Some earlier Honda engines used a pre-chamber like you show for the Mercedes. CVCC was the engine type. The engine had a single intake valve in the pre-chamber that was connected to a constant velocity carburetor. This CV carburetor was a portion of the larger carburetor that ran a very lean mixture through the regular intake valve. I think the CVCC engines worked so well that Honda was able to put off installing catalytic converters in their cars until about 1980? Researching the CVCC engine and doing a video on it would be very interesting to me!
I loved the cvcc in my 79 accord! it was really efficient and very peppy for the engine size. I remember it had a 3 barrel carb. 1 tiny butterfly was just for idle then a small one and the largest was almost the size of a nickel
The principle was introduced by Honda. They called the stratified charge system Controlled Vortex Compound Combustion. The carburetor was actually two carburetors in one housing; a conventional 2-barrel, tuned lean, and a small auxiliary carburetor that was set for a very rich mixture. Each of the 2 carburetors had its own idle circuit. Neither was a constant-velocity type.
@@bbogdanmircea i watched that episode and it was just after this had been revealed and i thought the same. why they did not use it in the honda f1 engine of the time i cant fathom
Scottie Hanna exactly and became the civic. Using a 3 barrel carb, to have the easy to light rich chamber to ignite the hard to ignite ultra lean cylinder mixture.
Hey Jason, Long time viewer who doesn't often comment here - just wanted to say thank you for all you do. In 2017 I purchased my first car, a 2015 Focus ST and I've been having a blast driving it, wrenching on it, and learning about how every component works with the help of your videos. You are a super smart guy and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and passion for automotive engineering through this channel. It's been a big help in my learning experience, especially as I have no formal education in mechanical engineering or automotive maintenance. I love watching the old videos with the whiteboard and dim lighting and seeing how far you have come to making these videos today, thank you so much and keep up the great work! Very excited to see where the channel goes in the future.
The main reason I watch this channel is how you present the info, you talk clearly you know what your on about and I can understand everything to the point where I know so much info about cars I hardly need to remember most of what I get taught in school.
Cars Simplified i could Imagine that it is rather complicated to have such a long thin shaft rotating at such high rpm (100k+) So i think it would be to expensive for massproduction to justify the performance icrease. But correct me if i'm wrong :)
I really enjoy the whiteboard videos man. If these videos were available back in 2003 when I started the university, I would have chosen to be an automotive engineer/mechanic. Keep up the good work!
This is very much like a modern version of the old Honda CVCC engines, which also used a pre-combustion chamber with a richer mixture to ignite a leaner mixture in the main combustion chamber. However the pre-combustion chamber did not get its air the same way this engine does, it got it's air and fuel through a third barrel in the carburetor. This meant that they had to have a third, smaller valve on every cylinder for the pre-combustion chamber. I'm guessing Mercedes wanted to avoid that because the smaller valve spring on that third valve would essentially limit the rpm the engine could achieve, since it wouldn't be big enough to fight valve float. Honda also piped blow-by gases back into the intake, but I think that had more to do with emissions than it did with thermal efficiency.
Excellent video. Thank you. Honda introduced the lean burn engines in the early 80's I think. It also had a pre chamber and lean charge in the main cylinder.
I really like that you use a white board and not CG and a green screen. Your drawings strike the right balance of detail without getting cluttered. Big fan!
These current F1 power units are true beasts, it's really sad they are so ill-spoken. Any chance of hinting how do you get access to these infos? Constructors info or espionage? Haha
more like under-powered compare to other eras in F1/other motorsport series, overly complicated, causing massive development cost and huge performance differences between the front runners and mid field team, very unreliable, sounds like crap(the majority of F1 fans agrees so don't argue). F1 has been about pushing the boundaries of what's possible, and we are going the opposite with such straight rules governing every component of the PU, teams should be able to innovate and have their own unique approach, instead of rolling the dice, hoping the mostly similar engine of their competitors will fail first. There has to be a change in this, hopefully the 2021 engine rules revamp will deliver.
"more like under-powered compare to other eras in F1/other motorsport series" - no engine in F1 history reached 1000Hp. Mercedes is close to this. And the cars are the fastest in history, and doing this with 1/3 of the fuel used previously. "causing (...) huge performance differences between the front runners and mid field team" - this has always existed in F1. See next point. "very unreliable" - This is so untrue, unless you are considering just Honda and 2017 Renault. In the past everyone won races because cars were extremely unreliable, and there are several examples of pilots with 90% of the finished races in the podium, but nowhere near to be champion, since he only finished like 50% of the races. "sounds like crap(the majority of F1 fans agrees so don't argue)" - I also miss the old sound, it was much more impressive, no arguing. But I don't think this sole point should cause so much damage. "F1 has been about pushing the boundaries of what's possible" - I think this is being done at the power units front. However, this ALWAYS comes with huge investments, as you said. I would also like to see it in aerodynamics and other fronts (maybe electronics?), but the costs and the importance desired for the pilot limit this. It is a tough balance to find. I would love to see 3 or 4 different approaches to power units and aero in F1 (like LMP1), but the costs deregulating all at once would eventually destroy F1 (like LMP1). But I agree that a mid-term solution must be searched. Maybe with a standard unexpensive option for a hybrid engine for the mid-field teams, with the front runners limitated in cost, idk. However, electrification is the future, whether we like it or not, and the focus must be to find a solution on this direction that produces good races and is attractive to constructors.
jamie 711711 I second you on the "sound like crap" argument. I listened to the engine note for the first time when I saw Lewis Hamilton's driving. That puny V6 sounds more like a sporty high-revving 250cc bike than a proper Formula 1 beast. Really miss the V8s.
I should have specified. This is true (from what I know) for race configuration. The Turbos in the 80s reached more than a 1000 (some say 1400), but in quali. They had to be seriously de-rated to last one whole race. And they were "tiny" 1500cc 4 or 6 cilinders.
That was really cool for me!!! I had just started work at the Honda dealership in 1987, and back before that they were using CVCC which was their term for a precombustion chamber.
Hi! According to James Allen (f1 journalist) and Craig Scarborough F1 engine uses the injector located in the pre chamber area. Congrats on your channel, always reliable and thorough information. Keep it that way!
Great video, but I think you left out an important aspect of the MGUH - it can act as a motor, to help spool up the turbo faster at lower revs, to eliminate turbo lag. I'm sure that has some efficiency benefits, besides the improved responsiveness and power curve. Thanks again for the great videos!
Honda had exactly the same purpose but used a three barrel carburetor instead of the fuel injectors to fuel the engine. It was a leaned out two barrel carb with a third tiny barrel for the prechamber which had a normal air/fuel ratio.
The purpose at the Honda was to pass new Emission laws. Its not a power tool. The direct injection and the design of the chamber makes it a complete different animal at the end.
I used to fly general aviation a/c and they had something called Lean of Peak. At altitude we had to lean the engine due to less dense air the higher you go. We used to lean it till the engine started sputtering then richen it up a couple turns of the mixture knob or lever. Someone figured out that the engine wouldn't eat itself if you had temp probes on each cylinder and could keep cyl head temps below a certain temp. Now they use computers to do it for you, do you know if this is done in consumer cars now??? Excellent video Mr EE :-)
Some Engine Control Units do this almost continuously and with more advanced sensors like a knock-sensor and O2 sensors. Modern car engines really benefit from the computer control to get their performance and economy.
Brian W, the funny thing is that in GA it is generally still done in this way... (you really described Rich of peak) - cars have had auto mixture controls for many decades.... Don't worry RC toys are usually more advanced than the current "state of the art" in GA.
Excellent video, great info!!!! Having turbulent flames thrown to promote maximum combustion, is particularly important as the engines have very short stroke and large bore. Pre chambers have been used on diesel engines long before... Thank you for the great videos!
zcsb1 I came to the comments to find this out. I would like him to acknowledge the oil burn as well. My guess is the 50% efficiency isn't the real efficiency and doesn't account for the extra high energy oil they run and burn.
Dennis, hmm, Only if the MGUK was disabled for the efficiency tests would this be the case... In normal ops energy to spool up turbo must all be accounted for (it is an energy cost in the "idealised carnot cycle" - not sure which exact cycle is used in these engines, sure doesn't appear to be Otto)... Don't forget that energy recovered from regen braking is also part of the thermal efficiency equation, in normal usage.. -)
Hulloo to you too Jason. The inter web of pixilated things loves your videos. Thanks for another entertaining and enlightening lesson that's fun to digest.
it's actually not new. the honda civic CVCC from the early 70s used this method to bypass the emission regulation of the era without a catalytic converter, also 'accidentally' the car won the most fuel efficient car of the year award few years after it's release
That is only a small part of a ridiculously complex machine. What this engine does isn't necessarily groundbraking, it's all about how efficiently it's able to do it.
Another brilliant video. If guys want to learn about cars as a start, this is the channel to listen to. Everything explained simple so guys who didn't study engineering know exactly what is happening. Thanks for the video. Your content just gets better and more interesting
I have evaluated motor augmented turbo's as a way to minimize turbo lag. The motor only needs to be big enough to generate enough exhaust gas to get the turbo into the positive feedback (why a waste gate is needed). My optimum system uses a CVT to drive the turbo. Need boost, shift the CVT to spool the turbo very quickly, as the exhaust gas builds, shift the CVT to let that spool the turbo. Instead of a waste gate, shift the CVT to extract exhaust power from the turbine, controlling boost, and sending the excess power to the crank.
Great video but I'm surprised you didn't mention that the MGU-H is also used as a motor to spool the turbo to prevent turbo lag. So it switches between acting as motor and a generator depending on what the driver is doing.
That split turbo was and still is a sheer stroke of genius from the Mercedes engineers. And, you've explained it wonderfully crisp and clear. Again. And while they have not yet built a production car with this feature, they did built a 'Hot-inside-V' engine. It seems to have adopted some of the principles used here. Can you do a video on that motor maybe?
I think it would be smarter to leave the injector in the pre chamber and just have mulitple injection events. It would make sense as the intake stroke starts, an injection event would disperse some of that fuel through the pre chamber ports and into the cylinder, and then once the compression stroke is over, the cylinder AFR would be lean but the pre chamber could have a second injection event causing a rich AFR, that would ensure good combustion. That would be the most logical thing to do in my opinion, its simple, and easier to control than trying to spilt the injector into 2 different chambers.
Yeah, this is probably how it's done. It's exactly what is done in consumer engines, called stratified split injection. You inject most of the fuel during the inlet stroke to give it the most mixing time (standard for di engines) and then you inject a tiny amount right before the spark plug fires so there is a rich zone next to it.
That's a good question. I'm guessing it just gets extracted through the flame ports, though maybe not perfectly, but maybe well enough to still provide a benefit. But that's just a guess.
As the gas expands inside the pre chamber most of its volume in displaced into the main combustion chamber. Along comes the cooler and therfore denser inlet charge, and then along comes the compression stroke which must therefore drive gas back into the pre chamber. But it could of course also be the force, or Voodoo, or as some say, the unicorn effect.
The oil burning numbers will go way down for 2018 based on rule changes. Burning oil doesn't necessarily make it more efficient (depends how much energy you get out of the oil).
No, teams use oil burn to negate the effect of limited fuel flow rate, so when they're running at max fuel flow rate they can make more power by adding in a little oil into the combustion chamber.
Mercedes is a very diverse manufacture, even if they expect the ICE powered car to be gone in the next decade, they have huge other markets where they sell combustion engines.
It' s just exactly what happening in a diesel with indirect injection with pre-chambers.... It's stratified combustion,quite an old concept. certainly some split injection with an injector in the prechamber,or above. spray once ,mixture is pulled in the cylinder,spray a second time in the chamber,at the end of the stroke ,just before the spark to have two strates.
Engineering Explained yeah. It's just they designed these highly complex and amazing engines for efficiency and what not, But still decide to have a combustible oil to give them more power.
That's a very naughty thing to say - as both Mercedes and Ferrari have been accused of doing just that. So the allowable oil useage has been regulated more closely for 2018
Burning oil will reduce octane which requires lower compression. It's doesn't increase power output, at least not the peak power normally stated in gas cars.
I think there is one injector in the small chamber, but has two pulses. One when there is initial intake stroke to fill cylinder (fuel will expand and fill the cylinder) and then a short one to fill the chamber with rich mixture when the piston is past half way back in the compression stroke. But it is quite neat idea. 50% efficiency sounds awesome.
@Harry no, the Honda engine uses HCCI, which is a very different concept. And to OP: All the manufacturers use a form of TJI (which is what this technique of pre chamber ignition) in F1.
Hey Jason, So I have a weird one for you. The physics behind rear window self-splash. Yes I just made that up, because I have no idea what it's really called. You know that phenomenon where hatchbacks (essentially every car with a flat rear end) to a varying degree dirty their own rear window when it's wet outside. What are the physics behind that? I imagine it must have something to do with overhang, that is how far in the rear axle, and therefore the rear wheels, is in correlation to the rear bumper. Rear vacuum must also play a role, no? Vehicle aerodynamics. And what about the slope of the rear window? I have no idea if this is something you'd consider answering, but now it has been asked :)
By design, the oil is engineered to be combustible and so it generates power when burned. It's basically a little extra free gas on top of what you're allowed to put in the tank.
Honda did the pre chamber in the 80's. CVCC engines did this very well. 3 valves per cylinder, and a trick carb. The carburetor was the hardest part to maintain.
Old is new! Honda used this system in the 1970's with carburetion in order to comply with our emissions laws. They called it CVCC, which stands for compound Vortex Combustion Chamber. They did well up until NOx became regulated in1981. Lean burn makes lots of NOx. Fuel injection was more promising, so it was phased out. Prelude had it until 1983. Accord until 1985. Civic persisted until 1987. I still have a 1981 Accord in my garage. There is a youtube video of my civic 1500s. A very rare Honda. Search : 1983 1500s civic
Turbos and auto go together like torque and tyre smoke. Ever been in an auto wrx that had boost and a high stall? I have, and I'm pretty sure you'd need a P100D to beat it across an intersection
Small addition: Another advantage of the split turbo is that the inlet piping is much shorter. That means the package can be smaller (less drag) and less air resistance so more air = more power. Maybe you (Jason) explained this in a previous video. Anyway very interesting (as always;-)
In my opinion, this would increase the turbo lag because now, the turbine has to turn a generator before turning the compressor. Also the long shaft, add more mass to be turned. But I'm not a F1 engineer so I must be wrong lol
Yes that is correct. Roughly 0.5 mega joules of electrical energy per lap is used from the battery to keep the turbo shaft at high speed while the engine is not producing sufficient exhaust flow.
The converter used in recovering energy ( MGUH ) is inverted to be used as an electric motor and that revs up the turbo,essentially the phrase “instant torque” used for the turbo
50 years? I don't think so. Do you have a link with any insight on that? But yes, different technologies have different efficiencies. Big diesel container ships will have engines exceeding 50% efficiency.
Engineering Explained if you look up Detroit Diesel you will find that they had their series 71 engine pre ww2. The only reason 2 stroke diesels are not really used anymore in automotive is because they couldn’t keep up with Cummins in terms of reliability.
You could force part of the air during the intake stroke through the prechamber, that way you would only need the one injector at the prechamber. Reminds me of a Wärtsilä marine 2-stroke LNG engine, they use a diesel/HFO pilot injection to ignite the LNG. This also allows for a fuel changeover under load and even flexible diesel / LNG ratio.
Nice video, as a side note though, way back in my life as a Honda mechanic they had a CVCC engine that used a similar method. Perhaps you could cover this in a future video. (It delivered great fuel economy, but could be a pain to service, as it was still carburated.)
junk, Mercedes road cars have so many engineering flaws its not even funny. my sis had a 08 clk350 with only 37k it had broken variable intake runners, cracked flex plate and balance shaft design flaw that took out the engine so MB replaced her car with a 09 with only 28k miles and it had rod knock on cold start. Mercedes has class action lawsuit against them over the balance shaft design flaw because they knew it was faulty and refused to fix it under lemon laws. The flex plate cracking issue has been happening since the 1990s and they didn't bother to fix it for 25 years. The hydraulic suspension cars also have a design flaw that break and leaks hydraulic fluid on the cat and causes fire worse case best case you get stranded because the body sets down on the wheels making the car inoperable, even if you fix it the flaw is still there and it will fail again every 50k miles. Its not that these problems occurred its that Mercedes knew and refused to acknowledge the problem which left a bunch of people footing a $12,000 repair bill on a car that was only 4 years old and 28,000 miles. Mercedes is no longer the company they once were.
The single injector in F1 engines is in the pre-chamber. It's most likely that the fuel to provide the lean mix in the main chamber is drawn from the pre-chamber during the intake stroke. The more rich mixture in the pre-chamber is then created by simply injecting more fuel before ignition.
They can also add a smaller secondary super charger to push cold air into the exhaust chamber before the turbo system, as the cool air expand from the hot exhaust gas it will create more exhaust pressure and more power to the turbo.
The dual injector engine is brilliant. I wonder how long it will take before the technology trickles down to normal cars. We will probably get the split single injector though (fewer parts, hopefully less complicated, etc). I enjoyed this video.
You did a great job on the Ford GT suspension video. It would be awesome if you could do a video on the advantages/disadvantages of the common suspension types such as double-wishbone, live-axel, and others.
The "prechamber" tech is generally referred to as Turbulent Jet Ignition or TJI. Some team's have the whole TJI setup at the end of the spark plug itself and pump fuel straight through the plug. F1 engineers are freaking madmen
Another great video, it will be interesting to see if Mercedes can take this from the lab to the track, so many different variables to consider out in the open.
The Honda Cvcc I Think also had a pre-chamber ignition type system. It was a little known difference that was responsible for Honda’s reputation for being so efficient.
*Old whiteboard videos are back!!!! I am so happy!*
Why does it have to be a "huwhite" board? That's so racist
/s
theyve never left
I have some ideas to share
@@jotabarberaIV I know about MAN diesel 2 piston 54% efficiency. This one?
Automotive Science simply explained, that's why I love this channel, good job, thanks
Some earlier Honda engines used a pre-chamber like you show for the Mercedes. CVCC was the engine type. The engine had a single intake valve in the pre-chamber that was connected to a constant velocity carburetor. This CV carburetor was a portion of the larger carburetor that ran a very lean mixture through the regular intake valve. I think the CVCC engines worked so well that Honda was able to put off installing catalytic converters in their cars until about 1980? Researching the CVCC engine and doing a video on it would be very interesting to me!
rickrack78 There is one Wheeler Dealers episode about this !
I was reading these comments waiting for someone to mention this haha
I loved the cvcc in my 79 accord! it was really efficient and very peppy for the engine size. I remember it had a 3 barrel carb. 1 tiny butterfly was just for idle then a small one and the largest was almost the size of a nickel
The principle was introduced by Honda. They called the stratified charge system Controlled Vortex Compound Combustion. The carburetor was actually two carburetors in one housing; a conventional 2-barrel, tuned lean, and a small auxiliary carburetor that was set for a very rich mixture. Each of the 2 carburetors had its own idle circuit. Neither was a constant-velocity type.
@@bbogdanmircea i watched that episode and it was just after this had been revealed and i thought the same. why they did not use it in the honda f1 engine of the time i cant fathom
I feel like your drawing skills are improving. The drawing on the left especially.
The old Honda CVCC's used to use this technology in the 70s. Pretty interesting stuff!
Scottie Hanna exactly and became the civic. Using a 3 barrel carb, to have the easy to light rich chamber to ignite the hard to ignite ultra lean cylinder mixture.
Hey Jason,
Long time viewer who doesn't often comment here - just wanted to say thank you for all you do. In 2017 I purchased my first car, a 2015 Focus ST and I've been having a blast driving it, wrenching on it, and learning about how every component works with the help of your videos. You are a super smart guy and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and passion for automotive engineering through this channel. It's been a big help in my learning experience, especially as I have no formal education in mechanical engineering or automotive maintenance. I love watching the old videos with the whiteboard and dim lighting and seeing how far you have come to making these videos today, thank you so much and keep up the great work! Very excited to see where the channel goes in the future.
This guy is good he should make youtube videos
I think I just might! ;)
Engineering Explained yeah you should, I’d watch it
Isn't he already doing now? HAHAH lol
@@funny573ff thats the joke
i have a better idea ... he should work for ferrari
The main reason I watch this channel is how you present the info, you talk clearly you know what your on about and I can understand everything to the point where I know so much info about cars I hardly need to remember most of what I get taught in school.
I really like that split turbo design. Do you think that will ever find its way into a production vehicle?
Cars Simplified i could Imagine that it is rather complicated to have such a long thin shaft rotating at such high rpm (100k+) So i think it would be to expensive for massproduction to justify the performance icrease.
But correct me if i'm wrong :)
According to the Mercedes website, the Mercedes Concept One will use it :)
The Citroen XM used the same split longshaft turbo in the eighties.
Umm.. Main advantage is power unit packing n size. That advantage is not a big deal in production road car
Its actually used in mercedes trucks, they apparently got the idea of the split turbo from their truck division
I really enjoy the whiteboard videos man. If these videos were available back in 2003 when I started the university, I would have chosen to be an automotive engineer/mechanic. Keep up the good work!
Thanks Engineering Explained
I was confused on how the mguh works with the single turbo and how they achieved more than 50% thermal efficiency
This adicional chamber, is PERFECT! Genius Mercedes. Well done...
indeed. truly innovative
Honda did it 40 years ago CVCC
Designed and build in the UK
Every F1 engine has it nowadays
This is very much like a modern version of the old Honda CVCC engines, which also used a pre-combustion chamber with a richer mixture to ignite a leaner mixture in the main combustion chamber. However the pre-combustion chamber did not get its air the same way this engine does, it got it's air and fuel through a third barrel in the carburetor. This meant that they had to have a third, smaller valve on every cylinder for the pre-combustion chamber. I'm guessing Mercedes wanted to avoid that because the smaller valve spring on that third valve would essentially limit the rpm the engine could achieve, since it wouldn't be big enough to fight valve float. Honda also piped blow-by gases back into the intake, but I think that had more to do with emissions than it did with thermal efficiency.
By piping blow-by to the intake, don't you mean the mandatory PCV?
Excellent video. Thank you.
Honda introduced the lean burn engines in the early 80's I think. It also had a pre chamber and lean charge in the main cylinder.
WE WANT MORE FORMULA 1 VIDEOS !!!!!
I really like that you use a white board and not CG and a green screen. Your drawings strike the right balance of detail without getting cluttered. Big fan!
These current F1 power units are true beasts, it's really sad they are so ill-spoken.
Any chance of hinting how do you get access to these infos? Constructors info or espionage? Haha
more like under-powered compare to other eras in F1/other motorsport series, overly complicated, causing massive development cost and huge performance differences between the front runners and mid field team, very unreliable, sounds like crap(the majority of F1 fans agrees so don't argue). F1 has been about pushing the boundaries of what's possible, and we are going the opposite with such straight rules governing every component of the PU, teams should be able to innovate and have their own unique approach, instead of rolling the dice, hoping the mostly similar engine of their competitors will fail first. There has to be a change in this, hopefully the 2021 engine rules revamp will deliver.
"more like under-powered compare to other eras in F1/other motorsport series" - no engine in F1 history reached 1000Hp. Mercedes is close to this. And the cars are the fastest in history, and doing this with 1/3 of the fuel used previously.
"causing (...) huge performance differences between the front runners and mid field team" - this has always existed in F1. See next point.
"very unreliable" - This is so untrue, unless you are considering just Honda and 2017 Renault. In the past everyone won races because cars were extremely unreliable, and there are several examples of pilots with 90% of the finished races in the podium, but nowhere near to be champion, since he only finished like 50% of the races.
"sounds like crap(the majority of F1 fans agrees so don't argue)" - I also miss the old sound, it was much more impressive, no arguing. But I don't think this sole point should cause so much damage.
"F1 has been about pushing the boundaries of what's possible" - I think this is being done at the power units front. However, this ALWAYS comes with huge investments, as you said. I would also like to see it in aerodynamics and other fronts (maybe electronics?), but the costs and the importance desired for the pilot limit this. It is a tough balance to find.
I would love to see 3 or 4 different approaches to power units and aero in F1 (like LMP1), but the costs deregulating all at once would eventually destroy F1 (like LMP1). But I agree that a mid-term solution must be searched. Maybe with a standard unexpensive option for a hybrid engine for the mid-field teams, with the front runners limitated in cost, idk. However, electrification is the future, whether we like it or not, and the focus must be to find a solution on this direction that produces good races and is attractive to constructors.
jamie 711711 I second you on the "sound like crap" argument. I listened to the engine note for the first time when I saw Lewis Hamilton's driving. That puny V6 sounds more like a sporty high-revving 250cc bike than a proper Formula 1 beast. Really miss the V8s.
TCA17 "no engine in F1 history reached 1000hp." What about those old turbo V10s in the 1980s and some of the 1990s? (note that I am no expert in F1)
I should have specified. This is true (from what I know) for race configuration. The Turbos in the 80s reached more than a 1000 (some say 1400), but in quali. They had to be seriously de-rated to last one whole race. And they were "tiny" 1500cc 4 or 6 cilinders.
That was really cool for me!!! I had just started work at the Honda dealership in 1987, and back before that they were using CVCC
which was their term for a precombustion chamber.
I think you should do more F1 content. Like rule changes and such.
Hi! According to James Allen (f1 journalist) and Craig Scarborough F1 engine uses the injector located in the pre chamber area. Congrats on your channel, always reliable and thorough information. Keep it that way!
Thermal efficiency is exactly what needs to be talked about in 2018. Too much dirty electricity being used to charge Teslas
Power plants are far more efficient at producing energy than internal combustion engine cars are (even if the source is natural gas, coal, etc).
Nuclear ftw.
You clearly do not understand.
@@EngineeringExplained production, sure. Delivery of that energy all the way across the states? Try again.
Great video, but I think you left out an important aspect of the MGUH - it can act as a motor, to help spool up the turbo faster at lower revs, to eliminate turbo lag. I'm sure that has some efficiency benefits, besides the improved responsiveness and power curve. Thanks again for the great videos!
Isn't the idea of using a pre chamber to ignite a rich mix, but burning a lean mix similar in a way to the concept of Honda's CVCC engines?
That was my thought. Honda did that to meet emission standards, long enough ago that their patents have expired.
Bit different concept for a different purpose. But they both have the Pre-Chamber in common, even when designed total differently.
Honda had exactly the same purpose but used a three barrel carburetor instead of the fuel injectors to fuel the engine. It was a leaned out two barrel carb with a third tiny barrel for the prechamber which had a normal air/fuel ratio.
The purpose at the Honda was to pass new Emission laws. Its not a power tool. The direct injection and the design of the chamber makes it a complete different animal at the end.
Mark Nobel: Get a brain!!!
I used to fly general aviation a/c and they had something called Lean of Peak. At altitude we had to lean the engine due to less dense air the higher you go. We used to lean it till the engine started sputtering then richen it up a couple turns of the mixture knob or lever. Someone figured out that the engine wouldn't eat itself if you had temp probes on each cylinder and could keep cyl head temps below a certain temp. Now they use computers to do it for you, do you know if this is done in consumer cars now??? Excellent video Mr EE :-)
Some Engine Control Units do this almost continuously and with more advanced sensors like a knock-sensor and O2 sensors. Modern car engines really benefit from the computer control to get their performance and economy.
Brian W, the funny thing is that in GA it is generally still done in this way...
(you really described Rich of peak) - cars have had auto mixture controls for many decades....
Don't worry RC toys are usually more advanced than the current "state of the art" in GA.
Actually.... This is my first time where the bell notification works, and yeah as always, wonderful video.
Thanks for joining, glad you enjoyed the video!
Excellent video, great info!!!!
Having turbulent flames thrown to promote maximum combustion, is particularly important as the engines have very short stroke and large bore.
Pre chambers have been used on diesel engines long before...
Thank you for the great videos!
Does this includes the oil injection ?
zcsb1 I came to the comments to find this out. I would like him to acknowledge the oil burn as well. My guess is the 50% efficiency isn't the real efficiency and doesn't account for the extra high energy oil they run and burn.
I'm pretty sure he made one specifically about it, but I can't find it any more !
It also has an MGU-K that stores kinetic energy from braking in a battery for later use, and a motor that spins up the turbo so it has no turbo lag
Harry Kettle True, but it's unrelated to the thermal efficiency of the engine.
Dennis, hmm, Only if the MGUK was disabled for the efficiency tests would this be the case... In normal ops energy to spool up turbo must all be accounted for (it is an energy cost in the "idealised carnot cycle" - not sure which exact cycle is used in these engines, sure doesn't appear to be Otto)... Don't forget that energy recovered from regen braking is also part of the thermal efficiency equation, in normal usage.. -)
What about COMPRESSION RATIO AFTER THIS PRECOMBUSTION CHAMBER.....
Always have been a huge Mercedes fan, this is awesome
That's ingenious, and to do it at such high RPM's makes it twice as impressive.
Hulloo to you too Jason. The inter web of pixilated things loves your videos. Thanks for another entertaining and enlightening lesson that's fun to digest.
It seems like such a simple concept. I wonder why it was just created.
it's actually not new. the honda civic CVCC from the early 70s used this method to bypass the emission regulation of the era without a catalytic converter, also 'accidentally' the car won the most fuel efficient car of the year award few years after it's release
Koolkei I guess it's only ground-breaking when Mercedes does it.
Check out the honda city turbo
That is only a small part of a ridiculously complex machine. What this engine does isn't necessarily groundbraking, it's all about how efficiently it's able to do it.
I'm pretty sure I saw something that said these originally began use in large diesel engines
Another brilliant video. If guys want to learn about cars as a start, this is the channel to listen to. Everything explained simple so guys who didn't study engineering know exactly what is happening. Thanks for the video. Your content just gets better and more interesting
Interesting stuff
I have evaluated motor augmented turbo's as a way to minimize turbo lag. The motor only needs to be big enough to generate enough exhaust gas to get the turbo into the positive feedback (why a waste gate is needed).
My optimum system uses a CVT to drive the turbo. Need boost, shift the CVT to spool the turbo very quickly, as the exhaust gas builds, shift the CVT to let that spool the turbo.
Instead of a waste gate, shift the CVT to extract exhaust power from the turbine, controlling boost, and sending the excess power to the crank.
Hell yes Mercedes-AMG Petronas
Great video but I'm surprised you didn't mention that the MGU-H is also used as a motor to spool the turbo to prevent turbo lag. So it switches between acting as motor and a generator depending on what the driver is doing.
+Engineering Explained:
Hands down of the best physics teacher i've ever had!
Thumbs up! Subscribed!! Notification Bell!!!
Boom!!!
That split turbo was and still is a sheer stroke of genius from the Mercedes engineers. And, you've explained it wonderfully crisp and clear. Again. And while they have not yet built a production car with this feature, they did built a 'Hot-inside-V' engine. It seems to have adopted some of the principles used here. Can you do a video on that motor maybe?
I think it would be smarter to leave the injector in the pre chamber and just have mulitple injection events. It would make sense as the intake stroke starts, an injection event would disperse some of that fuel through the pre chamber ports and into the cylinder, and then once the compression stroke is over, the cylinder AFR would be lean but the pre chamber could have a second injection event causing a rich AFR, that would ensure good combustion. That would be the most logical thing to do in my opinion, its simple, and easier to control than trying to spilt the injector into 2 different chambers.
Matt Knill it might become to rich in the prechamber
One way to find out. Try it! I would, but I've got to finish this beer.
Matt Knill i agree though
Yeah, this is probably how it's done. It's exactly what is done in consumer engines, called stratified split injection. You inject most of the fuel during the inlet stroke to give it the most mixing time (standard for di engines) and then you inject a tiny amount right before the spark plug fires so there is a rich zone next to it.
Thanks for sharing this. Love to watch your stuff.
I wonder how much this would increase fuel efficiency in our cars
177SCmaro much more than that. Going from 30% to 50% is about a 60% increase in efficiency. So for the same power output you would use 60% less gas.
Another trick with the MGUH is that it can be used to spin up the turbo so as to completely eliminate turbo-lag as if it was a supercharger.
Paul Barnett He mentioned that, IIRC. Maybe you didn't notice that part.
How do they extract the exhaust gasses from the prechamber?
light dispels darkness it's magic
They don't
light dispels darkness
That's a good question. I'm guessing it just gets extracted through the flame ports, though maybe not perfectly, but maybe well enough to still provide a benefit. But that's just a guess.
As the gas expands inside the pre chamber most of its volume in displaced into the main combustion chamber. Along comes the cooler and therfore denser inlet charge, and then along comes the compression stroke which must therefore drive gas back into the pre chamber.
But it could of course also be the force, or Voodoo, or as some say, the unicorn effect.
that is just awesome
the combustion engines just keep getting more efficent and powerful
Does it include all the engine oil they're burning?
The oil burning numbers will go way down for 2018 based on rule changes. Burning oil doesn't necessarily make it more efficient (depends how much energy you get out of the oil).
the ammount of oil burned is now down to 0,5 litres per 100km. As of spa/monza 2017 season.
No, teams use oil burn to negate the effect of limited fuel flow rate, so when they're running at max fuel flow rate they can make more power by adding in a little oil into the combustion chamber.
Achal Bhutani Ferrari was the team ultimately accused of using the oil trick. Mercedes is okay with petrol only.
I think they both used it.
more formula 1 tech please :) I will never get bored learning more about formula 1!
Mercedes showing us ICE vehicles still has hope. It's not gonna die!
Haha, well 50% thermal efficiency is no where near electric motor thermal efficiency.
Engineering Explained True! but still amazing to see car company not giving up on ICE cars & move to EV only
I hope he realizes that these cars are at least still hybrids. That's where they find the most success.
Mercedes is a very diverse manufacture, even if they expect the ICE powered car to be gone in the next decade, they have huge other markets where they sell combustion engines.
this is f1 tech. would take time to reach mass market because of price.
It' s just exactly what happening in a diesel with indirect injection with pre-chambers....
It's stratified combustion,quite an old concept.
certainly some split injection with an injector in the prechamber,or above.
spray once ,mixture is pulled in the cylinder,spray a second time in the chamber,at the end of the stroke ,just before the spark to have two strates.
Honda engine
AKJ lul
Honda uses tiny incendiary grenades. Hence the unreliability.
tbh honda engines are very reliable...
@The Adversary - Just not in F1, right?
well f1 is a whole thing on its own. I meant the road use engines made by honda
Thanks for another great video :)
Then it hydrolocked, LOL, AutoVlog. Jokes aside, this is very interesting.
I absolutely love clever Engineering 😁 Thanks for such a clear explanation!
I thought an efficient engine wouldn't burn its own oil for more power :D
That increases power output, but not necessarily efficiency.
Engineering Explained yeah. It's just they designed these highly complex and amazing engines for efficiency and what not, But still decide to have a combustible oil to give them more power.
That's a very naughty thing to say - as both Mercedes and Ferrari have been accused of doing just that. So the allowable oil useage has been regulated more closely for 2018
Burning oil will reduce octane which requires lower compression. It's doesn't increase power output, at least not the peak power normally stated in gas cars.
I think there is one injector in the small chamber, but has two pulses. One when there is initial intake stroke to fill cylinder (fuel will expand and fill the cylinder) and then a short one to fill the chamber with rich mixture when the piston is past half way back in the compression stroke.
But it is quite neat idea. 50% efficiency sounds awesome.
renault, ferrari and special honda should watch this
i know that, it was just a joke xD
alvaro maureira The Honda engine is near identical in layout to Mercedes, it’s just very far back in development
Harry Kettle i remember that honda's chief said that their mayor problem was the mguh unit
Pre-chamber combustion is not something really new - this approach was implemented in diesels long ago.
@Harry no, the Honda engine uses HCCI, which is a very different concept.
And to OP: All the manufacturers use a form of TJI (which is what this technique of pre chamber ignition) in F1.
Very interesting I knew about the split turbo but not how it improved efficiency!
Malaysia 2016
Hey Jason,
So I have a weird one for you.
The physics behind rear window self-splash. Yes I just made that up, because I have no idea what it's really called. You know that phenomenon where hatchbacks (essentially every car with a flat rear end) to a varying degree dirty their own rear window when it's wet outside. What are the physics behind that? I imagine it must have something to do with overhang, that is how far in the rear axle, and therefore the rear wheels, is in correlation to the rear bumper. Rear vacuum must also play a role, no? Vehicle aerodynamics. And what about the slope of the rear window?
I have no idea if this is something you'd consider answering, but now it has been asked :)
Cough cough-burning oil-cough cough
By design, the oil is engineered to be combustible and so it generates power when burned. It's basically a little extra free gas on top of what you're allowed to put in the tank.
Honda did the pre chamber in the 80's. CVCC engines did this very well. 3 valves per cylinder, and a trick carb. The carburetor was the hardest part to maintain.
Why didn't Koniggseg come up with this idea,🤔
They don't have Mercedes money
Apurv Jadhav they work on Freevalve
To be honest, Freevalve is far more interesting to me than TJI.
Augusto Rallo yes, less power loss
Great explanation Jason. Thx.
VTEC is 89% thermal efficient.
this some kind of joke?
I think it is 89.999%
I think it is 89.999%
more like 2%
Lawl
Old is new! Honda used this system in the 1970's with carburetion in order to comply with our emissions laws. They called it CVCC, which stands for compound Vortex Combustion Chamber. They did well up until NOx became regulated in1981. Lean burn makes lots of NOx. Fuel injection was more promising, so it was phased out. Prelude had it until 1983. Accord until 1985. Civic persisted until 1987. I still have a 1981 Accord in my garage. There is a youtube video of my civic 1500s. A very rare Honda. Search : 1983 1500s civic
Jason the kind of guy to buy a turbo manual over a NA auto
Don't we all prefer a turbo manual over an NA automatic?
Yes we do
Absolutely. To be honest I thought for a minute there was a typo. Just seems like a strange thing to say.
I've owned four cars, three were NA manual and one was turbo manual haha.
Turbos and auto go together like torque and tyre smoke.
Ever been in an auto wrx that had boost and a high stall? I have, and I'm pretty sure you'd need a P100D to beat it across an intersection
Small addition:
Another advantage of the split turbo is that the inlet piping is much shorter. That means the package can be smaller (less drag) and less air resistance so more air = more power.
Maybe you (Jason) explained this in a previous video. Anyway very interesting (as always;-)
In my opinion, this would increase the turbo lag because now, the turbine has to turn a generator before turning the compressor. Also the long shaft, add more mass to be turned. But I'm not a F1 engineer so I must be wrong lol
jr nascimento. What does turbo lag mean to a formula 1 car?
Surely it can be used as a motor as well?
jr nascimento probably they use a e-turbo....
Yes that is correct. Roughly 0.5 mega joules of electrical energy per lap is used from the battery to keep the turbo shaft at high speed while the engine is not producing sufficient exhaust flow.
The converter used in recovering energy ( MGUH ) is inverted to be used as an electric motor and that revs up the turbo,essentially the phrase “instant torque” used for the turbo
I didn't know that a leaner-than-usual air-fuel mixture would actually not provide good combustion. Great info, as always!
Meanwhile two stroke diesel engines already had about 50% thermal efficiency for over 50 years(?).
sliwka621 yeah but emissions would never allow that to ever be mainstream.
50 years? I don't think so. Do you have a link with any insight on that? But yes, different technologies have different efficiencies. Big diesel container ships will have engines exceeding 50% efficiency.
Engineering Explained I think that the first 2 stroke diesel was implemented on the railroads in the '40. Was it that efficient? That I do not know.
Devin Stambolziovski Not my point to begin with but they were in fact mainstream and are still being used to this day.
Engineering Explained if you look up Detroit Diesel you will find that they had their series 71 engine pre ww2. The only reason 2 stroke diesels are not really used anymore in automotive is because they couldn’t keep up with Cummins in terms of reliability.
You could force part of the air during the intake stroke through the prechamber, that way you would only need the one injector at the prechamber.
Reminds me of a Wärtsilä marine 2-stroke LNG engine, they use a diesel/HFO pilot injection to ignite the LNG. This also allows for a fuel changeover under load and even flexible diesel / LNG ratio.
With nuclear fission we may be able to approach the real 50% efficiency... :p (e=mc^2)
Synerrox เ. We have had nuclear airplanes....
just kidding ^^ ofc he's talking about thermal efficiency
Synerrox เ He meant fusion, just misspelled it
you mean e85 :-p ?
in russia, potato drive you
Synerrox เ. Ok... you said we didnt have nuclear planes because the shielding was to heavy.... way to move the goal posts bud.
Nice video, as a side note though, way back in my life as a Honda mechanic they had a CVCC engine that used a similar method. Perhaps you could cover this in a future video. (It delivered great fuel economy, but could be a pain to service, as it was still carburated.)
*AMG ? =)
It's Mercedes, has nothing to do with AMG.
Perfect explanation.
Mercedes
The best,or nothing
junk, Mercedes road cars have so many engineering flaws its not even funny. my sis had a 08 clk350 with only 37k it had broken variable intake runners, cracked flex plate and balance shaft design flaw that took out the engine so MB replaced her car with a 09 with only 28k miles and it had rod knock on cold start. Mercedes has class action lawsuit against them over the balance shaft design flaw because they knew it was faulty and refused to fix it under lemon laws. The flex plate cracking issue has been happening since the 1990s and they didn't bother to fix it for 25 years. The hydraulic suspension cars also have a design flaw that break and leaks hydraulic fluid on the cat and causes fire worse case best case you get stranded because the body sets down on the wheels making the car inoperable, even if you fix it the flaw is still there and it will fail again every 50k miles. Its not that these problems occurred its that Mercedes knew and refused to acknowledge the problem which left a bunch of people footing a $12,000 repair bill on a car that was only 4 years old and 28,000 miles. Mercedes is no longer the company they once were.
The best or nothing... so you should your mercedes and bought Italian? :D
You are the man. That is all I gotta say, I love your videos.
The single injector in F1 engines is in the pre-chamber. It's most likely that the fuel to provide the lean mix in the main chamber is drawn from the pre-chamber during the intake stroke. The more rich mixture in the pre-chamber is then created by simply injecting more fuel before ignition.
Your videos are amazing man. Keep it up!
Genius idea! I've never even considered the possibility of splitting the hot and cool parts of the turbine.
They can also add a smaller secondary super charger to push cold air into the exhaust chamber before the turbo system, as the cool air expand from the hot exhaust gas it will create more exhaust pressure and more power to the turbo.
Your Channel is amazing. Thank you.
Dat engineering is so sick
The dual injector engine is brilliant. I wonder how long it will take before the technology trickles down to normal cars.
We will probably get the split single injector though (fewer parts, hopefully less complicated, etc).
I enjoyed this video.
You did a great job on the Ford GT suspension video. It would be awesome if you could do a video on the advantages/disadvantages of the common suspension types such as double-wishbone, live-axel, and others.
Check Charles Nelson Pogue patents, this sounds similar to what Charles did around 1935.
Cool, I can't wait for this to be used in daily applications!
Great job. Thanks much.
Great video and explanation!!
The "prechamber" tech is generally referred to as Turbulent Jet Ignition or TJI. Some team's have the whole TJI setup at the end of the spark plug itself and pump fuel straight through the plug. F1 engineers are freaking madmen
Another great video, it will be interesting to see if Mercedes can take this from the lab to the track, so many different variables to consider out in the open.
Could you make a video explaining the pros and cons about running rich and lean?
Totally agree. I was at the 94' Indy 500 when Penske's Mercedes' engines completely dominated the field...so much so they were banned.
The Honda Cvcc I Think also had a pre-chamber ignition type system. It was a little known difference that was responsible for Honda’s reputation for being so efficient.
Your videos never disappoint.
This reminds me a bit of how Mercedes had their prechamber setup with some of their indirect injection diesels
That is so cool. Basicly a mini flamethrower to ignite more fuel. Flame ignition😊
Love the explanation brah!
Great video. Never heard of it. Very interesting.