It's awesome that guys who may have given up on rugby because they were not making it in their country of birth, can go where they are needed more, hone their skills, earn a good living, and gain international recognition.
@@joneethling interNATIONAL. Clue's in the name... If you have absolutely no connection with a country other than being paid to be there, then you are nothing more than a mercenary. I don't blame the players for wanting to play at the highest level, I blame the rugby unions of those countries for dangling the carrot.
Very fairly put. Scotland aren't taking any more residency players than anyone else, people just move to England for work (waves from London), but also there are serious problems with the age grade programs. It's reflective of all that, some of it explicable and some of it the SRUs own failures. But yeah Redpath... that'd be a ridiculous argument.
I think there will always be a few English born/trained players in the Scotland side due to demographics. However, the SRU don't seem to care about pathways or growing the game in general. People think England players are posh, but in Scotland it always used to be even more of a public school game.
It’s such a polemic topic eh? There’s a lot of factors to consider. As a Scot, sadly the community game is very small still and the pathways are generally more accessible through posh schools than local schools, and some access via clubs. But also there is a lot to do with the amount of money in Scotland, as I believe now Scotland is the smallest spending union, with Italy upping their funding in 2022 if I’m correct (do correct me if I have that wrong). I’d love for more folks getting chances locally and that we had much better systems. It’s very sadly limited to wealthier areas (save for highland). However, in Scotland we’re very much a place of Scottish, emphasis on the ish. Lots of folks are related and moved where the work was or went away to travel. I have 4 different nationalities in my heritage and yet still Scottish 😂 (again, emphasis on the ish)
I think it's more the fact that when they left there was no way they were close to ousting the competition and still wouldn't at their peak of put head to head....in terms of lowe and aki you would've never selected them at the time over Nonu, Ben Smith, Conrad Smith, Crotty, dagg or Savea. Then when making the Irish squad they were given consistent selection along with Sexton to build a team of chemistry. The same can't be said for the all blacks post 2015 where Hansen and foster couldn't make up their mind about who to use in any jersey in the back line.
@@jlm0175 post 2015, there did seem to be a push to have ALB ahead of any other midfielders. Crotty, imo, did seem to get overlooked unjustly, although the injuries mounted up in 2018/19
There is a direct correlation between the recent increased success of the Scotland national team, and the reduction of actual Scots in the team. It’s been 4 years since a Scottish player was promoted from U20s to the senior side. Townsend has realised that Scottish players aren’t very good.
Why is Ronan O Gara a famous example? His parents are irish, Dad played rugby in ireland, his Dad happened to be doing a post grad in California when Ronan was born and moved back to ireland 6 months later!
The way I see it, you can allow player movement to a degree, and keep rugby competitive, or you can make sure people only play for the country they were born in, which means that only 3 or 4 countries will be competitive. If we choose the latter, the interest of 90% of rugby playing countries will be lost, those teams will drift away, rugby will fade away and the 3 or 4 remaining teams will be fighting it out to be king of the ashes. I also think the interesting fact mentioned about Scotland is that only four of the squad qualify on residency grounds, that’s a pretty small percentage, everyone else has Scottish heritage. Considering Scotland has fewer registered adult players than Kenya, it’s a wonder it’s not higher than four imported players.
@@thebiggt123 this is more about where players are trained, not so much where they’re born which people understand doesn’t necessarily mean someone’s raised there. I think your team should represent your country, and fans need to feel a connection to want to keep supporting their team. If it doesn’t feel representative, it changes things. I also don’t think it’s fair to unions with less funds for the players they train to wind up somewhere else, which depletes their resources. It’s a balance isn’t it.
I’m glad that the talk in Ireland that I saw wasn’t negative towards the players themselves that left us to play for Scotland and South Africa. The discussion was more that they weren’t getting picked for us anyway and that they should go make a name for themselves. Similar to the kiwis and Ozzie born/raised players that now play for Ireland. Kind of we poach so we can’t be mad when other countries poach.
Of course the Irish media wouldn't be negative a lot of your players stayed at their parents houses when they toured NZ. Do you consider Jean Kleyn leaving Ireland to play for SA as poaching?
@@Karma-qt4ji Ja, what the OP is saying is pretty revisionist. Just look at the outrage over Snyman’s move to Leinster after being let go from Munster as if it was some cardinal sin.
@@Karma-qt4ji we hadn’t been picking him for three years 😂 and while South Africa were originally against the flexibility of changing country, I don’t think it’s valid to call them out for taking back a player born and raised in South Africa
Meafou was looked at by the same NFL program that found Mailata. With Mailata and David Faalele wowing Americans with their size and agility, it would’ve been cool to see another Samoan-Australian continuing the pipeline
Great video! Would be great to know these stats for all the starters/subs of each team once the tournament is over. I think it will exaggerate Ireland, Scotland, and France's dependency on internationally sourced players.
True, however Ireland has college, u20, and top tier System that's paying off. When the foreign born players are not available, their absence is not critical.
I am Irish and we have about 5 southern hemisphere born players. I love these guys but I am uncomfortable with them being on our team, it just does not seem right. CJ Stander was on our team a few years ago, born in South Africa, and when he retired he went straight back to South Africa. I felt that he just used Ireland because South Africa did not choose him.
James Lowe was initially hesitant to play for Ireland at first, obviously he’s proved himself since then. That could be another interesting discussion, how many players turned down the chance to play for another country.
My understanding was he was one pick away from ab squad. Big personal call. Big thing I noticed is that foreign players seem delighted when they are playing for Ireland. Same for soccer. English players play their socks of for Ireland
The current italian squad counts 6 players born abroad with blood connection to Italy (Sebastian Negri, Stephen Varney, Ross Vintcent, Ignacio Brex, Ange Capuozzo, Martin Page-Relo), one player qualified through residency (Monty Ioane) and one born in Italy with a foreign formation (Tommaso Allan). Actually Marco Manfredi was born in Germany and his mother is german, but his father is italian and he was raised and formed in Italy, while Pietro Ceccarelli is half french (mother) but he was born, raised and formed in Italy. I think it is a good blend.
Italy u20 have been a force in the last 2 years. They win about half of their matches. The Uruguay loss was the only one that was a truly ignominious defeat. They did well to actually get a win over Wales.
Hello from Scotland! There are major problems with our youth development. At the RWC I think there were 19 Scots born players in the squad, 18 of whom had already played for Scotland at u20 or u18 level. Of those 18 players 12 had been educated at fee paying schools. Only 5% of people in Scotland go to fee paying schools. My point? Scottish youth development is focused far too narrowly. Young players outside fee paying schools aren’t given enough support, resources or opportunities. Before anyone says anything. I have no problem with people educated at fee paying schools or players qualifying on ancestry or residency grounds. If you want to play for Scotland that’s good enough for me. I just think that current SRU development policies aren’t very good.
I think major problem is that it is an expensive sport for a school to offer compared to soccer. I think the government should look at having state schools with support for rugby. Would be hard to get of the ground as kids don't have rugby as first choice if not from rugby family
In ireland immigrant players were brought in to strengthen provincial teams with the exception of james lowe. A big draw is that they get to develope in Ireland . You could argue most of them improved more in ireland than if they stayed at home.
I question the "produced at home" tag. One or two countries actively search to get foreign born talent into their academies at a young age. Like NZ with Samoa.
Wasn't there 8 foreign-born players at the World Cup . Frizzel Taukeiaho came through the Togan underage and played for the U 20s . Lomax came through the Australian system and played for the U20 . He had the heritage though through his Dad .
@@TwoCentsRugby mocking ? that doesn't get to the reality of why? just makes you look like a turd for the mocking and not really being interested in a topic you started, thanks for the let down.
For France Meafou is injured but was indeed called in the first list. It's true that the British Isles are so close geographically and culturaly that the birth factor seems irrelevent to this topic.
As an Irishman from Leinster, we have about 5 schools that funnel about 90% of players into the Interprovincial squad. If you come out of the schools infrastructure and don’t get a Leinster contract, your pretty much done and dusted.
Could move to another Irish province if they want to play rugby and are not getting a break. Even if you get into the Leinster set you could end up with no game time even if you are the second best Irish player, e.g. Madigan. There is even post Jonny quite a logjam at 10 with two Byrnes, Frawley and Prendergast unless three of them are in the Ireland camp. Munster also had this at but incredibly have let go three (Frawley, Hanrahan and Healy) soon to be four 10s and are down to three one of whom is in Ireland camp.
@@TwoCentsRugby think his grandfather from maternal line is (fully) italian, so his mother should be at least half italian and she could have a passport. Came to play in Italy at 18 I think (he did two complete under 20 cycle). Very similar to Varney with the difference that Vintcent was actually living in Italy (at FIR Academy) at the time of his stint with under 20 while Varney was living and playin in England at the club and was called up only for the under20 matches (as previously did both Negri, going there after SA, and Polledri), and that Varney should have played even some matches at under18 lvl (but I may be wrong). Ioane only residency qualified. Then we have a player born abroad like Manfredi (Germany, from italian father and german mother) or Ceccarelli (mother is french) but born in Italy and played in Italy as a youth. In the next years I think we'll see more players of african descent, cause of immigration, although it will be a slow affair as football is much more attractive (already now Izekor is in the squad, and Odiase will probably be inthe next years, and we already played Traore and other were close to get a cap as Appiah).Then there is the occacional dual citizen (think Francois Carlo Mey, born in Italy to Saffa player but grown here and now playing in Clermont). There could be in the future Jadin Kingi (son of kiwi player Dion) he was called and played for under23 NT, don't know how he qualifies and if he qualifies, but probably is due to the fact that he played in Italy as a little child when his father was here.
One thing you dont touch, which i understand, is genetics. For example, the islanders and South Africans who just genetically bigger in size are sought after and brought into countries even well before birth. Ie. Family generations imported because of size and family histories of playing the game. The Tuilagis, the Vunipolas etc. France, England and Scotland take advantage of this more than others. We are seeing how Ireland lack a squad size and weight because the country is genetically less diverse and irish people are generally smaller in size, a bit like Argentina. Size matters in Rugby. No coincidence that SA wins world cup when they have huge humans with african and dutch genes! Massive peoples!
This analysis is total nonsense. Calling a person foreign born when you were Scottish but raised in other parts of the UK is ridiculous. It doesnt make you no longer a scot. Its also biased becaause scot only 2 teams so of course many would need to play "abroad" in the UK. Which is their sovereign country.
I don’t really care where players are born. I care more about which system they came through. I don’t like residency. I think it should be 10 years to qualify if the players are over 18 when they moved but remain at 5 if they were younger than 18. This article should be a wake up call for the SRU to sort out their player pathway though. This WC cycle is the last throw of the dice for much of their squad
I can only speak about Ireland here the history is simple the first capped Irish player foreign player was Brian Smith in 1991 not that long ago, now he had a grandmother who went to Australia, now outside of Ireland can include the diaspora which is so mixed really, you have England, Scotland and Wales qualified and in Ireland there's a further complicated situation the political one ...a landmine, there is something that people need to understand here ,there are thousands of Kiwis living and working and emigration to Ireland for work, even more so from South Africa with a very large Saffa population working and living in Ireland...in Technology and Pharmaceutical industry, some get into The EU/Ireland on rugby coaching qualification, yes they might join the hurling club in Galway but they are more likely to join the rugby club, your point is correct Gibson Park, Aki,Lowe and others are better ,Christian Cullen and Dougie Howlett are loved here Dougie played hurling for his local club and as you would expect he was dam good at it ...anything that spreads the rugby gospel is good for the game...yes complaints come up only when the team complaning are in a slump, the old Fr Ted comment, there over here taking our jobs and our women ...this is a storm in a teacup, making young Irish people have emigrated to Australia/New Zealand you will see Irish qualified rugby, cricket, football ect in All Blacks jumpers after all where did John Gallagher come from....Co Donegal...the wheel of history never stands still 😅.
Happy with. Handful of foreign born to improve our game as long as they don't squeeze out the locals. Not happening Ireland as player numbers is small and more players are always welcome. Interesting France had heated issue with foreign born players a few years ago. They restricted numbers and the number of quality locals improved. However there teams across all divisions were being swamped at the time.
I'd rather Scotland pick up English players and be competitive than stick to only home grown talent and not be. Longer term they're going to have to improve their own development programs like Ireland did but this is a reasonable stop gap measure. In my experience English people feel far more "British" than the other home nations (Scotland and Wales specifically) and are happy to play for the other home nations. Most Welshmen and Scots wouldn't be caught dead playing for England!
@@somersetfan1 I get that completely. I'm the same for Wales. Half my family is Welsh, half is English and I live in England nearer to Cardiff than London so that is my default rugby ground for internationals. Plus the tickets are cheaper and the atmosphere is better! If I played for Wales though (however unlikely, don't laugh) since the Welsh side of my family moved to England I would probably qualify through grandparents and be viewed as a foreign born and developed player (rightly).
Alot of those are left overs from when it was 3yrs to eligibility, one of the only things WR done well lately was increasing the time frame. We are seeing the end of the project players era. Personally I don't like the grandparents rule, parents should be the cut off imo.
Interesting fact.... when Covid hit, WR decided to postpone the 5 year increase for a bit, and almost immediately, JGP, James Lowe, Jaco van der Walt, Duhan van der Merwe, Oli Kebble and Pierre Schoeman were capped. All qualified under the 3 year but none under the 5. It was so blatantly obvious what Scotland and Ireland were doing.
There were the two considerations, those who qualify through residency, which should be citizenship, and those who qualify through family. You might be born in New Zealand, but have an English mother so you are equally eligible for both countries on your parental basis etc. The changes made have muddied a fairly uncomplicated situation into one where anyone can play for any country, which when considered in the light of day is just like transfers. Are we sure this is helping rugby?
@silversolver7809 well if that is someone's opinion, then they are entitled to it. My reply would be that a national team isn't like a club team, or there is no point in calling them the nations teams which play international games. To have anyone playing for any nation is by definition not representative of the nation, and the basis of international matches is lost.
This seems like a massive exaggeration. Anyone definitely can't play for anyone. The rule changes were primarily about players returning to their countries of birth, and only if they've been absent from international rugby for 3 years.
@truthbetold8233 Well, if you work through the various permutations you will find that with time anyone can play for any country. Parents and grandparents give you eligibility. After the qualifying period, residence/citizenship will give you eligibility. And a period of three years after you've last played for a country means you can switch to the country of your birth or whatever the rules are. Seems to me that's pretty much close to anyone can play for any country, as long as you are prepared to wait a few years.
For this, does the likes of Andy Christie count as "home grown"? He played Scotland U16, but then because he came through the Saracens academy he wasnt really given any choice other than England for U18/20. However, hes spoken during the week about how he only ever wanted to represent Scotland. The problem with these lists is that with almost every player, if you look into their story, you find things like that. Even residency players have some reason to stay in that country, to represent that nation.
@@magnuspeacock5857 training with an international team a few dozen times is hardly the same as the year in, year playing and training he did at school and for his junior club.
Jenkins came through the welsh system but left for uni. It’s the same as underhill and dombrandt although he never played pro rugby in wales I don’t think
Would you say you agree with all the above because N.Z have been taking all the best talent from Fiji, Samoa and Tonga for decades to play for N.Z......Hence why N.Z have dominated for so long. Now things are changing though.....
I mean if you check NZ's record on imported players - 100% no. If anything there would be no Samoan or Tongan sides without all the NZ born players. That being said there are a handful who rep NZ who were products of other systems
Have you watched Pacific Warriors Documentary about N.Z going over to the neighboring islands and recruiting the best talent from Samoa at young ages. Now Japan are doing the same. Watch oceans apart too.
@@ShanePienaarEdge Huge difference between taking a chance on a kid, bearing the cost of schooling and academies and immigration in the hope that one day he might actually be good enough or strong enough or fast enough or even want to play rugby... versus buying an established professional rugby player with a known track record.
This is a mine field that many refuse to cross, so full marks for giving it a go and remaining free of banter, bias or bs. You are entering the nature - nurture debate, a false dichotomy as neither can exist without each other, and the idea of nationhood, whatever that means to people. Often people will not bat an eyelid so long as the surname sounds about right to the region, but call foul if it sounds foreign, forgetting that genes can be passed from the female! There are a lot of people of Scottish descent , for example, living elsewhere, that consider themselves to be Scottish, there will be players that through residency have developed an attachment to the area and as you said have taken their game to another level. My only sadness is that I can no longer with honesty and decency ask an English fan whether a player from the Staffordshire or Glocestershire Vunipolas
One important thing you didn’t mention: to play for France you need a French passport (only country where that’s the case in Six Nations, and even all Tier 1 teams I think)
Yeah mate I think South Africa has the same thing, but yeah that's an extra requirement they've got. Like the English have for only picking guys playing in the Premiership - extra requirement
@@TwoCentsRugby that used to be the case, but it seems that was an added condition that had no actual grounding in the rules (that's the French for you), and it's been clarified when the case of Posolo Tuilagi came up, since he doesn't have a French passport but was deemed eligible this year, even though he didn't get called in the end. (and that sentense is way too long and convoluted, my bad)
One point here though, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have the same British passport. So whilst they could require a British Passport, they could not require a specific country passport.
Not a fan of the residency thing. A naturalised citizen, all good. Very different. It just seems crazy that someone like Quade Cooper isn't a citizen of Australia yet played for them for years. And Oz continues to deny him citizenship
I agree that it's rough that the Oz govt treated him that way. Last I saw was they rejected his application again. I just think it's cynical of international sport in general, not just rugby, to grant a player a jersey simply because they live somewhere. Guess I'm alone in that judging by the zero thumbs up
I can understand why teams like italy,scotland,wales,japan but theres no reason england, ireland and france have no excuse to have foreigners they have enough talent
@@kingpower4631 when you say foreigners. Guessing foreign trained and then it often comes to players on whether they believe they will be called up by their nation of development when that nation is also top tier. If it's a smaller nation that developed them then it will be because they believe it's a better opportunity for themselves, regardless of impact on their national team.
@@normalconversation Yeah but some countries don't need foreigners soo why take them you forget they offer theseoverseas players to come not the way around
The only stat I'm interested in is the imported fir Rugby purposes. Nations like Italy could actually do with a couple of talented imports but France Ireland and so on have the pick of the bunch.
"Ireland … have the pick of the bunch" I'm fairly sure England and France have the pick, since their funding far outstrips everyone else. Leinster have good funding in Ireland, but the other 3 clubs don't-eg Munster can't afford to keep RG Snyman whereas Leinster can snap him up despite already having James Ryan, Ryan Baird, Jason Jenkins, Joe McCarthy and Ross Molony… tho maybe 1-2 of those are moving on? Players choose to move to other countries for many reasons-in many careers it's seen as a necessary part of one's development. And of course pro rugby is a profession, just like engineering or cooking are. Here in USA we import oodles of tech people from India, yet nobody questions the 'Americanness' of our tech companies.
FIR imported no one if not Brex, that is the only one that is not a direct product of the academies or U18-20. All other players like Izekor, Vintcent, Capuozzo, Negri, started as childs or adolescents to playing and training in Italy. Saying that just to give a real point of view about players.
@@silversolver7809This the same Munster who had five fly halves on the books when they wangled Carbery from Leinster while Connacht had zero fit fly halves and Ulster had just lost Jackson? That Munster? The same Munster who kept Snyman on their books for 4 years even though he was injured the whole time? The same Munster who had Dougie Howlett? And Christian Cullen? And Jean de Villiers? Poor old Munster 😂
also, as expected, an America Rugby News article with an agenda... Notice it's important to note that players in the Scotland squad that have played for England U20s, but why does it not say that Ali Price played for Scotland U20s - he's been part of the Exiles program, and then the Scottish Rugby Academy and has played pretty much his entire professional career in Scotland.
I think that column is "other rep." - so only includes teams not the same as the test team represented. Some of the Italian guys also played U20s for Italy but it's not written up, George North for Wales U20s etc
@@TwoCentsRugby I get that, but i think there's a distinction between, say Ali Price or Rory Hutchison who has played age grade for Scotland and Ben White who played age grade for England. Also, what some people don't realise is that for EQP if you are in one of the Premiership academies, if the England U20s want to play you, you don't have a choice - refuse and you're out the academy. These guys are playing age grade for England for the sake of their overall future in rugby, never mind international ambitions.
England could make another team of English born players playing for different nations. Scotland😂 a quarter r English & more than half overall not born in Scotland, embarressing!!
Mack hansen is as irish as cheese n onion tatyo crisps Bundi aki is as irish as a bottle of buckfast down at the Spanish arch Jameson gibson park is as irish as a 1am mugging in temple bar - his name is jameson for christ sake! James lowe is as irish as an emergency hot chicken roll. All these people are irish, just ask them.
And every single one of them will piss off back to New Zealand as soon as they hang up their boots, thereby proving the lie you tell yourselves, much like CJ Stander did. The day SA met Ireland in the RWC, CJ was at home, in South Africa, with his Springbok swimmer brother-in-law, and shouting for the Boks.
Drove through castlemartyr prior to 2023 world cup and the best wishes from that town signage were big for mack hanson wishing him the best, why would that town do it unless macks cork born mother was from there
Je vais essayer de rester courtois, ainsi que ça m’est demandé. C’est des problèmes de fascistes! « Blood related » va te faire. La dernière fois que j’ai vu ça, c’était les argentins pour la finale de foot qui étaient tous devenus généalogistes. Pour un pays sous perfusion du fmi, c’était bien de constater qu’ils travaillaient enfin. Vu leurs résultats, pas bien, mais c’était bien d’essayer de travailler. Donc des mecs qui quittent leurs pays, montrent qu’ils sont bons sont accueillis plus ou moins bien , sont des mercenaires? Des mecs qui vivent depuis 5-10-15 ans dans ce nouveau pays où ils ne connaissaient pas la langue ? Fasciste.
Hats off to the Rugby mercenaries. They have gained fame and secured their futures. Their only problem is that playing in Northern Hemisphere teams, they are unlikely to ever lift a World Cup. 😋
@@x-latetv-x6816 By buying players from other nations to exploit the eligibility laws. Law 8 defines "residence" as "place of primary and permanent home". So how then can someone go out and prove that to be the case, and a few weeks of getting his first cap, move to a new country and still be eligible to play for the one he just left and needs a visa to play in? that was Duhan van der Merwe moving to Worcester shortly after playing his first game for Scotland.
The welsh people you were talking to were telling you lies- otherwise every english born player in wales' squads would be born to two welsh parents in border counties- which is categorically false.
With Respect to Scotland and Ireland I personally think they are taking the idea of foreign players to extremes and it should not be allowed, there used to be a cap on how many foreign players you could use, I think that would be fair. I don't even mind if its a sliding scale based on player numbers available for example England has 450k Wales had 40k etc. for example - Scotland is not a Scottish team, and to say its anything but cheating would be disingenuous. The point of international rugby is to pit players FROM a country against another. IF their grass roots is not good then that should rightfully reflect in the team and this would also FORCE them to invest in the grassroots game which would be better for Scotland than poaching from abroad. Just to put it into perspective, if I was seriously loaded I could easily tempt the best players from around the world to play for my regions and through residency have them play for my country, that wouldn't be right in my opinion
@@davineames Why is 20% of your starting lineup who scored 43% of your tries in the RWC and took 75% of your Man of the Match awards not startling to you? Why is "only 3" even uttered without shame? You play against teams who have enough national pride to select ONLY players who are citizens of their nation or at the very least, legitimate immigrants, and you buy the win against them. Argentina proved that they can demolish your team, but will they ever be able to demolish your cheque book? How about Fiji, or Samoa or any of a number of smaller nations with very little cash who can no longer compete against you because the Pound is strong? And you're not even ashamed of that?
Weird how the small minority of foreign Six Nations players end up being some of the best players for each respective nation. Duhan, Lowe, Aki, etc. and that’s a pattern that has repeated over the years.
Scotland, with a tiny playing population (10% of the size of ENG and IRE for example) have only 4 residency players. The rest is just representative of the Scottish diaspora. The youth scheme needs support for sure ( although I see 7 or 8 great prospects at Glasgow alone ) but the fact they can more than compete with much larger playing populations is remarkable. Many folk object to the diaspora thing, and put in silly rules like only playing in home leagues, etc, but two things come to mind when I hear that: - those who have those exclusion rules tend to reflect the political/social attitudes in those countries, eg, Scotland is far more inclusive than England will ever be. - if I were born anywhere in the world, to parents from Scotland, there is only one country that I would want to play for. I get the grandparent thing, and agree it sometimes stretches things a wee bit, but when you see pictures of a young Sione Tuipulotu with his Scottish grannie, embracing the culture from a very young age, then why not? Regardless of all that, the best tournament in the world is just days away. Good luck to all the teams and players regardless of background, and looking forward to meeting up with old friends for a drink and a chat.
Scotland has a population of 5.4 million and Ireland have a population of 5.03 million. Where did you Scotland only has 10% of the population of Ireland ?
I am not so sure about the future of Scottish Rugby. Their U20 lost to Uruguay in the last U20 Trophy (the second-tier competition for U20 teams) and failed to be promoted to the Top Tier. Nw they have to qualify for the next Trophy with trips to Germany and Portugal. In 2022 they lost by 40 or 50 points to Georgia. They have a lot of English players with Scottish parents or grandparents but they are the product of the English rugby system. On the long term they have a problem. I think, however, that, if a player has the passport of a given country, then he can represent it. No question about it. But residency players are a disgrace. It is a non-sense. Why people like Ioane should be playing for Italy or Van der Merwe for Scotland, or Lowe for Ireland? I think it's just a way to "keep competitive" certain teams.
The problem with your stance is that the UK is a country, so someone born in Scotland has the same passport as someone born in Wales. They are all British, so nobody with that passport is foreign in any of the constituent countries. Someone being born in Ireland, but playing for England, or any combination of the 4 Home Nations is not the same as someone from NZ playing for France.
@@kropotkine9640 Yes. I'm South African and we suck at the Olympics. So we should just go out and buy leftover Americans and Russians so we can get more medals? Shame, those poor athletes who failed to make the US and Russian Olympics teams! We should give them a chance..... I've said it before and I'll say it again. InterNATIONAL. Between nations. Not between nations cheque books. Because the day some wealthy middle eastern state becomes overly interested in rugby as they did in golf, and suddenly the UAE is number one ranked team in the world because who would say no to big bucks and living in Dubai, your opinion will change rapidly.
Yeah im against this now, tuilangi playing for france is non sensical. Each club should pick the people from their country or people with a very close familial relation. Other countries shouldn't be poaching players who have no cultural links with them from their nations of birth for university degrees/money.
France didn't poached him!!! Tuilagi was born in Samoa but at the age of 4 he followed his father to England and at the age of 6 he arrived in France when his father came to play for USAP (Perpignan). This sam year he played rugby for the first time with the USAP and, 13 years later, he still plays for this club at the professional level. With the exception of nursery school he did all his schooling in France. He certainly has more cultural links with France than with Samoa.
Samoa and Tonga most players are NZers and Aussies, hopeless nations cant develop there own 💀 Yet there flag waving, car sirens at 3am sounding fans love to think NZ and Aus 'poach' there players Gtfoh
Yet every New Zealander moves to Sydney or Melbourne for a better life. Go figure. Ye pretty much have the same flag anyways, so don't worry about that.They are your big brothers 😉
I don't care. We beat England with English born and raised players...I don't care. Winning is all that counts. Look international Rugby is a professional business that is about making money and little else. It wraps itself up in National, flags, history and culture, only to get more money off supporters and the taxpayer. The WRU, RFU, SRFU, IRU would put it all behind a paywall, to the exclusion of most supporters tomorrow if it thought it could make more cash.
@@alexhiscock3122wtf? We have won many grand slams and championships, and the Sevens world cup. Been to many many world cup semi and quarter finals. Pretty good for a nation of 3 million. What a utterrly meaningless and bizarre question.
@@Karma-qt4jiI don't understand the anger. I am just explaining how meaningless it is, and why international rugby isn't a reflection on anything, particularly national loyalty... So who cares who actually plays.
@mixodorians12 the people who have the pride to want to represent their country. And the people from that country who support the team. Look how the Portuguese team reacted when they beat Fiji and tell me no national pride is involved. Yet Portugal will never be able to compete with countries who should be beatable but buy better players because they have a bigger budget.
Emmanuel Meafou was a wandering soul in the world of rugby, France gave him an opportunity. It's crazy to see how fast he became fluent in french
You’re hardly a wandering soul at 21 😂
Great work with this mate. Bringing a bit of sanity and calmness to something that gets people very "overexcited" 😂
Lol yeah it doesn't have to be dramatic I guess 😂
It's awesome that guys who may have given up on rugby because they were not making it in their country of birth, can go where they are needed more, hone their skills, earn a good living, and gain international recognition.
No it isn't. Stop confusing club rugby with international rugby.
facts indeed at the end they cant win worldcups only the countires with homegrown players win it@@Karma-qt4ji
@@Karma-qt4ji Maybe you're confusing the blight of nationalism with Rugby?
@@joneethlingnationalism 😂😂 what wanting actual people raised in this country to represent you is nationalistic now 😂😂
@@joneethling interNATIONAL. Clue's in the name...
If you have absolutely no connection with a country other than being paid to be there, then you are nothing more than a mercenary. I don't blame the players for wanting to play at the highest level, I blame the rugby unions of those countries for dangling the carrot.
Very fairly put. Scotland aren't taking any more residency players than anyone else, people just move to England for work (waves from London), but also there are serious problems with the age grade programs. It's reflective of all that, some of it explicable and some of it the SRUs own failures.
But yeah Redpath... that'd be a ridiculous argument.
I think there will always be a few English born/trained players in the Scotland side due to demographics. However, the SRU don't seem to care about pathways or growing the game in general. People think England players are posh, but in Scotland it always used to be even more of a public school game.
Hopefully that will change with Dodson on the way out. But I'm not hopeful.
Yeah I always joked that the England u20s is the Scotland B team - which is funny now that Scotland first team pump our team in the 6Ns.
@@mlguy8376the Scots only win games against England by small margins.
It’s such a polemic topic eh? There’s a lot of factors to consider. As a Scot, sadly the community game is very small still and the pathways are generally more accessible through posh schools than local schools, and some access via clubs. But also there is a lot to do with the amount of money in Scotland, as I believe now Scotland is the smallest spending union, with Italy upping their funding in 2022 if I’m correct (do correct me if I have that wrong). I’d love for more folks getting chances locally and that we had much better systems. It’s very sadly limited to wealthier areas (save for highland). However, in Scotland we’re very much a place of Scottish, emphasis on the ish. Lots of folks are related and moved where the work was or went away to travel. I have 4 different nationalities in my heritage and yet still Scottish 😂 (again, emphasis on the ish)
None of those Irish kiwis would have been selected for the Abs. Aki was the 12 of the rwc last year I thought
100% man, all are much better players now than when they left
@TwoCentsRugby agreed, and am very interested in the how and why they got so much better.
I think coaching/direction - they were all getting game time for their Super Rugby teams before they left
I think it's more the fact that when they left there was no way they were close to ousting the competition and still wouldn't at their peak of put head to head....in terms of lowe and aki you would've never selected them at the time over Nonu, Ben Smith, Conrad Smith, Crotty, dagg or Savea. Then when making the Irish squad they were given consistent selection along with Sexton to build a team of chemistry. The same can't be said for the all blacks post 2015 where Hansen and foster couldn't make up their mind about who to use in any jersey in the back line.
@@jlm0175 post 2015, there did seem to be a push to have ALB ahead of any other midfielders. Crotty, imo, did seem to get overlooked unjustly, although the injuries mounted up in 2018/19
There is a direct correlation between the recent increased success of the Scotland national team, and the reduction of actual Scots in the team.
It’s been 4 years since a Scottish player was promoted from U20s to the senior side. Townsend has realised that Scottish players aren’t very good.
Why is Ronan O Gara a famous example? His parents are irish, Dad played rugby in ireland, his Dad happened to be doing a post grad in California when Ronan was born and moved back to ireland 6 months later!
Because he is a yank😂
Always find these videos really interesting. Scotland… that’s a lot of foreign trained players.
Yeah I find the data interesting as well - especially as there are a few stereotypes out there on the topic
The way I see it, you can allow player movement to a degree, and keep rugby competitive, or you can make sure people only play for the country they were born in, which means that only 3 or 4 countries will be competitive.
If we choose the latter, the interest of 90% of rugby playing countries will be lost, those teams will drift away, rugby will fade away and the 3 or 4 remaining teams will be fighting it out to be king of the ashes.
I also think the interesting fact mentioned about Scotland is that only four of the squad qualify on residency grounds, that’s a pretty small percentage, everyone else has Scottish heritage. Considering Scotland has fewer registered adult players than Kenya, it’s a wonder it’s not higher than four imported players.
@@TwoCentsRugby there certainly is!
Scotland have 2 pro clubs. Probably a player pool of about 100 pro players.
@@thebiggt123 this is more about where players are trained, not so much where they’re born which people understand doesn’t necessarily mean someone’s raised there. I think your team should represent your country, and fans need to feel a connection to want to keep supporting their team. If it doesn’t feel representative, it changes things. I also don’t think it’s fair to unions with less funds for the players they train to wind up somewhere else, which depletes their resources. It’s a balance isn’t it.
Well laid out with Pie Charts so everyone can understand! The Scots simply ask - Can you wear the Kilt?
The rules are changing and becoming five years residence before allowed to pkay for national team. Thats a big commitment if that is your only goal.
I’m glad that the talk in Ireland that I saw wasn’t negative towards the players themselves that left us to play for Scotland and South Africa. The discussion was more that they weren’t getting picked for us anyway and that they should go make a name for themselves. Similar to the kiwis and Ozzie born/raised players that now play for Ireland. Kind of we poach so we can’t be mad when other countries poach.
Of course the Irish media wouldn't be negative a lot of your players stayed at their parents houses when they toured NZ. Do you consider Jean Kleyn leaving Ireland to play for SA as poaching?
@@howzit3724 One Irish media outlet called the Jean Kleyn incident "breathtaking in its cynicism" and accused SA of exploiting the eligibility laws.
@@Karma-qt4ji Ja, what the OP is saying is pretty revisionist. Just look at the outrage over Snyman’s move to Leinster after being let go from Munster as if it was some cardinal sin.
@@Karma-qt4ji I am sure the Rugby people (players and fans) were OK with it. The press make up nonsense to be relevant.
@@Karma-qt4ji we hadn’t been picking him for three years 😂 and while South Africa were originally against the flexibility of changing country, I don’t think it’s valid to call them out for taking back a player born and raised in South Africa
Meafou was looked at by the same NFL program that found Mailata. With Mailata and David Faalele wowing Americans with their size and agility, it would’ve been cool to see another Samoan-Australian continuing the pipeline
I would be interested to see how many players from the southern hemisphere teams play in europe and vice versa.
Great video!
Would be great to know these stats for all the starters/subs of each team once the tournament is over. I think it will exaggerate Ireland, Scotland, and France's dependency on internationally sourced players.
and then show which countries have youth programs/schools and funding
Do you mean by including a multiplier for minutes played?
True, however Ireland has college, u20, and top tier System that's paying off.
When the foreign born players are not available, their absence is not critical.
I believe Gibson-Park got his Irish citizenship recently. 99% certain I read that somewhere. Great video my man, as always! COYBIG :)
He’ll do a CJ Stander and leave when his irish career is done
@@jakeclough8090 They all will, as will all the ScotBoks.
Why should he stay, his heritage is nz
@@jakeclough8090thats ok, do you want to jail him in ireland so he dies in an irish nursing home😂
@@x-latetv-x6816 shows he doesn’t care about ireland starting a new life there, he’s just a rugby mercenary
I am Irish and we have about 5 southern hemisphere born players. I love these guys but I am uncomfortable with them being on our team, it just does not seem right. CJ Stander was on our team a few years ago, born in South Africa, and when he retired he went straight back to South Africa. I felt that he just used Ireland because South Africa did not choose him.
Do you expect him to turn his back on his family in south Africa 🤷
James Lowe was initially hesitant to play for Ireland at first, obviously he’s proved himself since then. That could be another interesting discussion, how many players turned down the chance to play for another country.
Shaun Stevenson is a potential "Irishman."
My understanding was he was one pick away from ab squad.
Big personal call.
Big thing I noticed is that foreign players seem delighted when they are playing for Ireland.
Same for soccer. English players play their socks of for Ireland
How Lowe can you go. It's only a pity he plays for leister.
The current italian squad counts 6 players born abroad with blood connection to Italy (Sebastian Negri, Stephen Varney, Ross Vintcent, Ignacio Brex, Ange Capuozzo, Martin Page-Relo), one player qualified through residency (Monty Ioane) and one born in Italy with a foreign formation (Tommaso Allan). Actually Marco Manfredi was born in Germany and his mother is german, but his father is italian and he was raised and formed in Italy, while Pietro Ceccarelli is half french (mother) but he was born, raised and formed in Italy. I think it is a good blend.
Monty is great! Is he related to Rieko?
@@nepiahemopo1702 I don't think Monty is related to Rieko, but he is related to Digby Ioane, he is his uncle
@@michelefavaretto627 Thank you.
@@nepiahemopo1702 Welcome!
@@michelefavaretto627 eloquence wins the day.
Scotland's U20 side losing to Italy and Uruguay in the last year explains why they look at residency and a player's grandparents.
And Scotland spending all their money on foreigners explains why their U20's can't even play in the first tier competition.
Italy u20 have been a force in the last 2 years. They win about half of their matches. The Uruguay loss was the only one that was a truly ignominious defeat. They did well to actually get a win over Wales.
@@Cian097 Scotland U20 do not even qualify to play in the top tier "RWC" so the occasional win for them is not that impressive.
@@Karma-qt4ji it's worse than that, they don't even qualify for the trophy
Hello from Scotland!
There are major problems with our youth development. At the RWC I think there were 19 Scots born players in the squad, 18 of whom had already played for Scotland at u20 or u18 level. Of those 18 players 12 had been educated at fee paying schools.
Only 5% of people in Scotland go to fee paying schools.
My point? Scottish youth development is focused far too narrowly. Young players outside fee paying schools aren’t given enough support, resources or opportunities.
Before anyone says anything. I have no problem with people educated at fee paying schools or players qualifying on ancestry or residency grounds. If you want to play for Scotland that’s good enough for me. I just think that current SRU development policies aren’t very good.
Right mate likewise I see genuine connections for the Scottish squad, but likewise I think they could be doing a better job of nurturing local talent
I think major problem is that it is an expensive sport for a school to offer compared to soccer.
I think the government should look at having state schools with support for rugby.
Would be hard to get of the ground as kids don't have rugby as first choice if not from rugby family
Great video. Love these ones
In ireland immigrant players were brought in to strengthen provincial teams with the exception of james lowe.
A big draw is that they get to develope in Ireland . You could argue most of them improved more in ireland than if they stayed at home.
maybe try looking into players from migration over the last 200 years, surnames etc ... if you want to be interesting
I question the "produced at home" tag. One or two countries actively search to get foreign born talent into their academies at a young age. Like NZ with Samoa.
Nonsense. OK, there may exist scholarships but by and large NZ is home for most of our Pacific Island Nations. By that I mean, they were born in NZ.
Wasn't there 8 foreign-born players at the World Cup . Frizzel Taukeiaho came through the Togan underage and played for the U 20s . Lomax came through the Australian system and played for the U20 . He had the heritage though through his Dad .
@@Corrie-fs5wp don't forget Aki.
( By what I mean , they were born in NZ) Who are you quoting this nonsense to ? Who is going to swallow it ?
It would be helpful to link the stats to countries that have youth programs/schools and the size of the programs/schools per capita
Might have to get that data from 'ol Billy B
@@TwoCentsRugby mocking ? that doesn't get to the reality of why? just makes you look like a turd for the mocking and not really being interested in a topic you started, thanks for the let down.
@@TwoCentsRugby mocking? thought you were into a real discussion? never mind
For France Meafou is injured but was indeed called in the first list.
It's true that the British Isles are so close geographically and culturaly that the birth factor seems irrelevent to this topic.
As an Irishman from Leinster, we have about 5 schools that funnel about 90% of players into the Interprovincial squad. If you come out of the schools infrastructure and don’t get a Leinster contract, your pretty much done and dusted.
Could move to another Irish province if they want to play rugby and are not getting a break. Even if you get into the Leinster set you could end up with no game time even if you are the second best Irish player, e.g. Madigan. There is even post Jonny quite a logjam at 10 with two Byrnes, Frawley and Prendergast unless three of them are in the Ireland camp. Munster also had this at but incredibly have let go three (Frawley, Hanrahan and Healy) soon to be four 10s and are down to three one of whom is in Ireland camp.
Is one gonzaga?
just to correct you. Ross Vintcent learned his trade in Italy Though born in SA mother Italian thus he is and he went through the Italian academy
Yeah I think it has UAE cos he went to high school there? I'm not 100% to be honest
@@TwoCentsRugby Also he was interviewed by Fratelli D'Rugby and it is his mother is Italian not a grandfather
Is it possible his mother is Italian South African? I read another article that said it was through a Sicilian grandparent that he qualified is all
@@TwoCentsRugby think his grandfather from maternal line is (fully) italian, so his mother should be at least half italian and she could have a passport. Came to play in Italy at 18 I think (he did two complete under 20 cycle). Very similar to Varney with the difference that Vintcent was actually living in Italy (at FIR Academy) at the time of his stint with under 20 while Varney was living and playin in England at the club and was called up only for the under20 matches (as previously did both Negri, going there after SA, and Polledri), and that Varney should have played even some matches at under18 lvl (but I may be wrong). Ioane only residency qualified. Then we have a player born abroad like Manfredi (Germany, from italian father and german mother) or Ceccarelli (mother is french) but born in Italy and played in Italy as a youth. In the next years I think we'll see more players of african descent, cause of immigration, although it will be a slow affair as football is much more attractive (already now Izekor is in the squad, and Odiase will probably be inthe next years, and we already played Traore and other were close to get a cap as Appiah).Then there is the occacional dual citizen (think Francois Carlo Mey, born in Italy to Saffa player but grown here and now playing in Clermont). There could be in the future Jadin Kingi (son of kiwi player Dion) he was called and played for under23 NT, don't know how he qualifies and if he qualifies, but probably is due to the fact that he played in Italy as a little child when his father was here.
It's not about where you were born, it's about where you lived age 5-16
Scots born players are a minority in the Scotland squad. Has that ever happened before?
One thing you dont touch, which i understand, is genetics. For example, the islanders and South Africans who just genetically bigger in size are sought after and brought into countries even well before birth. Ie. Family generations imported because of size and family histories of playing the game. The Tuilagis, the Vunipolas etc.
France, England and Scotland take advantage of this more than others.
We are seeing how Ireland lack a squad size and weight because the country is genetically less diverse and irish people are generally smaller in size, a bit like Argentina. Size matters in Rugby. No coincidence that SA wins world cup when they have huge humans with african and dutch genes! Massive peoples!
you can hardly say that the Vunipolas were imported. They moved there when they were 4 or 5 years old. Who even knew if they would play rugby?
What about race? For example, the quota system has delivered wonders for SA.😂
This analysis is total nonsense. Calling a person foreign born when you were Scottish but raised in other parts of the UK is ridiculous. It doesnt make you no longer a scot. Its also biased becaause scot only 2 teams so of course many would need to play "abroad" in the UK. Which is their sovereign country.
He does mention your criticism prior to mentioning any players at 1:00. Calling this analysis nonsense seems a bit unnecessary.
I don’t really care where players are born. I care more about which system they came through. I don’t like residency. I think it should be 10 years to qualify if the players are over 18 when they moved but remain at 5 if they were younger than 18. This article should be a wake up call for the SRU to sort out their player pathway though. This WC cycle is the last throw of the dice for much of their squad
Ancestry? Shane Howarth comes to mind. AB and Welsh international.
Mick Hansen wasnt one the list for Ireland. But he was born in Australia
He mentioned it in the video. This for the 6 nation squad. Hansen is injured so won't be playing.
I suppose we should call him mick instead of mack since his mother is from castlemartyr
I can only speak about Ireland here the history is simple the first capped Irish player foreign player was Brian Smith in 1991 not that long ago, now he had a grandmother who went to Australia, now outside of Ireland can include the diaspora which is so mixed really, you have England, Scotland and Wales qualified and in Ireland there's a further complicated situation the political one ...a landmine, there is something that people need to understand here ,there are thousands of Kiwis living and working and emigration to Ireland for work, even more so from South Africa with a very large Saffa population working and living in Ireland...in Technology and Pharmaceutical industry, some get into The EU/Ireland on rugby coaching qualification, yes they might join the hurling club in Galway but they are more likely to join the rugby club, your point is correct Gibson Park, Aki,Lowe and others are better ,Christian Cullen and Dougie Howlett are loved here Dougie played hurling for his local club and as you would expect he was dam good at it ...anything that spreads the rugby gospel is good for the game...yes complaints come up only when the team complaning are in a slump, the old Fr Ted comment, there over here taking our jobs and our women ...this is a storm in a teacup, making young Irish people have emigrated to Australia/New Zealand you will see Irish qualified rugby, cricket, football ect in All Blacks jumpers after all where did John Gallagher come from....Co Donegal...the wheel of history never stands still 😅.
Well said.
Happy with. Handful of foreign born to improve our game as long as they don't squeeze out the locals.
Not happening Ireland as player numbers is small and more players are always welcome.
Interesting France had heated issue with foreign born players a few years ago. They restricted numbers and the number of quality locals improved. However there teams across all divisions were being swamped at the time.
What !Ronan OGara wasnt born in Ireland 🇮🇪 ???
San Diego
Can we do NZ next
Did it at the RWC ;)
NZ not in the 6nations. 😅
I'd rather Scotland pick up English players and be competitive than stick to only home grown talent and not be. Longer term they're going to have to improve their own development programs like Ireland did but this is a reasonable stop gap measure.
In my experience English people feel far more "British" than the other home nations (Scotland and Wales specifically) and are happy to play for the other home nations. Most Welshmen and Scots wouldn't be caught dead playing for England!
Often for players from the North of England, Scotland feels closer than Twickenham. Chris Harris was the classic example, he was just over the border.
@@somersetfan1 I get that completely. I'm the same for Wales. Half my family is Welsh, half is English and I live in England nearer to Cardiff than London so that is my default rugby ground for internationals. Plus the tickets are cheaper and the atmosphere is better!
If I played for Wales though (however unlikely, don't laugh) since the Welsh side of my family moved to England I would probably qualify through grandparents and be viewed as a foreign born and developed player (rightly).
Therein lies the respect in ancestry.
Alot of those are left overs from when it was 3yrs to eligibility, one of the only things WR done well lately was increasing the time frame.
We are seeing the end of the project players era.
Personally I don't like the grandparents rule, parents should be the cut off imo.
Yeah with the 5 year requirement I'll be interesting to see how the amount of residency qualified players changes
Interesting fact.... when Covid hit, WR decided to postpone the 5 year increase for a bit, and almost immediately, JGP, James Lowe, Jaco van der Walt, Duhan van der Merwe, Oli Kebble and Pierre Schoeman were capped. All qualified under the 3 year but none under the 5. It was so blatantly obvious what Scotland and Ireland were doing.
The only Italian that wasn't a product of italian academies or U-18-20 it's Brex.
There were the two considerations, those who qualify through residency, which should be citizenship, and those who qualify through family. You might be born in New Zealand, but have an English mother so you are equally eligible for both countries on your parental basis etc. The changes made have muddied a fairly uncomplicated situation into one where anyone can play for any country, which when considered in the light of day is just like transfers. Are we sure this is helping rugby?
"anyone can play for any country"
The obvious rejoinder is why should international be different from club?
@silversolver7809 well if that is someone's opinion, then they are entitled to it. My reply would be that a national team isn't like a club team, or there is no point in calling them the nations teams which play international games. To have anyone playing for any nation is by definition not representative of the nation, and the basis of international matches is lost.
@silversolver7809 the clue is in the name... inter NATIONAL
This seems like a massive exaggeration. Anyone definitely can't play for anyone.
The rule changes were primarily about players returning to their countries of birth, and only if they've been absent from international rugby for 3 years.
@truthbetold8233 Well, if you work through the various permutations you will find that with time anyone can play for any country. Parents and grandparents give you eligibility. After the qualifying period, residence/citizenship will give you eligibility. And a period of three years after you've last played for a country means you can switch to the country of your birth or whatever the rules are. Seems to me that's pretty much close to anyone can play for any country, as long as you are prepared to wait a few years.
For this, does the likes of Andy Christie count as "home grown"?
He played Scotland U16, but then because he came through the Saracens academy he wasnt really given any choice other than England for U18/20. However, hes spoken during the week about how he only ever wanted to represent Scotland.
The problem with these lists is that with almost every player, if you look into their story, you find things like that. Even residency players have some reason to stay in that country, to represent that nation.
Born, raised and trained in England, no matter the drivel he's spouted about always wanting to play for Scotland.
@@clemfandango619 he literally started his age grade career with Scotland.
@@magnuspeacock5857 that doesn't change the fact that he was raised and trained in England.
@clemfandango619 he clearly had some training in Scotland too though.
@@magnuspeacock5857 training with an international team a few dozen times is hardly the same as the year in, year playing and training he did at school and for his junior club.
What defines “locally produced”? Dafydd Jenkins for example? Has only really played in England no?
Jenkins came through the welsh system but left for uni. It’s the same as underhill and dombrandt although he never played pro rugby in wales I don’t think
No he joined Exter because he attended Uni there, he played age grade through Wales
Ahh ok, yeah I knew he left Wales at like 17/18 but suppose up until then counts.
Those Scottish muggles
Would you say you agree with all the above because N.Z have been taking all the best talent from Fiji, Samoa and Tonga for decades to play for N.Z......Hence why N.Z have dominated for so long. Now things are changing though.....
I mean if you check NZ's record on imported players - 100% no. If anything there would be no Samoan or Tongan sides without all the NZ born players. That being said there are a handful who rep NZ who were products of other systems
Have you watched Pacific Warriors Documentary about N.Z going over to the neighboring islands and recruiting the best talent from Samoa at young ages. Now Japan are doing the same. Watch oceans apart too.
@@ShanePienaarEdge Huge difference between taking a chance on a kid, bearing the cost of schooling and academies and immigration in the hope that one day he might actually be good enough or strong enough or fast enough or even want to play rugby... versus buying an established professional rugby player with a known track record.
If NZ was in Europe they'd have more foreign players, which for them is limited to the likes of Samoa and Fiji.
This is a mine field that many refuse to cross, so full marks for giving it a go and remaining free of banter, bias or bs.
You are entering the nature - nurture debate, a false dichotomy as neither can exist without each other, and the idea of nationhood, whatever that means to people. Often people will not bat an eyelid so long as the surname sounds about right to the region, but call foul if it sounds foreign, forgetting that genes can be passed from the female! There are a lot of people of Scottish descent , for example, living elsewhere, that consider themselves to be Scottish, there will be players that through residency have developed an attachment to the area and as you said have taken their game to another level.
My only sadness is that I can no longer with honesty and decency ask an English fan whether a player from the Staffordshire or Glocestershire Vunipolas
One important thing you didn’t mention: to play for France you need a French passport (only country where that’s the case in Six Nations, and even all Tier 1 teams I think)
Yeah mate I think South Africa has the same thing, but yeah that's an extra requirement they've got. Like the English have for only picking guys playing in the Premiership - extra requirement
@@TwoCentsRugby that used to be the case, but it seems that was an added condition that had no actual grounding in the rules (that's the French for you), and it's been clarified when the case of Posolo Tuilagi came up, since he doesn't have a French passport but was deemed eligible this year, even though he didn't get called in the end. (and that sentense is way too long and convoluted, my bad)
One point here though, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have the same British passport. So whilst they could require a British Passport, they could not require a specific country passport.
@@xguilbert Posolo Tuilagi was called last week to be in the 6 Nations group after Meafou's injury
@@kropotkine9640 oh you're right, I had only seen the news reguarding Paul Willemse. so there, he's in! :-)
Which player from France was born in Namibia?
I think it's Willemse born in SA grew up in Namibia from memory
@@TwoCentsRugby Yep, that's him
Argentina
Not a fan of the residency thing. A naturalised citizen, all good. Very different. It just seems crazy that someone like Quade Cooper isn't a citizen of Australia yet played for them for years. And Oz continues to deny him citizenship
I thought they finally gave it to him!? But yeah he moved at like 14 or something? Hard to argue with him being an Aussie after all those years
I agree that it's rough that the Oz govt treated him that way. Last I saw was they rejected his application again. I just think it's cynical of international sport in general, not just rugby, to grant a player a jersey simply because they live somewhere. Guess I'm alone in that judging by the zero thumbs up
He was born in NZ. To be fair he's lived in Australia, most of his life. Hope he's OK.
If they all qualify, what does it matter?
borrowing talent
Can be interesting to see as a stand alone but can also reflect how the game is performing at youth levels in different countries.
I can understand why teams like italy,scotland,wales,japan but theres no reason england, ireland and france have no excuse to have foreigners they have enough talent
@@kingpower4631 when you say foreigners. Guessing foreign trained and then it often comes to players on whether they believe they will be called up by their nation of development when that nation is also top tier. If it's a smaller nation that developed them then it will be because they believe it's a better opportunity for themselves, regardless of impact on their national team.
@@normalconversation Yeah but some countries don't need foreigners soo why take them you forget they offer theseoverseas players to come not the way around
Now do an all blacks one
Did it at the RWC ;)
Scotland got the whole rainbow thing going on in there circle lol
The two English foreigners are unlikely to play a game this 6N
Look at the all blacks? They’ve been capping any good pacific island players for decades!
The only stat I'm interested in is the imported fir Rugby purposes. Nations like Italy could actually do with a couple of talented imports but France Ireland and so on have the pick of the bunch.
"Ireland … have the pick of the bunch"
I'm fairly sure England and France have the pick, since their funding far outstrips everyone else. Leinster have good funding in Ireland, but the other 3 clubs don't-eg Munster can't afford to keep RG Snyman whereas Leinster can snap him up despite already having James Ryan, Ryan Baird, Jason Jenkins, Joe McCarthy and Ross Molony… tho maybe 1-2 of those are moving on?
Players choose to move to other countries for many reasons-in many careers it's seen as a necessary part of one's development. And of course pro rugby is a profession, just like engineering or cooking are. Here in USA we import oodles of tech people from India, yet nobody questions the 'Americanness' of our tech companies.
FIR imported no one if not Brex, that is the only one that is not a direct product of the academies or U18-20. All other players like Izekor, Vintcent, Capuozzo, Negri, started as childs or adolescents to playing and training in Italy.
Saying that just to give a real point of view about players.
@@silversolver7809This the same Munster who had five fly halves on the books when they wangled Carbery from Leinster while Connacht had zero fit fly halves and Ulster had just lost Jackson? That Munster? The same Munster who kept Snyman on their books for 4 years even though he was injured the whole time? The same Munster who had Dougie Howlett? And Christian Cullen? And Jean de Villiers?
Poor old Munster 😂
@@Dreyno Yep, that Munster.
Did you have a point to make?
If not, thanks for replying.
@@silversolver7809 My point is that Munster crying about not being able to afford players is laughable.
Scots have always emigrated and set down roots elsewhere, we make no apologies for it.
also, as expected, an America Rugby News article with an agenda... Notice it's important to note that players in the Scotland squad that have played for England U20s, but why does it not say that Ali Price played for Scotland U20s - he's been part of the Exiles program, and then the Scottish Rugby Academy and has played pretty much his entire professional career in Scotland.
Lot of Scottish heritage Kiwis - hope they didn't move here looking for a place with no rain cos it's always bloody raining here
@@TwoCentsRugby think they all settled in the south island because it was so like home 😂
I think that column is "other rep." - so only includes teams not the same as the test team represented. Some of the Italian guys also played U20s for Italy but it's not written up, George North for Wales U20s etc
@@TwoCentsRugby I get that, but i think there's a distinction between, say Ali Price or Rory Hutchison who has played age grade for Scotland and Ben White who played age grade for England.
Also, what some people don't realise is that for EQP if you are in one of the Premiership academies, if the England U20s want to play you, you don't have a choice - refuse and you're out the academy. These guys are playing age grade for England for the sake of their overall future in rugby, never mind international ambitions.
England could make another team of English born players playing for different nations.
Scotland😂 a quarter r English & more than half overall not born in Scotland, embarressing!!
🥱
Mack hansen is as irish as cheese n onion tatyo crisps
Bundi aki is as irish as a bottle of buckfast down at the Spanish arch
Jameson gibson park is as irish as a 1am mugging in temple bar - his name is jameson for christ sake!
James lowe is as irish as an emergency hot chicken roll.
All these people are irish, just ask them.
Love some Jameson's
And every single one of them will piss off back to New Zealand as soon as they hang up their boots, thereby proving the lie you tell yourselves, much like CJ Stander did. The day SA met Ireland in the RWC, CJ was at home, in South Africa, with his Springbok swimmer brother-in-law, and shouting for the Boks.
Mack hansons mother is from castlemartyr county cork
Drove through castlemartyr prior to 2023 world cup and the best wishes from that town signage were big for mack hanson wishing him the best, why would that town do it unless macks cork born mother was from there
Like all NZ squad are from NZ!!
Je vais essayer de rester courtois, ainsi que ça m’est demandé.
C’est des problèmes de fascistes! « Blood related » va te faire.
La dernière fois que j’ai vu ça, c’était les argentins pour la finale de foot qui étaient tous devenus généalogistes.
Pour un pays sous perfusion du fmi, c’était bien de constater qu’ils travaillaient enfin. Vu leurs résultats, pas bien, mais c’était bien d’essayer de travailler.
Donc des mecs qui quittent leurs pays, montrent qu’ils sont bons sont accueillis plus ou moins bien , sont des mercenaires? Des mecs qui vivent depuis 5-10-15 ans dans ce nouveau pays où ils ne connaissaient pas la langue ?
Fasciste.
Hats off to the Rugby mercenaries. They have gained fame and secured their futures. Their only problem is that playing in Northern Hemisphere teams, they are unlikely to ever lift a World Cup. 😋
The scottish stealing of talent makes a mockery of international rugby
So does the Irish.
How?
@@x-latetv-x6816 By buying players from other nations to exploit the eligibility laws. Law 8 defines "residence" as "place of primary and permanent home". So how then can someone go out and prove that to be the case, and a few weeks of getting his first cap, move to a new country and still be eligible to play for the one he just left and needs a visa to play in? that was Duhan van der Merwe moving to Worcester shortly after playing his first game for Scotland.
@@x-latetv-x6816 might as well just have different barbarian teams full of random nationalities play 😂
@@jakeclough8090 no need to go that far. Keep your team 90% ethnicity and allow 10%
The welsh people you were talking to were telling you lies- otherwise every english born player in wales' squads would be born to two welsh parents in border counties- which is categorically false.
With Respect to Scotland and Ireland I personally think they are taking the idea of foreign players to extremes and it should not be allowed, there used to be a cap on how many foreign players you could use, I think that would be fair. I don't even mind if its a sliding scale based on player numbers available for example England has 450k Wales had 40k etc.
for example - Scotland is not a Scottish team, and to say its anything but cheating would be disingenuous. The point of international rugby is to pit players FROM a country against another. IF their grass roots is not good then that should rightfully reflect in the team and this would also FORCE them to invest in the grassroots game which would be better for Scotland than poaching from abroad.
Just to put it into perspective, if I was seriously loaded I could easily tempt the best players from around the world to play for my regions and through residency have them play for my country, that wouldn't be right in my opinion
How is Ireland taking it to an ‘extreme’ with only 3 project players?
Why pick Ireland? Not even remotely the worst on this list.
Scotland are taking the piss' to be fair.
@@davineames Why is 20% of your starting lineup who scored 43% of your tries in the RWC and took 75% of your Man of the Match awards not startling to you? Why is "only 3" even uttered without shame?
You play against teams who have enough national pride to select ONLY players who are citizens of their nation or at the very least, legitimate immigrants, and you buy the win against them. Argentina proved that they can demolish your team, but will they ever be able to demolish your cheque book? How about Fiji, or Samoa or any of a number of smaller nations with very little cash who can no longer compete against you because the Pound is strong? And you're not even ashamed of that?
@@Karma-qt4ji Pound :)
@@Karma-qt4jithey earned their spots through performance, unless you want to shut the system down entirely. Whats your solution?
Weird how the small minority of foreign Six Nations players end up being some of the best players for each respective nation.
Duhan, Lowe, Aki, etc. and that’s a pattern that has repeated over the years.
I guess if you're gonna replace a local you better be good!
None of those 3 are the best player for their respective nation.
"Some of the best"
@@HibeeMcbee haha I laughed when he said that and thinks its true.. Aki was superb in the world cup tho!
I dont think it'is the case for France ... Maybe meafou one day
Scotland, with a tiny playing population (10% of the size of ENG and IRE for example) have only 4 residency players. The rest is just representative of the Scottish diaspora. The youth scheme needs support for sure ( although I see 7 or 8 great prospects at Glasgow alone ) but the fact they can more than compete with much larger playing populations is remarkable.
Many folk object to the diaspora thing, and put in silly rules like only playing in home leagues, etc, but two things come to mind when I hear that:
- those who have those exclusion rules tend to reflect the political/social attitudes in those countries, eg, Scotland is far more inclusive than England will ever be.
- if I were born anywhere in the world, to parents from Scotland, there is only one country that I would want to play for.
I get the grandparent thing, and agree it sometimes stretches things a wee bit, but when you see pictures of a young Sione Tuipulotu with his Scottish grannie, embracing the culture from a very young age, then why not?
Regardless of all that, the best tournament in the world is just days away. Good luck to all the teams and players regardless of background, and looking forward to meeting up with old friends for a drink and a chat.
Scotland has a population of 5.4 million and Ireland have a population of 5.03 million.
Where did you Scotland only has 10% of the population of Ireland ?
England is a pretty inclusive place to me, as a Maori women living here 20 years.
I am not so sure about the future of Scottish Rugby. Their U20 lost to Uruguay in the last U20 Trophy (the second-tier competition for U20 teams) and failed to be promoted to the Top Tier. Nw they have to qualify for the next Trophy with trips to Germany and Portugal.
In 2022 they lost by 40 or 50 points to Georgia. They have a lot of English players with Scottish parents or grandparents but they are the product of the English rugby system. On the long term they have a problem.
I think, however, that, if a player has the passport of a given country, then he can represent it. No question about it. But residency players are a disgrace. It is a non-sense. Why people like Ioane should be playing for Italy or Van der Merwe for Scotland, or Lowe for Ireland? I think it's just a way to "keep competitive" certain teams.
OP means registered players, not national population.@@TheCholopolo209
@@TheCholopolo209 playing population - both ENG and IRE have 250-300k registered players, SCO has around 25k.
there should be NONE of them !
Do you prefer wasting the talent of some of them who were never been picked by their home nation to play at international level ?
The problem with your stance is that the UK is a country, so someone born in Scotland has the same passport as someone born in Wales. They are all British, so nobody with that passport is foreign in any of the constituent countries. Someone being born in Ireland, but playing for England, or any combination of the 4 Home Nations is not the same as someone from NZ playing for France.
@@handsolo1209*or for Ireland
@@kropotkine9640 Yes.
I'm South African and we suck at the Olympics. So we should just go out and buy leftover Americans and Russians so we can get more medals? Shame, those poor athletes who failed to make the US and Russian Olympics teams! We should give them a chance.....
I've said it before and I'll say it again. InterNATIONAL. Between nations. Not between nations cheque books. Because the day some wealthy middle eastern state becomes overly interested in rugby as they did in golf, and suddenly the UAE is number one ranked team in the world because who would say no to big bucks and living in Dubai, your opinion will change rapidly.
Hopefully we wont be seeing any 'rainbow referees shirts' in any of the games.
Yeah im against this now, tuilangi playing for france is non sensical. Each club should pick the people from their country or people with a very close familial relation. Other countries shouldn't be poaching players who have no cultural links with them from their nations of birth for university degrees/money.
France didn't poached him!!!
Tuilagi was born in Samoa but at the age of 4 he followed his father to England and at the age of 6 he arrived in France when his father came to play for USAP (Perpignan). This sam year he played rugby for the first time with the USAP and, 13 years later, he still plays for this club at the professional level. With the exception of nursery school he did all his schooling in France. He certainly has more cultural links with France than with Samoa.
Samoa and Tonga most players are NZers and Aussies, hopeless nations cant develop there own 💀
Yet there flag waving, car sirens at 3am sounding fans love to think NZ and Aus 'poach' there players
Gtfoh
Yet every New Zealander moves to Sydney or Melbourne for a better life. Go figure. Ye pretty much have the same flag anyways, so don't worry about that.They are your big brothers 😉
I don't care. We beat England with English born and raised players...I don't care. Winning is all that counts. Look international Rugby is a professional business that is about making money and little else. It wraps itself up in National, flags, history and culture, only to get more money off supporters and the taxpayer. The WRU, RFU, SRFU, IRU would put it all behind a paywall, to the exclusion of most supporters tomorrow if it thought it could make more cash.
What have you WON in your lifetime then ? A few matches here and there never been to a World Cup final haven’t ever WON anything
International rugby is INTER NATIONS. It's just a handful of you who have decided to make it a professional business because you suck otherwise.
@@alexhiscock3122wtf? We have won many grand slams and championships, and the Sevens world cup. Been to many many world cup semi and quarter finals. Pretty good for a nation of 3 million.
What a utterrly meaningless and bizarre question.
@@Karma-qt4jiI don't understand the anger. I am just explaining how meaningless it is, and why international rugby isn't a reflection on anything, particularly national loyalty... So who cares who actually plays.
@mixodorians12 the people who have the pride to want to represent their country. And the people from that country who support the team. Look how the Portuguese team reacted when they beat Fiji and tell me no national pride is involved. Yet Portugal will never be able to compete with countries who should be beatable but buy better players because they have a bigger budget.