Hey guys, for what it's worth, I by no means think the game is perfect! It's got plenty of issues, but so do a lot of games! My point is really about the kind of vitriolic, broad-brush comments I get on here from time to time. If you want to see my own criticisms of aspects of DS3, consider checking out my boss ranking video: ruclips.net/video/TXUElWl0SuE/видео.html
What really stands about between DS3 and ER is how the latter has a lot more branching combo paths. In DS3, when you see acombo starter, you know how the boss is going end the combo. In ER, they might do different folloups depending on you position relative to them.
Hey Jermagerg, I just want to say thanks for making videos like this that discuss the mechanics of these games in an intelligent way, they're interesting to watch and the discussions they create are always a pleasure to take part in.
Although I disagree with some of your conclusions in other videos, I still absolutely appreciate you actually bringing something new to the general discussion. These videos are amazing man.
Super solid video. I don't think DS3 combat is bad and I have never thought that. Hopefully I've never came off that way. I just think ER is better, as it should be it is a sequel after all. Also, it is only better BECAUSE it builds on a strong foundation that was laid by the games that came before. This has always been my point when people try to draw distinctions between the two games as they will often paint this picture that DS3 combat is much better for X, Y or Z reasons and just as you highlighted in the video ER doesn't really do much that DS3 didn't. It has simply expanded upon a lot of what was already there. Delays are heavily present in DS3, so are reaction checks, long combos, AoE attacks, reactive AI and combo branching ECT. I guess my point was always that ER is just a more refined DS3. Of course, no one is obligated to agree and refinement can also been seen as a negative depending on a person's tastes so it is definitely still a matter of preference at to what a person prefers.
I'm genuinely tired of people who shit on Elden Ring or Dark Souls because they love the other, you don't have to like both games but there's no reason to attack either or the people who love them. Sorry for the rant.
but some things are facts for example - elden ring has a big problem with shitty, repetetive dungeons and optional bosses and thats why i like ds more. It may not be a big deal for someone else but it definitely is for me. We can "shit" on the games just don't shit on each other
Looking back on DS1, are bosses like Quelaag, Bell Gargoyles, and Manus less advanced than DS3 and Elden Ring? Absolutely. But for me as a first time souls player, figuring out how to manage the Gargoyle gank by using their fire breath to my advantage, or dodging Quelaag’s combos, or using positioning to avoid Manus’ wombo combo instead of just dodging through it, gave me a lot of satisfaction. After seeing the “Victory Achieved” message, and ringing the first bell of awakening, I still felt immense satisfaction as though I had overcome a huge challenge. And honestly that’s what I play souls games for. So to me I agree that you don’t need to have a super complex system to be fun.
Great video! I think the increase in boss complexity has far more to do with From’s designers getting more experienced, getting more time/resources, and improving their workflow more than any technological improvement. There’s nothing that Elden Ring bosses do now that wasn’t possible computationally/systemically when Ds3 was developed. As far as computer programs go Elden Ring/Dark Souls bosses actually fairly simple in grand scheme of things.
Technological improvements doesn’t always mean computers are powerful enough to do something they couldn’t in the past, could also just better tooling. I’m not a game designer but I’ve been a software engineer for over a decade and I can tell you 10 years ago there are things that used to take 1 week that can now be done in 1 hour and it’s nothing to do with AI or having access to a more powerful computer, it’s literally just better tooling / cloud technology / SaaS
i didnt know this was a conversation. pontiff, dancer, twin princes, demon princes, friede, nameless king, midir, gael, dragonslayer armor, and gundyr are all so fun and most are easily elden ring level. i played ds3 after elden ring and there was a long time where i liked ds3 more because of how fun the combat system is. i know some people think its dumb bc its just “dodge-R1 simulator” but idk man its just so satisfying to get in the flow in ds3
R1 simulator is a garbage argument anyway. You can R1 any of these games. Maybe 3 makes it easier (debatable imo) to do that but by no means is r2 not useful or even just fun to do. These games don't exactly ask of you to have an overly optimized fighting strategy.
For me DS3 and ER differ on two main factors; the difficulty and the timing. Therefore I consider useless for DS3 and ER fans to compare the combat , at least related to bosses better on an objective standpoint. DS3 is completely meant to be satisfactory while keeping up a good challenge, and overall both skilled and not skilled players; as the skill floor and the skill ceiling does not change very much. DS3 feels like a dance, where you dance against your enemy until one of you collapse to the floor. DS3 combat is satisfactory because from the moment you enter to a boss arena you just need to keep up the flow with no big presure overall. Elden Ring to other side, change these things a lot, and not look up for a satisfactory combat, but a rewarding combat. A combat where the skill floor and the skill ceiling changes a lot, and when both you and your opponent can do tactics to try to defeat echother. These fights feels like a duel, where the player would need to use what they have at their disposal to defeat the menance. ER combat is rewarding because its incentived and very often fun to use other things apart of an standard moveset (aka combat expresion). Seeing this, I don't feel that is any kind of objetivity, just conclusions of choosing which you happen to enjoy more.
Was about to comment- ‘I wonder when Joseviktor4099 gonna arrive to share his thoughts’. Little do I know that you’d been here all Along already. Might aswell sub to you at this point
for what it's worth: the combo flowcharting in DS3 feels a little wonky at times. baiting out the end of a given combo tree isn't nearly as consistent in DS3 as it is in ER, as certain DS3 bosses just don't finish their combos even when you're standing in front of them, point blank range. this became very obvious to me while fighting dragonslayer armor at SL1, as he has a few combos upward of 3 hits in length, which he'd at times interrupt with no input from my end-as i stood in front of him within sniffing range. in contrast, with near 100% consistency, margit/morgott can be baited into giving you specific responses through good positioning and roll directionality. however-this doesn't detract from the experience _too_ much, as at the end of the day the DS3 SL1 run is still one of my favorites within from's lineup.
Excellent point. This is specially annoying when trying to beat bosses hitless with a big weapon. For Nameless King or Gael phase 3 your only openings are at the end of their combos... which they don't like to finish for some reason. It becomes a waiting game.
Imo it's definitely good, it's the best in the trilogy(unless you like the heavy style of the previous games more), the reason for most of this hate against DS3 combat is actually a response for those shitty ER complaints mostly coming from people who used DS3 to hate on the game and now people use ER to hate on DS3 the same way. the problem with all these people is that they can't separate two games from each other. DS3 combat is good and it works with DS3 bosses, and ER combat is good and it works with ER bosses, however most people didn't understand that back then cause they played the game with DS3 mindset and refused to accept that they're not the same game and they have different design philosophies. this wasn't their fault at first cause these games are so similar but even now there are so many people that won't accept the fact that Elden Ring is a different game with different mindset because they have to do more than roll/attack and they CAN do more than roll/attack. this is the case for those people who hate on fast paced and so called "Modern Souls" too, at the end they can't like different systems and design choices(when implemented properly). but unfortunately the company can't make the same game forever, if you don't like their approach, if you prefer heavy combat over the fast paced combat, gimmick bosses over dynamic bosses or build variety over one weapon, that's completely fine. but ffs don't call change "bad game design" and spread misinformation and make a video essay about it instead of analyzing the game based on its own systems. I like both DS3 and ER bosses and combat, although naturally ER has more complex and evolved combat and I like it more, but that's not a reason to hate on previous games combat. and I have issues with both of them cause none of these games are perfect.
So well-put, I felt great after reading your comment, I love it. It's why I was so vehemently against those nostalgic Souls fanboys that use DS3 in order to disprove every great thing Elden Ring did with its combat system lol.
@@josephbulkin9222 idk really, maybe cause those games are more recent (DS3, BB, Sekiro) and Ds3 is the most similar to ER. I like Ds1 more than all of them too but I actually don't like comparing these games.
@@sahandr7801 I played dark souls in 2019 when I was 16, instead of any of its successors. You wanna know why? It was because its the only game that allows you to take it slow, to use a slow knight build with a simple sword and a simple shield. The only game that doesnt force you to dodge the attacks that happen faster than I can react to them? They dont want to make the same game forever? Then why do they keep taking from Bloodborne and Ds3, then? I liked Slow Souls, because it felt like my kind of game.
Dude! I am so happy that you made this video. Thank you for defending Dark Souls 3 Man! ! ❤️ 😊 Its not about been the best ones but about a player's perspective and personal taste. 100% Agree with your points on here . 👏 👏 👏
Ds3 was my first souls game, and after going back to the older games like ds2 and 1 as well as playing the future games, like sekiro and elden. It became clear to me that ds3 doesnt have flawed bosses infact the bosses are great, its just less options when it comes to spicying up the rhythmic dance, and not just compared to future games, but compared to older games as well. Ds1 doesnt have alot of s and its equip load is pretty steep for light rolls, this creates more playstyle options, with poise and slower movement. Plus stamina management was a bigger deal, pair that with lack of s, positioning is even more important, as opposed to ds3 where rolling into the attack 8/10 times is always the solution, i usually play locked off so its easier to perform this with sprinting. Ds2 has many of the same systems as ds1, tho u can improve the s, the stamina management is still there and playing on sl1 shows how much importance positioning and stamina management is, since s are low af. Ds2 also has nice interplay with its light heavy attacks thats actually present in all other souls games as well except ds3. Its the heavy to light combo, in ds2 its flipped and its the light to heavy combo instead. Back steps also have s, so skilled players can show off using this since the timing is tight. Bloodborne is a different beast, i actually think its combat systems are poorly implemented, idk if u have played it yet, so ill just stick to basics, its heavies have to land behind an enemies back to trigger a back stab, usefull for quick alot of bosses, the attacks fluidly merge between heavys and lights and have also have transformation combo attacks that give a variety of options, the game has the limb break mechanic, a precursor to elden ring's stance break, it requires u to position to specific larger bosses body parts where once the limb is broken it stuns the boss for a while as well as making it so any further attacks on that limb take extra damage, the rally system is also there. Some other things that im honestly just too lazy to write up on, similarly too lazy to comment on sekiro so imma wrap it up it. Ds3 is lacking the interplay with heavy and light attacks, running heavy attacks are beyond useless and actully a detrimental to any play, the game bearly has a use for its heavies, weapon arts are too expensive and weak to bother using, Rolls are standardised so futher homogenization of playstyles. Magic is mid at best and the really intresting spells are in dlc, some are still pretty neat like farron flash sword and dart but they can be too weak. Elden ring was able to fix alot of ds3's short coming by adding more offensive options, bringing back light heavy combo, ash of wars are now too strong and op not to use now, the stance break encourages heavies and chraged heavies as well as an agressive playstyle. Jump attacks as well as they can be great gap closers as well as give u s, so similar to back step s in ds2, skilled players here can use jump s to show off. Shields are no longer defensive and now can be used aggressively, intentionally blocking to get the gaurd counter attacks, spells in average being faster to cast and stonger and lastly torrent can also add some novel open world combat. Non of ds3 bosses are bad, they are greatly designed for the combat in the game, but the its combat itself thats lacking in some places. Also great job on the video, like that u actually use stats for ur arguments, must've been alot of work. Take care
@rigorm136 yeah I actually am not that great at optimising, I did do a pure magic in ds3, it was fun but up until mid game, they just didn't feel that great, they got better near the end tho, good damage and variety of spells to use. And honestly magic being mid in ds3 is not a new take, it's fairly common, there's many factors like its linear level design that hampers build creativity, something that ds1 and ds2 did a better job with, and the fact that ds3 is probably the most well balanced game, so the chance of getting over powered magic is indeed much harder compared to ds1 ds2 or even elden ring
@@rigorm136 What you mean optimizing your build? Is leveling Up optimizing your build? Because for me optimizing your build is using the best Talismans, buffs, and stuff in order to delete the Boss as fast as possible.
This might be a weird request, but a thing I miss from DS3 that isn't in Elden Ring are the multiple grunts, oomphs, and others sounds that humanoid bosses would make back in DS3. Not only did these give the bosses an extra layer of telegraphing, but they also added so much personality and character, like Gaels "huffs" or Pontiff Sulyvanhs angry grunts. The humanoid bosses in Elden Ring are so... silent in comparison. It only feels like they make sounds during very specific and soldom instances like in ripostes or special attacks.
In terms of combat, Elden does offer more options, but sadly most people end up spamming the 1 thing that works well, especially with the increase of difficulty of the DLC. I feel like the combat in itself is very good but that a lot of the bosses forces the player to play the most efficient style wich ends up usually being spamming that one attack that works a lot (usually an Ash of War, like Lion's Claw). Wich I find frustrating especially when trying to have a proper debate on game design and being told "nuh uh skill issue" by people who almost didn't interacted with the Boss' moveset and flow. Really liked your factual analysis of the game and its bosses. It puts everything back into perspective for a much more precise comparison. EDIT : (Not saying that people are playing the game wrong, they bought it and as long they abuse things agains other players they do whatever they want. Bragging about killing a boss in 2 tries and then saying it's a perfect game... much less appreciated.)
sure, but the bosses dont force you into using ashes of war or specific playstyles. except maybe rykard, but thats a gimmick. and yeah the people spamming skill issue dont add much to the discussion indeed
@@glisteninggames2981 felt a lot of times that (maybe skill issue tho) if I didn't used the "powerfull thing" it would just make the fight tedious and not very interesting. Bayle comes to my mind, as I still can't imagine beating him without poisebreaking, especially the P2, which AoE's makes melee builds a torture unless you stun the boss for half the fight Edit : remembered the existence of Foreskin Duo and the sleep pots, I know it's possible, and technically not that hard to do it without, but goddamnit it's an atrocious without using any kind of cheese
Very impressive analysis. Concerning the delayed attacks, I think the perceived difference between DS3 and Elden Ring may also originate from Elden Rings deviations from the rythm of the fight (that you also kinda grazed) rather than just being different in length. DS3 is very meticulous about consistancy in that regard, for example even Pontiffs crossed swords combo at 11:41 could probably be described in a bunch of quarter and eighths notes, while Elden Rings combos don't feel like they could, if that makes sense. Even if there is a delay in DS3 I just need to guess the right "beat" it will be resolved on, while in Elden Ring I feel like it is arbitrary or based on positioning (like Margits infamous delay for example). This makes DS3s delayed attacks much less noticible in my opinion and I think that needs to be taken into account when analyzing delays in the two games. Of course this is subjective, but for me the rythm or lack thereof feels more relevant than the raw durations of the delays.
I'm not a musician so IDK if I'm explaining this properly as I don't really understand time signatures but I've found that often times in ER when something feels off rhythm it's a matter of it being the players turn to attack. So with Margit as you mentioned if I just stand and wait for the swing to come out yes it feels off rhythm but if I attack during that delay then it feels like me landing my attack makes up for the lost beat if that makes sense. That's just my experience but it feels more rhythmic when I'm doing stuff like this, even more so than in DS3. It actually feels quite similar to Sekiro however the issue is that it's quite difficult to learn to play this way and one tiny mistake can often interrupt the tempo which can be difficult to fall back into if you have a tendency to want to disengage to heal for example.
@@BBQcheeseYou explained it properly, no worries. I'd probably describe it as the "flow of battle" (I hope I'm not misrepresenting your concept here) and I agree, but it's not necessarily what I mean: a lot of the pre-Elden Ring attacks were literally on beat (sometimes, as in the video, even synched to the actual music), so even when there was a delay, you would have a pretty good idea when precisely the attack would come. Nameless Kings lightning strike delay for example would only fool you once and the next time you would know to just roll a beat later (or, you know, a double or half or whatever, depending on your arbitrarily defined beat, but not a crazy fraction is the point). In Elden Ring the rythm plays less of a role and you have to learn every delay by itself (or, because a lot of the attacks are designed to rollcatch you, you can often use that as a mental aide, it's hard to call that rythmic though). I don't want to hyperfocus on Margits attack because it's really not very representative of the rest of the delays in Elden Ring, and because - as you say - it does have a pretty solid attack window in there, but it's easy to illustrate the point on it, because its delay is continuously variable and therefore can't be on beat most of the time. It's not about the beats missing attacks, but the attacks missing beats, to overcondense it a little. I love both combat systems though and I get why you'd find the flow easier to get into with some Elden Ring bosses. In the end, even though there are some trends, the desgin philosophies are more similar than some people pretend and ERs DLC once again introduced a lot of rythmic bosses too...
For me even though I agree with all the points you make, I still find it a shame that those merits are present in some other games sometimes to greater effect, Bloodborne being where a lot of elements now staples in their combat and boss design took their next step particularly, but it leaned on the frantic side, while Sekiro being where they refined that rhythmic dance to the extreme. Essentially DS3 ended up being the jack of all trades master of none, the transitory point with identity issues. Where it sits on the spectrum between predictable rhythm vs frantic rush is up to the individual's preference to decide if that appeals to them ofc. Although I still love its bosses nonetheless, its areas are where I especially get bored on replay which is a problem made worse by lack of options in the early game due to the world's linear layout, but that's unrelated to the combat I suppose. If I had to specify issues I have with the combat, it'd be the poor balancing to the toolkit the player has as R2's are rarely worth doing, and most weapons have skills not worth using which makes R1's the most viable to use nearly all the time, and I'd also say I dislike how loose rolling feels. The combat feel in DS3 was satisfying in many ways but rolling lost all weight from past Souls games even with midroll. ER largely maintained the same frame data but simply reeling back the roll distance and interpolating the rotation better resulted in way better game feel lol. I also dislike how gutted spellcasting felt. The way it's gated with the linear progression was bad in of itself but the fact most of the time melee is just better to use made it feel especially pointless honestly. The game really shines when you're an STR chad though, that's for sure.
I agreed with pretty much everything you said in this comment, but what you said about spellcasting especially struck a chord. I did a sorcery playthrough recently, and I was very disappointed with how lame it was. There ~4 offensive scorceries that don't suffer from having either extremely deficient DPS or FP efficiency. Even with 61 Int, a +10 Court Scorcer's staff, the Crown of Dusk, and both Dragon rings, Farron Flashsword still does less damage than a +10 Crystal Scimitar. That's just sad. And to say nothing of how stingy DS3 is with its attunement slots.
One of the most frustrating things I heard about the game from some souls fans when it was new is that it is bad because it is 'too easy'. You know what the last game in the trilogy I played that I found easy? Dark Souls 1. Dark Souls 2, being the first souls game I played, happened to also be the hardest for me initially. Sure it says something about the game not changing up enough things for it to be as fun of an experience as it could've been for returning players, but there's that, and people deciding the whole game is bad cause it was easy for them.
I've been watching allot of analysis videos of ER since the DLC drop and something I have yet to hear in any of the videos I've watched is about an interview with Miyazaki somewhere around the time of the network test where he describes his shift to a more rhythmic based combat system, taking Dancer as an example of a boss that attacks on off-beats to mirror a dance. Whether a person prefers this shift in the series I think is up to taste but it's worth noting that it's an intentional design choice. I am looking forward to the next video on ER bc I found myself disengaged with ER pretty heavily despite being very into the boss fights of BB and somewhat DS3, ER I think just came at a bad time in my life so I was sour on it.
dark souls 3 with the valorheart is a really wild combination of offense and defense, since you'd ideally time your windups to catch attacks with the block frames sadly the lower stability of the shield prevents you from turning it into an ersatz sekiro experience, but it made friede's first phase a lot more enjoyable for me
I think that half the people who say dark souls 3 combat is boring haven't fought Pontiff, it's not because they're bad but because the Dark Souls 3 early game is boring as hell. Or maybe I'm wrong and can't fully comprehend the idea of someone hating Dark Souls 3 because I'm not chronically online.
im a person who thinks ds3 combat is boring, i dont go online to blindly hate on it though. pontiff and dancer are the only base game bosses i enjoy. those are the exceptions id say
@@VivianAckers Twin Princes are great but they're the penultimate boss. Pontiff Sulyvahn is the point where Dark Souls 3 gets good, though that's subjective. Abyss Watchers and Iudex Gundyr are the only great early game bosses, though Gundyr is a bit of a stretch for "great" because of the second phase, and Abyss Watchers isn't exactly an "early game fight." Trying to speak as objectively as possible, Lothric Castle is when Dark Souls 3 gets constantly good with bosses, and it's Dark Souls 3's biggest problem.
I never really knew there was rivalry here. I mean I knew some tastes were different, and even Darksouls 2 has its super fans, but still between these 2 is kind of shocking as they're my two favorites from all the soulsborn stuff. (A tad ironic, since the one thing I kept hearing about Dark Souls 3 is how linear it is, and Elden Ring is clearly the whole opposite)
I think DS3 bosses are about as complex as Elden Ring bosses in some cases, especially DLC bosses. I think the reason DS3 may feel easier is because bosses tend to do very little damage compared to Elden Ring or Sekiro and have less health too. For instance, Soul of Cinder wouldn't be out of place in Elden Ring and probably has more moves than Radagon in his first phase alone; however, if you have put 30-40 points into vigor, you need to be hit about 3-5 times in a row for him to kill you, and if you're healing inbetween hits, realistically, you can beat him without learning his moveset and just hit trading. You can't really do this in Elden Ring. I find if I really limit my vigor in DS3, it becomes quite challenging.
idk man i just put on dragoncrest greatshield talisman, holy resist talisman and potentially a boiled crab. and i can tank like 6 hits from radagon at 60 vigor
@@glisteninggames2981 Perhaps, but most bosses, from what I recall, can 1-2 shot players in Elden Ring even with 60 vigour. I think Melania's grab does 90-95% of your health at 60 vigor + dragoncrest talisman. It is true it is easily avoidable, but I don't recall any boss in DS3 doing as much damage to a fully upgraded (with respect to health) character. By comparison, I think Soul of Cinder does less than 50% health with his grab in phase 2 to 40 vigour character.
@glisteninggames2981 Yes, but there is a big spike in difficulty between the ashen capital progression wise compared to the rest of the game which can be pretty brutal especially if unprepared or encountered at an earlier level, the spike up specifically in health and damage is pretty crazy. Elden Ring can be such a completely different experience in that regard because of its open world nature, so it makes sense why the spike has to be there, to at least give everyone some semblance of challenge. Yet I know it was very frustrating for me who likes playing these games blind my first playthrough.
@@braynaguilar8567 i havent beaten SoC yet ( still on my first playthrough ) but i remember dragonslayer armour 2-3 shotting me and i was level 70 ( dont remember what my vigor was at the time, but was decently high ) most ER bosses didnt 2 or 3 shot me, at 60 vigor with basic damage mitigation. with most i could tank at least 4. malenia's grab does a lot of damage, but its her highest damaging attack and not her average output
@@dauntethomas5594 yeah i get that. my point for the difficulty spike though; by the time you get to mountaintops, a lot of the enemies are reused from older areas. you should be accustomed to their movesets by then, so them having more health and damage shouldn't change that much. but yeah fire giant does a fkton of damage regardless for example
Have you ever done a magic playthrough of ds3 Jermergerg? Faith, Pyromancy, and Sorcery are all super fun to use. Faith is my personal favorite because certain talismans have a weapon art which basically gives you temporary passive poise when you cast which is especially useful since lightning miracles (except for lightning arrow) are meant to be used at close range to get the 67% damage boost.
It's not just the amount of delayed attacks and how long they last, but also their swing speed. Many delayed attacks in Dark Souls 3 like Nameless King's attacks can be easily rolled through reaction speed alone. This is not the case in Elden Ring where most delayed attacks have a swing speed so fast they're unreactable and must be memorized. A decent player with a decent build can beat most Dark Souls 3 bosses in their first few attempts. In Elden Ring a decent player with a traditional build, now considered a challenge run, is forced to take dozens of attempts memorizing the boss' moveset; something they might not enjoy or have the time for. This is why Dark Souls 3's combat is multiple magnitudes superior to me than Elden Ring's combat which I despise outside of a few enemies like Crucible Knights and Erdtree Avatars.
I really don’t think this is true. Almost every Elden ring delayed attack can be reaction rolled as well. There is almost always a tell for when the delay is over.
@@thehelpfulwalnut7440 Define "tell". For me the tell is when the swing starts but then it's already too late. Just look at Margit. His infamous delayed attack practically teleports his cane from the wind up stance to the ground in one frame. That's not something you can react to; you'll have to memorize when prior to the swing to roll. No Dark Souls 3 delayed attack is that stupidly fast.
@@RaulBetancourtCthe problem with your argument is I personally have dodged that attack and many other delayed attacks on reaction dozens of times, so you saying you HAVE to memorize it is complete bullshit, at least for most of them. Some of the delayed jump attacks I can agree with, because the confusing physics of when they come down are genuinely hard to deal with. But saying you "cannot" react to attacks gets categorically disproven when other people do, in fact, react to it Also, as has been stated a thousand times, you're NOT supposed to roll that attack from Margit. You're supposed to stay close and rotate around him so he just misses. Doing this you can get an entire light attack combo and he guaranteed cannot hit you
@@frazfrazfrazfraz the way you can dodge the attack is by dodging according to the tell prior to the swing, not the swing itself, which is the problem. You would only know about the precise tell after repeated attempts and memorization.
@@RaulBetancourtC you keep just saying things dude. You can literally see the swing start to come down and dodge it on reaction, it's as simple as that. Maybe you need a few attempts to learn that the game plays differently than ds3 and stop playing it like it's ds3, but you can absolutely react to the swing coming down, it does not "teleport"
Elden Ring GREATLY suffers from fat roll syndrome, the same that cursed dark souls 2. I mean the light load roll in dark souls 3 is like triple the distance of Elden rings rolling, it’s insane. I’m pretty sure dark souls 1 roll has more I-frames. If Elden Ring had the fluid movement of dark souls 3 I would enjoy it SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more. I feel like the short rolls is this games greatest flaw, hands down. The only time I ever put down Elden Ring for a break, is when I’m frustrated by the terrible movement in this game, which is OFTEN, especially after re visiting dark souls 3. If there was ds3 movement in Elden Ring, I would virtually never put the game down. It’s this games greatest flaw, hands down. It’s like if ds3 had the dual weapon system that Elden Ring has, it would just make it perfect. EDIT: the light load roll in ds3 REALLY was insane. We took ds3 for granted
Thank god someone giving ds3 the love it deserves. DS3 combat is still good. I like the feel of it a lot even more than elden ring though I can't explain why. These game aren't hard after the first playthrough so being enjoyable to do is very important. I think it's the lack of stagger where it's more just a continuous barrage of attacks until you beat the boss. Don't get me wrong staggering is very rewarding but the uninterrupted dance is just nice. Also do you have a thesaurus next to you while you record?
I wouldn't say that the rolling style of combat is that bad even tbh, but I think the complexity of Elden rings combat is more replay able than Dark Souls 3. When approaching a boss for a second time you're more likely to look to more unique ways of dodging that hit, let's say you wanted to use wing stance on Godfrey to avoid the ground stomps. Thats a completely different approach than someone who just rolled or jumped it. It adds a lot more depth than you would realize. Dark souls 3 by comparison is a phenomenal game, it's in my top 3 of from games right above bloodborne. However, on replays the most complex it will get is just walking around the boss or parrying the boss. Both are interesting options but aren't really that comparable to Elden Ring. Now I would like to say that DS3 combat isn't bad at all, it's great. However, I would refrain from calling it equal to Elden Rings combat system. Although to reinforce this notion I would compare it to something like Bloodborne, where your dash is the only response on your first playthrough and most likely it wouldn't deepen on your second. So yeah, there is a legit argument that DS3 > Bloodborne in terms of combat expression.
All good points! I personally love rolling so I never really get tired of it, but I get why some people do. And I definitely think there's much more room for inventiveness on subsequent replays with Elden Ring. So this video isn't meant to place DS3 above Elden Ring by any means. Merely suggesting that it brings something different to the table, but that difference doesn't equal deficiency in my book :)
I like DS3 bosses better than Elden Ring, sure only using light attacks is always the best option, but the bosses are much fairer and better desighned imo. Mind you as a game I like Elden Ring better, the world is so much bigger, the things you as the player can do is so much more varied. The build variety is absolutely insane. 1:17 the lack of this dance feel really made me enjoy Elden Ring less 4:47 some elden ring delays are nasty though like the boss looking in the middle of an attack chain like he's returning to default pose. Then there is bosses having different attack chains which start the same way. Being able to change their attack in response to what a player does
there is a dance to ER bosses, its just more complex than in ds3. and bosses switching up combos with the same tell animation has been a thing since at least ds1 dlc
@@viorp5267 Wrong. You haven't learned a single boss in the game and it shows. Imagine not calling this a dance: ruclips.net/video/2VdoP2gh1h8/видео.html
There is no need to be yapping, Elden Ring combat more complicated, more hard. DS3 combat is less complicated, easier. Problem solved, go play what you want but this doesn't change which is good or bad.
The amount of instant attacks on bosses + the lack of unique looking telegraphs (basically a lot of bosses attacks looks way too similar) ruin it for me. And well, the stamina being smaller than even a Rune Level 1 character in ER is bad too.
@@Arfadoz in DS3 you just get the flow of the battle and you can dodge 95% of times, in er it feels to meta - analyzing and memorizing move after move breaks me out of immersion
The only instantaneous attacks I can think of is Oceiros charge and maybe SoC Pyro phase. Oceiros is jank, though you can still counter it with positioning, SoC can be easily outspaced. This is a much worse issue in ER, even dlc has instant phase transition on Romina, Metyr lasers and phase transition as well. Also never had issue with unique looking telegraphs, there's nothing even nowhere near as bad as Draconic tree sentinel in ds3 when it comes to that.
Im not saying one is objectively better than the other but er completely lost me, mainly with its boss design. For the life of me i could not get into it. If this is the path fromsoft decides to go down im afraid ill have to stop playing their games. I mean, i already barely play games at all these days but still. Beat ds3 4 times btw
Yeah everyone has different preferences, so your perspective is totally valid! I found the DLC bosses very much had a DS3 feel in some sense for what it's worth.
Elden Ring's gameplay is meant to be accessible to inexperienced new souls players, and the bosses are therefore torn between two playstyles. The newer player, or perhaps merely the type of player who is willing to use every advantage they can get their hands on, will be able to beat the boss without really actually *learning* the boss but *surviving* and possibly *overpowering* it. And the 'Hardcore' player who seeks total mechanical mastery, and typically desires the utmost challenge, will be able to get the mighty challenge they desire. Despite their difficulty, the bosses aren't typically impossible or too unfair on a mechanical level, and therefore can be learned hitless and be mastered by the 'Hardcore' player like a challenge run player or someone like Ongbal and the like. But there's a middle-way type of Souls player who suffers from this design: the type who isn't willing to ascetically strip themselves of all advantage to get a full grip of the boss, but still seeks a comprehensible challenge. This player probably won't use many buffs if any at all, and will probably not use Spirit Summons. Bosses are balanced around the abundance and strengths of the new loot and combat options. Mainly through extremely far and tight gap-closer attacks, wide and repeated AOEs, and extremely tricky attacks (possibly perceived as frame traps at a first glance, but are probably a problem of positioning) woven into lengthy and easily overwhelming combos. The bosses also have combos where they make themselves impossible to be hit by conventional melee means, and typically just serve as "their turn" to attack no matter what. These bosses often do not have a stagger animation (I do not mean posture break, but a conventional stagger after getting hit) and therefore are not very manipulable by the player. Most bosses cannot be acted upon but only reacted to. This can make the middle-way player feel as if they're either merely surviving a nail-bitingly difficult encounter where they're almost bound to get hit no matter what, or that they accidentally and unsatisfyingly tore the enemy apart before they could pull all their tricks out their sleeves. Either way, an experience beyond the reach of your mastery. You failed to truly learn the boss because you might not be good enough to, or you refused to empower yourself enough to trivialize them, so learning them was not necessary in the process of beating them. I have unfortunately never really learned Morgott because his HP was too low. I think that if they ever make a game as big and ambitious as Elden Ring again, that they should be unabashedly inaccessible to the extent that it keeps the gameplay streamlined and consistent. I also think that they should experiment with mechanics that allow the player to expand their arsenal of methods to counter the enemy in a way which increases the complexity of gameplay. Possibly tied to the open world exploration in that Elden Ring way. Especially if the enemies are going to be designed with increasing levels of complexity, difficulty, and spectacle. Sekiro as an example: had several movement mechanics and combat tools, that acted as either staples of the combat itself or tertiary options which could be creatively used to one's advantage in the heat of battle. Bloodborne had parry as a consistent part of the arsenal, and each weapon typically had an ample amount of options mid combat. Elden Ring is Dark Souls 4 combat stretched thin to fit a pace more reminiscent of Bloodborne or Sekiro, and the measures used to cope with this made the end product ultimately less satisfying and less streamlined than the predecessors which influenced it the most.
just like sekiro and bloodborne, this game gives you many more base mechanics to keep up with boss aggression. its not dark souls 4. in ER, you can jump over boss attacks to come down with a jump heavy, and duck under a possible followup with the recovery. positioning / strafing / spacing is way more relevant for getting openings, crouching can be used to crouch under attacks and do crouch pokes, for example with midra and romina. you can also hit bosses during windups of delayed attacks to get an extra opening, or you can choose to wait to regen stamina. you can safely hit any boss while they attack, if you do it well the complexity thing is an overgeneralization. a lot of ER bosses have increased complexity yes, but there are also so many bosses in this game, including remembrances fights, that are not mechanically harder than ds3 bosses for example. this is a list of the ER trophy bosses that i would consider to be on the same level of complexity as the average late game / dlc ds3 boss. or even a lower level of complexity. and this DOESNT even include ER dlc godrick, red wolf, rennala, leonine misbegotten, ancestor spirits, elemer of the briar, makar. individual godskins are quite complex, but not too far off. sewer mohg, astel, dragonkin soldier of nokstella, fire giant and placidusax are very cinematic but simple mechanically that are a loooot of bosses. a lot of ds3 bosses didnt stagger on hit either. idk i think your comment largely overblows the issues you may have with the game
@@glisteninggames2981 Godskins, Placidusax, and Fire giant are riddled with typical Elden Ring problems as well. Fire Giant and Placidusax actually have unique problems as giant bosses in ER. And just because there are exceptions to the overtuned bosses does not mean that Elden Ring escapes my general critique of how players are typically encouraged to encounter the game. The jump also does not help Elden Ring's case particularly, because despite it being objectively useful in countering enemy attacks, it's still typically unintuitive to use as a reliable form of evasion for an experienced Souls player. There are some obvious cases where jump makes sense on the fly, but otherwise it is usually unclear or seemingly arbitrary. Ducking is an even worse example of this. These are not clear enough mechanics to compensate for my critique thus far, and they definitely scream 'Dark Souls 4'. The staggering on hit thing is actually really clear and I can't believe you don't see what I'm getting at. Yes some bosses in DS3 were unstaggerable, but almost every big strong and fast major boss in ER will take a fully charged Colossal Weapon R2 to the face and not flinch once. While this isn't the case with Pontiff or Dancer, where if you hit them with enough poise damage, they will reel back, allowing for a whole different dimension of gameplay where well-placed slow attacks are rewarded, and Heavy Strength builds are can be viable with even a decently aggressive playstyle.
@@aramkaizer7903 if you want to consider Elden Ring as Dark Souls 4, that's fine with me. because it fits perfectly in my argument. Game mechanics have never been explained well in souls games. We're talking about evasion methods here, so let's use dodge rolling as an example. DS1 never thaught you anything about dodge rolling. Didn't tell you about s during rolls, or that you're supposed to roll INTO boss attacks instead of away. Some attacks cant be rolled but have to be spaced or strafed, like Quelaag's explosion. So this has always been hilariously inconsistent and obtuse Why was it this way? Because the devs dont hold your hand; they want the player to carefully look at the options available when they encounter a problem, and try stuff out through trial and error. It would only make sense that a further installment to this series ( Dark Souls 4 aka Elden Ring ) has similar mechanics that the players need to experiment with to get the hang of Also, isn't this exactly what you wanted? gonna quote you here "I also think that they should experiment with mechanics that allow the player to expand their arsenal of methods to counter the enemy in a way which increases the complexity of gameplay." That is exactly what jumping and the other mechanics I pointed out do I don't think Godskins have issues outside of their duo, fire giant def has issues, and placi is just kinda uninteresting mechanically to me. You didn't reason this any further, so ill just leave it there I think my arguments compensated for your criticisms perfectly, dont see why not - "The bosses also have combos where they make themselves impossible to be hit by conventional melee means" : again, what I said in my first reply - "Bosses too complex for the average player" : There are tens of bosses that arent mechanically complex for people to enjoy if theyre not into complex stuff - Didn't add enough movement combat mechanics" : Well I just named them and they change the combat by a lot. Stance breaks also - "Bosses don't have such a stagger animation" : Thanks to the mechanics I just pointed out, you get more openings for jump attacks and charged heavies. Which makes nearly any boss flinch a little, depending on the weapon - "Possibly tied to the open world exploration in that Elden Ring way" : Well, there is. Plenty of ashes of war in the open world that give you s for example. Bloodhounds step, Miriam's Vanishing, Blinkbolt, Vow of the Indomitable, various parry ashes that add projectiles or let you parry projectiles
@@aramkaizer7903 i get your point about staggers, ER bosses stagger less on average. only other point I didnt fully acknowledge is that these systems are unintuitive for the average souls player. sure, but i just responded why thats not a bad thing imo. i engaged with all of your other arguments, including quotes of stuff you said etc. i really dont see what i dont get man
@@traktorholik gaius charge is bad, but its telegraphed, reactable, and can be consistently avoided with medium load. lots of other base mechanics you can use to have an easier time dodging it as well. comparing it to something like dancer grab is more accurate imo. hippo hitboxes already got nerfed. oceiros charge is pretty much instant and has literally no telegraph lmao. whole fight is carried by the lore, dialogue and ost. would take gaius over him any day
i mostly dislike the gameplay of elden ring bosses, they mistake being overtuned for being better. nobody enjoys sitting back for 10 seconds while you wait for the boss to finish chimping out with their 20 hit combo "idiots admire complexity, geniuses admire simplicity." - Terry Davis
Elden Ring bosses arent overtuned and you dont have to wait for that long to attack a boss. There are a lot base mechanics that give you the opportunity to hit bosses safely while they attack - Jumping over boss attacks gives you the opportunity to come down with a jump heavy, and duck under a possible followup with the recovery - Positioning / strafing / spacing is way more relevant for getting openings and saving stamina - Crouching can be used to crouch under attacks and do crouch pokes, for example with midra and romina - Hitting bosses during windups of delayed attacks gives you an extra opening, or you can choose to wait to regen stamina Sure, ER bosses are more aggressive, but they give you a lot more tools to deal with it. Some ds3 bosses had a lot of very long combos too. Dancer, pontiff, friede phase 3... But again, both games are great, and its all personal preference after all
"sitting back" this mentality of "attacking only time I'm having fun" is so bizarre. No other game I can think of in any other genre where dodging is some thing put between the player and the fun.
Love the Pontiff parries, I'd encourage you to run more "expressive" builds in your gameplay footage over the naked roll/punish setups - Dark 3's most prominent criticism is the rolling/R1 spam you touched on, a criticism that is usually paired with footage that looks similar to your own - sort of proving the adverse. You'd better refute it by pairing more expressive combat with your analysis; show off a lighting knight throwing spears between Gael's openings or a spellblade blending Farron Flashsword into his swings, a Pyromancer tossing oil pots to enhance his fire element etc.
Yes. It sucks that, in the interest of a "pure" experience, people throw away almost every game mechanic and end up putting themselves in a weird challenge run. You're supposed to parry Pontiff. You're supposed to stagger Morgott when he's charging up his big rain of swords. You're supposed to reverse Genichiro's lightning. You're not supposed to let them cook.
Hey guys, for what it's worth, I by no means think the game is perfect! It's got plenty of issues, but so do a lot of games! My point is really about the kind of vitriolic, broad-brush comments I get on here from time to time. If you want to see my own criticisms of aspects of DS3, consider checking out my boss ranking video: ruclips.net/video/TXUElWl0SuE/видео.html
What really stands about between DS3 and ER is how the latter has a lot more branching combo paths. In DS3, when you see acombo starter, you know how the boss is going end the combo. In ER, they might do different folloups depending on you position relative to them.
One of the hollows before the aqueduct to undead burg had a ridiculous delayed attack that has a multi second windup then a flurry.
"Difficulty and complexity don't inherently make something better." What a Souls fanboy hears "I have a skill issue."
Hey Jermagerg, I just want to say thanks for making videos like this that discuss the mechanics of these games in an intelligent way, they're interesting to watch and the discussions they create are always a pleasure to take part in.
Thank YOU!
Although I disagree with some of your conclusions in other videos, I still absolutely appreciate you actually bringing something new to the general discussion. These videos are amazing man.
Super solid video.
I don't think DS3 combat is bad and I have never thought that. Hopefully I've never came off that way. I just think ER is better, as it should be it is a sequel after all. Also, it is only better BECAUSE it builds on a strong foundation that was laid by the games that came before. This has always been my point when people try to draw distinctions between the two games as they will often paint this picture that DS3 combat is much better for X, Y or Z reasons and just as you highlighted in the video ER doesn't really do much that DS3 didn't. It has simply expanded upon a lot of what was already there. Delays are heavily present in DS3, so are reaction checks, long combos, AoE attacks, reactive AI and combo branching ECT. I guess my point was always that ER is just a more refined DS3.
Of course, no one is obligated to agree and refinement can also been seen as a negative depending on a person's tastes so it is definitely still a matter of preference at to what a person prefers.
I'm genuinely tired of people who shit on Elden Ring or Dark Souls because they love the other, you don't have to like both games but there's no reason to attack either or the people who love them.
Sorry for the rant.
Preaching to the choir my friend!
Discussing Souls games is like discussing politics sometimes haha.
Agreed, my friend!. Enjoy things for what they are, It gives a better mentality tracking anything.
For real dude.
but some things are facts for example - elden ring has a big problem with shitty, repetetive dungeons and optional bosses and thats why i like ds more. It may not be a big deal for someone else but it definitely is for me. We can "shit" on the games just don't shit on each other
i love me some dark souls 3 defense! favourite and first souls game for myself
Looking back on DS1, are bosses like Quelaag, Bell Gargoyles, and Manus less advanced than DS3 and Elden Ring? Absolutely. But for me as a first time souls player, figuring out how to manage the Gargoyle gank by using their fire breath to my advantage, or dodging Quelaag’s combos, or using positioning to avoid Manus’ wombo combo instead of just dodging through it, gave me a lot of satisfaction. After seeing the “Victory Achieved” message, and ringing the first bell of awakening, I still felt immense satisfaction as though I had overcome a huge challenge. And honestly that’s what I play souls games for. So to me I agree that you don’t need to have a super complex system to be fun.
Great video!
I think the increase in boss complexity has far more to do with From’s designers getting more experienced, getting more time/resources, and improving their workflow more than any technological improvement.
There’s nothing that Elden Ring bosses do now that wasn’t possible computationally/systemically when Ds3 was developed.
As far as computer programs go Elden Ring/Dark Souls bosses actually fairly simple in grand scheme of things.
Technological improvements doesn’t always mean computers are powerful enough to do something they couldn’t in the past, could also just better tooling. I’m not a game designer but I’ve been a software engineer for over a decade and I can tell you 10 years ago there are things that used to
take 1 week that can now be done in 1 hour and it’s nothing to do with AI or having access to a more powerful computer, it’s literally just better tooling / cloud technology / SaaS
i didnt know this was a conversation. pontiff, dancer, twin princes, demon princes, friede, nameless king, midir, gael, dragonslayer armor, and gundyr are all so fun and most are easily elden ring level. i played ds3 after elden ring and there was a long time where i liked ds3 more because of how fun the combat system is. i know some people think its dumb bc its just “dodge-R1 simulator” but idk man its just so satisfying to get in the flow in ds3
R1 simulator is a garbage argument anyway. You can R1 any of these games. Maybe 3 makes it easier (debatable imo) to do that but by no means is r2 not useful or even just fun to do. These games don't exactly ask of you to have an overly optimized fighting strategy.
For me DS3 and ER differ on two main factors; the difficulty and the timing. Therefore I consider useless for DS3 and ER fans to compare the combat , at least related to bosses better on an objective standpoint.
DS3 is completely meant to be satisfactory while keeping up a good challenge, and overall both skilled and not skilled players; as the skill floor and the skill ceiling does not change very much. DS3 feels like a dance, where you dance against your enemy until one of you collapse to the floor. DS3 combat is satisfactory because from the moment you enter to a boss arena you just need to keep up the flow with no big presure overall.
Elden Ring to other side, change these things a lot, and not look up for a satisfactory combat, but a rewarding combat. A combat where the skill floor and the skill ceiling changes a lot, and when both you and your opponent can do tactics to try to defeat echother. These fights feels like a duel, where the player would need to use what they have at their disposal to defeat the menance. ER combat is rewarding because its incentived and very often fun to use other things apart of an standard moveset (aka combat expresion).
Seeing this, I don't feel that is any kind of objetivity, just conclusions of choosing which you happen to enjoy more.
Was about to comment- ‘I wonder when Joseviktor4099 gonna arrive to share his thoughts’. Little do I know that you’d been here all Along already. Might aswell sub to you at this point
for what it's worth: the combo flowcharting in DS3 feels a little wonky at times. baiting out the end of a given combo tree isn't nearly as consistent in DS3 as it is in ER, as certain DS3 bosses just don't finish their combos even when you're standing in front of them, point blank range.
this became very obvious to me while fighting dragonslayer armor at SL1, as he has a few combos upward of 3 hits in length, which he'd at times interrupt with no input from my end-as i stood in front of him within sniffing range. in contrast, with near 100% consistency, margit/morgott can be baited into giving you specific responses through good positioning and roll directionality.
however-this doesn't detract from the experience _too_ much, as at the end of the day the DS3 SL1 run is still one of my favorites within from's lineup.
Excellent point. This is specially annoying when trying to beat bosses hitless with a big weapon. For Nameless King or Gael phase 3 your only openings are at the end of their combos... which they don't like to finish for some reason. It becomes a waiting game.
Imo it's definitely good, it's the best in the trilogy(unless you like the heavy style of the previous games more), the reason for most of this hate against DS3 combat is actually a response for those shitty ER complaints mostly coming from people who used DS3 to hate on the game and now people use ER to hate on DS3 the same way.
the problem with all these people is that they can't separate two games from each other. DS3 combat is good and it works with DS3 bosses, and ER combat is good and it works with ER bosses, however most people didn't understand that back then cause they played the game with DS3 mindset and refused to accept that they're not the same game and they have different design philosophies. this wasn't their fault at first cause these games are so similar but even now there are so many people that won't accept the fact that Elden Ring is a different game with different mindset because they have to do more than roll/attack and they CAN do more than roll/attack. this is the case for those people who hate on fast paced and so called "Modern Souls" too, at the end they can't like different systems and design choices(when implemented properly). but unfortunately the company can't make the same game forever, if you don't like their approach, if you prefer heavy combat over the fast paced combat, gimmick bosses over dynamic bosses or build variety over one weapon, that's completely fine. but ffs don't call change "bad game design" and spread misinformation and make a video essay about it instead of analyzing the game based on its own systems.
I like both DS3 and ER bosses and combat, although naturally ER has more complex and evolved combat and I like it more, but that's not a reason to hate on previous games combat. and I have issues with both of them cause none of these games are perfect.
So well-put, I felt great after reading your comment, I love it. It's why I was so vehemently against those nostalgic Souls fanboys that use DS3 in order to disprove every great thing Elden Ring did with its combat system lol.
Well said
Why ds3? I like Ds1 more than that game, and no one uses the first game to compare.
@@josephbulkin9222 idk really, maybe cause those games are more recent (DS3, BB, Sekiro) and Ds3 is the most similar to ER. I like Ds1 more than all of them too but I actually don't like comparing these games.
@@sahandr7801 I played dark souls in 2019 when I was 16, instead of any of its successors. You wanna know why? It was because its the only game that allows you to take it slow, to use a slow knight build with a simple sword and a simple shield. The only game that doesnt force you to dodge the attacks that happen faster than I can react to them?
They dont want to make the same game forever? Then why do they keep taking from Bloodborne and Ds3, then?
I liked Slow Souls, because it felt like my kind of game.
Dude! I am so happy that you made this video. Thank you for defending Dark Souls 3 Man! ! ❤️ 😊 Its not about been the best ones but about a player's perspective and personal taste. 100% Agree with your points on here . 👏 👏 👏
Ds3 was my first souls game, and after going back to the older games like ds2 and 1 as well as playing the future games, like sekiro and elden.
It became clear to me that ds3 doesnt have flawed bosses infact the bosses are great, its just less options when it comes to spicying up the rhythmic dance, and not just compared to future games, but compared to older games as well.
Ds1 doesnt have alot of s and its equip load is pretty steep for light rolls, this creates more playstyle options, with poise and slower movement. Plus stamina management was a bigger deal, pair that with lack of s, positioning is even more important, as opposed to ds3 where rolling into the attack 8/10 times is always the solution, i usually play locked off so its easier to perform this with sprinting.
Ds2 has many of the same systems as ds1, tho u can improve the s, the stamina management is still there and playing on sl1 shows how much importance positioning and stamina management is, since s are low af. Ds2 also has nice interplay with its light heavy attacks thats actually present in all other souls games as well except ds3. Its the heavy to light combo, in ds2 its flipped and its the light to heavy combo instead. Back steps also have s, so skilled players can show off using this since the timing is tight.
Bloodborne is a different beast, i actually think its combat systems are poorly implemented, idk if u have played it yet, so ill just stick to basics, its heavies have to land behind an enemies back to trigger a back stab, usefull for quick alot of bosses, the attacks fluidly merge between heavys and lights and have also have transformation combo attacks that give a variety of options, the game has the limb break mechanic, a precursor to elden ring's stance break, it requires u to position to specific larger bosses body parts where once the limb is broken it stuns the boss for a while as well as making it so any further attacks on that limb take extra damage, the rally system is also there. Some other things that im honestly just too lazy to write up on, similarly too lazy to comment on sekiro so imma wrap it up it.
Ds3 is lacking the interplay with heavy and light attacks, running heavy attacks are beyond useless and actully a detrimental to any play, the game bearly has a use for its heavies, weapon arts are too expensive and weak to bother using, Rolls are standardised so futher homogenization of playstyles. Magic is mid at best and the really intresting spells are in dlc, some are still pretty neat like farron flash sword and dart but they can be too weak.
Elden ring was able to fix alot of ds3's short coming by adding more offensive options, bringing back light heavy combo, ash of wars are now too strong and op not to use now, the stance break encourages heavies and chraged heavies as well as an agressive playstyle. Jump attacks as well as they can be great gap closers as well as give u s, so similar to back step s in ds2, skilled players here can use jump s to show off. Shields are no longer defensive and now can be used aggressively, intentionally blocking to get the gaurd counter attacks, spells in average being faster to cast and stonger and lastly torrent can also add some novel open world combat.
Non of ds3 bosses are bad, they are greatly designed for the combat in the game, but the its combat itself thats lacking in some places.
Also great job on the video, like that u actually use stats for ur arguments, must've been alot of work. Take care
“Magic is mid at best” you would only say this if you don’t know how to optimize a build
@rigorm136 yeah I actually am not that great at optimising, I did do a pure magic in ds3, it was fun but up until mid game, they just didn't feel that great, they got better near the end tho, good damage and variety of spells to use.
And honestly magic being mid in ds3 is not a new take, it's fairly common, there's many factors like its linear level design that hampers build creativity, something that ds1 and ds2 did a better job with, and the fact that ds3 is probably the most well balanced game, so the chance of getting over powered magic is indeed much harder compared to ds1 ds2 or even elden ring
you guys optimize your build
@@JoseViktor4099 Yes. How else are you supposed to play?
@@rigorm136 What you mean optimizing your build? Is leveling Up optimizing your build?
Because for me optimizing your build is using the best Talismans, buffs, and stuff in order to delete the Boss as fast as possible.
This might be a weird request, but a thing I miss from DS3 that isn't in Elden Ring are the multiple grunts, oomphs, and others sounds that humanoid bosses would make back in DS3.
Not only did these give the bosses an extra layer of telegraphing, but they also added so much personality and character, like Gaels "huffs" or Pontiff Sulyvanhs angry grunts.
The humanoid bosses in Elden Ring are so... silent in comparison.
It only feels like they make sounds during very specific and soldom instances like in ripostes or special attacks.
In terms of combat, Elden does offer more options, but sadly most people end up spamming the 1 thing that works well, especially with the increase of difficulty of the DLC. I feel like the combat in itself is very good but that a lot of the bosses forces the player to play the most efficient style wich ends up usually being spamming that one attack that works a lot (usually an Ash of War, like Lion's Claw). Wich I find frustrating especially when trying to have a proper debate on game design and being told "nuh uh skill issue" by people who almost didn't interacted with the Boss' moveset and flow.
Really liked your factual analysis of the game and its bosses. It puts everything back into perspective for a much more precise comparison.
EDIT : (Not saying that people are playing the game wrong, they bought it and as long they abuse things agains other players they do whatever they want. Bragging about killing a boss in 2 tries and then saying it's a perfect game... much less appreciated.)
sure, but the bosses dont force you into using ashes of war or specific playstyles. except maybe rykard, but thats a gimmick. and yeah the people spamming skill issue dont add much to the discussion indeed
@@glisteninggames2981 felt a lot of times that (maybe skill issue tho) if I didn't used the "powerfull thing" it would just make the fight tedious and not very interesting. Bayle comes to my mind, as I still can't imagine beating him without poisebreaking, especially the P2, which AoE's makes melee builds a torture unless you stun the boss for half the fight
Edit : remembered the existence of Foreskin Duo and the sleep pots, I know it's possible, and technically not that hard to do it without, but goddamnit it's an atrocious without using any kind of cheese
Finally, someone said it!
Very impressive analysis. Concerning the delayed attacks, I think the perceived difference between DS3 and Elden Ring may also originate from Elden Rings deviations from the rythm of the fight (that you also kinda grazed) rather than just being different in length. DS3 is very meticulous about consistancy in that regard, for example even Pontiffs crossed swords combo at 11:41 could probably be described in a bunch of quarter and eighths notes, while Elden Rings combos don't feel like they could, if that makes sense. Even if there is a delay in DS3 I just need to guess the right "beat" it will be resolved on, while in Elden Ring I feel like it is arbitrary or based on positioning (like Margits infamous delay for example). This makes DS3s delayed attacks much less noticible in my opinion and I think that needs to be taken into account when analyzing delays in the two games. Of course this is subjective, but for me the rythm or lack thereof feels more relevant than the raw durations of the delays.
I'm not a musician so IDK if I'm explaining this properly as I don't really understand time signatures but I've found that often times in ER when something feels off rhythm it's a matter of it being the players turn to attack. So with Margit as you mentioned if I just stand and wait for the swing to come out yes it feels off rhythm but if I attack during that delay then it feels like me landing my attack makes up for the lost beat if that makes sense. That's just my experience but it feels more rhythmic when I'm doing stuff like this, even more so than in DS3. It actually feels quite similar to Sekiro however the issue is that it's quite difficult to learn to play this way and one tiny mistake can often interrupt the tempo which can be difficult to fall back into if you have a tendency to want to disengage to heal for example.
@@BBQcheeseYou explained it properly, no worries. I'd probably describe it as the "flow of battle" (I hope I'm not misrepresenting your concept here) and I agree, but it's not necessarily what I mean: a lot of the pre-Elden Ring attacks were literally on beat (sometimes, as in the video, even synched to the actual music), so even when there was a delay, you would have a pretty good idea when precisely the attack would come. Nameless Kings lightning strike delay for example would only fool you once and the next time you would know to just roll a beat later (or, you know, a double or half or whatever, depending on your arbitrarily defined beat, but not a crazy fraction is the point). In Elden Ring the rythm plays less of a role and you have to learn every delay by itself (or, because a lot of the attacks are designed to rollcatch you, you can often use that as a mental aide, it's hard to call that rythmic though). I don't want to hyperfocus on Margits attack because it's really not very representative of the rest of the delays in Elden Ring, and because - as you say - it does have a pretty solid attack window in there, but it's easy to illustrate the point on it, because its delay is continuously variable and therefore can't be on beat most of the time. It's not about the beats missing attacks, but the attacks missing beats, to overcondense it a little. I love both combat systems though and I get why you'd find the flow easier to get into with some Elden Ring bosses. In the end, even though there are some trends, the desgin philosophies are more similar than some people pretend and ERs DLC once again introduced a lot of rythmic bosses too...
For me even though I agree with all the points you make, I still find it a shame that those merits are present in some other games sometimes to greater effect, Bloodborne being where a lot of elements now staples in their combat and boss design took their next step particularly, but it leaned on the frantic side, while Sekiro being where they refined that rhythmic dance to the extreme. Essentially DS3 ended up being the jack of all trades master of none, the transitory point with identity issues. Where it sits on the spectrum between predictable rhythm vs frantic rush is up to the individual's preference to decide if that appeals to them ofc.
Although I still love its bosses nonetheless, its areas are where I especially get bored on replay which is a problem made worse by lack of options in the early game due to the world's linear layout, but that's unrelated to the combat I suppose.
If I had to specify issues I have with the combat, it'd be the poor balancing to the toolkit the player has as R2's are rarely worth doing, and most weapons have skills not worth using which makes R1's the most viable to use nearly all the time, and I'd also say I dislike how loose rolling feels. The combat feel in DS3 was satisfying in many ways but rolling lost all weight from past Souls games even with midroll. ER largely maintained the same frame data but simply reeling back the roll distance and interpolating the rotation better resulted in way better game feel lol. I also dislike how gutted spellcasting felt. The way it's gated with the linear progression was bad in of itself but the fact most of the time melee is just better to use made it feel especially pointless honestly. The game really shines when you're an STR chad though, that's for sure.
I agreed with pretty much everything you said in this comment, but what you said about spellcasting especially struck a chord. I did a sorcery playthrough recently, and I was very disappointed with how lame it was. There ~4 offensive scorceries that don't suffer from having either extremely deficient DPS or FP efficiency. Even with 61 Int, a +10 Court Scorcer's staff, the Crown of Dusk, and both Dragon rings, Farron Flashsword still does less damage than a +10 Crystal Scimitar. That's just sad. And to say nothing of how stingy DS3 is with its attunement slots.
One of the most frustrating things I heard about the game from some souls fans when it was new is that it is bad because it is 'too easy'. You know what the last game in the trilogy I played that I found easy? Dark Souls 1. Dark Souls 2, being the first souls game I played, happened to also be the hardest for me initially. Sure it says something about the game not changing up enough things for it to be as fun of an experience as it could've been for returning players, but there's that, and people deciding the whole game is bad cause it was easy for them.
I've been watching allot of analysis videos of ER since the DLC drop and something I have yet to hear in any of the videos I've watched is about an interview with Miyazaki somewhere around the time of the network test where he describes his shift to a more rhythmic based combat system, taking Dancer as an example of a boss that attacks on off-beats to mirror a dance.
Whether a person prefers this shift in the series I think is up to taste but it's worth noting that it's an intentional design choice. I am looking forward to the next video on ER bc I found myself disengaged with ER pretty heavily despite being very into the boss fights of BB and somewhat DS3, ER I think just came at a bad time in my life so I was sour on it.
dark souls 3 with the valorheart is a really wild combination of offense and defense, since you'd ideally time your windups to catch attacks with the block frames
sadly the lower stability of the shield prevents you from turning it into an ersatz sekiro experience, but it made friede's first phase a lot more enjoyable for me
Giant door shields call your name
I think that half the people who say dark souls 3 combat is boring haven't fought Pontiff, it's not because they're bad but because the Dark Souls 3 early game is boring as hell. Or maybe I'm wrong and can't fully comprehend the idea of someone hating Dark Souls 3 because I'm not chronically online.
im a person who thinks ds3 combat is boring, i dont go online to blindly hate on it though. pontiff and dancer are the only base game bosses i enjoy. those are the exceptions id say
Twin Princes' were great too dont forget
@@VivianAckers Twin Princes are great but they're the penultimate boss. Pontiff Sulyvahn is the point where Dark Souls 3 gets good, though that's subjective. Abyss Watchers and Iudex Gundyr are the only great early game bosses, though Gundyr is a bit of a stretch for "great" because of the second phase, and Abyss Watchers isn't exactly an "early game fight." Trying to speak as objectively as possible, Lothric Castle is when Dark Souls 3 gets constantly good with bosses, and it's Dark Souls 3's biggest problem.
@@WilhelmthewideI'd consider Vordt a great boss too
Gundyr’s 2nd phase is all about teaching the player about delayed attacks (also introduces the concept of the pus of man)
I never really knew there was rivalry here. I mean I knew some tastes were different, and even Darksouls 2 has its super fans, but still between these 2 is kind of shocking as they're my two favorites from all the soulsborn stuff. (A tad ironic, since the one thing I kept hearing about Dark Souls 3 is how linear it is, and Elden Ring is clearly the whole opposite)
I think DS3 bosses are about as complex as Elden Ring bosses in some cases, especially DLC bosses. I think the reason DS3 may feel easier is because bosses tend to do very little damage compared to Elden Ring or Sekiro and have less health too. For instance, Soul of Cinder wouldn't be out of place in Elden Ring and probably has more moves than Radagon in his first phase alone; however, if you have put 30-40 points into vigor, you need to be hit about 3-5 times in a row for him to kill you, and if you're healing inbetween hits, realistically, you can beat him without learning his moveset and just hit trading. You can't really do this in Elden Ring. I find if I really limit my vigor in DS3, it becomes quite challenging.
idk man i just put on dragoncrest greatshield talisman, holy resist talisman and potentially a boiled crab. and i can tank like 6 hits from radagon at 60 vigor
@@glisteninggames2981 Perhaps, but most bosses, from what I recall, can 1-2 shot players in Elden Ring even with 60 vigour. I think Melania's grab does 90-95% of your health at 60 vigor + dragoncrest talisman. It is true it is easily avoidable, but I don't recall any boss in DS3 doing as much damage to a fully upgraded (with respect to health) character. By comparison, I think Soul of Cinder does less than 50% health with his grab in phase 2 to 40 vigour character.
@glisteninggames2981 Yes, but there is a big spike in difficulty between the ashen capital progression wise compared to the rest of the game which can be pretty brutal especially if unprepared or encountered at an earlier level, the spike up specifically in health and damage is pretty crazy. Elden Ring can be such a completely different experience in that regard because of its open world nature, so it makes sense why the spike has to be there, to at least give everyone some semblance of challenge.
Yet I know it was very frustrating for me who likes playing these games blind my first playthrough.
@@braynaguilar8567 i havent beaten SoC yet ( still on my first playthrough ) but i remember dragonslayer armour 2-3 shotting me and i was level 70 ( dont remember what my vigor was at the time, but was decently high ) most ER bosses didnt 2 or 3 shot me, at 60 vigor with basic damage mitigation. with most i could tank at least 4. malenia's grab does a lot of damage, but its her highest damaging attack and not her average output
@@dauntethomas5594 yeah i get that. my point for the difficulty spike though; by the time you get to mountaintops, a lot of the enemies are reused from older areas. you should be accustomed to their movesets by then, so them having more health and damage shouldn't change that much. but yeah fire giant does a fkton of damage regardless for example
Have you ever done a magic playthrough of ds3 Jermergerg? Faith, Pyromancy, and Sorcery are all super fun to use. Faith is my personal favorite because certain talismans have a weapon art which basically gives you temporary passive poise when you cast which is especially useful since lightning miracles (except for lightning arrow) are meant to be used at close range to get the 67% damage boost.
No but I definitely want to go back and do some different builds in the future!
DS3 4 Lyfe
lmao
First! Can't wait for the next video, keep up the good work!
It's not just the amount of delayed attacks and how long they last, but also their swing speed. Many delayed attacks in Dark Souls 3 like Nameless King's attacks can be easily rolled through reaction speed alone. This is not the case in Elden Ring where most delayed attacks have a swing speed so fast they're unreactable and must be memorized. A decent player with a decent build can beat most Dark Souls 3 bosses in their first few attempts. In Elden Ring a decent player with a traditional build, now considered a challenge run, is forced to take dozens of attempts memorizing the boss' moveset; something they might not enjoy or have the time for. This is why Dark Souls 3's combat is multiple magnitudes superior to me than Elden Ring's combat which I despise outside of a few enemies like Crucible Knights and Erdtree Avatars.
I really don’t think this is true.
Almost every Elden ring delayed attack can be reaction rolled as well. There is almost always a tell for when the delay is over.
@@thehelpfulwalnut7440 Define "tell". For me the tell is when the swing starts but then it's already too late. Just look at Margit. His infamous delayed attack practically teleports his cane from the wind up stance to the ground in one frame. That's not something you can react to; you'll have to memorize when prior to the swing to roll. No Dark Souls 3 delayed attack is that stupidly fast.
@@RaulBetancourtCthe problem with your argument is I personally have dodged that attack and many other delayed attacks on reaction dozens of times, so you saying you HAVE to memorize it is complete bullshit, at least for most of them. Some of the delayed jump attacks I can agree with, because the confusing physics of when they come down are genuinely hard to deal with. But saying you "cannot" react to attacks gets categorically disproven when other people do, in fact, react to it
Also, as has been stated a thousand times, you're NOT supposed to roll that attack from Margit. You're supposed to stay close and rotate around him so he just misses. Doing this you can get an entire light attack combo and he guaranteed cannot hit you
@@frazfrazfrazfraz the way you can dodge the attack is by dodging according to the tell prior to the swing, not the swing itself, which is the problem. You would only know about the precise tell after repeated attempts and memorization.
@@RaulBetancourtC you keep just saying things dude. You can literally see the swing start to come down and dodge it on reaction, it's as simple as that. Maybe you need a few attempts to learn that the game plays differently than ds3 and stop playing it like it's ds3, but you can absolutely react to the swing coming down, it does not "teleport"
DS3 is amazing. Still play it
Elden Ring GREATLY suffers from fat roll syndrome, the same that cursed dark souls 2. I mean the light load roll in dark souls 3 is like triple the distance of Elden rings rolling, it’s insane. I’m pretty sure dark souls 1 roll has more I-frames. If Elden Ring had the fluid movement of dark souls 3 I would enjoy it SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more. I feel like the short rolls is this games greatest flaw, hands down. The only time I ever put down Elden Ring for a break, is when I’m frustrated by the terrible movement in this game, which is OFTEN, especially after re visiting dark souls 3. If there was ds3 movement in Elden Ring, I would virtually never put the game down. It’s this games greatest flaw, hands down. It’s like if ds3 had the dual weapon system that Elden Ring has, it would just make it perfect.
EDIT: the light load roll in ds3 REALLY was insane. We took ds3 for granted
Thank god someone giving ds3 the love it deserves. DS3 combat is still good. I like the feel of it a lot even more than elden ring though I can't explain why. These game aren't hard after the first playthrough so being enjoyable to do is very important. I think it's the lack of stagger where it's more just a continuous barrage of attacks until you beat the boss. Don't get me wrong staggering is very rewarding but the uninterrupted dance is just nice. Also do you have a thesaurus next to you while you record?
I wouldn't say that the rolling style of combat is that bad even tbh, but I think the complexity of Elden rings combat is more replay able than Dark Souls 3. When approaching a boss for a second time you're more likely to look to more unique ways of dodging that hit, let's say you wanted to use wing stance on Godfrey to avoid the ground stomps. Thats a completely different approach than someone who just rolled or jumped it. It adds a lot more depth than you would realize.
Dark souls 3 by comparison is a phenomenal game, it's in my top 3 of from games right above bloodborne. However, on replays the most complex it will get is just walking around the boss or parrying the boss. Both are interesting options but aren't really that comparable to Elden Ring.
Now I would like to say that DS3 combat isn't bad at all, it's great. However, I would refrain from calling it equal to Elden Rings combat system. Although to reinforce this notion I would compare it to something like Bloodborne, where your dash is the only response on your first playthrough and most likely it wouldn't deepen on your second. So yeah, there is a legit argument that DS3 > Bloodborne in terms of combat expression.
All good points! I personally love rolling so I never really get tired of it, but I get why some people do. And I definitely think there's much more room for inventiveness on subsequent replays with Elden Ring. So this video isn't meant to place DS3 above Elden Ring by any means. Merely suggesting that it brings something different to the table, but that difference doesn't equal deficiency in my book :)
I like DS3 bosses better than Elden Ring, sure only using light attacks is always the best option, but the bosses are much fairer and better desighned imo. Mind you as a game I like Elden Ring better, the world is so much bigger, the things you as the player can do is so much more varied. The build variety is absolutely insane.
1:17 the lack of this dance feel really made me enjoy Elden Ring less
4:47 some elden ring delays are nasty though like the boss looking in the middle of an attack chain like he's returning to default pose.
Then there is bosses having different attack chains which start the same way. Being able to change their attack in response to what a player does
there is a dance to ER bosses, its just more complex than in ds3. and bosses switching up combos with the same tell animation has been a thing since at least ds1 dlc
@@glisteninggames2981 there isn't not even remotely.
@@viorp5267 how so?
@@viorp5267 Wrong. You haven't learned a single boss in the game and it shows. Imagine not calling this a dance: ruclips.net/video/2VdoP2gh1h8/видео.html
@@Arfadoz he hits him 3 times on the random delays. I played both games. I know they feel different. Stop with the gaslighting please
There is no need to be yapping, Elden Ring combat more complicated, more hard. DS3 combat is less complicated, easier. Problem solved, go play what you want but this doesn't change which is good or bad.
Do Dark Souls 2 next
The amount of instant attacks on bosses + the lack of unique looking telegraphs (basically a lot of bosses attacks looks way too similar) ruin it for me. And well, the stamina being smaller than even a Rune Level 1 character in ER is bad too.
Oh no, you have to lvl stamina, the horror
@@Arfadoz in DS3 you just get the flow of the battle and you can dodge 95% of times, in er it feels to meta - analyzing and memorizing move after move breaks me out of immersion
The only instantaneous attacks I can think of is Oceiros charge and maybe SoC Pyro phase. Oceiros is jank, though you can still counter it with positioning, SoC can be easily outspaced. This is a much worse issue in ER, even dlc has instant phase transition on Romina, Metyr lasers and phase transition as well. Also never had issue with unique looking telegraphs, there's nothing even nowhere near as bad as Draconic tree sentinel in ds3 when it comes to that.
@@Magnus_Fraus That doesn't change anything I said? You still have more stamina as a RL1 character in ER than an endgame character in DS3.
@@traktorholik Having to learn a boss is bad now?
Im not saying one is objectively better than the other but er completely lost me, mainly with its boss design. For the life of me i could not get into it. If this is the path fromsoft decides to go down im afraid ill have to stop playing their games. I mean, i already barely play games at all these days but still. Beat ds3 4 times btw
Yeah everyone has different preferences, so your perspective is totally valid! I found the DLC bosses very much had a DS3 feel in some sense for what it's worth.
Good vid
Nice
yeah show your work on these calculations ... not sure your math is mathing nor your graphs graphing
WTF?! Who is this people? DS3 need no defence obviously.
Elden Ring's gameplay is meant to be accessible to inexperienced new souls players, and the bosses are therefore torn between two playstyles. The newer player, or perhaps merely the type of player who is willing to use every advantage they can get their hands on, will be able to beat the boss without really actually *learning* the boss but *surviving* and possibly *overpowering* it. And the 'Hardcore' player who seeks total mechanical mastery, and typically desires the utmost challenge, will be able to get the mighty challenge they desire.
Despite their difficulty, the bosses aren't typically impossible or too unfair on a mechanical level, and therefore can be learned hitless and be mastered by the 'Hardcore' player like a challenge run player or someone like Ongbal and the like. But there's a middle-way type of Souls player who suffers from this design: the type who isn't willing to ascetically strip themselves of all advantage to get a full grip of the boss, but still seeks a comprehensible challenge. This player probably won't use many buffs if any at all, and will probably not use Spirit Summons.
Bosses are balanced around the abundance and strengths of the new loot and combat options. Mainly through extremely far and tight gap-closer attacks, wide and repeated AOEs, and extremely tricky attacks (possibly perceived as frame traps at a first glance, but are probably a problem of positioning) woven into lengthy and easily overwhelming combos. The bosses also have combos where they make themselves impossible to be hit by conventional melee means, and typically just serve as "their turn" to attack no matter what.
These bosses often do not have a stagger animation (I do not mean posture break, but a conventional stagger after getting hit) and therefore are not very manipulable by the player. Most bosses cannot be acted upon but only reacted to.
This can make the middle-way player feel as if they're either merely surviving a nail-bitingly difficult encounter where they're almost bound to get hit no matter what, or that they accidentally and unsatisfyingly tore the enemy apart before they could pull all their tricks out their sleeves. Either way, an experience beyond the reach of your mastery. You failed to truly learn the boss because you might not be good enough to, or you refused to empower yourself enough to trivialize them, so learning them was not necessary in the process of beating them.
I have unfortunately never really learned Morgott because his HP was too low.
I think that if they ever make a game as big and ambitious as Elden Ring again, that they should be unabashedly inaccessible to the extent that it keeps the gameplay streamlined and consistent. I also think that they should experiment with mechanics that allow the player to expand their arsenal of methods to counter the enemy in a way which increases the complexity of gameplay. Possibly tied to the open world exploration in that Elden Ring way. Especially if the enemies are going to be designed with increasing levels of complexity, difficulty, and spectacle.
Sekiro as an example: had several movement mechanics and combat tools, that acted as either staples of the combat itself or tertiary options which could be creatively used to one's advantage in the heat of battle.
Bloodborne had parry as a consistent part of the arsenal, and each weapon typically had an ample amount of options mid combat.
Elden Ring is Dark Souls 4 combat stretched thin to fit a pace more reminiscent of Bloodborne or Sekiro, and the measures used to cope with this made the end product ultimately less satisfying and less streamlined than the predecessors which influenced it the most.
just like sekiro and bloodborne, this game gives you many more base mechanics to keep up with boss aggression. its not dark souls 4. in ER, you can jump over boss attacks to come down with a jump heavy, and duck under a possible followup with the recovery. positioning / strafing / spacing is way more relevant for getting openings, crouching can be used to crouch under attacks and do crouch pokes, for example with midra and romina. you can also hit bosses during windups of delayed attacks to get an extra opening, or you can choose to wait to regen stamina. you can safely hit any boss while they attack, if you do it well
the complexity thing is an overgeneralization. a lot of ER bosses have increased complexity yes, but there are also so many bosses in this game, including remembrances fights, that are not mechanically harder than ds3 bosses for example.
this is a list of the ER trophy bosses that i would consider to be on the same level of complexity as the average late game / dlc ds3 boss. or even a lower level of complexity. and this DOESNT even include ER dlc
godrick, red wolf, rennala, leonine misbegotten, ancestor spirits, elemer of the briar, makar. individual godskins are quite complex, but not too far off. sewer mohg, astel, dragonkin soldier of nokstella, fire giant and placidusax are very cinematic but simple mechanically
that are a loooot of bosses. a lot of ds3 bosses didnt stagger on hit either. idk i think your comment largely overblows the issues you may have with the game
@@glisteninggames2981 Godskins, Placidusax, and Fire giant are riddled with typical Elden Ring problems as well. Fire Giant and Placidusax actually have unique problems as giant bosses in ER. And just because there are exceptions to the overtuned bosses does not mean that Elden Ring escapes my general critique of how players are typically encouraged to encounter the game.
The jump also does not help Elden Ring's case particularly, because despite it being objectively useful in countering enemy attacks, it's still typically unintuitive to use as a reliable form of evasion for an experienced Souls player. There are some obvious cases where jump makes sense on the fly, but otherwise it is usually unclear or seemingly arbitrary. Ducking is an even worse example of this. These are not clear enough mechanics to compensate for my critique thus far, and they definitely scream 'Dark Souls 4'.
The staggering on hit thing is actually really clear and I can't believe you don't see what I'm getting at. Yes some bosses in DS3 were unstaggerable, but almost every big strong and fast major boss in ER will take a fully charged Colossal Weapon R2 to the face and not flinch once. While this isn't the case with Pontiff or Dancer, where if you hit them with enough poise damage, they will reel back, allowing for a whole different dimension of gameplay where well-placed slow attacks are rewarded, and Heavy Strength builds are can be viable with even a decently aggressive playstyle.
@@aramkaizer7903 if you want to consider Elden Ring as Dark Souls 4, that's fine with me. because it fits perfectly in my argument. Game mechanics have never been explained well in souls games. We're talking about evasion methods here, so let's use dodge rolling as an example. DS1 never thaught you anything about dodge rolling. Didn't tell you about s during rolls, or that you're supposed to roll INTO boss attacks instead of away. Some attacks cant be rolled but have to be spaced or strafed, like Quelaag's explosion. So this has always been hilariously inconsistent and obtuse
Why was it this way? Because the devs dont hold your hand; they want the player to carefully look at the options available when they encounter a problem, and try stuff out through trial and error. It would only make sense that a further installment to this series ( Dark Souls 4 aka Elden Ring ) has similar mechanics that the players need to experiment with to get the hang of
Also, isn't this exactly what you wanted? gonna quote you here
"I also think that they should experiment with mechanics that allow the player to expand their arsenal of methods to counter the enemy in a way which increases the complexity of gameplay."
That is exactly what jumping and the other mechanics I pointed out do
I don't think Godskins have issues outside of their duo, fire giant def has issues, and placi is just kinda uninteresting mechanically to me. You didn't reason this any further, so ill just leave it there
I think my arguments compensated for your criticisms perfectly, dont see why not
- "The bosses also have combos where they make themselves impossible to be hit by conventional melee means" : again, what I said in my first reply
- "Bosses too complex for the average player" : There are tens of bosses that arent mechanically complex for people to enjoy if theyre not into complex stuff
- Didn't add enough movement combat mechanics" : Well I just named them and they change the combat by a lot. Stance breaks also
- "Bosses don't have such a stagger animation" : Thanks to the mechanics I just pointed out, you get more openings for jump attacks and charged heavies. Which makes nearly any boss flinch a little, depending on the weapon
- "Possibly tied to the open world exploration in that Elden Ring way" : Well, there is. Plenty of ashes of war in the open world that give you s for example. Bloodhounds step, Miriam's Vanishing, Blinkbolt, Vow of the Indomitable, various parry ashes that add projectiles or let you parry projectiles
@@glisteninggames2981
You didn't understand my argument, and I'm not going to explain it again. Please read my main comment again.
@@aramkaizer7903 i get your point about staggers, ER bosses stagger less on average. only other point I didnt fully acknowledge is that these systems are unintuitive for the average souls player. sure, but i just responded why thats not a bad thing imo. i engaged with all of your other arguments, including quotes of stuff you said etc. i really dont see what i dont get man
DS3 combat is pretty repetitive and boring, just roll 1-3 attacks and r1 spam.
Comment
Elden ring is plagued with laziness, overtuned numbers, and shitty hitboxes
@@wyvernslayer4530 ds2 V2
have fun with oceiros charge
@@glisteninggames2981 oceiros charge is 10x less bs than hippo
@@traktorholik gaius charge is bad, but its telegraphed, reactable, and can be consistently avoided with medium load. lots of other base mechanics you can use to have an easier time dodging it as well. comparing it to something like dancer grab is more accurate imo. hippo hitboxes already got nerfed. oceiros charge is pretty much instant and has literally no telegraph lmao. whole fight is carried by the lore, dialogue and ost. would take gaius over him any day
@@glisteninggames2981 you just need to react fast to oceiros charge and his dmg isn't even high
i mostly dislike the gameplay of elden ring bosses, they mistake being overtuned for being better.
nobody enjoys sitting back for 10 seconds while you wait for the boss to finish chimping out with their 20 hit combo
"idiots admire complexity, geniuses admire simplicity." - Terry Davis
Elden Ring bosses arent overtuned and you dont have to wait for that long to attack a boss. There are a lot base mechanics that give you the opportunity to hit bosses safely while they attack
- Jumping over boss attacks gives you the opportunity to come down with a jump heavy, and duck under a possible followup with the recovery
- Positioning / strafing / spacing is way more relevant for getting openings and saving stamina
- Crouching can be used to crouch under attacks and do crouch pokes, for example with midra and romina
- Hitting bosses during windups of delayed attacks gives you an extra opening, or you can choose to wait to regen stamina
Sure, ER bosses are more aggressive, but they give you a lot more tools to deal with it. Some ds3 bosses had a lot of very long combos too. Dancer, pontiff, friede phase 3...
But again, both games are great, and its all personal preference after all
"sitting back" this mentality of "attacking only time I'm having fun" is so bizarre. No other game I can think of in any other genre where dodging is some thing put between the player and the fun.
Love the Pontiff parries, I'd encourage you to run more "expressive" builds in your gameplay footage over the naked roll/punish setups - Dark 3's most prominent criticism is the rolling/R1 spam you touched on, a criticism that is usually paired with footage that looks similar to your own - sort of proving the adverse. You'd better refute it by pairing more expressive combat with your analysis; show off a lighting knight throwing spears between Gael's openings or a spellblade blending Farron Flashsword into his swings, a Pyromancer tossing oil pots to enhance his fire element etc.
I don't think DS3 has an oil mechanic?
@@senecauk8363 i think you're right lmao, that was introduced with Bloodborne.
Yes. It sucks that, in the interest of a "pure" experience, people throw away almost every game mechanic and end up putting themselves in a weird challenge run. You're supposed to parry Pontiff. You're supposed to stagger Morgott when he's charging up his big rain of swords. You're supposed to reverse Genichiro's lightning. You're not supposed to let them cook.