Tom was here before the first edition; Tom remembers the first FAQ and Supplement. He read the magazines with the big people, and watched the little people enter the hobby. He was here before the weapon strikes, legendary legions and this new edition. GW can't cut him.
I don't know why you (and some others) are so keen on the game narrowing its focus to what we see in the movies, even down to wargear. This take is so bizarre to me. I get why GW is doing it (licensing, model representation), but I do not get why people like or defend this decision. Exploring the off-screen world of Middle Earth has drawn so many people to this game -- to essentially celebrate everyone mostly smashing big heroes from the films into each other in the new edition really kills me.
Exactly this. Im a massive book fan im honestly not keen on the movies. i liked the idea as a lotr fan of having what if scenarios etc. i dont want to just recreate scenes over and over again. they basically turned Matched play into narrative play. i mean i thought the whole point of the two was so people could do either, now we are essentially forced into one
@@TuorTheBlessedOfUlmo "i don't want to just recreate scenes over and over again." I couldn't agree more. I'd say it's because of licensing but they kept a bunch of GW-invented models with no apparent rhyme or reason and cut actual models from the books (and even movies in a few cases!). I thought Defense of the North and Rise of Angmar were _awesome_ supplements because it was filling out the game's universe, and they've essentially backpedaled on all of that. GAHH.
@@TJ-zs3vx i dont think game balance etc. should be effected by what minis are selling. lol look at Iron hills and tell me thats perfectly balanced... it was clearly made OP at the time to increase sales for the minis. alot of other game systems dont do it, it'd be nice if GW didnt but it is what it is unfortunately
Middle Earth is so bloated with factions, and it's mostly GW inventions that are being scrapped, I'd much rather actually get lore faithful units than bloated GW minis. I think a lot of the actual lore friendly minis, like Khamul and Balin, getting scrapped will probably get a redo in the future. That means you'll probably be able to play your legacy minis anyway, or at least have the opportunity to kitbash them.
The war in the north stuff was all a surprise. Though their line of “if it isn’t in the films then we cut it” doesn’t mesh with the Easterlings characters surviving. The named Nazgûl being dropped was a massive shame.
Cutting Tolkien characters like Erestor and Gildor, when all the stuff GW created for the Easterlings has made it through, is a big surprise. Erkenbrand and Grimbold getting the chop, when Elfhelm survives, is also a shock - you’d think either all three or none of them would go.
@ it is wild though, that Easterlings have a full range, when they’re in the movies for about two minutes marching through the Black Gate, and are never seen fighting. You’d think GW would absolutely slice through most of the range, but it makes sense since they’re fairly popular.
The Kings champion was such a center piece for all Khazad-dum and Kingdom of Moria players. The army is going to need a buff to stay competitive. I took him in a 1000pt Khazad dum list for a tournament and he was amazing.
Wait, do the channels not know the Khamul is canon and part of the main story? Khamul is actually the only named wraith (by Tolkien) in the lore! He should have stayed for sure. Sad!
As a new player, I'm so sad about the removal of the named ringwraiths and the purge of the fallen realms. Now : - far harad and khand are impossible to buy. - corsairs only have delgamar and the corsair warriors, since arbalesters, dalamyr, the hasharin and the black numenoreans aren't even on the website anymore. - serpent horde is reduced to Suladan, regular heroes, warriors, cavalry and serpent guard which isnt that different in terms of gameplay (+ the mumak). - only the Easterlings are unscathed even though basically everything is a games workshop invention. Those were my favourite armies and now I'll have to either accept that loss or find proxies/secondhand minis. The loss of Dunland which i found so cool is also a pain:((
Surprised about Balin dwarf king of Moria getting cut from Khazad-dum. Also Erestor just got rereleased and now he’s relegated to legacies. Gildor inglorion being removed is a surprise and that also takes the lothlorien elves he can take for Rivendell
Most surprising is to me the cut of the Kingdom of Khazad-Dum range. Yes Durin and his kingdom remain, but I really hope they get a big glow up. They need it and lost some cool models especially in their Kingdom of Moria variant.
I like the idea of cutting some of the older and less used models and am fine with most of the decisions. But there are some models I really liked to play with and think they were fitting well into their armies. Mostly Erestor, Men at arms of Dol Amroth and Abrakhan Merchant Guard. And I'm sad to see the named ringwraiths go, I really liked the idea of them. Not so much of all nine in Mordor, more that Harad, Corsairs and Easterlings each had one thematic ringwraith in their list and Angmar having multiple options for larger points games.
I am floored that you are just fine with this They took models out that are in the books and kept stuff that they made themselves. there is no logical consistency besides maybe phasing out metal models where is the road map or some examples to show what these new lists are going to look like?
This was a lot more of a heavy handed purge than I expected tbh. Hopefully the legacy rules aren't total ass and the models still see a lot of play in tournaments.
I don’t see enough people talking about the changes to the Haradrim. Your infantry line is now, more or less, the same spearman over and over and over. I guess I’ll be more inclined to bring Serpent Guard now, but I’m gonna be really missing my chunky burly boys when the battle lines clash
@@Jarlballin123Some people do enjoy collecting and playing lesser-played factions. I have been lucky that Arnor has had recent attention, otherwise that would’ve been a big hit.
In September of 2022, I was getting into the game, and my focus was on Fangorn. I made a few posts around the internet pointing out that Quickbeam was actually Birchseed! I was so glad to see they saw it and fixed it in this edition, and I really hope we see other named ent profiles moving forward!
Definitely more is lost than I thought. I am most sad to see the expanded Harad range like abrakahn and karna disappear. They really did add flavour to Harad and helped flesh out this mysterious southern land. The reavers saddens me also, but as you said, it was expected.
I was preparing an Eorl and Cirion Gondor-Rohan Army so I'm sad about them going to Legacies, although I'm glad the King of Men stays in the game. I think the most bothersome thing about all this is that the criteria is not consistent nor clear enough. Things that appear in the books and movies is going away, and some GW inventions are staying. Things that were selling are being axed and things that arent very popular (woses) are staying. There's a bit about "some miniatures being rolled into other profiles" that wasnt explained and sounds interesting. Maybe that's one way to see some of the dissapearing profile's minis being used. I think they have listed the new "macro facions" from which the new LL-style lists will be drawn in this article. So Fallen Realms will most likely contain Harad and Rhun (hopefully a new khand in the future?) Elven Kingdoms will contain Lindon/Rivendell, Lorien and Mirkwood, etc. I look forward to see what lists come out of them, specially "Kingdoms of Men", which I suppose will contain Arnor and the Dúnedain
When I was young I made my own rino using a plastic toy and popsicle sticks, held together by string, safe to say it only fit 3 orcs or 4 goblins but I miss those times
To be completely honest the only one that really really bums me out is the Great Beast of Gorgoroth, I was waiting for it to come back to the store for me to grab it, I love monster models. One that is a bit of a shame is completely removing Wormtongue on Horse - I bought an extra model of him to make the conversion...oh well. I was expecting worse to be fair.
As someone who doesn't really play the game anymore and just enjoys the battle reports, I have to say that I'm really surprised to see so many profiles that are recent and fairly played being moved to legacies
THANK YOU!! It was quite frustrating watching entire 30 mins videos on this issue, where the question "what is Legacies?" wasn't answered at all. Instead we got a bunch of doom and gloom, and someone who maybe wasn't quite as familiar with the topic, was very likely leaving the video thinking that the second the new edition releases, those models would be completely unplayable. Nice to have someone give a more tempered perspective, couched with actual facts of what was published, rather than speculation presented as fact.
I think you should take what he says with a grain of salt most likel legacy will be treated like they do not exist..its like that for the other game systems
@@morgoth435 I wonder where I said people shouldn't read the articles? If you make a 30 min video about a topic, and people can come out of it with wrong information about the topic, there's something wrong with the video. You can't just assume everyone is up to date with the articles.
@18:06 i was thinking maybe they want a legion with Balin from the Erebor/thorin company list going to khazad dum either with khazad warriors or more sensibly erebor warriors
Honestly, i cant believe they decided to cut some "relatively" new models out. I hope this mean they want to take a fresh start with balance and factions and not just a copyright issue
I honestly thought the list would be WAY larger than it ended up being, just a full cull of anything not in the movies. Still a shame to lose a lot of those models, especially considering how...random some of the picks are. Easterlings being the obvious pick, with the only named character they're losing being the only one that's actually in the books. Overall it just seems like for the factions that are large enough to keep around (RIP Khand and Far Harad) the stuff they're getting rid of is Finecast, which is pretty positive I suppose. As for actual impact we simply don't know until we know what the profiles and lists look like, what new stuff is coming and what GW's plans are. If MESBG won't enter the 3-year edition cycle with big updates like GW's other games I don't really see the issue with Legacy considering all of these models will continue to be playable in like 99% of games I play (though availability still sucks obviously; GW's Twitter account mentioned MtO's for some of these models may still be on the table but it still seems unlikely).
R.I.P. my beloved Khandish Chariots, they'll see one last glorious outing before they become legacies. Luckily the IHL💚🤍🧡 will be allowing legacies at tournaments so I'll still have the option to bring Khand in the future hopefully 🤞
I have been playing the game for around two years now and have owned an army for one. minas tirith is my main army so Im glad to see none of my models are affected by legacies. Great video, I loved your input
Really bummed about Mordor. I had all named Ringwraiths, great beast of Gorgoroth and all the recent orc heroes (just finished painting zagdush and really enjoyed his rules).
@@ConquestCreations I had a list planned with simular heroes, I literally finished painting Zagdush the day before the anouncement. Good luck with the tournament though!
Really sad about the named ringwraiths. I know they're GW invention (but Khamul!), but it was really cool lore addition and game variety, the usual nazgul is good but I liked to have some other options
I'm torn, I think some of the expanded fallen kingdoms and other GW developed characters were some of the best models, most creative, and inspired me the most. But I get their point for streamlining the line, and potentially making SKU room for new developments in the future.
I am not going to pick up the new rules. I am going to stick with the current rules and enjoy the armies I have now. If there will be any tournaments using current rules (which will then be "legacy"/old rules), I am happy to come and enjoy some games (and probably lose hard). I have also been waiting for Sons of Eorl coming back in rotation, but can forget about that. Will be looking at recasters or 3D printing for that one and others. Not going to hate on GW or people who do pick up the new rules, this is just a crossroads where everybody makes a choice. It isn't the first game that is hit like this and definitely won't be the last. Made the same choice for Flames of War (v3 v4).
I recently started getting into Lotr tabletop thanks to your channel! Im hoping that these models being removed are being replaced by something better. Otherwise theres always 3D prints.
Trouble is how would they fit into lists in this new LL direction? Plus, you can bet the profiles will mostly be bad since GW will not want to incentivise collection of them via the second hand market
@yaketysaks they're still going to have pure factions but the only way we'll get alliances is with LLs. And if the profiles are bad, then they shouldn't affect the top tables at tournaments anyways, so why not permit them?
Obviously really sad to see some models go oop. I was surprised that the ranger heros went. Biggest loss for me is the variety in the serpent horde list. Seems hard to play harad without a mumak now, which is a shame. On that note, other than the ones you mention, I'm probably moat surprised that the hasharin survived!
Hey, so I've just bought the battle of osgiliath which is a Christmas present... Will the rules in this set be redundant now, should I have waited (tho I didn't know about this set at the time) for the new set coming out? 🤔
Saying that Aol is not thematic is wild. It is a wild mix of Orcs, Goblins, wargs and spiders. Like all the evil spwan in one Army. That is so cool. I played a bit because of that and not because it is strong
Gutted mahud are going as half trolls are fantastic and my body type represented in the merchant guard, black guard I've just got into using as proxies but loved them. I too liked the niche gondor models, and my dol amroth pike block that Could get to fight 6 Warg marauder and dweller in the dark I loved for moria Dont think I ever had a bad game with Erkenbrand either But as you said we can still use them
Im waiting to get into this game and Wargamming in general until this new edition but what drew me to this game was the rules, price, and the depth of minitures represented in all corners of the lore. Hopefully they just plan to rerelease them with new cards
Going to be holding my breath on this one, and waiting to see what they come out with that's new in the next few months. I think they will need more than just the 12-15 or so new profiles from the WotR anime film to justify all of the cuts we're getting here. My biggest concern moving forward is, what does this mean for the potential of future supplements if GW is no longer allowed to make up characters? Sounds like a much more limited scope for future products to me... Especially as an evil player, where there's far less named characters to adapt. Variety & list building was my favourite aspect of this game. Personal RIPs: Vrasku & Mauhur, Thryden, King's Champion, & all the new FW resin kits being removed way too soon for no good reason, while plenty of citadel not-so-finecast & 23 year old sculpts remain. 😢
Celebrating Assault on Lothlorien likely being gone is so messed up. Wasn't thematic? It's based on a scene in the appendices. It was unique and fun. Was it overtuned? Yes. But they have the chance to fix that in the new edition.
Things that somehow did not go into legacy: - wardrake - Gundabad Catapult Troll - wose /druadan forst people - some of the Shire hobbit heros - Gondor Bolt thrower - Baliman and the Gate keeper (iconic but don't really have any purpose in this game)
Although the FW named captain is surprising, at least to me, it's not the end of the world. Still can use them as regular captains. I'm happy though they removed the named Nazguls. Always felt it was a bit tacky to go away from the nameless menage that they are.
Much more than I was expecting but nothing that totally breaks my heart. I'm not really crafty enough to kitbash so I really don't mind the "gear they didn't use is going away" part.
I feel balin is phased out as he has a movie version and the named nazgul have the nagul of Dol-Guldur (just like they phased out the old Radagast when the Hobbit one was released). Considering there are glimpses of Mumakil in the War of the Rohirim trailer, and that the Rohirim have story of war againts the East and South, There's hope that there will be new models for these armies. To a certain extent Rohan also have histroy with the Dwarves after the slaying of Scatha, so maybe there will be new material there too (but that's a bit more far fetched)
The Balin king of Moria one makes no sense to me. He’s the leader of that faction, and allows players to create their own battles in Moria. Also I don’t collect them but Kharne being eradicated makes me feel a bit sad Another one is Khamul the Easterlinf is a Tolkien character, second only to the witch king as leader of the ringwraiths
Saying it's a good thing that models are being assigned to Legacies because of their _current profiles_ (e.g. Black Shield Shamans)... huh? But, it's a new edition? The profiles will change...
exactly i keep saying that to people who are like "calm down guys i bet they replace all the lagacy models with new plastic models"... im like then why even put the profiles in legacy then, surely if they intend to do that they could keep the profiles legal and just phase out the old models for new. GW fans are alot like Bethesda fans the company could drop turd on them and they would try to defend the company for doing it.
Seeing some of the smaller point value moria heroes go into legacy is slightly worrying as they are a hoard army and now will be led by more monster models with higher point values, thus reducing the nimber of units per list
I guess you don't play Isengard or Rohan much as they have been gutted, for what the new war of Rohirrim line? Now we will just hope there's something in the new list for classic Isengard and Rohan...lol😢😮
The thing I am the most curious about is that the Rivendell models were listed under "Elven Kingdoms" and no mention made of Lothlorien. I wonder if those two factions are getting combined.
The legacies decision really pisses me off! As a long-time player and collector I have spent a LOT of money on MESBG figures and books, and I am now being told they are no longer official. That's not to say that some profiles are not problematic, but those should never have been introduced in the first place rather than used to sell figures and books, only then ditched later. And there’s the work I have put in to customising the figures since I am a proponent of WYSIWYG for figures in games, which cannot be said for Games Workshop. What stinks most of all is that yesterday I finally finished my long delayed project of producing a mounted version of Grima - what a bummer! This just cements my disdain for GW.
Personally I'm most disappointed with the "we never bothered to make the mini" argument, I get that we don't see elendil and GilGalad on horse in the movies... But they are just so cool and dramatic looking on horses.
Tha ks for positivity. Wish FW would give us more info about the future of the game. It would stop the negative speculation, MESBG is always so secretive about what is coming out and when.
seriously sad that merchant guard got the boot. they're such cool looking models... I wonder what they'll do to make serpent horde a complete army now though id imagine they're getting combined with other armies to make a complete list, so im pretty curious where that goes
Niche is a relative term when you consider the overall state of MESBG. I wouldn't say these changes are positive in the slightest - veterans are upset about their favourite characters/units/armies being made redundant and new players have had their enthusiasm to start collecting drained out of them. I REALLY REALLY hope GW knows what its doing with these changes, hinging your bets on an anime movie and whatever else comes out - especially given how badly Rings of Power was received - is a BIG risk. It also says that GW has run out of ideas on where to take the game in terms on brand new models and is relying on film makers to do all the work. They need to expand the scope of the game and partner with videogame creators (make models for Lord of the Rings Online characters, Shadow of War, etc) - that WILL sell models by the bulk.
Just so you know, I use to buy lotr warhammer magazine when I was younger. Not played warhammer in around 20 years, due to a few of your videos I am going to start again
Everyone keeps saying the names ringwraiths were removed and that is incorrect. They are still in the game under the Hobbit profile. These models are resin and not metal and I expect, to be a mix of the old and new hobbit era models. But khamul is still there.
I come from 40k, whfb and so on, this isn't new. It's a bummer, but they are likely trying to organize things, look at space marines or storm casts for oversized ranges. I do hope we see some more plastics to replace some of finecast versions. The ring wraiths being the big ones for me.
Jacob this is one of the most balanced analysis of the latest news. Thank you! So many people are writing angry messages when we don't know everything yet. Of course there are some surprises to this list but you are spot on, you can still play legacy models with the Legacy supplement that's expected and overall I'm excited about changing things up, new rules, new armies but much if the same game mechanics.
You can still play legacy models only if you already have them: you cannot build legacy armies since all these models are gone! I was planning a Khand army but I cannot do this anymore, thanks to GW.
Wow, I’m really surprised about the King's Champion! Khazad-dûm is my favorite faction, and I’ve won local tournaments with it. In my opinion, the King's Champion is the key unit for this faction, so it's super odd
GW should have paid more attention to addressing changes to Factions and not just changes to The Model Range. I know the company just wants to sell MODELS, but most people collect ARMIES as a package deal - We need to see how they work together before investing time and money into an army. GW could have done something like a high-level faction preview and say "old heroes will be retired, but we've got new leaders on the way and here's how the army will play." Like, it's totally reasonable for Khazad-dum/Dwarven Holds players to see the removal of key heroes like Balin and the King's Champion and panic. The heroes give so much character and flavor to your armies in this game. Right now, based everything we know, the Khazad-dum faction looks like it will be weak and bland, with two choices for leaders - either Durin or just generic Kings/Captains. Maybe GW will add variety and flexibility back in, but there's no reason to trust GW to do that - the game already has a lot of extremely inflexible factions that basically choose your hero and troops for you (Army of the Dead, Ruffians, Corsairs, Bears, fuckin' Woses ... )
I definitely expected more metals to go away, but I guess that means theres a higher chance of the ones staying to get moved to plastic/resin wich would be sweet.
I hope that the man at arms profile is at least replaced in some capacity.... that's like removing minis tirith warriors from Gondor. It just seems odd to to remove the main line infantry unit of a faction only without intending to at least put something in its place
So are Rivendell now unplayable due to the lack of shields and spears in their kit?? Said this to the noobs boys but the biggest take away from this is how will the factions play. Harad without that variety just makes it a mummak army. Khazad without the king's champ makes it more vault wardens and durin. I do hope GW returns this gut punch with some insight and examples of how the new list building will look like? The biggest tell will be what the first supplement will be after WOTR.
@ConquestCreations definitely, but the swords don't come with shields now so if GW are taking the change literally then Rivendell swordsmen can't take shields? Or is the expectation to buy 20 spear kits
@@Chickenchicken46 My presumption is that the Rivendell warrior will have the same options. Spear, Shield, bow, or banner. The Rivendell spearman wont be a separate profile. To get shields on Rivendell your only option was the spearmen kit or convert them so it seems the same.
Some things were surprising. Others were less so. Overall, not too bad. There are a lot of wonderful miniatures to play with still! My heart does go out to those who had evil men armies.
They actually gutted both my Gondor list and the Kingdom of Moria list i just bought and was painting so that's great. I've also been playing with Murin and Drar since I was a kid they are my favourite models and losing them sucks hard. Overall very sad with this announcement.
I love this channel, but i have to disagree with nerfing the heroes on horses. A lot of games I've seen, they have mixed results. They are heroes for a reason.
Look, I'm sad that stuff is going, but I can't really say I'm mad. Out of the whole list I think I've only played with Muzgur, Kardush, and some of the named wraiths. And that was with proxies or TTS, I never bought them. Definitely a mix of reasons for stuff going. Men at Arms are surely because its a physical product they are embarrassed to sell (horrible bendy pikes). Some will certainly just be because they dont make enough money and this is a chance to cut things (Erkenbrand maybe?) I'm also very happy about cutting horses for horseless models.
I'm really curious what they're planning with spiders. The queen is lost so we don't have champions in army list and also the only connection with Moria now is durzhag. (He was somewhere in book or film, I think no, but maybe I'm wrong?)
Not a great time getting into the hobby as a beginner! I started with the battle hosts a few weeks back and was looking ahead to christmas. I earmarked khazad dum as my next army but everything i was interested in is now gone. I ordered two wraiths for Angmar and theyve gone before theyve arrived. My boys (12 and 9) have just written out christmas lists and my eldest was looking at all the dunelding stuff to expand his isengard army but thats all now gone. I get that for longer term and hardcore players these are needed/makes sense changes. But i'm now thinking do I bother touching anything in the next 6 months or not?
@@kentonbiffert2802 Super shame, i love the way khazad dum looked and felt. Unless CC is right and theyre getting an update I doubt i'll think about them again.
I can't believe Tom Bombadil survived the cuts.
He's omnipotent in every dimension.
My guess is that they will be coming out with a new quest of the ringbearer book
Hahaha, gildor removed but Tom bombadil stays
Tom was here before the first edition; Tom remembers the first FAQ and Supplement. He read the magazines with the big people, and watched the little people enter the hobby. He was here before the weapon strikes, legendary legions and this new edition.
GW can't cut him.
Or because his in Rings of Power, clue that they may be doing RoP stuff…
"Minas Tirith Commanders (without the Knight of the White Tower)" .... (but the price will stay the same~GW)
I don't know why you (and some others) are so keen on the game narrowing its focus to what we see in the movies, even down to wargear. This take is so bizarre to me. I get why GW is doing it (licensing, model representation), but I do not get why people like or defend this decision. Exploring the off-screen world of Middle Earth has drawn so many people to this game -- to essentially celebrate everyone mostly smashing big heroes from the films into each other in the new edition really kills me.
Exactly this. Im a massive book fan im honestly not keen on the movies. i liked the idea as a lotr fan of having what if scenarios etc. i dont want to just recreate scenes over and over again. they basically turned Matched play into narrative play. i mean i thought the whole point of the two was so people could do either, now we are essentially forced into one
@@TuorTheBlessedOfUlmo "i don't want to just recreate scenes over and over again." I couldn't agree more. I'd say it's because of licensing but they kept a bunch of GW-invented models with no apparent rhyme or reason and cut actual models from the books (and even movies in a few cases!). I thought Defense of the North and Rise of Angmar were _awesome_ supplements because it was filling out the game's universe, and they've essentially backpedaled on all of that. GAHH.
@@TJ-zs3vx i dont think game balance etc. should be effected by what minis are selling. lol look at Iron hills and tell me thats perfectly balanced... it was clearly made OP at the time to increase sales for the minis. alot of other game systems dont do it, it'd be nice if GW didnt but it is what it is unfortunately
Middle Earth is so bloated with factions, and it's mostly GW inventions that are being scrapped, I'd much rather actually get lore faithful units than bloated GW minis. I think a lot of the actual lore friendly minis, like Khamul and Balin, getting scrapped will probably get a redo in the future. That means you'll probably be able to play your legacy minis anyway, or at least have the opportunity to kitbash them.
The war in the north stuff was all a surprise. Though their line of “if it isn’t in the films then we cut it” doesn’t mesh with the Easterlings characters surviving.
The named Nazgûl being dropped was a massive shame.
@@dalorasinum386 their rationale doesn’t hold any water when you go through the list. Definitely a misrepresentation of their actual reasons.
Yeah I don't think anyone cares for getting rid of named nazgul. Especially when they kept some of the random unnamed "kings of" models...
Cutting Tolkien characters like Erestor and Gildor, when all the stuff GW created for the Easterlings has made it through, is a big surprise. Erkenbrand and Grimbold getting the chop, when Elfhelm survives, is also a shock - you’d think either all three or none of them would go.
Easterlings are probably some of the best selling minis in the MESBG range so they got a pass....for now
@ it is wild though, that Easterlings have a full range, when they’re in the movies for about two minutes marching through the Black Gate, and are never seen fighting. You’d think GW would absolutely slice through most of the range, but it makes sense since they’re fairly popular.
The Kings champion was such a center piece for all Khazad-dum and Kingdom of Moria players. The army is going to need a buff to stay competitive. I took him in a 1000pt Khazad dum list for a tournament and he was amazing.
@@purerel it already needed a buff WITH the Kings champion.
Wait, do the channels not know the Khamul is canon and part of the main story? Khamul is actually the only named wraith (by Tolkien) in the lore! He should have stayed for sure. Sad!
As a new player, I'm so sad about the removal of the named ringwraiths and the purge of the fallen realms. Now :
- far harad and khand are impossible to buy.
- corsairs only have delgamar and the corsair warriors, since arbalesters, dalamyr, the hasharin and the black numenoreans aren't even on the website anymore.
- serpent horde is reduced to Suladan, regular heroes, warriors, cavalry and serpent guard which isnt that different in terms of gameplay (+ the mumak).
- only the Easterlings are unscathed even though basically everything is a games workshop invention.
Those were my favourite armies and now I'll have to either accept that loss or find proxies/secondhand minis. The loss of Dunland which i found so cool is also a pain:((
I was impress that they kept the Dragon, Drake, Gulavar, Tom Bombadil.
absolutely. Losing the Watcher in the water but keeping Gulavar is a strange choice.
Surprised about Balin dwarf king of Moria getting cut from Khazad-dum.
Also Erestor just got rereleased and now he’s relegated to legacies.
Gildor inglorion being removed is a surprise and that also takes the lothlorien elves he can take for Rivendell
Khazad-dum in general was gutted :/
Most surprising is to me the cut of the Kingdom of Khazad-Dum range. Yes Durin and his kingdom remain, but I really hope they get a big glow up. They need it and lost some cool models especially in their Kingdom of Moria variant.
I like the idea of cutting some of the older and less used models and am fine with most of the decisions. But there are some models I really liked to play with and think they were fitting well into their armies. Mostly Erestor, Men at arms of Dol Amroth and Abrakhan Merchant Guard.
And I'm sad to see the named ringwraiths go, I really liked the idea of them. Not so much of all nine in Mordor, more that Harad, Corsairs and Easterlings each had one thematic ringwraith in their list and Angmar having multiple options for larger points games.
I am floored that you are just fine with this
They took models out that are in the books and kept stuff that they made themselves.
there is no logical consistency besides maybe phasing out metal models
where is the road map or some examples to show what these new lists are going to look like?
He likely gets products from gw , so if critical that would end completely.
@@oneeyedwonderer6781 No he doesnt.
This was a lot more of a heavy handed purge than I expected tbh. Hopefully the legacy rules aren't total ass and the models still see a lot of play in tournaments.
I don’t see enough people talking about the changes to the Haradrim. Your infantry line is now, more or less, the same spearman over and over and over. I guess I’ll be more inclined to bring Serpent Guard now, but I’m gonna be really missing my chunky burly boys when the battle lines clash
I think my playing group will be sticking to the current edition given that all our armies have been gutted
Same.
If that’s all your armies gutted then I’m afraid that’s on you for collecting such niche models 😂
@@Jarlballin123 and up yours
@@Jarlballin123Some people do enjoy collecting and playing lesser-played factions. I have been lucky that Arnor has had recent attention, otherwise that would’ve been a big hit.
@@Jarlballin123wish your mum swallowed you
Easterling chads we eating good
Angbros stay winning too
@@GeoffreyBronson Except for Khamul...
I'm super relieved that gulavar and burdur survived. Although it would be kind of odd if they took them out with the latest supplement being released.
In September of 2022, I was getting into the game, and my focus was on Fangorn. I made a few posts around the internet pointing out that Quickbeam was actually Birchseed! I was so glad to see they saw it and fixed it in this edition, and I really hope we see other named ent profiles moving forward!
Definitely more is lost than I thought. I am most sad to see the expanded Harad range like abrakahn and karna disappear. They really did add flavour to Harad and helped flesh out this mysterious southern land. The reavers saddens me also, but as you said, it was expected.
I was preparing an Eorl and Cirion Gondor-Rohan Army so I'm sad about them going to Legacies, although I'm glad the King of Men stays in the game.
I think the most bothersome thing about all this is that the criteria is not consistent nor clear enough. Things that appear in the books and movies is going away, and some GW inventions are staying. Things that were selling are being axed and things that arent very popular (woses) are staying. There's a bit about "some miniatures being rolled into other profiles" that wasnt explained and sounds interesting. Maybe that's one way to see some of the dissapearing profile's minis being used.
I think they have listed the new "macro facions" from which the new LL-style lists will be drawn in this article. So Fallen Realms will most likely contain Harad and Rhun (hopefully a new khand in the future?) Elven Kingdoms will contain Lindon/Rivendell, Lorien and Mirkwood, etc. I look forward to see what lists come out of them, specially "Kingdoms of Men", which I suppose will contain Arnor and the Dúnedain
When I was young I made my own rino using a plastic toy and popsicle sticks, held together by string, safe to say it only fit 3 orcs or 4 goblins but I miss those times
To be completely honest the only one that really really bums me out is the Great Beast of Gorgoroth, I was waiting for it to come back to the store for me to grab it, I love monster models. One that is a bit of a shame is completely removing Wormtongue on Horse - I bought an extra model of him to make the conversion...oh well. I was expecting worse to be fair.
As someone who doesn't really play the game anymore and just enjoys the battle reports, I have to say that I'm really surprised to see so many profiles that are recent and fairly played being moved to legacies
THANK YOU!! It was quite frustrating watching entire 30 mins videos on this issue, where the question "what is Legacies?" wasn't answered at all. Instead we got a bunch of doom and gloom, and someone who maybe wasn't quite as familiar with the topic, was very likely leaving the video thinking that the second the new edition releases, those models would be completely unplayable.
Nice to have someone give a more tempered perspective, couched with actual facts of what was published, rather than speculation presented as fact.
I think you should take what he says with a grain of salt most likel legacy will be treated like they do not exist..its like that for the other game systems
You can also spend 10 minutes to read 2 articles.
@@morgoth435 I wonder where I said people shouldn't read the articles?
If you make a 30 min video about a topic, and people can come out of it with wrong information about the topic, there's something wrong with the video. You can't just assume everyone is up to date with the articles.
Feels completely random what did and did not make it into legends
@18:06 i was thinking maybe they want a legion with Balin from the Erebor/thorin company list going to khazad dum either with khazad warriors or more sensibly erebor warriors
Thanks for the comment, I reckon this is a great call!
Siege Weapons still in the game is crazy, losing great beast is super sad.
GW: "I will destroy the game!" We:"Shut up and take my money!"
I would like to support the channel with a comb.
Facts.... dafuq was he doing... just waking up and makin video without even brushing his damn hair!
It was more than I expected, but I'm just happy Ruffians didn't lose anything
Honestly, i cant believe they decided to cut some "relatively" new models out.
I hope this mean they want to take a fresh start with balance and factions and not just a copyright issue
I honestly thought the list would be WAY larger than it ended up being, just a full cull of anything not in the movies. Still a shame to lose a lot of those models, especially considering how...random some of the picks are. Easterlings being the obvious pick, with the only named character they're losing being the only one that's actually in the books.
Overall it just seems like for the factions that are large enough to keep around (RIP Khand and Far Harad) the stuff they're getting rid of is Finecast, which is pretty positive I suppose.
As for actual impact we simply don't know until we know what the profiles and lists look like, what new stuff is coming and what GW's plans are. If MESBG won't enter the 3-year edition cycle with big updates like GW's other games I don't really see the issue with Legacy considering all of these models will continue to be playable in like 99% of games I play (though availability still sucks obviously; GW's Twitter account mentioned MtO's for some of these models may still be on the table but it still seems unlikely).
R.I.P. my beloved Khandish Chariots, they'll see one last glorious outing before they become legacies. Luckily the IHL💚🤍🧡 will be allowing legacies at tournaments so I'll still have the option to bring Khand in the future hopefully 🤞
Already have it on good authority they will 🤫🇮🇪
I have been playing the game for around two years now and have owned an army for one. minas tirith is my main army so Im glad to see none of my models are affected by legacies. Great video, I loved your input
Really bummed about Mordor. I had all named Ringwraiths, great beast of Gorgoroth and all the recent orc heroes (just finished painting zagdush and really enjoyed his rules).
I am heading to a tournament this weekend with Kardush, Zagdush, and a Great Beast! Its sad but I am glad to be giving them one more competitive run!
@@ConquestCreations I had a list planned with simular heroes, I literally finished painting Zagdush the day before the anouncement. Good luck with the tournament though!
GW is trying to GW my MESBG.
Really sad about the named ringwraiths. I know they're GW invention (but Khamul!), but it was really cool lore addition and game variety, the usual nazgul is good but I liked to have some other options
I'll stay with the old edition, it doesnt need a new rule set
I'm torn, I think some of the expanded fallen kingdoms and other GW developed characters were some of the best models, most creative, and inspired me the most. But I get their point for streamlining the line, and potentially making SKU room for new developments in the future.
I am not going to pick up the new rules. I am going to stick with the current rules and enjoy the armies I have now. If there will be any tournaments using current rules (which will then be "legacy"/old rules), I am happy to come and enjoy some games (and probably lose hard). I have also been waiting for Sons of Eorl coming back in rotation, but can forget about that. Will be looking at recasters or 3D printing for that one and others.
Not going to hate on GW or people who do pick up the new rules, this is just a crossroads where everybody makes a choice. It isn't the first game that is hit like this and definitely won't be the last. Made the same choice for Flames of War (v3 v4).
I recently started getting into Lotr tabletop thanks to your channel! Im hoping that these models being removed are being replaced by something better. Otherwise theres always 3D prints.
Use the prints my friend. I do alongside official minis and they rule.
@kelvingriffiths6017 That might be an option at this point
I will never play at a tournament that doesn't allow legacies. We all need to set the standard for the community right from the start!!
Trouble is how would they fit into lists in this new LL direction? Plus, you can bet the profiles will mostly be bad since GW will not want to incentivise collection of them via the second hand market
@yaketysaks they're still going to have pure factions but the only way we'll get alliances is with LLs. And if the profiles are bad, then they shouldn't affect the top tables at tournaments anyways, so why not permit them?
Obviously really sad to see some models go oop. I was surprised that the ranger heros went.
Biggest loss for me is the variety in the serpent horde list. Seems hard to play harad without a mumak now, which is a shame.
On that note, other than the ones you mention, I'm probably moat surprised that the hasharin survived!
Hey, so I've just bought the battle of osgiliath which is a Christmas present... Will the rules in this set be redundant now, should I have waited (tho I didn't know about this set at the time) for the new set coming out? 🤔
Saying that Aol is not thematic is wild. It is a wild mix of Orcs, Goblins, wargs and spiders. Like all the evil spwan in one Army. That is so cool. I played a bit because of that and not because it is strong
Gutted mahud are going as half trolls are fantastic and my body type represented in the merchant guard, black guard I've just got into using as proxies but loved them.
I too liked the niche gondor models, and my dol amroth pike block that Could get to fight 6
Warg marauder and dweller in the dark I loved for moria
Dont think I ever had a bad game with Erkenbrand either
But as you said we can still use them
Im waiting to get into this game and Wargamming in general until this new edition but what drew me to this game was the rules, price, and the depth of minitures represented in all corners of the lore.
Hopefully they just plan to rerelease them with new cards
Going to be holding my breath on this one, and waiting to see what they come out with that's new in the next few months. I think they will need more than just the 12-15 or so new profiles from the WotR anime film to justify all of the cuts we're getting here. My biggest concern moving forward is, what does this mean for the potential of future supplements if GW is no longer allowed to make up characters? Sounds like a much more limited scope for future products to me... Especially as an evil player, where there's far less named characters to adapt. Variety & list building was my favourite aspect of this game. Personal RIPs: Vrasku & Mauhur, Thryden, King's Champion, & all the new FW resin kits being removed way too soon for no good reason, while plenty of citadel not-so-finecast & 23 year old sculpts remain. 😢
I'm most sad about the named wraiths! I'm glad I picked up the Angmar ones with the recent run.
Celebrating Assault on Lothlorien likely being gone is so messed up. Wasn't thematic? It's based on a scene in the appendices. It was unique and fun. Was it overtuned? Yes. But they have the chance to fix that in the new edition.
Things that somehow did not go into legacy:
- wardrake
- Gundabad Catapult Troll
- wose /druadan forst people
- some of the Shire hobbit heros
- Gondor Bolt thrower
- Baliman and the Gate keeper (iconic but don't really have any purpose in this game)
Although the FW named captain is surprising, at least to me, it's not the end of the world. Still can use them as regular captains.
I'm happy though they removed the named Nazguls. Always felt it was a bit tacky to go away from the nameless menage that they are.
Wild question, with the shift to the new edition will there be new scenario books or new editions of the books like Quest for the Ring Bearer?
Much more than I was expecting but nothing that totally breaks my heart. I'm not really crafty enough to kitbash so I really don't mind the "gear they didn't use is going away" part.
98 profiles is insane 😅😅😅
I feel balin is phased out as he has a movie version and the named nazgul have the nagul of Dol-Guldur (just like they phased out the old Radagast when the Hobbit one was released). Considering there are glimpses of Mumakil in the War of the Rohirim trailer, and that the Rohirim have story of war againts the East and South, There's hope that there will be new models for these armies. To a certain extent Rohan also have histroy with the Dwarves after the slaying of Scatha, so maybe there will be new material there too (but that's a bit more far fetched)
The Balin king of Moria one makes no sense to me. He’s the leader of that faction, and allows players to create their own battles in Moria.
Also I don’t collect them but Kharne being eradicated makes me feel a bit sad
Another one is Khamul the Easterlinf is a Tolkien character, second only to the witch king as leader of the ringwraiths
Orc Tracker is mentioned one of the books and GW made a miniature,
Saying it's a good thing that models are being assigned to Legacies because of their _current profiles_ (e.g. Black Shield Shamans)... huh? But, it's a new edition? The profiles will change...
exactly i keep saying that to people who are like "calm down guys i bet they replace all the lagacy models with new plastic models"... im like then why even put the profiles in legacy then, surely if they intend to do that they could keep the profiles legal and just phase out the old models for new. GW fans are alot like Bethesda fans the company could drop turd on them and they would try to defend the company for doing it.
Seeing some of the smaller point value moria heroes go into legacy is slightly worrying as they are a hoard army and now will be led by more monster models with higher point values, thus reducing the nimber of units per list
I guess you don't play Isengard or Rohan much as they have been gutted, for what the new war of Rohirrim line? Now we will just hope there's something in the new list for classic Isengard and Rohan...lol😢😮
The dunland being removed is just because the new movie is basically based on that, so it would create a double profile situation
The thing I am the most curious about is that the Rivendell models were listed under "Elven Kingdoms" and no mention made of Lothlorien. I wonder if those two factions are getting combined.
I guess this makes my decision for me whether to build my new mumak into a mahud or serpant horde list... though I was leaning serpant horde anyway...
I’m with you! Should be good getting a new edition and I’ll play these old models still, seeing as we don’t have GW tournaments in NZ
I still believe they just forgot to post the easterling section... I mean.... RHUNISH WARDRAKE? HELLO?
The legacies decision really pisses me off! As a long-time player and collector I have spent a LOT of money on MESBG figures and books, and I am now being told they are no longer official. That's not to say that some profiles are not problematic, but those should never have been introduced in the first place rather than used to sell figures and books, only then ditched later. And there’s the work I have put in to customising the figures since I am a proponent of WYSIWYG for figures in games, which cannot be said for Games Workshop. What stinks most of all is that yesterday I finally finished my long delayed project of producing a mounted version of Grima - what a bummer! This just cements my disdain for GW.
Does this change the top 5 army for beginner video?
Personally I'm most disappointed with the "we never bothered to make the mini" argument, I get that we don't see elendil and GilGalad on horse in the movies... But they are just so cool and dramatic looking on horses.
Tha ks for positivity. Wish FW would give us more info about the future of the game. It would stop the negative speculation, MESBG is always so secretive about what is coming out and when.
seriously sad that merchant guard got the boot. they're such cool looking models... I wonder what they'll do to make serpent horde a complete army now though id imagine they're getting combined with other armies to make a complete list, so im pretty curious where that goes
What doesn't make any sense is that they're getting rid of stuff that wasn't in the movies and the books yet they just created Carn Dum.
Mauhur and Vrasku beeing removed sours Scout Isengard lists... I rly enjoyed them.
Niche is a relative term when you consider the overall state of MESBG. I wouldn't say these changes are positive in the slightest - veterans are upset about their favourite characters/units/armies being made redundant and new players have had their enthusiasm to start collecting drained out of them.
I REALLY REALLY hope GW knows what its doing with these changes, hinging your bets on an anime movie and whatever else comes out - especially given how badly Rings of Power was received - is a BIG risk. It also says that GW has run out of ideas on where to take the game in terms on brand new models and is relying on film makers to do all the work.
They need to expand the scope of the game and partner with videogame creators (make models for Lord of the Rings Online characters, Shadow of War, etc) - that WILL sell models by the bulk.
Just so you know, I use to buy lotr warhammer magazine when I was younger. Not played warhammer in around 20 years, due to a few of your videos I am going to start again
As a Moria and dunland player I’m crying
Thanks for making this vid.
They did the same to 40k and AOS so no surprise; not sure if my group will bother switching over
I don’t want them to nerf horses to much! As a Rohan player I kind of depend on my horses!!!
I personally loved everything that was cut, but changes were to be expected.
The problem with Middle Earth moving units to legacies is that the entire game may as well have been in legacies for a couple of decades
Everyone keeps saying the names ringwraiths were removed and that is incorrect. They are still in the game under the Hobbit profile. These models are resin and not metal and I expect, to be a mix of the old and new hobbit era models. But khamul is still there.
I feared that fiefdoms were going to get dropped wholesale. For some reason they only hit some characters and the man at arms I am currently painting.
Knight of the White Tower was my favorite Gondor Hero.
I come from 40k, whfb and so on, this isn't new. It's a bummer, but they are likely trying to organize things, look at space marines or storm casts for oversized ranges. I do hope we see some more plastics to replace some of finecast versions. The ring wraiths being the big ones for me.
Jacob this is one of the most balanced analysis of the latest news. Thank you! So many people are writing angry messages when we don't know everything yet. Of course there are some surprises to this list but you are spot on, you can still play legacy models with the Legacy supplement that's expected and overall I'm excited about changing things up, new rules, new armies but much if the same game mechanics.
You can still play legacy models only if you already have them: you cannot build legacy armies since all these models are gone! I was planning a Khand army but I cannot do this anymore, thanks to GW.
Wow, I’m really surprised about the King's Champion! Khazad-dûm is my favorite faction, and I’ve won local tournaments with it. In my opinion, the King's Champion is the key unit for this faction, so it's super odd
GW should have paid more attention to addressing changes to Factions and not just changes to The Model Range. I know the company just wants to sell MODELS, but most people collect ARMIES as a package deal - We need to see how they work together before investing time and money into an army.
GW could have done something like a high-level faction preview and say "old heroes will be retired, but we've got new leaders on the way and here's how the army will play."
Like, it's totally reasonable for Khazad-dum/Dwarven Holds players to see the removal of key heroes like Balin and the King's Champion and panic. The heroes give so much character and flavor to your armies in this game. Right now, based everything we know, the Khazad-dum faction looks like it will be weak and bland, with two choices for leaders - either Durin or just generic Kings/Captains.
Maybe GW will add variety and flexibility back in, but there's no reason to trust GW to do that - the game already has a lot of extremely inflexible factions that basically choose your hero and troops for you (Army of the Dead, Ruffians, Corsairs, Bears, fuckin' Woses ... )
This announcement did get me to buy the great beast before it was too late.
I definitely expected more metals to go away, but I guess that means theres a higher chance of the ones staying to get moved to plastic/resin wich would be sweet.
I hope that the man at arms profile is at least replaced in some capacity.... that's like removing minis tirith warriors from Gondor. It just seems odd to to remove the main line infantry unit of a faction only without intending to at least put something in its place
I wish you had included pictures of the miniatures in question i was too lazy to look for them while reading the article^^
So are Rivendell now unplayable due to the lack of shields and spears in their kit??
Said this to the noobs boys but the biggest take away from this is how will the factions play. Harad without that variety just makes it a mummak army. Khazad without the king's champ makes it more vault wardens and durin. I do hope GW returns this gut punch with some insight and examples of how the new list building will look like?
The biggest tell will be what the first supplement will be after WOTR.
There is a Rivendell Spearmen kit that is still available so they have been unchanged.
@ConquestCreations definitely, but the swords don't come with shields now so if GW are taking the change literally then Rivendell swordsmen can't take shields? Or is the expectation to buy 20 spear kits
@@Chickenchicken46 My presumption is that the Rivendell warrior will have the same options. Spear, Shield, bow, or banner. The Rivendell spearman wont be a separate profile.
To get shields on Rivendell your only option was the spearmen kit or convert them so it seems the same.
Some things were surprising. Others were less so. Overall, not too bad. There are a lot of wonderful miniatures to play with still! My heart does go out to those who had evil men armies.
They actually gutted both my Gondor list and the Kingdom of Moria list i just bought and was painting so that's great. I've also been playing with Murin and Drar since I was a kid they are my favourite models and losing them sucks hard. Overall very sad with this announcement.
I love this channel, but i have to disagree with nerfing the heroes on horses. A lot of games I've seen, they have mixed results. They are heroes for a reason.
Look, I'm sad that stuff is going, but I can't really say I'm mad. Out of the whole list I think I've only played with Muzgur, Kardush, and some of the named wraiths. And that was with proxies or TTS, I never bought them.
Definitely a mix of reasons for stuff going. Men at Arms are surely because its a physical product they are embarrassed to sell (horrible bendy pikes). Some will certainly just be because they dont make enough money and this is a chance to cut things (Erkenbrand maybe?)
I'm also very happy about cutting horses for horseless models.
I'm really curious what they're planning with spiders. The queen is lost so we don't have champions in army list and also the only connection with Moria now is durzhag. (He was somewhere in book or film, I think no, but maybe I'm wrong?)
Not a great time getting into the hobby as a beginner! I started with the battle hosts a few weeks back and was looking ahead to christmas. I earmarked khazad dum as my next army but everything i was interested in is now gone. I ordered two wraiths for Angmar and theyve gone before theyve arrived. My boys (12 and 9) have just written out christmas lists and my eldest was looking at all the dunelding stuff to expand his isengard army but thats all now gone. I get that for longer term and hardcore players these are needed/makes sense changes. But i'm now thinking do I bother touching anything in the next 6 months or not?
Dunlendings will come back with a brand new Army.
ouch ya i get the same feeling.
@@sulinash3554 yeah thats what i've assumed and told my eldest to hang on and wait.
@@kentonbiffert2802 Super shame, i love the way khazad dum looked and felt. Unless CC is right and theyre getting an update I doubt i'll think about them again.
So I’m confirming the mumakil still available? Been practicing my painting to get ready for it
The Mumak is completely untouched by any of this news so paint away!
@ just have to try and get one in Australia 😂