PROOF! Cleaning vinyl records NEEDS YOUR ATTENTION!!
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- In this video I am continuing my exploration into vinyl records playback by looking at different record cleaning products by examining their effectiveness under a microscope. Why because the cleaner the record naturally the better sound we will get by it reducing the pops clicks and crackles that can be part of the vinyl character sound to some, but to me a small amount of it is fine but an excessive amount is not. The glory of vinyl sound should be whats pressed on the record not whats stuck to it after.
In this video I am comparing different record cleaning brushes and testing their cleaning effectiveness. I am also testing the PVA glue method of cleaning records. I am also testing and comparing Ultrasonic record cleaning using a Degritter
Products seen and used in the video list here
The microscope I used in the video link here geni.us/4PHPwBA
Brushes:
Kabuki Make Up Brush geni.us/Yq9Pgk
Pro-ject Anti static brush amzn.to/3QtqaLK
Audioquest Gold Carbon Fibre brush geni.us/Ohbzkf
Hart Brush - Mk 8 Hart SS Vinyl LP Record SuperCleaner available on Ebay
Furutech ASB 1 Brush Furutech ASB1 www.furutech.com/2018/07/25/1...
PVA Glue I used, probably not the best but in case you want to try it geni.us/h8kr
The record cleaner in the video is the Degritter Mk2
degritter.com/products/mark-2/
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Thanks for watching - Terry Ellis Pursuit Perfect System
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#vinyl #recordcleaning #audiophile
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Video Equipment
Camera
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Hard Drives
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HDMI Cable
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Chapters
0:00 Intro
2:44 Why a Microscope
6:42 Day One testing Brushes
12:00 Day Two testing
14:06 Day two testing brushes
19:48 PVA Glue cleaning
26:17 Ultrasonic cleaning
31:00 Super Close inspection bonus
33:25 Final thoughts
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The HiFi System seen in this video and used for the review
Acoustic Treatments from GIK Acoustics gikacoustics.co.uk/ref/9/
Digital music source JCAT XACT S1 music Server
Turntable Origin Live Calypso with the Conquerer tonearm
DAC in the video Chord Electronics Hugo TT 2 • Chord Electronics Hugo...
Tellurium Q Statement II Digital cables linking M Scaler and TT 2
Tungsten Grooves W70 Isolation Feet • REVIEW Tungsten Groove...
Gryphon Diablo 333 Integrated amplifier
Power IsoTek EVO 3 NOVA / IsoTek Genesis One / IsoTek EVO 3 Titan
• NEW IsoTek EVO 3 NOVA ...
• IsoTek EVO3 Genesis On...
Tellurium Q Statement II Analogue Cable • Perfect HiFi Cables?? ...
Power Cables Tellurium Q Silver, Silver Diamond
• Tellurium Q Silver Ult...
Tellurium Q Statement II Digital cables
Tellurium Q Statement II USB cable
HiFi Racks - Quadraspire Q4 Evo • RACK FROM THE GODS HiF...
HiFi Racks Podium Reference.
REL NO.31 Subwoofers • REL's NEW BEST EVER SU... 
Развлечения
Hi, thanks for watching the video. Its very long and deliberately starts of slow to get you ready for all that hits you in the second half - so make sure you give the video a chance to show you some very cool stuff - or use the chapters to find the bits you might want to see specifically.
The extreme closeup near the end is very cool.
It makes me think with any dust and minor imperfections it’s a miracle we can hear anything 😂
Yes vinyl is a miracle that is works at all :) what this testing doesn’t really show is how the dust is the collected by the stylus or how the stylus rides through it or over it as of course that will effect what we hear. One step at a time to try and get this sort of thing on video :)
I thoroughly enjoyed your explorations and processes. I, too, own a Degritter, though it is only a lowly, outdated, ineffective version 1 machine (just kidding). The company's recent firmware update has created a nice two-tank cleaning process, which includes a pre-wash and a rinse. I'm using the following solutions: Into wash tank goes 1,400ml distilled water and 4 drops Tergikleen and 1ml of Degriter's own solution (I get a sudsy look if I use 2). The 4 drops of surfactant is roughly equivalent to maybe 11-12 drops per gallon, so I'm being conservative in the amount used. I always run my Degritter on the "heavy" cycle, which includes 6 minutes of actual ultrasonic cleaning. The Degritter then asks you to remove the "wash" tank and put in the "rinse" which is filled with 1310ml distilled water and 90ml 99% alcohol (roughly a 7% quantity). Degritter rinses the LP briefly then drys it. Total time is 15 minutes. I normally put a record through two of these 15 minute cycles (why not be thorough?) What is notable in the wash cycle is almost no sudsy-bubbly look, but instead a glossy "sheen" of water covering the entire record from edge to label, even on the record at its highest point of rotation. No dry looking spots form (obviously the LP is wet when being washed, duh). But I still find this look tells me the surfactant is having a "helpful" effect - and maybe this really means nothing, I know! My reasoning for the. small percentage of alcohol in the rinse is that it certainly can act on things that water alone doesn't. After the record is dry, I take it to an old gadget I've had for decades: a Kinetronics anti-static film cleaner (I'm a photographer who still has lots of negatives) which is connected to a small air compressor (with filter traps for water & dust). The compressor hose connects to a small roughly 4" cubic box powered by 120 ac. From this "box" an air tube and wire go to what resembles a paint sprayer! I "pull the trigger" on the "sprayer" and out comes a 75psi blast of clean air which removes any static charge and blows away anything else clinging to the record surface. The record then goes into a new static-free sleeve. I also give records a "blast" of air before playing and also when I flip to other side. Never are ANY brushes used and no physical contact is ever made to the record. I use a DS Audio ST-50 "gel" type of stylus cleaner and I never see any gunk collected on it since obtaining the Degritter. I only use the wash & rinse solutions for 20 passes, then start afresh. I went on-line to see if my unit is made any more and it doesn't appear to be, but others are). I do not see dust being drawn to my LP's and there are rugs all around. I own an extensive collection of early Decca classical music and pressings often had poor vinyl often with very audible surface noise (yet the records are otherwise pristine looking). My process really cleans that up nicely!
Records are charged with static electricity when placed into and removed from a lined inner-sleeve. Brand new records have a high static electrical charge from the manufacturing. They are not packaged in a cleanroom. As you remove them from the lined inner sleeve the first time, the record pull dust out of the air like a magnet.
Any friction on the record, brushing and even playing, generates static electricity. Wet-cleaning records neutralizes static electricity. Over-vacuuming creates static electricity.
Using glue on a records does leave residue behind. No matter how much glue you apply to the record surface will not all be removed. Plus it takes a long time.
Thank you for your exceptionally thorough video. Very educational. I love your scope. What brand and model is it?
Thanks very much, here is a link to the scope I used geni.us/4PHPwBA
I love my vinyl but it’s all over kill, clean by hand each time, enjoy your music and store away carefully. I’ve been doing this for over 50 years and still play albums from the late 60’s that sound great. Few pops but hey ITS A RECORD not a CD.
I’d love to see this same kind of analysis done on the much more affordable Spincare recording cleaning “machine”. Just how much difference does it make to a record under the microscope. Then compare to ultrasonic to establish the value differential or not as the case may be.
This tells me I can make a significant improvement for £25. Off to do that now
I clean my records the cheap and cheerful method Terry. Label protector for the center label ( less than £20 from Amazon), wet mixture of Iso, distilled water and a drop or two of Fairy liquid mixed up and applied with a soft brush held over the sink and given a good old wetting going around following the grooves. Wash off with filtered water, placed down onto a 40cm lint free microfibre cloth and patted dry with another lint free microfiber cloth, flip over and do the other side. Place on kitchen drainer stand to air dry. Works every time for me! Simples....
very similar to my method
Great video! Cool to see the grooves in a closeup manner. As far as cleaning goes for me, I have been using a personal tried and true affordable route that delivers incredible results. A label protector, Simple Green cleaning spray, a Spin Clean brush, distilled water for rinse, Viva lint free paper towels and a small USB compressed air blower to assist drying time. Thereafter, I always use my Zerostat, a Boundless carbon fiber brush, and Opula fluid/brush. I can't emphasize enough how good Simple Green is for cleaning. It's my secret sauce for safe and effective vinyl cleaning.
As an anecdote, a certain big band jazz musician produced her album for streaming and on CD. Given the demand for vinyl records, an LP was also produced. When listening to this LP, this professional musician said: "Ha, it's interesting to listen to my music with all this background noise". The vinyl format is great, delivers exceptional sound quality on good equipment, provides an incredible experience. But if you don't want to hear surface noise or the occasional clicks and pops, listen to CDs. No cleaning method will guarantee sound as crisp as CDs. I'm not talking about the vinyl experience, again, different and incredible. But vinyl is a format that has its imperfections, which is part of its charm. And clean your records with a brush.
When you look at the results you can see the brush does some things good some not so good, wet cleaning, especially ultrasonic is far better - then in my last video you can see how brushing can and often adds static - the imperfections of vinyl are inherent to the old technology, not from whats added to the record after I think there is an important distinction there.
Did you ever wonder why people went over to CD's? I like vinyl and have many players and cartridges but at the end I just listen to the music and dont get myself totally freaked out by some surface noise. But I admire your determination. Happy listening.
Own the Degritter myself. For what it is worth I do a very similar method, dry wipe with brush, sonic clean cycle 4, wet physical clean with brush and surfactant, second sonic cycle 4 (shorter ones used in circumstances where the record has been taken care of.), remove tank, run a rinse with distilled water that is in a second tank and finish with the air-drying cycle. You cannot get everything, especially if it's a 50-year-old pressing where there was no attempt to conserve it. Sadly, sometimes some records get mold growing on them and the grooves get damaged. However, on most albums I can get things to a point where people will ask what CD I am playing?
Nice job! I suggest to look under microscope of the record that has Tergikleen applied - you can see dirt floating in liquid
Yeah there is a video showing that effect for Tergikleen which is what sold me to try it in the first place
In a post I just made, I said, " I went on-line to see if my unit is made any more and it doesn't appear to be, but others are" That was in reference to the anti-static air gun.
Seriously LOVE your approach! Awesome work.
Well done Terry for this methodical approach to record cleaning.
Great 👍 video, Terry, thanks! 🙏
Hi mate well done on your vids. After being a hopeless vinyl junkie for many years I've stuck to a very simple practice in record cleanliness and achieving clear playback is to avoid the need for wet cleaning through proper handling and re-sleeving. Obvious no no's being of course keeping fingers (or any other body parts for that matter) off the vinyls playing surface. Avoid finger prints at all costs as they will act as a glue for dust and harden in the groove over time causing terrible playback and creating the need for a wet clean (in which lighter fluid is my go to for a quick residue free finish). Prevention is always better than cure and preventing small particles (or anything else) from entering the groove to start with will be your best defense at maintaining quality playback for years to come.
So keep record sleeves/covers and storage areas as dust free as possible + playing equipment.
Always handle your precious vinyl with CLEAN hands (even though you shouldn't be touching the record surface anyway) holding from the edges only.
Also eliminate excess static with a pass over the record surface with the tone arm raised which should earth any static through the stylus.
Hope this has been of use to yourself or anyone else reading, keep making interesting videos.
Thanks
Steve
Nice to see you have the same equipment to verify results before/after. Keep up the good work !
That MFSL pressing of Scetches Of Spain is my favorite pressing of my favorite record. Sounds phenomenal.
Great work with all the in-depth testing! It's all very interesting. Keep up the good work!
Interesting. I bought that record used for 1 euro. But I'm sure it won't sound as good either..
Great video love the detail and pics of the grooves man!,
Excellent video! I use a Humminguru and triple wash...the first tank with surfactant, a fresh to wash it off, and a final fresh bath + auto dry. The difference in sonic quality is amazing...new vinyl is often the worst (yuck) lol.
Very interesting, great work !
You've gone down the rabbit hole. To me it's like thinking about traveling through space to see if you can see the other side without the realization that it will go forever. To me, I can put up with a few pops and crackles without coming close to the rabbit hole or a deep space journey.
Very interesting and useful. Watched to the end. I've often wondered about the effectiveness of these products. Keep up the great work.
I actually pulled out some popcorn around midway... best, through explanation with a why and how to boot ... 🥲
Love your work. Wish I could send more as a thank you.
Very interesting, thanks for posting.
Jim🏴🙂
Thanks Jim
Would love to see how a Spin Clean matches upm. I'm guessing it would be very close to the Degritter.
I use a kirmuss machine. It’s pretty darn good.
Very insightful. Thank you.
Thanks for the video. Unfortunately the cost of the Degritter is too expensive for what it is. Not everybody can afford the asking price.
Great video, it has good information in it, thanks for doing that.
This suggestion may sound backwards , but try cleaning with a Degritter , followed by a distilled water rinse and vacuum with a Loricraft , which truly removes loose debris which ultrasonics detaches from the record . Some clean with a vac machine first to spare contamination of ultrasonic water , but rinse in ultrasonic leaves water on the record .
Great job, Terry! That’s some serious commitment to cleaning. I’m using the, admittedly noisy, but much quicker and more affordable Pro-Ject vacuum machine.
I use a tiny carbon brush, usually used to clean a stylus to really scrub the grooves. I move it across the surface 5mm at a time, holding it for 2 seconds each time for a new record, 5 seconds for an old one. The audible results are fantastic and I’d love to see the results on your microscope.
I am pretty sure the first record I used for the test was cleaned with a Pro-Ject VCE machine back when I first started and that looked pretty good ti me and that is what was messing up my testing initially. I dont think I ever played that record either so it was new too
Love it terry , fair play to you..❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
I found the record doctor vacuum system works really well. Also the record doctor turn table clam combined with a suede platter mat is the best combo out there imo. Great vids!
Been playing records for years and always look after them and never suffered from many clicks and pops .
That’s the whole point of looking after them but if you buy them used then it’s the Wild West, to be fair new ones as well
Terry, I was in Berlin recently and visited a friend who uses a reed turntable with a super expensive SME Tonearm and an Ortofon Anna stylus cartridge, Kondo Audio Japan equipment an Blumenhofer very high end speakers, I mentioned I was thinking of buying a degritter, literally he laughed at me when I asked how he cleaned his records, he bought a degritter yeah it removed some surface and groove dirt, lowered the noise floor slightly decreasing pops, then he pulled out a painters brush Staalmeester, he said I’ve used this and nothing no single audiophile brush will get anywhere near as good as this, it’s made from ultra fine but relatively firm material that just digs in and cleans like nothing he’s ever used, a simple but expensive painters brush?? Go figure mate
Can you tell me which type of Staalmeester paint brush you are talking about?.
The Germans don't mess about like haha .
You can see why, the brush's do move the dirt out of the grooves we have seen clear proof of that now but at the start of my video I used the microscope to record the record playing as close I could almost get it to focus on the grooves and the sheer amount of dust on the cantilever and stylus is crazy and I had cleaned the stylus only seconds before with a brush. So that is one of my next forays is looking into making the stylus cleaner and anti static or something to try and repel dust because that cant be good.
I think brushes can be great but they can also generate static so you have to think about it
@@PursuitPerfectSystem use a really good brush like a top end painter and decorators wide brush, super fine bristles, hold the metal casing as you would the furatec brush 🧹 alongside Degritter machine, so called record brushes are made from plastic, proper application brushes that top decorators use like the type my pal uses are made from really exotic materials like animal hair and have naturally anti static properties, use a zerostat gun not the furitec that’s way ott, like running that lmc5 into an ifi phono using a sup, way over the top, everything your doing is way better than anyone else is doing, nobody’s gone as far as you have, kudos to you sir for all your hard work, I kinda like the pops and bangs, kinda adds to the flavour of vinyl, I’ve been listening to vinyl for well over 40 years, been a HiFi enthusiast, changing and chopping gear since the late 80’s big raver too, so know both ends of the vinyl spectrum from DJ’s spinning and scratching using Concordes to the other end using SPU’s, actually I’m actually using the same as you right now, starling into a V10, it’s nice and bold, full bodied and clear as gin, very good bottom end, mids are bold, but I’m using ATC 100 asl using my old Sugden LA-4 as a pre but also as I wanna record to reel to reel, mate wait to you go down that rabbit hole, unbelievable sound if you quarter inch tape right! Anyway thanks for the response, I love the work you do and it’s lovely to witness you grow, some smashing banging kit you’ve reviewed too.
@@Miersemann steelmeester, they are unbelievably good, I would recommend horse hair, wide deep and tall, firmer the better, a big old paint brush but a high end professional painters brush, not some nylon 1inch crap you’d get from shit box mainstream hardware store, a proper horse hair brush.
Great comparison of record cleaning options. Since ultrasonic preformed so well, I’d love to see a shoutout between Degritter and Hummingbird.
Try a comparison video of Degritter machine vs. Humminguru machine 😅
Great video and prompts me to relate my near perfect cleaning method as he prompted me to exam in my results with my own microscope. I use a VPI following their protocol including their solution and brush. Where I differ is: just after I turn on the vacuum, I apply a disk doctor brush at an angle to the now dry surface as it rotates and spray liberally with distilled water. The brush forms a water damn, slowly releasing the clean water to the surface. Microscope shows at least 50 times less surface AND groove gunk as the best example in this video. And I rarely hear a click or pop (less than one/side). My theory is that the vacuum arm is actually sucking the fluid up even before it reaches the arm, resulting in a very high velocity of fluid flow through the narrow grove which in turn results in tremendous turbulence that knocks everything loose from the surface to be sucked away. I am a retired scientist with curiosity about what is really going on but at 79 I am more interested in listening to pristine vinyl than making mods to my hugely successful method.
the best solution in this video was no groove dust and better than brand new - if you can do 50x better than nothing congrats
@@PursuitPerfectSystem you are correct, my comment of 50x was overall gunk reduction. And while surface gunk might seem of no concern to playback, I worry that the needle can drag stuff down into the groove where the pressure and heat might imbed it irretrievably into the vinyl. Or, as chemists are like to say, you can’t tell if the inside of a flask is clean if the outside is dirty. Which raises the interesting question of why the degritter is cleaning the depths of the groove better than the surface. Particle size? Sorry if I seemed to be critical, that was by no means my intention.
There is a brand new model they just announced that brushes records first and is far more comprehensive of the water filtering - buts huge and very expensive - but maybe there is a clue there - but I agree on the surface dirt should be better but its hard to know what the exact cause is
Thanks for a great video. What if you got a test record with groves end it before and after sampling. The testing would not be so much with the microscope but rather listening and recording and comparing? Just a thought. Thanks again!
The one thing missing from your testing, Terry… the good old fashioned cleaning machine. You have best of both worlds because you’re brushing and wet cleaning at the same time. I use a pro-ject vcs and get great results using homemade solution (distilled water/isopropyl alcohol/small amount of detergent). I have found that you get better results with a stiffer than normal brush.
Wow ... THANK YOU🥲😭🥲
People like you are a rare breed.
💪🏽🙏🏽✌🏽🥷🏼
Thanks for another great video, I purchased a lazy Susan from the Swedish furniture people ,drilled a hole in middle cut the drill bit down and glued it in as my spindle then covered the surface with diy cutting mat,do myrecord pre clean then bang it in the ultrasonic cleaner, 6 at a time, can usually do 18 records in a hour to a v good standard. I wouldn't mind the microscope set up and I'd use the Susan under that . Did you get the audioquest brush in uk? Cheers!
Brilliant, thanks!
Very very interesting video
Over 30 years ago, there used to be a liquid PVC record cleaner. You applied it and once dried, peeled it off. Unfortunately, when you then played the record, there would be residue PVC debris build up on the sylus from the cleaner. So I abandoned using it.
interesting... i dont own top like kit...basically cant afford it.. i have a 2nd hand spin clean...use the solution...but i also make my own ...distilled water, few drops of washing up and a cap full of 99% iso..i seem to have half decent outcomes..i sometimes think some people go over board trying to achieve the ultimate end result...but im not a purist...but again, great video, well done
I know you mentioned wanting a visual comparison but did you hear much difference between the cleaning styles?
You should get some 99% isopropyl and directly apply, then clean with a mix of distilled, isopropyl and triton x100, and then distilled rinse, each step vacuumed off with a vpi 16.5. I find 99% really loosens up the stubborn dust in the grooves. The secret is to vacuum it off . I find it
more effective than tergitol and other approaches, even ultrasonic. But realize static electricity will immediately pull dust onto the record, so you need an air purifier and humidifier to keep static down.
The great thing about your videos, Terry, is that you often show things that I didn't know I needed to see! That can be hifi equipment with a five figure price tag or the microscopic examination of dirty vinyl grooves! 35 minutes flew past in what felt like ten. Have you ever come across the Australian product called Record Revirginizer? It's not PVA glue, but works on a similar principle (sets into a 'skin' more quickly and much easier to remove from the vinyl) - would love to see that tested under a microscope as I'd always wondered whether tiny particles of the substance would remain in the grooves, invisible to the naked eye.
I believe that's a type of rubbery glue? used in children's craft work it smells of ammonia? is that correct? that could be used. for the life of me I can't think of the proper chemical name.
Thank you for the very kind words, pretty much everything is still new to me at this point so I am gradually exploring and experiencing new things. I will look into your suggestion for sure.
Well worth the watch 😀
Thanks very much, about as good feedback anyone can give
Lol all i've been using is a mircrofibre cloth and a wet cloth for removing pizza stuff. I'm only messing around the edges of the LP world with 50s and 60s 10" and 12" - now those have some serious filth issues!
Hello You did a fantastic presentation . I am using all the methods and cleaning fluid you mention and all of my (2000)records are very clean. . There are may be five of them has a problem that I cannot figured out. These are all second hand records. There is a tiny dirt of yellowing color not larger than a coffee grind. Other parts of the record are clean. I tried using Record Doctor, AI Audio Intelligent fluid, Dust brush and DiscWasher brush The dirt stays. Typically it only three rotations of the record so it is bearable. These five records are from different previous owners.
I will try my ultrasonic machine later. Any thoughts? Thanks
Thank you for doing this. And doing it WELL! I've been playing records all my life. But nobody has ever done a thorough type of test so far, so I'd just done what everybody does. That Audioquest brush is interesting. The only thing I still wonder whether the ultrasonic cleaning can be done more affordably.. Getting a cleaning machine that costs as much as the turntable itself seems a bit much.. But this, I can work with!
I think the most affordable ultrasonic commercial unit is the Humminguru
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Yes, I'm thinking of trying one of those out. Would you be interested in trying it out before perhaps?
If they sent me one I possibly would but I am not in a position to buy one to test it, I have other things I interested to focus on more for my own peronal interest journey.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Yes, i fully understand that. I am very much looking forward to your next step to be honest 😄
Well I wasn't looking forward to watching this video but I enjoyed it. I was thinking prior to watching here we go someone with little experience talking bull but I was completely wrong. I found the video to be interesting with unbiased objectivity and I learned something so thank you. I shouldn't have been surprised really as I've always found your reviews to be honest with unbiased objectivity. It would be good to see you tackle the controversial subject of stylus cleaners in the future, in particular the subject of the polymer cleaners which you dip your stylus into to remove debris. Thanks again
Thanks very much, yes stylus cleaners is on my agenda to look at. Especially after seeing the super close up shots I got and how much dust there is going on
I have found brushes are very good at piling up the dust in neat radial lines across the record. Actually removing the dust from a record is rather hard with a brush. I think I will try the makeup brush.
Use a Giotto bulb blower along with a goat hair makeup brush, blast that line with air and sweep with the brush towards the edge of the record, works great.
A good turntable light makes a world of difference too.
Thank you Terry for this very interesting video.
Really like the microscope you're using so will be looking into that!
About dust and static.... I have carpet on my floor so there will always be some dust on my records.
However in my case I'm the one charging my records when I use an "anti-static" brush. I also have the Audioquest one but what happens is that when I've walked around the room and then use the brush to clean the record I will put a very high static charge (through the conductive brush) on the record I try to clean.
The static is so high that in some cases I actually lift the record AND the rubber mat in one go😱😅.
However I also learned that the force of the static depends on what shoes I wear (some are more conductive than others) and what type of material socks I wear (when not wearing shoes).
So after I dusted the record I need to zapp it with a Zerostat to make sure it will not attract any dust.
If a record is very dirty I use a wet cleaning machine (Okki Nokki) with a fluid that has anti static and surface tension lowering properties.
Dust , static and records. A never ending story 🎶
Totally the same situaiton here, you have to be carful as you can easily add as much dust as your trying to remove, my whole last video was about this topic and I am not sone yet, that was just the opening of my eyes to the issue and we can over play it but its a real thing and I think something we should try and minimise as much as poss
@@PursuitPerfectSystem It is a battle for sure but in the end I don't mind a little bit of dust as long as I don't hear it.
However I do have some old records in old paper sleeves that hadn't been played in years and it seems that little paper particles have "glued" themselves to the grooves.
When I play those it is fireworks from start to finish. Now I have to say it is only a few records that have that but I've never been able to clean those to a point where it gets less noisy. I tried all sorts of cleaning methods on those (including ultrasonic) but nothing seems to be able to get rid of the noise.
Have you ever had one of those records?
Can’t remember, but did you try the vacuum type record cleaners? I’m sure many would like to see you compare possibly the newly upgraded Record Doctor to the Degritter.The glue method is one that most of us probably aren’t seriously considering, but vacuum type cleaners like VPI etc have been around for many years, and are used by many audiophiles. So those two would be an interesting comparison.
It would be interesting to compare the ultrasonic cleaner to the vacuum based record cleaning machine.Ultrasonic are more expensive, so it would be good to see if they are worth the investment.
Can you please do one on a Vacuum cleaning machine. I have the project vce2 and think it does a great job but now I'd love to see it under that microscope
Love the video. Thank you. Seeing the dust and the grooves under the microscope was amazing. Have you seen the Michael Fremer, Mike from The In-Groove and another guy (can’t remember his name but it’s his video) discussing ultrasonic cleaning and whether tergitol is good/bad for your records vs just distilled water? Would love to see you test this and see what story the microscope tells!
Just a couple of observations on your video. I’m sure someone has already brought this up. Curious and why you didn’t use gloves with the glue test or put it down on the microfiber towel was it just for dramatic effect to clean it, standing up, trying to balance a record on your other hand? It distracted a bit from the experiment and your expertise. Also, I would’ve loved to have seen the Good Morning Vietnam cleaning cycle come full circle. The dirty dancing records provided this same results, but since we started with GMV, I was already a little invested in how dirty that record was. Anyway, those are minor things so thank you again. This was great. Look forward to watching you some more!
Yeah I watched all that about tergikleen but apart from theory and opinion there was nothing factual about it to say one way or another so I am running with it and whatever happens happens. I have tested with and without it and I think it cleans better with that’s listening and under the scope too.
I didn’t go full cycle with good morning Vietnam as that was my glue test record, I used both sides so I could test different methods and after seeing the result I wasn’t convinced to play the record and didn’t want to put glue into my degritter so good morning Vietnam is no longer in my collection I will leave it at that :)
That’s right! I forgot that was your glue record. Thanks for the response.
Next up comparison.. Cleaning the stylus! :)
That’s really good Terry, but the real question is how do they sound based on the level of cleanliness, the ultimate goal is click free(ish) playback , which method does the job quicker and more efficiently?
Sound quality for things like timing tone timbre and dynamics etc matter more to me than some pops and clicks but that is going to be related to other things I feel, this is just one area of focus :)
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I am with you, clickless and popless vinyl playback is not achievable as I have mentioned to you before. Btw, I have been using a shoe brush (a soft one) with some Spinclean fluid on used records and the results are impressive on both clicks and clarity fronts, the real secret is to play the record straight after cleaning, while being damp, the needle picks up all the dirt in the groove. Arduous, as you need to dust the needle in between tracks, but worth it
Alot of "white dots" arent dirt at all. Alot of the time its minor fill or stitching issues caused during manufacturing. Sometimes its seen as patches of tiny speckling, sometimes its more a line of larger shinier pearls in line with the grooves. Theres no amount of cleaning that resolve these issues. They are only issues if they are audible though. When they are they tend to produce a ripping, tearing, scraping kind of sounds.
That’s very interesting to learn about thank you
Yes, I saw that MOFI Miles record and immediately thought I was seeing the tell-tale signs of non fill. You really don't expect to see that in a record which costs so much. I wonder if it was given as a freebie as it was a return?
To be honest I'd rather have the dirty Good Morning Vietnam disc, which could be cleaned, rather than the Miles with the non fill.
What in the world are you doing with the glue method? It’s like you’re already against using it. I only do it for very dirty records. You need a clean surface so I use a clean glass table where the record can sit overnight. Apply the Titebond III glue thickly and spread with a silicone spatula. Make sure it gets all the way to the edge. Let it sit overnight and simply peel it off. If you put enough on it comes off like a platter. Works great. I’ve never had any stuck in the center. The glue you have left over is because you put it on way too thin.
Have you ever checked the results of this method under a microscope? I did 3 applications the last one was thicker maybe not thick enough but that is what I explained - this is a process that you need to master. But even if I did master it I could never trust it now based on what I saw under the scope
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Like I mentioned above, I only do this with very dirty records. Out my 4,000 records I’ve only had to do this about seven times and the results were miraculous. The records played pristinely.
I use carpet cleaner from a spray tin. It lifts off the grit!
Maybe an idea to use an antistatic device, like the zerostat 3, before the wet cleaning.
I clean my records by hand with the Knosti machine and I get better cleaning results when I use the Zerostat 3 before wet cleaning the record.
I was under the impression that wet cleaning was anti static already? I did test this in my last video but that was after the whole process. Thanks I will give it a try and see what happens
If you use pva glue to clean tiny crevices of anything you have to put it on very thick so there aren't any thin spots that remain when peeled off. For albums you need to carefully put up a "tape wall" so it doesn't flow onto the label. Lastly the thinner formulas work a lot better at getting in smaller grooves.
What if....we are looking at white spots and assume it is dust and generating pops. Could it come from the quality of the vinyl chips upon extrusion? What if the pops were generated by black spots in the grooves? The difficulty is to listen to a pop and then precisely zoom it under a microscope. Still a very interesting video. Thanks
I wish you could do the same analysis of my cleaning method to compare it to the Degitter. I'll put it below in case you decide to do more comparisons in the future.
1. Cleaning mixture: 1 gallon of distilled water with 20 drops of Tergikleen and approximately 2 tablespoons of 99% isopropyl alcohol.
2. I use 2 Vinyl Styl manual cleaners, which are similar to the Knosti Disco-Antistat cleaner (goat hair brushes).
3. In the first cleaner with the mixture; 5 revolutions of the record clockwise and 5 revolutions anti-clockwise. Let the extra solution drip off into the container when finished.
4. Put record in second cleaner with only distilled water. Repeat the revolutions.
5. Dry with a vinyl-vac. I place the record on a lazy susan that has a record mat on it and I mounted a wooden dowel for the center hole Let air dry a bit more before packaging.
I normally clean 8-12 records at a time due to fluid cleanliness and time. All records get cleaned , even new. I use a similar carbon fiber brush and Milty Zerostat before each play. It all seems to work pretty good. I also catalog my records into Discogs when they get their initial cleaning.
That would probably work very similar but I don’t have all the bits to test it and it’s a lot of money to buy all that in. It’s cheaper for you to buy the scope and test it for yourself :)
The glue method makes you wonder if a specially formulated substance could be created specifically for cleaning vinyl records. I'd think something quite effective could be developed that would work in 10 minutes and really pull all of the practically removable dirt without leaving any residue at all.
Winyl (yes vinyl with a W) it's a gel you apply like wood glue but takes 6-8 hours for the gel to set, it's expensive but boy does it remove the crap off your records
Interesting and informative. However, why do you rinse off your surfactant before the ultrasonic clean? Surely, the surfactant will enable the fluid in the Degritter get deeper into the grooves? Maybe you could try leaving the solution on the record.
Yeah that is exactly what I thought and was doing that, I showed this in my last video on the topic. Video here NO MORE Pops Clicks & Static on VINYL RECORDS?
ruclips.net/video/ltCu1MDtd24/видео.html.
Someone left a detailed message why that is not advised and they seemed to make sense with it so I changed my strategy to this.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Thanks. I'll check that out.
Is all the cleaning running up against dry air and dust that should be attacked with an ultrasonic humidifier and air filter?
Also, brush after ultra sonic for daily use
‼️Good idea ‼️Guess you could show us the results in waveform recorded before and after.
Showing the pops and so that’s peaking waveforms more and/or less after cleaning?
🚨‼️🚨‼️🚨😁👌🏻👍🏻
I did that in this video but its not easy to record it ruclips.net/video/ltCu1MDtd24/видео.html
But I also used a brand new record so its already very clean, had I used an old one like I did here I am sure the difference would have been massive
@@PursuitPerfectSystem nest best thing when the audio/song is copyrighted
Degritter is an expensive product….
I’ve got a Vevor myself, about 200€, cleaning 6 records each time and they look cleaner than new every time.
Would be interesting to see Degritter vs Vevor?
Be aware ultrasonic machines can damage records if there is an air bubble in the vinyl, happening to me a couple of times with the 300 first records.
Give your records a wet cleaning using a cavitation device with distilled water and capful of fluid that came with your unit.
what's the brand/model of the microscope that you are using? It's pretty good!!
It looks very much like mine: Andonstar AD407
There is a link to the scope in my description box - its an affiliate link so shameless plug. Its ok and good for the money but its supposed to be up to 2000x but to get that is not easy, as its designed for slides not really records.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem thanks Terry!!! It's much better than mine and It does the trick!! 🙌
@@Vinyl-Movement thanks!
I think when you put it in your cleaning fluid you need to leave it a bit longer 2 minutes say and use some alcohol 20% 99%isopropanol not other alcohols!!! can damage vinyl. another chemical you can use is vinyl clean use for your car vinyl there's one called vinyl groom, u can get it from Halfords,I find it works remarkably well leave it on for about 2 to 3 minutes use a painter's painting pad or sponge to apply.
another thing when you're lightly dusting wet the brush don't just go around with it dry! that makes a huge difference. if you want to remove the PVA glue you need to soak it in some soapy water probably an hour, or let it go around in the sonic without any sonic on, sonic can damage the records if done too much and for too long, that's not something you're going to see under that microscope, using better lights and or maybe a blue light ultraviolet-B might give you better results. don't use a sterilising ultraviolet-A dangerous to the eyes and skin. ues something like for checking money.
give that vinyl cleaner foam a go I'd like to see the results,,?? and don't forget wet your brushes when dusting.
I haven tried wetting brushes, I can see why that might be a good thing and will give that a try next time I have all the gear out to properly test it.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem ok
don't forget to give that vinyl cleaner ago it's great for removing stubborn dirt oils and grease it won't do any harm to the vinyl record.
try on a record you don't care about and you should get instant results, make sure you rinse it off afterwards so don't just put it on rinse it off with distilled water or deionised water.
That has been used in the industry for decades vinyl groom, But in Halfords its now called auto groom!
Would love to talk to you about an approach that I’ve been thinking about for comparing cleaning methods.
You used de-ionized water in the ultrasonic? Coz it looks like the record was more charged after the wash. Theres one more brush called The Big Brush costing about $45 that seems to test well. Pops n clicks not bother me much unless they actually interfere with the music so…scratches and groove damage tho….Cheers Big Ears 🙂
I defo used distilled water, I bought loads of it from a large chemicals company - how can a record look more charged? What are the signs of that?
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I woulda thunk that having so much debris on it after a wash would be the indicator? It was only a suggestion as some still adhere to the “nothing wrong with tap water or purified water" philosophy :-) Wanted to add that I recently had to clean about 300 lp that sat in filthy food water here for app. 2 wks. I bought a $1500 USD Knosti Ultra sonic for the job which unfortunately blew up from overuse but (making allowances for their age) the records played without the clicks n pops from dust or dirt and they were putrid even lost some labels however I did run them thru 3 full cycles of 5min ea. and it does inc. a proprietary fluid which is meant to remove any charge. Detractors say that cleaning fluid leaves a film on the record however I detected no sonic change from it and I use nothing else except the carbon-fibre brush as you have. Cheers! Ps you have a very interesting channel.
I see what you mean, here is the truth of it as soon as you put the record on something the static is going to change, my last video testing showed me that and I noticed that the area I was working in was effecting the static behaviour too - there was nothing I could do about that really as everything was setup multiple cameras about 10 lights so its a full on production that as one man you cant quickly change.
But also when you look under the scope its ruthless to the truth that no matter what you do there will be some dust and dirt on your records you just cant see it usually so out of sight out of mind.
The super close up video of the stylus I got with the scope showed me, as you can see dust is all up the cantilever which I couldn't see by eye and I had cleaned it only seconds before. Some of this is inevitable I feel but I just want a simple as possible, effective as poss best case practice I can follow time and time again where I feel most confident I have done the best I can with this difficult situation.
However making videos about it, testing different things is as much about the viewer as it is me because there are so many opinions and products out there - its chaotic when you think about it, especially to someone new - its alienating. I am just trying to take a fresh look at it and share hopefully useful information.
Study the glue method on some other videos. It need to be applied and brushed into the grooves so it can encapsulate the dust then layered so it is thick and strong enough to come off. I would use four times the amount of glue that you used. Set the record down. Why are you holding it in the air? It seemed you were putting on a show to pretend to make it look difficult. Put the record down. Putting paper around the edge in several places really helps get it off. Waiting too long, I expect the glue gets less flexible. I saw no evidence that you could conclude there was glue left behind as specs on the record as you suggest. I would think that compressed air might help. It would seem we need to determine what the dust is made of and then use the proper chemicals to break it down or separate it from the surface. Dust is part skin cells and part fabric fibers. Each adheres to the PVC differently. Something like a drain cleaner, "won't hurt pipes" might break down organic dust or mold. I read that ultra-sonic cleaners tend to remove vinyl from the record surface as indicated by what is in the wash water. So longer cleaning cycles remove more of the record surface. Accurate testing is extremely difficult to do as there are so many variables to control. Great video. Nice work with the microscope. I have enjoyed using mine. I found that putting glue on a one inch patch of record and looking at the exact same location with the microscope showed nearly perfect cleaning with glue.
I did study the glue method the guys I watched one held the record which is why I tried that and the other did it on the platter. I was never going to do that. I tried several different applications as a mentioned in the video. The results were mixed for me every time. I think if you only look at one good inch the method looks amazing but over the whole record it didn’t look as effective to me as ultrasonic cleaning which was fully uniform not requiring any specific technique to be perfected to get that result. That was my honest assessment of it. I think if it wasn’t for cost no one would prefer it as a method of cleaning anymore
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I appreciate the effort. Not only doing something, but recording and publishing it as well! Experiments are incredibly hard to do in a controlled repeatable fashion. A controlled experiment with a statically charged piece of plastic measuring dust levels practically needs a clean room. I usually fail in my work trying to improve my audio, over and over again. It really looks like you didn't get the glue into the groove. I never see any videos where the glue gets carefully brushed into the groove. When I tried it with a really trashed record that I bought at a thrift store there was zero dust left when I looked under the microscope. Zero. Cleaner than how your record looked coming out of the machine. I also have access to a great machine, but I found the glue to work better. You really need a clean room to keep dust off the record in the first place. I also found that poster putty does a good job of removing dust. It is a lot of work to get it warm and mash it into the grooves but it cleaned just about as well as the glue. I am working towards ripping some disks from the 60's and 70's digitally and processing them to remove noise and distortion. It requires a special flat frequency response preamp, high quality A2D and software. You might enjoy looking at the Stereo Lab products at pspacialaudio.com to see how to do the highest quality vinyl rips to digital for archival and restoration purposes.
My mum used to pick up her Shirley Bassey albums and Blow the dust off..
What is the record clamp the hex one
It’s the Hexmat Molekula I discuss it in this video here 3 EASY WAYS I got BETTER ViNYL RECORDS sound quality
ruclips.net/video/L2ItoorJXZI/видео.html
@@PursuitPerfectSystem thank you
Interesting.There is the question of effort versus effectiveness. Currently, I use the Degritter with a wash and a rinse cycle. For the wash cycle, I used a bit of Turgikleen. In your case, you use the Turgikleen separately and then use the Degritter cleaning solution followed by the rinse cycle. I only follow this wash and rinse cycle after buying a new or used record. I don't bother using a brush. It might be useful to compare the results of using the Tergikleen separately versus as part of the wash cycle. If the results are similar, it questions the need for the extra effort of doing it separately with a brush.
I was using the tergikleen in the machine, but I was advised by someone not to do that as apparently its not good for the machine long term so I changed to doing it pre wash
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Thanks. Good to know.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem The question I then have is whether you clean the record after applying the Tergikleen, prior to using the Degritter, as the Tergikleen will get into the Degritter and you will have the same issue.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem We are only talking about 7 drops of Tergikleen per tank.
That is exactly what I thought too hence I was using it straight in the machine for the wash. I was told your supposed to get it off before it gores in the machine so that is why I was spraying distilled water on the record to rinse it off, so the record gets a tergikleen wash and brush then rinsed off then into the machine using the included Degritter fluid. This seemed to do a very good job. Could I do more maybe, but I havent really tested much more than this yet
The good morning Vietnam record looked like a deep field picture from the Hubble telescope
😂
Those tiny white marks that remained and were non-removable that could not be seen with the naked eye are likely either flaws in the production or a symptom of record wear over time.
What record clamp is that please Tel?
Its the Hexmat Molekula, I talk about it in a bit more detail in this video ruclips.net/video/L2ItoorJXZI/видео.html
Hi, thank you for the video. You missed an interesting brush: the Ursa Major brush coming from Berlin. Also as I own the “Hart Audio SS Vinyl Super Cleaner LP Record Vinyls Brush Cleaner” myself, I have to say you did not use it correctly. Please watch their video. You have to brush slowly to one point on the LP and then brush the obviously gathered dust away from the center.
I think using the brush differently wouldn't have mattered here as normally your trying to remove the surface dust as that is all you can see, so trying to pile it and remove after makes sense for listening. But I wasn't doing that I was focusing on a particular area of the record and that was well brushed you can see that, and the audioquest brush credit where credit is due performed better.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Applying pressure to the brush to allow the bristles to enter the groove yields a clean groove as well as the surface. It works Terry I assure you as our videos on David Hart and buyer feedback on our sales platform is entirely and strongly positive. Please try again with the record on the TT. Use a record clamp/weight and manually turn the record a quarter turn at a time backward and forwards with pressure on the brush. A breath of condensation on the pile of dust collected under the brush and sweeping up and through the dust will remove all groove and surface debris entirely. Giving a perfectly clean record. Use an LED torch to show you the dust has been removed. No clicks and pops I promise. It is a comprehensive clean if you do it right. Please give it another chance as per our instruction videos and reply here. Thank you in advance.
As my last video showed if you brush the record on the TT there is a strong chance you add static to it that you cant then remove, if you brush before you can kill the static 100% nearly every time so brushing on the TT is counterintuitive to me as whatever you take away might come straight back.
I tested on the TT for the whole first day and didn't see hardly any difference made from any of the brushes, except the audioquest. I can only assume this is why. I am where I am with it at the moment and I am always honest about it.
Carbon brushes statically charge the record from the body through the brush metal and carbon connection to the vinyl. The Hart brush has unique anti-static polymer fibers. The SS stands for "Stop Static" and a breath of condensation and a through and up motion of the brush removes the dust pile on the vinyl under the brush. You need to push the dust out of the groove with pressure on the brush that you can control by holding the edge of the clamped record.
Don't forget to clean the stylus, flux ultrasonic stylus cleaning machine is worth a look and they also do a record vacuum cleaner where it works or not I don't know about the vacuum the stylus does
After seeing the super close up of the stylus playing, I used the scope to do that video you can see an insane amount of dust on it, looking at cleaning the stylus is high on my priority list now
You'll be surprised how many people forget the stylus, the gum or putty stuff available leaves a sticky residue over time which collects more dust etc the flux gently vibrates the dirt off the stylus tip and I also gently brush the stylus after every side played
I was just looking at their video for it, it doesn't show you very much but it seems pretty cool and I will see fi I can get one
Look forward to the video, why not see if any dealers have one you can borrow ?
Simple green.
And how do you clean these now dusty brushes from transferring old dust to new slightly dusty vinyl😅
Yes that is a thing to think about and its impossible to see if you have got the dust off and not transferred it across. I think brushing off the TT lowers the chance of moving dust across personally
Lint rollers are great for cleaning brishes.
Assume: Pronounced assume not ashume. Surely you use surfactant in the wash mix, it's then removed/rinsed in the second tank? All ultrasonic cleaners need surfactant's in the wash mix to work properly.
To get rid of poppsnclicks, spray water on your record while playing it👍
Record Vacs!
Listening vinyl records without pops and clicks here and there would be boring. You can go digital for boredom.
i use a Disco Antistat cleaning tank with VinylShelter cleaning fluid, i have cleaned all my records using this system and it leaves records perfectly clean and also de-staticises all records including new records, yes new! For heavily soiled records i scrub them with a Tonar Wetgoat goats hair brush using the VinylShelter fluid. For brushing dry records use a microfibre record brush, not your wife's make up brush! Ultrasonic cleaning machines are an expensive waste of electricity. Pva glue is a definate no no !!!!
To be fair the waste of electricity gives a near perfect result examined under the scrutiny of a microscope, have you compared under a scope to your method to know it’s a waste ? By eye you can’t see if the record is clean as you can only see some of what’s on the surface and the video shows we don’t always get it all
Ultrasonic cleaning machines are the best way of cleaning vinyl records & Compact Disc, in my experience 😁