A man after my own heart. I’ve owned 2 Unimogs, for beekeeping. Built lithium titanate battery banks and have only high school education. We are like brothers who have never met.
I have four brothers and sisters that never went to school at all. And they all read and write English and Spanish, and do all sorts of things without a single day in school. and one of them is so handy that can do just about anything, and also does architect work in a computer, blue prints and all, and has never taken a single course in computers or architecture. And I have son that went to school and graduated from university and doesn't even have job. We the old times are much better off. I too grew up on the streets, but did have education. But before placing a single foot in school rooms, I already knew how to read write and math at high school levels. And all I have used of education is what I learned before going to school, I greatly admire people like you.
As an electrician, I appreciate your engineering skills. I do have a couple of suggestions: Best to use copper bus bars. If not, use tin coated aluminium bus bars. Aluminium oxide, which forms very quickly on bare aluminium, is very resistant to electrical current. The star washers you used may save your bus bars from melting by piercing through the oxide coating and providing a decent (not optimal) connection to the un-oxodized aluminium. Tin coated bus bars are protected from oxidation by the tin. The last option would be to sand the connection areas and use a non-oxidizing electrically conductive grease on the aluminium. This grease can be purchased through most electrical supply houses and many hardware stores. I would also use lockwashers on the studs along with nylock nuts (and no thread-lock compound, but anti-seize compound). When aluminum under compression connections is heated, it will ooze out of the connection. Then when the connection cools, it will contract, leaving a small space between the connection that allows oxides to form. Aluminium wire must be re-tightened every 5 years to accommodate this issue. Copper holds a memory of its shape and will expand back to its original shape instead of oozing out of the connection. The lock-washer will provide compressive force to the connection that will expand to prevent loosening over time, a must on all battery connections. Or better than that, use a bellville washer. It is used to make electrical connections. It is very slightly cone shaped and made of spring steel, so it provides the best expansive connection to make up for thermal expansion and contraction. But they are very expensive. I looked at building a similar system for my home, but went with used Tesla batteries for now. I would assemble them like so: Battery cell---Anti seize compound on stud--Stainless steel nylock nut---Stainless steel flat washer---No Ox grease---copper bussbar---No Ox grease---Stainless steel flat washer--bellville or stainless steel lockwasher---anti-seize compound on stud---then finally, a stainless steel nylock nut. I would use the same system for aluminium bus bars. The nut on both sides of the bus bar is to prevent the stud from putting tension on the cell. All my best to you and your system. You are very correct to look at cost per cycle instead of just cost per kw hour capacity. You will pay more up front, but a lot less in the long run.
Thanks for your comprehensive advice. I didn't use copper because it would likely have cost close to as much as the cells and then have many points of dissimilar metal contact. I appreciate ali can be problematic with the oxide layer. Each point of contact was lightly sanded and had a light coating of grease (not conductive - but have previously found non conductive grease works fairly well). Am hoping the relatively low currents through each connection will mean low stress and a lack of issue (optimism at it's finest). If for eg I'm pulling 3kW, it will be pulling around 15A through each cell connection. Cheers, let me know how your tesla system works out for you.
What if he used standard copper pluming pipes 15mm diameter 1mm thick? flatten them with hammer = 23mm wide, 2mm thick, is that good enough? they are affordable , seen many people on YT make DIY Battery Terminals out of them, would it work for his applications? in fact I think maybe he could just retro fit his existing busbar (if this current system allows for 24mm length expansion), he just needs to buy 3-4 pipes at 5m long cost around NZ40 (USD28) each on trademe.co.nz
@@leoncryp8182 While it will work, it is not ideal. Copper pipe often uses a slightly different formula than typical copper bar and sheet stock used for electrical in order to maintain stiffness. The process of hammering out the copper tubing can also cause the copper to crystallize. This is the same as if you bend a copper (or steel) wire back and forth enough, the metal will eventually break due to crystallization. This crystallization also creates a very high resistance in the copper. This is why one is required to use stranded copper wire for flexible connections or power cords. I have seen solid conductor building wire catch fire from being misused as extension cord material. Seems like a lot of work, when you could buy the sheet copper online for not much more. The dangers of getting a battery system wrong can be catastrophic.
@@GoCoyote Thanks for the insight, buying proper copper sheets sounds like the way to go, what if you had a small project and and some pipe lying around, burn copper with a touch? kind of annealing it or something, would that relax and soften up the crystal structures? seen people do that to bend copper and aluminium, heat then bend slightly, heat again and keep bending, gets very nice smooth bends
@@leoncryp8182 I apologize, but that is beyond the basic knowledge that I have. I often tell people that I have a lot of (hopefully) informed opinions, and hopefully, some facts. One my apprenticeship instructors told us that there is no way that we can memorize all of the information we need to know, as knowledge changes all the time. The thing we need to be able to do is know enough to be able to know that you don't know something, and that there are resources to give us that information.
This was actually the very first of your videos that I've watched and I have to say your presentations are, without a doubt, the very best I've ever seen. For a high-school dropout, you seem to be rather well educated and articulate and master of an astonishing array of skills. By now, I've watched everything you've filmed and published on RUclips and am eagerly looking forward to your next piece. Thank you.
Thank you for explaining the importance of using watts vs amps for your power bank/ draw etc. It amazes me how many people are stuck on amps when there are many different power systems.
Was heading to bed, came upon this video and saw "yet another battery build" - can watch later. Then you mentioned LTO and I just had to watch it right away. Really impressive build on a chemistry which isn't very well covered. I was even more impressed as I watched on that you did the tests and they actually came out to be 40+. Wasn't expecting that. Good stuff!
@@w0ttheh3ll Would never intentionally overcharge or expose a battery. Hell, I turn in my prius bad cell for recycling after replacing the bad modules. Thank you for looking out for the less intelligent on the internet though.
My first and only, lithium battery explosion was some 8 or 10 years ago! On a homemade battery pack! It happened during charging! At that moment I had a cat in a transport box, not even a meter away! It came from the vet shortly before the episode. The transport box, literally saved the animal. Fortunately no physical injuries occur to the cat! But the poor thing was visibly shaken! By having several cells bursting/exploding into flames, in a rather spectacular way! Some parts of the cells hit the ceiling! :-o Also luckily when it happened I was quite close and could react very fast! Throwing the entire unit to the outer deck and into the snow! Which literally saved the house... In fact I had been most of the morning out. It would have been dramatic to say the least! Old wooden house (rented), with carpet floors and wallpaper! You get the picture! In spite of much washing and scrubbing, the wall always testimony the episode! ;-) NEVER underestimate the destruction power of a damaged battery! Cheers
Brendon, the type of guy that challenges the great Will Prowse and shows his calculations! Plus you add the structural components to make it a complete off-the-shelf package. Subbed!
@@brendontait6968 Hi, great video, thanks for the clear explanation. I’m researching building a small, lightweight electric driven boat and these batteries look more attractive option than 18650’s for so many reasons. Way heavier than petrol of course but I’m sick of the fumes and noise. I live in Ōhope, BoP, NZ so I’m particularly interested in your supply and shipping costs and challenges. Following your link the shipping costs appear to be quite high. What was your experience? On the loctite front, I use the low strength version (222) for this type of application.
Thanks, yeah I was going to do 18650s for the truck, but after looking on some Facebook pages where I've never seen such a large collection of burned down houses in one place I decided to go a different route. Battery freight to NZ is an absolute punish. I still have some for sale if you want to buy from me, flick me a message on insta
As someone who studied engineering in university, I am genuinely impressed with your knowledge of engineering principles (expansion/contraction, bending moments, and so on).
@@jasongrinnell1986 Most people who drop out don't have the time or energy to educate themselves to this degree, so it's still pretty surprising and interesting. Worth praising Mr. Tait for.
@@jasongrinnell1986 if my comment made it seem that I am of the opinion that drop outs are stupid, nothing is further from the truth. I dropped out of high school myself, because I was bored with high school classes and frustrated at the slow pace. I simply studied the prerequisites for structural engineering independently and wrote the entrance exam for mature student status. Also, intelligence is, in part, irrelevant in this case as one would still need to spend the time and energy to gain a reasonable comprehension of the aforementioned engineering principles.
I'm a pretty innovative bloke with patented excavator technology and I rate Brendan highly. I am to embark on completing my trike as electrically powered and I am convinced to use these LTO batteries. Also, I have taken note of the mechanical points Brendan mentions in the construction of the battery pack; I can't/won't be using the same extruded Aluminium rail and I don't have access to CND milling or laser technology, which will be outsourced using my own DXF files, but the principles to control for expansion and to protect the batteries is highly relevant. I particularly appreciate Brendan's post-analysis of what he would have done differently and I will go for a 48V system too for the added benefit of being able to use smaller cables and reducing heat losses. I will be adding an extra flanged nut on each battery terminal to better accommodate any differences in battery length and to provide the thred lock. This video has pointed me in the right direction when I might have been swayed by the otherwise talented Will Prowse mentioned. I would be up for a collective purchase of batties and will check out the links in this video. Thank you Brendan!
to all The passion for knowledge and the acquisition of such knowledge, has never been owned by universities or any other educational institute. The passion to achieve is almost totally driven from within. I designed my first radio's and signal generator at 10 years old, because I had an insatiable curiosity to do so at that young age
Mate, there is a reason you have 'no formal training', you are simply self taught better than any university could do. Thankyou for the education you provide.
bingo... same here... high school dropout, zero college, six figure salary. According to all the debt laden diploma's I should be flipping burgers if I am lucky. If a person wants to learn very little is going to prevent them. I have found my standards for education exceed that or formal education by a significant degree. I am never sending my children to those clowns!
I have no idea why your channel popped up, but I'm so glad it did, one of the beat videos I've seen regarding this kind of stuff. Was such a wonderful video to watch.
Kia ora brother your information and intentions are amazing many people will grow from your info, you made understanding easier, as a designer of self-reticulating hydroelectricity systems I would like to talk more about building a true green electricity generator
Both your practical and technical knowledge are impressive and more importantly to us all, Appreciated! Lost my Bro this year (60 years old), who was accepted to college at 15 and electrical and mechanical wiz. He was my go to for all things related (and truly would appreciated your knowledge and approach), we walked through more of this the past years plus, and appreciate those who (like you) post such information and support such a personal loss of go to knowledge. Thanks! Subscribing.
Hey Levi... hope you guys are well. Yeah I find watching the machine hypnotic, maybe I'll put some more in my videos. Thanks... yeah I have a few update videos to catch up on, but have been away for a decent trip in the truck and absolutely love it!
18650s? I use the Opus BT-C3100 for smaller cells. Works well, they can crap out with heavy use. (I've put around 1,000 cells through one) else I've linked the current larger one that I use on my cold testing video.
I helped a friend with the same problem of rigid busbar. Use heavy equipment battery cables the are rectangular shape looking at them from the end view. They let expansion and contraction happen and really conduct so much better than aluminum. The copper is plated with tin also which helps with corrosion. Worked for he. Peace. VF
Got 1 minute in and knew I liked this guy... haven’t watched the whole Video yet but something tells me I’m gonna taking this advice. Some people, just have a flair for cutting through the bs. Hard to find these days! Cheers dude
I have only watched to 6:35 so far but I love how You have allready told me You have no prior qualifications and also demonstrated how your design is based on in depth understanding of physical and chemical properties of the subject matter. I feel like the World missed out when it did not give you a engineering grade and a research job! Wełl done M8.
I really like how you ended the presentation, telling us what you would have done differently. When I saw the RED thread lock, I cringed because of my own experience with the stuff. I have bolts break before it releases. I was thinking to protect from loosening due to vibration, Blue thread lock would do fine. Another issue is the use of aluminum because it does form an insulating oxide layer, but this can be avoided with the use of dielectric grease to minimize the available oxygen.
Gorgeous use of this technology. As a schooled electrician I will assert the importance of proper dielectric grease whenever connecting anything aluminum to itself and or dissimilar metals especially tin plated copper lugs. I may have missed that step.. I saw lock tite. Very important especially with such enormous currents. Positive reinforcement awesome build.
Very informative Brendon thank you. Trying to work out what to use in an offgrid battery for a house in the UK. Never really come across LTO before as most people I talk to are trying to sell me something and LiFePO4 is an easier sell/profit for them selling to people who aren't curious as to choices availible and long term efficeincy and cost.. If possible I prefer to either build whatever I can or at least fully understand how it works, so your video is just perfect. Simple explaination, easy to check up on what you are saying, so thank you. Education is what I do and I enjoyed being educated by your video.. Cheers
Very interesting video, I like that you considered things like expansion etc. I'll be watching for more information especially on charging regimes and bms system.
Ha!! Starts video with, "yeah, no formal training, just muckin' about" - then builds the best engineered battery pack YT has seen, Then corrects misconceptions about LTO battery chemistry. Definitely subscribed, great video, thanks M8!!
A Badge and Seals don't always comply with the best Tuna.. Nor Good taste. Sometimes you need to go to the dock where the stuff is pulled from the ocean kudos! Hah!!!
Very nice video mate! 48 volt systems are popular because everything telecom related in the whole world runs on -48VDC, so there’s a huge industrial use for the same components that goes into the solar power systems.
Yeah, I agree. I liked the fact that the truck operating voltage was the same, but it deff would have saved me some money. Plus I could have made my door operate at twice the speed!
@@brendontait6968 It's always a question of optimizing for your situation, I have a 3 battery 12 Volt system, and now that I'm adding inverters and stuff I'm really beating myself for not getting 4 batteries 2 years ago, then I could easily switch to 48VDC, now I'm stuck at 12VDC :)
Good job Brendon! Thanks for taking the effort to make this video, it was helpful. I am pondering a battery design for my boat to replace the generator. New Hampshire, USA.
Thanks Sean, first attempt at battery too! Normally the first version of anything I make is terrible, but this has performed really well and not sure I'd change anything about the design if I were to build it again. Sometimes dumb luck plays a part in design!
There may be no letters after your name but you are very smart and common sense you cant buy. This is truly one of the best no nonsense videos I have seen, extremely logical, and very well explained. Thanks so much I am definitely going to replicate your build. You are also a joy to listen to, looking forward to watching your other videos. Keep it going.
Holy shit. You're frigging awesome. I'm in WLG, was just about to hit the buy now on Trademe for a 200AH Lithium. Problem for me is the safety, I've had experience of LiPo's catching fire in RC car builds... I'll email tonight.
Thanks for your hard work to build,test and prove use of this battery is possible. I will seriously consider making up a system for my home as the cost is far less than a Tesla unit and longer life. Kudos to you.
This is one of the best videos on this subject that I've seen, good information, elegant design... I also recommend reading the description, which contains some complementary information and file links.
@@markfisher8943 considering Einstein's third gr teacher said he was too slow to be in her class. His mum kept that stupid letter from him and taught him herself.✌️
Great build. I have few of these cells and wondered about how I can package them together and you gave me some few great tips! In general in automotive application, LTOs are not so popular in most builds since kWh per Kg in power density is where these are far behind compared to other Lithium chemistries. I worked with these in City Buses where they may have a short range like 50-80km but have dual charging port to pump in as much amperage (8-10c) in for 5-10 minutes and go another 50-80km - it was pretty sweet to see them work. LTO (Altairnano/Yinlong) is an odd duck that has some interesting applications. They do degrade about 1% a year and also wants to be charged with high amps if you want to them to perform well. Share more about your experience with BMS and other related things. Thanks for sharing. Subscribed!
I never completed high school either . But that didn't stop me from being successful, l learned more in the first 12 months of work from a great and patient mentor/employer than l did for the previous 9 years. Then a couple of years in the army taught me how to be independent so l spent the next 50 years working for myself without any trade qualifications, now I'm retired and living life to the full. I'm also interested in finding the best off grid batteries and inverter system. You have now started a fire under me, thanks. I knew the retailer was asking way too much for gear he didn't know enough about, their in it for the money and just don't care about the customer, this is why l started to research You Tube . Thanks.
This video addressed most of my concerns about putting a battery bank together with various chemistries. Thank you for all of the hard work. My only issue that I see is 2.4v times 5 cells is only 12.0 - - I'd be worried that's not a high eenough voltage for my system which shuts off at 11.7v and would be much more comfortable with 6 cells in series which provides adequate headroom at 14.4v
I assume you mean series and not parallel. Is there a specific reason you want to use a 12V system. I'm using 24V and I think that is on the low limit. 12V is even less! But yeah 6S is probably the way I'd go if I were doing 12V.
@@brendontait6968 yes I did mean series and not parallel. Will edit. That's just currently what my inverter is - 12V system. I can switch to 24v or 48v. Have been thinking about it. But I'd have to buy a new mppt charger and inverter. Currently needing to replace my AGM batteries so it's all up in the air for now.
Have a think about where you want your system to go to future proof it. I'm running dual induction hobs, electric oven, electric hot water and domestic fridge. It can do it, but just. I wouldn't want to run any lower voltage. If you are looking at increasing your draw. Consider selling your inverter, mppt etc and buy an all in one? One thing to be aware of is some lithium batteries have a limit on max series voltage, so keep this in mind.
I feel to measure the power then compliance voltage plays a massive part on the measurement accuracy, that's why some measurements at low voltage with say a current shunt & moving iron ammeter in the same circuit might give different readings due to compliance voltage & connection lead resistance, chart recorder to measure terminal voltage & current across a dc shunt with a fancy constant current load would be the answer there are proper units out there but expensive ! Compliance voltage is very important when trying to measure power or one can make mistakes say from a CT transformer using thin long leads to a moving iron meter, Yes very impressive metalwork, cost a massive amount of £$, I would have that sort of power in a brick shed, not in the bedroom for sure, always worried about fire risk, I rather have a purpose built brick shed or metal container, Those batteries are really like a super capacitor. Really nice engineering 👌
Re: your cost calculations, those aren’t “per kWh”, they’re “per kWhcycle”. Which is a totally valid comparison once you venture outside a particular battery type! But it isn’t *that* new an idea.
My unit was intended to show cost per kWh of power delivered and not storage capacity. So for example... where I live, power costs around 13c/kWh (usd). People think that if they have solar charging batteries, their power is free. I was trying to show the actual cost of power delivery from different battery chemistries. So for eg if you had bought those AGM batteries, (and you'd been given the rest of the solar setup for free) each kWh of electricity that you used would cost you 48c
@@brendontait6968 You nailed it. Definitely the most relevant way to compare kWh costs to a normal on-grid set-up. The cost per kWh for the life of the batteries. The nerdy mathematicians might be right - the units are cost/kWh/cycle, but they miss the point - how to amortise the cost of the batteries in delivering each kWh, which have a limited life. And then there is the cost of all the other components. Some may need to be replaced in the next 10 years and "life-long" components still need to have some depreciation cost apportioned to them, even if it is only what that money could be doing for you elsewhere (5% per annum ?).
@@Slebonson consider the cost of electricity for all of the people that are buying replacement batteries at about $2,000 a kilowatt hour and they have to be replaced about every 500 Cycles. Companies like specialized. Bosch. And when you get into their lightweight much smaller batteries that the main selling point is you can bring on an airplane the cost per kilowatt-hour that the cost of electricity constitutes is insignificant. All of the cost is in the wear and tear of the batteries. Electric bicycle Market has two different types of customers. Those who spend tens of thousands of dollars on a toy they're going to use once or twice or maybe a couple times a year and then upgrade to keep up with the other one percenters and then the market place in places like India or even Singapore which although vastly different socioeconomically all recognize the bargain of a vehicle got the passenger can carry not just the vice versa. Gouging cheap chemistry's that costs much much more than Peyton 8 which you could after all permanently installed in a carbon fiber frame without any ethical compulsion to disclose to an airline that is actually an electric bike that's the way you get market share not past market share nobody cares about pasta market share when it comes to micro Mobility. It will never matter. When matter is is getting the cars off the road. Cars don't belong in public. They are toys and need to be kept at home or on private player grounds. The unicycle is what replaces the horse. It doesn't shit nor drop dead. That is if the hey you put in the frame has been properly fed with titanium.
Newbie here, I have some questions that I think you would have the answers to. 1. Could you install one of these capacitors on a vehicle to extend the battery life? 2. If I was bored one day and wanted to make my vehicle into a hybrid using an electric motor, could I use a bunch of these capacitors instead of a battery for the immediate energy storage from deceleration and acceleration factor? I must say, you are the smartest high school drop out I've met so far.
Hey, firstly they aren't capacitors. But they can throw out power like you'd expect from caps. 1. I don't think you'd see a significant increase in battery life by attaching one of these to it. Starter lead acid batteries actually like short bursts of high drain from them as you'd see with starter loads, it can help break down the lead sulfate that can build up on the plates. 2. These are a battery - the reality is you could use pretty much any type of battery - but these have the advantage that they can throw power in and out faster than most. So yeah a smaller pack could take bigger deceleration and acceleration loads. Thanks!
High school dropout here too, not trained in science, but have a passion for it and over the years, have gained a lot of knowledge and I am self taught. I get that reaction sometimes too, lol.
@@brendontait6968 Back here after 8 months, because I realized once I researched this again recently, that LTO batteries actually rock! I never knew it at the time, but once I read about them recently when thinking about building a lithium solar and wind system, I was impressed and this came up as suggested video for me. Then I realized I had been here before, hehehehe. Man, aging is not fun, this kind of thing happens more often to me now, as I get older. *facepalm. Great explanation though, love your bus bars and setup, how awesome.
Can't wait to see what you've got to show us! Thank you very much for making this content.! I'd really like the solar power solution content you've mentioned. It's a jungle out there. You are really good at explaining things, i understand it with my electronics education from highschool. Thanks please keep them coming!
Brilliant. Love discovering handy channels like this and you know when a guy just knows what the they’re talking about. I’d like to get some of those batteries and find some environmental ways of generating power.
I am truly impressed that you are not a trained engineer, because the engineering language and facts and figures that you quote are unlike any trained engineer I have worked with, this does you great credit a a self trained engineer. Incidentally A/h only really applies to DC systems and not really work accurately as an AC system power use measure.
Thanks for that John, Ah isn't typically used on AC systems because it's not a measure of energy capacity which is the same reason it shouldn't be used on DC systems. Obviously with AC you have the possibility of reactive power draw. Try avoid putting the "/" in the unit - it kindof reverses it's meaning. It isn't amps per hour (which would be amps divided by the number of hours), it's amps multiplied by the hours that it is delivered for. Cheers
Hi Brendon In my message there was a slip up. It was meant to be complimentary, but didn’t read that way. It should have read not unlike any engineers I’ve known.
Sounded like one too. And it was constructed like one with how the hole made was just off center to the tube shape of the thing. Guaranteed that there was a lot more energy in that spray than there is in one of those cauliflower things. I did not know that they got that angry.
I saw the thumbnail and heavily considered ignoring it "just another electrical video of more of the same". I was dead wrong. You sir, are exceptional! I'm also an autodidact and everything I know, I've taught myself so I can relate with you and also, you have my respect. Those are some amazing fabricating/machining/electrical/planning skills you got there mate! Glad I clicked on this video, looking forward to seeing more content from you :) Edit: That battery array turned out absolutely beautifully.
You can heat locative up with a soldering iron or some other heat source to make it pliable sos not to do damage to your batteries, neutral cure silicon is a good soft threadlocker , great post cheers for the info and your time :).
LTO is excellent for motorcycle battery. I build one for my motorcycle with Toshiba SCiB LTO. It starts the engine almost immediately. The measured CCA is over 400A for five 3Ah packs in series.
See this is what happens when you don't go to school. You can do critical thinking on another level and get better results. I also only did 10 years of basic education in Hungary and was running circles around Mechanical Engineers in the USA. They just can't think out of the box. Good video, mate!!!
10:10 Im with you on that burner phone for the chinese software, got some for a BMS for my electric bike and it wanted access to make phone calls and if you denied it access it wouldnt run so stuck on an old phone.
Haha first I was amazed by the engineering that went in to your bank so clever, then I was thinking ooh camper van on the beach this guy is brave, then I saw it was a Unimog and hit Subscribe!!!
Haha, thanks! Unimogs deff have their appeal. To coin a phrase tho... owning a Unimog is a bit like having an erection and a migraine at the same time!
I was expecting a DIY build, but wow! You have ALL the best equipment and the brains to make it work. Can I just bring my project to you and write a check? :)
Sorry Erin... I noticed something on my computer getting messed up after I commented on a few comments. I should have refreshed the page before I replied. Thanks for the comment btw. Unfortunately I'm quite time poor at the moment!
Dont worry mate, school doesnt teach you much, I left also. Qualified mechanic, but I have learnt more just working on my own. Engineer at heart. That puncture test, wow. Subscribed.
I'm still learning all this stuff, so forgive the dumb question - how many of these cells would it take to build up a pack that is 400ah (basically the equivalent of a pair of 200ah batteries that are in wide usage in vans)? These say 40ah so is it just simple multiplication, i.e. ten cells? The other aspect of these is the size; I'm guessing just looking at you handling that one cell that for the capacity, building up a bank using these cells would require more physical space than would normal batteries adding up to the equivalent storage capacity? Seems one would sacrifice physical space for a bit lower price?
No dumb questions when yr learning... please try and change your terminology to Wh rather than Ah. Are you meaning in comparison with lithium or AGM? AGM realistically has around half the capacity of lithium for the same capacity if that makes any sense! So you'd be looking around 50 cells for an equivalent in Lithium and half that for an equivalent to AGM. The size is probably more dependent on the shape of the cells. These are cylindrical, that being said you lose about 20% volume as a consequence. These cells are also available in prismatic where they are rectangular.
@@brendontait6968 I should have been more specific; in comparison with LiFePO4 batteries, so the closest (as best I can tell) other option. I have watched some of Will's vids where he builds a pack out of the rectangular ones too, but are those the same chemistry as the cylindricals you used in this vid?
@@scottweikert5189 LTO come in cylindrical and prismatic (rectangular). There are things that should be taken into account that haven't been covered by Will to my knowledge. I'll cover them in later videos. Cheers
@@brendontait6968 yeah but when you factor in the life span of those batteries that's where they end up actually being extremely extremely cheap for a battery
@@brendontait6968 prismatic calb cells can be found at $129 3.2v 100ah. Large amounts of support are available for lifepo4 cells. Also, they are another safe chemistry. $3830 for loose cell 9.5kw
Agreed. There is different tests to determine the watt hours of a battery, so it is kind of a meaningless number. It gives an idea of how much energy is in the battery, but how much you'll actually get will depend on how you discharge it. But since batteries do not specify how the watt hours are determined, it really is a useless metric.
@@mountainman4410 I was thinking about the BMW I3 which for some reason was Designated with a Amp rating in the sales and you had to dig to find the KWh rating of the battery.
That was impressive and even better, you're right here in NZ. I prefer to use the smaller gauge soft fencing wire, which I don't think you can even buy these days, but chuck in a bit of number eight somewhere for that Kiwi feel and you'll have a winning combination (as if it needs it). Great work.
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A man after my own heart. I’ve owned 2 Unimogs, for beekeeping. Built lithium titanate battery banks and have only high school education. We are like brothers who have never met.
Whoa... 2 unimogs! Cheers.
@@brendontait6968 must have big feet and wide hips
I have four brothers and sisters that never went to school at all. And they all read and write English and Spanish, and do all sorts of things without a single day in school. and one of them is so handy that can do just about anything, and also does architect work in a computer, blue prints and all, and has never taken a single course in computers or architecture. And I have son that went to school and graduated from university and doesn't even have job. We the old times are much better off. I too grew up on the streets, but did have education. But before placing a single foot in school rooms, I already knew how to read write and math at high school levels. And all I have used of education is what I learned before going to school, I greatly admire people like you.
As an electrician, I appreciate your engineering skills. I do have a couple of suggestions: Best to use copper bus bars. If not, use tin coated aluminium bus bars. Aluminium oxide, which forms very quickly on bare aluminium, is very resistant to electrical current. The star washers you used may save your bus bars from melting by piercing through the oxide coating and providing a decent (not optimal) connection to the un-oxodized aluminium. Tin coated bus bars are protected from oxidation by the tin. The last option would be to sand the connection areas and use a non-oxidizing electrically conductive grease on the aluminium. This grease can be purchased through most electrical supply houses and many hardware stores. I would also use lockwashers on the studs along with nylock nuts (and no thread-lock compound, but anti-seize compound). When aluminum under compression connections is heated, it will ooze out of the connection. Then when the connection cools, it will contract, leaving a small space between the connection that allows oxides to form. Aluminium wire must be re-tightened every 5 years to accommodate this issue. Copper holds a memory of its shape and will expand back to its original shape instead of oozing out of the connection. The lock-washer will provide compressive force to the connection that will expand to prevent loosening over time, a must on all battery connections. Or better than that, use a bellville washer. It is used to make electrical connections. It is very slightly cone shaped and made of spring steel, so it provides the best expansive connection to make up for thermal expansion and contraction. But they are very expensive. I looked at building a similar system for my home, but went with used Tesla batteries for now. I would assemble them like so: Battery cell---Anti seize compound on stud--Stainless steel nylock nut---Stainless steel flat washer---No Ox grease---copper bussbar---No Ox grease---Stainless steel flat washer--bellville or stainless steel lockwasher---anti-seize compound on stud---then finally, a stainless steel nylock nut. I would use the same system for aluminium bus bars. The nut on both sides of the bus bar is to prevent the stud from putting tension on the cell. All my best to you and your system. You are very correct to look at cost per cycle instead of just cost per kw hour capacity. You will pay more up front, but a lot less in the long run.
Thanks for your comprehensive advice. I didn't use copper because it would likely have cost close to as much as the cells and then have many points of dissimilar metal contact. I appreciate ali can be problematic with the oxide layer. Each point of contact was lightly sanded and had a light coating of grease (not conductive - but have previously found non conductive grease works fairly well). Am hoping the relatively low currents through each connection will mean low stress and a lack of issue (optimism at it's finest). If for eg I'm pulling 3kW, it will be pulling around 15A through each cell connection. Cheers, let me know how your tesla system works out for you.
What if he used standard copper pluming pipes 15mm diameter 1mm thick? flatten them with hammer = 23mm wide, 2mm thick, is that good enough? they are affordable , seen many people on YT make DIY Battery Terminals out of them, would it work for his applications? in fact I think maybe he could just retro fit his existing busbar (if this current system allows for 24mm length expansion), he just needs to buy 3-4 pipes at 5m long cost around NZ40 (USD28) each on trademe.co.nz
@@leoncryp8182 While it will work, it is not ideal. Copper pipe often uses a slightly different formula than typical copper bar and sheet stock used for electrical in order to maintain stiffness. The process of hammering out the copper tubing can also cause the copper to crystallize. This is the same as if you bend a copper (or steel) wire back and forth enough, the metal will eventually break due to crystallization. This crystallization also creates a very high resistance in the copper. This is why one is required to use stranded copper wire for flexible connections or power cords. I have seen solid conductor building wire catch fire from being misused as extension cord material. Seems like a lot of work, when you could buy the sheet copper online for not much more. The dangers of getting a battery system wrong can be catastrophic.
@@GoCoyote Thanks for the insight, buying proper copper sheets sounds like the way to go, what if you had a small project and and some pipe lying around, burn copper with a touch? kind of annealing it or something, would that relax and soften up the crystal structures? seen people do that to bend copper and aluminium, heat then bend slightly, heat again and keep bending, gets very nice smooth bends
@@leoncryp8182 I apologize, but that is beyond the basic knowledge that I have. I often tell people that I have a lot of (hopefully) informed opinions, and hopefully, some facts. One my apprenticeship instructors told us that there is no way that we can memorize all of the information we need to know, as knowledge changes all the time. The thing we need to be able to do is know enough to be able to know that you don't know something, and that there are resources to give us that information.
This was actually the very first of your videos that I've watched and I have to say your presentations are, without a doubt, the very best I've ever seen. For a high-school dropout, you seem to be rather well educated and articulate and master of an astonishing array of skills. By now, I've watched everything you've filmed and published on RUclips and am eagerly looking forward to your next piece. Thank you.
Hey Bob... thanks so much for the comments and compliment.
You are not a drop out. You are a craftsman. What craftsmen have done for centuries.
I still dropped out, so technically am! It doesn't concern me in the slightest tho... am glad I did, and should have dropped out sooner! Cheers
Wow that Panasonic cell went from zero to spastic in no time. Never seen a reaction like that.
Forbidden beyblade
Thank you for explaining the importance of using watts vs amps for your power bank/ draw etc. It amazes me how many people are stuck on amps when there are many different power systems.
Hey, no problem, yeah I'm amazed too!
"If you ARE stuck in the amp-hour mindset, change it..." 100% THANK YOU!
I agree with you.
I would just design 25% over my needs and call it good with any battery
why? it's a good podcast..
Was heading to bed, came upon this video and saw "yet another battery build" - can watch later. Then you mentioned LTO and I just had to watch it right away. Really impressive build on a chemistry which isn't very well covered. I was even more impressed as I watched on that you did the tests and they actually came out to be 40+. Wasn't expecting that. Good stuff!
Hey, thanks for staying up! Glad you enjoyed
VERY INTERESTING AND NOT TO LONG AT ALL !!CHEERS FOR YOUR TIME !!
Cheers Jamie
Never realized there where proper fireworks in my old laptops. Thanx!
No stress
you're probably joking, but be aware that the fumes can be highly toxic and caustic to your lungs.
@@w0ttheh3ll Would never intentionally overcharge or expose a battery. Hell, I turn in my prius bad cell for recycling after replacing the bad modules. Thank you for looking out for the less intelligent on the internet though.
My first and only, lithium battery explosion was some 8 or 10 years ago! On a homemade battery pack! It happened during charging! At that moment I had a cat in a transport box, not even a meter away! It came from the vet shortly before the episode. The transport box, literally saved the animal.
Fortunately no physical injuries occur to the cat! But the poor thing was visibly shaken! By having several cells bursting/exploding into flames, in a rather spectacular way! Some parts of the cells hit the ceiling! :-o
Also luckily when it happened I was quite close and could react very fast! Throwing the entire unit to the outer deck and into the snow! Which literally saved the house... In fact I had been most of the morning out. It would have been dramatic to say the least! Old wooden house (rented), with carpet floors and wallpaper! You get the picture! In spite of much washing and scrubbing, the wall always testimony the episode! ;-)
NEVER underestimate the destruction power of a damaged battery!
Cheers
@@crpth1 Improper charging setup on cells without protection circuit?
Brendon, the type of guy that challenges the great Will Prowse and shows his calculations! Plus you add the structural components to make it a complete off-the-shelf package. Subbed!
Thanks Jim
@@brendontait6968 Hi, great video, thanks for the clear explanation. I’m researching building a small, lightweight electric driven boat and these batteries look more attractive option than 18650’s for so many reasons. Way heavier than petrol of course but I’m sick of the fumes and noise. I live in Ōhope, BoP, NZ so I’m particularly interested in your supply and shipping costs and challenges. Following your link the shipping costs appear to be quite high. What was your experience? On the loctite front, I use the low strength version (222) for this type of application.
Thanks, yeah I was going to do 18650s for the truck, but after looking on some Facebook pages where I've never seen such a large collection of burned down houses in one place I decided to go a different route. Battery freight to NZ is an absolute punish. I still have some for sale if you want to buy from me, flick me a message on insta
ruclips.net/video/iOBSxEqXUQc/видео.html
As someone who studied engineering in university, I am genuinely impressed with your knowledge of engineering principles (expansion/contraction, bending moments, and so on).
Cause he just dropped out of school, not stupid. Society is so misleading.
@@jasongrinnell1986 Most people who drop out don't have the time or energy to educate themselves to this degree, so it's still pretty surprising and interesting.
Worth praising Mr. Tait for.
@@jasongrinnell1986 if my comment made it seem that I am of the opinion that drop outs are stupid, nothing is further from the truth. I dropped out of high school myself, because I was bored with high school classes and frustrated at the slow pace. I simply studied the prerequisites for structural engineering independently and wrote the entrance exam for mature student status. Also, intelligence is, in part, irrelevant in this case as one would still need to spend the time and energy to gain a reasonable comprehension of the aforementioned engineering principles.
@@waiqiao6875 always depends on that persons passion
Thanks Eric
The details were very nice, right down to the preferred bolts. Much appreciated.
I'm a pretty innovative bloke with patented excavator technology and I rate Brendan highly. I am to embark on completing my trike as electrically powered and I am convinced to use these LTO batteries. Also, I have taken note of the mechanical points Brendan mentions in the construction of the battery pack; I can't/won't be using the same extruded Aluminium rail and I don't have access to CND milling or laser technology, which will be outsourced using my own DXF files, but the principles to control for expansion and to protect the batteries is highly relevant. I particularly appreciate Brendan's post-analysis of what he would have done differently and I will go for a 48V system too for the added benefit of being able to use smaller cables and reducing heat losses. I will be adding an extra flanged nut on each battery terminal to better accommodate any differences in battery length and to provide the thred lock. This video has pointed me in the right direction when I might have been swayed by the otherwise talented Will Prowse mentioned. I would be up for a collective purchase of batties and will check out the links in this video. Thank you Brendan!
Do it n run a geny motor spinning off some bit with momentum and charge as ya go if ya can & be safe
to all
The passion for knowledge and the acquisition of such knowledge, has never been owned by universities or any other educational institute. The passion to achieve is almost totally driven from within. I designed my first radio's and signal generator at 10 years old, because I had an insatiable curiosity to do so at that young age
Your analysis is the most complete and logical I have come across. Thank you, well done!
Thanks!
Mate, there is a reason you have 'no formal training', you are simply self taught better than any university could do. Thankyou for the education you provide.
Cheers mate
bingo... same here... high school dropout, zero college, six figure salary. According to all the debt laden diploma's I should be flipping burgers if I am lucky. If a person wants to learn very little is going to prevent them. I have found my standards for education exceed that or formal education by a significant degree. I am never sending my children to those clowns!
I thought I knew something about campervan batteries ... Until I watched this video. Brendon you set the bar high. Thanks for sharing this knowledge
Just scratching the surface, I'll go into more detail on diff batteries in future vids. Glad you took something from the vid =)
I have no idea why your channel popped up, but I'm so glad it did, one of the beat videos I've seen regarding this kind of stuff. Was such a wonderful video to watch.
Hey Kenneth, I'm glad it popped up too! Appreciate it!
Fantastic video. I love that you jump to the point. And so much information learned from your experience. Education is for cattle. Thanks!
Holy crap, this guy is amazing! Workmanship and skills are out of this world. Much respect to you, Mr. Tait. Subscribed.
Thanks so much Amo
Lots of good info, much appreciated.
Especially the proper value of batteries as rated by power and cycle life.
Thanks - will deff try to get as much info into future videos as I can
You read my mind; background and qualifications! Yes. Thank you.
Kia ora brother your information and intentions are amazing many people will grow from your info, you made understanding easier, as a designer of self-reticulating hydroelectricity systems I would like to talk more about building a true green electricity generator
Both your practical and technical knowledge are impressive and more importantly to us all, Appreciated! Lost my Bro this year (60 years old), who was accepted to college at 15 and electrical and mechanical wiz. He was my go to for all things related (and truly would appreciated your knowledge and approach), we walked through more of this the past years plus, and appreciate those who (like you) post such information and support such a personal loss of go to knowledge. Thanks! Subscribing.
Cheers David. Sorry to hear about your bro 😞
I find coming back and watching the machining in this video to be therapeutic. Excited for your build!
Have you decided to find a different battery load tester?
Hey Levi... hope you guys are well. Yeah I find watching the machine hypnotic, maybe I'll put some more in my videos. Thanks... yeah I have a few update videos to catch up on, but have been away for a decent trip in the truck and absolutely love it!
Yeah, but it took two more purchases to find one that kinda worked!
@@brendontait6968 - what did you end up with? I’ve been trying to decide one for testing 18660’s and other small cells
18650s? I use the Opus BT-C3100 for smaller cells. Works well, they can crap out with heavy use. (I've put around 1,000 cells through one) else I've linked the current larger one that I use on my cold testing video.
This is one of the best and well-thought battery packs I have seen.
Thanks for that!
Perfect length very good watch lots of reasonable information. Thank you for the great insight!
Thanks
I helped a friend with the same problem of rigid busbar. Use heavy equipment battery cables the are rectangular shape looking at them from the end view. They let expansion and contraction happen and really conduct so much better than aluminum. The copper is plated with tin also which helps with corrosion. Worked for he. Peace. VF
Got 1 minute in and knew I liked this guy... haven’t watched the whole
Video yet but something tells me
I’m gonna taking this advice.
Some people, just have a flair for cutting through the bs.
Hard to find these days!
Cheers dude
Thanks Jacob... but this battery is kinda new to me so don't trust everything I say!
I have only watched to 6:35 so far but I love how You have allready told me You have no prior qualifications and also demonstrated how your design is based on in depth understanding of physical and chemical properties of the subject matter. I feel like the World missed out when it did not give you a engineering grade and a research job! Wełl done M8.
Thanks... don't forget to watch the rest
I really like how you ended the presentation, telling us what you would have done differently. When I saw the RED thread lock, I cringed because of my own experience with the stuff. I have bolts break before it releases. I was thinking to protect from loosening due to vibration, Blue thread lock would do fine.
Another issue is the use of aluminum because it does form an insulating oxide layer, but this can be avoided with the use of dielectric grease to minimize the available oxygen.
Outstanding video! Love that you dropped out of Hugh school and have still managed to educate yourself so well ;)
Gorgeous use of this technology. As a schooled electrician I will assert the importance of proper dielectric grease whenever connecting anything aluminum to itself and or dissimilar metals especially tin plated copper lugs. I may have missed that step.. I saw lock tite. Very important especially with such enormous currents. Positive reinforcement awesome build.
Thanks, check around 8:20 where I apply a wipe of silicone grease to the terminals. Cheers
Very informative Brendon thank you. Trying to work out what to use in an offgrid battery for a house in the UK. Never really come across LTO before as most people I talk to are trying to sell me something and LiFePO4 is an easier sell/profit for them selling to people who aren't curious as to choices availible and long term efficeincy and cost.. If possible I prefer to either build whatever I can or at least fully understand how it works, so your video is just perfect. Simple explaination, easy to check up on what you are saying, so thank you. Education is what I do and I enjoyed being educated by your video.. Cheers
Really glad you showed that battery test fire!!
That was awesome ... I had no idea it had that energy
Very interesting video, I like that you considered things like expansion etc. I'll be watching for more information especially on charging regimes and bms system.
Thanks, coming soon!
Ha!! Starts video with, "yeah, no formal training, just muckin' about" - then builds the best engineered battery pack YT has seen, Then corrects misconceptions about LTO battery chemistry. Definitely subscribed, great video, thanks M8!!
haha, thanks Frank
Just goes to show you that genius doesn't require a diploma.
A Badge and Seals don't always comply with the best Tuna.. Nor Good taste. Sometimes you need to go to the dock where the stuff is pulled from the ocean kudos! Hah!!!
Frank Brants , yes, the best argument showing how high school messes up your brain.
If he had a diploma he would be doing the same thing as everyone else!
Thanks for being straight forward and to the point and adding no fluff.
Cheers Scott
Very nice video mate! 48 volt systems are popular because everything telecom related in the whole world runs on -48VDC, so there’s a huge industrial use for the same components that goes into the solar power systems.
Yeah, I agree. I liked the fact that the truck operating voltage was the same, but it deff would have saved me some money. Plus I could have made my door operate at twice the speed!
@@brendontait6968 It's always a question of optimizing for your situation, I have a 3 battery 12 Volt system, and now that I'm adding inverters and stuff I'm really beating myself for not getting 4 batteries 2 years ago, then I could easily switch to 48VDC, now I'm stuck at 12VDC :)
Excellent rundown, and great project. Thank you for letting us in on the process
No worries!
Good job Brendon! Thanks for taking the effort to make this video, it was helpful. I am pondering a battery design for my boat to replace the generator. New Hampshire, USA.
Glad it was helpful!
That was a great episode Brendon, thanks very much for sharing your research:D looking forward to more!
Thanks Vik, I enjoy doing things differently to how most people do. Not everything is going to work, but it's a good learning experience.
Im currently researching battery banks for my houseboat and this is a very smart and very well desinged system super impressed
Thanks Sean, first attempt at battery too! Normally the first version of anything I make is terrible, but this has performed really well and not sure I'd change anything about the design if I were to build it again. Sometimes dumb luck plays a part in design!
There may be no letters after your name but you are very smart and common sense you cant buy. This is truly one of the best no nonsense videos I have seen, extremely logical, and very well explained. Thanks so much I am definitely going to replicate your build. You are also a joy to listen to, looking forward to watching your other videos. Keep it going.
Cheers Adrian
You are doing great work. Thank you for uploading these videos, I am learning new things.. Cheers!
Holy shit. You're frigging awesome. I'm in WLG, was just about to hit the buy now on Trademe for a 200AH Lithium. Problem for me is the safety, I've had experience of LiPo's catching fire in RC car builds... I'll email tonight.
these are insanely safe !
Awesome video! I'm still years away from my LMTV build and this is great information!
Make a start - I'm just piecing it together bit at a time. Have no idea what will work and what won't yet
Thanks for your hard work to build,test and prove use of this battery is possible. I will seriously consider making up a system for my home as the cost is far less than a Tesla unit and longer life. Kudos to you.
Thanks Kim, It was a big risk as I had previously not had experience with these cells. Am happy with how it is working
This is one of the best videos on this subject that I've seen, good information, elegant design... I also recommend reading the description, which contains some complementary information and file links.
Thanks other brother. I need to get off my butt and make more!
I love how after punching the hole in that battery, he didnt talk about nearly shitting his pants.
For a highschool drop out you are doing some kick ass engineering!
Thanks - a lot more to come!
Schooling has zero to do with intelligence.
@@markfisher8943 considering Einstein's third gr teacher said he was too slow to be in her class. His mum kept that stupid letter from him and taught him herself.✌️
Great build. I have few of these cells and wondered about how I can package them together and you gave me some few great tips! In general in automotive application, LTOs are not so popular in most builds since kWh per Kg in power density is where these are far behind compared to other Lithium chemistries. I worked with these in City Buses where they may have a short range like 50-80km but have dual charging port to pump in as much amperage (8-10c) in for 5-10 minutes and go another 50-80km - it was pretty sweet to see them work. LTO (Altairnano/Yinlong) is an odd duck that has some interesting applications. They do degrade about 1% a year and also wants to be charged with high amps if you want to them to perform well. Share more about your experience with BMS and other related things. Thanks for sharing. Subscribed!
thanks!
we can provide yinlong lto battery for you if you need
I never completed high school either .
But that didn't stop me from being successful, l learned more in the first 12 months of work from a great and patient mentor/employer than l did for the previous 9 years.
Then a couple of years in the army taught me how to be independent so l spent the next 50 years working for myself without any trade qualifications, now I'm retired and living life to the full.
I'm also interested in finding the best off grid batteries and inverter system.
You have now started a fire under me, thanks.
I knew the retailer was asking way too much for gear he didn't know enough about, their in it for the money and just don't care about the customer, this is why l started to research You Tube .
Thanks.
Cheers Jim
This video addressed most of my concerns about putting a battery bank together with various chemistries. Thank you for all of the hard work. My only issue that I see is 2.4v times 5 cells is only 12.0 - - I'd be worried that's not a high eenough voltage for my system which shuts off at 11.7v and would be much more comfortable with 6 cells in series which provides adequate headroom at 14.4v
buggzo 6 cells parallel is 2,4v. Or what do I know
I assume you mean series and not parallel. Is there a specific reason you want to use a 12V system. I'm using 24V and I think that is on the low limit. 12V is even less! But yeah 6S is probably the way I'd go if I were doing 12V.
@@brendontait6968 yes I did mean series and not parallel. Will edit. That's just currently what my inverter is - 12V system. I can switch to 24v or 48v. Have been thinking about it. But I'd have to buy a new mppt charger and inverter. Currently needing to replace my AGM batteries so it's all up in the air for now.
@@4486igi absolutely correct. Edited to be accurate now
Have a think about where you want your system to go to future proof it. I'm running dual induction hobs, electric oven, electric hot water and domestic fridge. It can do it, but just. I wouldn't want to run any lower voltage. If you are looking at increasing your draw. Consider selling your inverter, mppt etc and buy an all in one? One thing to be aware of is some lithium batteries have a limit on max series voltage, so keep this in mind.
I feel to measure the power then compliance voltage plays a massive part on the measurement accuracy, that's why some measurements at low voltage with say a current shunt & moving iron ammeter in the same circuit might give different readings due to compliance voltage & connection lead resistance, chart recorder to measure terminal voltage & current across a dc shunt with a fancy constant current load would be the answer there are proper units out there but expensive !
Compliance voltage is very important when trying to measure power or one can make mistakes say from a CT transformer using thin long leads to a moving iron meter,
Yes very impressive metalwork, cost a massive amount of £$,
I would have that sort of power in a brick shed, not in the bedroom for sure, always worried about fire risk, I rather have a purpose built brick shed or metal container,
Those batteries are really like a super capacitor.
Really nice engineering 👌
The information in this channel is giving me an addiction. #invaluable.
So glad to hear this... thanks!
Re: your cost calculations, those aren’t “per kWh”, they’re “per kWhcycle”. Which is a totally valid comparison once you venture outside a particular battery type! But it isn’t *that* new an idea.
My unit was intended to show cost per kWh of power delivered and not storage capacity. So for example... where I live, power costs around 13c/kWh (usd). People think that if they have solar charging batteries, their power is free. I was trying to show the actual cost of power delivery from different battery chemistries. So for eg if you had bought those AGM batteries, (and you'd been given the rest of the solar setup for free) each kWh of electricity that you used would cost you 48c
@@brendontait6968 You nailed it. Definitely the most relevant way to compare kWh costs to a normal on-grid set-up. The cost per kWh for the life of the batteries. The nerdy mathematicians might be right - the units are cost/kWh/cycle, but they miss the point - how to amortise the cost of the batteries in delivering each kWh, which have a limited life. And then there is the cost of all the other components. Some may need to be replaced in the next 10 years and "life-long" components still need to have some depreciation cost apportioned to them, even if it is only what that money could be doing for you elsewhere (5% per annum ?).
and he is right that is the true cost of the batteries.
@@Slebonson consider the cost of electricity for all of the people that are buying replacement batteries at about $2,000 a kilowatt hour and they have to be replaced about every 500 Cycles. Companies like specialized. Bosch. And when you get into their lightweight much smaller batteries that the main selling point is you can bring on an airplane the cost per kilowatt-hour that the cost of electricity constitutes is insignificant. All of the cost is in the wear and tear of the batteries. Electric bicycle Market has two different types of customers. Those who spend tens of thousands of dollars on a toy they're going to use once or twice or maybe a couple times a year and then upgrade to keep up with the other one percenters and then the market place in places like India or even Singapore which although vastly different socioeconomically all recognize the bargain of a vehicle got the passenger can carry not just the vice versa. Gouging cheap chemistry's that costs much much more than Peyton 8 which you could after all permanently installed in a carbon fiber frame without any ethical compulsion to disclose to an airline that is actually an electric bike that's the way you get market share not past market share nobody cares about pasta market share when it comes to micro Mobility. It will never matter. When matter is is getting the cars off the road. Cars don't belong in public. They are toys and need to be kept at home or on private player grounds. The unicycle is what replaces the horse. It doesn't shit nor drop dead. That is if the hey you put in the frame has been properly fed with titanium.
@@markknotten1210 500 cycles ? Not even 2 years
Newbie here, I have some questions that I think you would have the answers to.
1. Could you install one of these capacitors on a vehicle to extend the battery life?
2. If I was bored one day and wanted to make my vehicle into a hybrid using an electric motor, could I use a bunch of these capacitors instead of a battery for the immediate energy storage from deceleration and acceleration factor?
I must say, you are the smartest high school drop out I've met so far.
Hey, firstly they aren't capacitors. But they can throw out power like you'd expect from caps.
1. I don't think you'd see a significant increase in battery life by attaching one of these to it. Starter lead acid batteries actually like short bursts of high drain from them as you'd see with starter loads, it can help break down the lead sulfate that can build up on the plates.
2. These are a battery - the reality is you could use pretty much any type of battery - but these have the advantage that they can throw power in and out faster than most. So yeah a smaller pack could take bigger deceleration and acceleration loads.
Thanks!
High school dropout here too, not trained in science, but have a passion for it and over the years, have gained a lot of knowledge and I am self taught. I get that reaction sometimes too, lol.
Well said!
@@brendontait6968 Back here after 8 months, because I realized once I researched this again recently, that LTO batteries actually rock! I never knew it at the time, but once I read about them recently when thinking about building a lithium solar and wind system, I was impressed and this came up as suggested video for me. Then I realized I had been here before, hehehehe. Man, aging is not fun, this kind of thing happens more often to me now, as I get older. *facepalm. Great explanation though, love your bus bars and setup, how awesome.
that puncture test was impresssive!!
Right?!
First build I've seen where dude goes all in on yin cells
must have won the lottery before starting this project ;-)
@@marcelbron6128 He said $55 each x 99 = $5,445. That's high, but not unreasonable for a large RV battery pack.
Can't wait to see what you've got to show us! Thank you very much for making this content.! I'd really like the solar power solution content you've mentioned. It's a jungle out there. You are really good at explaining things, i understand it with my electronics education from highschool. Thanks please keep them coming!
Cheers lorenzo
Brilliant. Love discovering handy channels like this and you know when a guy just knows what the they’re talking about. I’d like to get some of those batteries and find some environmental ways of generating power.
Cheers Drummer, I'm the same. My intent is to go fully offgrid.
I am truly impressed that you are not a trained engineer, because the engineering language and facts and figures that you quote are unlike any trained engineer I have worked with, this does you great credit a a self trained engineer. Incidentally A/h only really applies to DC systems and not really work accurately as an AC system power use measure.
Thanks for that John, Ah isn't typically used on AC systems because it's not a measure of energy capacity which is the same reason it shouldn't be used on DC systems. Obviously with AC you have the possibility of reactive power draw. Try avoid putting the "/" in the unit - it kindof reverses it's meaning. It isn't amps per hour (which would be amps divided by the number of hours), it's amps multiplied by the hours that it is delivered for.
Cheers
Hi Brendon
In my message there was a slip up. It was meant to be complimentary, but didn’t read that way. It should have read not unlike any engineers I’ve known.
That was great! It reminded me of a 4th of July "Ground Bloom Flower."
Exactly
Sounded like one too. And it was constructed like one with how the hole made was just off center to the tube shape of the thing. Guaranteed that there was a lot more energy in that spray than there is in one of those cauliflower things. I did not know that they got that angry.
I have watched more videos then you could imagine on here but this build was amazing mate.
Thanks!
Your home insurance company watching this video like 👀.
I saw the thumbnail and heavily considered ignoring it "just another electrical video of more of the same". I was dead wrong. You sir, are exceptional! I'm also an autodidact and everything I know, I've taught myself so I can relate with you and also, you have my respect. Those are some amazing fabricating/machining/electrical/planning skills you got there mate! Glad I clicked on this video, looking forward to seeing more content from you :) Edit: That battery array turned out absolutely beautifully.
Hey Andres, thanks so much for the compliment. Cheers
Cool camper! Been watching you/LTO tech almost 2 years!
You can heat locative up with a soldering iron or some other heat source to make it pliable sos not to do damage to your batteries, neutral cure silicon is a good soft threadlocker , great post cheers for the info and your time :).
Woah!! well now I have to go find batteries to puncture! That was amazing LOL
you might as well stand next to a huge firecracker
but you shouldn't
Holy Sh^T Someone is finally doing it! People have been waiting for this for a lonnnng time!
thanks! am into unique builds, learn so much more than just copying what everyone else does
@@brendontait6968 A commendable attitude. Although sometimes other people have just worked out good solutions worth copying.
LTO is excellent for motorcycle battery. I build one for my motorcycle with Toshiba SCiB LTO. It starts the engine almost immediately. The measured CCA is over 400A for five 3Ah packs in series.
See this is what happens when you don't go to school.
You can do critical thinking on another level and get better results.
I also only did 10 years of basic education in Hungary and was running circles around Mechanical Engineers in the USA. They just can't think out of the box.
Good video, mate!!!
Thanks Veggie
wow, very cool. I'm subscribing to keep up with the results of this.
10:10 Im with you on that burner phone for the chinese software, got some for a BMS for my electric bike and it wanted access to make phone calls and if you denied it access it wouldnt run so stuck on an old phone.
Super important post IMO, due to the CCP. The chinese people are good people but the chinese communist party is evil.
@@GoZipper You worded that perfectly. The Chinese people are good people, but in China, they are burdened by the yoke of the CCP. It is sad.
Great video thank you, every day is a school day 🤙🏼
I miss home ... listening to you was cool... waiting patiently in Europe to come back 💓🤙🏼
Thx... tho a lot of people say they can't understand a word that I'm saying! Gotta say NZ is a good place to be in the world at the moment.
Guy's an absolute Friggin genius with out question !
Haha first I was amazed by the engineering that went in to your bank so clever, then I was thinking ooh camper van on the beach this guy is brave, then I saw it was a Unimog and hit Subscribe!!!
Haha, thanks! Unimogs deff have their appeal. To coin a phrase tho... owning a Unimog is a bit like having an erection and a migraine at the same time!
@@brendontait6968 Don't know where to put your hand ? Hold your forehead or ... ?
.....your hard-on ???
@@brendontait6968 well that phrase can be wrapped up into one word, viagra!
@@brendontait6968 Okay, I'm going to write that one down!
I was expecting a DIY build, but wow! You have ALL the best equipment and the brains to make it work. Can I just bring my project to you and write a check? :)
Thanks Michael, I didn't use red locktite - I used an equiv to blue, but am still unsure. Have updated link. Thanks
@@brendontait6968 - Michael? I think you responded to the wrong comment. 😎
Sorry Erin... I noticed something on my computer getting messed up after I commented on a few comments. I should have refreshed the page before I replied. Thanks for the comment btw. Unfortunately I'm quite time poor at the moment!
@@brendontait6968 absolutely not a problem, it’s all good!
A very nice video! What kind of BMS are you using with these cells?
I'm just using a shitty chinese BMS in a couple of weeks I'll do a video of BMS wiring and will cover it there.
Thanks
@@brendontait6968 look into the 6s qnbbms coupled with an isdt battgo for voltage monitoring. The 2 work great together.
Dont worry mate, school doesnt teach you much, I left also. Qualified mechanic, but I have learnt more just working on my own. Engineer at heart. That puncture test, wow. Subscribed.
Cheers, yeah... I haven't lost any sleep over dropping out of school.
I've been looking at incorporating this into my home backup instead of 12v lead acid. Cool use!
what a powerhouse !
No schools have ever made dreams come true it's the person that makes the world turn
I'm still learning all this stuff, so forgive the dumb question - how many of these cells would it take to build up a pack that is 400ah (basically the equivalent of a pair of 200ah batteries that are in wide usage in vans)? These say 40ah so is it just simple multiplication, i.e. ten cells?
The other aspect of these is the size; I'm guessing just looking at you handling that one cell that for the capacity, building up a bank using these cells would require more physical space than would normal batteries adding up to the equivalent storage capacity? Seems one would sacrifice physical space for a bit lower price?
No dumb questions when yr learning... please try and change your terminology to Wh rather than Ah. Are you meaning in comparison with lithium or AGM? AGM realistically has around half the capacity of lithium for the same capacity if that makes any sense! So you'd be looking around 50 cells for an equivalent in Lithium and half that for an equivalent to AGM. The size is probably more dependent on the shape of the cells. These are cylindrical, that being said you lose about 20% volume as a consequence. These cells are also available in prismatic where they are rectangular.
@@brendontait6968 50 x $60 = $3000 FYI
@@brendontait6968 I should have been more specific; in comparison with LiFePO4 batteries, so the closest (as best I can tell) other option.
I have watched some of Will's vids where he builds a pack out of the rectangular ones too, but are those the same chemistry as the cylindricals you used in this vid?
@@scottweikert5189 LTO come in cylindrical and prismatic (rectangular). There are things that should be taken into account that haven't been covered by Will to my knowledge. I'll cover them in later videos. Cheers
In like six words (i.e. don't spend more than a couple seconds typing), what's the difference between the two aside from the shape? :)
Great job. I had just finished watching Will’s video and then watched yours. Thanks
Thanks Deb, always good to see two perspectives right
I agree with you. Nice build and explanation. Keep it up.
wow, I didn't expect that to happen.
The price on these quadrupled last year when car audio guys found out about em.
I remember them being $10 each.
$61 NZD each now wow dont think I can afford to get some just to play with.
It's all fun and games until you realize the batteries alone all add up to over US$5000.
Yeah, batteries cost money unfortunately. The equivalent capacity in renogy would have been around $6,500
@@brendontait6968 yeah but when you factor in the life span of those batteries that's where they end up actually being extremely extremely cheap for a battery
@@brendontait6968 prismatic calb cells can be found at $129 3.2v 100ah. Large amounts of support are available for lifepo4 cells. Also, they are another safe chemistry. $3830 for loose cell 9.5kw
People think "solar saves money". They don't pick up on batteries to store the energy IF the sun shines. NZ...wonderful son!
Hi there if you want to release the locked tight
easily just use a heat gun and warm it up a little bit
Now THAT was worth the price of admission. Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge!!
Cheers Owen
25 years life? Sweet, mine are rated for 10 years. I did this because solar panels are rated for 10 years.
SO two expensive things to replace at the same time?
That looked awesome the battery dieing
If you don't specify the voltage, amp hour is meaningless.
Agreed. There is different tests to determine the watt hours of a battery, so it is kind of a meaningless number. It gives an idea of how much energy is in the battery, but how much you'll actually get will depend on how you discharge it. But since batteries do not specify how the watt hours are determined, it really is a useless metric.
Every battery specifies its voltage. Every person (Hopefully) knows the voltage of the system they are building.
@@mountainman4410 I was thinking about the BMW I3 which for some reason was Designated with a Amp rating in the sales and you had to dig to find the KWh rating of the battery.
No, the kWh was noted.
That was impressive and even better, you're right here in NZ. I prefer to use the smaller gauge soft fencing wire, which I don't think you can even buy these days, but chuck in a bit of number eight somewhere for that Kiwi feel and you'll have a winning combination (as if it needs it). Great work.
Thx mate
Now I'm aware of these batteries. It was my first knowledge of these. Be Well, J.Q.
Glad you picked up some knowledge