Worcester... Good attempt in saying that one. My #3 son got his Mechanical Engineering degree from Worcester Polytechnic Institute in Worcester, MA. I never could say it correctly and was told by the locals all of the time about it.
Other supportive documents: the US Census asked citizenship questions from 1900-1940. Last of these is just a citizenship question, while the others asked when the person emigrated, and asked status (Alien to Naturalized). This helped me narrow in on the time and place window where I might find other records.
Very informative thank you Devin I also would suggest that if you want to check the Ohio River Valley along the West Virginia Ohio border I will do this we had a great amount of German polish and Czech immigrants in this area along with the Irish from my own experience of going through our County records over here and Ohio probate court records here a lot of Germans here check the Ohio River Valley Basin and anywhere outside of Franklin County Ohio I'm surprised you have not checked Zanesville Ohio I would assume you don't know this but Zanesville did have a German population at one time I know this and there is one other place you need to check Mercer County Hope this helps Devin but those are places I would check Zanesville first and :-) we all need research assistance from time to time
Just an FYI if you have ancestors in Italy and you want to find the Italian records it is like looking for a needle in a haystack to find them in Italy WITHOUT knowing the name of the exact town where they lived. Even then they moved around locally. Not uncommon for the couple to be married in HER home town and then move to HIS home town and live there. The records in Italy are primarily arranged according to the comune (closest approximation I can make is township in America) and then sometimes by church parish (if there was more than one parish within the comune or city -- such as the City of Torino).
While I agree with your wonderful insights, I wouldn't limit this to Italy only. For example, without knowing the village/town in German (which prior to 1871 was not one country), researchers will struggle greatly. Polish researchers need to know their village as well as the country was ruled by various other countries and their records are in those different country's archives. This is why I always say genealogy is about time and location. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Yes I agree. I haven't done any other European research (except UK) so I could not speak from any other experience other than Italian. I would say that in some American records sometimes the separate German places are mentioned (Hesse, Wurtemburg, Baden, Bavaria, etc.). I did a little bit of Polish research for some cousins and in some censuses (not sure how accurate it is) they would list place of origin as being Russian-Polish or Polish-Russia. Italy also has some of the same situation. Some listings as Austria prior to Italian unification. But yes I'm sure that in a lot of nations the situation is the same where the records are kept (and or organized) at the local level (especially church parish) rather than any concerted effort at a national or even provincial level. I work with other Italian researchers and this is a situation that comes up a lot. The researchers in America only knowing the general area in Italy (like the province or region) and wanting to jump into the records and find their ancestors and they will just spin their wheels and get nowhere unless they know the town. I am having that problem myself right now. My great-great grandfather was born in the Maternity Hospital in the City of Torino in 1825 but that is not where his family lived and I want to find the baptism record for the parish where they lived. I found the parish records for 1825 for the City of Torino -- some in Latin, some in Italian and I scanned through all of the baptisms in 1825 (has indexes) for all of those parishes and his baptism was not listed. So now I'm not certain where the family actually lived. Did they live in the city? Or did they live in a town outside of the city?
Places I have found mention of towns in the old country: county histories, newspapers, online cemetery comments like Find A Grave, marriage certificates (names often VERY mangled like Spracorsano in Italy. The actual name of the town is Prascorsano.), just talking to older relatives or letters from them, some ship passenger lists (Summer of 1892? I think and after that), not sure about particular local church records? Like the Catholic church registers if they would record that information for foreign born members? Also have wondered about local historical ethnic societies if they would have that information. I would also check Passport Applications at Fold3. They DID record the places of birth for persons born in America. I have not found records for foreign born citizens, but, it might be worth checking. I would think that military registrations would have the same thing because place of birth was important for American born soldiers. It's possible that they might only have the nation and not the towns where they were born but it might be worth checking anyway. I have also found that neighborhoods in the censuses where you see persons who were themselves born in a foreign country or where one or both parents were born in a foreign country that it is a good idea to follow up on ALL of the people in that neighborhood. For example if I am researching my Italian ancestors in a particular town or village in Illinois in the census I would look on that page for ALL persons who either were born in Italy, or who had one or both parents who were born in Italy or who had Italian names but perhaps listed as being born in Austria or France or Switzerland. And I have often found that they were related in some way.
I found that Passenger and Crew Lists for different ports in the United States help because they list birth countries of our ancestors, occupations, etc.
I went through the lists at Ancestry for arrivals in NYC and if I remember correctly they changed the form for the passenger list sometime in the Summer of 1892? Prior to that the form was more vertical and had less columns of information that they asked the passengers and the place of origin was just the nation and nothing more specific. But the newer form was more horizontal and had more columns and one of the things they added was the actual towns of origin. At some point they also added the name of the person they were going to stay with in the US, their relationship and their address. One could check to see which passengers had relatives in common on those lists if they were headed to the same address. Still later (not exactly sure what year) the form changed again and added the name and location of their closest relative in the old country. I have also found that passenger lists of American citizens gave information on them as well -- ages, relationships, places of birth, addresses, etc.
@@tanyakasim3988 Yes I'm actually surprised on some of the very oldest passenger lists to NYC that they would mention items like a person from England whose destination was a specific county in Pennsylvania, but, sometimes they did mention little tidbits like that.
My distant cousins from Italy (one in America, one in Italy) had a problem. They had a relative whom they found on the passenger list arriving in New York and his story ended there. They had no clue what happened to him after that. I decided to see if I could find him living in NYC after his arrival. So I searched for his surname at online newspapers for NYC and just happened to find his name (still not sure if it was him for sure) but not in NYC. In an article about a mine accident in Colorado. They were both sure it WAS him. I had my doubts. But it turns out that they were correct. Checking local probate records mentioned his having lived in a particular county in IL and then in MO (hq of the life insurance company). It also turns out that his death record WAS recorded in the home town in Italy. It was in a "Supplemental" section in the Civil Records and I mistakenly thought that section was for revisions of records in part one. Turns out that section was actually for ADDITIONAL records! Oops! But yep it was him and they now know further information about him and the sad story of how he died only a few short years after his arrival in New York. For the record the Ship Passenger List only stated his name, age, maybe occupation, that he was from Italy (maybe Northern Italian) and that his destination was NYC.
My brick wall is my 3rd great grandfather. He was born in England and immigrated before 1825. I can find no info on him as his name was very common ( a gazillion Joseph Coopers who lived in England). I’m at my wits end!
Know your pain. My great grandmother was called Mary Smith in Kent, England and although I found her father via census records, I'm stuck there as finding his birth and parents has proved impossible so far.
I recognize that you do a lot of English research Tinpalte Geek. Thus, I'm guessing you looked at Parish Baptism and Non-Conformist records and found nothing? That's so frustrating.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics No, all I have is a 1880 census where it states he was from Maidenshire England. I can’t find a Maidenshire. I’ve even scoured a map from 1800 looking for the town. I just can’t find that one piece of evidence to pin him down.
Is it possible to have entered the US after 1890 through 1910 from Europe, without having documents that can be found? Where else can we look other than Ellis Island?
Yes! According to the Library of Congress, 70 percent of all immigrants passed through Castle Garden (have you checked their website) and Ellis Island. Start local before you go to the national databases. Meaning, start in the county naturalization records where your ancestors lived for close as to when and where they arrived. You should then look at the census records to future establish the dates of naturalization and/or immigration. Then, search Castle Garden or Ellis Islands. Other potential ports of entry were Galveston, Baltimore, Boston, and Philadelphia.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Thank you for replying. Unfortunately they were Jews out of Belarus. No possibility of records there. They never show up in census documents. We believe from family stories that they lived in Baltimore where their daughter also resided. Their children were all present in the US and only hint of when the father may have died is a grandchild named for him which could only happen if he was not alive.
@@sharonjacob4782 A lot of immigrants from Europe also came in through the Port of New Orleans in Louisiana. Sometimes you find where half of the family remained in the New Orleans area but the other half continued to northern states to settle down. Happy hunting!
@@evabrechtel4321 thank you. The family all settled in Boston. They are all accounted for, just the parents. No records whatsoever and yet there are plenty of stories of visiting the Bubba and Zeida. So weird!
Worcester... Good attempt in saying that one. My #3 son got his Mechanical Engineering degree from Worcester Polytechnic Institute in Worcester, MA. I never could say it correctly and was told by the locals all of the time about it.
Yep. I tried. Being hearing impaired and Texan, I ain't good at talkin' much.
Very informative, thanks
Glad it was helpful!
Other supportive documents: the US Census asked citizenship questions from 1900-1940. Last of these is just a citizenship question, while the others asked when the person emigrated, and asked status (Alien to Naturalized). This helped me narrow in on the time and place window where I might find other records.
Yep! That's exactly so.
Óók
Very informative thank you Devin I also would suggest that if you want to check the Ohio River Valley along the West Virginia Ohio border I will do this we had a great amount of German polish and Czech immigrants in this area along with the Irish from my own experience of going through our County records over here and Ohio probate court records here a lot of Germans here check the Ohio River Valley Basin and anywhere outside of Franklin County Ohio I'm surprised you have not checked Zanesville Ohio I would assume you don't know this but Zanesville did have a German population at one time I know this and there is one other place you need to check Mercer County
Hope this helps Devin but those are places I would check Zanesville first and :-) we all need research assistance from time to time
These are great tips. I'll keep turning over stones.
Just an FYI if you have ancestors in Italy and you want to find the Italian records it is like looking for a needle in a haystack to find them in Italy WITHOUT knowing the name of the exact town where they lived. Even then they moved around locally. Not uncommon for the couple to be married in HER home town and then move to HIS home town and live there. The records in Italy are primarily arranged according to the comune (closest approximation I can make is township in America) and then sometimes by church parish (if there was more than one parish within the comune or city -- such as the City of Torino).
While I agree with your wonderful insights, I wouldn't limit this to Italy only. For example, without knowing the village/town in German (which prior to 1871 was not one country), researchers will struggle greatly. Polish researchers need to know their village as well as the country was ruled by various other countries and their records are in those different country's archives.
This is why I always say genealogy is about time and location.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Yes I agree. I haven't done any other European research (except UK) so I could not speak from any other experience other than Italian. I would say that in some American records sometimes the separate German places are mentioned (Hesse, Wurtemburg, Baden, Bavaria, etc.). I did a little bit of Polish research for some cousins and in some censuses (not sure how accurate it is) they would list place of origin as being Russian-Polish or Polish-Russia. Italy also has some of the same situation. Some listings as Austria prior to Italian unification. But yes I'm sure that in a lot of nations the situation is the same where the records are kept (and or organized) at the local level (especially church parish) rather than any concerted effort at a national or even provincial level. I work with other Italian researchers and this is a situation that comes up a lot. The researchers in America only knowing the general area in Italy (like the province or region) and wanting to jump into the records and find their ancestors and they will just spin their wheels and get nowhere unless they know the town. I am having that problem myself right now. My great-great grandfather was born in the Maternity Hospital in the City of Torino in 1825 but that is not where his family lived and I want to find the baptism record for the parish where they lived. I found the parish records for 1825 for the City of Torino -- some in Latin, some in Italian and I scanned through all of the baptisms in 1825 (has indexes) for all of those parishes and his baptism was not listed. So now I'm not certain where the family actually lived. Did they live in the city? Or did they live in a town outside of the city?
Places I have found mention of towns in the old country: county histories, newspapers, online cemetery comments like Find A Grave, marriage certificates (names often VERY mangled like Spracorsano in Italy. The actual name of the town is Prascorsano.), just talking to older relatives or letters from them, some ship passenger lists (Summer of 1892? I think and after that), not sure about particular local church records? Like the Catholic church registers if they would record that information for foreign born members? Also have wondered about local historical ethnic societies if they would have that information. I would also check Passport Applications at Fold3. They DID record the places of birth for persons born in America. I have not found records for foreign born citizens, but, it might be worth checking. I would think that military registrations would have the same thing because place of birth was important for American born soldiers. It's possible that they might only have the nation and not the towns where they were born but it might be worth checking anyway. I have also found that neighborhoods in the censuses where you see persons who were themselves born in a foreign country or where one or both parents were born in a foreign country that it is a good idea to follow up on ALL of the people in that neighborhood. For example if I am researching my Italian ancestors in a particular town or village in Illinois in the census I would look on that page for ALL persons who either were born in Italy, or who had one or both parents who were born in Italy or who had Italian names but perhaps listed as being born in Austria or France or Switzerland. And I have often found that they were related in some way.
As usual, I'm learning so much from you. Thanks so much.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Thank you. Likewise I have definitely learned a lot by watching and sharing on this channel.
I found that Passenger and Crew Lists for different ports in the United States help because they list birth countries of our ancestors, occupations, etc.
I went through the lists at Ancestry for arrivals in NYC and if I remember correctly they changed the form for the passenger list sometime in the Summer of 1892? Prior to that the form was more vertical and had less columns of information that they asked the passengers and the place of origin was just the nation and nothing more specific. But the newer form was more horizontal and had more columns and one of the things they added was the actual towns of origin. At some point they also added the name of the person they were going to stay with in the US, their relationship and their address. One could check to see which passengers had relatives in common on those lists if they were headed to the same address. Still later (not exactly sure what year) the form changed again and added the name and location of their closest relative in the old country. I have also found that passenger lists of American citizens gave information on them as well -- ages, relationships, places of birth, addresses, etc.
@@whychromosomesmusic5766 Passenger list forms certainly have changed since we first found our ancestors.
@@tanyakasim3988 Yes I'm actually surprised on some of the very oldest passenger lists to NYC that they would mention items like a person from England whose destination was a specific county in Pennsylvania, but, sometimes they did mention little tidbits like that.
Yes, the passenger lists can be very helpful. Some are easier to connect with our ancestors than others.
My distant cousins from Italy (one in America, one in Italy) had a problem. They had a relative whom they found on the passenger list arriving in New York and his story ended there. They had no clue what happened to him after that. I decided to see if I could find him living in NYC after his arrival. So I searched for his surname at online newspapers for NYC and just happened to find his name (still not sure if it was him for sure) but not in NYC. In an article about a mine accident in Colorado. They were both sure it WAS him. I had my doubts. But it turns out that they were correct. Checking local probate records mentioned his having lived in a particular county in IL and then in MO (hq of the life insurance company). It also turns out that his death record WAS recorded in the home town in Italy. It was in a "Supplemental" section in the Civil Records and I mistakenly thought that section was for revisions of records in part one. Turns out that section was actually for ADDITIONAL records! Oops! But yep it was him and they now know further information about him and the sad story of how he died only a few short years after his arrival in New York. For the record the Ship Passenger List only stated his name, age, maybe occupation, that he was from Italy (maybe Northern Italian) and that his destination was NYC.
Wow... look at all those records you examined to figure it all out. Way to go!!
My brick wall is my 3rd great grandfather. He was born in England and immigrated before 1825. I can find no info on him as his name was very common ( a gazillion Joseph Coopers who lived in England). I’m at my wits end!
Know your pain. My great grandmother was called Mary Smith in Kent, England and although I found her father via census records, I'm stuck there as finding his birth and parents has proved impossible so far.
You can find no information on him in England or in the US?
I recognize that you do a lot of English research Tinpalte Geek. Thus, I'm guessing you looked at Parish Baptism and Non-Conformist records and found nothing? That's so frustrating.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics No, all I have is a 1880 census where it states he was from Maidenshire England. I can’t find a Maidenshire. I’ve even scoured a map from 1800 looking for the town. I just can’t find that one piece of evidence to pin him down.
Is it possible to have entered the US after 1890 through 1910 from Europe, without having documents that can be found? Where else can we look other than Ellis Island?
Yes! According to the Library of Congress, 70 percent of all immigrants passed through Castle Garden (have you checked their website) and Ellis Island.
Start local before you go to the national databases. Meaning, start in the county naturalization records where your ancestors lived for close as to when and where they arrived. You should then look at the census records to future establish the dates of naturalization and/or immigration.
Then, search Castle Garden or Ellis Islands. Other potential ports of entry were Galveston, Baltimore, Boston, and Philadelphia.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Thank you for replying. Unfortunately they were Jews out of Belarus. No possibility of records there. They never show up in census documents. We believe from family stories that they lived in Baltimore where their daughter also resided. Their children were all present in the US and only hint of when the father may have died is a grandchild named for him which could only happen if he was not alive.
@@sharonjacob4782 A lot of immigrants from Europe also came in through the Port of New Orleans in Louisiana. Sometimes you find where half of the family remained in the New Orleans area but the other half continued to northern states to settle down. Happy hunting!
@@evabrechtel4321 thank you. The family all settled in Boston. They are all accounted for, just the parents. No records whatsoever and yet there are plenty of stories of visiting the Bubba and Zeida. So weird!
oops Baltimore not Boston.