The super destroyers could lower their altitude immediately after deploying the first helldive and raise back up to low orbit when their helldiver strike team has finished the objective and extract. Could be why you lose stratagems when you run out of time. Destroyers have to pull out around that time to reduce chances of being smited out of the sky.
I believe this is actually mentioned in the game somewhere, but that is basically the case. The super destroyers can only hold "operational" altitudes for limited times, hence they leave the AO when the timer runs out. Because they can't stay at sub orbital altitudes for too long, before needing to climb back up into orbit.
Why did I first read that as Super Star Destroyers instead of Super Destroyers? Now I can't get the image out of my head of the rebels fighting helldivers.
This is EXACTLY how it works. They dive in low to give more accuracy and less travel time for their support. The mission clock exists tells you how long it can last in Low Orbit because then the reverse is true. It's a bigger easier target for ground to orbit weapons so it can only stay that low for so long. The longer it stays there, the more fire it's going to eat and eventually something is going to punch through its armor. So it HAS to pull out or risk destruction. Janovich covers this in his Vrak's series and it comes up during the Red Scorpions Arc.
The in-universe explanation for why missions have time limits is related to the "not actually in orbit" fact. They say the ships can only stay that low for a short period of time before going back to a higher altitude
Supporting this is the the chatter in post-mission NPC dialogue that say that the main enemy forces weren't able to react before they got out, implying that Helldivers are performing raiding operations that blitz the objective and extract (usually in less than 40 minutes) so they're gone before the enemies are able to send a reaction force big enough to overwhelm them. This is supported by the types of objective we're doing; seek and destroy or extraction/manipulation of objectives (like launching the ICBM or rescuing trapped personnel) rather than trying to take and hold an objective for more than a few minutes. This presumably also applies to fast-moving anti-capital ship assets able to harm a super destroyer, like the automaton equivalent of an F/A-18 Hornet.
@@VincentPolehwidhiThere's also the Blitz modifier, which reduces the time even further, down to 15 minutes usually to represent a fully prepared QRF force.
In the novel of Starship Troopers, the Mobile Infantry are dropped from orbit in essentially egg-shaped blobs of ablative goo, that's been hardened around them. The layers burn away as they fall, and by the time it's completely burned away they're low and slow enough to switch to their parachutes
Weren’t they also “stealth” and used in tandem with dummy pods to minimise losses during the descent? I remember a section of the book talking about the method of minimising casualties but not the details.
@@peteradvisers2684 Ablative layer for re-entry, low signature layer below that which splits in to chaff at a lower altitude to draw fire before they deploy a ribbon chute (or chutes) to slow down before finally stopping with the jump jets on the suit IIRC. Definite on the first three bits, definitely remember the ribbon chute being mentioned as a "jerk" before it shredded but can't remember the rest of the details as clearly. Heinlein was an odd bloke but he definitely came up with a few things, travelators and waldos being prime examples.
@@peteradvisers2684the latter part of the book had the troopers armour itself literally invisible at the troopers will, intangible as well. Rico's unit uses the next gen in a ship board battle and drops through decks to appear behind hostiles, which is a part of the next gen drop pod stealth system as well.
When you hit 5 minutes left in a mission on helldivers the radio operator warns that they can't stay that low for much longer, so I think the super destroyers are going sub orbital and then burning anti-normal(?) to stay up while providing support. Hence the time limit on missions from a lore perspective, if I understand right
@@geoffreyporter6373It maybe anti-normal burn cuz he already said it sub orbital. If you didn't burn in anti-normal (blackward burn) your ship should move forward automatically cuz orbital mechanic is sh*t if you only burn anti-radial. (From KSP guy~)
@mayshiratoshi6390 however, normal and anti normal burns are pointing parallel with the surface of the body you are orbiting and perpendicular to the current direction of travel.
@@geoffreyporter6373 You can stay still in orbital mechanic if you burn in anti-normal and your AP (apoapsis) is so high up in altitude (like to the point it already in stituation of escape velocity) in orbital mechanic. It seem miracle but yes it real. on other hand burning only in anti-radial you will move on normal trajectory of your space craft no matter what you try. Except you orbital movement is gone and left with only AP then yes. You can hover by burning anti-radial (or anti gravity burn or hover whatever you use in that term()
Halo ODST is explained as you have to get from orbit to ground no matter if you take a drop ship or pod, but a Pod is a smaller target, harder to hit, and each pod hit is only 1 soldier, vs however many are loaded up in your drop ship. Even still, it's a high attrition MOS
@@Derangedpostman14 Warhammer has what are called Deathstorm drop pods, pods that have automated weapons like missile launchers and assault cannons. A nice way to clear give a quick reacting force an nasty surprise or establish a frontline while the troops form up.
@@Derangedpostman14not only can you do that, but you can also fire a lot of junk alongside the pods and even design the pods to break apart in such a way to add even more potential targets to an enemy's radar. This is actually pretty much how they are described in the starship troopers book, and even then the book acknowledges casualties.
There's a fun bit in one of the Halo novels where an ODST pod is used to drop in a Mongoose quad bike, which one of the Spartans involved in the operation then proceeds to pick up and use as a melee weapon.
@@BlueTeam-John-Fred-Linda-KellyIs it really there? I mean, it's definitely in one of the books before 2011, because I remember it. But wasn't the whole action of Cole Protocol, when it comes to spartans, limited to the asteroid field?
@@fatespiker "Now here are we with still another system . . . and our system works quite well. Many complain but none rebel; personal freedom for all is greatest in hsitory, laws are few, taxes are low, living standards are as high as productive permits, crime is at it's lowest ebb." If you read any part of that paragraph and thought the system was fascist, you need you head examining. - You can't complain about the system of government in a fascist society. - You have no freedom in a fascist society. What he described is a libertarian paradise. Heinlein being an arch libertarian himself. If you want empirical evidence that the system isn't fascist. Then take a look at Switzerland, they use the same constitution.
you know people always look at their own ideology and dont see the fascism in it. There are aspects of such which are libritarian there are many that are fascist. The fact they are running aroudn the universe using might makes right on the rest of the universe + said libertarian "utopia" is built on the back of deprivation of rights through military force. Not to mention it would only survive without hitting its own in the arms of a young naïve author. read some of his later books. he tears starship troopers to shreds ideologically. He learned better. Why didnt you? @@chrisbingley
@@fatespiker You're literally making stuff up. 1) Libertarianism is thr polar opposite of fascism. 2) They're retaliating the the Arachnids nuking Buenos Aires. 3) Heinlein stated that Starship Troopers, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Stranger in a Strange Land made up the core of his message. "If you liked one, but not the others, then there's no hope for you."
If you're not chucking strategems like candy at a parade, I don't know what game you're playing but you should clearly report to the Democracy Officer.
Helldivers gives whole new meaning to "Danger Close" You either die as bug food or call down the artillery strike on your position. If you're forward of your position, the artillery will fall short.
@@fernandomarques5166yup, I've been trying to explain to so many fanboys of other settings that "no Helldivers aren't elite infantry deployed as special forces, their Elite JTACs means they're a lot more dangerous."
I like the Shock and Awe aspect of especially Astartes drop pods. They're not meant to be stealthy, they're meant to bring really big angry men in power suits as close to hostile forces as possible. That's the main draw of pods, imo. Thr sheer WOW factor of WHOOSH, PSSSSSWOOOM. SLAM.
Was thinking along the same lines. Warhammer 40k Astartes are the embodiment of Shock Troops. They do this deliberately to draw the enemy fire and break their lines from within... 😂
@@shagrat47 THE reason Astartes have their colour schemes is to draw the eye. They are the proud fist of the Emperor. Come forth and receive judgement.
40k Drop Pods are a little more thought-out than presented here. For one thing, they're not so much dropped as fired at a planet, using reinforced ceramite armour which due to 40k super-science that no-one really understands is practically immune to heat. They don't decelerate until just before impact, and then they do so with enough force to pulp anyone inside to jam- except the Astartes super-soldiers inside who are hooked up to all manner of inertia-compensating hardware which again, no-one really understands anymore. (This is why only Astartes can use the things without dying.) Additionally, a significant portion of pods aren't full of troops, but instead are 'Deathwind' pods which deploy an area-saturation munition on landing and look, importantly, exactly the same as the transports, making any attempt to ambush a pod a very risky proposition. A common Astartes tactic is to drop the things directly into, and often through, buildings, allowing for a shock-and-awe attack a traditional paratrooper can't hope to match. On top of that, most attacks are combined arms with teleporting Terminators, close-air support and equipment drops from Thunderhawks and Stormravens, and a side-order of big and nasty orbital bombardment. It's not subtle, but then that's not the Marines' way.
And also the fact that the troops coming out of the pods aren't normal humans but transhumance super soldiers in tank quality power armor wielding heavy weapons as if they were rifles. Also the Drop pods do have targeting counter measures which include things like chaff to break up their signatures and make lock ons difficult.
And to make it even worse, lets remember, you can fit a Deadnaught combat walker inside a Drop Pod. It's not just super soldiers, but super soldiers with armoured, tank level support.
7:23 Titanfall only directly drops titans from low altitude (like the mission Trial by Fire where you and BT are dropped directly from a hovering MacAllen-class carrier, probably the Braxton). High altitude or orbital drops ARE carried out using drop pods. You can see this whenever you call in a titan in multiplayer, the three segments of the drop pod blast off when the titan is a hundred meters or so off the ground, making an audible sound.
One of the things that I liked about starship troopers is it showed how each pod had a myriad of countermeasures and radar spoofing to both help hide the actual deployed numbers of troops and to throw off enemy anti-air. I think the reason that it's so commonplace is. It is just possibly effective enough to be actually used.
One thing I've noticed about drop pods, is that they are difficult to hit and track, and honestly, it does make a great deal of sense. After all, the main reason why so many countries are developing hypersonic cruise missiles is because to quote the light mech pilot's motto: speed is life. vehicles moving at Mach 10 are difficult to track, and even harder to shoot down. Now imagine you have a drop pod that can get a lone trooper, or a fireteam from orbit to ground. Perhaps the mothership enters an orbital period that results in reentry to give the pod that initial insertion without wasting onboard fuel stores. The pod itself has a thick layer of ablative paneling to get you through reentry. During that time the pod is relatively safe from being destroyed by air defenses, the enemy may know you're coming, but they can't do much about it since you're simply moving too fast to track, target, and intercept. As the pod enters the lower atmosphere, it begins to decelerate. at that point, your speed drops from hypersonic to high supersonic speeds, and you become more vulnerable. To counter this, the pod jettisons it's outer layer, and now acts like chaff, perhaps the internal layer of the pod is made of a stealth material to further confuse air defenses. Now the enemy is trying to track a small debris field, and they can't tell whether the pod broke up, or is still a threat. Destruction of the pod is possible, but difficult. You make it to the final kilometer of the drop, and are preparing to perform final braking before you hit the ground. This is where the pod is at it's most vulnerable, but by now, the enemy maybe has only a few seconds to engage and shoot down the pod. At this point, the drop pod functions like a HALO jump. Destruction of the pod is very possible, but the enemy's response time is at it's minimum, especially since the pod is under the radar at this point or it will be very soon.
This applies to hypersonics right now, but may not apply 20 years from now, and certainly won't apply 100 years from now. As the video states, it takes quite a while to fall from orbit, or even very high up. And the sky doesn't have ground clutter or a pesky horizon to mask your approach. Furthermore, human beings don't do great at hypersonic speeds, or rather don't do great with the accelerations and thus forces induced by doing anything more complicated than moving in a straight line. At the distances involved, the hypersonic projectile is no different from any other target moving in a predictable direction. As the pod decelerates, this problem gets even more pronounced, and the tug of war between sensors and stealth takes over. Can the sensors filter out chaff? Can you detect emissions from the pod? All depends on the sensor capabilities of the defender, and as the pod gets closer those sensors become better at their job. If we want to be 'realistic' then we need to consider both sides of the equation rather than measuring orbital drops vs. current era technology. And physics. We're already working on countermeasures to hypersonics. We already HAVE countermeasures to small fast moving supersonic and subsonic projectiles.
Hypersonic cruise missiles are a bad comparison, because the main reason they're dangerous is that they can stay at relatively low altitude and hide from your sensors beyond the horizon for most of their flight path. What you really want to look at are ballistic missile reentry vehicles, which can achieve speeds greater than most hypersonic missiles on descent, but will normally appear on their target's radar screens well before reaching apogee, say five minutes into a thirty minute flight, because a drop pod is basically one of those, just larger, even less able to use the horizon for concealment, and, traditionally, trading the ascent portion of the flight for a much longer fall form the higher orbits. While it is true that ballistic reentry vehicles have historically been considered somewhere between impossible and difficult to intercept during their terminal phase (reentry and descent), weapons capable of shooting them down have been filtering in since 1990, when Patriot PAC-2 was first deployed, and missiles that can make the intercept in space started becoming operational in the mid 2000s, but were technically feasible since the 1970s and delayed only by international treaty. Sure the latter will need to be mounted on larger boosters or piggyback off fixed launch infrastructure to reach outside of low orbit, but that seems a small sacrifice to make in the face of targets with a window of hours or even days instead of minutes between launch and atmospheric interface. It's safe to say ballistic missile defenses will be seeing much improvement over the next few decades, let alone the next few centuries or millennia and, so long as the drop pods are reliant on a physical heat shield, the interceptors won't even need to grow in size to be effective against them, just punch a small hole and wait for it to reenact Columbia on reentry. And that is to say nothing of the potential for surface to orbit lasers, which, even aren't powerful enough to burn through a heat shield, should be more than capable of stripping away the mass of inflatable decoys that will accompany the pods until they hit the atmosphere (much like those mixed in with real life MIRVs), or various forms of electromagnetic accelerator guns, which will probably be firing guided projectiles the equivalent of missile lofted kill vehicles, that often share a setting with fictional drop pods. Or that is is entirely feasible with current rocket technology to build a shoulder launched anti satellite weapon which could take chunks out of heat shields just as well as those weapons mounted on larger rockets in the last couple hundred kilometers of approach. Its a lot harder to suppress ground defenses from orbit when an effective surface to orbit battery can be as small as a single Toyota Hilux or a few dudes camping in the woods. So, short version, attrition rate of drop pods is going to be absolutely astronomical in anything even approaching a contested drop, so much so that putting personnel in them is all but fully contraindicated, because even if there's ten decoys for every pod and nine out of every ten pods carries only automated weapons or supplies, you're still going to struggle to land a coherent, combat effective force. Even if you've bombarded the planet halfway back to the stone age or are aiming the drop at a land mass you've already largely secure you're still likely to lose a few to light weapons. And before anyone suggests that you can reduce the threat to the drop pods by running a ship down to disgorge them in LEO or high atmosphere, that's just transferring the threat to the ship which, thanks to being a larger target, is just as, if not more vulnerable to the ground launched, suborbital kinetic missiles which will dominate those altitudes. Their own orbital velocity is their weakness, as an object that has been shot straight up or is falling straight down will still hit them at four or five times the speed of the fastest modern tank shells.
It still doesn't make much sense to drop soft human troops, that's why in (real) Starship Troopers they were tank-like mechas armed with tactical nukes.
@@StacheMan26Surface to orbit lasers are practically impossible, at least assuming there's an atmosphere. Air simply diffracts and attenuates lasers far too much over longer distances; that's why the US Air Force has dropped its programme for developing airborne anti-ballistic missile lasers (those big 747s with huge lense gimbals on the nose). It just doesn't work. Also, saying that it's possible with current technology to create shoulder-launched ASAT missiles is ludicrous, sorry. I've seen just how big rockets get before they can reach even the very lowest of space; the tyranny of the rocket equation is very real. You have some good points, but you're also very wrong about some things.
If you have the tech to make a drop pod that a human can survive the deceleration phase at the end of then you should also have the tech to bombard the target area as well. Might be a bit harder to pick off the drop pods if your defense emplacements are getting fired on as well. This leaves the defenders with a choice, try and intercept the pods or try and intercept the incoming munitions.
One part about drop pods that does make sense is that they are smaller and more maneuverable targets than the big ships that dropped them, so instead of shooting at your expensive ships the enemy is wasting lots of ammo to kill just a few soldiers. And the first pods you dropped were decoys and weapons platforms that shoot back at anything trying to take them out, so by the time you actually send your soldiers down there are fewer defenses shooting at them and your fleet knows where most of them are. Then the soldiers will be trying to locate any hidden defenses kept in reserve and either destroy them or relay targeting data to the ships that can either shoot at them or guide a decoy pod to fall on them without braking. This should take out enough defenses that you can land the big ships unless the enemy had buries some backup backup defensive weapons really deep just to wait until you try that.
I find it interesting how common this concept is in sci-fi. Really, this isn't too far out of the realm of realistic feasibility - even by today's standards. All you would need is a specially modified space plane, some troops, and some reentry pods, and you could have boots on the ground anywhere in the world in less than an hour. (Edit) Okay, okay, okay, guys. By "realm of feasibility," I meant in comparison to star ships and warp drive and other things you see in sci-fi. Is it practical? No. But it is something I could see used in a fictional story that takes place present day or in the near future as an insane and desperate strategy in the 11th hour. The general is like, "You're insane," and the hero is like, "yes, but what other choice do we have, sir."
The problem is that you'll get the exact situation that WW2 paras and the VDV faced in late WW2 and the initial phases of Ukraine, respectively: if anything more than a stiff breeze of resistance shows up, they'll get *_MAULLED_* before the main force arrives. That's before adding the fact that fighting from the air is a *_death sentence_* if the enemy has *_SEMI-COMPETENT_* IADS in place (as Serbia and, increasingly, Ukraine prove... hell the SU-25 hasn't been anywhere near the frontlines for the better part of a year and every helicopter has been reduced to being flying Grads). That's why the US basically reworked all its para units into either air-mobile or air-assault units, with only one unit still being paras because they want to keep the institutional knowledge alive.
@TheTrueAdept Oh yeah, it's totally not practical for open warfare. I was thinking more along the lines of black ops or getting rapid reinforcements to a covert team.
@@mitwhitgaming7722 A drop pod is not exactly subtle. Not sure why you would want to use them for black ops. And using them as reinforcements for a covert team just means the guys in drop pods need reinforcements themselves as they draw every enemy to their location.
@@mitwhitgaming7722 All countries, especially US have already solved that. It's called HALO jumps and it's used in very limited way as it's impractical in all but a very few instances
Drop pods can be very situational or useful, depending on the type of story that you have: - They are very good for putting weapons, ammunition, and supplies on the ground. - There can be the issue of cost in creating a drop pod that's capable of holding one soldier versus a landing transport that holds many. - Drop pods can get wasted by anti-air defenses. - Maybe it's possible to create something stealth-like in deploying a few soldiers on the ground without alerting defenses.
Stealth is actually a very good reason to use drop pods. Turns out, humans are visible on radar, and not particularly stealthy either. Significantly more stealthy than most 3rd gen fighters, but definitely not more stealthy than anything 4th gen. Plus, you can put wings on them and glide them. Parachutes are stealthy, but they don't exactly enclose the human.
" Drop pods can get wasted by anti-air defenses. " Do you know what gets wasted MORE by AA? Dropships, landingcraft (the big ones) and paratroopers that spend most of their time hanging in perfect AA range. ^^ Pods are designed to come in MUCH faster than any of these, spend as little time as possible in the slowing down phase, while giving the occupants at least a little bit of protection and let the occupants survive the much harder landing. My favorid variation are the warhammer 40k ones because they drop entire squads, are fairly heavily armored (giving the astartes they drop some cover uppon disebarking) and deploy automated turrets from the top to give firesupport. (And they are big enough to deploy light-ish vehicles such as walkers, bikes and landspeeders.)
A few things: Drop pods have different speeds depending on atmosphere density. Dropping into Venus versus Mars? Armored Trooper Votoms, Red Shoulder air drops. Decoy. WW2 have dummies dropped. The Expanse, Season 6 against the rail guns... Suppression: Artillery hitting before landing. Drop pods are just fancy parachute deployments.
One of the head-canon items in one of my fantasy settings are called "zip packs" - They're a belt and harness system meant for jumping off of buildings high up or planes or whatever. But instead of parachutes, they use an energy cell to fire off plasma jet thrusters to slow the fall. (though there's an alternate that just pushes back against gravity, which is silent). It really only decelerates long enough and in enough force to make for a "safe" landing. It isn't necessarily soft or fun. .. Pretty much like how a parachute landing is from a static line or ejecting from an aircraft. With training though, you can stick the landing pretty easily. Or an advanced program can create a more controlled landing. While it's not a drop pod, it's kind of the same kind of concept.
Regarding the ability to shoot down drop pods on atmosphere entry, one of the details i loved about the SST novel was during the initial drop against the skinnies, the Mobile Infantry uses a mix of jammers, chaff, bombs, and decoy pods to give the power armored units time to hit the deck and begin operations.
Yeah, the raid on the Skinnies was more scare tactics than actual combat. They only sent in the Roughnecks. A re battle would have seen more troopers deployed, so they had to make it harder for the skinnies to hit the 40 men that were deployed.
From what I remember, Muv-luv did something similar to make sure the drop troops reached the ground. And the fact they they even reached the ground in the first place given the insane AA capabilities of their foes, it is quite telling on just how much of this they used.
In helldivers the ships you see blowing up are actually other squads being wiped. The ships that blow up are always the ones you can see providing support to the beacons below you for the other squads on the planet
No they arent other players ships, when I played on a planet that was already liberated (its a glitch, just have an unfinished mission on an already liberated planet) there were plenty of super destroyers near the mission site
Every single disadvantage you mentioned is directly and laboriously addressed in Heinlein’s Starship Troopers (1959), which, I might add, invented the concepts of orbital insertion and mech combat.
Yeah the disadvantages are tackled with the setting own fiction which involve the autor creating the worldbuilding to fit the pods into the world's plausibility.
I actually seriously doubt he 'invented' either of thouse idea. Starship Troopers POPULARIZED the concepts, but I'm sure a search of the literature would find earlier references because these are not difficult concepts to come up with for a Science Fiction writer.
@@kennethferland5579 You realize Starship Troopers was published in 1959, right? There's not a whole lot of science fiction that's older than it. I would downgrade your "seriously doubt" to a "kinda doubt" just to be on the safe side.
@@AlindBack 100%. I'd be curious if anyone can find a scifi novel that pre-dates the original Starship Troopers book and makes use of drop pods. Not saying a lesser known example *can't* exist, but Heinlein definitely would have been the source of inspiration for most works featuring drop pods to come after his book.
Despite the satirical and "Rule of Cool" nature of Helldivers, I think it actually has a pretty believable take on how interstellar war could be conducted. Instead of massive armies clashing in conventional battles, you have small and mobile ground units specifically equipped to control objectives and act as spotters for aerospace assets. The game's insane attention to detail further sells the concept, making it surprisingly immersive. Whether or not hypothetical future nations would use something like drop pods over a more conventional means of transport remains to be seen, but it's hard to deny the "extreme sci-fi paratrooper" allure of drop pods.
I disagree with your vision of interstellar battles, though there are probably plenty of universes where you might be right, I don't think ours is one. If we take a hard sci fi / irl approach to this, *interstellar* war implies absolutely prodigious amounts of ressources involved given you hate someone enough to be at war for centuries, millennia or millions of years. If you are engaging in interstellar war then it happening with at least partial K2 civilisations, which implies populations starting in the low quadrillions at least. I am assuming that this is a war of survival for the leaders on both sides and that they are in a war economy or even total mobilisation. (Think WW1 levels of commitment) I am also assuming most of the star system is in on the war because you won't have asteroid SOL-58382 in sol *actually* fighting asteroid AC-462728 in Alpha Centaurus, both going to total war because one called the other ugly. Anyway, we have established that there are quadrillions (more likely septillions) of people committed on both sides to at least see the government of the opposing side gone, and they dont want to simply kill everyone in the other star system. They aren't gonna send 1 000 ships and 1 million soldiers. They aren't sending 1 million ships and 1 billion soldiers. They are sending 1 billion (more like 1 trillion) ships and 1 trillion to one quadrillion soldiers, and that's being conservative. Ofc my numbers aren't perfect, you are probably sending in the quintillion of soldiers but anyway. I hope you get why I don't think your vision of **interstellar** warfare would exist, at least IRL. Now what you say could probably be applied if we are talking in hard sci fi wars between earth countries or asteroid A and B each with a few million people
@@KaizerKlash111But moving these incredible high mumber of ships and soldiers would be crazy expensive. So I see why the single ship and soldier would become bigger, better equipped and more expensive. The cost of transport would make having only expensive elite troops much more economically viable.
You may want to read the novel Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein. In the novel, most of your issues are dealt with. For example, as the pods the troopers are in fall, they shed skin as chafe to confuse enemy radar, plus some of the pods are dummies to add to the confusion. The troopers in the pods have all the situational awareness they need through external sensors tied into the suit HUD's. These pods don't land with the troopers inside. At the trooper's command, the pod shell gets blown away adding to the chafe chaos and chutes are deployed which also interrupt the enemy tracking. Then the chutes are jettisoned at the trooper's discretion, whereupon they rely on built in jump jets incorporated into the combat armour to land and move around.
The Starship Troopers novel is one of the earliest depictions and still one of the best. The mobile infantry deploy in individual pods for reentry and after slowing appropriately the pods break apart acting as chaff to help protect the soldier from enemy AA fire. Actual touch down is executed by the use of chutes and the armor jump jets.
my favorite version of drop pods are from the book of Starship Troopers. how it was depicted as being an hot drop type. meaning it was meant to fired into combat. the way the metal shell of the pod scattered into counter measures like chaff and flares (being as the metal being super hot) it had deacceleration booster plus a parachute.
Its not a drop pod from space. But one of my favourite depictions of a rapid deployment drop system was in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, where they fire this gel material that they land in that rapidly evaporates allowing them a fast and near silent stealthy landing.
7:45 As Heinlein said in the book Starship Troopers, you don't use an axe handle to spank a baby. This is why you may use infantry instead of "real weapons";).
remember: When you did the Drop Pod Assault on Intallation 05 in Halo 2, Cortana did shout at Cheif asking him if he could be Any Louder. then Master Cheif pulls a SPNKR from the Drop Pod and Cortana stands corrected.
I think the re-purposed cargo containers in the Battle of the Slow Zone in The Expanse also counts as drop pod infantry. I like it as an example because it takes into account all the work needed to occupy the defenses enough to get a minority of the pods through.
Another form of drop pod I like that sadly wasn't mentioned here are the pod from Call of Duty Advanced Warfare. While they're by no means orbital, instead being dropped from dropships at maybe a few thousand feet, they still fit the function and aesthetic of an orbital drop pod. These drop pods carry a squad of infantry, and contain external cameras and maneuvering thrusters as well as a viewing screen for the squad leader to steer the pod toward its target. I think the main reason they exist over paratroopers(in this specific low-altitude context) is that the troops reach the ground faster than paratroopers and are somewhat protected by the armored pod. It also allows a squad to stay together when dropping instead of potentially being spread out in a field, and can be dropped into dense urban environments.
"...multiple simultaneous and devastating deep strikes using Drop Pods. The Codex Astartes calls this manoeuver 'Steel Rain'..." Cpt. Boreale of the Blood Ravens
You mentioned a lot of disadvantages that are already adressed by various settings you brought up. Also, a pod is actually a harder target than a parachute.
When Lord Edward Grey said the British army should be a projectile to be fired by the Royal Navy, I don't think this is what he had in mind, but I'm sure he would have approved.
The opening scene of Gundam Seed has one of the best drop pod scenes imo. The pods serve two roles. First: Survive the heat of reentry into earth's atmopshere, second (hopefully) absorb AA bombardment of the defending forces until it gets deep enough to deliver its load to the battlefield without it getting shredded in said AA bombardment.
Zaft really had a good orbit-to-earth deployment and transport system. Both using fast snd disposable drop pod for battlefield drops, and a reuseable glider capsule that are unfortunately rarely seen, used to drop supplies and troops to friendly. In Destiny, as much ad ppl want to harp on that show, Zaft mass dropped those reuseable capsules to deliver supply to Earth as disaster relief.
The mid-90s TV show Exo-Squad splits the difference, launching drop-ships and then disgorging pods of jump troops once the drop ship is close enough. Pods are sometimes launched and abandoned, and other times are lowered on cables and then retrieved, depending on how hot the landing zone is, the terrain, and other factors. I actually think Exo-Squad thought it through better than any other show.
Droppods are also integral to Planetside 2. For quite a long time, there was no tutorial, your first experience after making a character was hot-dropping straight into the biggest fight on the continent. Nowadays, there's other variants and uses too. As a squad-leader, using outfit resources you can call in a Steel Rain, forcibly redeploying anyone not in a vehicle and dropping them simultaneously. There's also the ANVIL variants, acting as vehicle drops.
In the science-fantasy setting I have created myself, there is a type of troops called the "Space Drop Regiments". (Rough translation from Polish "pułk przestrzennodesantowy".) Divisional size units of this were a thing during the 2nd and 3rd Great Confrontations (the most severe wars of that world), but only temporarily for the duration of conflicts. Their structure and mission profile is as follows: The Space Drop Regiments are light combarm units, equipped with Stryker-esque wheeled vehicles of a unified design and oversize logistical assets (if there even is such thing in the practice of warfare). Such regiment includes following units: -HQ company x1 (CP, comms, medical aid station, plus everything accomodation-related) -Light mech infantry batallion x1: -HQ x1 (CP plus everything logistics-related) -Light mech infantry company x3 -SPAA detachment x1 (platoon-size) -Wheeled tank company x1 (vehicles a'la Stryker MGS or Italian Centauro) -SP artillery battery x1 (heavy mortas/light howitzers on a Stryker-like vehicle) -Recon company x1 -ATGM detachment x2 (platoon-size) -SPAA detachment x2 (platoon-size) -Fuelling unit x1 (platoon-size) -Supply company x1 -Maintenance detachment x1 (somewhere in-between platoon and company size) Engineering/clearance detachment x1 (platoon-size). Said units are ladden into descent apparatusses the size of a 12-storey apartment building, to be dropped in from orbit (or from a hyperbolic fly-by trajectory). Each such apparatus typically features a reentry shield, sets of maneuvering and braking engines complete with propellant, articulated retractable airbrakes for use in lower atmosphere and several tons of various decoys to avoid enemy flak and ground-to-space weaponry. In case of invading a world with no atmosphere, the heatshield and the airbrakes are removed and replaced with additional propellant and/or engines for propulsive deceleration. The vehicles (16 per apparatus, with landing troops inside) are attached radially to a central truss and covered up with hull plating, attached via explosive bolts. The regiment is designed to fit into nine descent apparatusses, carried externally on three amphibious-warfare ships (naval terminology used as placeholder until I come up with something more appropriate). A fourth ship with further three apparatusses usually follows, carrying the bulk of regiment's supplies for immediate delivery. The infantry batallion (ship #1) usually lands first, closely followed by the contents of ship #2 (HQ company, tanks, recon, SPAA and ATGM), and the rear components (incl. artillery) arrives only after the perimeter is more or less secured. The intended landing zone is usually carpet-bombed from orbit (or sometimes hyperbolic-dive-bombed from a high-velocity flyby) before the drop itself. As the descent apparatusses are released onto their, well... descent, the amphibious-warfare ships provide EW support, primarily by the means of barrage-jamming any enemy radars within the general area (i.e. large part of a continent) with immense power. After reentry (if relevant) and deceleration to a velocity low enough, the descent apparatusses are spun up, their hull plating is blown off, and the payload is released (thrown out by centrifugal force to avoid collisions). Each of the carried terrestial vehicles is kitted out with a package of parachutes and deceleration rockets, appropriate for the target world's atmosphere and gravity, for a VDV-style semi-propulsive touchdown (or propulsive, if there is no atmosphere). Meanwhile, the apparatus itself crash-lands. It is usually ladden with the most crash-resistant part of the regiment's supplies. When the vehicles, together with their occupants, touch the ground, the landed units engage in battle (if enemy is present at or near LZ), set up a perimeter and attempt to break through to the adjacent regiments (if present) in order to establish a continuous front line. When this is achieved, a construction regiment is dropped in alongside additional equipment and supplies,, tasked with establishing proper rear infrastructure, most importantly a field refineries for producing synthetic fuel (and HTP in case of low-oxygen environments), as well as rocket propellant, and an airstrip for spaceplanes, to establish a proper logistical line between the surface and the orbit. When that is done, regular units (non-Space Drop) may be landed via spaceplane, and proper strategic offensive operations on the ground may begin. What do you think? P.S. Sorry if my English is crappy.
Honestly, if you have a big enough deceleration system you can droppod just about anything. From tanks to prefab bases. And at that point it becomes a bit of a catch 22 especially if we go to the absolutely upper end of the spectrum and drop a Hive city sised complex with automated defences. Assuming you have the capabilities you're dead if you destroy it and likelly dead if you don't.
One example of dropship I wanna mention, which really emphasizes the word ship, are the Landing Castles from Aldnoah; Zero. They're massive spire-like ships capable of deploying thousands of infantry with their affiliated aircraft & mechs. It also acts like an FOB & can fire a large number of guided missiles for either saturation attacks or more precise actions such as targeting large bunkers & underwater network cables.
Drop pods are really just para drops but from outer space. So there are similar advantages and disadvantages. The same could be said about drop ships vs helicopter delivery. If they could replace the paratrooper's parachute with a box that allowed them to slam into the ground at terminal velocity without injury and/or death, modern generals would absolutely do so. The faster it falls, the less vulnerable to anti-air fire, so that slamming into the ground thing would still be an important advantage even if it is not perfect.
In some novel with drop pods or troops, it was described that a lot of dummies are deployed to distract AA fire. I think it was Starship Troopers, but I'm not sure. Been a long time since I read that.
Skycranes are pretty cool imo. I really like the idea of an expendable package containing a heat shield, and retrorocket crane being used to rapidly land heavy objects safely. Ever since curiosity did it, i haven’t been dissuaded
Don't forget that the drop pods in helldivers are shaped like bullets, your helldivers aren't being used as human soldiers, but as AMMUNITION FIRED AT THE ENEMY.
David Weber's drop pods from his Fury book does a pretty good showing of the analog between paratroopers and drop troops, with quite a bit of focus on the issues with both. The first has the troops drop straight into an ambush waiting for them with heavy AA. The second is going to relieve the survivors of the first and have to drop while hoping the survivors take out of the active AA site before it can target the pods. The third has the attacking force use dozens of empty (but otherwise real) pods as decoys for each "real" pod and has the decoys drop into places where it looks like the decoys are real and vise versa.
Also having getting over the drop time by basically firing the pods rail gun style into the ground at well above free fall speed, then slowing down with magic antigravity physics.
Drop pods are a great way to either quickly deploy reinforcements onto a battlefield or place a specialized small unit in a precise location to complete a specific mission. Other than that, they are mostly useless. They are a very niche piece of military equipment but that doesn’t make them impractical for those specific scenarios.
The real Starship Troopers, as in the book, had a good explanation of how they pulled off orbital drops. The ships would blast anything they saw on the ground while jamming everything, the pods would be dropped with shitload of decoys and chaff, and the pods themselves would break apart into more decoys on the way down. The troopers would slow down with a series of parachutes, and make touchdown with the thrusters in their power armor. I think that would work fairly well against most individually targeted anti-air weapons, but if the guys on the ground decide to go with high altitude nukes in the middle of that blob on their sensors, I'd hate to be in one of those pods.
@@noop9k The shockwave in atmosphere will send everything remotely near it ass over teakettle even if it doesn't destroy them outright. Plus, a nuke high up poses little danger to those on the ground aside from EMP, and there's undoubtedly plenty of those going around anyway. Military hardware should withstand that anyway.
@@tickticktickBOOOOM if a nuke can cause noticeable damage to heat shielded mecha at, say, 10 km, then it will cause serious damage to civilians at, say, 50. At what height you want to blow it up?
I imagine the reason the Super Destroyer eventually have to go back to high orbit is to avoid giving a QRF which could contain anti ship weapons from being brought into range of the Destroyers.
Super Destroyers actually follow the Helldivers down into the lower atmosphere! When the time for a mission runs out, the announcer voice tells us "We have to go, the Super Destroyer cant stay this low for any longer!"
Huh I'm surprised you. Didn't mention cap troopers from starship troopers who I heard were original inspiration for ODST. The experience of insertion was really detailed in the book. Ifrc they had more of a power armor like the old 1988 OVA, it had certain and AAA counter measures, and even used the initial capsule as a chaff. When they landed they were highly maneuverable leapfroging like the hulk, and reasonably armed.
So for those of you who are too good to have heard this line, the destroyers are indeed NOT in orbit.On a long mission, At the 5 minute warning, you get the message from your captain "window is closing helldiver, we cant stay this low for much longer." If youre not ready to go, the extraction ship is automatically called and WILL leave without you, suggesting the urgency of this statement. I believe this suggests that the destroyers are staying in atmo, below orbit, and are burning massive resources to do so. The on bridge liason has a throwaway line that says "you know, each helldiver mission is approx the same cost as a liberty class cruiser." Keeping such a massive spacefaring ship in atmo conditions would go a LONG way to explaining this cost, because arty sure as hell aint that expensive.
In some decently written fiction, drop pods are also launched alongside anti-tracking items, like flares, chaff, mock pods that deliberately draw missile/cannon fire by presenting a much louder signature to lock onto, and also carrying ECM of some kind to shield their approach from sensors. It's a lot harder to knock down 50 drop pods when 150 things are coming down from orbit, a quarter of them actually able to be locked onto by computer systems, and the rest have to be manually targetted. It gives the occupants, whether they be individual soldiers, teams, squads, a mobile suit, or a mobile suit group a better chance of getting to ground before someone picks them off with a weapon. Not that it works 100% of the time. But it does increase the odds. That said, most drop pod users in those universes already know that there's a good chance they might never make ground, each jump. or that something could go wrong and they could 'dig their own grave', if you catch the metaphor. But it's what they signed on for when they agreed to do a drop assault. They knew the risks.
*“And where is the Prince who can afford so to cover his Country with Troops for its Defense, as that Ten Thousand Men descending from the Clouds, might not in many Places do an infinite deal of Mischief, before a Force could be brought together to repel them?”* -Ben Franklin
One thing we don't see often (to my knowledge) is combining drop pods strategy with IRL paratroopers jumps like HALO/HAHO. The pods launch from orbit (or a lower altitude as you point out) with the aid of thrusters to avoid the slow reentry issue. And at the given altitude (depending if it's a HALO or HAHO) troopers jump out to their mission while the pods can litteraly become a guided kinetic warheads. In a way you mix a surprise bombardment with MFF operations. Kind of unnecessary dangerous but for a sci fi setting it seems legit
Undying Mercenaries has an interesting drop pod system. Troopers line up and drop down a hole in the deck, as they're falling two halves of a pod are slammed together around them before its loaded into a cannon. If that sounds like a great way to loose a limb it is so keep 'em tucked in. There are always losses to defensive fire or splatting but that's what the revival machines on the lifters that come down once a beachhead is secured are for.
If you have ever played any flavor of the Bettletech pen and paper tabletop RPG. They use dropships that come in from Jumpships from the systems' jump points.They bring in a mech platoon or support troops and supplies. The added benefit of droships is that they are armed and armoured to enemy air assets and any mechs in the drop zone.
Yeah.... but BT also has droppods as well. Mechs, BA, even tanks and infantry can be dropped from orbiting dropships. Also from dropships in atmosphere without the pods. This is usually done to secure an LZ for the dropships or to seize objectives that you cannot land a dropship at. (Not enough flat ground).
Example of the latter would be during Battle of Tikonov during 4SW the entire 7th Crucis Lancers mech regiment (all 108+ mechs) was dropped into the city of Tikograd from something like fifty thousand feet.
For my money, I feel like drop pod troopers would be closer akin to air borne glider troops. They could still be pretty damn light and fast, but able to insert with a lot more heavy weapons and supplies, and like you said possibly even light vehicles. Paratroopers in the traditional sense are usually extremely limited on that sort of thing and if they can so it at all, tend to need to be dropped in with supply drops in parallel with the troops themselves which is extremely fraught with risk.
The whole concept of drop pods and drop ships in sci-fi is to address the real need of boots on the ground to take control instead of sterilize from orbit. You have to have some means of getting them there, and orbital / suborbital insertion based on real life methods with the same "flaws" are the easiest to depict.
If you had some sort of quickly disippating gel that was pumped into your body cavity, neck/head support and something to redirect the impact on your limbs. You could get that cool movie drop pod impact. I could see body modifications being the tell tale sign of drop troopers.
one advantage i can see of drop pods over parachutes is speed. sure the drop pod isn't going to be stealthy, but it WILL be fast. if your goal is "deliver trooper / big power ASAP" a drop pod might be the better option as parachutes always need to do that "slow down a float around" thing, which just gives them more time to be shot at if spotted, meanwhile drop pods would be much harder to hit if shot at, due to their sheer speed in falling. There also might be an accuracy factor. Drop pods go in one direction: down. Whereas parachutes tend to go sideways and float around a bit. if you need something to be "here and exactly here" with little variation, a low-altitude drop pod might do it better then a parachute.
Nice that the Roughnecks cartoon got a showing. I rewatched it a couple years back for the first time since I was young and was a little impressed by the more realistic method of flying in a dropship into the atmosphere that then deploys the pods. I also distinctly remember a scene where they deploy a couple of fighters via loading them into a bigger carrier and then releasing them once it's achieved re-entry.
My fav version is from quake 2 and 4. They had some travel time and were more like little starships than parachutes with extra steps. They could fly for a bit before landing, meaning they could come down and skim the horizon, coming in in below possible defenses against orbital targets. They were still vulnerable to flak fire and AAguns, but so were other troop delivery vehicles.
My first exposure to this trope was in the GDI campaign of Tiberian Sun and I’ve really been in love with the idea ever since. Really takes the appeal of the line commando inserted dramatically behind enemy lines and jacks it up on steroids.
I liked the drop pods in the last couple of missions of Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast. They were big and chunky, and capable of operating as forward command posts once landed.
I like this channel... most of the time. It is amazing how many things are either glossed over or completely omitted. I created a sci-fy story that went over as much of the drop as possible, and there is a hell of a lot more than just shooting a pod out of the ship. In fact, even with all the details, a few of my fans points a few small points I missed. Orbital drops... it's complicated.
Maybe dropods could be slightly different: Use a big pod that is dropped but then ejects the ocupants at a certain altitude, the pod itself would be disposable and could hold vehicles that would drop with it. This could be done when needing to drop units into a locations without endangering a spacecraft that would need to land and then extract itself back to orbit. Kinda like a glider in WW2
I always play helldivers like Space JTAC simulator. Trying to keep my distance, work with my teammates, and use my stratagems to complete objectives from afar. Especially on the robots, keeping scouts and drop ships from knowing your exact position is how you succeed at higher difficulties. Distance and air support are your best friend.
Drop pods in StarCraft II were interesting one as well. Seen in Heart of the Swarm campaign, these drop pods can be launched from the battlecruisers in the lower atmosphere and AA defense destroys some before they break into the science facility. In the actual mission, drop pods break the ceiling and land right on the floor, while some of them fail to stop and goes below the floor.
Good point, Helldivers aren't ODST or Tempestus Scions, they're literal navy liaisons. They're there solely to provide precision and button pressing capabilities to space assets. Other branches exist in Helldivers universe, but we usually find them already dead😅
The Red Rising books did this, but with entire armies. The 'Iron Rains' as they called them were known to have horrendous casualty rates and were explicitly stated to be used by commanders with 'too many troops and not enough time' to take extremely difficult objectives when enemy reinforcements were only days away from the planet/moon.
You didn't mention all of the G's a trooper would have to absorb with the sudden stop at the end. That slam into the ground would equal mush on the inside of the drop pod.
Another factor is this: in orbit, you are already on a vector. Changing your inclination to hit a specific target requires immense delta-v (fuel). Launching suborbital (surface to surface) puts you directly on the appropriate vector and saves a lot of effort (you never need to go to orbit in the first place, even). It would likely be quicker than dropping from orbit, even if you had infinite fuel and delta-v up there.
im imagining a slightly different purpose and design for drop pods. instead of dropping the things straight down into anti-aircraft and anti-orbital weapons they're made to be hypersonic glide vehicles that descend into an atmosphere before covering a significant distance to reach the target while remaining below their radar horizon for as long as possible. you use drop PODS again to reduce the radar signature and the chance to intercept it during the final approach before the pod breaks apart and the occupant parachutes to the ground. they'd be used to rapidly threaten a wide area around the main landing zone, since you need to concentrate your fire on that landing zone to clear AA but still need to disrupt the enemy around that spot to stop counter-attacks pushing you back off the planet.
I think a potential role I could see for drop troopers, and drop pods in general, is as stopgap reinforcements or resupply while defending. Drop them behind friendly lines, and now you either have a couple more bodies on the line or a few more bullets for your troops so your forces have a slightly better chance at holding long enough for more sizeable reinforcements to arrive.
You’re basically all forward observers. In the US army Theyre called 13 Foxes, nickname of Fisters. Sure you can barrage a planet into lifelessness, but having a forward observer makes it easier to find or locate targets accurately with minimal cost in comparison. Seems like Helldivers universe ships are Soviet style, lots of firepower but not a lot of armor to reduce cost
In the Red Rising series the Gold soldiers aren't dropped in pods. But in large suits of power-armor called Starshells which have friction armor that sheds after they hit the atmosphere. They also have Gravboots so they can fly around and not get picked off as easily. It's called an Iron Rain and it's very cool.
One thing I don't think I've ever seen but think of all the time is a Mini-Drop Pod that has either a single person stored in a "transporter" buffer or even an entire Squad and they all just "beam" into a spot even if it's shielded. You can have great infiltration of a single person, or get a small platoon into an area you can't transport people into directly. Or have a single guy literally carry his platoon into an area for a great Trojan attack.
A point of clarification, "rods from god" would take a few minutes at maximum from descent to impact and be far harder to pinpoint and identify compared to a comparable missile launch. They're also much more useful as bunker busters as they hold little to no explosive charge, meaning they're less effective at surface targets.
A video on 'pods' in general would be worth attention. Drop Troopers or Drop Pods are pretty silly, but Escape Pods might be re-entry capable, or simply survival capsules in space. Another 'pod' worth investigation is the Breach Pod, designed to allow assault troops to capture spaceships or platforms 'undamaged'. There are a few Pros for each, and just as many Cons, but they are probably worth some discussion.
The super destroyers could lower their altitude immediately after deploying the first helldive and raise back up to low orbit when their helldiver strike team has finished the objective and extract. Could be why you lose stratagems when you run out of time. Destroyers have to pull out around that time to reduce chances of being smited out of the sky.
I believe this is actually mentioned in the game somewhere, but that is basically the case. The super destroyers can only hold "operational" altitudes for limited times, hence they leave the AO when the timer runs out. Because they can't stay at sub orbital altitudes for too long, before needing to climb back up into orbit.
Not to mention you can only fight gravity for so long before you become a landmark
Probably takes a lot of fuel to hover in place as well
Why did I first read that as Super Star Destroyers instead of Super Destroyers?
Now I can't get the image out of my head of the rebels fighting helldivers.
This is EXACTLY how it works.
They dive in low to give more accuracy and less travel time for their support. The mission clock exists tells you how long it can last in Low Orbit because then the reverse is true. It's a bigger easier target for ground to orbit weapons so it can only stay that low for so long. The longer it stays there, the more fire it's going to eat and eventually something is going to punch through its armor.
So it HAS to pull out or risk destruction.
Janovich covers this in his Vrak's series and it comes up during the Red Scorpions Arc.
The in-universe explanation for why missions have time limits is related to the "not actually in orbit" fact. They say the ships can only stay that low for a short period of time before going back to a higher altitude
Supporting this is the the chatter in post-mission NPC dialogue that say that the main enemy forces weren't able to react before they got out, implying that Helldivers are performing raiding operations that blitz the objective and extract (usually in less than 40 minutes) so they're gone before the enemies are able to send a reaction force big enough to overwhelm them.
This is supported by the types of objective we're doing; seek and destroy or extraction/manipulation of objectives (like launching the ICBM or rescuing trapped personnel) rather than trying to take and hold an objective for more than a few minutes.
This presumably also applies to fast-moving anti-capital ship assets able to harm a super destroyer, like the automaton equivalent of an F/A-18 Hornet.
@@VincentPolehwidhiThere's also the Blitz modifier, which reduces the time even further, down to 15 minutes usually to represent a fully prepared QRF force.
@@VincentPolehwidhi also why the mission gets harder the longer you stay as enemies are alerted to your presence
In the novel of Starship Troopers, the Mobile Infantry are dropped from orbit in essentially egg-shaped blobs of ablative goo, that's been hardened around them. The layers burn away as they fall, and by the time it's completely burned away they're low and slow enough to switch to their parachutes
Weren’t they also “stealth” and used in tandem with dummy pods to minimise losses during the descent? I remember a section of the book talking about the method of minimising casualties but not the details.
@@peteradvisers2684 Ablative layer for re-entry, low signature layer below that which splits in to chaff at a lower altitude to draw fire before they deploy a ribbon chute (or chutes) to slow down before finally stopping with the jump jets on the suit IIRC. Definite on the first three bits, definitely remember the ribbon chute being mentioned as a "jerk" before it shredded but can't remember the rest of the details as clearly. Heinlein was an odd bloke but he definitely came up with a few things, travelators and waldos being prime examples.
@@peteradvisers2684I recall dummy pods that fell with them and were designed to be more detectable.
@@peteradvisers2684the latter part of the book had the troopers armour itself literally invisible at the troopers will, intangible as well. Rico's unit uses the next gen in a ship board battle and drops through decks to appear behind hostiles, which is a part of the next gen drop pod stealth system as well.
@@jaquigreenleesAre you sure you're thinking of Starship Troopers? That doesn't sound familiar at ALL.
When you hit 5 minutes left in a mission on helldivers the radio operator warns that they can't stay that low for much longer, so I think the super destroyers are going sub orbital and then burning anti-normal(?) to stay up while providing support. Hence the time limit on missions from a lore perspective, if I understand right
Anti-radial, or straight up. Normal is sideways.
Yep, if they stay any longer they will be performing a sudden emergency landing.
@@geoffreyporter6373It maybe anti-normal burn cuz he already said it sub orbital.
If you didn't burn in anti-normal (blackward burn) your ship should move forward automatically cuz orbital mechanic is sh*t if you only burn anti-radial. (From KSP guy~)
@mayshiratoshi6390 however, normal and anti normal burns are pointing parallel with the surface of the body you are orbiting and perpendicular to the current direction of travel.
@@geoffreyporter6373 You can stay still in orbital mechanic if you burn in anti-normal and your AP (apoapsis) is so high up in altitude (like to the point it already in stituation of escape velocity) in orbital mechanic.
It seem miracle but yes it real. on other hand burning only in anti-radial you will move on normal trajectory of your space craft no matter what you try. Except you orbital movement is gone and left with only AP then yes. You can hover by burning anti-radial (or anti gravity burn or hover whatever you use in that term()
Halo ODST is explained as you have to get from orbit to ground no matter if you take a drop ship or pod, but a Pod is a smaller target, harder to hit, and each pod hit is only 1 soldier, vs however many are loaded up in your drop ship. Even still, it's a high attrition MOS
Also let's not forget you can also drop empty pods along side filled ones to draw fire away from the ones that are filled.
@@Derangedpostman14 Warhammer has what are called Deathstorm drop pods, pods that have automated weapons like missile launchers and assault cannons. A nice way to clear give a quick reacting force an nasty surprise or establish a frontline while the troops form up.
@@Derangedpostman14And also have extra equipment/weapons drop pods (though I guess those are generally smaller)
@@Derangedpostman14not only can you do that, but you can also fire a lot of junk alongside the pods and even design the pods to break apart in such a way to add even more potential targets to an enemy's radar. This is actually pretty much how they are described in the starship troopers book, and even then the book acknowledges casualties.
and you can also use chaff to make targeting even harder
There's a fun bit in one of the Halo novels where an ODST pod is used to drop in a Mongoose quad bike, which one of the Spartans involved in the operation then proceeds to pick up and use as a melee weapon.
Why did this make me think of Yakuza Spartans?
The cole protocol.
I think Red vs Blue did something similar in their Freelancer Saga heist arc.
@@BlueTeam-John-Fred-Linda-KellyIs it really there?
I mean, it's definitely in one of the books before 2011, because I remember it.
But wasn't the whole action of Cole Protocol, when it comes to spartans, limited to the asteroid field?
@@AVeryDandyLadYep. That time, it was a motorcycle-mongoose.
Heinlein literally covered all of this in the first chapter of Starship Troopers.
"I always get the shakes before a drop."
Ikr
Heinlein was always a good author. Liked him far better in his moon is a harsh mistress days then his fascist starship troopers days.
@@fatespiker "Now here are we with still another system . . . and our system works quite well. Many complain but none rebel; personal freedom for all is greatest in hsitory, laws are few, taxes are low, living standards are as high as productive permits, crime is at it's lowest ebb."
If you read any part of that paragraph and thought the system was fascist, you need you head examining.
- You can't complain about the system of government in a fascist society.
- You have no freedom in a fascist society.
What he described is a libertarian paradise. Heinlein being an arch libertarian himself. If you want empirical evidence that the system isn't fascist. Then take a look at Switzerland, they use the same constitution.
you know people always look at their own ideology and dont see the fascism in it.
There are aspects of such which are libritarian there are many that are fascist. The fact they are running aroudn the universe using might makes right on the rest of the universe + said libertarian "utopia" is built on the back of deprivation of rights through military force. Not to mention it would only survive without hitting its own in the arms of a young naïve author. read some of his later books. he tears starship troopers to shreds ideologically. He learned better. Why didnt you?
@@chrisbingley
@@fatespiker You're literally making stuff up.
1) Libertarianism is thr polar opposite of fascism.
2) They're retaliating the the Arachnids nuking Buenos Aires.
3) Heinlein stated that Starship Troopers, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Stranger in a Strange Land made up the core of his message. "If you liked one, but not the others, then there's no hope for you."
"Glorified target markers for the real weapons" goes hard. 🔥
I'm a stratagem bitch and I approve this message.
If you're not chucking strategems like candy at a parade, I don't know what game you're playing but you should clearly report to the Democracy Officer.
@@warmachine5835 Think fast chuckle nut! Have a orbital laser don't act ungrateful you're keeping it this time.
Helldivers gives whole new meaning to "Danger Close"
You either die as bug food or call down the artillery strike on your position.
If you're forward of your position, the artillery will fall short.
Remember, the most dangerous soldier on the battlefield is one equipped with a radio, a pair of binoculars and knows how to read a map
@@fernandomarques5166yup, I've been trying to explain to so many fanboys of other settings that "no Helldivers aren't elite infantry deployed as special forces, their Elite JTACs means they're a lot more dangerous."
I like the Shock and Awe aspect of especially Astartes drop pods.
They're not meant to be stealthy, they're meant to bring really big angry men in power suits as close to hostile forces as possible.
That's the main draw of pods, imo. Thr sheer WOW factor of WHOOSH, PSSSSSWOOOM. SLAM.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Was thinking along the same lines. Warhammer 40k Astartes are the embodiment of Shock Troops. They do this deliberately to draw the enemy fire and break their lines from within... 😂
But STEALTH DREADNOUGHT
@@Dushessits still stealth if no one is left
@@shagrat47 THE reason Astartes have their colour schemes is to draw the eye. They are the proud fist of the Emperor. Come forth and receive judgement.
40k Drop Pods are a little more thought-out than presented here. For one thing, they're not so much dropped as fired at a planet, using reinforced ceramite armour which due to 40k super-science that no-one really understands is practically immune to heat. They don't decelerate until just before impact, and then they do so with enough force to pulp anyone inside to jam- except the Astartes super-soldiers inside who are hooked up to all manner of inertia-compensating hardware which again, no-one really understands anymore. (This is why only Astartes can use the things without dying.) Additionally, a significant portion of pods aren't full of troops, but instead are 'Deathwind' pods which deploy an area-saturation munition on landing and look, importantly, exactly the same as the transports, making any attempt to ambush a pod a very risky proposition. A common Astartes tactic is to drop the things directly into, and often through, buildings, allowing for a shock-and-awe attack a traditional paratrooper can't hope to match. On top of that, most attacks are combined arms with teleporting Terminators, close-air support and equipment drops from Thunderhawks and Stormravens, and a side-order of big and nasty orbital bombardment. It's not subtle, but then that's not the Marines' way.
And also the fact that the troops coming out of the pods aren't normal humans but transhumance super soldiers in tank quality power armor wielding heavy weapons as if they were rifles. Also the Drop pods do have targeting counter measures which include things like chaff to break up their signatures and make lock ons difficult.
And to make it even worse, lets remember, you can fit a Deadnaught combat walker inside a Drop Pod. It's not just super soldiers, but super soldiers with armoured, tank level support.
And to really, REALLY mess up the enemies day, "oh sorry was that your orbital battery I just parked my Titan Drop Pod on?"
Goated comment
7:23 Titanfall only directly drops titans from low altitude (like the mission Trial by Fire where you and BT are dropped directly from a hovering MacAllen-class carrier, probably the Braxton). High altitude or orbital drops ARE carried out using drop pods. You can see this whenever you call in a titan in multiplayer, the three segments of the drop pod blast off when the titan is a hundred meters or so off the ground, making an audible sound.
Another cute thing Titanfall does is add the possibility of skipping majority of the drop using warpfall.
You can even see it in the clip they used.
One of the things that I liked about starship troopers is it showed how each pod had a myriad of countermeasures and radar spoofing to both help hide the actual deployed numbers of troops and to throw off enemy anti-air.
I think the reason that it's so commonplace is. It is just possibly effective enough to be actually used.
One thing I've noticed about drop pods, is that they are difficult to hit and track, and honestly, it does make a great deal of sense. After all, the main reason why so many countries are developing hypersonic cruise missiles is because to quote the light mech pilot's motto: speed is life. vehicles moving at Mach 10 are difficult to track, and even harder to shoot down.
Now imagine you have a drop pod that can get a lone trooper, or a fireteam from orbit to ground. Perhaps the mothership enters an orbital period that results in reentry to give the pod that initial insertion without wasting onboard fuel stores. The pod itself has a thick layer of ablative paneling to get you through reentry. During that time the pod is relatively safe from being destroyed by air defenses, the enemy may know you're coming, but they can't do much about it since you're simply moving too fast to track, target, and intercept.
As the pod enters the lower atmosphere, it begins to decelerate. at that point, your speed drops from hypersonic to high supersonic speeds, and you become more vulnerable. To counter this, the pod jettisons it's outer layer, and now acts like chaff, perhaps the internal layer of the pod is made of a stealth material to further confuse air defenses. Now the enemy is trying to track a small debris field, and they can't tell whether the pod broke up, or is still a threat. Destruction of the pod is possible, but difficult.
You make it to the final kilometer of the drop, and are preparing to perform final braking before you hit the ground. This is where the pod is at it's most vulnerable, but by now, the enemy maybe has only a few seconds to engage and shoot down the pod. At this point, the drop pod functions like a HALO jump. Destruction of the pod is very possible, but the enemy's response time is at it's minimum, especially since the pod is under the radar at this point or it will be very soon.
This applies to hypersonics right now, but may not apply 20 years from now, and certainly won't apply 100 years from now. As the video states, it takes quite a while to fall from orbit, or even very high up. And the sky doesn't have ground clutter or a pesky horizon to mask your approach. Furthermore, human beings don't do great at hypersonic speeds, or rather don't do great with the accelerations and thus forces induced by doing anything more complicated than moving in a straight line. At the distances involved, the hypersonic projectile is no different from any other target moving in a predictable direction.
As the pod decelerates, this problem gets even more pronounced, and the tug of war between sensors and stealth takes over. Can the sensors filter out chaff? Can you detect emissions from the pod? All depends on the sensor capabilities of the defender, and as the pod gets closer those sensors become better at their job.
If we want to be 'realistic' then we need to consider both sides of the equation rather than measuring orbital drops vs. current era technology. And physics. We're already working on countermeasures to hypersonics. We already HAVE countermeasures to small fast moving supersonic and subsonic projectiles.
Hypersonic cruise missiles are a bad comparison, because the main reason they're dangerous is that they can stay at relatively low altitude and hide from your sensors beyond the horizon for most of their flight path. What you really want to look at are ballistic missile reentry vehicles, which can achieve speeds greater than most hypersonic missiles on descent, but will normally appear on their target's radar screens well before reaching apogee, say five minutes into a thirty minute flight, because a drop pod is basically one of those, just larger, even less able to use the horizon for concealment, and, traditionally, trading the ascent portion of the flight for a much longer fall form the higher orbits.
While it is true that ballistic reentry vehicles have historically been considered somewhere between impossible and difficult to intercept during their terminal phase (reentry and descent), weapons capable of shooting them down have been filtering in since 1990, when Patriot PAC-2 was first deployed, and missiles that can make the intercept in space started becoming operational in the mid 2000s, but were technically feasible since the 1970s and delayed only by international treaty. Sure the latter will need to be mounted on larger boosters or piggyback off fixed launch infrastructure to reach outside of low orbit, but that seems a small sacrifice to make in the face of targets with a window of hours or even days instead of minutes between launch and atmospheric interface. It's safe to say ballistic missile defenses will be seeing much improvement over the next few decades, let alone the next few centuries or millennia and, so long as the drop pods are reliant on a physical heat shield, the interceptors won't even need to grow in size to be effective against them, just punch a small hole and wait for it to reenact Columbia on reentry.
And that is to say nothing of the potential for surface to orbit lasers, which, even aren't powerful enough to burn through a heat shield, should be more than capable of stripping away the mass of inflatable decoys that will accompany the pods until they hit the atmosphere (much like those mixed in with real life MIRVs), or various forms of electromagnetic accelerator guns, which will probably be firing guided projectiles the equivalent of missile lofted kill vehicles, that often share a setting with fictional drop pods. Or that is is entirely feasible with current rocket technology to build a shoulder launched anti satellite weapon which could take chunks out of heat shields just as well as those weapons mounted on larger rockets in the last couple hundred kilometers of approach. Its a lot harder to suppress ground defenses from orbit when an effective surface to orbit battery can be as small as a single Toyota Hilux or a few dudes camping in the woods.
So, short version, attrition rate of drop pods is going to be absolutely astronomical in anything even approaching a contested drop, so much so that putting personnel in them is all but fully contraindicated, because even if there's ten decoys for every pod and nine out of every ten pods carries only automated weapons or supplies, you're still going to struggle to land a coherent, combat effective force. Even if you've bombarded the planet halfway back to the stone age or are aiming the drop at a land mass you've already largely secure you're still likely to lose a few to light weapons.
And before anyone suggests that you can reduce the threat to the drop pods by running a ship down to disgorge them in LEO or high atmosphere, that's just transferring the threat to the ship which, thanks to being a larger target, is just as, if not more vulnerable to the ground launched, suborbital kinetic missiles which will dominate those altitudes. Their own orbital velocity is their weakness, as an object that has been shot straight up or is falling straight down will still hit them at four or five times the speed of the fastest modern tank shells.
It still doesn't make much sense to drop soft human troops, that's why in (real) Starship Troopers they were tank-like mechas armed with tactical nukes.
@@StacheMan26Surface to orbit lasers are practically impossible, at least assuming there's an atmosphere. Air simply diffracts and attenuates lasers far too much over longer distances; that's why the US Air Force has dropped its programme for developing airborne anti-ballistic missile lasers (those big 747s with huge lense gimbals on the nose). It just doesn't work.
Also, saying that it's possible with current technology to create shoulder-launched ASAT missiles is ludicrous, sorry. I've seen just how big rockets get before they can reach even the very lowest of space; the tyranny of the rocket equation is very real.
You have some good points, but you're also very wrong about some things.
If you have the tech to make a drop pod that a human can survive the deceleration phase at the end of then you should also have the tech to bombard the target area as well. Might be a bit harder to pick off the drop pods if your defense emplacements are getting fired on as well. This leaves the defenders with a choice, try and intercept the pods or try and intercept the incoming munitions.
One part about drop pods that does make sense is that they are smaller and more maneuverable targets than the big ships that dropped them, so instead of shooting at your expensive ships the enemy is wasting lots of ammo to kill just a few soldiers. And the first pods you dropped were decoys and weapons platforms that shoot back at anything trying to take them out, so by the time you actually send your soldiers down there are fewer defenses shooting at them and your fleet knows where most of them are. Then the soldiers will be trying to locate any hidden defenses kept in reserve and either destroy them or relay targeting data to the ships that can either shoot at them or guide a decoy pod to fall on them without braking. This should take out enough defenses that you can land the big ships unless the enemy had buries some backup backup defensive weapons really deep just to wait until you try that.
I find it interesting how common this concept is in sci-fi.
Really, this isn't too far out of the realm of realistic feasibility - even by today's standards.
All you would need is a specially modified space plane, some troops, and some reentry pods, and you could have boots on the ground anywhere in the world in less than an hour.
(Edit)
Okay, okay, okay, guys.
By "realm of feasibility," I meant in comparison to star ships and warp drive and other things you see in sci-fi.
Is it practical? No. But it is something I could see used in a fictional story that takes place present day or in the near future as an insane and desperate strategy in the 11th hour.
The general is like, "You're insane," and the hero is like, "yes, but what other choice do we have, sir."
The problem is that you'll get the exact situation that WW2 paras and the VDV faced in late WW2 and the initial phases of Ukraine, respectively: if anything more than a stiff breeze of resistance shows up, they'll get *_MAULLED_* before the main force arrives. That's before adding the fact that fighting from the air is a *_death sentence_* if the enemy has *_SEMI-COMPETENT_* IADS in place (as Serbia and, increasingly, Ukraine prove... hell the SU-25 hasn't been anywhere near the frontlines for the better part of a year and every helicopter has been reduced to being flying Grads).
That's why the US basically reworked all its para units into either air-mobile or air-assault units, with only one unit still being paras because they want to keep the institutional knowledge alive.
@TheTrueAdept Oh yeah, it's totally not practical for open warfare.
I was thinking more along the lines of black ops or getting rapid reinforcements to a covert team.
That's why us defence pays Musk big bucks for Starship
@@mitwhitgaming7722 A drop pod is not exactly subtle. Not sure why you would want to use them for black ops. And using them as reinforcements for a covert team just means the guys in drop pods need reinforcements themselves as they draw every enemy to their location.
@@mitwhitgaming7722 All countries, especially US have already solved that. It's called HALO jumps and it's used in very limited way as it's impractical in all but a very few instances
Drop pods can be very situational or useful, depending on the type of story that you have:
- They are very good for putting weapons, ammunition, and supplies on the ground.
- There can be the issue of cost in creating a drop pod that's capable of holding one soldier versus a landing transport that holds many.
- Drop pods can get wasted by anti-air defenses.
- Maybe it's possible to create something stealth-like in deploying a few soldiers on the ground without alerting defenses.
Stealth is actually a very good reason to use drop pods. Turns out, humans are visible on radar, and not particularly stealthy either. Significantly more stealthy than most 3rd gen fighters, but definitely not more stealthy than anything 4th gen. Plus, you can put wings on them and glide them. Parachutes are stealthy, but they don't exactly enclose the human.
" Drop pods can get wasted by anti-air defenses. "
Do you know what gets wasted MORE by AA?
Dropships, landingcraft (the big ones) and paratroopers that spend most of their time hanging in perfect AA range. ^^
Pods are designed to come in MUCH faster than any of these, spend as little time as possible in the slowing down phase, while giving the occupants at least a little bit of protection and let the occupants survive the much harder landing.
My favorid variation are the warhammer 40k ones because they drop entire squads, are fairly heavily armored (giving the astartes they drop some cover uppon disebarking) and deploy automated turrets from the top to give firesupport.
(And they are big enough to deploy light-ish vehicles such as walkers, bikes and landspeeders.)
A few things:
Drop pods have different speeds depending on atmosphere density.
Dropping into Venus versus Mars?
Armored Trooper Votoms, Red Shoulder air drops.
Decoy. WW2 have dummies dropped.
The Expanse, Season 6 against the rail guns...
Suppression: Artillery hitting before landing.
Drop pods are just fancy parachute deployments.
One of the head-canon items in one of my fantasy settings are called "zip packs" - They're a belt and harness system meant for jumping off of buildings high up or planes or whatever. But instead of parachutes, they use an energy cell to fire off plasma jet thrusters to slow the fall. (though there's an alternate that just pushes back against gravity, which is silent). It really only decelerates long enough and in enough force to make for a "safe" landing. It isn't necessarily soft or fun. .. Pretty much like how a parachute landing is from a static line or ejecting from an aircraft. With training though, you can stick the landing pretty easily. Or an advanced program can create a more controlled landing. While it's not a drop pod, it's kind of the same kind of concept.
Regarding the ability to shoot down drop pods on atmosphere entry, one of the details i loved about the SST novel was during the initial drop against the skinnies, the Mobile Infantry uses a mix of jammers, chaff, bombs, and decoy pods to give the power armored units time to hit the deck and begin operations.
Yeah, the raid on the Skinnies was more scare tactics than actual combat. They only sent in the Roughnecks. A re battle would have seen more troopers deployed, so they had to make it harder for the skinnies to hit the 40 men that were deployed.
From what I remember, Muv-luv did something similar to make sure the drop troops reached the ground. And the fact they they even reached the ground in the first place given the insane AA capabilities of their foes, it is quite telling on just how much of this they used.
In helldivers the ships you see blowing up are actually other squads being wiped. The ships that blow up are always the ones you can see providing support to the beacons below you for the other squads on the planet
No they arent other players ships, when I played on a planet that was already liberated (its a glitch, just have an unfinished mission on an already liberated planet) there were plenty of super destroyers near the mission site
I’m just happy to see footage from the Roughnecks cartoon. It was a nice halfway point between the movie and the book.
Every single disadvantage you mentioned is directly and laboriously addressed in Heinlein’s Starship Troopers (1959), which, I might add, invented the concepts of orbital insertion and mech combat.
Yeah the disadvantages are tackled with the setting own fiction which involve the autor creating the worldbuilding to fit the pods into the world's plausibility.
I actually seriously doubt he 'invented' either of thouse idea. Starship Troopers POPULARIZED the concepts, but I'm sure a search of the literature would find earlier references because these are not difficult concepts to come up with for a Science Fiction writer.
The Starship Troopers movie should be remade with 99% accuracy to the book.
@@kennethferland5579 You realize Starship Troopers was published in 1959, right? There's not a whole lot of science fiction that's older than it. I would downgrade your "seriously doubt" to a "kinda doubt" just to be on the safe side.
@@AlindBack 100%. I'd be curious if anyone can find a scifi novel that pre-dates the original Starship Troopers book and makes use of drop pods.
Not saying a lesser known example *can't* exist, but Heinlein definitely would have been the source of inspiration for most works featuring drop pods to come after his book.
Despite the satirical and "Rule of Cool" nature of Helldivers, I think it actually has a pretty believable take on how interstellar war could be conducted. Instead of massive armies clashing in conventional battles, you have small and mobile ground units specifically equipped to control objectives and act as spotters for aerospace assets. The game's insane attention to detail further sells the concept, making it surprisingly immersive. Whether or not hypothetical future nations would use something like drop pods over a more conventional means of transport remains to be seen, but it's hard to deny the "extreme sci-fi paratrooper" allure of drop pods.
when you realize, the most "unrealistic" thing in Helldivers are the capes 😆
The original “Starship Troopers”(the book) explains these concepts (and others) in details.
I really recommend it.
I disagree with your vision of interstellar battles, though there are probably plenty of universes where you might be right, I don't think ours is one.
If we take a hard sci fi / irl approach to this, *interstellar* war implies absolutely prodigious amounts of ressources involved given you hate someone enough to be at war for centuries, millennia or millions of years.
If you are engaging in interstellar war then it happening with at least partial K2 civilisations, which implies populations starting in the low quadrillions at least.
I am assuming that this is a war of survival for the leaders on both sides and that they are in a war economy or even total mobilisation. (Think WW1 levels of commitment)
I am also assuming most of the star system is in on the war because you won't have asteroid SOL-58382 in sol *actually* fighting asteroid AC-462728 in Alpha Centaurus, both going to total war because one called the other ugly.
Anyway, we have established that there are quadrillions (more likely septillions) of people committed on both sides to at least see the government of the opposing side gone, and they dont want to simply kill everyone in the other star system.
They aren't gonna send 1 000 ships and 1 million soldiers.
They aren't sending 1 million ships and 1 billion soldiers.
They are sending 1 billion (more like 1 trillion) ships and 1 trillion to one quadrillion soldiers, and that's being conservative. Ofc my numbers aren't perfect, you are probably sending in the quintillion of soldiers but anyway.
I hope you get why I don't think your vision of **interstellar** warfare would exist, at least IRL.
Now what you say could probably be applied if we are talking in hard sci fi wars between earth countries or asteroid A and B each with a few million people
Nope, interstellar war will likely be conducted with massive armies anyway, for airpower (or naval power) alone doesn't win wars. *_ARMIES_* do.
@@KaizerKlash111But moving these incredible high mumber of ships and soldiers would be crazy expensive. So I see why the single ship and soldier would become bigger, better equipped and more expensive. The cost of transport would make having only expensive elite troops much more economically viable.
You may want to read the novel Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein. In the novel, most of your issues are dealt with. For example, as the pods the troopers are in fall, they shed skin as chafe to confuse enemy radar, plus some of the pods are dummies to add to the confusion. The troopers in the pods have all the situational awareness they need through external sensors tied into the suit HUD's. These pods don't land with the troopers inside. At the trooper's command, the pod shell gets blown away adding to the chafe chaos and chutes are deployed which also interrupt the enemy tracking. Then the chutes are jettisoned at the trooper's discretion, whereupon they rely on built in jump jets incorporated into the combat armour to land and move around.
The Starship Troopers novel is one of the earliest depictions and still one of the best. The mobile infantry deploy in individual pods for reentry and after slowing appropriately the pods break apart acting as chaff to help protect the soldier from enemy AA fire. Actual touch down is executed by the use of chutes and the armor jump jets.
my favorite version of drop pods are from the book of Starship Troopers. how it was depicted as being an hot drop type. meaning it was meant to fired into combat. the way the metal shell of the pod scattered into counter measures like chaff and flares (being as the metal being super hot) it had deacceleration booster plus a parachute.
Its not a drop pod from space. But one of my favourite depictions of a rapid deployment drop system was in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, where they fire this gel material that they land in that rapidly evaporates allowing them a fast and near silent stealthy landing.
Probably highly impractical (what if you miss?) but I also loved this.
7:45 As Heinlein said in the book Starship Troopers, you don't use an axe handle to spank a baby. This is why you may use infantry instead of "real weapons";).
remember: When you did the Drop Pod Assault on Intallation 05 in Halo 2, Cortana did shout at Cheif asking him if he could be Any Louder.
then Master Cheif pulls a SPNKR from the Drop Pod and Cortana stands corrected.
OMG THAT'S MY VIDEO AT 7:33- always crazy to see my videos show up in youtubers I love!
Based SE player
I think the re-purposed cargo containers in the Battle of the Slow Zone in The Expanse also counts as drop pod infantry. I like it as an example because it takes into account all the work needed to occupy the defenses enough to get a minority of the pods through.
Another form of drop pod I like that sadly wasn't mentioned here are the pod from Call of Duty Advanced Warfare.
While they're by no means orbital, instead being dropped from dropships at maybe a few thousand feet, they still fit the function and aesthetic of an orbital drop pod. These drop pods carry a squad of infantry, and contain external cameras and maneuvering thrusters as well as a viewing screen for the squad leader to steer the pod toward its target. I think the main reason they exist over paratroopers(in this specific low-altitude context) is that the troops reach the ground faster than paratroopers and are somewhat protected by the armored pod. It also allows a squad to stay together when dropping instead of potentially being spread out in a field, and can be dropped into dense urban environments.
"...multiple simultaneous and devastating deep strikes using Drop Pods. The Codex Astartes calls this manoeuver 'Steel Rain'..."
Cpt. Boreale of the Blood Ravens
You mentioned a lot of disadvantages that are already adressed by various settings you brought up.
Also, a pod is actually a harder target than a parachute.
Now we need a breakdown video on the . . . *checks notes* . . . "Bang Bang Shooty Gun".
Also known as the personal portable projectilator or the make-hole-over-there thingie.
When Lord Edward Grey said the British army should be a projectile to be fired by the Royal Navy, I don't think this is what he had in mind, but I'm sure he would have approved.
The opening scene of Gundam Seed has one of the best drop pod scenes imo. The pods serve two roles. First: Survive the heat of reentry into earth's atmopshere, second (hopefully) absorb AA bombardment of the defending forces until it gets deep enough to deliver its load to the battlefield without it getting shredded in said AA bombardment.
Zaft really had a good orbit-to-earth deployment and transport system. Both using fast snd disposable drop pod for battlefield drops, and a reuseable glider capsule that are unfortunately rarely seen, used to drop supplies and troops to friendly.
In Destiny, as much ad ppl want to harp on that show, Zaft mass dropped those reuseable capsules to deliver supply to Earth as disaster relief.
One of my favorite battle drops is in section 8 (Videogame) just stay power suit, crash landing, and the off running.
The mid-90s TV show Exo-Squad splits the difference, launching drop-ships and then disgorging pods of jump troops once the drop ship is close enough. Pods are sometimes launched and abandoned, and other times are lowered on cables and then retrieved, depending on how hot the landing zone is, the terrain, and other factors. I actually think Exo-Squad thought it through better than any other show.
This is not to be confused with exo-frames (AKA e-frames), which are sometimes launched from drop shops, other times from as high as orbit.
Droppods are also integral to Planetside 2. For quite a long time, there was no tutorial, your first experience after making a character was hot-dropping straight into the biggest fight on the continent.
Nowadays, there's other variants and uses too. As a squad-leader, using outfit resources you can call in a Steel Rain, forcibly redeploying anyone not in a vehicle and dropping them simultaneously.
There's also the ANVIL variants, acting as vehicle drops.
In the science-fantasy setting I have created myself, there is a type of troops called the "Space Drop Regiments". (Rough translation from Polish "pułk przestrzennodesantowy".) Divisional size units of this were a thing during the 2nd and 3rd Great Confrontations (the most severe wars of that world), but only temporarily for the duration of conflicts. Their structure and mission profile is as follows:
The Space Drop Regiments are light combarm units, equipped with Stryker-esque wheeled vehicles of a unified design and oversize logistical assets (if there even is such thing in the practice of warfare). Such regiment includes following units:
-HQ company x1 (CP, comms, medical aid station, plus everything accomodation-related)
-Light mech infantry batallion x1:
-HQ x1 (CP plus everything logistics-related)
-Light mech infantry company x3
-SPAA detachment x1 (platoon-size)
-Wheeled tank company x1 (vehicles a'la Stryker MGS or Italian Centauro)
-SP artillery battery x1 (heavy mortas/light howitzers on a Stryker-like vehicle)
-Recon company x1
-ATGM detachment x2 (platoon-size)
-SPAA detachment x2 (platoon-size)
-Fuelling unit x1 (platoon-size)
-Supply company x1
-Maintenance detachment x1 (somewhere in-between platoon and company size)
Engineering/clearance detachment x1 (platoon-size).
Said units are ladden into descent apparatusses the size of a 12-storey apartment building, to be dropped in from orbit (or from a hyperbolic fly-by trajectory). Each such apparatus typically features a reentry shield, sets of maneuvering and braking engines complete with propellant, articulated retractable airbrakes for use in lower atmosphere and several tons of various decoys to avoid enemy flak and ground-to-space weaponry. In case of invading a world with no atmosphere, the heatshield and the airbrakes are removed and replaced with additional propellant and/or engines for propulsive deceleration. The vehicles (16 per apparatus, with landing troops inside) are attached radially to a central truss and covered up with hull plating, attached via explosive bolts.
The regiment is designed to fit into nine descent apparatusses, carried externally on three amphibious-warfare ships (naval terminology used as placeholder until I come up with something more appropriate). A fourth ship with further three apparatusses usually follows, carrying the bulk of regiment's supplies for immediate delivery. The infantry batallion (ship #1) usually lands first, closely followed by the contents of ship #2 (HQ company, tanks, recon, SPAA and ATGM), and the rear components (incl. artillery) arrives only after the perimeter is more or less secured.
The intended landing zone is usually carpet-bombed from orbit (or sometimes hyperbolic-dive-bombed from a high-velocity flyby) before the drop itself. As the descent apparatusses are released onto their, well... descent, the amphibious-warfare ships provide EW support, primarily by the means of barrage-jamming any enemy radars within the general area (i.e. large part of a continent) with immense power. After reentry (if relevant) and deceleration to a velocity low enough, the descent apparatusses are spun up, their hull plating is blown off, and the payload is released (thrown out by centrifugal force to avoid collisions). Each of the carried terrestial vehicles is kitted out with a package of parachutes and deceleration rockets, appropriate for the target world's atmosphere and gravity, for a VDV-style semi-propulsive touchdown (or propulsive, if there is no atmosphere). Meanwhile, the apparatus itself crash-lands. It is usually ladden with the most crash-resistant part of the regiment's supplies.
When the vehicles, together with their occupants, touch the ground, the landed units engage in battle (if enemy is present at or near LZ), set up a perimeter and attempt to break through to the adjacent regiments (if present) in order to establish a continuous front line. When this is achieved, a construction regiment is dropped in alongside additional equipment and supplies,, tasked with establishing proper rear infrastructure, most importantly a field refineries for producing synthetic fuel (and HTP in case of low-oxygen environments), as well as rocket propellant, and an airstrip for spaceplanes, to establish a proper logistical line between the surface and the orbit. When that is done, regular units (non-Space Drop) may be landed via spaceplane, and proper strategic offensive operations on the ground may begin.
What do you think?
P.S. Sorry if my English is crappy.
This is glorious. You are my kind of nerd, never change. Also, your English is pristine.
Honestly, if you have a big enough deceleration system you can droppod just about anything. From tanks to prefab bases.
And at that point it becomes a bit of a catch 22 especially if we go to the absolutely upper end of the spectrum and drop a Hive city sised complex with automated defences.
Assuming you have the capabilities you're dead if you destroy it and likelly dead if you don't.
One example of dropship I wanna mention, which really emphasizes the word ship, are the Landing Castles from Aldnoah; Zero.
They're massive spire-like ships capable of deploying thousands of infantry with their affiliated aircraft & mechs.
It also acts like an FOB & can fire a large number of guided missiles for either saturation attacks or more precise actions such as targeting large bunkers & underwater network cables.
Drop pods are really just para drops but from outer space. So there are similar advantages and disadvantages. The same could be said about drop ships vs helicopter delivery. If they could replace the paratrooper's parachute with a box that allowed them to slam into the ground at terminal velocity without injury and/or death, modern generals would absolutely do so. The faster it falls, the less vulnerable to anti-air fire, so that slamming into the ground thing would still be an important advantage even if it is not perfect.
I like the way star ship troops the book handles drop pods my self.
In some novel with drop pods or troops, it was described that a lot of dummies are deployed to distract AA fire.
I think it was Starship Troopers, but I'm not sure. Been a long time since I read that.
Skycranes are pretty cool imo. I really like the idea of an expendable package containing a heat shield, and retrorocket crane being used to rapidly land heavy objects safely. Ever since curiosity did it, i haven’t been dissuaded
Don't forget that the drop pods in helldivers are shaped like bullets, your helldivers aren't being used as human soldiers, but as AMMUNITION FIRED AT THE ENEMY.
David Weber's drop pods from his Fury book does a pretty good showing of the analog between paratroopers and drop troops, with quite a bit of focus on the issues with both.
The first has the troops drop straight into an ambush waiting for them with heavy AA.
The second is going to relieve the survivors of the first and have to drop while hoping the survivors take out of the active AA site before it can target the pods.
The third has the attacking force use dozens of empty (but otherwise real) pods as decoys for each "real" pod and has the decoys drop into places where it looks like the decoys are real and vise versa.
Also having getting over the drop time by basically firing the pods rail gun style into the ground at well above free fall speed, then slowing down with magic antigravity physics.
Drop pods are a great way to either quickly deploy reinforcements onto a battlefield or place a specialized small unit in a precise location to complete a specific mission. Other than that, they are mostly useless. They are a very niche piece of military equipment but that doesn’t make them impractical for those specific scenarios.
The real Starship Troopers, as in the book, had a good explanation of how they pulled off orbital drops. The ships would blast anything they saw on the ground while jamming everything, the pods would be dropped with shitload of decoys and chaff, and the pods themselves would break apart into more decoys on the way down. The troopers would slow down with a series of parachutes, and make touchdown with the thrusters in their power armor.
I think that would work fairly well against most individually targeted anti-air weapons, but if the guys on the ground decide to go with high altitude nukes in the middle of that blob on their sensors, I'd hate to be in one of those pods.
Well, likely their ablative shields will withstand a smaller nuke too. Plus, such a nuke would be suicidal for those who launched it.
@@noop9k The shockwave in atmosphere will send everything remotely near it ass over teakettle even if it doesn't destroy them outright. Plus, a nuke high up poses little danger to those on the ground aside from EMP, and there's undoubtedly plenty of those going around anyway. Military hardware should withstand that anyway.
@@tickticktickBOOOOM if a nuke can cause noticeable damage to heat shielded mecha at, say, 10 km, then it will cause serious damage to civilians at, say, 50. At what height you want to blow it up?
I imagine the reason the Super Destroyer eventually have to go back to high orbit is to avoid giving a QRF which could contain anti ship weapons from being brought into range of the Destroyers.
Super Destroyers actually follow the Helldivers down into the lower atmosphere!
When the time for a mission runs out, the announcer voice tells us "We have to go, the Super Destroyer cant stay this low for any longer!"
The nebulous fleet command battle ready music was throwing me for a serious fucking loop this video.
Loved the drop onto the drill platform in Star Trek 2009
Huh I'm surprised you. Didn't mention cap troopers from starship troopers who I heard were original inspiration for ODST. The experience of insertion was really detailed in the book. Ifrc they had more of a power armor like the old 1988 OVA, it had certain and AAA counter measures, and even used the initial capsule as a chaff. When they landed they were highly maneuverable leapfroging like the hulk, and reasonably armed.
saw you posted this 52 seconds ago. And yes, I've been spreading DEMOCRACY all weekend!
Come to the Western front, we require assistance.
So for those of you who are too good to have heard this line, the destroyers are indeed NOT in orbit.On a long mission, At the 5 minute warning, you get the message from your captain "window is closing helldiver, we cant stay this low for much longer." If youre not ready to go, the extraction ship is automatically called and WILL leave without you, suggesting the urgency of this statement. I believe this suggests that the destroyers are staying in atmo, below orbit, and are burning massive resources to do so. The on bridge liason has a throwaway line that says "you know, each helldiver mission is approx the same cost as a liberty class cruiser." Keeping such a massive spacefaring ship in atmo conditions would go a LONG way to explaining this cost, because arty sure as hell aint that expensive.
Now I imagine some future drop pod isekai manga in the works. Feet first into another world.😅
In some decently written fiction, drop pods are also launched alongside anti-tracking items, like flares, chaff, mock pods that deliberately draw missile/cannon fire by presenting a much louder signature to lock onto, and also carrying ECM of some kind to shield their approach from sensors. It's a lot harder to knock down 50 drop pods when 150 things are coming down from orbit, a quarter of them actually able to be locked onto by computer systems, and the rest have to be manually targetted. It gives the occupants, whether they be individual soldiers, teams, squads, a mobile suit, or a mobile suit group a better chance of getting to ground before someone picks them off with a weapon.
Not that it works 100% of the time. But it does increase the odds.
That said, most drop pod users in those universes already know that there's a good chance they might never make ground, each jump. or that something could go wrong and they could 'dig their own grave', if you catch the metaphor. But it's what they signed on for when they agreed to do a drop assault. They knew the risks.
*“And where is the Prince who can afford so to cover his Country with Troops for its Defense, as that Ten Thousand Men descending from the Clouds, might not in many Places do an infinite deal of Mischief, before a Force could be brought together to repel them?”*
-Ben Franklin
Will you be doing a ship break down of the Destroyer from Helldivers?
The idea of "kicking in the door" by slaming down in a drop pod just have something natural badass to it.
One thing we don't see often (to my knowledge) is combining drop pods strategy with IRL paratroopers jumps like HALO/HAHO. The pods launch from orbit (or a lower altitude as you point out) with the aid of thrusters to avoid the slow reentry issue. And at the given altitude (depending if it's a HALO or HAHO) troopers jump out to their mission while the pods can litteraly become a guided kinetic warheads. In a way you mix a surprise bombardment with MFF operations. Kind of unnecessary dangerous but for a sci fi setting it seems legit
"The oil won't retrieve itself" is more sad and real than I've seen in a long while...
Undying Mercenaries has an interesting drop pod system. Troopers line up and drop down a hole in the deck, as they're falling two halves of a pod are slammed together around them before its loaded into a cannon.
If that sounds like a great way to loose a limb it is so keep 'em tucked in. There are always losses to defensive fire or splatting but that's what the revival machines on the lifters that come down once a beachhead is secured are for.
If at first you don't succeed, call in an air strike.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving may not be for you.
Super cool to see footage from Rubix Raptor being used in a Spacedock video. Great work!
An alternative to the troops landing on the ground with the pod is them jumping out before it hits the ground, with the pod turning into a missile.
If you have ever played any flavor of the Bettletech pen and paper tabletop RPG. They use dropships that come in from Jumpships from the systems' jump points.They bring in a mech platoon or support troops and supplies. The added benefit of droships is that they are armed and armoured to enemy air assets and any mechs in the drop zone.
Yeah.... but BT also has droppods as well.
Mechs, BA, even tanks and infantry can be dropped from orbiting dropships.
Also from dropships in atmosphere without the pods.
This is usually done to secure an LZ for the dropships or to seize objectives that you cannot land a dropship at. (Not enough flat ground).
Example of the latter would be during Battle of Tikonov during 4SW the entire 7th Crucis Lancers mech regiment (all 108+ mechs) was dropped into the city of Tikograd from something like fifty thousand feet.
For my money, I feel like drop pod troopers would be closer akin to air borne glider troops. They could still be pretty damn light and fast, but able to insert with a lot more heavy weapons and supplies, and like you said possibly even light vehicles. Paratroopers in the traditional sense are usually extremely limited on that sort of thing and if they can so it at all, tend to need to be dropped in with supply drops in parallel with the troops themselves which is extremely fraught with risk.
The whole concept of drop pods and drop ships in sci-fi is to address the real need of boots on the ground to take control instead of sterilize from orbit. You have to have some means of getting them there, and orbital / suborbital insertion based on real life methods with the same "flaws" are the easiest to depict.
If you had some sort of quickly disippating gel that was pumped into your body cavity, neck/head support and something to redirect the impact on your limbs. You could get that cool movie drop pod impact. I could see body modifications being the tell tale sign of drop troopers.
one advantage i can see of drop pods over parachutes is speed. sure the drop pod isn't going to be stealthy, but it WILL be fast. if your goal is "deliver trooper / big power ASAP" a drop pod might be the better option as parachutes always need to do that "slow down a float around" thing, which just gives them more time to be shot at if spotted, meanwhile drop pods would be much harder to hit if shot at, due to their sheer speed in falling.
There also might be an accuracy factor. Drop pods go in one direction: down. Whereas parachutes tend to go sideways and float around a bit. if you need something to be "here and exactly here" with little variation, a low-altitude drop pod might do it better then a parachute.
Nice that the Roughnecks cartoon got a showing. I rewatched it a couple years back for the first time since I was young and was a little impressed by the more realistic method of flying in a dropship into the atmosphere that then deploys the pods. I also distinctly remember a scene where they deploy a couple of fighters via loading them into a bigger carrier and then releasing them once it's achieved re-entry.
My fav version is from quake 2 and 4. They had some travel time and were more like little starships than parachutes with extra steps. They could fly for a bit before landing, meaning they could come down and skim the horizon, coming in in below possible defenses against orbital targets. They were still vulnerable to flak fire and AAguns, but so were other troop delivery vehicles.
The fact that someone else remembers that Starship Troopers: Roughneck Chronicles is a thing that existed brings joy to my heart.
My first exposure to this trope was in the GDI campaign of Tiberian Sun and I’ve really been in love with the idea ever since. Really takes the appeal of the line commando inserted dramatically behind enemy lines and jacks it up on steroids.
I liked the drop pods in the last couple of missions of Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast. They were big and chunky, and capable of operating as forward command posts once landed.
I like this channel... most of the time.
It is amazing how many things are either glossed over or completely omitted. I created a sci-fy story that went over as much of the drop as possible, and there is a hell of a lot more than just shooting a pod out of the ship. In fact, even with all the details, a few of my fans points a few small points I missed.
Orbital drops... it's complicated.
Finally! I was wondering when you'd make a video on my newest favorite game
Super interesting! I had never thought about reducing the lateral orbital momentum before.
Maybe dropods could be slightly different: Use a big pod that is dropped but then ejects the ocupants at a certain altitude, the pod itself would be disposable and could hold vehicles that would drop with it. This could be done when needing to drop units into a locations without endangering a spacecraft that would need to land and then extract itself back to orbit. Kinda like a glider in WW2
I always play helldivers like Space JTAC simulator. Trying to keep my distance, work with my teammates, and use my stratagems to complete objectives from afar. Especially on the robots, keeping scouts and drop ships from knowing your exact position is how you succeed at higher difficulties. Distance and air support are your best friend.
Drop pods in StarCraft II were interesting one as well. Seen in Heart of the Swarm campaign, these drop pods can be launched from the battlecruisers in the lower atmosphere and AA defense destroys some before they break into the science facility. In the actual mission, drop pods break the ceiling and land right on the floor, while some of them fail to stop and goes below the floor.
Good point, Helldivers aren't ODST or Tempestus Scions, they're literal navy liaisons. They're there solely to provide precision and button pressing capabilities to space assets. Other branches exist in Helldivers universe, but we usually find them already dead😅
The Red Rising books did this, but with entire armies. The 'Iron Rains' as they called them were known to have horrendous casualty rates and were explicitly stated to be used by commanders with 'too many troops and not enough time' to take extremely difficult objectives when enemy reinforcements were only days away from the planet/moon.
I'm glad you mentioned the difficulties of the rods from god. And that aiming is VERY hard.
You didn't mention all of the G's a trooper would have to absorb with the sudden stop at the end. That slam into the ground would equal mush on the inside of the drop pod.
Another factor is this: in orbit, you are already on a vector. Changing your inclination to hit a specific target requires immense delta-v (fuel). Launching suborbital (surface to surface) puts you directly on the appropriate vector and saves a lot of effort (you never need to go to orbit in the first place, even). It would likely be quicker than dropping from orbit, even if you had infinite fuel and delta-v up there.
This reminds me of your exemplary work on ‘Planetary Invasions’ some time ago
im imagining a slightly different purpose and design for drop pods. instead of dropping the things straight down into anti-aircraft and anti-orbital weapons they're made to be hypersonic glide vehicles that descend into an atmosphere before covering a significant distance to reach the target while remaining below their radar horizon for as long as possible. you use drop PODS again to reduce the radar signature and the chance to intercept it during the final approach before the pod breaks apart and the occupant parachutes to the ground. they'd be used to rapidly threaten a wide area around the main landing zone, since you need to concentrate your fire on that landing zone to clear AA but still need to disrupt the enemy around that spot to stop counter-attacks pushing you back off the planet.
I think a potential role I could see for drop troopers, and drop pods in general, is as stopgap reinforcements or resupply while defending. Drop them behind friendly lines, and now you either have a couple more bodies on the line or a few more bullets for your troops so your forces have a slightly better chance at holding long enough for more sizeable reinforcements to arrive.
You’re basically all forward observers. In the US army Theyre called 13 Foxes, nickname of Fisters. Sure you can barrage a planet into lifelessness, but having a forward observer makes it easier to find or locate targets accurately with minimal cost in comparison. Seems like Helldivers universe ships are Soviet style, lots of firepower but not a lot of armor to reduce cost
As someone who plays space engineers, the short clip at 7:34 is super impressive.
In the Red Rising series the Gold soldiers aren't dropped in pods. But in large suits of power-armor called Starshells which have friction armor that sheds after they hit the atmosphere. They also have Gravboots so they can fly around and not get picked off as easily. It's called an Iron Rain and it's very cool.
One thing I don't think I've ever seen but think of all the time is a Mini-Drop Pod that has either a single person stored in a "transporter" buffer or even an entire Squad and they all just "beam" into a spot even if it's shielded. You can have great infiltration of a single person, or get a small platoon into an area you can't transport people into directly. Or have a single guy literally carry his platoon into an area for a great Trojan attack.
vaadwaur drop pods in sto are this.
Live, Laugh, LIBERTEAAAAA.
A point of clarification, "rods from god" would take a few minutes at maximum from descent to impact and be far harder to pinpoint and identify compared to a comparable missile launch.
They're also much more useful as bunker busters as they hold little to no explosive charge, meaning they're less effective at surface targets.
A video on 'pods' in general would be worth attention. Drop Troopers or Drop Pods are pretty silly, but Escape Pods might be re-entry capable, or simply survival capsules in space. Another 'pod' worth investigation is the Breach Pod, designed to allow assault troops to capture spaceships or platforms 'undamaged'. There are a few Pros for each, and just as many Cons, but they are probably worth some discussion.
Halo wars let you use drop pods to get grizzly heavy tanks