The contrast between the tender moments and those more frantic is remarkable. It's musical without being maudlin and the frenetic pace of much of it is breath-taking.
The "Nimrod" variation sounds much more like an anthem of brotherhood rather than overdone funeral march of today. This makes much more sense, given the tribute to a good and loyal friend it was meant to be. So damned refreshing.
Agree completely. Compare with Bernstein's ludicrous distortion of this great music. We have another example of this with the Adagietto movement of the Mahler 5th. We know Mahler's timing when conducting this movement. Many conductors today take twice as long. You also hear this in Rachmaninoff playing his own music. He never slobbers over it, over-sentimentalizing it. After hearing him, it's hard to listen to anyone else, except perhaps Horowitz, in that music.
Orchestras seem to play Variation IX like they play Barber’s Adagio. It’s meant to symbolise friendship, not death! Yes, it’s meant to be melancholic, but equally jolly at the same time, like the variation before it, as it symbolises Elgar’s publisher and best friend in Germany, Augustus Jaeger.
Well the Electrical Recording was Made in 1926 in the Royal Albert Hall and was first Reissued in 1957 by His Master's Voice Record Number ALP 1464 along with the 1932 Recording of Violin Concerto ALP 1456 and the Falstaff Symphonic Study BLP 1090,and I've got a copy of all three Recordings as well as the Pre war 78rpm Record set of the Violin Concerto in the Pre war album Record Numbers DB-1751 DB-1756
Love to hear this conducted by Elgar himself. Those incredibly lucky musicians in that orchesta. Sounds unlike any version I have heard before. Wonderful memories of childhood visits to his birthplace, and walks in the Malvern Hills
I am a great fan of Elgar, have been since early childhood and now I am 68 years old I have not changed one iota. I always thought that if you cut off a limb you will find Elgar’s music running through my veins.
Such beautiful music full of warmth and feelings, likes of which are rare. We should have a Universal Elgar Day for the sake of those who remain down to earth human despite living in this age of machines and soon to come artificial intelligence and associated robots.
Listen to those strings right from the start and the entrance of the woodwinds ... to be able to play with the composer conducting, what an honor it must have been for those orchestral musicians. Wonderful post "goodmanmusica" ... thanks so much!
10:20 Everytime I start hearing or conducting Variation VIII (Allegretto) "W.N." I instantly well up with emotion in anticipation of Variation IX (Adagio) "Nimrod" and how "W.N." sublimely links with and sets up "Nimrod"! ❤️❤️ It is simply incredible writing and is one of the most touching / emotional sequences in all of music! Oh and I adore this interpretation of "Nimrod" 😃
Lots of comments as to the speed of Nimrod, especially. But composers did, I think tend to play their own music more quickly that most. Some of Beethoven's metronome marks are ridiculously fast; Wagner complained that other conductors performed his music too slowly; and Ravel speaking of his piece "pavane pour une infante défunte" famously said, after listening to a performance by another conductor: "It is the infanta who is dead, Monsieur, not the pavane!"
I would add to my original comment, that I think the reason for composers performing their masterpieces more quickly than others, is that they are less in awe of the music because they created it.
I think DIck MOrris makes a good point. The converse of this is how, over time, "great" and "important" music gets played more and more slowly, and even more so if it's "sacred" music. Think of the tempi usual for Bach or Handel 70 years ago or so, glutinously slow and "reverent." Fortunately we've recaptured a sense of how much baroque music is based in rhythms of lively social dances that need to be considered if the music is to live. P.S. love he Ravel quotation, which is new to me.
Besides the use of portamento in the strings (which I'm not sure is written), he starts slow, and as the melody climbs, he makes it quicker. It is not a peaceful climb to the climax in his mind. Is an anxious, breathtaking climb. When is about to reach is slows down, like a man reaching the cuspid of a mountain with his last strength. When he finally reaches, it relaxes and fades away. Yes, it is much faster than we are used to. Conductors keep the original slow tempo all the way. But you don't feel the anxiety, the running out of breath, the 'almost not getting there', and the relaxation. There is much to learn from this performance.
Always so interesting to have the composers take on his great works...tho' the sting slides of the early 20th century sting practice as a bit of a surprise...but the grandeur of the work is not...and it's sense of fun and melancholy so intermixed in his compositions...I have this recording...and tho' sonic-ally limited...it still thrills and charms out of good speakers !
A compelling case can be made for the ninth variation, "Nimrod" so-named by Elgar himself, being taken a tempo, which at first hearing might be deemed insensitive or fearful of sentiment, but on repeated hearing gains in melodic coherence and retains the vigor with which all the Enigma Variations exhibit. It has become the dubious "tradition" to take No. IX at absurdly slow tempos, drawing out the phrasing like pulled taffy, dynamics ballooning and deflating rather than flowing naturally with the extraordinarily moving tune.
I agree about tempos although I would prefer Nimrod only marginally slower. I have the same opinion about the Adagietto of Mahler 5th. Usually played, as you say, absurdly TOO slow, looses its melodic coherence.
Hmmm. I do love this piece of music very, very much! And, as for all of the comments I have read which are rather mind boggling at times, I would say to all of those...Just listen to the music the way the conductor/ composer wants it played. Who else knows it better? Thanks !
9:28: an explosion. I have yet to hear ANY modern "musician" who is able to conduct or play like this. they will clean up every single mistake, every risk, and destroy this great music to fulfill their need for superficial surface beauty. isn't it amazing how emotional, heartfelt, moving and stunning early recordings are, and how clean, boring and cold today's performances? I will always prefer listening to someone like Elgar conducting than to any modern CD. every mistake this orchestra plays is more interesting than any correct note of today's boring musicians (with some exceptions, which are, unfortunately, rare).
Couldn't agree with you more. Today it's all perfect- perfectly boring and lifeless. Ice water in the veins. Don't stick out, take no chances, do imitations of the others. I prefer to stay home.
I wonder if there are any notes from fellow composers/ conductors of the time that might shed light on the tempo of this movement. The comment regarding recording time of a 12" 78 disc is a very valid one. I don`t know what the absolute limit would be. It is interesting that some record companies allowed the groove to run right up to the label with a tiny gap been the last revolution and the run off groove. This could have made some difference to the performance time. They could, of course have used a smaller label to eek out a little more, still! Remember, though, that the surface speed is very much reduced by then - much less, in fact, than the outer of an L.P! So loud passages would be a strain on the groove, as can be witnessed on some of the small 78s like "Eclipse" and other 8" records which often had loud dance music of the time, and have quite a bit of distortion at the end after countless playings with a heavy sound box or early pick-up with a steel needle! However, I believe it was the custom in later years to have the familiar abrupt run of with an non eccentric groove where the pick-up swings from side to side, This takes up more space! Having said all that, it may not prove a thing! Sorry to be boring! It was just a thought or two, or three .. .. .. .. ..
And if any of the Facebook Readers would like to hear Elgar's own Recording of this work on Vinyl the Best Reissue of this famous Recording Made in 1926 for His Master's Voice and Reissued in 1957 by His Master's Voice Record Number ALP 1464 as it's far more clear than the 1970's World Record Club and the HMV Treasury Box set Reissues and this Recording has been Transferred to C-D Coupled with the famous 1932 Recording of the Violin Concerto which again was first Reissued in 1957 by His Master's Voice for Sir Edward Elgar's Birth Record Number ALP 1456 and that is also by far a far better Transfer than the later one's and the Enigma Variations was Elgar's first Electrical Recording and whoever did this Transfer obviously didn't do a very good job on the Recording
Sometimes it’s downright amazing what you can hear in old recordings, notably the contrabassoon in whichever variation it is that is a caricature of William Baker (“funny eccentricities and way of speaking”, said Dora Powell in her book), and the delicate balancing of orchestral choirs in R.P.A. and W.N. I’ve never heard a more fiery rendering of Troyte, or of G.R.S. And this is a very early electrical recording! I concur with Mr. Laureano’s assessment of Nimrod. The performance, overall, seems to have a solid continuity -- a challenge in the stop-and-start days of 4.5 minutes per 78 side.
There are many and diverse arguments for a slower tempo throughout the variations, but the final arbiter of such matters must the composer himself and, as this version was performed under his direction, I would suggest that we must defer to the maestro, Sir Edward.
Let's be honest enough to be truthful even though it be the great composer himself directing: what with the ubiquitous Crackling and speeded up tempi passim this is a pretty awful listening experience. My view anyway.
@@raymondmorgan2041 Keep the recorded sound quality in Elgar's perspective. After decades of acoustic horns, the advent of microphones and electrical record cutters greatly improved matters.
Nimrod tempo is brisker than most which do it funereal dirge, especially in Britain for state occasions. But there also seems to be glissandi in the playing or it is an old tape effect. Thanks for the post: historically interesting.
Listen to any singers from the time (e.g. Adelina Patti) and you'll find lots more of that portamento that sounds so odd to our ears today. It's mentioned in lots of people writing from the 1800's that it's a good thing and should be used. Listen to some old Joachim on his violin and you'll hear it there too.
A pity that the use of tastefully applied portamento is so absent from todays orchestral interpretations. It is beyond beautiful and soulful in this performance.
I believe he said to the orchestra on one occasion, "I would like you to play this as if you have never played it before". Well, they hadn`t, so they did!
Disgusting, isn't it? Those RUclips-inserted commercials at completely inappropriate times just encourage me to a) never buy the products or services advertised and b) buy the CD. Amazon has the nine-CD box set of every Elgar electrical recording for about four bucks per disk.
Having listened a few times, I'm liking Nimrod better at the speed it begins at. He seems to accelerate into the climax, which I'm not entirely sure I agree with, but he doesn't put melodrama into it
Elgar once said to a friend that his ideal was Schumann - all these variations are about people he knew. So is Schumann's Carnaval. So they are really private, not public pieces - he only uses their initials, except in Nimrod (=Hunter=Jaeger, with whom he discusses Beethoven), and three asterisks in the penultimate one. And the climax of Nimrod isn't in the variation at all, but in the finale, where it comes back at the beginning of the coda that Jaeger persuaded him to expand, to get balance at the end. So,when conducting, he underplays Nimrod itself to avoid having to overplay in the finale when the Nimrod variation comes back. So does Toscanini. Even in his lifetime folk- even fellow conductors who were friends - thought Elgar tended not to make the most of his own music. But you don't shout at your friends.
If anything, Elgar’s Nimrod take seems “clipped” towards its conclusion compared to AT’s, but you’re right. Toscanini “got it” and his overall timing is slower (I’m talking the 1935 Queens Hall performance) than this recording of Sir Edward’s. Wonderful to listen to these performances.
@@danpastore7070 The increadible Toscanini NBC 1949 concert is much more rapid and much more close to Elgar tempi. It also have astonishing collective playing and contrasts...and remain quasi unknown to everybody!
...I should probably have asked "where could I find more recordings of the Enigma Variations around this time?". In any case, that's what I meant to ask.
His choice of tempi are a bit of a surprise in some places (The slow 'theme' but fast 'Nimrod'). In historic recordings like these, you have to take into consideration that there was a time limit on how long a recording could be. That said, he certainly lets these movements breathe a lot more than some current conductors.
One can't pretend something is wrong just because one doesn't like it or, simply, not used to it. Your comment gives further proof that people will never accept whatever they are not ever willing to accept, no matter how hard it hits their faces or ears, and that they will make up whatever reason to try to justify their own assumptions and prejudices. If there truly had been a need to shorten the performance, as you suggest, (and that for what: to make it all just like three minutes shorter?) he could have manipulated the tempo, as you imply, in another section, to keep the "Nimrod" as slow and dull as you prefer it to be played. People seem to establish a link between affection and dullness, through the solemnity they want to attach to some particular pieces of music, and not just cultivated music: the more they love them, and the more they grow sentimental about them, the slower and the more dragging they feel they must be performed. Affections and opinions are never wrong: it is reality that is always in the wrong, whenever there is a divergence between both.
Very often, the hearing of a version of a familiar work cast in a totally different manner - yes, keep an open mind - but the final result may well be to cause many to appreciate that much more that had hitherto been unheard and taken for granted.
I will go further and say that often, after a composer has written a work, later generations of musicians might find something transcendental hidden in it that the composer might never have been aware of. I have in mind Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, in particular the slow movement. This movement has metronome markings that indicate a much faster tempo than many of us are accustomed to. It was the generation of later nineteenth century conductors that brought out this celestial quality in the music, the Brucknerian type of Adagio (that undoubtedly influenced Bruckner himself as well as Mahler) that I for one would never wish to forego, evidenced in performances by for example Leonard Bernstein who really understood the work and knew how to bring out its best features. There were other conductors beside him who leaned in this direction - Karajan, Bohm, Klemperer, Jochum, etc. This approach, while perhaps not what the composer had originally conceived, nevertheless has proven its validity many times over, and I would suggest that the same might be true of Elgar's Nimrod and Mahler's Adagietto, always considering that even such an approach not be carried to ludicrous extremes for then it would defeat its own purpose. But what I'm essentially saying is that just because a certain manner of reading a work did not originate with the composer is no reason to summarily reject it. All of us who are intelligent listeners hear a work in our own manner with our own faculties - our ears and our minds - and not that of the composer. This is immutable and can never be otherwise. We must learn to accept that premise - there is no such thing as absolute Authenticity, so I suggest that we should stop being such purists and simply enjoy the music as we receive it - there is really no other way.
alger3041 agreed. The other possibility is that the composer themselves realise later that a piece they wrote works better in a different way. Kreisler has two recordings of himself playing his Liebesleid at different times in his life - there's a clear difference. Also, the fact that Mahler switched the middle movements of his 6th symphony in rehearsals for the premiere.
Maybe the violins didn't had any finger left after the var VII so they decide to slide every note. ^^ Joke appart maybe Elgar himself ask them to do so ;)
It's funny to see that Elgar played Nimrod so fast while everybody plays this piece during 8 or 9 minutes... maybe he wouldn't be agree with the standard for Nimrod nowadays. It seems that for him Nimrod was not a solemn piece. lol
I think in the score it says q = 52. He starts a lot slower than that here but ends up a little faster. It is interesting how conductors nowadays do it way slower than he did
@@pepijnstreng4643 Today is a song played at funerals but above all in the Remembrance Day, and also is linked to the British monarchy. So, maybe these are the reasons.
I think this is a perfect example of a composer who doesn't, for whatever reason, bring out the best in his own music. Elgar denied that he speeded up the tempi because of the brevity of the old 78rpm records. I don't believe him! It's much more the case that so-called Romantic music had had its day and was now totally out of fashion. Rachmaninoff's recordings are the same - stay away from (or at least underplay) everything that anyone might regard as 'sentimental' or overblown. Of course, you would never hear a recording played at this speed today. I think that proves my point. Never trust composers, and I speak with some authority on this because I am one! Many thanks to goodmanmusica for allowing is to hear this revelatory historical document.
Michael Paul Smith I don't think the fact that more modern conductors would not do things at this tempo proves anything about whether the music should be played as such. It proves that more modern conductors play it slower and that people generally prefer things a little slower nowadays. In any case, I think that modern interpreters tend to go a little far on the 'sentimentality' of music. Of course most would nowadays be very confused if you played Nimrod at this speed and with the minimal vibrato of Elgar's time. However, Bernstein takes it at almost half the tempo, making it ridiculously slow, and, while it is emotionally very good, that may be going a bit far. And relating to vibrato, I personally believe that many soloists do too much vibrato to the extent that it thins the sound and obscures the music. A lack of vibrato clears the sound but deadens it somewhat, but too much vibrato kills the pitch and so the music. Singers are the worst for this, because it's of course impossible to project over an orchestra with no vibrato. Necessary evil there, I think.
this is simply wrong. Elgar's tempi are NOT speeded up because of lack of space. Elgar's fast tempi and his tempo flexibility, his "personal rubato", are well documented by critics and musicians who heard him. if you are using your modern aesthetic views to judge the credibility of historical recordings, I'd say this is far from the facts.
Oh come on everybody, back to the good old days, is it? Those slightly ridiculous portamentos may be typical of the times, but the sound is atrocious, climaxes are so distorted as to become unlistenable, dynamics are terrible, inner balance is all but gone. Even in those days many better recordings were produced. Whether Elgar wanted Nimrod to be played at such a fast clip or whether the producer egged him on to fit the music on the old 78s is still a matter of debate. Same with Rachmaninov's own piano concertos, they zoom by like express trains
Well what do you Expect from that Recording as it was Made in 1926 a year after the Broadcasting Microphone(Electrical Recordings)first came out,and from what I found out that Recording sold very well and almost Eight years later Elgar died of Cancer on the Morning of Friday February 23rd 1934
The contrast between the tender moments and those more frantic is remarkable. It's musical without being maudlin and the frenetic pace of much of it is breath-taking.
it's a treat to hear elgar conduct his own work. ..
For 1926 this is an amazing sounding recording!
I've never heard Elgars music played better than when Elgar was conducting it himself
This musical GIANT passed a year before I was born, bummer!!
Elgar did a great performance of his own 1st symphony as well
The "Nimrod" variation sounds much more like an anthem of brotherhood rather than overdone funeral march of today. This makes much more sense, given the tribute to a good and loyal friend it was meant to be. So damned refreshing.
Agree completely. Compare with Bernstein's ludicrous distortion of this great music. We have another example of this with the Adagietto movement of the Mahler 5th. We know Mahler's timing when conducting this movement. Many conductors today take twice as long. You also hear this in Rachmaninoff playing his own music. He never slobbers over it, over-sentimentalizing it. After hearing him, it's hard to listen to anyone else, except perhaps Horowitz, in that music.
Orchestras seem to play Variation IX like they play Barber’s Adagio. It’s meant to symbolise friendship, not death!
Yes, it’s meant to be melancholic, but equally jolly at the same time, like the variation before it, as it symbolises Elgar’s publisher and best friend in Germany, Augustus Jaeger.
@@mogmason6920 YES!
Well the Electrical Recording was Made in 1926 in the Royal Albert Hall and was first Reissued in 1957 by His Master's Voice Record Number ALP 1464 along with the 1932 Recording of Violin Concerto ALP 1456 and the Falstaff Symphonic Study BLP 1090,and I've got a copy of all three Recordings as well as the Pre war 78rpm Record set of the Violin Concerto in the Pre war album Record Numbers DB-1751 DB-1756
@@donaldallen1771 Believe it or not, Bernstein’s comically slow Nimrod, is much slower than his version of Saint-Saens’s Tortoises!
Love to hear this conducted by Elgar himself. Those incredibly lucky musicians in that orchesta. Sounds unlike any version I have heard before. Wonderful memories of childhood visits to his birthplace, and walks in the Malvern Hills
I am a great fan of Elgar, have been since early childhood and now I am 68 years old I have not changed one iota. I always thought that if you cut off a limb you will find Elgar’s music running through my veins.
He seemed to be connected in some mysterious way to the soul of this country in a way no other English or British composer did.
Such beautiful music full of warmth and feelings, likes of which are rare. We should have a Universal Elgar Day for the sake of those who remain down to earth human despite living in this age of machines and soon to come artificial intelligence and associated robots.
Listen to those strings right from the start and the entrance of the woodwinds ... to be able to play with the composer conducting, what an honor it must have been for those orchestral musicians. Wonderful post "goodmanmusica" ... thanks so much!
I love these Elgar recordings. They show Elgar to be a very, very good conductor and the orchestra is quite good.
What a jewel
10:20 Everytime I start hearing or conducting Variation VIII (Allegretto) "W.N." I instantly well up with emotion in anticipation of Variation IX (Adagio) "Nimrod" and how "W.N." sublimely links with and sets up "Nimrod"! ❤️❤️ It is simply incredible writing and is one of the most touching / emotional sequences in all of music! Oh and I adore this interpretation of "Nimrod" 😃
This is genius. Just beautiful
This was Elgar's first electrical recording. He had previously recorded the variations acoustically in 1920/21
Thank you for this - first time I've heard the maestro conducting his own piece. Fabulous !
Lots of comments as to the speed of Nimrod, especially. But composers did, I think tend to play their own music more quickly that most. Some of Beethoven's metronome marks are ridiculously fast; Wagner complained that other conductors performed his music too slowly; and Ravel speaking of his piece "pavane pour une infante défunte" famously said, after listening to a performance by another conductor: "It is the infanta who is dead, Monsieur, not the pavane!"
I would add to my original comment, that I think the reason for composers performing their masterpieces more quickly than others, is that they are less in awe of the music because they created it.
Have you heard kapustin rocketing through his most difficult pieces? It's ridiculous how good he keeps time.
I think DIck MOrris makes a good point. The converse of this is how, over time, "great" and "important" music gets played more and more slowly, and even more so if it's "sacred" music. Think of the tempi usual for Bach or Handel 70 years ago or so, glutinously slow and "reverent." Fortunately we've recaptured a sense of how much baroque music is based in rhythms of lively social dances that need to be considered if the music is to live. P.S. love he Ravel quotation, which is new to me.
Have a listen to how fast Walton and Coates conduct their own music compared to other interpretive conductors......
Besides the use of portamento in the strings (which I'm not sure is written), he starts slow, and as the melody climbs, he makes it quicker. It is not a peaceful climb to the climax in his mind. Is an anxious, breathtaking climb. When is about to reach is slows down, like a man reaching the cuspid of a mountain with his last strength. When he finally reaches, it relaxes and fades away.
Yes, it is much faster than we are used to. Conductors keep the original slow tempo all the way. But you don't feel the anxiety, the running out of breath, the 'almost not getting there', and the relaxation. There is much to learn from this performance.
Beautiful! Thanks for sharing.
Always so interesting to have the composers take on his great works...tho' the sting slides of the early 20th century sting practice as a bit of a surprise...but the grandeur of the work is not...and it's sense of fun and melancholy so intermixed in his compositions...I have this recording...and tho' sonic-ally limited...it still thrills and charms out of good speakers !
A compelling case can be made for the ninth variation, "Nimrod" so-named by Elgar himself, being taken a tempo, which at first hearing might be deemed insensitive or fearful of sentiment, but on repeated hearing gains in melodic coherence and retains the vigor with which all the Enigma Variations exhibit. It has become the dubious "tradition" to take No. IX at absurdly slow tempos, drawing out the phrasing like pulled taffy, dynamics ballooning and deflating rather than flowing naturally with the extraordinarily moving tune.
Tom Gossard Yeah, exactly. I wonder what Elgar would think of more recent orchestrations of Nimrod.
He would probably say, "Why?".
Couldn`t agree more.
I agree about tempos although I would prefer Nimrod only marginally slower. I have the same opinion about the Adagietto of Mahler 5th. Usually played, as you say, absurdly TOO slow, looses its melodic coherence.
LOL - am left with the image of Elgar strangling a hapless and helpless Bernstein, after reading your comment! What a sight that would have been!
Hmmm. I do love this piece of music very, very much! And, as for all of the comments I have read which are rather mind boggling at times, I would say to all of those...Just listen to the music the way the conductor/ composer wants it played. Who else knows it better? Thanks !
Kathleen Hazeldine have you heard of Toscanini playing of Nimrod. It’s most majestic.
A lovely connection with the past.
9:28: an explosion. I have yet to hear ANY modern "musician" who is able to conduct or play like this. they will clean up every single mistake, every risk, and destroy this great music to fulfill their need for superficial surface beauty. isn't it amazing how emotional, heartfelt, moving and stunning early recordings are, and how clean, boring and cold today's performances? I will always prefer listening to someone like Elgar conducting than to any modern CD. every mistake this orchestra plays is more interesting than any correct note of today's boring musicians (with some exceptions, which are, unfortunately, rare).
Hear, hear!
Couldn't agree with you more. Today it's all perfect- perfectly boring and lifeless. Ice water in the veins. Don't stick out, take no chances, do imitations of the others. I prefer to stay home.
the greatest opus ever created
I wonder if there are any notes from fellow composers/ conductors of the time that might shed light on the tempo of this movement. The comment regarding recording time of a 12" 78 disc is a very valid one. I don`t know what the absolute limit would be. It is interesting that some record companies allowed the groove to run right up to the label with a tiny gap been the last revolution and the run off groove. This could have made some difference to the performance time. They could, of course have used a smaller label to eek out a little more, still! Remember, though, that the surface speed is very much reduced by then - much less, in fact, than the outer of an L.P! So loud passages would be a strain on the groove, as can be witnessed on some of the small 78s like "Eclipse" and other 8" records which often had loud dance music of the time, and have quite a bit of distortion at the end after countless playings with a heavy sound box or early pick-up with a steel needle! However, I believe it was the custom in later years to have the familiar abrupt run of with an non eccentric groove where the pick-up swings from side to side, This takes up more space! Having said all that, it may not prove a thing! Sorry to be boring! It was just a thought or two, or three .. .. .. .. ..
Great to hear that, still very little vibrato, lots of glissandi. The true sound of romantic. Stunning quality
Thank you for this! I can compare it with the Adrian Boult version I have, of him conducting the BBC Symphony orchestra. Thank you so much!
Nimrod at 11:59
+
Oh thank you
The non-existent is in the best situation ever, it is in situation better than any situation ever !!!!! 🖤
I'm not such a fan of Elgar's but I do love this composition and this reading with the conductor directing is absolutely most supreme; thank you.
SatchmoSings How much you have missed! Elgar’s music is amazing especially his two symphonies, serenade for strings and violin concerto
And if any of the Facebook Readers would like to hear Elgar's own Recording of this work on Vinyl the Best Reissue of this famous Recording Made in 1926 for His Master's Voice and Reissued in 1957 by His Master's Voice Record Number ALP 1464 as it's far more clear than the 1970's World Record Club and the HMV Treasury Box set Reissues and this Recording has been Transferred to C-D Coupled with the famous 1932 Recording of the Violin Concerto which again was first Reissued in 1957 by His Master's Voice for Sir Edward Elgar's Birth Record Number ALP 1456 and that is also by far a far better Transfer than the later one's and the Enigma Variations was Elgar's first Electrical Recording and whoever did this Transfer obviously didn't do a very good job on the Recording
I love this recording, which makes total nonsense of the Norrington non vibrato interpretation.
Disfruten de Elgar y su música, y aprendan de un músico notable.-
Sometimes it’s downright amazing what you can hear in old recordings, notably the contrabassoon in whichever variation it is that is a caricature of William Baker (“funny eccentricities and way of speaking”, said Dora Powell in her book), and the delicate balancing of orchestral choirs in R.P.A. and W.N. I’ve never heard a more fiery rendering of Troyte, or of G.R.S. And this is a very early electrical recording! I concur with Mr. Laureano’s assessment of Nimrod. The performance, overall, seems to have a solid continuity -- a challenge in the stop-and-start days of 4.5 minutes per 78 side.
Who were the 5 that gave this bit of history the thumbs down and, more important, why??
Manny Laureano 5 idiots
There are many and diverse arguments for a slower tempo throughout the variations, but the final arbiter of such matters must the composer himself and, as this version was performed under his direction, I would suggest that we must defer to the maestro, Sir Edward.
Let's be honest enough to be truthful even though it be the great composer himself directing: what with the ubiquitous Crackling and speeded up tempi passim this is a pretty awful listening experience. My view anyway.
@@raymondmorgan2041 Keep the recorded sound quality in Elgar's perspective. After decades of acoustic horns, the advent of microphones and electrical record cutters greatly improved matters.
Nimrod tempo is brisker than most which do it funereal dirge, especially in Britain for state occasions. But there also seems to be glissandi in the playing or it is an old tape effect. Thanks for the post: historically interesting.
I noticed the glissandi also. That's an interesting question.
No "Tape" in 1926, it hadn't be invented yet, it was still direct to disc at that time, an electric recording though.
The more usual term is portamento to describe these slight slides which were were very prevalent during this period..
Portamenti were indeed very prevalent at the time. One of the most influential violinists of the day - Kreisler - used them a lot.
Listen to any singers from the time (e.g. Adelina Patti) and you'll find lots more of that portamento that sounds so odd to our ears today. It's mentioned in lots of people writing from the 1800's that it's a good thing and should be used. Listen to some old Joachim on his violin and you'll hear it there too.
Never heard so excessive glissandos in "Nimrod" before. But with the brisk tempo it works. A contemporary top orchestra wouldn`t dare.....
That was the orchestral playing style back then.
A pity that the use of tastefully applied portamento is so absent from todays orchestral interpretations. It is beyond beautiful and soulful in this performance.
I believe he said to the orchestra on one occasion, "I would like you to play this as if you have never played it before". Well, they hadn`t, so they did!
That was in reference to the Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1 which was very well known at the time. There's a video of this somewhere out there.
Imagine putting ads on this...
Disgusting, isn't it? Those RUclips-inserted commercials at completely inappropriate times just encourage me to a) never buy the products or services advertised and b) buy the CD. Amazon has the nine-CD box set of every Elgar electrical recording for about four bucks per disk.
12:00 nimrod
It's so strange how during nimrod all the violins are sliding to every note. It's so bizarre !
Portamenti were very fashionable at the time. Kreisler - one of the most influential violinists of the time, used them a lot.
I like that Elgar allowed or even encouraged that.
It's aTime--lives
Par le maître...
Having listened a few times, I'm liking Nimrod better at the speed it begins at. He seems to accelerate into the climax, which I'm not entirely sure I agree with, but he doesn't put melodrama into it
Elgar once said to a friend that his ideal was Schumann - all these variations are about people he knew. So is Schumann's Carnaval. So they are really private, not public pieces - he only uses their initials, except in Nimrod (=Hunter=Jaeger, with whom he discusses Beethoven), and three asterisks in the penultimate one. And the climax of Nimrod isn't in the variation at all, but in the finale, where it comes back at the beginning of the coda that Jaeger persuaded him to expand, to get balance at the end. So,when conducting, he underplays Nimrod itself to avoid having to overplay in the finale when the Nimrod variation comes back. So does Toscanini. Even in his lifetime folk- even fellow conductors who were friends - thought Elgar tended not to make the most of his own music. But you don't shout at your friends.
@@Allanfearn Unless your friend was Beethoven....
I like the passion that he gets in the accelerandos. And he's the composer, so perhaps he intended it to be musical in this way and not stagnant.
I particularly like 'GRS' here. It sounds more comical and doglike than any other conductor's interpretation I've heard!
This must be how it is meant sound
11:57
It should be noted Toscanini takes Nimrod at almost the exact tempo as Elgar 27 years later. I doubt he ever heard Elgar lead it.
If anything, Elgar’s Nimrod take seems “clipped” towards its conclusion compared to AT’s, but you’re right. Toscanini “got it” and his overall timing is slower (I’m talking the 1935 Queens Hall performance) than this recording of Sir Edward’s. Wonderful to listen to these performances.
@@danpastore7070 The increadible Toscanini NBC 1949 concert is much more rapid and much more close to Elgar tempi. It also have astonishing collective playing and contrasts...and remain quasi unknown to everybody!
11:58 Nimrod
Are there any other recordings available from this time?
klop422 Yes
...I should probably have asked "where could I find more recordings of the Enigma Variations around this time?". In any case, that's what I meant to ask.
klop422 I dont think. But There is Toscanini at BBC in 1935
So offensive for the movements to be separated by adverts for crisps.
Is RUclips's fault, not mine
His choice of tempi are a bit of a surprise in some places (The slow 'theme' but fast 'Nimrod'). In historic recordings like these, you have to take into consideration that there was a time limit on how long a recording could be. That said, he certainly lets these movements breathe a lot more than some current conductors.
Anthony Cushing I agree Nimrod at this tempo surprised me, but I prefer it a little slower.
One can't pretend something is wrong just because one doesn't like it or, simply, not used to it.
Your comment gives further proof that people will never accept whatever they are not ever willing to accept, no matter how hard it hits their faces or ears, and that they will make up whatever reason to try to justify their own assumptions and prejudices.
If there truly had been a need to shorten the performance, as you suggest, (and that for what: to make it all just like three minutes shorter?) he could have manipulated the tempo, as you imply, in another section, to keep the "Nimrod" as slow and dull as you prefer it to be played.
People seem to establish a link between affection and dullness, through the solemnity they want to attach to some particular pieces of music, and not just cultivated music: the more they love them, and the more they grow sentimental about them, the slower and the more dragging they feel they must be performed.
Affections and opinions are never wrong: it is reality that is always in the wrong, whenever there is a divergence between both.
Very often, the hearing of a version of a familiar work cast in a totally different manner - yes, keep an open mind - but the final result may well be to cause many to appreciate that much more that had hitherto been unheard and taken for granted.
I will go further and say that often, after a composer has written a work, later generations of musicians might find something transcendental hidden in it that the composer might never have been aware of. I have in mind Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, in particular the slow movement. This movement has metronome markings that indicate a much faster tempo than many of us are accustomed to. It was the generation of later nineteenth century conductors that brought out this celestial quality in the music, the Brucknerian type of Adagio (that undoubtedly influenced Bruckner himself as well as Mahler) that I for one would never wish to forego, evidenced in performances by for example Leonard Bernstein who really understood the work and knew how to bring out its best features. There were other conductors beside him who leaned in this direction - Karajan, Bohm, Klemperer, Jochum, etc. This approach, while perhaps not what the composer had originally conceived, nevertheless has proven its validity many times over, and I would suggest that the same might be true of Elgar's Nimrod and Mahler's Adagietto, always considering that even such an approach not be carried to ludicrous extremes for then it would defeat its own purpose. But what I'm essentially saying is that just because a certain manner of reading a work did not originate with the composer is no reason to summarily reject it. All of us who are intelligent listeners hear a work in our own manner with our own faculties - our ears and our minds - and not that of the composer. This is immutable and can never be otherwise. We must learn to accept that premise - there is no such thing as absolute Authenticity, so I suggest that we should stop being such purists and simply enjoy the music as we receive it - there is really no other way.
alger3041 agreed. The other possibility is that the composer themselves realise later that a piece they wrote works better in a different way. Kreisler has two recordings of himself playing his Liebesleid at different times in his life - there's a clear difference.
Also, the fact that Mahler switched the middle movements of his 6th symphony in rehearsals for the premiere.
intrigued by the glissandos in the violins- perhaps slightly overdone?
They were fashionable at the time.
Maybe the violins didn't had any finger left after the var VII so they decide to slide every note. ^^ Joke appart maybe Elgar himself ask them to do so ;)
No - that was the accepted and expected musical technique of the time. And remember Elgar wrote, expecting that kind of sound.
It's funny to see that Elgar played Nimrod so fast while everybody plays this piece during 8 or 9 minutes... maybe he wouldn't be agree with the standard for Nimrod nowadays. It seems that for him Nimrod was not a solemn piece. lol
I think in the score it says q = 52. He starts a lot slower than that here but ends up a little faster. It is interesting how conductors nowadays do it way slower than he did
@@pepijnstreng4643 Today is a song played at funerals but above all in the Remembrance Day, and also is linked to the British monarchy. So, maybe these are the reasons.
Stupid annoying ads interrupting this beautiful music. Oh how I hate capitalism.
I think this is a perfect example of a composer who doesn't, for whatever reason, bring out the best in his own music. Elgar denied that he speeded up the tempi because of the brevity of the old 78rpm records. I don't believe him! It's much more the case that so-called Romantic music had had its day and was now totally out of fashion. Rachmaninoff's recordings are the same - stay away from (or at least underplay) everything that anyone might regard as 'sentimental' or overblown. Of course, you would never hear a recording played at this speed today. I think that proves my point. Never trust composers, and I speak with some authority on this because I am one! Many thanks to goodmanmusica for allowing is to hear this revelatory historical document.
Michael Paul Smith I don't think the fact that more modern conductors would not do things at this tempo proves anything about whether the music should be played as such. It proves that more modern conductors play it slower and that people generally prefer things a little slower nowadays.
In any case, I think that modern interpreters tend to go a little far on the 'sentimentality' of music. Of course most would nowadays be very confused if you played Nimrod at this speed and with the minimal vibrato of Elgar's time. However, Bernstein takes it at almost half the tempo, making it ridiculously slow, and, while it is emotionally very good, that may be going a bit far.
And relating to vibrato, I personally believe that many soloists do too much vibrato to the extent that it thins the sound and obscures the music. A lack of vibrato clears the sound but deadens it somewhat, but too much vibrato kills the pitch and so the music. Singers are the worst for this, because it's of course impossible to project over an orchestra with no vibrato. Necessary evil there, I think.
you are right. Rachmaninoff is the best example.
this is simply wrong. Elgar's tempi are NOT speeded up because of lack of space. Elgar's fast tempi and his tempo flexibility, his "personal rubato", are well documented by critics and musicians who heard him. if you are using your modern aesthetic views to judge the credibility of historical recordings, I'd say this is far from the facts.
Bravo, 304712 L. You are, as the Brits say, "Spot on."
I do not agree with your opinion as the music is for the people with absolute varieties.
Wow. Slightly too fast Nimrod :/
Jay Boerner Too fast? Elgar wrote the piece!
Us Autor wanted....The real vivid Adagio
Oh come on everybody, back to the good old days, is it? Those slightly ridiculous portamentos may be typical of the times, but the sound is atrocious, climaxes are so distorted as to become unlistenable, dynamics are terrible, inner balance is all but gone. Even in those days many better recordings were produced. Whether Elgar wanted Nimrod to be played at such a fast clip or whether the producer egged him on to fit the music on the old 78s is still a matter of debate. Same with Rachmaninov's own piano concertos, they zoom by like express trains
I think you are too used to the extreme sound engineering of today!
Well what do you Expect from that Recording as it was Made in 1926 a year after the Broadcasting Microphone(Electrical Recordings)first came out,and from what I found out that Recording sold very well and almost Eight years later Elgar died of Cancer on the Morning of Friday February 23rd 1934
@@p1966kful You don't read what I wrote. I said it was atrocious even for its time, so I'm not comparing it to modern recordings.
11:59
11:59