Hey guys! Just letting everyone know that just because it's been featured in the video it does NOT mean it's final. Hindsight is 20/20, and some of you guys may come up with valid arguments and counters I hadn't considered. So I'll try and include a small segment next video of potential changes we have made since last. That said, I also wanna do a bit of reflection on some of the aspects of this video. I completely disregarded Etti's AA damage. Now this is mostly relevant in the context of how she fairs against no AC Luvia (I think after factoring in AA damage and expecting let's say 1x info proc), it's probably very fair to say Etti S0 = No AC Luvia, assuming this additional Etti damage is around 15k. Similarly then, S1 Etti can probably reasonably be put above No AC Luvia, though still very comparable. Though, remember we are still assuming insta max stacks ECB for Etti, and we have 5 seconds of ECB / 2 seconds of Overload unaccounted for with Luvia. Additionally, for reasons we are gonna explore in future videos, there are STILL real arguments for Luvia > S1 Etti. But we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Also, remember. I'm just presenting the Shackled Etti data, I'm not ranking it. Naturally, once we factor in the AC, Etti stands no real chance, AA damage or not. I also think I should have spend more time exploring Last Stand Etti, but remember, this is why Base Contribution measurements are great! We know Etti base contribution (accounting for AAs & +1 info proc this time) we can reasonably put S0 Etti at 100k (Gem 130k), where she still faces Luvia's 170k through AC. Both of them get Last Stand bonus, there is simply no way Etti is catching up even though she is getting the full 75% DMG bonus from Last Stand (at least I think Last Stand and her ECB are different increases). Alright, that's all. Thanks for watching. And let's hope I can be more concise in future videos. Oh! I also wanna note the 130k for S0 Shalom is most likely also a bit off, and is PROBABLY (need to find a S0) closer to 150k. It doesn't really change anything in the video, but thought I would mention it nonetheless
Very useful video! This and your AC guide have really helped me with theoretical and practical ways to play my Luvia Ray and co. I especially appreciate the detailed evidence and clear thought processes you use to reach your conclusions, and your openness to change your conclusions if presented with new evidence. Thanks for your efforts!
Great content, dropped a like and a subscription. Could you make something like this just for TOA? Since it is one of the most anticipated events (and it’s coming soon) it would be great.
I might do that! I unfortunately slacced off hard on the tests I did last ToA... Demon Shield Stack team just made me feel like it was kind of pointless to test out sinners : ( But I should still have some data, and of course, I could probably talk quite a lot about team compositions.
I think micro floor/ceiling definitely should be considered in tier lists. But people are exaggerating Luvia's micro. If both Deren and Dreya is generally accepted as T0, I don't see why Luvia isn't also a T0.
I haven't realised this before in my own gameplay, but I have to agree with your points regarding Eirene. As a main DPS, she's awful. She's not good enough to take care of the boss by herself nor is she a reliable wave clearer. She truly is more of a support or a sub-DPS in a magic team and she needs the damage amp from other supports like Enfer, Hamel and Raven/Hecate to pump out big numbers because it's difficult for her to perform well on her own. Even then you could argue Raven adds more value as a sub-DPS. Usually someone like Serpent or Luvia or both of them are responsible for killing the boss. Most of her value in BFL comes from her passive 2 and doing that additional little bit of nuke damage to help finish off the boss or something like that.
I'm not sure what that entails or how I would go about doing that, but sounds fun! We might see if we can get a livestream up and running at the end of this list, where we can have like an open discussion. Might be fun!
1 hour in, doesn't even get to Pacassi and Lamia. :truthstatue: Not to encourage even longer vids....but I think you're focusing too much on the easily mathable single target vacuum damage contribution, rather than the real world map based playmaking potential. Vic's mediocre single target break mode damage is offset by her tile aoe regular attack, her rapid self damage and healing to quickly get her ramp up, and of course, aoe ability to just wipe the whole DZ stage at once by herself if routing allows, allowing Vic teams to afford more anti-bossing units like amps. Also, 40 s0 Etti ult hits isn't unreasonable at all. Piano empower and precast tech lets 4 ults be fairly standard, needing only 1 stalled or freshly spawned elite for the 6th empower. In addition to AC'ing Etti during break, and waiting on casting her final ult to essentially get 2 hits per proc due to getting stacks for her last ult, so only 2 procs is needed for 40. s1 can expect 50+. I don't think anyone else actually plays her that way though, so I still have no idea what they're on about when they say she does more than Luvia! That said I don't disagree with the order at all, especially when considering all the stars that need to line up in a map for Etti's so called "max potential". But having them a tier below Eirene....you're gonna have to make another 4 or 5 tiers later down the line to accurately portray how bad Oliver is whenever you get to him. =P
@@TheRubyPanda 6th empower would be the fourth. Precast before break, empower back up to full, break boss and a collateral elite. Voila, 1 ult coming down, sitting on 1 full ult and 5 empower charges at break mode start. Find 1 more before break mode ends, and that's a 4th ult. But yeah, it's gonna be map dependent. Nothing's gonna save Etti during mp drought on something like last season's hyperbeast. 2 procs would be 2 celestial bodies from the procs themselves, in addition to 4th ult getting stacked to 10 hits for a total of 40. I was more thinking Vic and Etti would join Eirene's tier, or at least just Vic, depending on how much investment cost counts towards their performance. I think an issue with assuming "max potential" is PtN's very much a game where if you max out any remotely decent unit....anything you do is gonna be winning anyways, and whichever one does more or less damage is just differentiating mate in 3 being objectively better than mate in 4, but ultimately makes no difference. But that's just my personal opinion of how units should be rated....since BFL technically isn't a matter of doing more or less break mode damage, only whether or not they will deal enough to secure the 240k, as boss hp is finite. In that sense, if we're not counting return on investment, I'd actually personally put s1 Etti in top tier with Luvia regardless of doing less damage, just based on her ability to consistently do enough.
@@BoswerLK Right, I think I was just confused since that technically doesn't work this season, since Boss only gives 2x charges. Meaning initial free ulti (1), start Empowers (2), Boss + 1 Elite (3), Last 2 Elites -> No extra ulti (unless you can double break the Elites?). But yeah, I see what you mean. Good thing I went that high in the calcs then! I think Vic is the only one who stands a chance of joining Eirene. Ultimately, I'm not too worried about differentiating between levels of bad, like ranking Oliver Vs Ignis in BFL, moreso that I'm interested in "rewarding" Ignis for her RoD performance down the line (Hence why the tier list is structured from general / dominates BFL to specific / borderline useless), otherwise it would just be a BFL tier list instead of a "general" *shivers* one. It comes back to Base Contribution and Meaningful Contribution, basically is Victoria the reason I go from mate in 4 to mate in 3? Or is she the reason I have the mate in 4 at all? I think if she needs to join Eirene, she needs to do so on the basis of doing "well" across all 3 modes. It's true that this season Victoria's AOE capabilities are hugely welcome since the last wave of adds intersect with the boss usually in break state. However looking at DZ historically, this is by no means a guarantee. I kind of just think the current "meta" options are too oppressive, which usually pushes Victoria into 3rd build territory. And at that stage, Victoria *is* really simply the reason you go from mate in 4 to 3, and generally building something like Eirene with her Mania Training cheesing (as rare as it is) / EX stage story performance, in addition to the support across game modes is preferable. I wouldn't fault anyone for putting Victoria Queen tier though, I guess after Shalom, it's not like Serpent is easy to acquire. So you are still stuck with Luvia and her typically lackluster wave clear. It's a rough one for sure, I don't think I would say she quite gets there. Hm... Eh, who knows, I could see myself changing her ranking in a future episode, maybe once we see how she fairs against Ignis who probably has similar arguments going for her in terms of AOE compensating for lacklustre Single Target damage (but again, remember, 3 seasons something like Victoria's AOE never really came into play). I did mention this for Victoria, but I felt it equaled out with Etti's superior bossing, which let's *her* team bring more anti-mobbing options like amp, or simply free up something like Luvia quicker. And I fully agree BFL isn't about break damage, it's about 240k'ing. But measuring pre-break contribution is much harder, and admittedly something I wish I could actually present data for the same way I do break damage, and I think that's also an issue with most of the Arcane, the lack of pre-break contribution. Naturally, if you have Shalom or Serpent they can pretty much handle the pre-break requirements by themselves, but it's still something I think is meaningful to consider. Which is also why (and slight teaser for probably next episode), I still think there needs to be space for someone like Lamia as well, for *certainly* does well in BFL (through Luvia) and amazingly in Story / Mania. "General" tier lists are hard man : (
@@TheRubyPanda Eh, actually I don't think Vic would even make 3rd build in the meta sense. I think she's strictly "never build" if we're talking about effective progress. Regardless of her decent performance across all content, she just doesn't offer neither the unique nor game breaking perks that Eirene gets. It's more a sense of if someone really wanted to main an empower nuker as a playstyle preference, Vic's a really strong candidate with her high availability and "almost good enough" contributions, and is relatively capable of being the team's reason to have M4 at all. Synergizing poorly with last stand when Luvia's free and top tier kinda just ruins any chance of actually recommending her when they could be filling the extra slots with Lamia or economy amps as placeholders instead, or Joan who offers similar contributions and better last stand synergy in a Luvia team.
-I wonder how this tier list is going to work once you get to the bro's LOL -100% agree on Etti's mediocrity. This is the one unit I regret building. There's just no use for Etti outside of BFL. She's got one instance of magic burst and then nothing. And even then, you've clearly demonstrated there are much better options for magic burst than Etti in BFL. Brings zero mobbing and/or utility to a team -I found your rant on Ac'ing to be quite funny lol. I don't think you had to justify why AC was necessary for Luvia's position. Most tier list assume that your playing a character to their max potential and place characters in their respective tiers regardless of execution. For example, in fighting games, characters are placed in their tiers regardless of execution (like Mishima's, in every Tekken except BR, are always top tier even though they usually have the highest execution barrier). But PTN's not a fighting game so maybe a bad comparison. Anyways, I would assume most people know that some top tier's are going to have an execution requirement to them. If anything, if you were factoring ease of use into your tier list, you could always squeeze her in Queen and you'd get the point across that Luvia's still a terrific character As far as future episodes, I thought this episode was fine. This format of talking in-depth about the hotly contested characters, while glancing over the obvious placements was fine. (Like tackling the Pricilla vs Flora debate, or whether demo deserves to be s with his shield stack team when dreya can be s with her bleed team etc) Great analysis, and looking forward to future episodes
Don't worry, Demon is the most beautiful Princess of them all obv! Yup, I fully agree most tier lists should assume that you're playing a character to the max! I just get worried because that technically means I should always assume you reset for Etti gem, and when we get to a sinner like Corso, that you reset until you have 3x Knives xD But yeah, I fully agree that Luvia Ray should always be considered through her AC potential, and once you do she can pretty much only be Goddess / Queen (considering I think she is probably the only thing close to S0 Deren (?)) which we are going to cover. *just wait till you see the Pricilla AC we are totally gonna be talking about xD* Thank you for the feedback btw!
Hey guys! Just letting everyone know that just because it's been featured in the video it does NOT mean it's final. Hindsight is 20/20, and some of you guys may come up with valid arguments and counters I hadn't considered. So I'll try and include a small segment next video of potential changes we have made since last.
That said, I also wanna do a bit of reflection on some of the aspects of this video.
I completely disregarded Etti's AA damage. Now this is mostly relevant in the context of how she fairs against no AC Luvia (I think after factoring in AA damage and expecting let's say 1x info proc), it's probably very fair to say Etti S0 = No AC Luvia, assuming this additional Etti damage is around 15k. Similarly then, S1 Etti can probably reasonably be put above No AC Luvia, though still very comparable. Though, remember we are still assuming insta max stacks ECB for Etti, and we have 5 seconds of ECB / 2 seconds of Overload unaccounted for with Luvia. Additionally, for reasons we are gonna explore in future videos, there are STILL real arguments for Luvia > S1 Etti. But we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Also, remember. I'm just presenting the Shackled Etti data, I'm not ranking it.
Naturally, once we factor in the AC, Etti stands no real chance, AA damage or not.
I also think I should have spend more time exploring Last Stand Etti, but remember, this is why Base Contribution measurements are great! We know Etti base contribution (accounting for AAs & +1 info proc this time) we can reasonably put S0 Etti at 100k (Gem 130k), where she still faces Luvia's 170k through AC. Both of them get Last Stand bonus, there is simply no way Etti is catching up even though she is getting the full 75% DMG bonus from Last Stand (at least I think Last Stand and her ECB are different increases).
Alright, that's all. Thanks for watching. And let's hope I can be more concise in future videos.
Oh! I also wanna note the 130k for S0 Shalom is most likely also a bit off, and is PROBABLY (need to find a S0) closer to 150k. It doesn't really change anything in the video, but thought I would mention it nonetheless
An incredibly comprehensive look at the meta of PtN, would love to see more.
Awesome, super informative video, thank you!
Nice vid as always man. I've been watching your vids on the early days of ptn. Glad to see you're still around haha
very comprehensive and informative. top tier material we all need
Very useful video! This and your AC guide have really helped me with theoretical and practical ways to play my Luvia Ray and co. I especially appreciate the detailed evidence and clear thought processes you use to reach your conclusions, and your openness to change your conclusions if presented with new evidence. Thanks for your efforts!
Thank you so much! Knowing that it has helped people like this is really what makes it worth it
A very comprehensive work out there, Ruby. I would love to watch more of this. More power and success to you and your channel. - Inverse
Thank you very much! Much love
My popcorn is ready :D Banger vid as always, Ruby :3c
Second to witness the making of history.
Nice video mate can't wait for part 2. For how to make it better maybe edit out some filler moments would be nice!
I'll try xD But I'm not sure what even constitutes as filler though ;-;
Great content, dropped a like and a subscription. Could you make something like this just for TOA? Since it is one of the most anticipated events (and it’s coming soon) it would be great.
I might do that! I unfortunately slacced off hard on the tests I did last ToA... Demon Shield Stack team just made me feel like it was kind of pointless to test out sinners : ( But I should still have some data, and of course, I could probably talk quite a lot about team compositions.
I think micro floor/ceiling definitely should be considered in tier lists. But people are exaggerating Luvia's micro. If both Deren and Dreya is generally accepted as T0, I don't see why Luvia isn't also a T0.
I haven't realised this before in my own gameplay, but I have to agree with your points regarding Eirene. As a main DPS, she's awful. She's not good enough to take care of the boss by herself nor is she a reliable wave clearer. She truly is more of a support or a sub-DPS in a magic team and she needs the damage amp from other supports like Enfer, Hamel and Raven/Hecate to pump out big numbers because it's difficult for her to perform well on her own. Even then you could argue Raven adds more value as a sub-DPS. Usually someone like Serpent or Luvia or both of them are responsible for killing the boss. Most of her value in BFL comes from her passive 2 and doing that additional little bit of nuke damage to help finish off the boss or something like that.
I was here when history was made.
Top tier content
Would rank at the top of the ptn video tier list
You flatter me >.<
Lets fucking gooo, the video is out
Part 1? Dammm. U should make a podcast too
I'm not sure what that entails or how I would go about doing that, but sounds fun! We might see if we can get a livestream up and running at the end of this list, where we can have like an open discussion. Might be fun!
will this appear in the ToA test ?
Don't worry! ToA is a completely other beast :3c
In a ToA context, Etti would simply dominate Luvia for instance.
Hi thx for the tier list
Thanks for watching!
Oh hey its The Ruby Panda
Oh hey its Elat!
1 hour in, doesn't even get to Pacassi and Lamia. :truthstatue:
Not to encourage even longer vids....but I think you're focusing too much on the easily mathable single target vacuum damage contribution, rather than the real world map based playmaking potential. Vic's mediocre single target break mode damage is offset by her tile aoe regular attack, her rapid self damage and healing to quickly get her ramp up, and of course, aoe ability to just wipe the whole DZ stage at once by herself if routing allows, allowing Vic teams to afford more anti-bossing units like amps. Also, 40 s0 Etti ult hits isn't unreasonable at all. Piano empower and precast tech lets 4 ults be fairly standard, needing only 1 stalled or freshly spawned elite for the 6th empower. In addition to AC'ing Etti during break, and waiting on casting her final ult to essentially get 2 hits per proc due to getting stacks for her last ult, so only 2 procs is needed for 40. s1 can expect 50+. I don't think anyone else actually plays her that way though, so I still have no idea what they're on about when they say she does more than Luvia!
That said I don't disagree with the order at all, especially when considering all the stars that need to line up in a map for Etti's so called "max potential". But having them a tier below Eirene....you're gonna have to make another 4 or 5 tiers later down the line to accurately portray how bad Oliver is whenever you get to him. =P
Well I'm def hoping to cut down the time I talk about vacuum damage contribution.
@@TheRubyPanda 6th empower would be the fourth. Precast before break, empower back up to full, break boss and a collateral elite. Voila, 1 ult coming down, sitting on 1 full ult and 5 empower charges at break mode start. Find 1 more before break mode ends, and that's a 4th ult. But yeah, it's gonna be map dependent. Nothing's gonna save Etti during mp drought on something like last season's hyperbeast.
2 procs would be 2 celestial bodies from the procs themselves, in addition to 4th ult getting stacked to 10 hits for a total of 40.
I was more thinking Vic and Etti would join Eirene's tier, or at least just Vic, depending on how much investment cost counts towards their performance. I think an issue with assuming "max potential" is PtN's very much a game where if you max out any remotely decent unit....anything you do is gonna be winning anyways, and whichever one does more or less damage is just differentiating mate in 3 being objectively better than mate in 4, but ultimately makes no difference. But that's just my personal opinion of how units should be rated....since BFL technically isn't a matter of doing more or less break mode damage, only whether or not they will deal enough to secure the 240k, as boss hp is finite. In that sense, if we're not counting return on investment, I'd actually personally put s1 Etti in top tier with Luvia regardless of doing less damage, just based on her ability to consistently do enough.
@@BoswerLK Right, I think I was just confused since that technically doesn't work this season, since Boss only gives 2x charges. Meaning initial free ulti (1), start Empowers (2), Boss + 1 Elite (3), Last 2 Elites -> No extra ulti (unless you can double break the Elites?). But yeah, I see what you mean. Good thing I went that high in the calcs then!
I think Vic is the only one who stands a chance of joining Eirene. Ultimately, I'm not too worried about differentiating between levels of bad, like ranking Oliver Vs Ignis in BFL, moreso that I'm interested in "rewarding" Ignis for her RoD performance down the line (Hence why the tier list is structured from general / dominates BFL to specific / borderline useless), otherwise it would just be a BFL tier list instead of a "general" *shivers* one. It comes back to Base Contribution and Meaningful Contribution, basically is Victoria the reason I go from mate in 4 to mate in 3? Or is she the reason I have the mate in 4 at all?
I think if she needs to join Eirene, she needs to do so on the basis of doing "well" across all 3 modes. It's true that this season Victoria's AOE capabilities are hugely welcome since the last wave of adds intersect with the boss usually in break state. However looking at DZ historically, this is by no means a guarantee.
I kind of just think the current "meta" options are too oppressive, which usually pushes Victoria into 3rd build territory. And at that stage, Victoria *is* really simply the reason you go from mate in 4 to 3, and generally building something like Eirene with her Mania Training cheesing (as rare as it is) / EX stage story performance, in addition to the support across game modes is preferable. I wouldn't fault anyone for putting Victoria Queen tier though, I guess after Shalom, it's not like Serpent is easy to acquire. So you are still stuck with Luvia and her typically lackluster wave clear. It's a rough one for sure, I don't think I would say she quite gets there. Hm... Eh, who knows, I could see myself changing her ranking in a future episode, maybe once we see how she fairs against Ignis who probably has similar arguments going for her in terms of AOE compensating for lacklustre Single Target damage (but again, remember, 3 seasons something like Victoria's AOE never really came into play). I did mention this for Victoria, but I felt it equaled out with Etti's superior bossing, which let's *her* team bring more anti-mobbing options like amp, or simply free up something like Luvia quicker.
And I fully agree BFL isn't about break damage, it's about 240k'ing. But measuring pre-break contribution is much harder, and admittedly something I wish I could actually present data for the same way I do break damage, and I think that's also an issue with most of the Arcane, the lack of pre-break contribution.
Naturally, if you have Shalom or Serpent they can pretty much handle the pre-break requirements by themselves, but it's still something I think is meaningful to consider. Which is also why (and slight teaser for probably next episode), I still think there needs to be space for someone like Lamia as well, for *certainly* does well in BFL (through Luvia) and amazingly in Story / Mania.
"General" tier lists are hard man : (
@@TheRubyPanda Eh, actually I don't think Vic would even make 3rd build in the meta sense. I think she's strictly "never build" if we're talking about effective progress. Regardless of her decent performance across all content, she just doesn't offer neither the unique nor game breaking perks that Eirene gets. It's more a sense of if someone really wanted to main an empower nuker as a playstyle preference, Vic's a really strong candidate with her high availability and "almost good enough" contributions, and is relatively capable of being the team's reason to have M4 at all. Synergizing poorly with last stand when Luvia's free and top tier kinda just ruins any chance of actually recommending her when they could be filling the extra slots with Lamia or economy amps as placeholders instead, or Joan who offers similar contributions and better last stand synergy in a Luvia team.
-I wonder how this tier list is going to work once you get to the bro's LOL
-100% agree on Etti's mediocrity. This is the one unit I regret building. There's just no use for Etti outside of BFL. She's got one instance of magic burst and then nothing. And even then, you've clearly demonstrated there are much better options for magic burst than Etti in BFL. Brings zero mobbing and/or utility to a team
-I found your rant on Ac'ing to be quite funny lol. I don't think you had to justify why AC was necessary for Luvia's position. Most tier list assume that your playing a character to their max potential and place characters in their respective tiers regardless of execution. For example, in fighting games, characters are placed in their tiers regardless of execution (like Mishima's, in every Tekken except BR, are always top tier even though they usually have the highest execution barrier). But PTN's not a fighting game so maybe a bad comparison. Anyways, I would assume most people know that some top tier's are going to have an execution requirement to them. If anything, if you were factoring ease of use into your tier list, you could always squeeze her in Queen and you'd get the point across that Luvia's still a terrific character
As far as future episodes, I thought this episode was fine. This format of talking in-depth about the hotly contested characters, while glancing over the obvious placements was fine. (Like tackling the Pricilla vs Flora debate, or whether demo deserves to be s with his shield stack team when dreya can be s with her bleed team etc)
Great analysis, and looking forward to future episodes
Don't worry, Demon is the most beautiful Princess of them all obv!
Yup, I fully agree most tier lists should assume that you're playing a character to the max! I just get worried because that technically means I should always assume you reset for Etti gem, and when we get to a sinner like Corso, that you reset until you have 3x Knives xD But yeah, I fully agree that Luvia Ray should always be considered through her AC potential, and once you do she can pretty much only be Goddess / Queen (considering I think she is probably the only thing close to S0 Deren (?)) which we are going to cover.
*just wait till you see the Pricilla AC we are totally gonna be talking about xD*
Thank you for the feedback btw!
Little do you know that Ruby is actually a huge Tekken fan.