While I know there have been upgrades to both airframes, this was settled at Red Flag exercises in the 80's and 90's. F-15's tear F-16's up BVR. F-16's are superior in a turning fight.
F-15EX with side tanks removed has better agility and better thrust than F-15C. Probably would give F-16 a stronger challenge in WVR fights and completely dominate it in BVR.
@counterair173 According to Eagle II pilots that have flown both, even with the weight the F-15EX is much more agile. This is primarily due to the new fly by wire system with relaxed flight restrictions but the new engines also help a lot with a better power curve. The beefier structure also allows higher g maneuvers, up to even 12g in some conditions. The limit is the pilot more than the aircraft now. F-15EX as is comes very close to the F-15C for agility. Drop the weight of the side tanks and it can surpass it.
One thing I didn't point out in the video is that the F-16 we have in game is a fairly new one (early 2000's). The Eagles are the original 1980's variants, so that will make a difference I suspect.
Given the 15's payload advantage (weapons and fuel), IRL they simply stay out of range of the 16's until fuel becomes a problem then rush in for kill shots.
This did seem fairly evenly matched, and I think you guys nailed it as Super Cap touched on it in pre-flight and Matrix did in post flight, the weapons are the same, and that is a HUGE equalizer. I think you guys also said it well that it depends on the scenario which aircraft might be better suited. I think about the fuel first and foremost. For instance, in that second round Dark said he was almost bingo fuel by the time you guys were closing on Simba at the end of the round. I think that if I was an Eagle driver flying against Falcons, I would make them chase me and burn up fuel they can't afford to burn!! I'm not saying just run away, but rather go into the round looking to stretch it out just to play to the advantage of the airframe. I know that doesn't quite make for sexy or timely RUclips videos, but I bet if the Eagles just fired and withdrew... repeat, the F-16's would have to eventually RTB and the F-15's could just chase them down, especially in these scenarios where you wouldn't have to worry about SAM's or reinforcements!! These close in battles are always a blast to watch!! Damn fine flying as always Grim Reapers!!! You guys are all rockstars in my opinion, and Cap, I hope the insulation is sorted out and your man cave is a comfortable temperature now!!!
Ive noticed you guys seem quite frank talking about your skill levels and experience. Its really wholesome tbh, is this the normal tone among competitive/competitive adjacent players? There doesnt seem to be any judgement attached to skill deficiencies which makes people honest about their place in a match. Its very cool.
03:27, zero circle fight! ;-) There is a precedent, I believe that was the tactic of choice (Red flag I think) by UK tornadoes jets against a teen series fighter. Thanks for all your efforts on this one!
My prediction at 4:27 is that if the F-16c doesn't have the Mini-SPY6, there is no way it is going to be the air superiority fighter. Yep, radar is the biggest game changer for Generation Four Aircraft. Also, the Sidewinder 9X has been available since 1978, even though production wasn't up to speed till the late 1980s. I don't care what you have read before because you never had the need to know. Why because the other name for the Sidewinder 9M is the Stinger missile.
Hello Cap, I've recently watched the John Travolta movie "The Shepherd", where (spoilers) a pilot is guided through bad weather by another pilot flying alongside. I think it would be interesting to try to replicate this, perhaps by having one person be blindfolded, whilst the other guides them to a safe landing? Thanks.
I'll do you one better: blindfolded carrier landing. In 1950, during the Korean War, Edward Jackson landed a Panther on USS Philippine Sea, despite suffering injuries that left him blind and barely conscious. Mad props to him, his wingman Dayl Crow, and LSO Les Bruestle.
@MWSin1 so many good stories from Korea, John Glenn and Ted Williams flew together in Panthers. Neil Armstrong had a good chunk of one of his wings ripped off from anti aircraft wires.
The F-15 and F-16 are the fighters I "grew up" with. They were the premier USAF fighters when I was a kid. The F-4s were on their way out, and the F-22 and F-35 hadn't even been announced/created yet. A request for a BVR Face-off, the Eagle family vs. The Flanker clan, please?
I'd be a tad skeptical at anything which showed the F15 to be unable to at least get a few kills, possibly fight engagements to a standstill. Those things were pretty much the premier air superiority fighter of their day.
Viper wins again! Another entertaining video to complete the series. Loved the spliced comms between the two teams on the final round; added dramatic tension.
Question: Given that these missiles P off into space and drop down on their targets, how do you get warnings saying "Missile X o'clock low", is it with respect to the plane?, so if you were inverted, something coming out of space directly above you would still report as low?
@mortoopz WEZ is the Weapon Employment Zone, if the enemy is in those parameters you can launch the weapon. TWS is a radar mode which is often called a „soft lock“ because it only tracks its targets and doesn‘t hardlock it, so you can aquire many targets at once and the enemy will only receive the pings but not a lock warning or missile launch warning until the missile goes active in the case of the fox 3 (Amraam).
There needs to be a re-modernized SU 57 vs4th gen. Especially after the RCS update which is more like 0.08 square meters. I recommend sticking to 0.08 coz there's no way even the coated SU 57s are stealthier than J 20s (0.05).
question, as one who doesn't play, does DCS have counter measures for a carrier? if so, can a mod be made for a large (half carrier size) mylan balloon for radar spoofing? Could you try that?
If nothing else, thank you so much for the reminder why I will NEVER pay money for this atrocity of a map. Seriously, the ground textures look like something out of the late '90s. Good fight though!
In the game, and it's a game you are playing, not real life, the F16 is a professional flight model and I believe the F15 isn't, how does this effect combat (if at all). Does flying the F15C give an ingame advantage due to its 'arcade' flight model?
Great point. I've flown both a lot and I think the F-16 has an advantage with its FM. The F-15C always feels a bit restricted and clunky in comparison.
@@grimreapers I wonder how things would play out if you used the F15E, i understand the E is very different due to its specific role and will (hopefully) be modelled to reflect that, and that its in early access. Ive flown 1v1 against both in the F16, pistols and knives only, and the F15C seemed a bit more nimble but that was a few updates ago.
Its not fair F16 was designed from the ground up to be lighter and cheaper than F15 so it can be used in large numbers so realistically it should have been something like 6v3
Could you make a scenario in which furries have done retaliatory strikes after the bombing of anthrocon? (I am a furry myself, I give full permission to use this.)
While I know there have been upgrades to both airframes, this was settled at Red Flag exercises in the 80's and 90's. F-15's tear F-16's up BVR. F-16's are superior in a turning fight.
F-15EX with side tanks removed has better agility and better thrust than F-15C. Probably would give F-16 a stronger challenge in WVR fights and completely dominate it in BVR.
@counterair173
According to Eagle II pilots that have flown both, even with the weight the F-15EX is much more agile. This is primarily due to the new fly by wire system with relaxed flight restrictions but the new engines also help a lot with a better power curve. The beefier structure also allows higher g maneuvers, up to even 12g in some conditions. The limit is the pilot more than the aircraft now. F-15EX as is comes very close to the F-15C for agility. Drop the weight of the side tanks and it can surpass it.
One thing I didn't point out in the video is that the F-16 we have in game is a fairly new one (early 2000's). The Eagles are the original 1980's variants, so that will make a difference I suspect.
Given the 15's payload advantage (weapons and fuel), IRL they simply stay out of range of the 16's until fuel becomes a problem then rush in for kill shots.
Absolutely yes they are tactically superior, but obviously we want to force the fight.
Request: scenario proving the viability (or not) of the concept of using the F-15EX as a "missile truck" for missiles directed by F-35(s). Thanks!
Vs. Flankers and J-20
agreed!
I've tried running this but the datalink provided by the F-35/F-22 doesn't work well enough in game yet and so it doesn't really work yet.
4:14 in - Super Cap says something nice and calls it a Hornet and not a BOG - Great start lol
This did seem fairly evenly matched, and I think you guys nailed it as Super Cap touched on it in pre-flight and Matrix did in post flight, the weapons are the same, and that is a HUGE equalizer. I think you guys also said it well that it depends on the scenario which aircraft might be better suited. I think about the fuel first and foremost. For instance, in that second round Dark said he was almost bingo fuel by the time you guys were closing on Simba at the end of the round. I think that if I was an Eagle driver flying against Falcons, I would make them chase me and burn up fuel they can't afford to burn!! I'm not saying just run away, but rather go into the round looking to stretch it out just to play to the advantage of the airframe. I know that doesn't quite make for sexy or timely RUclips videos, but I bet if the Eagles just fired and withdrew... repeat, the F-16's would have to eventually RTB and the F-15's could just chase them down, especially in these scenarios where you wouldn't have to worry about SAM's or reinforcements!! These close in battles are always a blast to watch!! Damn fine flying as always Grim Reapers!!! You guys are all rockstars in my opinion, and Cap, I hope the insulation is sorted out and your man cave is a comfortable temperature now!!!
I've said for as long as I've played DCS, that if F-15 had datalink, there'd be no point in flying anything else as air superiority. 😁
edit: spilling
In that case, maybe it's a good thing we don't have it? Evens up the playing field...
@@grimreapers I feel like they never implemented it for game balance. Hence why DCS is a game after all. 😋
Wait for the eurofighter ;)
Ive noticed you guys seem quite frank talking about your skill levels and experience. Its really wholesome tbh, is this the normal tone among competitive/competitive adjacent players? There doesnt seem to be any judgement attached to skill deficiencies which makes people honest about their place in a match. Its very cool.
03:27, zero circle fight! ;-) There is a precedent, I believe that was the tactic of choice (Red flag I think) by UK tornadoes jets against a teen series fighter. Thanks for all your efforts on this one!
My prediction at 4:27 is that if the F-16c doesn't have the Mini-SPY6, there is no way it is going to be the air superiority fighter. Yep, radar is the biggest game changer for Generation Four Aircraft.
Also, the Sidewinder 9X has been available since 1978, even though production wasn't up to speed till the late 1980s.
I don't care what you have read before because you never had the need to know.
Why because the other name for the Sidewinder 9M is the Stinger missile.
Are you suggesting that the AIM-9M (190 pounds) is the same missile as the FIM-92 Stinger (35 pounds including launcher)?
@@MWSin1 It is not quite the same missile body because because of the ground launch booster, but the seeker and warheads are identical.
Strike Eagles also have jamming. No idea how you model it unless you have a Growler as similar. They also have more power than a "C"
Fair comment.
Two of the sexiest fighters ever. I win either way.
Fair comment.
No love for the F35….PS I agree it’s ugly 😂
No F-14s? I mean, i don't expect them to be competitive, it's just fun watching you guys fight!
Hope they add the GE 110-229 engine to the F-15E plane in DCS.
F110 GE129
32:45 Simba (Jester - TOPGUN) You can run, but you can't hide now. 😂😂 Merica!
Hello Cap, I've recently watched the John Travolta movie "The Shepherd", where (spoilers) a pilot is guided through bad weather by another pilot flying alongside. I think it would be interesting to try to replicate this, perhaps by having one person be blindfolded, whilst the other guides them to a safe landing? Thanks.
I'll do you one better: blindfolded carrier landing. In 1950, during the Korean War, Edward Jackson landed a Panther on USS Philippine Sea, despite suffering injuries that left him blind and barely conscious. Mad props to him, his wingman Dayl Crow, and LSO Les Bruestle.
@@MWSin1 Wow, that's incredible, I'll look it up.
Sounds like I need to watch this first :)
@MWSin1 so many good stories from Korea, John Glenn and Ted Williams flew together in Panthers.
Neil Armstrong had a good chunk of one of his wings ripped off from anti aircraft wires.
The F-15 and F-16 are the fighters I "grew up" with. They were the premier USAF fighters when I was a kid. The F-4s were on their way out, and the F-22 and F-35 hadn't even been announced/created yet.
A request for a BVR Face-off, the Eagle family vs. The Flanker clan, please?
I'd be a tad skeptical at anything which showed the F15 to be unable to at least get a few kills, possibly fight engagements to a standstill. Those things were pretty much the premier air superiority fighter of their day.
I think when we come back in a year with the Eagle datalink, I think that will add 20+% to the Eagle's performance overall.
Viper wins again! Another entertaining video to complete the series. Loved the spliced comms between the two teams on the final round; added dramatic tension.
How about the flanker vs the jf 11 to see if any changes or improvements between them
Question: Given that these missiles P off into space and drop down on their targets, how do you get warnings saying "Missile X o'clock low", is it with respect to the plane?, so if you were inverted, something coming out of space directly above you would still report as low?
Oh, and what are WES/WEZ and TWIS/TWIZ?
@mortoopz
WEZ is the Weapon Employment Zone, if the enemy is in those parameters you can launch the weapon. TWS is a radar mode which is often called a „soft lock“ because it only tracks its targets and doesn‘t hardlock it, so you can aquire many targets at once and the enemy will only receive the pings but not a lock warning or missile launch warning until the missile goes active in the case of the fox 3 (Amraam).
@@michagysin3082 Thank you very much.
"Track While Scan" Once I knew how to spell it, easy find :)
Yeah if the plane is inverted and it gets "missile x o'clock low" it's reading a track from its lower MWS sensors and therefore from above.
How embarrassing for matrix. They even changed the teams.
Not easy getting old, I know…
one of the best aviation youtube channels delivers once again
Thought the eagle was going to wipe the floor with the falcon…turns out not so much!
There needs to be a re-modernized SU 57 vs4th gen. Especially after the RCS update which is more like 0.08 square meters.
I recommend sticking to 0.08 coz there's no way even the coated SU 57s are stealthier than J 20s (0.05).
Will try
question, as one who doesn't play, does DCS have counter measures for a carrier? if so, can a mod be made for a large (half carrier size) mylan balloon for radar spoofing? Could you try that?
If nothing else, thank you so much for the reminder why I will NEVER pay money for this atrocity of a map. Seriously, the ground textures look like something out of the late '90s. Good fight though!
Any chance of getting the F-15 Active (or maybe it's STOL/MTD) on DCS? It's an F-15 prototype with canards and thrust vectoring
I was at Edwards during the Active program. It was beautiful to watch while doing maneuvers.
The E model would have won with a real pilot
In the game, and it's a game you are playing, not real life, the F16 is a professional flight model and I believe the F15 isn't, how does this effect combat (if at all). Does flying the F15C give an ingame advantage due to its 'arcade' flight model?
Great point. I've flown both a lot and I think the F-16 has an advantage with its FM. The F-15C always feels a bit restricted and clunky in comparison.
@@grimreapers I wonder how things would play out if you used the F15E, i understand the E is very different due to its specific role and will (hopefully) be modelled to reflect that, and that its in early access. Ive flown 1v1 against both in the F16, pistols and knives only, and the F15C seemed a bit more nimble but that was a few updates ago.
Its not fair F16 was designed from the ground up to be lighter and cheaper than F15 so it can be used in large numbers so realistically it should have been something like 6v3
Fair comment.
😎😤😤
Could you make a scenario in which furries have done retaliatory strikes after the bombing of anthrocon?
(I am a furry myself, I give full permission to use this.)
I think things are way too tense to even run such a scenario. Good luck and Slava Furbibia.
Hello.
Hello
Hello
Hello
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first
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The creativity in this video is mind-bending; it's like a burst of inspiration for my day.👅