Finchinator is so organized with their thoughts. I feel like if I were to answer i would just stumble on my words. Finch really has thought about it to such a degree where it's clear and logical what would be considered overcentralizing
@@martydahley1821 using heavy boots means you cant use other better items like life orb, leftover, or any of the choice items. Stealth rocks literally invalidates entire pokemon (any 4x weakness pokemon better have a rapid spinner or they are getting kicked off the team). Stealth rocks has defined what can and can't be played since it's inception. The fact that heavy boots had to be created is a testament of how stealth rocks has made entire swaths of pokemon unplayable.
Stealth Rocks are pretty much a necessary evil in singles at this point. I don’t know if you ever played in gen 6, but Mega Sableye would shut down all entry hazards, which made stall OP as fuck, and games could last a few hundred turns more than with Stealth Rocks in play. It showed just how necessary rocks have become to a healthy metagame in modern Pokémon. If Stealth Rocks are a big enough issue for a team, there’s countless ways to deal with it in the current generation such as Rapid Spin or Defog. It’s not perfect, but it makes it tolerable.
@@GogiRegion The correct answer is to ban Mega Sableye too. If for example, Lando-T or Ninetales made Hyper Offense broken, then you ban them. The same logic applies to stall. If Mega Sableye makes Stall broken, then you ban the pokemon that makes stall broken.
Actually, as pointed out at the beginning, we recorded this a while ago, pre-DLC2 dropping. So you need to take most of the current-meta examples with a grain of salt and remember how things stood beforehand
My question is: I know that Smogon tries to make everything viable: But what if not everything _should_ be viable? The second that Stall becomes the dominant playstyle; the metagame is automatically unhealthy and the tier becomes objectively much less fun, versatile, and playable. Sometimes, when overcentralizing pokemon like Mega Sableye, Toxapex, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Corviknight, Skarmory, Celesteela, Chansey, Blissey, Mega Slowbro, Slowking-Galar, Tapu Fini, Amoongus, Alomomola, Gothitelle, Klefki, and Lando-T are broken it takes months for the the smogon “council” to finally deal with the threat. Of all playstyles; stall does not “need” to be viable. It truly is an interesting subject because Wallbreakers that aren’t checked effectively by fast offensive sweepers are super unhealthy but can still be fun. Yet walls that aren’t checked are somehow balanced.
The problem is that this opinion is completely subjective. I'm not a stall player myself, but there are people who enjoy stall as their playstyle when playing pokemon, and they enjoy it when stall thrives in a metagame. You can't say that the meta is unhealthy just because stall is thriving.
some yes some no, like lando t is a TERRIBLE example because it dies with ANY ice move, and is overcentralized as a useful utility mon for switching into and setting rocks
Your mention of dracovish's ability to spam fishous rend brings up something I've wondered about before: are wholesale bans always necessary, and should they be more of a last resort than they are currently? What would have happened if fishous rend was banned instead of dracovish entirely? Would it have been more fair to do that and see if it's still too dangerous a threat without its infamously spammable move? I'm recalling the fate of assist, a move that's generally pretty fringe, but really messed the meta when put on a prankster liepard whose teammate knew roar. It seemed a bit premature to wholesale ban assist when it appeared banning it alongside prankster would have stopped the specific strategy it was being used on that was causing so much trouble. Wouldn't making it illegal to put assist on a prankster pokémon have been enough? It seems that specific combination was the problem, not assist per se, so why outlaw any use of assist whatsoever? I guess my thoughts on bans are in a similar vein to my thoughts on locking entire moves/pokémon out of a generation as gen 8's done. To me, getting rid of anything entirely seems pretty harsh not to use as an absolute last resort and trying anything else before it (I always say it would have been better to create a counter for pursuit the same way heavy duty boots was created for stealth rock, rather than getting rid of it - assuming the decision was done with balance in mind, I've heard some voice other suspicions as to the reason).
@@gregoryford2532 "There’s also the simple fact that you could just play a different tier if the Pokémon you want to play is either too strong or too weak for OU." Not if your favourite pokémon is reshiram. Or countless other pokémon sequestered to borderline status by being illegal to play in one tier, but not strong enough for another tier. I did watch and comment on the video about complex bans and found it hard to be convinced by the argument due to the fact that simplicity in competitive Pokémon seems like a lost cause anyway. Another thing I forgot to mention in my comment on there is that there are plenty of illegal movesets already (i. e. sets with 2 egg moves) that Showdown (which is what most people play) already has to adjust for, so why not just add to the "no high-jump kick and sucker punch on the same cinderace because that's impossible in the game" error message there has to be on Showdown anyway with a "no fishious rend on dracovish because that's been deemed broken" error message if you try to do that? Basically, if the tiering system actually did work to allow players to "win with their favourites", it might be fine, but with this system leaving so many pokémon borderlined, many by virtue of one or a few possible sets being overpowered, I can't help but find it hard to agree with.
The cool thing about Latios is the Pokémon that it replaces. Once you have Latios on your team, most won’t run Starmie, Alakazam, Espeon, Gengar, or Raikou. Likewise, Latias will generally outclass and replace Cresselia, Uxie, Mespirit, Gardevoir, Delphox, and Necrozma.
i think megerna should be banned so broken can survive adamant earthquake from excadril that op I’m going to one hit ko this thing no 2 hit ko this thing
I personally believe that Deoxys Defense should be suspect tested because it is weaker than Mew is. Deoxys-Speed may be relevant for a Suspect test. Pheromosa is very similar to Protean Greninja, Ash-Greninja, Deoxys-Normal and Deoxys-Attack.
I still think Melmetal is the most broken thing in the game more than Zygarde, Lando-I or Urshifu. It ate a Life Orb Flare Blitz from Blaziken in one game and a Life Orbe Focus Blast from Lele in the next. And its Double Iron Bash is just a nook, you can't punish without a Rocky Helmet user. Not to mention when its on Trickroom teams.
@@francohurtado8172 I don't think you got the obvious sarcasm (I mean I put it in all caps and bolded it how could I make it any more obvious that I was being sarcastic; not exactly the sharpest are you mate) in my comment there mate.
@@nousername191 read the video title, then read my comment. Pretty straightforward. Im not explaining, if u missed the point, its been 4 months. Its okay to leave it at that
@@Law34prez Dynamax as a whole got banned so early (December 2019) that I still don't get what you mean by Mega Ray being not as game breaking as Dynamax on a November 2020 video. Was just trying to understand what you were saying but if you don't wanna talk about it, it's cool.
Finchinator is so organized with their thoughts. I feel like if I were to answer i would just stumble on my words. Finch really has thought about it to such a degree where it's clear and logical what would be considered overcentralizing
This is such an insanely underrated channel, love the content!!
I always thought that Gen 6 Soul Dew Latios and Latias were awesome. Lati@s was a great offensive answer to Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza.
Multiple creative counters is a really good take! Teams falling apart when the fringe counter really feels bad
Last time I was this early genesect was in ou
Well that wasn’t long ago lol - seems you’re early often
5 gen OU?
@@gopherlee9427 The last time genesect was in OU was not too long ago. It was banned on October 29th 2020.
Great video, really happy to see this channel growing!
This is a great video to quickly explain why Pokémon can be overwhelming to a meta game. Good job!
Love your content dude
Your outro is op
Nathan you need to do UU vids man, the tier is crazy at the moment.
I am loving UU right now. So much more fun than OU after spending a few days playing with the new toys.
This gen has been all over the place. Just a crazy meta
@@johnsans534 uu have a lot of good mons
great interview
Stealth Rocks is overcentralizing 😭😂
Baton Pass can be broken on certain teams
But it’s a move not a mon
And just because something is overcentralizing doesn’t mean that it’s toxic to the metagame
Heavy duty boots has entered the chat
@@martydahley1821 using heavy boots means you cant use other better items like life orb, leftover, or any of the choice items. Stealth rocks literally invalidates entire pokemon (any 4x weakness pokemon better have a rapid spinner or they are getting kicked off the team). Stealth rocks has defined what can and can't be played since it's inception. The fact that heavy boots had to be created is a testament of how stealth rocks has made entire swaths of pokemon unplayable.
Stealth Rocks are pretty much a necessary evil in singles at this point. I don’t know if you ever played in gen 6, but Mega Sableye would shut down all entry hazards, which made stall OP as fuck, and games could last a few hundred turns more than with Stealth Rocks in play. It showed just how necessary rocks have become to a healthy metagame in modern Pokémon. If Stealth Rocks are a big enough issue for a team, there’s countless ways to deal with it in the current generation such as Rapid Spin or Defog. It’s not perfect, but it makes it tolerable.
@@GogiRegion The correct answer is to ban Mega Sableye too. If for example, Lando-T or Ninetales made Hyper Offense broken, then you ban them. The same logic applies to stall. If Mega Sableye makes Stall broken, then you ban the pokemon that makes stall broken.
What a great video!
Hey could you analyse the case of Regieleki
Sorry for bad English
Keep up the good content!
Only mistake there was "Sorry for THE bad english." The rest is actually fine.
Buzzwole also checks Urshifu pretty well, Finch seems to ignore it 🤣
Actually, as pointed out at the beginning, we recorded this a while ago, pre-DLC2 dropping. So you need to take most of the current-meta examples with a grain of salt and remember how things stood beforehand
Finch ignores it?! Finch is literally the biggest advocate for Buzzwole lmao. Watch his recent videos, he reckons Buzzwole is top 15/10.
…guys on their way to forget about aerial ace
My question is: I know that Smogon tries to make everything viable: But what if not everything _should_ be viable? The second that Stall becomes the dominant playstyle; the metagame is automatically unhealthy and the tier becomes objectively much less fun, versatile, and playable.
Sometimes, when overcentralizing pokemon like Mega Sableye, Toxapex, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Corviknight, Skarmory, Celesteela, Chansey, Blissey, Mega Slowbro, Slowking-Galar, Tapu Fini, Amoongus, Alomomola, Gothitelle, Klefki, and Lando-T are broken it takes months for the the smogon “council” to finally deal with the threat. Of all playstyles; stall does not “need” to be viable. It truly is an interesting subject because Wallbreakers that aren’t checked effectively by fast offensive sweepers are super unhealthy but can still be fun. Yet walls that aren’t checked are somehow balanced.
The problem is that this opinion is completely subjective. I'm not a stall player myself, but there are people who enjoy stall as their playstyle when playing pokemon, and they enjoy it when stall thrives in a metagame. You can't say that the meta is unhealthy just because stall is thriving.
some yes some no, like lando t is a TERRIBLE example because it dies with ANY ice move, and is overcentralized as a useful utility mon for switching into and setting rocks
Your mention of dracovish's ability to spam fishous rend brings up something I've wondered about before: are wholesale bans always necessary, and should they be more of a last resort than they are currently? What would have happened if fishous rend was banned instead of dracovish entirely? Would it have been more fair to do that and see if it's still too dangerous a threat without its infamously spammable move?
I'm recalling the fate of assist, a move that's generally pretty fringe, but really messed the meta when put on a prankster liepard whose teammate knew roar. It seemed a bit premature to wholesale ban assist when it appeared banning it alongside prankster would have stopped the specific strategy it was being used on that was causing so much trouble. Wouldn't making it illegal to put assist on a prankster pokémon have been enough? It seems that specific combination was the problem, not assist per se, so why outlaw any use of assist whatsoever?
I guess my thoughts on bans are in a similar vein to my thoughts on locking entire moves/pokémon out of a generation as gen 8's done. To me, getting rid of anything entirely seems pretty harsh not to use as an absolute last resort and trying anything else before it (I always say it would have been better to create a counter for pursuit the same way heavy duty boots was created for stealth rock, rather than getting rid of it - assuming the decision was done with balance in mind, I've heard some voice other suspicions as to the reason).
@@gregoryford2532
"There’s also the simple fact that you could just play a different tier if the Pokémon you want to play is either too strong or too weak for OU."
Not if your favourite pokémon is reshiram. Or countless other pokémon sequestered to borderline status by being illegal to play in one tier, but not strong enough for another tier.
I did watch and comment on the video about complex bans and found it hard to be convinced by the argument due to the fact that simplicity in competitive Pokémon seems like a lost cause anyway. Another thing I forgot to mention in my comment on there is that there are plenty of illegal movesets already (i. e. sets with 2 egg moves) that Showdown (which is what most people play) already has to adjust for, so why not just add to the "no high-jump kick and sucker punch on the same cinderace because that's impossible in the game" error message there has to be on Showdown anyway with a "no fishious rend on dracovish because that's been deemed broken" error message if you try to do that?
Basically, if the tiering system actually did work to allow players to "win with their favourites", it might be fine, but with this system leaving so many pokémon borderlined, many by virtue of one or a few possible sets being overpowered, I can't help but find it hard to agree with.
fun fact, charizard wins against urshifu in a 1v1 (the dark type one)
Ursifu can be counted by lucky chant wonder room and magic room and disable just saying
How do those moves counter it ? They stop it from getting crits, but it's still really strong.
I wish there was talk on complex bans. But great vid
The cool thing about Latios is the Pokémon that it replaces. Once you have Latios on your team, most won’t run Starmie, Alakazam, Espeon, Gengar, or Raikou.
Likewise, Latias will generally outclass and replace Cresselia, Uxie, Mespirit, Gardevoir, Delphox, and Necrozma.
Please do uu vids man
still a good watch in 2025
Solid content
i think megerna should be banned so broken can survive adamant earthquake from excadril that op I’m going to one hit ko this thing no 2 hit ko this thing
Life orb is life saver
U brought the got
I personally believe that Deoxys Defense should be suspect tested because it is weaker than Mew is.
Deoxys-Speed may be relevant for a Suspect test. Pheromosa is very similar to Protean Greninja, Ash-Greninja, Deoxys-Normal and Deoxys-Attack.
Yep
I still think Melmetal is the most broken thing in the game more than Zygarde, Lando-I or Urshifu.
It ate a Life Orb Flare Blitz from Blaziken in one game and a Life Orbe Focus Blast from Lele in the next. And its Double Iron Bash is just a nook, you can't punish without a Rocky Helmet user.
Not to mention when its on Trickroom teams.
Melmetal is up there but Lando-I and Zygarde are the most broken imo.
Burn it
Soul Dew nerf was bullshit
Everyone forgets the best Urshifu S counter.
*CONKELDURR*
Conk gets destroyed by cb close combat, even max defense max hp takes more than half
@@francohurtado8172 I don't think you got the obvious sarcasm (I mean I put it in all caps and bolded it how could I make it any more obvious that I was being sarcastic; not exactly the sharpest are you mate) in my comment there mate.
@@3.2187_Kilometres oh sorry :(
@@francohurtado8172 It's fine mate.
Mach punch goes brrrrrr
Who's the one guy that disliked this
When it's convenient, apparently. Mega Rayquaza was never as game breaking as ANY dynamax pkmn now. It's simply not fun.
I don't understand what you're trying to say, Dynamax got banned pretty early in gen 8 OU.
@@nousername191 whole lotta context missed in 3 months. Go count something.
@@Law34prez Care to elaborate?
@@nousername191 read the video title, then read my comment. Pretty straightforward. Im not explaining, if u missed the point, its been 4 months. Its okay to leave it at that
@@Law34prez Dynamax as a whole got banned so early (December 2019) that I still don't get what you mean by Mega Ray being not as game breaking as Dynamax on a November 2020 video. Was just trying to understand what you were saying but if you don't wanna talk about it, it's cool.
👁️🗨️......