Thieves Den mission isn't an original Thief mission, it's added back into the "Gold" edition, which actually has mixed reactions from fans because it's commonly argued that the added missions ruined the pacing of the game.
Yeah, the Thieves' Guild mission is best skipped as a first time player honestly. Create a save file, wait until you finish the game, then play through without potentially ruining the entirety of the game. As for the rest of Thief Gold (aka, Thief: The Dark Project), The Mage Towers feels required for story reasons but arguably far more painful of a mission. Song of Caverns is certainly the best of the three and fits with the overall pacing. As for missions like Down in the Bonehoard and Return to the Cathedral, it's important to know that The Dark Project was originally meant to be something akin to Kingdom Come: Deliverance but in a dark fantasy setting. Thus you reach points in the games that, depending on how view it, either disrupt your stealth gameplay experience, or they give you a moment to embrace what is available in terms of combat and freedom of movement. Both are valid points of view regardless. Overall, there are good reasons why most fans of the Thief series like The Metal Age the best. Not to say it is without flaws either, but it is a far more cohesive stealth experience. With the exception of one level that'll likely stick out like a sore thumb. And don't overlook Deadly Shadows with the Sneaky Upgrade!
Man, I love Thief so hard. I haven't played it in ages, but I never had a problem with the level size. I played through the game on Expert on my first play through, which meant I couldn't kill anyone, I actually had to exit the level, I had to collect a bunch of loot, and I had far less health. Still, it was a PC game so you could save whenever you want.. if I remember correctly. I had no problem with the size of the levels. I love exploring in games and I'm a completist. I loved robbing places of every single thing of value. I also loved the undead missions, which I wasn't expecting, but gave me a sense of anxiousness that games still can't cause me to have. I loved the architecture of the giant tomb (the boneyard?) I loved trying to figure out how to get through, and I'd try to sprint past zombies and clamber up to a ledge to have a horde form below me while I try to figure out where I haven't been yet. Also, I think the thing that I found revolutionary about the game was the ability to mantle. The first time I was short a jump, but I pulled myself up anyways, my mind was blown. It opened up so many different possibilities, and I loved figuring out how to traverse things vertically. I remember there was this one level.. I'm not sure if it was the first game or the second one, but you had to follow some guards through The City, and then sneak your way into the walled compound. The way I decided to get in was to go back and search the city for crates. I carried them back from all corners of the city to make some stairs so I could get over the wall.
What I love about Thief is that it forces you to actually try and think like a master of stealth, rather than just handing these abilities to you. You have to figure out a strategy about how you're going to complete the level (Put out the torches with some water arrows and pickpocket the key from the guard in the dark, or surprise him with a flash bomb and then knock him out with your blackjack, that kind of thing.)
What makes the old Thief work very well, is also the ambient sounds, that really add to the feeling of the game. It uses those sounds a lot more than other games I've tried.
Man, this is why I lament not being able to play the original version in 2014 without finding a CD at a flea market. I mean, my overall complaints about level size and their maze-like nature remain, but that level being an expansion-based level makes too much sense and I sort of wish I played the version of the game without it.
Errant Signal I dunno, I always enjoyed the huge levels. Having to scout around trying to find just the right way to go. Of course I say this being removed from the thieves den mission by 10+ years.. I do remember being quite pissed off at the sewers. I think in the end I prefer large maze like levels to linear levels, I'd rather get lost for a few minutes than feel like the game is holding my hand.
Errant Signal Your best bet is some alterations. Pressing control-delete-alt-end while in game skips you to the next level, and you can edit the amount of gold you start with. I do that sometimes to get around the Casino level
Errant Signal Well, even without this casino level and mage tower, in first thief there was lways too much level. And it feels like it is unnatural. I remember going from one empty room to another. Absolute empty rooms without rational reason, if only for shadow to hide. But still, love both old Thief games. With deadly shadow I could not play, my system just refused. And new... well, for that one I should upgrade my PC. Thanks for making this videos. It's really rare to see such work of thought with reviewing games.
I do think it's important to note that the Thieves' Den mission isn't only not completely necessary, but wasn't even part of the original Thief: The Dark Project game. It, along with 2 (I believe) other mission, were cut to make the game a bit shorter. They were only added back in with Thief Gold in 2000, sort of a Director's Cut. So, in a way, they were recognized as filler ^^ Great video! I'm psyched as hell for the reboot, lol. Two more days!
Yet, all the trailers and game footage I've seen so far, I've enjoyed. I'm not saying it'll be 100% perfect, but I'm not going to be all pessimistic about it, either.
One of my favorites :D I also loved The Mage Towers and, in Thief 2, Life of the Party. Also, Thief 3's Robbing the Cradle mission was absolutely terrifying, lol.
Man, you're not kidding when you're talking about excessively huge levels. It makes for an epic experience, like the "Thieves' Highway" level that has you going through a whole city across the rooftop in what would make a full game mission nowadays, only to confront you with a huge, open ended 6-story building to do the other 3/4 of the level in. At the same time you often feel like you've been dropped in the middle of New York where only one of the skyscrapers is really relevant to you. Anyway, some ridiculously good games in there, just wish they had taught you shift-alt-w (lean forward) in the tutorial.
I really love what you said about how Garrett lives somewhere between the hammers and pagans in terms of embracing technology/human society and embracing nature/magic. It makes Garrett the perfect tool of the keepers.
Many people think they should prefer Thief 2's "all burglary, all the time" missions with no zombies, monsters, etc. Then they play five straight burglary missions in a row and begin to miss TDP. Mission diversity is important.
Part of why I've always liked Deadly Shadows, or the many creative fan missions, and The Dark Mod's many missions. The third game married the sensibilities of the first and second one, and the fan mission projects offer lots of diversity on their own, regardless of what engine they're running on (to date, basically three different engines - Thief's modding legacy is very healthy !).
Tovi Almozlino As mechanically incongruous as the paranormal entities were (particularly in TDP), they contributed to Thief’s horror-like atmosphere to such an extent that their removal in TMA greatly hampered the sequel’s ambiance.
ZemplinTemplar I agree that DS was, in a way, the best of both worlds, even if it were a bit too forgiving and lacked some of LGS’s attention-to-detail in the story department. The added sense of physicality (i.e. being able to see Garrett’s body in first-person) was also welcome in spite of the quirks brought upon by UE2.
I find that so many thief fans least and most favorite levels are usually both found in tdp.. With nearly everyone's favorite being return to the cathedral and with good reason while the most hated is the lost city. I don't get it, the lost city isn't perfect but it was one of the best examples of being fleshed out thematically to hear perfection what with all the readable items telling the story of the precursors room from their perspectives, your old map barely being of any help, and the very unique architecture serving to really set it apart from the modern world in the game. The first three thief games were all amazing and it's just a shame that the fourth, or reboot which is a lot more accurate of a description, took nearly everything that made the originals great and either scrapped them completely or shut all over the previously refined mechanics and lore to the point it was way too easy and utterly boring not just from a gameplay point of view but a story and lore side too. Seeing what was done to my absolute favorite game series still to this day breaks my heart and it really shows that four was a blatant cash grab taking advantage of a community that loves the true series dearly and has for over two decades now.
I have never, ever before this heard someone hold Thief's massive awesome levels as a negative. To be fair the one he specified doesn't really count insofar as the kind of fare the series is known for, but still. Thief having huge sprawling level design is not a point I would generally put in the con's list.
The thieves guild mission doesn't fit in the story, but it has a reason. Thieves guild was one of the bonus missions added to the game in the Gold release.
Having just replayed T1/2 for the first time in decades, there is something subtle going on with the level design in 1 that I found quite clever. Basically every mission in the first act is a training mission without explicitly telling you it's a training mission. I mean, sure there's the obligatory (optional) actual training mission that teaches you some basic movement/combat/inventory mechanics, but each level leading up to The Sword introduces something new. Bafford's introduces the basic braindead guards, and teaches you (almost subliminally) about how the obstacles you need to overcome become more difficult as you reach your goal - you encounter louder surfaces, less darkness, tougher guards, doors that require you to acquire a key, alternate/secret ways of approaching obstacles, etc. Cragscleft introduces spiders, zombies and Hammerites (and their hatred of one another). Bonehoard is a zombie masterclass, and also introduces puzzles and complex level architecture. Assassin's is a guard masterclass, Thieves Guild is a navigational masterclass, and then from The Sword onwards you basically apply everything you've learned up to that point. In a modern game (say....Thief 2014) the designers would empower the player through an upgrade system where the player character's abilities and tools get stronger. Thief 1 taught you how to get better at the game. The obstacles get tougher but your abilities and tools are essentially the same as they are at the beginning.
Excellent review, I agree on so many points where you go into detail about what makes Thief such a good stealth game to its core gameplay, not just what made it great at the time compared to other games of the time. Though, I wish you would (unlike to many other game journalists/reviewers) at least acknowledge there was a System Shock before the second game in the series. All over the Internet you can find references, reviews and ravings about System Shock 2, but believe it or not, there was an original System Shock; it was a fantastic and enjoyable game (I enjoyed it thoroughly, anyway).
Erm this is awkward... the thieves den mission was a bonus added in for Thief Gold. So they could not have made it relevant to the plot without changing the storyline of the (already massively successful) game. In the original game The Sword follows the Ramirez mission. Nice research...
This was a really interesting analysis, and included a number of neat points and facts--thank you for it! :D Your description of how Thief's stealth system differs from those in other games prompted me to realise that perhaps that difference is the reason that I love Thief and Thief 2, but have seldom gravitated to other stealth games. I think that it may be Thief's specific approach to stealth--that very deliberate, considered, and vulnerable approach--that I so enjoy, and less so the "I am swift death" approaches on some others. I do wonder why we haven't seen much stealth in the mould of Thief. :/ I'll admit that I feel differently to you on two points: The first is that I love the size of the levels; I love having these sprawling places to explore and loot, complex without (often) becoming the mazes seen in games like Ultima Underworld. I suspect that, for me at least, shorter levels might have left the game feeling less satisfying. Of course, all of this is personal preference; I include it not to gainsay you, not to prove you "wrong", but because I wanted to give voice to this opposing experience. The second point is that I don't think that the game requires much combat even amongst the undead; I think that I recall sneaking through much of the Cathedral and Bonehoard levels. (But then, I'm one of the seeming few who really enjoyed the supernatural and undead-filled levels, in particular the two that I mentioned above. I actually rather missed those elements in Thief 2, as I recall, albeit acknowledging that their exclusion fits with the plot.)
The tension and anxiety when you try to slowly sneak in the shadows on a marble floor and you make that one false step. You stop breathing and your heartrate goes trough the roof all the while you try and listen if anyone heard you, and if someone did, you feel like a disgrace. I really need to reinstall Thief 2 now. Thank you!
@@ShahStark fucking hell, can you people stop bringing up Gloomwood in every Thief conversation, when it has absolutely nothing in common with Thief except a steampunk-y technomedievel-y pseudo victorian setting.
The "Thieves Den" level is in Thief Gold only. It's a 'filler' level because it was put in as an afterthought. In fact, I'm pretty sure the level wasn't even made by the developers of the original game.
AluminumHaste Unfortunately, you are mistaken. You will note that LGS worked on the programming and some textures for 'Gold', however the level designs were created by Stephen Bell and Andrew Miltner, who were never part of LGS.
A fair review if you ask me. I agree with you about the idea that you feel more human in this game than other stealth games; there's no see-through-walls ability, no mid-level cut scenes or floating arrows pointing you to your objective. It's why I love the game. I'm also glad you called bullshit on the portrayal that many fans give of Garrett being a perfect ghost, in and out, never seen, never engaging enemies. There's a reason he has a sword, blackjack, arrows, flash bombs etc... One thing I don't agree with is when you said some parts of the game are more designed for fighting. I've played through the game many times and never felt like I've had to fight. Sure it's possible to get caught and end up in a scrap, but there are always ample shadows, cover, and routes that allow for a stealth approach. It's a common misconception that when people see the monsters they think they have to fight them, but in reality they can be hidden from, circumvented and generally outwitted in the exact same ways humans can.
All three games in the series have excellent sound propagation design and ambient music. Which makes the barely-there approach used in the reboot all the sadder and more inexplicable.
I'm sure many would disagree with me on this, but I've always liked to think of Garrett as a semi-sympathetic character, a loveable misanthrope: sure, he has a very bitter, cynical view of the world, but after saving the City (and possibly the whole world) three times you can hardly argue that he has no love whatsoever for his fellow men. I mean, you could excuse saving the world just once out of carelessness and maybe twice as a coincidence, but three times is pushing it. Although I can't really prove it, I also like to think that Garrett is a class loyalist: he came from the streets and knows what it's like to be poor, so he's very aware of social inequality and the damage it can cause. He's a Robin Hood that takes from the rich and... gives to the people who can sell him cool gadgets? All right, so my argument isn't very strong, but still; I have a special place in my heart for Garrett and I dislike it when people portray him as some kind of Ubermensch who looks down on all of humanity.
Considering that the state of the art for first-person melee before Thief was Doom's "fistpunch!" button, Thief's sword combat was actually quite advanced, supporting left and right swings, overhead swings, and blocking. This is due to the engine originally being designed to support the abandoned "Dark Camelot" game concept.
Saw your video on Reddit. All I have to say is that you just got yourself a new subscriber. This is an extremely well made video with fantastic, indepth analytical commentary.
Very awesome timing suh. I gotta say I appreciate how it goes out of it's way to create all those different metrics of stealth, I can't say I have played a game ever where holding still in shadows made you stealthier than movement in the shadows. I am waiting on the pile of "word of mouth" before I dare invest in the new Thief game, I am aware of it's troubled development because of you and Shamus and I am done contributing to the problem of "Pre-ordering" unlike Shamus, I hope he enjoys his "exclusive" sniper hats. D:
I appreciate what you said towards the end about Thief's contrast with modern stealth games that feature an x-ray mode. I'm playing Metal Gear Solid 3 (which lacks a soliton radar) for the first time and listening for footsteps, perching on a high branch, and using a variety of other means to scout out the area before proceeding is really engaging to me.
Had exactly the same experience. To be honest, MGS3 has some good ways of scouting enemies, but those that are the most reliable have either some drawbacks (Sonar can be heard and it shows both enemies and animals) or run on limited resource. That's one of the best examples of how to do X-ray modes, imho.
What you said about the original's movement style also enhances the horror game aspect of it, I find. There were several times in that game where I pressed myself into a dark corner and quivered while an alert Hammer Haunt or something was inching closer to me. I for one loved that the levels were "too big." It was a little frustrating during the time, but in hindsight, getting lost in the caverns near the haunted cathedral, for instance, was a very interesting experience.
Really great discussion about what made Thief so interesting. I loved painstakingly making my way through the world. That said, I never finished either game, because I hated the undead levels far too much.
Now I know why I found splinter cell so terrifying as a kid. Stealth was your shield for your weak character and not an aggression tool. Nice to understand the background of what creates the thrill.
So sad that Thief 2014 turned out the way it did. I kinda enjoyed parts of it, but despite the "polish" it didn't grip me as good as Dark Project, Metal Age, or even Deadly Shadows. Sure, Deadly Shadows wasn't as sprawling as the original two, but it was still pretty good. And while Thief 2014's semi-open world felt more like a commute with opportunities for incidental, less impactful dumpster-diving, I feel like Deadly Shadows had a slightly more enjoyable semi-open world, that didn't feel like a commute at the time. Then again, I should probably do a new playthrough of Deadly Shadows to see if the semi-open world there still holds up after all these years.
@@KingLich451 DS suffered the Invisible War syndrome. It was a good game on it's own right but a weaker successor. Although DS did not fail as much as IW did for Deus Ex. It's tone still felt faithful to the classics however. Something this 2014 abomination strayed far from.
As others have noted, the _Thieves' Guild_ mission was one of three missions added in with the Thief Gold package (which also added the overheard dialog throughout the game). It is also the scrappy level in that it's long, not very pretty and tedious to get through. The other two _The Mage Towers_ and _Song of the Caverns_ feature the additional keys to the Haunted Cathedral. (The latter was the opera house.) Anyway, disregard if you figured this out by now.
Thief wasn't just a stealth game. It was an immersive sim, like System Shock and Ultima Underworld before it. The Thieves' Guild level was an extra mission included the Gold edition (essentially an expansion).
+MajorPhilGraves Wouldn't you not say the same thing every game though? Most games are design at trying to make you feel like your in the actual experience like racing game, space simulation, shooters and rpgs.
05:30 Here, you describe the AWESOMENESS of the game! I loved this level (which was added with the Gold edition of Thief: The Dark Project). Because it was so huge, complex and with so many secrets. YOU had really to explore the level and find your own way through it. That's much more of a challenge than today's kiddie-game design.
FYI, in Thief 4, there are only rare, special instances of your footsteps being audible to your enemies, like walking in water or on broken glass. Otherwise, your movement is silent. Floor material is irrelevant to the gameplay. Also, instead of a dozen factors determining your visibility, trying to simulate the visibility in a real world environment, there are arbitrarily defined exact three states, that only take into account the darkness of your immediate surroundings. In other words, Thief 4, a "next-gen" installment in 2014 is just a fraction as advanced compared to the first game from 1998, when it comes to the game's most important mechanics.
This is a fact that applies to Deus Ex as well. The original games are more advanced than the newer ones. Wtf world do we live in where technology regresses while it advances? It's retarded.
@@unclepauly10vlogs7 You can thank the inept developers and their PR team at Square Enix / Eidos Montreal who thinks Deus Ex and Thief should take inspirations from other "cooler" and "trendy" franchises from the modern times than their decades old namesakes.
this is the first time I've ever been truly impressed with how the ambitions of a games scope have aged. Since nothing really tries to take that much detail into your stealthing these days. Some of those things: moving in the dark, the noise of your footfalls and equipment, are taken into consideration in Skyrim, but can be easily negated with skill ups.
Perfect summary of the strengths and weaknesses of The Dark Project. Great video, can't wait to play the new Thief. Here's hoping they bring some of the magic back.
One of the coolest things about the thief series is that in 1, 2, and Deadly Shadows, you can finish each game without killing or even knocking anyone out (besides those who require it as an objective), there's a series on youtube by Travis Whitsitt doing just that, check it out!
Exactly. And Garrett being Garrett, he defeats all three main bad guys purely through stealth. That's still pretty unique among computer game protagonists.
This is an insightful, well-worded retrospective. I agree, no one game can single-handedly invent a sub-genre. Rather, stealth games interpret the act of stealth using differing game mechanics; there is no first nor true stealth game and thus no progeny nor pretenders. I think the Thief series attracts snobbish deference; many of its fans possess the misguided notion that it invented stealth in gaming, or that its is the only true stealth (although I've been a fan since 1998 and think neither of these things). Thief's contribution is definitely impactful, if not influential; most subsequent stealth games, as you've mentioned, streamline being stealthy for gaming pleasure and spectacle: one button kills, superhuman powers, and so forth. What you found frustrating about The Dark Project - its sprawling, erratic, eccentric level design - however, I really loved. The manor in the mission, 'The Sword' was intent on getting you confused by dead ends, fake corridors and rooms which didn't make sense; it was the Trickster's after all! This environmental storytelling of Thief's character, psychological interiority, setting, plot and so on is what sticks with me after all these years and not it's stealth, ironically enough. Anyway, great game, great video.
I love the way you talk about the momentum in the Darkengine movement system, however even outside the context of providing challenge it always was my favourite fps movement. And I've found it to be very controllable just that you have to learn it, as is the case with all movement systems. It is easier to go between games as it is less different today though, with how much feels like it is based either on the Bad Company idea, or the Halo idea.
Like people said Thieves Den was added in the gold version. One of the things I like most about thief is its level design, I like that you have to think where you are on the map and the many possibilities there are to go through it. You're one of the few people I've heard having this problem with levels being too huge(that have played the game when it came out?). Give me huge, complex and confusing level design any day. It would be a breath of fresh air compared to today's games linear, corridor design.
Personally, I really enjoyed the sprawling, difficult to navigate levels. They created a powerful sense of being lost and trapped, rather than just making me frustrated.
Nice video yet again. Just a couple of points about Dishonored. 1) I think it really does inherit the idea from Thief that stealth is more than simply a power fantasy; when you play a high bloodshed game you are constantly punished by Dishonored and it's in the lethal abilities (e.g. Devouring Swarm) that the true power fantasy lies. 2) Moreover, that makes Dishonored even more relevant to your point about the character of Garrett not being a super-stealthy thief, because Corvo Attano is reputedly a bloody warrior, yet the game forces you into all sorts of cognitively dissonant "clean hands" solutions. With both games, stealth is selected by the player not so much because it suits the character but because the character's logical pathway through the game is blocked by punitive game mechanics.
+Sordel Both points 1 and 2 are not true at all. There is an ability that is unlocked that for every person you kill they turn to dust thus removing the obstacle of disposing the bodies and also with the weapon upgrades and spells you can easily kill off dozens of guards.
Excellent review, I kind of agree about the consistence in which the Garrett character is portrayed. But bear in mind that although in most cutscenes he's shown killing people(unnecessary I might add), I think that was more of a marketing ploy, those we probably shown as trailers so those deaths were made to grab attention. But the game itself is fairly consistent in showing Garrett as a non-lethal character, most of the hardest difficulties Garrett clearly says that he's no assassin and so he does not kill. So much that canonically he has only killed 3 characters (Constantine, Karras and the frozen pagan dude)
this game has a truly unique atmosphere and tone, sort of like a terribly depressing and broody primitive steampunk alternative dimension, it's disturbing! unnerving, i dont know if i encountered more weird world in gaming than dark project's
Recently discovered your channel, really good stuff. I have to disagree with some of your points though, especially in regards to the levels being too large for their own good. I definitely got lost a few times playing the game, but I thought the size of the levels was a strength overall. Picking the Thieve's Den to make your point I don't think was necessarily fair; it's by far the most confusing level of the game (the only one where I truly felt lost and frustrated as a result), and the mission which many consider to be the weakest. The size of the levels also allows for the pretty unique approach to difficulty settings. If the levels were smaller and more compact, there simply wouldn't be as much space to put in optional objectives and additional loot.
For me mechanic of fight in the game was to show the players that like in other games at the time you can kill if you want. My first thing to do when i was young was to be a badass before i learned the hard way that the best way to win the game is by stealth not fight. And that's 1000x better then doing it by forcing the player to be peacful...
The Thieves guild level was not part of the base game, it's only part of Thief Gold, and yeah, it's a shitty level. That's why it was removed from the original game.
It wasn't removed. It wasn't removed for being shitty. It hadn't been built to a significant degree, yet. This wasn't the company or time yet in gaming development where DLC could very well be sliced out and sold later.
I didn't really like the first thief game. I only played through it because of respect for the stealth genre. But I didn't like at all the clunky movement and the stealth was nearly non existent (I played on the hardest difficulty though, so that might have been the problem ^^). Thief 2 though was great! I loved it, it had much better level design and they'd improved the stealth a LOT. It's not even the same game imo. But I may be one of the few stealth enthusiasts that actually likes the idea that stealth doesn't have to be slow. And that's why I think Blacklist is the best stealth game I've ever played, and I'll defend that game no matter what. For the longest time stealth was synonymous with being slow, and only in later years it started shifting to make it more accessible. And I'm fine with that, the genre needed some refreshing.
"stealth was nearly non existent (I played on the hardest difficulty though, so that might've been the problem)" I...what? So you're saying because you had to not kill anybody and steal more that made you less stealthy? I don't get it.
I know this is an old video, but the schizophrenia of Thief: The Dark Project is mostly due to a shift in goals late in development. The original plan was to release it as a steampunk shooter somewhat in the vein of Heretic.
I don't consider the Thieves' Guild mission a true part of Thief 1. It was added in the Gold edition of the game which I didn't play until some years after the original release. The 3 bonus missions never felt like part of the game for me and are my least replayed.
I keep getting a few hours into Thief Deadly Shadows, then getting distracted. I really, really enjoy it, too in spite of the tiny maps. One day I'll finish it...
After watching the video I was going to write and say I thought your mark on the games level design was wrong to start with, but then I remembered some of the earlier levels in the game, if you were not in the age to play the games when they first came out you might still find enjoyment in wondering the streets and visiting the manors to rob them blind. Otherwise I dread the thought of having to slog through the starter levels again. On the subject of Garrett the character I think that not including the third game (weakest of the 3 that it is) doesn't give the progression arc that shows his character moving away from being a killer and thief to someone who has gone through a series of trials to become a man who has some principles and tries to stick to them (I wont spoil the trinity ending). The Player might go out of their way to slay every beast, but that's the easy route (even though you die quicker then just running away), and forcing a person to have to play on their toes makes me remember when I would hold my breath as the guard would literally stand a foot away from me and peek into the darkness, still missing me by a gaming inch. Garrett isn't a nice guy per say but he is a realist, if he sees that one side is going to end another and he cant either profit or survive under its rule he'll go and in a sense "stop" them. For those that have made it this far I recommend the thief extra maps created for the dark engine (good luck finding those on the net) and some of the TC's out there for the old game. Also look up Thievery for multiplayer thief gaming using the original unreal engine and The Dark mod, a TC using the Doom 3 engine and excellent level designs by fans of the game. I don't know enough to judge the Thief 4/reboot but heres hoping it will come with a level editor at least so we can mod the problems out of the game. Oh and there is a extra level made specially for thief 2 that was released as a demo. Completely original and doesn't show up in the Thief 2 game.
I can't think of any other youtube channel that applies as much academic rigour as you do to video games. Well, maybe Mr.Btounge, but apart from him... I really respect what you do.
Errant Signal, another interesting perspective to look at in Thief is how the fan-made levels are crafted. Please take a look at some of the fan-campaigns and missions and compare those to the original Thief games. You don't have to make a separate video on this if you don't want to but I want to you see the effect that Thief has had on its fanbase for the last 20 years. Three in particular I want to call to your attention: 1: Thief 2X: Shadows of the Metal Age 2: Calendra's Legacy 3: Dracula Reloaded
If you loved thief 1 and 2, play the player made mods for both. There is a system called darkloader that will make theif 1&2 work in DX9, widescreen and high res. It also allows for pixel shaders and is a mod loader for player made content. There are 100's of player made mods out there, some even are the same quality as the base game. Plus there is another newer program called "THE DARK MOD". It's based on Doom3, but its now free of charge, no doom3 required. Its a redone doom3 engine and editor with a mod launcher that has mmm about 10-30 player mad mods. Nowhere near the quantity of the darkloader mods, but still worth a play through and they look more modern.
I think that theif 2's levels improved a ton in terms of layout and navigation. I rarely ever got lost or turned around when playing even the more open levels.
Real sick of taffers just not understanding the original Thief. First, you can sneak past undead just like anything else. Second Thief is so much more than a simple robbery game that everyone tries to boil it down to. Worth noting, by the way, that Garrett, being a thief, also embodies a mythological trickster archetype, just like the Trickster he fights.
I've spoken with Clint Hocking about Splinter Cell and its relationship to MGS and there's nothing there. He told me there was pressure at first to try and imitate MGS2 due to it's success, but it was really only inspired by high-agency and high-intentionality of Deus Ex/Thief, so I'm afraid you're mistaken there. As for missions like "Back to the Cathedral" and "Thieves Guild", the former was due to the game's initial concept not being about stealth but an Arthurian tale in an alternate universe where he's the villain, and the latter was an extra mission added in Gold alongside the opera house and the mage towers. While I agree in the lucrative sense that Thief wasn't the forefather of the stealth genre (that belongs to MGS), in a mechanical sense for western design I most definitely think it and Deus Ex were. Sadly, the genre has mostly lost how captivating it was back in the immersive sim days.
Campster, the reason why the Thieves Guild mission felt disconected from the plot of the game was that it was not actually present in Thief: The Dark Project. It was added in Thief: Gold, a rerelease that came a year after TDP and had 3 extra missions, that were initially cut from TDP: the Thieves Guild, the Mages Guild and the Opera House. In my opinion those missons were significantly weaker than the core missions of TDP.
The Order vs. Chaos lineage you're tracing can be seen in plenty of places if you squint enough, but I think there's a direct link here that goes back to Ultima 7 part 2: Serpent Isle. SI was Warren Spector's baby, taking over as Producer and Designer from Garriott. The plot of SI involves learning about an ancient civilization that worshiped the concepts of Order, Chaos and Balance, but fell into ruin when Balance was cosmically removed from their world, sending Order and Chaos into a cataclysmic war that saw both sides twisted and corrupted. Ultima has always been a series about virtues (and anti-virtues), and each side in this war saw their virtues (things like Logic, Ethicality, Emotion and Tolerance) twisted and corrupted in the absence of balance. The player character has to become the champion of Balance, tempering Order against Chaos and restore the physical world by mastering the metaphysical. It's not quite on the nose as 0451, but it's a Spector thematic fixation that continues through the Irrational/LGS games that I hadn't really considered until hearing you say it.
"The levels on display here are simply too large." Wow. That sort of attitude is the reason we have all these on-rails games nowadays. No freedom, no exploration, no real control, just along for the ride. Too large. Hah!
Don't forget that The Thieve's Den was not part of the original game, but one of the three extra missions added in the "Gold" version. I personally consider these missions to be much weaker than the ones included in the original game. Not only is the Thieve's Den much too large, but it's also vastly unfurnished as well, which makes most of the level utterly pointless, even from a loot hunting perspective.
There's nothing wrong with Thief's huge levels. If you're really so lost in the level, then draw out your own map. Also, singling out the worst mission in Thief Gold as an example for all of them? Please. The reason why that mission sucked is because to get into the actual Guild areas, you only have 1 path. The size and depth of Thief's levels is something that should be encouraged and built upon, not downplayed. Nothing is worse in a stealth game than a linear level.
Bruce Wayne Somewhat. Thief never really reached this point; they were big, had lots of layers, secrets, items, locations, paths, and everything in between. The only credible point of criticism for Thief's levels is that underwater sections were never fully utilized. They did make the level bigger and more varied, but they never did anything substantial with them, unlike Deus Ex 1, Quake 2, Half-Life 1, God of War 1, etc.
One3673241 a lot of the realizations LGS had for their systems, physics, underwater, sound and sight especially saw some stunningly brilliant use up to the very last minute of the game. I'll never forget how the maw, despite its linearity (really not an actual, real criticism) actually had an anti-gravity stream that you need to swim up, then drop from the roof to fall into a "bucket" of sorts. That was a moment of brilliance by LGS, and something that really never was done outside of amateur capacities since, and has never seen such firm justification within in-universe logic.
It's not that they're too big, its that they're designed in a way that doesn't make sense. It's not that the castle is too big, it's that there are hallways intersect at ridiculous angles, and rooms that aren't there with any intelligible purpose, so you have problems finding out how to get closer to the objective.
I get the feeling you played Thief so you could make a video, not because you enjoy stealth gaming, or because you had something interesting you wanted to convey.
I've been playing Human Revolution lately. It's more or less the first stealth game I've ever played, and I've been trying not to kill anyone. I killed a few people early on, but after that I decided I wanted to avoid it. It's a stealth game after all. The whole point should be avoiding conflict. It's there as a last resort, but in my mind if you do get in to that situation then you've kind of already failed.
I felt HR's stealth was okay but the game design and some design decision especially played against it in a major way (not sure if they have reworked in on the Director's Cut version). Context sensitive melee take downs that you can perform only if you have the points for it i.e. eating some energy bars if I remember correctly. It created some ridiculous moments as the animation sequence started rolling and you could hear bones snapping and at the same time the other enemy 3 feet from him didn't hear anything. Taking full control away from the player and limiting the take downs was a poor design choice. It felt as if the devs realized that the stealth was too powerful in itself and using it and Thief 1-3 -like take downs would have resulted in too fast progression and easy gameplay. So they decided to limit the player's possibilities artificially. Also the boss battles almost ruined the game for me as I almost exclusively upgraded my stealth skills and soon found myself in a fire fight with an enemy in an arena(!) that basically prevented me from using any of my skills and gadgets. I had a poor pistol, an even poorer submachine gun and a shotgun and none of them had any bonuses to them making the fight completely awful.
one of the biggest tragedies of my life is that I still haven't found the time to REALLY delve into the original 2 thief games. They're so time consuming and don't lend themselves to sporadic, interrupted play sessions. I'd need to sacrifice a whole 2 weeks I reckon to really get into them properly
Excellent review. Thief is an excellent game, despite its flaws. Good comparisons at 10:43. This is what was neglected in character development of Thief 2, Thief 3 and in the latest reboot. My only critique would be that I wouldn't say levels are too big... most of the time... and if the player plays carefully... At 5:15 , the "example" you give is actually the worst mission in the game... :( "'The Thieve's Den' quest has nothing to do with the narrative. It doesn't really add anything to the experience. It was just an hour and a half of 'this game needed to be longer'..." Very true. For this reason, Thief Gold is a mistake, imho... This is also how I feel about most Thief 2 missions.
I congratulate you for this brave review. Most people judge old games by how they reacted to them at the time and not according to modern standards. You should review Super Mario Bros next.
Hate to break it to you, but that game is one of those which created those standards, plus back then you really had no other way of judging the game, just by itself. Isn´t that exactly how a game should be judged?
CountBifford I would politely disagree - those standards haven´t got old, there are games which tried to come the way Thief had paved, but never close enough (Deus Ex:HR, or even new "Thief" which was a disaster) or always leaving something important out of the way (strange system of AI alert state/ sound propagation in otherwise well executed Dishonored - you could never properly tell when exactly the AI will see you or not and what are the factors for that) - these standards haven´t been superseded by something better, therefore they can´t be old, only not used or forgotten.
Gaming has not surpassed old standards, in regards to narrative, gameplay etc. the only thing games do better now is graphics. In almost every other way games have regressed and simplified the gameplay/narrative to appeal to mass audiences/mass money. Why do you think so many people still play Deus ex & Thief? It's because nobody's done it better.
4:30 _Definitely_ deserves the Benny Hill music! All fairly said - but *Splinter Cell: Blacklist* did at least have this full breadth of possible action - it's taken UBI *years* to (at last!) get on the 'right path' with SC as regards to its mechanics....I really hope they continue to evolve SC along these more open textured lines. (I for one much prefered it to, say, Dishonored)
I hope you can make a video on Theif 3's asylum level (Robbing the cradle). It was an incredible change in tone and pace just by level design. I have played hundreds and a wide variety of videogames, and this level is still in my top 5 best levels ever made.
Eh, I gotta disagree with you on the level design. But to get out of the way, I dislike the Thieves Den like a lot of people from what I've seen. It's a level that does fumble the steady pacing of the story. Most of those added missions in Thief Gold do that. It's not something most people acknowledge, which I like about your assessment. But these levels are not too large. If anything, the Thief series has a running problem with producing levels that are large enough, in both Deadly Shadows and the Reboot. Large, labyrinthine levels are what defines Thief. The maps with Garrett's handwritten notes (which were much improved in T2 thankfully) give a nice bit of grit to their exploration. Why these levels define Thief is that they are Thief's world-building and what sets it apart from other stealth games. Discovery. This isn't a level like in Splinter Cell where set patrol paths and scripted dialogues play- where it focuses on you accomplishing the mission, ignoring all other desires and concerns. This isn't Metal Gear Solid with its highly story-driven moments that often throw stealth completely out the window. Thief is subtle but fat. Conversations occur in hallways and bedrooms, guards mumble about recent events. There are rooms which solely serve to house notes and books. There are also those 'stuff rooms', places which only exist to hold supply crates and barrels of food- I mean the guards need to store their food somewhere. And those large levels also provide variety in their makeup. One of the most enjoyable missions is Lord Bafford's manor (first mission, anyone that touched Thief has experienced it). It includes streets of the City, a sewer system, two large floors of Bafford's manor, a personal bath, his bed-rooms, an exterior garden, and a front gate as guarded as Fort Knox. In one level you get a feel for the seedy underbelly of the City, the gothic streets, and the rich sobs that lord over everything. You meet the servants, the rent-a-cops, and even encounter some paranormal elements (the ghostly screams in the basement area). In one mission you are introduced to the world of Thief, a steampunkish mutant that is still strictly Medieval in society but possessing Victorian technology. That's a shit load right there, more than Deadly Shadow could incorporate more than most modern games that aren't open-world can incorporate. And it's filled to brim with guards, hidden treasure, and world-building conversations. And YOU uncover this. On your own. No cutscene forces you kill a guard or peek in on a conversation that hints to coming events. Even in Thief 2 you have plot points such as a traitor in the City Guard revealed through notes long before the relevant mission takes place. You are dropped into this world. You are the thief. This world is a hostile place and your map doesn't have a objective marker. Much like the Elder Scrolls series, the world (map) is your oyster. You're given a objective(s) and left to accomplish them. And the best thing is that game rewards the observant and curious. For your patience and thoroughness you get those conversations, find that extra loot, and do it all without being heard once. Old game design at some of its best. Where the developer isn't holding your hand and taking camera control away to point you down the 'correct' hallway. They're in the backstage, leaving behind goodies in a massive playground that you can miss or find on your on. It just gives the map a feeling of life. You know there are people living in the City, not just npcs and obstacles. Thief missteps this on later levels, which I'm glad you made that point. Although I'm surprised you didn't talk more about how the Undead Church totally contrasts with the central mechanics or how it seems that Thief simultaneously tried to appease both the Quake-core and this new stealth audience. I always found that an interesting topic. Or even how the entire last half of the game is filled with monsters that you CAN'T knock unconscious, a complete anathema to the core design of earlier levels. Something that can be seen as the strength of the growing army of the pagans and how Garrett, a mere man, can't hope to fight against nature with the same tricks that work against other men. I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention this. I've always got a feeling you were story-oriented. And well, I've always felt that Thief was at its strongest when the story was in those at times confusing, and other times wholly intriguing levels. Sneaking through a prison in T1, breaking through seedy warehouses in T2, the Cradle level in Deadly Shadows. I really was interested to hear about your opinion on the essence of the level design. Not the hallways, but what they mean. I actually think it would be awesome to hear your opinion on this, especially if it is a counter-argument.
The Thieves Guild mission was my least favourite mission, although it's worth pointing out this was one of the additional Thief Gold bonus missions shoe-horned in after the original release, hence why it doesn't match up with the narrative.
Thieves Den mission isn't an original Thief mission, it's added back into the "Gold" edition, which actually has mixed reactions from fans because it's commonly argued that the added missions ruined the pacing of the game.
I know its been 8 years but I still sorta love going through the theatre, even if it is to get something story specific
Yeah, the Thieves' Guild mission is best skipped as a first time player honestly. Create a save file, wait until you finish the game, then play through without potentially ruining the entirety of the game. As for the rest of Thief Gold (aka, Thief: The Dark Project), The Mage Towers feels required for story reasons but arguably far more painful of a mission. Song of Caverns is certainly the best of the three and fits with the overall pacing.
As for missions like Down in the Bonehoard and Return to the Cathedral, it's important to know that The Dark Project was originally meant to be something akin to Kingdom Come: Deliverance but in a dark fantasy setting. Thus you reach points in the games that, depending on how view it, either disrupt your stealth gameplay experience, or they give you a moment to embrace what is available in terms of combat and freedom of movement. Both are valid points of view regardless.
Overall, there are good reasons why most fans of the Thief series like The Metal Age the best. Not to say it is without flaws either, but it is a far more cohesive stealth experience. With the exception of one level that'll likely stick out like a sore thumb. And don't overlook Deadly Shadows with the Sneaky Upgrade!
Man, I love Thief so hard. I haven't played it in ages, but I never had a problem with the level size. I played through the game on Expert on my first play through, which meant I couldn't kill anyone, I actually had to exit the level, I had to collect a bunch of loot, and I had far less health.
Still, it was a PC game so you could save whenever you want.. if I remember correctly. I had no problem with the size of the levels. I love exploring in games and I'm a completist. I loved robbing places of every single thing of value.
I also loved the undead missions, which I wasn't expecting, but gave me a sense of anxiousness that games still can't cause me to have. I loved the architecture of the giant tomb (the boneyard?) I loved trying to figure out how to get through, and I'd try to sprint past zombies and clamber up to a ledge to have a horde form below me while I try to figure out where I haven't been yet.
Also, I think the thing that I found revolutionary about the game was the ability to mantle. The first time I was short a jump, but I pulled myself up anyways, my mind was blown. It opened up so many different possibilities, and I loved figuring out how to traverse things vertically.
I remember there was this one level.. I'm not sure if it was the first game or the second one, but you had to follow some guards through The City, and then sneak your way into the walled compound. The way I decided to get in was to go back and search the city for crates. I carried them back from all corners of the city to make some stairs so I could get over the wall.
What I love about Thief is that it forces you to actually try and think like a master of stealth, rather than just handing these abilities to you. You have to figure out a strategy about how you're going to complete the level (Put out the torches with some water arrows and pickpocket the key from the guard in the dark, or surprise him with a flash bomb and then knock him out with your blackjack, that kind of thing.)
What makes the old Thief work very well, is also the ambient sounds, that really add to the feeling of the game. It uses those sounds a lot more than other games I've tried.
I predict the new thief will be a turd with a thousand uberpowerful gadgets that plays like shit and looks like dishonored.
I believe the thieve's den mission was just an extra mission added to Thief Gold. I don't think it was in the original Dark Project.
Man, this is why I lament not being able to play the original version in 2014 without finding a CD at a flea market.
I mean, my overall complaints about level size and their maze-like nature remain, but that level being an expansion-based level makes too much sense and I sort of wish I played the version of the game without it.
Errant Signal
I dunno, I always enjoyed the huge levels. Having to scout around trying to find just the right way to go.
Of course I say this being removed from the thieves den mission by 10+ years.. I do remember being quite pissed off at the sewers.
I think in the end I prefer large maze like levels to linear levels, I'd rather get lost for a few minutes than feel like the game is holding my hand.
Errant Signal Your best bet is some alterations. Pressing control-delete-alt-end while in game skips you to the next level, and you can edit the amount of gold you start with. I do that sometimes to get around the Casino level
Errant Signal
Maybe if you did some research for once you'd see there's patches that restore the dark project as it was. God you're incompetent.
Errant Signal Well, even without this casino level and mage tower, in first thief there was lways too much level. And it feels like it is unnatural. I remember going from one empty room to another. Absolute empty rooms without rational reason, if only for shadow to hide.
But still, love both old Thief games. With deadly shadow I could not play, my system just refused. And new... well, for that one I should upgrade my PC.
Thanks for making this videos. It's really rare to see such work of thought with reviewing games.
I do think it's important to note that the Thieves' Den mission isn't only not completely necessary, but wasn't even part of the original Thief: The Dark Project game. It, along with 2 (I believe) other mission, were cut to make the game a bit shorter. They were only added back in with Thief Gold in 2000, sort of a Director's Cut. So, in a way, they were recognized as filler ^^
Great video! I'm psyched as hell for the reboot, lol. Two more days!
Don't get too excited. The new game has been in development hell for quite some time. I expect the worst.
Yet, all the trailers and game footage I've seen so far, I've enjoyed. I'm not saying it'll be 100% perfect, but I'm not going to be all pessimistic about it, either.
Definitely agree with you there.
Although I thought "Song of the Caverns" was an excellent mission.
One of my favorites :D I also loved The Mage Towers and, in Thief 2, Life of the Party. Also, Thief 3's Robbing the Cradle mission was absolutely terrifying, lol.
Man, you're not kidding when you're talking about excessively huge levels. It makes for an epic experience, like the "Thieves' Highway" level that has you going through a whole city across the rooftop in what would make a full game mission nowadays, only to confront you with a huge, open ended 6-story building to do the other 3/4 of the level in. At the same time you often feel like you've been dropped in the middle of New York where only one of the skyscrapers is really relevant to you.
Anyway, some ridiculously good games in there, just wish they had taught you shift-alt-w (lean forward) in the tutorial.
The best stealth system design to this day in if not the first one, one of the first stealth games ever made. Pretty amazing.
I really love what you said about how Garrett lives somewhere between the hammers and pagans in terms of embracing technology/human society and embracing nature/magic. It makes Garrett the perfect tool of the keepers.
Thief 1 and 2 are timeless classics, i replay them at least once every year.
Many people think they should prefer Thief 2's "all burglary, all the time" missions with no zombies, monsters, etc. Then they play five straight burglary missions in a row and begin to miss TDP. Mission diversity is important.
Part of why I've always liked Deadly Shadows, or the many creative fan missions, and The Dark Mod's many missions. The third game married the sensibilities of the first and second one, and the fan mission projects offer lots of diversity on their own, regardless of what engine they're running on (to date, basically three different engines - Thief's modding legacy is very healthy !).
Tovi Almozlino As mechanically incongruous as the paranormal entities were (particularly in TDP), they contributed to Thief’s horror-like atmosphere to such an extent that their removal in TMA greatly hampered the sequel’s ambiance.
ZemplinTemplar I agree that DS was, in a way, the best of both worlds, even if it were a bit too forgiving and lacked some of LGS’s attention-to-detail in the story department. The added sense of physicality (i.e. being able to see Garrett’s body in first-person) was also welcome in spite of the quirks brought upon by UE2.
I find that so many thief fans least and most favorite levels are usually both found in tdp.. With nearly everyone's favorite being return to the cathedral and with good reason while the most hated is the lost city. I don't get it, the lost city isn't perfect but it was one of the best examples of being fleshed out thematically to hear perfection what with all the readable items telling the story of the precursors room from their perspectives, your old map barely being of any help, and the very unique architecture serving to really set it apart from the modern world in the game. The first three thief games were all amazing and it's just a shame that the fourth, or reboot which is a lot more accurate of a description, took nearly everything that made the originals great and either scrapped them completely or shut all over the previously refined mechanics and lore to the point it was way too easy and utterly boring not just from a gameplay point of view but a story and lore side too. Seeing what was done to my absolute favorite game series still to this day breaks my heart and it really shows that four was a blatant cash grab taking advantage of a community that loves the true series dearly and has for over two decades now.
I miss stealth games that can get me invested enough to make me audibly go "Please no...please no...please just keep walking...god dammit"
I have never, ever before this heard someone hold Thief's massive awesome levels as a negative. To be fair the one he specified doesn't really count insofar as the kind of fare the series is known for, but still. Thief having huge sprawling level design is not a point I would generally put in the con's list.
The thieves guild mission doesn't fit in the story, but it has a reason. Thieves guild was one of the bonus missions added to the game in the Gold release.
Having just replayed T1/2 for the first time in decades, there is something subtle going on with the level design in 1 that I found quite clever. Basically every mission in the first act is a training mission without explicitly telling you it's a training mission. I mean, sure there's the obligatory (optional) actual training mission that teaches you some basic movement/combat/inventory mechanics, but each level leading up to The Sword introduces something new. Bafford's introduces the basic braindead guards, and teaches you (almost subliminally) about how the obstacles you need to overcome become more difficult as you reach your goal - you encounter louder surfaces, less darkness, tougher guards, doors that require you to acquire a key, alternate/secret ways of approaching obstacles, etc. Cragscleft introduces spiders, zombies and Hammerites (and their hatred of one another). Bonehoard is a zombie masterclass, and also introduces puzzles and complex level architecture. Assassin's is a guard masterclass, Thieves Guild is a navigational masterclass, and then from The Sword onwards you basically apply everything you've learned up to that point. In a modern game (say....Thief 2014) the designers would empower the player through an upgrade system where the player character's abilities and tools get stronger. Thief 1 taught you how to get better at the game. The obstacles get tougher but your abilities and tools are essentially the same as they are at the beginning.
Excellent review, I agree on so many points where you go into detail about what makes Thief such a good stealth game to its core gameplay, not just what made it great at the time compared to other games of the time.
Though, I wish you would (unlike to many other game journalists/reviewers) at least acknowledge there was a System Shock before the second game in the series. All over the Internet you can find references, reviews and ravings about System Shock 2, but believe it or not, there was an original System Shock; it was a fantastic and enjoyable game (I enjoyed it thoroughly, anyway).
Erm this is awkward... the thieves den mission was a bonus added in for Thief Gold. So they could not have made it relevant to the plot without changing the storyline of the (already massively successful) game. In the original game The Sword follows the Ramirez mission. Nice research...
This was a really interesting analysis, and included a number of neat points and facts--thank you for it! :D
Your description of how Thief's stealth system differs from those in other games prompted me to realise that perhaps that difference is the reason that I love Thief and Thief 2, but have seldom gravitated to other stealth games. I think that it may be Thief's specific approach to stealth--that very deliberate, considered, and vulnerable approach--that I so enjoy, and less so the "I am swift death" approaches on some others.
I do wonder why we haven't seen much stealth in the mould of Thief. :/
I'll admit that I feel differently to you on two points:
The first is that I love the size of the levels; I love having these sprawling places to explore and loot, complex without (often) becoming the mazes seen in games like Ultima Underworld. I suspect that, for me at least, shorter levels might have left the game feeling less satisfying.
Of course, all of this is personal preference; I include it not to gainsay you, not to prove you "wrong", but because I wanted to give voice to this opposing experience.
The second point is that I don't think that the game requires much combat even amongst the undead; I think that I recall sneaking through much of the Cathedral and Bonehoard levels.
(But then, I'm one of the seeming few who really enjoyed the supernatural and undead-filled levels, in particular the two that I mentioned above. I actually rather missed those elements in Thief 2, as I recall, albeit acknowledging that their exclusion fits with the plot.)
The tension and anxiety when you try to slowly sneak in the shadows on a marble floor and you make that one false step. You stop breathing and your heartrate goes trough the roof all the while you try and listen if anyone heard you, and if someone did, you feel like a disgrace. I really need to reinstall Thief 2 now. Thank you!
Nothing else has really followed Thief's footsteps properly. :)
There's The Dark Mod. It's a modification of the engine of Doom3 and it basically reimplements and improves upon the kind of gameplay Thief has.
Checkout gloomwood
@@ShahStark fucking hell, can you people stop bringing up Gloomwood in every Thief conversation, when it has absolutely nothing in common with Thief except a steampunk-y technomedievel-y pseudo victorian setting.
The "Thieves Den" level is in Thief Gold only. It's a 'filler' level because it was put in as an afterthought. In fact, I'm pretty sure the level wasn't even made by the developers of the original game.
Exactly. "Gold" was the equivalent of a DLC at the time.
Diego Floor I strongly disagree. I would regard "Gold" as being more of an 'expansion pack'.
Gold was in fact worked on by LGS, you can see that in the credits for Thief Gold.
I found the Thieves Den very exciting. Despite being a filler.
AluminumHaste Unfortunately, you are mistaken. You will note that LGS worked on the programming and some textures for 'Gold', however the level designs were created by Stephen Bell and Andrew Miltner, who were never part of LGS.
A fair review if you ask me. I agree with you about the idea that you feel more human in this game than other stealth games; there's no see-through-walls ability, no mid-level cut scenes or floating arrows pointing you to your objective. It's why I love the game. I'm also glad you called bullshit on the portrayal that many fans give of Garrett being a perfect ghost, in and out, never seen, never engaging enemies. There's a reason he has a sword, blackjack, arrows, flash bombs etc...
One thing I don't agree with is when you said some parts of the game are more designed for fighting. I've played through the game many times and never felt like I've had to fight. Sure it's possible to get caught and end up in a scrap, but there are always ample shadows, cover, and routes that allow for a stealth approach. It's a common misconception that when people see the monsters they think they have to fight them, but in reality they can be hidden from, circumvented and generally outwitted in the exact same ways humans can.
This channel is so under appreciated.
Thief is probably my favorite game of all time. Thanks for doing this great segment!
The ambient sound design in this game is just incredible.
All three games in the series have excellent sound propagation design and ambient music. Which makes the barely-there approach used in the reboot all the sadder and more inexplicable.
In 6 hours Thief 4 comes out, and watching this got my hype up by 200%
I'm sure many would disagree with me on this, but I've always liked to think of Garrett as a semi-sympathetic character, a loveable misanthrope: sure, he has a very bitter, cynical view of the world, but after saving the City (and possibly the whole world) three times you can hardly argue that he has no love whatsoever for his fellow men. I mean, you could excuse saving the world just once out of carelessness and maybe twice as a coincidence, but three times is pushing it.
Although I can't really prove it, I also like to think that Garrett is a class loyalist: he came from the streets and knows what it's like to be poor, so he's very aware of social inequality and the damage it can cause. He's a Robin Hood that takes from the rich and... gives to the people who can sell him cool gadgets? All right, so my argument isn't very strong, but still; I have a special place in my heart for Garrett and I dislike it when people portray him as some kind of Ubermensch who looks down on all of humanity.
Of course! To say he is THE ideal hero is quite incorrect, but he is heroic in his own ways.
Considering that the state of the art for first-person melee before Thief was Doom's "fistpunch!" button, Thief's sword combat was actually quite advanced, supporting left and right swings, overhead swings, and blocking. This is due to the engine originally being designed to support the abandoned "Dark Camelot" game concept.
Saw your video on Reddit. All I have to say is that you just got yourself a new subscriber. This is an extremely well made video with fantastic, indepth analytical commentary.
Very awesome timing suh. I gotta say I appreciate how it goes out of it's way to create all those different metrics of stealth, I can't say I have played a game ever where holding still in shadows made you stealthier than movement in the shadows.
I am waiting on the pile of "word of mouth" before I dare invest in the new Thief game, I am aware of it's troubled development because of you and Shamus and I am done contributing to the problem of "Pre-ordering" unlike Shamus, I hope he enjoys his "exclusive" sniper hats. D:
I appreciate what you said towards the end about Thief's contrast with modern stealth games that feature an x-ray mode. I'm playing Metal Gear Solid 3 (which lacks a soliton radar) for the first time and listening for footsteps, perching on a high branch, and using a variety of other means to scout out the area before proceeding is really engaging to me.
Had exactly the same experience. To be honest, MGS3 has some good ways of scouting enemies, but those that are the most reliable have either some drawbacks (Sonar can be heard and it shows both enemies and animals) or run on limited resource. That's one of the best examples of how to do X-ray modes, imho.
What you said about the original's movement style also enhances the horror game aspect of it, I find. There were several times in that game where I pressed myself into a dark corner and quivered while an alert Hammer Haunt or something was inching closer to me.
I for one loved that the levels were "too big." It was a little frustrating during the time, but in hindsight, getting lost in the caverns near the haunted cathedral, for instance, was a very interesting experience.
Really great discussion about what made Thief so interesting. I loved painstakingly making my way through the world.
That said, I never finished either game, because I hated the undead levels far too much.
Now I know why I found splinter cell so terrifying as a kid. Stealth was your shield for your weak character and not an aggression tool. Nice to understand the background of what creates the thrill.
So sad that Thief 2014 turned out the way it did. I kinda enjoyed parts of it, but despite the "polish" it didn't grip me as good as Dark Project, Metal Age, or even Deadly Shadows.
Sure, Deadly Shadows wasn't as sprawling as the original two, but it was still pretty good. And while Thief 2014's semi-open world felt more like a commute with opportunities for incidental, less impactful dumpster-diving, I feel like Deadly Shadows had a slightly more enjoyable semi-open world, that didn't feel like a commute at the time. Then again, I should probably do a new playthrough of Deadly Shadows to see if the semi-open world there still holds up after all these years.
deadly shadows was pretty much a dumb down over a perfect sequel for the sake of consoles and shiny graphics...
@@KingLich451 DS suffered the Invisible War syndrome. It was a good game on it's own right but a weaker successor. Although DS did not fail as much as IW did for Deus Ex.
It's tone still felt faithful to the classics however. Something this 2014 abomination strayed far from.
@@_fawkes it sucks the newer games actually brought more money to the table. infinitely frustrating
I still aret all thief games a 10. Yes, I did like the dungeony mystical levels of the Dark Project.
As others have noted, the _Thieves' Guild_ mission was one of three missions added in with the Thief Gold package (which also added the overheard dialog throughout the game). It is also the scrappy level in that it's long, not very pretty and tedious to get through.
The other two _The Mage Towers_ and _Song of the Caverns_ feature the additional keys to the Haunted Cathedral. (The latter was the opera house.)
Anyway, disregard if you figured this out by now.
Thief wasn't just a stealth game. It was an immersive sim, like System Shock and Ultima Underworld before it. The Thieves' Guild level was an extra mission included the Gold edition (essentially an expansion).
+MajorPhilGraves Wouldn't you not say the same thing every game though? Most games are design at trying to make you feel like your in the actual experience like racing game, space simulation, shooters and rpgs.
05:30 Here, you describe the AWESOMENESS of the game! I loved this level (which was added with the Gold edition of Thief: The Dark Project). Because it was so huge, complex and with so many secrets. YOU had really to explore the level and find your own way through it. That's much more of a challenge than today's kiddie-game design.
FYI, in Thief 4, there are only rare, special instances of your footsteps being audible to your enemies, like walking in water or on broken glass. Otherwise, your movement is silent. Floor material is irrelevant to the gameplay.
Also, instead of a dozen factors determining your visibility, trying to simulate the visibility in a real world environment, there are arbitrarily defined exact three states, that only take into account the darkness of your immediate surroundings.
In other words, Thief 4, a "next-gen" installment in 2014 is just a fraction as advanced compared to the first game from 1998, when it comes to the game's most important mechanics.
This is a fact that applies to Deus Ex as well. The original games are more advanced than the newer ones. Wtf world do we live in where technology regresses while it advances? It's retarded.
And that's the really sad part.
@@unclepauly10vlogs7 You can thank the inept developers and their PR team at Square Enix / Eidos Montreal who thinks Deus Ex and Thief should take inspirations from other "cooler" and "trendy" franchises from the modern times than their decades old namesakes.
this is the first time I've ever been truly impressed with how the ambitions of a games scope have aged. Since nothing really tries to take that much detail into your stealthing these days. Some of those things: moving in the dark, the noise of your footfalls and equipment, are taken into consideration in Skyrim, but can be easily negated with skill ups.
Perfect summary of the strengths and weaknesses of The Dark Project. Great video, can't wait to play the new Thief. Here's hoping they bring some of the magic back.
One of the coolest things about the thief series is that in 1, 2, and Deadly Shadows, you can finish each game without killing or even knocking anyone out (besides those who require it as an objective), there's a series on youtube by Travis Whitsitt doing just that, check it out!
Exactly. And Garrett being Garrett, he defeats all three main bad guys purely through stealth. That's still pretty unique among computer game protagonists.
This is an insightful, well-worded retrospective. I agree, no one game can single-handedly invent a sub-genre. Rather, stealth games interpret the act of stealth using differing game mechanics; there is no first nor true stealth game and thus no progeny nor pretenders. I think the Thief series attracts snobbish deference; many of its fans possess the misguided notion that it invented stealth in gaming, or that its is the only true stealth (although I've been a fan since 1998 and think neither of these things). Thief's contribution is definitely impactful, if not influential; most subsequent stealth games, as you've mentioned, streamline being stealthy for gaming pleasure and spectacle: one button kills, superhuman powers, and so forth. What you found frustrating about The Dark Project - its sprawling, erratic, eccentric level design - however, I really loved. The manor in the mission, 'The Sword' was intent on getting you confused by dead ends, fake corridors and rooms which didn't make sense; it was the Trickster's after all! This environmental storytelling of Thief's character, psychological interiority, setting, plot and so on is what sticks with me after all these years and not it's stealth, ironically enough. Anyway, great game, great video.
I love the way you talk about the momentum in the Darkengine movement system, however even outside the context of providing challenge it always was my favourite fps movement. And I've found it to be very controllable just that you have to learn it, as is the case with all movement systems. It is easier to go between games as it is less different today though, with how much feels like it is based either on the Bad Company idea, or the Halo idea.
13:02
Whoa! Did he just say that out loud! Ha!.. True...
Like people said Thieves Den was added in the gold version. One of the things I like most about thief is its level design, I like that you have to think where you are on the map and the many possibilities there are to go through it.
You're one of the few people I've heard having this problem with levels being too huge(that have played the game when it came out?).
Give me huge, complex and confusing level design any day. It would be a breath of fresh air compared to today's games linear, corridor design.
I recently got it free from a giveaway. This video makes me even more eager to finally play through it.
Personally, I really enjoyed the sprawling, difficult to navigate levels. They created a powerful sense of being lost and trapped, rather than just making me frustrated.
Almost all the problems in this game, are fixed in theif 2
Nice video yet again.
Just a couple of points about Dishonored. 1) I think it really does inherit the idea from Thief that stealth is more than simply a power fantasy; when you play a high bloodshed game you are constantly punished by Dishonored and it's in the lethal abilities (e.g. Devouring Swarm) that the true power fantasy lies.
2) Moreover, that makes Dishonored even more relevant to your point about the character of Garrett not being a super-stealthy thief, because Corvo Attano is reputedly a bloody warrior, yet the game forces you into all sorts of cognitively dissonant "clean hands" solutions.
With both games, stealth is selected by the player not so much because it suits the character but because the character's logical pathway through the game is blocked by punitive game mechanics.
+Sordel Both points 1 and 2 are not true at all. There is an ability that is unlocked that for every person you kill they turn to dust thus removing the obstacle of disposing the bodies and also with the weapon upgrades and spells you can easily kill off dozens of guards.
If the leaked alpha is anything to go by we're in a for a rude awakening.
Excellent review, I kind of agree about the consistence in which the Garrett character is portrayed. But bear in mind that although in most cutscenes he's shown killing people(unnecessary I might add), I think that was more of a marketing ploy, those we probably shown as trailers so those deaths were made to grab attention.
But the game itself is fairly consistent in showing Garrett as a non-lethal character, most of the hardest difficulties Garrett clearly says that he's no assassin and so he does not kill. So much that canonically he has only killed 3 characters (Constantine, Karras and the frozen pagan dude)
Wow. I was just navigating to your channel page to see another interesting video and what do I see? This. Uploaded 2 minutes ago. Great. (:
this game has a truly unique atmosphere and tone, sort of like a terribly depressing and broody primitive steampunk alternative dimension, it's disturbing! unnerving, i dont know if i encountered more weird world in gaming than dark project's
I would compare it to the world of Riven, the sequel to Myst. Love both gme-series ofc.
Recently discovered your channel, really good stuff. I have to disagree with some of your points though, especially in regards to the levels being too large for their own good. I definitely got lost a few times playing the game, but I thought the size of the levels was a strength overall. Picking the Thieve's Den to make your point I don't think was necessarily fair; it's by far the most confusing level of the game (the only one where I truly felt lost and frustrated as a result), and the mission which many consider to be the weakest. The size of the levels also allows for the pretty unique approach to difficulty settings. If the levels were smaller and more compact, there simply wouldn't be as much space to put in optional objectives and additional loot.
For me mechanic of fight in the game was to show the players that like in other games at the time you can kill if you want. My first thing to do when i was young was to be a badass before i learned the hard way that the best way to win the game is by stealth not fight. And that's 1000x better then doing it by forcing the player to be peacful...
Huge levels are what makes Thief the most ambitious and quality game in history, console pleb.
This makes me really want to replay the original Thief games
The Thieves guild level was not part of the base game, it's only part of Thief Gold, and yeah, it's a shitty level.
That's why it was removed from the original game.
It wasn't removed. It wasn't removed for being shitty. It hadn't been built to a significant degree, yet. This wasn't the company or time yet in gaming development where DLC could very well be sliced out and sold later.
no word on the legendary eric brosius steampunk electro soundtrack that stands unique up until today.
iam disappoint.
You're in for a treat my friend.
Yeah, I'm trepidacious about Thief 2014 being able to live up to the franchise's pedigree...
I didn't really like the first thief game. I only played through it because of respect for the stealth genre. But I didn't like at all the clunky movement and the stealth was nearly non existent (I played on the hardest difficulty though, so that might have been the problem ^^). Thief 2 though was great! I loved it, it had much better level design and they'd improved the stealth a LOT. It's not even the same game imo. But I may be one of the few stealth enthusiasts that actually likes the idea that stealth doesn't have to be slow. And that's why I think Blacklist is the best stealth game I've ever played, and I'll defend that game no matter what. For the longest time stealth was synonymous with being slow, and only in later years it started shifting to make it more accessible. And I'm fine with that, the genre needed some refreshing.
"stealth was nearly non existent (I played on the hardest difficulty though, so that might've been the problem)"
I...what? So you're saying because you had to not kill anybody and steal more that made you less stealthy? I don't get it.
I know this is an old video, but the schizophrenia of Thief: The Dark Project is mostly due to a shift in goals late in development. The original plan was to release it as a steampunk shooter somewhat in the vein of Heretic.
didn't know that! Any additional info on this?
I don't consider the Thieves' Guild mission a true part of Thief 1. It was added in the Gold edition of the game which I didn't play until some years after the original release. The 3 bonus missions never felt like part of the game for me and are my least replayed.
I keep getting a few hours into Thief Deadly Shadows, then getting distracted. I really, really enjoy it, too in spite of the tiny maps. One day I'll finish it...
After watching the video I was going to write and say I thought your mark on the games level design was wrong to start with, but then I remembered some of the earlier levels in the game, if you were not in the age to play the games when they first came out you might still find enjoyment in wondering the streets and visiting the manors to rob them blind. Otherwise I dread the thought of having to slog through the starter levels again.
On the subject of Garrett the character I think that not including the third game (weakest of the 3 that it is) doesn't give the progression arc that shows his character moving away from being a killer and thief to someone who has gone through a series of trials to become a man who has some principles and tries to stick to them (I wont spoil the trinity ending). The Player might go out of their way to slay every beast, but that's the easy route (even though you die quicker then just running away), and forcing a person to have to play on their toes makes me remember when I would hold my breath as the guard would literally stand a foot away from me and peek into the darkness, still missing me by a gaming inch. Garrett isn't a nice guy per say but he is a realist, if he sees that one side is going to end another and he cant either profit or survive under its rule he'll go and in a sense "stop" them.
For those that have made it this far I recommend the thief extra maps created for the dark engine (good luck finding those on the net) and some of the TC's out there for the old game.
Also look up Thievery for multiplayer thief gaming using the original unreal engine and
The Dark mod, a TC using the Doom 3 engine and excellent level designs by fans of the game.
I don't know enough to judge the Thief 4/reboot but heres hoping it will come with a level editor at least so we can mod the problems out of the game.
Oh and there is a extra level made specially for thief 2 that was released as a demo. Completely original and doesn't show up in the Thief 2 game.
The pure fantasy levels in the game are the best ones and that's what makes Thief waaay better than Thief II
I can't think of any other youtube channel that applies as much academic rigour as you do to video games. Well, maybe Mr.Btounge, but apart from him... I really respect what you do.
Errant Signal, another interesting perspective to look at in Thief is how the fan-made levels are crafted. Please take a look at some of the fan-campaigns and missions and compare those to the original Thief games. You don't have to make a separate video on this if you don't want to but I want to you see the effect that Thief has had on its fanbase for the last 20 years. Three in particular I want to call to your attention:
1: Thief 2X: Shadows of the Metal Age
2: Calendra's Legacy
3: Dracula Reloaded
If you loved thief 1 and 2, play the player made mods for both. There is a system called darkloader that will make theif 1&2 work in DX9, widescreen and high res. It also allows for pixel shaders and is a mod loader for player made content.
There are 100's of player made mods out there, some even are the same quality as the base game. Plus there is another newer program called "THE DARK MOD". It's based on Doom3, but its now free of charge, no doom3 required. Its a redone doom3 engine and editor with a mod launcher that has mmm about 10-30 player mad mods. Nowhere near the quantity of the darkloader mods, but still worth a play through and they look more modern.
I just realized something about modern games I really hate; all the damn text over the screen. I literally feel angry just looking at it.
Your videos are fantastic!
I think that theif 2's levels improved a ton in terms of layout and navigation. I rarely ever got lost or turned around when playing even the more open levels.
Real sick of taffers just not understanding the original Thief. First, you can sneak past undead just like anything else. Second Thief is so much more than a simple robbery game that everyone tries to boil it down to.
Worth noting, by the way, that Garrett, being a thief, also embodies a mythological trickster archetype, just like the Trickster he fights.
I've spoken with Clint Hocking about Splinter Cell and its relationship to MGS and there's nothing there. He told me there was pressure at first to try and imitate MGS2 due to it's success, but it was really only inspired by high-agency and high-intentionality of Deus Ex/Thief, so I'm afraid you're mistaken there.
As for missions like "Back to the Cathedral" and "Thieves Guild", the former was due to the game's initial concept not being about stealth but an Arthurian tale in an alternate universe where he's the villain, and the latter was an extra mission added in Gold alongside the opera house and the mage towers.
While I agree in the lucrative sense that Thief wasn't the forefather of the stealth genre (that belongs to MGS), in a mechanical sense for western design I most definitely think it and Deus Ex were. Sadly, the genre has mostly lost how captivating it was back in the immersive sim days.
Shit son perfect timing, I just started playing thief gold a week ago
Yes, another Errant Signal. I am about to watch so YAY!!!!
Campster, the reason why the Thieves Guild mission felt disconected from the plot of the game was that it was not actually present in Thief: The Dark Project. It was added in Thief: Gold, a rerelease that came a year after TDP and had 3 extra missions, that were initially cut from TDP: the Thieves Guild, the Mages Guild and the Opera House. In my opinion those missons were significantly weaker than the core missions of TDP.
The Order vs. Chaos lineage you're tracing can be seen in plenty of places if you squint enough, but I think there's a direct link here that goes back to Ultima 7 part 2: Serpent Isle. SI was Warren Spector's baby, taking over as Producer and Designer from Garriott.
The plot of SI involves learning about an ancient civilization that worshiped the concepts of Order, Chaos and Balance, but fell into ruin when Balance was cosmically removed from their world, sending Order and Chaos into a cataclysmic war that saw both sides twisted and corrupted. Ultima has always been a series about virtues (and anti-virtues), and each side in this war saw their virtues (things like Logic, Ethicality, Emotion and Tolerance) twisted and corrupted in the absence of balance. The player character has to become the champion of Balance, tempering Order against Chaos and restore the physical world by mastering the metaphysical.
It's not quite on the nose as 0451, but it's a Spector thematic fixation that continues through the Irrational/LGS games that I hadn't really considered until hearing you say it.
"The levels on display here are simply too large."
Wow. That sort of attitude is the reason we have all these on-rails games nowadays. No freedom, no exploration, no real control, just along for the ride. Too large. Hah!
Did he say that he wanted super-linear levels?
strawmanning intensifies
Don't forget that The Thieve's Den was not part of the original game, but one of the three extra missions added in the "Gold" version. I personally consider these missions to be much weaker than the ones included in the original game. Not only is the Thieve's Den much too large, but it's also vastly unfurnished as well, which makes most of the level utterly pointless, even from a loot hunting perspective.
There's nothing wrong with Thief's huge levels. If you're really so lost in the level, then draw out your own map.
Also, singling out the worst mission in Thief Gold as an example for all of them? Please. The reason why that mission sucked is because to get into the actual Guild areas, you only have 1 path. The size and depth of Thief's levels is something that should be encouraged and built upon, not downplayed. Nothing is worse in a stealth game than a linear level.
theres definitely a limit to how big your levels are before they just become tedious mazes
Bruce Wayne
Somewhat. Thief never really reached this point; they were big, had lots of layers, secrets, items, locations, paths, and everything in between.
The only credible point of criticism for Thief's levels is that underwater sections were never fully utilized. They did make the level bigger and more varied, but they never did anything substantial with them, unlike Deus Ex 1, Quake 2, Half-Life 1, God of War 1, etc.
One3673241
a lot of the realizations LGS had for their systems, physics, underwater, sound and sight especially saw some stunningly brilliant use up to the very last minute of the game. I'll never forget how the maw, despite its linearity (really not an actual, real criticism) actually had an anti-gravity stream that you need to swim up, then drop from the roof to fall into a "bucket" of sorts. That was a moment of brilliance by LGS, and something that really never was done outside of amateur capacities since, and has never seen such firm justification within in-universe logic.
The funny thing is that the Thieves Guild mission is an expansion mission, not even in the original game.
It's not that they're too big, its that they're designed in a way that doesn't make sense. It's not that the castle is too big, it's that there are hallways intersect at ridiculous angles, and rooms that aren't there with any intelligible purpose, so you have problems finding out how to get closer to the objective.
I get the feeling you played Thief so you could make a video, not because you enjoy stealth gaming, or because you had something interesting you wanted to convey.
I've been playing Human Revolution lately. It's more or less the first stealth game I've ever played, and I've been trying not to kill anyone. I killed a few people early on, but after that I decided I wanted to avoid it. It's a stealth game after all. The whole point should be avoiding conflict. It's there as a last resort, but in my mind if you do get in to that situation then you've kind of already failed.
If by "not killing" you mean using the tranq gun then good. If not then you should be. you'll be losing out on so much exp.
I felt HR's stealth was okay but the game design and some design decision especially played against it in a major way (not sure if they have reworked in on the Director's Cut version).
Context sensitive melee take downs that you can perform only if you have the points for it i.e. eating some energy bars if I remember correctly. It created some ridiculous moments as the animation sequence started rolling and you could hear bones snapping and at the same time the other enemy 3 feet from him didn't hear anything. Taking full control away from the player and limiting the take downs was a poor design choice. It felt as if the devs realized that the stealth was too powerful in itself and using it and Thief 1-3 -like take downs would have resulted in too fast progression and easy gameplay. So they decided to limit the player's possibilities artificially.
Also the boss battles almost ruined the game for me as I almost exclusively upgraded my stealth skills and soon found myself in a fire fight with an enemy in an arena(!) that basically prevented me from using any of my skills and gadgets. I had a poor pistol, an even poorer submachine gun and a shotgun and none of them had any bonuses to them making the fight completely awful.
one of the biggest tragedies of my life is that I still haven't found the time to REALLY delve into the original 2 thief games. They're so time consuming and don't lend themselves to sporadic, interrupted play sessions. I'd need to sacrifice a whole 2 weeks I reckon to really get into them properly
Welp! Now i got this eery doubt in my mind that Thief 4... will fail.
Excellent review. Thief is an excellent game, despite its flaws.
Good comparisons at 10:43. This is what was neglected in character development of Thief 2, Thief 3 and in the latest reboot.
My only critique would be that I wouldn't say levels are too big... most of the time... and if the player plays carefully...
At 5:15 , the "example" you give is actually the worst mission in the game... :(
"'The Thieve's Den' quest has nothing to do with the narrative. It doesn't really add anything to the experience. It was just an hour and a half of 'this game needed to be longer'..." Very true. For this reason, Thief Gold is a mistake, imho... This is also how I feel about most Thief 2 missions.
please note: thieves' den and mage tower are bonus missions for Thief Gold. Base game didn't have them.
I congratulate you for this brave review. Most people judge old games by how they reacted to them at the time and not according to modern standards.
You should review Super Mario Bros next.
Hate to break it to you, but that game is one of those which created those standards, plus back then you really had no other way of judging the game, just by itself. Isn´t that exactly how a game should be judged?
Tarhiel Thief defined OLD standards. Games have progressed since then.
.
CountBifford I would politely disagree - those standards haven´t got old, there are games which tried to come the way Thief had paved, but never close enough (Deus Ex:HR, or even new "Thief" which was a disaster) or always leaving something important out of the way (strange system of AI alert state/ sound propagation in otherwise well executed Dishonored - you could never properly tell when exactly the AI will see you or not and what are the factors for that) - these standards haven´t been superseded by something better, therefore they can´t be old, only not used or forgotten.
Gaming has not surpassed old standards, in regards to narrative, gameplay etc. the only thing games do better now is graphics. In almost every other way games have regressed and simplified the gameplay/narrative to appeal to mass audiences/mass money. Why do you think so many people still play Deus ex & Thief? It's because nobody's done it better.
4:30 _Definitely_ deserves the Benny Hill music!
All fairly said - but *Splinter Cell: Blacklist* did at least have this full breadth of possible action - it's taken UBI *years* to (at last!) get on the 'right path' with SC as regards to its mechanics....I really hope they continue to evolve SC along these more open textured lines. (I for one much prefered it to, say, Dishonored)
I hope you can make a video on Theif 3's asylum level (Robbing the cradle). It was an incredible change in tone and pace just by level design. I have played hundreds and a wide variety of videogames, and this level is still in my top 5 best levels ever made.
"Hey! Where'd you take that!?"
mmmmm SC Chaos theory, still one of my favorite singleplayer experiences of all time
Thief trilogy is great.
Eh, I gotta disagree with you on the level design.
But to get out of the way, I dislike the Thieves Den like a lot of people from what I've seen. It's a level that does fumble the steady pacing of the story. Most of those added missions in Thief Gold do that. It's not something most people acknowledge, which I like about your assessment.
But these levels are not too large. If anything, the Thief series has a running problem with producing levels that are large enough, in both Deadly Shadows and the Reboot.
Large, labyrinthine levels are what defines Thief. The maps with Garrett's handwritten notes (which were much improved in T2 thankfully) give a nice bit of grit to their exploration. Why these levels define Thief is that they are Thief's world-building and what sets it apart from other stealth games. Discovery. This isn't a level like in Splinter Cell where set patrol paths and scripted dialogues play- where it focuses on you accomplishing the mission, ignoring all other desires and concerns. This isn't Metal Gear Solid with its highly story-driven moments that often throw stealth completely out the window. Thief is subtle but fat. Conversations occur in hallways and bedrooms, guards mumble about recent events. There are rooms which solely serve to house notes and books. There are also those 'stuff rooms', places which only exist to hold supply crates and barrels of food- I mean the guards need to store their food somewhere. And those large levels also provide variety in their makeup. One of the most enjoyable missions is Lord Bafford's manor (first mission, anyone that touched Thief has experienced it). It includes streets of the City, a sewer system, two large floors of Bafford's manor, a personal bath, his bed-rooms, an exterior garden, and a front gate as guarded as Fort Knox. In one level you get a feel for the seedy underbelly of the City, the gothic streets, and the rich sobs that lord over everything. You meet the servants, the rent-a-cops, and even encounter some paranormal elements (the ghostly screams in the basement area). In one mission you are introduced to the world of Thief, a steampunkish mutant that is still strictly Medieval in society but possessing Victorian technology.
That's a shit load right there, more than Deadly Shadow could incorporate more than most modern games that aren't open-world can incorporate. And it's filled to brim with guards, hidden treasure, and world-building conversations. And YOU uncover this. On your own. No cutscene forces you kill a guard or peek in on a conversation that hints to coming events. Even in Thief 2 you have plot points such as a traitor in the City Guard revealed through notes long before the relevant mission takes place. You are dropped into this world. You are the thief. This world is a hostile place and your map doesn't have a objective marker. Much like the Elder Scrolls series, the world (map) is your oyster. You're given a objective(s) and left to accomplish them. And the best thing is that game rewards the observant and curious. For your patience and thoroughness you get those conversations, find that extra loot, and do it all without being heard once.
Old game design at some of its best. Where the developer isn't holding your hand and taking camera control away to point you down the 'correct' hallway. They're in the backstage, leaving behind goodies in a massive playground that you can miss or find on your on. It just gives the map a feeling of life. You know there are people living in the City, not just npcs and obstacles.
Thief missteps this on later levels, which I'm glad you made that point. Although I'm surprised you didn't talk more about how the Undead Church totally contrasts with the central mechanics or how it seems that Thief simultaneously tried to appease both the Quake-core and this new stealth audience. I always found that an interesting topic. Or even how the entire last half of the game is filled with monsters that you CAN'T knock unconscious, a complete anathema to the core design of earlier levels. Something that can be seen as the strength of the growing army of the pagans and how Garrett, a mere man, can't hope to fight against nature with the same tricks that work against other men.
I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention this. I've always got a feeling you were story-oriented. And well, I've always felt that Thief was at its strongest when the story was in those at times confusing, and other times wholly intriguing levels. Sneaking through a prison in T1, breaking through seedy warehouses in T2, the Cradle level in Deadly Shadows. I really was interested to hear about your opinion on the essence of the level design. Not the hallways, but what they mean. I actually think it would be awesome to hear your opinion on this, especially if it is a counter-argument.
Man i LOVE this guy!
The Thieves Guild mission was my least favourite mission, although it's worth pointing out this was one of the additional Thief Gold bonus missions shoe-horned in after the original release, hence why it doesn't match up with the narrative.