instruments, but is difficult with others due to the method of mic-ing and difficulty with making a microphone that has a flat response throughout the audio range. Acoustic Research had some success using a string quartet as a source and also played back and switching between the two. However, I have never heard a reproduction of a Cymbal played back that sounds like a real live cymbal. Many percussion instruments are difficult to reproduce. A piano is a combination string and percussion instrument.
My ear drums seem to do ok, considering they are sooo close to two dimensional
@@peterbronxsidetrack1238 your ears are receivers of sound, not emitters of sound.
There is a difference.
Then when it is recieved, your brain makes sense of it, not the eardrums themselves.
The most 'live' sounding speakers I've heard were the big Maggies powered by a McIntosh amp. Very live sounds come from planar magnetic headphones, too, assuming you've got enough current to drive them to moderate levels.
I just posted a comment about my Maggies and their ability to reproduce a "live" coherent sound. I notice someone else mentioning Quads. All not multiple round driver designs.
When I got my 1.7i a few years back I took them to my son's house. He has a very nice system with AR 9s driven by L-O7M monoblocks. We hooked the Maggies up. Literally seconds later he said he now knows what is wrong with every other speaker system he has heard so far. That multiple source and location smearing of the signal. The Maggies produce this sound field with the musicians suspended in it.
Since you're hearing what the microphone hears. You're not hearing a cello on a recording, you're hearing a recording of a cello.
*Strictly Anecdotal*
A college friend was studying music for a degree in organ performance. He showed several of us a recital organ at Indiana University by playing some Bach and Widor. We were properly amazed, both at the instrument standing over us, the sound washing over us, and his virtuosity.
As an enthusiastic electrical engineering student, I asked him if any of the new electronic concert organs could match that sound. "No," he replied. "All electronic organs sound like they're coming through a big radio."
Our current system of recording and playback can’t sound real, we are using microphones and speakers which rarely operate like our ears and real musical instruments do. We need a new paradigm, otherwise we will just be forever noodling around the edges with incremental improvements in the same old 100- year old tech of mics, amps, and cones.
Very interesting subject, I think it's a bit like trying to make a camera take a picture which looks like reality. The answer surely lies in our own sensory perception, a large part of our senses is dependant on our brain which we don't fully understand, our eyes seem camera like and our brain computer like but the reality is much more complex.
The closest to real life I ever heard was in an audiophile store in San Diego around the late 90s.
I was checking out a pair of electrostatic speakers, Quad ESLs I believe..maybe coupled with subs. They played a jazz recording. I was aghast when I heard high heeled shoes walking from my front-right towards the center. I could hear her step up onto a wooden stage and then the band played, she sang. It was as if invisible ghosts were in the room performing right in front of us!
Of course they had set up a near perfect listening environment. The speakers were well away from the back wall and probably had great acoustic treatment. But I never got over how real those electrostats sounded.
For me it was the KLH Nine electrostatic speaker. I never heard a voice sound real through a stereo till I heard them. I now own a pair of Acoustat full range electrostatic speakers that I bought back in 1980 and they do everything quite well. Never really heard anything better and I used to hear high-end systems all the time as I worked in a high-end stereo store. My boss was always upset that my system sounded better than anything in the store.
@@andershammer9307
An Acoustat experience firmly hooked me into a lifelong pursuit into audio playback quality.
Vic, my salesman, sat me down in front of Audio Research powered Acoustats, left the room ...
I believe I sat there for an entire album side ... entirely blown the f away!
The demo material was some Spanish Guitar w/percussion... oh my, so nice, uncolored, transparent, portraying this 3-dimensional image before me that I'd never experienced.
He returned in time to lift the tonearm and asked me what I thought... I remember trying to be cool, but I was raving about the experience!
I concluded with "play the first piece again only turn it up louder".
Absolutely crushing me ... he told me "that's all there is, these can't really play too much louder"
THAT conundrum of the transparent detailed presentation, yet limited in ultimate dBSPL, has fueled me since the late 70's.
I want it all, and loudspeakers are all about comprises.
@@FOH3663 I think I know the album you heard. It's a direct to disc album called Flamenco Fever and it's maybe the most dynamic record I ever heard. It's on M&K Realtime and sells for over $600 on Ebay. Glad I got mine for $17. It blows away any CD I've heard for dynamics. I burned it on a CDR and used it to demo stereo equipment ant people loved it. I have been listening to Acoustats since 1980 and never really heard anything better. Heard some sound pretty close though like the Sound Labs.
We’re they the 57s. That look sort of like a radiator?
The ones I heard were just panels, black grills I think.
I've heard several systems over the years that have given inklings of the real thing.
One that sticks out, was the flagship Von Schweikert 'Ultra 11' speakers in a big room at the LA Audio show a few years ago.
We went from playing orchestral music, to small jazz ensemble, to a guitar playing singer, and they reproduced each to a very accurate scale, dynamics, timbral correctness, with no dynamic compression.
But all we can really hope for, is a "window" to the original musical event, not a reproduction of the actual musical event. As systems get better and better, the "window" gets larger, cleaner, less distorting, etc, but we can always tell we are perceiving it though a window.
Well that's all very nice but I might think the same when hearing a great or near great audio system. The words very accurate scale, dynamics, timbral correctness, with no dynamic compression never enter my brain when listening to live music and that is the point.......It's live.
@@carlfuggiasco7495 I don't disagree.
I only use those criteria ( accurate scale, dynamics, timbral correctness, with no dynamic compression and others), when I am listening to a new piece of gear, or an unfamiliar system.
Once I am done with my evaluation, I am done listening for those criteria, and I am only interested in, "does this sound like an inkling of real music? Am I able to ignore the fact that I am listening to reproduced music (with all its shortcomings), and just become engrossed and emotionally involved in the music?.
If I can get to the point where the gear gets out of the way of the music, that's what I am looking for.
Believe me, my system, while fairly high end, it does not get near the level of the system with the Von Schweikert I described above. But it does get out of the way and let me listen to the music. The Von Schweikert system just gets way further out of away.
And yes, I never use audio terms when at a live concert, unless it's Rock, and the soundsystem is crap. Why would I use audio terms and criteria when listening to classical at Disney Hall, or other purely acoustic music?
800 diamonds by bowers and Wilkins will get you there trust me.
So can your speaker sound like the Marshall amp speaker. Wow, I think so.
That was good ! My dad is a proffessional singer , And he came over the other day and i played my new Yamaha AS-1100 integrated with my new JBL Studio 580 towers and my dad couldn't believe how accurate the vocals are Mosfets in an amp really help to have that Tube sound crazy goid midrange 😆
DUDE, true story here! Back in the 70's I went to a party in some kids basement. He was playing music through a 4X12 Marshall cab. It was the Allman Bros at the Fillmore! I said, "Right on! The Fillmore Allmans through a 4X12 Marshall!" I don't remember what the amp he had hooked up was though.
eric fischer Interesting. I attended one of those shows and have a number of recordings in various formats. What one heard in the Fillmore East were the Band members playing through various amplifiers which were miked and also fed into a mixing board as well as those sounds run through a fairly sophisticated (for the time) house sound system. One also heard depending upon where in the theater they were seated, sound directly from the amplifiers plus sound from the PA speakers plus ambient “room sound” all of this eventually mixed by a producer sound engineer etc to attempt to recreate the experience of sitting in an optimum seating position in the theater. They did a pretty good job. IMOP. Now you take the recording and run it through your Marshall’s or whatever adding your playback system plus your room etc. So what exactly are you hearing? Good recordings attempt to capture the “sound” or say, a Marshall amplifier
Funny that you had that experience with your friend that was able to hear the differences over the phone. I often hear the differences between systems I like and don’t care for over RUclips . Most people will say that RUclips sound demos are useless, but what the demos seem to be good for is showing the sound of the room the system is in and not necessarily the nuances of the stereo.
@@tee-jaythestereo-bargainph2120 What amp please?
Can a speaker sound like the real thing? YES!!! In many live performances the speaker is the real thing and that is what it sounds like.
Try an intimate live performance utilizing acoustic instruments only.
Wow. This sparked an important realization for me. I was at an electronics convention in the mid-1980s and heard a live acoustic jazz performance behind a curtain in a large space. I walked to the other side of the curtain, only to find that it was a modest-sized Bose stereo system. To my teenage ears, it sounded breathtaking. Steve, you've made me realize that it was likely a combination of the recording being played at a realistic volume and the reverberation of the space that made it sound so real.
‘Is it live or is it Memorex?’ As the advertisement used to say back in the day. The only times I can remember being fooled like that was in large open rooms with large speakers. Horn speakers like the Klipsch Cornwall in a large open room, with a good recording with a lot of space in it will get you close to what your after Steve. But we all want it in our living room from a pair of bookshelf speakers... just ain’t gonna happen. But we can keep trying... the Holy Grail of the audiophile!
Finally a good video from this guy.
Just how many different t-shirts do you own?
I have Klipschorns in a very large room with high ceilings. The soundstage in enormous and at times you really feel its a live concert. My guess is the room size and how sound bounces around, compared to a smaller room and speakers.
“Is it live? Or is it Memorex!” Even experiencing music as it is performed is complex. As Steve illustrates here (I think) a lot can depend upon the listener’s position to the performer(s) and the environments (his and their(s). Sit row one in Carnegie Hall vs row thirty (or the balcony) left, center or right will impact what you hear. Now. How does a recording engineer a producer record the performance? What microphones are used? Then analog and digital conversion, mixing? This is getting complicated. Even before your sound system and your listening environment comes into play. Say the music is amplified. Wow. Hard to determine what is “real?” What is the “true sound” ? This is why we flock to remastered stuff or music remixed from the “original” masters. In essence we are at the mercy of others making myriad decisions leading up to a record, tape, CD, stream whatever. Take the “Stones” ....which is more “real”? What Mick and Keith “ signed off on fifty years ago or what they remaster those songs today? With a likely different perspective? And then how come we have exciting performances on old 78’s we revere? Would they be more exciting if magically re recorded today?
Its the same with RUclips content. Sometimes you can spot good sounding equipment in the videos. Even though you listen through your mobile Phone!
When I was in college (ca. 1972) I visited the modest apartment of an audiophile friend. There, dominating his tiny living room, sat a pair of EV Voice of the Theatre speakers (don't know what model, but my recollection is they were each about 4' high, 30-36"wide and 24"deep). He was listening to a record by a jazz ensemble who's name I don't recall. I still remember the experience like it was yesterday: I could hear the clicking of the trumpet keys, the sounds of the sheet music being shuffled on the music stand. I remember closing my eyes and listening, and hearing the group live, just a few feet behind the speakers, as if in the kitchen. I've never heard anything like it coming out of an audio system. I guess THAT would be MY last set of speakers.
Yes big room and hi efficient speakers .
Steve - Thanks for this video. This is a very interesting discussion of reproduction of the sound of reality. I have given up on recreating live sound in my home system as an ultimately hopeless and expensive quixotic quest. Now, instead, my audio goal is to have a system that sounds good to me, which in large measure means that it lacks artifacts and irritants (e.g., harsh sibilants and boomy bass) while doing a decent job at resolution, dynamics, impact, PRAT, and soundstaging. Perhaps I am no longer an audiophile, but rather, an euphonophile, if I may coin that term.
I had several concert experiences that led me to believe that nothing sounds as real or as good as unamplified acoustic music.
One experience was attending several opera/art music vocal recitals in which no microphones nor PA system were used. Particularly memorable for me was a recital at a medium sized auditorium in Richmond, VA in the mid-1980's in which Leontyne Price sang accompanied by only a piano with no microphones nor PA system. No recording of her voice played back on any audio system that I have ever heard has reproduced either the quality or the quantity of her voice as it filled and pressurized that auditorium. By the way, the audience demanded and she delivered six encores, and she received seven standing ovations that evening.
A second experience was in the late 1980's to mid-1990's when I lived in the DC metro area and subscribed to the Smithsonian Institution's Resident Associates concerts. Most of the jazz concerts in that series were held in the Baird Auditorium and used microphones and a PA system. However, there was one jazz concert in the Baird Auditorium that I particularly recall that did not use microphones nor a PA system. That was a concert by James Dapogny's Chicago Jazz Band. What struck me was that with the microphones and PA system, the performances in the Baird auditorium did sound real and live, but the sound quality, while very good, was not as good as the sound of unamplified instruments, which of course, also sounded real and live. I think this is consistent with your observation that sonic reality and liveness are not just about sound quality.
I also once attended a B.B. King concert at which the PA system played so loudly that the sound was severely distorted - or was that due to my fingers being in my ears as I tried to reduce the pain and preserve my hearing? I can't recall whether or not the instruments sounded real, but the pain was certainly real.
Unfortunately, it seems that the sonic attributes that are necessary and sufficient to reproduce the sense of reality and liveness are currently unknown.
Re: Break on through to the other side ...
I've experienced a set of loudspeakers sounding like a live performance only once.
A pair of vintage Tannoy Eatons driven by quite a powerful push-pull tube amplifier in a space used for intiment concert venues.
At the time, I was at a location that obscured a direct line of sight to the audio source.
Only when a pop came through from the record being played was the illusion broken.
I remember being confused in the moment, and then upset just after.
Been yearning for that moment ever since.
Very interesting vlog Steve. I saw Pink Floyd out doors in the rain. It was the Animals tour. They had the quadraphonic p.a. Gilmore would hold a note and it would sail around the stadium just above our heads. Great, great sound. Our stereos of the time were horrible but we loved them. We didn't expect much. They did not sound real at all. Now in my old age about the only music I can even listen to live and actually enjoy is unamplified. San Antonio has a wonderful acoustic space. The Tobin Center. The symphony sounds perfect. Small scale acoustic music does as well. But amplify it and its suddenly overdriving the space. We saw Tedeschi Trucks at Red Rocks. At first it sounded perfect, being an open air venue. About halfway through they started turning up the volume. By the end I was covering my ears. Maybe it's that the guys at the sound board aren't *audiophiles*. Generally I prefer the sound of my own system to live music.. Sometimes I get surprised and live music sounds great. Usually not. For most of us. I think the illusion of the live event is a matter of scale. It's lot to ask our systems to produce live scale.
If you want reality, use PanAmbiophonics to eliminate crosstalk and get the real room back. Playing my Ambiophonics system with my eyes closed, the boundaries of my room disapear and I'm immediately transported to the studio or hall in wich the recording took place.
Interestingly , at the end of this there are some car horns. In the background clearly on a street outside Steve’s room. A common occurrence, especially in a city. Off in the distance but clear and you can hear an element of reverb (a sense of “reflection” off of other buildings?). There is a palpability to those “car horns”.....even through my etymotis plugged direct into an iPad.
It just shows how much the room itself "plays" a big role in the overall sound. I moved a couple of years ago, from a smaller apartment, too now living in quite a big livingroom (25-30 M2 - square meters), and the change in sound was huge. The reverb of the room itself, make an impact when playback, but somehow i like this more, as now i really can hear into the room were the recording was made, and it sounds for me more "natural" (whatever that means)? ;-) It shows again how important the room is, and how much improvement you can get by room treating. Stay safe..cheers.
As a 40+ year designer of electronic musical instruments that are meant to sound acoustic, I've always been intrigued by how you can tell the difference between a cheap piano and an expensive piano while listing to an AM broadcast over a pocket radio.
The performer’s reaction changes, too! 😉
How about a review of the realistic Mach 1
A system that can give you sounds that seem to come behind you will sound more real. There used to be a device which I have somewhere that would add to the rear sounds. My system does not sound like a live rock band but I did a comparison once between my favorite music hall (Synod hall) and my system and to me the sound was the same.
Recorded music is a construct. RE: your interview with engineer concerning 20 different compression types.
I work from a warehouse and my work hifi always sounds much better than my much more expensive home set up.
No a speaker can never reproduce the sound exactly like the original instrument. Go into a recording room and listen to an incredible drum solo, record it then listen back through a set of studio monitors. It will attempt to do it's best job but it never captures fully all of the impact and micro-details of the source instrument.
Drums is the hardest to reproduce. If you want to get close in the home you need to play back at 120dB! I know, I recorded a single snare rim shot=120dB
@@WWeiss-nv5vz yep and baby grand piano is impossible to reproduce as well.
Steve: Love your stories man! You take me right there, thumbs up, love all your videos, reviews, stories, gear recommendations etc, we appreciate your work man, thank you, keep the videos coming, action! print'em roll'em!
Yes they can sound real. However, most system do not but they do sound good. For most audiophiles that’s good enough.
For a larger sound stage as well as more of a "I am there" feeling and sound, I use a 4 channel stereo system with floor standing speakers up front and stand mount speakers just forward of me on either side pointing at each other. The imaging is great and the soundstage is huge. As far as realism, this setup is only slightly more realistic than just the front speakers as far as instrument reproduction but it definitely makes the room bigger and helps immerse me in the music.
Michael Timmerman that sounds interesting... is that playing all 4 channels, no dsp?
Is it live or is it Memorex? I leaned to the old Maxell metal tapes back in the day personally. I had an old Nachamichi TD 1200II for my car, but never really made best use of it frankly. I digress... I don't think I'm gunning for the most 'live' sound in my home system. Ok, I've just got a receiver and speakers so it's not like I've assembled separates at great expense in pursuit of 'live' sound, but I didn't choose speakers like Klipsch looking for more of that 'live' sound I gather they produce. I do like acoustic recordings and the closer to accurate the better I suppose. I really like studio recordings that make you wonder how they are doing it. I know I sound like a broken record saying this, but I continue to be pretty amazed with DTS Neural X upmix of 2 channel material. Just this morning I was surprised with some Rush 'Witch Hunt' sounding like it was recorded in immersive surround sound. Then I played Rush 'Natural Science' from another album and again it was wild to know that was recorded in 2 channel. I've got like 27 total drivers in 10 speakers now too so that might play a role in a more immersive experience. I played the new NIN albums this week and that was crazy too. So, I guess I'm overall not really going for 'the real thing' as much as a more well rounded to studio recorded sound enjoyment personally. I'm just loving having so much on tap in high rez currently. Acoustic blues, jazz, classic rock, and everything else. It's all good. An actual 'live performance' is a different thing entirely as far as I'm concerned. There's way more drama in attending a live performance if that's what you are asking. There's the energy between you and the artists. I don't really think I could begin to attempt to replay that in a meaningful way although I'm guilty of recording a few on my cellphone that were pretty notable and I do replay those on occasion. No, it's not like being there by a long shot though. More like a photo album memory.
Your speakers can only sound as real as the mics the music was recorded with
I'm sure the "herb" had something to do with your "reality moment"...the problem of "reality" may have more to do with the microphone and recording than the speaker.
As always Steve you bring up interesting questions although in this case I'm not sure that I accept your basic premise. As a record collector turned recording engineer a long time ago , it was my dream to have control over the sound of a record and make them sound the way I wanted them to sound. I don't try to make them sound"real" so much as making them sound hyper real. A certain kind of visceral quality that would have impact whether on speakers at home, speakers in the car or on headphones. For jazz, for instance, it's the first row in the club where the music hits you hardest. Or for pop, somewhere inside your head. We use so many imaginary spaces and twirl them around inside the song that sounding real becomes irrelevant.
Most people could not handle the volume of live venues long before they get overwhelmed with sheer volume..........So to have that at home would not be something I want.I personally go for what sounds good to me which is not the same as real.
Fender Man you get use to it mate; 120dB 12 hours a night multiple days a month. The system was massive in foot print as it was in watts (one would assume) - better on the door 😉 not my taste in ‘music’ disco with good quantities of MDMA one ears deaf and one’s bullsh1t proof
@@m.r.3128 I agree with you...but personally I can't handle loud music.......and live music is loud......So I do the best I can given my situation.
Well we're not there yet, and may not be in my lifetime. In my decades of seeing many live shows (and being in a few rock bands/pit orchestras) most of which sounded good as far as sound quality, and others not so good, part of me couldn't wait to hear the same songs on my stereo, because it sounded better!!!! Did it sound live? No. But it sounded great. It's hard for "live" to compete with a studio perfected album, cd, or whatever. Just too many darn variables in the venue. You can see the same band, doing the same tour in 5 different venues, it will sound different each time. But not at home. Home system always satisfies, because I designed it to my taste. I can control that. Go out and good luck. You are at the whim of many things, some you may not even know exist. So can a speaker sound like the real thing? In a nutshell, I would say no. It's impossible to duplicate everything mechanical, electrical, physical, aural, subconscious, etc that goes on in a live performance. How can you duplicate the sound of a brass section, a percussion section, woodwinds, and strings with a speaker. Nope, it's not happening. So while speakers can sound great, they cannot duplicate everything that is going on at a live performance, which is an interesting thing in and of itself. Is it live if there are microphones, and a PA system, influencing the sound? So when I listen to my stereo (that's what we used to call them - lol) and I have many, I have the expectations that it is not going to sound live, but it's going to sound darn good. And with that, time to play some Doors "Break on Through". Cheers!
Yep you're right, really amazing hi-fi still sounds like hi-fi. No mistaking a live instrument.
Any updates on the Magnepan mini 30.7 prototype speakers? They got a lot of buzz when they were demoed to influencer types, including Mr. G here.
Imagine trying to capture a water balloon exploding with a coffee cup from 3 feet away. That's what you are doing when recording an instrument with a microphone. The instrument is throwing out a sphere of sound in ALL directions..... and the sound is different in every direction. And all those different sounds are interacting with the environment. How would you expect that microphone to pickup the actual sound of that instrument? Then on playback... you play back on a loudspeaker that is certainly NOT omni-directional. Even if it was (like an Ohm) .... you are only feeding it that 1% perspective that the microphone had. I think the fact that stereo sounds as amazing as it does, is a miracle....... and i'm not complaining!
It doesn't sound live because it's not. No different than waiting for video to reproduce reality. It won't, it can't, it never will. Enjoy live music.
Matters how you look at it. If you listen to rock music and its played live through a PA and that's how its supposed to sound... Then yes. Other types of music like classical are a lot harder to reproduce to sound like being in a venue hearing it played live. In many ways rock music sounds probably better from a recording than it could be live due to so many factors.
Back in school in 1980 or so, a room mate brought a set of STAX HEADPHONES he had gotten for Christmas. We put on THE DIREC TO DISC DARK SIDE OF THE MOON.
To this day, I have never felt such musical amazement..
There's no way a speaker system can produce the same soundwave that an instrument does. There's no way to even capture the wave without variation and distortion.
I think there is no speaker that sounds so good that you think that you are acually there and hearing the real instruments. Every instrument has its own physical sound, generated by combinations of sorts of material, build-concept, how it's placed in the room, how it's played. No speaker covers all those facts from every instrument you listen to.
Nope. End of story. It's not physically possible.
You can get great natural sound but never close to real sound from more than one source ie, you can replicate the sound from a dual channel electric guitar from Stereo speakers. But once you add more Chanel's, sources and waves it becomes far too much
I’m years too late for this, but here goes! I agree entirely that the effect of the hall is missing, particularly for symphonic music. There’s as much information hitting your ears from behind as there is from the front and it will be delayed and probably out of phase. Two or three speakers in front of you can’t emulate this. But could you do it with recordings dedicated to using with earphones? Record the sound with a dummy head with two microphones to replace the ears. Send it to the listener by whatever means and they listen using earphones. Wouldn’t this recreate the ‘hall’ effect? Of course, it might sound dreadful played through speakers!
Yes the real thing Tannoy D700 the only speakers did the real thing TANNOY D700 SPEAKERS
a quick comment on your language -- a lot of "word smiths" become so taken by their artistic word skills they lose track whatever they were attempting to describe / --- You Cisco, have a gift of both sound and language --- perhaps a synesthesia/ maybe -- in any event / much appreciated
My wife, the quilt maker, says she loves ALL of your shirts, and fantasizes about raiding your closet. This is GREAT for me! While she's drooling over your shirts she's actually being subjected to a wonderful brainwashing :):):). So, about a week or so ago when I was viewing your Klipsch RP-600M review (AGAIN!), I causally said out loud, "I should probably try those out." And she said, "YEAH! Why don't you?!" Well, just knock me over with a feather! I mean, we have NO room! None. We came here to Germany in 2014 to start caring for her elderly and ailing parents, and we're living in the one bedroom mother-in-law apartment...after having lived in a very big home back in the states. Yet, here she is agreeing to stuff in some more crap. WOW! You're still a real salesman Steve-O. :)
Reality is just that. We can fool ourselves at times, but there is nothing like reality. It’s just plain Physics,
my friend. 👨🏻
I adjust my expectations accordingly. That’s what everyone else should do! 😉
Regarding the subjective experience of a film surround sound audio system. I once attended a performance of the NY Philharmonic being conducted by John Williams. The climax of that performance was a segment of Williams’ score for the film E.T., being played by the orchestra while a large drop-down movie screen behind the the musicians simultaneously showed the final 10- minutes of the film. It was magic. I completely forgot awareness that the score was being performed live, and was emotionally pulled further in to the film on the screen via the musical performance.
There was nothing in the live performance to distract from, or to otherwise pull my attention away from the visual story on the screen. No dynamic limitations, or distortion, or artificial sounding tonal coloration. None of the unpleasant things which can indicate that the music was being reproduced , yet at the same time, none of the pleasant characteristics (in a multi-channel hi-fi sort of way) which can indicate that the performance was live either. While the live musicians, and the sound they were producing disappeared from conscious awareness, they simultaneously increased my emotional involvement in the story on screen.
So, I concur, that surround sound which has the intention of being noticed, of overtly justifying its existence, of being an effect for effect’s sake, is the wrong objective. From my above experience, I’d feel that the right objective is to produce sound, surround or not, which emotionally pulls the film viewer in to the story without their being consciously aware of that occurring.
Once...2 Quad's stacked with a (JBL ?) Horn tweeter in between and 2 subs, 2 15" (JBL) on each side.
It sounded close to real :)
Love the killer names on the theater Marquee;
THOSE WHO FEEL THE FIRE
POLYFACES
GENITAL WARRIORS
TRANSFATTY LIVES
kick ass!🤟
Back in the 60's/early 70's Acoustic Research did many live vs recorded public demonstrations. Listeners could not reliably determine when the music changed from live players to recorded. TBF, this was most often with a string quartet so there wasn't an extreme range of frequencies/volume but still, if that could be done in the 1960's, one would expect it to be no problem at all now with modern speakers/amplifiers, recording equipment.
Hi Steve. In your 40 plus years as an audiophiliac what speaker beats the ohm walsh 1000 and 2000 etc. overall. Save dynamics that can fool a person more, so to speak of course to sounding like being there,as the title of the ohm walsh videos are named. Remember energizing a room,imaging regardless of listening position.etc
I think what distinguishes live from recorded music is DYNAMIC RANGE. When I am walking by a house with someone playing a piano or organ when the windows are open, especially, it is very apparent which is which. It's the contrast between the quiet notes and the loudest ones. A recording can't normally do that.
Define "real". My vinyl based 1.7i Maggies can produce what I would call accurate or "real" sounds when the source is there. e.g. I bought the "Yardbird's '68" special release box set. While the record is dead quite, the recording sounds exactly like I would expect a half track simple mic'd live recording from back then would sound if I was there during the recording. The fidelity of the performERS was fair at best. But the fidelity of the performANCE is exactly what I would expect it to sound like! My system was accurately reproducing the sound of a half track analog tape deck of the time. And that is the problem with all tape sourced albums.
Then there are direct discs like the "Charley Byrd" 45 RPM disc or "Boiling Point" a Toshiba disc. Close your eyes and get some "face time". Where you can visualize a human face from the sound. Almost see their tonsils.
And this is where I find the line between analog and digital to be extreme. Especially when sticking to Red Book at best there is a timing shift as frequencies increase that stops that coherence of sound timing. I can show it graphically. And the Sony engineers that were on the PCM design team verified my observation at a Nashville AES meeting about it. The reason digital can not produce a time coherent sound and loses that depth detail because of it.
Hi Steve I love the show. Im transiting in getting a whole new rig. But im noticing in my city (Toronto, Canada) im being limited. Im looking in spending around 2500 Canadian dollars. & getting very confused. Im thinking tube amplifier & speakers. I know u might not comment back cause u can't answer everyone but doesn't hurt to try. Since ur my favorite reviewer! But all good keep inspiring us. Thank you
Clapton Playing Layla Live Unplugged sounds better than a Blind Faith Album.
It all depends on The Recording.
If the recording is Crap, so is the playback.
Most Music Only Recordings are Crap compared to Music on Movie Disc
Mr. Guttemberg, I have to confess something: I generally hate videos themed on what I call a "talking head", a face talking without showing the object of my interest.
BUT, it's completely different with your videos, not only because they are dense in matter but also because of the genuine enthusiasm with which you present them!
It always seems to me like that conversation with a very wise and much loved teacher after class with a lot of attention.
Thank you for that.
Greetings from Brazil.
Hey Steve,it is possible to create lifelike sound in your home (provided you have the space!) Large horn loaded speakers need space! There tends to be some serious room anomaly issues those type speakers without room treatment.(people waste their money on big speakers in small rooms) low frequency waves are long and need space! I designed and built a pair of 6.5in. two ways that that recreate the realism and immediacy of a live performance in a smaller room.(took me two years and lots of money spent on the highest end drivers available in the the early 2000's.(scanspeak,dynaudio,focal,vifa,seas,Eton,etc...) The pricey drivers sounded the worst! All focused on bass performance,rather than seamless mid-range transition to the tweeter! Goal: to reproduce the transparency of Quad Esl 57's with the impact and speed of Pro Audio speakers.i have upgraded some vintage Klipsch Heritage's and very happy with the results.a good friend who designs tube amp and refinished ESL 57's laughed at me initially until he heard them! He stayed at my house for 4hrs. listening.
Not relevant in my world. Lifelong drummer, audio enthusiast since my grandfather gave me a Magnavox transistor radio. It's always music first priority in my world. A great performance even if preserved in a weak recording, beats weak "music" recorded expertly. Do I wish my favorite Grateful Dead recordings, audience tapes made by passionate amateurs, were better? Same for all my favorite historical Blues recordings. Acoustic records (recorded and played back without electricity) have a presence that modern electrical recordings can't touch. Don't tell me about noise or frequency response, these are like a window into the past. Look at a picture of an apple. Now eat an actual apple. Now we're close. Digital is like fluorescent lights or ugh LEDs. Vinyl and tape are like incandescent bulbs. Acoustic records own the coveted candlelight position.
I find multichannel audio very unrealistic, binaural stereo sounds more real than any 7.1, Atmos or DTS... don't get me wrong I love multichannel, It's super fun, but It's not real at all!! It's a gimmick.
A long time ago I had a matrix decoder. I had a fairly large listening room. I had tri-amped JBL 4343 speakers in the front and ADC 450A speakers in the rear. I adjusted the rear channels to not be almost unnoticeable. The sound was pretty darned good. Eventually something went wrong with the decoder and I abandoned the rear channels. Sometimes I still miss them.
I apologize if this isn't the correct place to post this. New to Audiophile and I listen to vinyl. Would like a simple set up turntable and tube amp and preamp if needed that's a decent quality. I have a pair of Energy CB-20 speakers now. Thank You
This is such a ridiculous topic. You're talking physics. The cavity of a grand piano sounding board is shaped nothing like the cavity of a speaker, let alone the free air resonance of 88 individual strings and the room it's played in. If you recorded a Marshall 4x12 guitar cab, yes it would sound different from the studio monitor. But if you played that track back through the same 4x12 cab, it would sound almost identical.
A speaker can not and will not ever sound like the real thing, and it simply does not need to. It just converts an electric signal into sound waves, it vibrates the air particles and that's it. If you think it plays music you are wrong. It only gives us AN OPPORTUNITY to hear music. The most important transducer in this system is ourselves. WE convert waves into music. And that is exactly why some of us don't really need an expensive hi-fi to fully enjoy and deeply comprehend music and others do not even understand that it is music (just try avant-garde), even it is reproduced by a perfectly set and well balanced hi-end system. All I am tying to say is a maximalist question like that is purely audiophiliac and technical and has nothing to do with music. Problem is there are people, and I have met some, who truly believe that if they throw another 10 grand at their hi-fi, they will enjoy the music more. The truth is - the space for improvement lies elsewhere, namely in ourselves. I hope, it was clear enough, English is not my language. BTW, have noticed that the illusion of a "real thing" or of "being there" only has a chance to appear if you really love and "get" the music played, and if you don't, whatever the system and sound quality, that feeling evades you.
I hope the epidemic go away so that I can go to concerts to listen to real music.
I have a modest setup, but I love it. (emotiva airmotive 4s + chord mojo) I feel I get 'closer' to breaking through the more I am able to relax and be mindful of the music. I suspect there is a paradox in there because a LOT of audiophile listen critically, not mindfully. And I find that some DACs present in a way that makes it easier to be mindful. This, like so much else in this hobby, it likely subjective.
To me, it’s like this, if the soundstage is good and the sound is pleasant, then it’s good. I’m other words subjective.
The rest is, at least for me relativ. Take a piano. You play it on that brand and it sounds this way. Play it on another and it sounds different again. Much more significant is it when we look at electrical instruments. There we have distortion as well. Often that’s aimed for sometimes it’s not. Or the guy at the mixing board had an off-day.
Live is different again… Is it indoors, is it outdoors? Soothe location changes the sound on top of the hooked up amps and wires and and and.
Correct me if I’m wrong. Cos I might well be.
Steve,Chris Picquet here again.i forgot to mention that I had a pair Peter Snell's type 1 loudspeakers.the most bizzare things I ever saw,but great sounding! I still have the type 1 crossovers.cabints and reflector tongue on bottom were really beat up.great speakers,eloborate crossovers.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention binaural recordings over headphones. The first time I heard one of those I was seriously impressed. Still am, actually. But as you say, it’s still possible to get a better sense of “actually live” through a phone (despite which none of my iPhone bootlegs have ever sounded anything but crap)
A little late to the party and long time viewer but recent subscriber. To Steve, very good piece and I want to add an angle that you made me think of while I listened to your KEF LS50 Meta review. In that review, you were very impressed by how the Meta sounded like an open back speaker such as the Magnapan, and other similarly constructed speakers, which have an open sound because of the nature of their construction. You were very impressed that the Meta exuded the same "sound" beyond the rear of the Meta even though it is a closed cabinet. Well, my system amounts to a low budget system today but it now sounds exceptional to me now because you made me think to turn around the top speaker, away from me, and face the top speakers towards a hard surface so that the sound could reverberate and create space and a broader soundstage. To be clear, I have the Triangle BRO3 and B&W DM600 speakers stacked atop 44" tall tower speaker cabinets that are not hooked up. The Triangles are also turned upside down so the tweeter is closer to height of my ears in a sitting position. So when you made the comment about sound coming out of the back of the open construction speakers, I decided to turn the DM600's to the rear and towards angled hard surfaces. It worked. Gracious, it is now even smoother, is clearer spatially with what I think is a wide soundstage that has depth. I'm sure this has been tried before, I just haven't heard it mentioned. Just wanted to share that approach.
Yes the first time I experienced breath taking sound was in a Audio room, they were playing Jurassic park in dolby Prologic and I was watching it and it got to a scene were the T Rex pocked his head in a room and did a little growl and I remember the hairs on my neck stood up and I thought wow and from that day as they say I have been hooked on quality sound films and music. I like your reviews and vids.
Electronic classical organ manufacturers continue to try to accomplish this, making samples of real instruments sound as true to the real thing as possible. You should check out the technology of the Allen Organ company in Pennsylvania. They also design and manufacture their own speaker drivers and cabinets, and implement technologies based on "sampled acoustics". It seems like the museum you were in coloured the sound and made the PA seem like it wasn't there until you got close.
Surely the relative distance and strength of the sound would have helped you detect that it wasn’t purely instruments? (Sounds like 20’ away but you can see the sound source is over 40’ away?) I always know my hifi is working well when soundstaging is intact even when heard from adjoining room, since I noticed it a long time ago, it’s now something I always check for. Staring at it from the sweet spot is sometimes not as easy, you’re hearing a lot more of the room there...
This has long intrigued me. The telephone issue doesn't surprise me since the reflections of the space are well within the bandwidth of a telephone line but the other things.... I think in part it's what I call the launch factor, rise time, whatever. I also think unrestrained dynamics within the dynamic envelope make a lot of difference. Beyond that I've no idea. I've had things sound shockingly right in conditions that should be terrible but don't know why. My substantial system is great but sometimes I almost wonder if we're chasing the wrong things or something. It's like it gives us these cool substitute pleasures but not the real core. Obviously I don't know.
I think the importance of "mood" is underestimated. Some days my system will sound absolutely "real" and other days it will just sound like a couple of speakers. Also, the quality of the recording is critical; not the bit depth but rather the actual quality of the recording.
I would say it happens a lot with my DALI Rubicon 8 speakers. For the most part due to the high fidelity and gigantic sound stage. I hear sounds so real I think there's someone standing in my hallway making the sounds. And if it's a good audiophile recording it's very close to the real thing. Elements of the music are absolutely as they are in real life.
I went to a live performance of a famous pianist playing on a huge Bösendorfer.
It turned out to be amplified through the hall's PA system. MP3 + earbuds on a mediocre phone sound better :-(
Gone is the liveliness, gone is the sense of direction, gone is the Bösendorfer sound, gone is the timing (you hear everything several times from several speakers + the piano).
Unbelievable that the performer or his representatives ever agreed with this.
So this time I had to go home, listen to my stereo to come a lot closer to live performance...
Just before lockdown - I did get to listen to the opening track of Kind if Blue “so What” from a vinyl sourced played thru the new Michi pre amp and 2 Michi power mon blocks - into B&W 803s - now iv sat in bands and herd trumpet players up close - and this was an eerie experience- but still not quiet right as it picks up what the microphone herd and not what I hear normally - you never really want to get that close to a trumpet
Yes at CES with the MBL extreme omnidirectional system. It was very very good.
Dirt cheap or obscenely expensive, all speakers have their own version of reality. The same goes with microphones. Why not just enjoy the music?
Who says you can't do both, be analytical about it but still enjoy it for what it is.
@@davidpiscopo3774 Highly unlikely that you enjoy it when you're being analytical. Don't fool yourself too much.
Simple, because if the music doesn't sound as it did the day before when I heard it being played Live, then it simply isn't as enjoyable. So enjoy it I shall, but not as much as yesterday!