Mentioning that the Scimitar may have been built using Dominion technology, I finally noticed, she does bare more than a passing resemblance to a Dominion Battleship.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Well, Star Trek has crossed over with X-Men and Doctor Who and Batman has Crossed Over with Alien (Multiple Times) and Judge Dredd (Who also did an Alien Cross Over), so why not
a Dominion changling (posing as Dr.bashir) tried to induce a supernova in the bajoran Sun using a bomb made of trilithium, protomatter, and Tekasite. (DS9: By Inferno's Light) said bomb was apparently man-portable, so it apparently can be done, and fairly easily. it probably wouldn't be hard to fit such a bomb into a torpedo casing. (and we know that photon torpedoes can be set up to survive prolonged exposure to a star's stellar mantle, as several such torpedoes are used in TNG: Half a Life as part of an effort to reignite a dying star. note that this predates the development of Metaphasic shields by two whole seasons (2-3 years), suggesting that a metaphasic shielded torpedo could probably penetrate all the way to a star's core, making a Trilithiun and protomatter "nova bomb" even more effective)
Your channel is such a gem. Because you go in depth and provide truely interesting ideas and stories. Thanks man - I said it before - but please never stop :))
Here's my Section 31 theory. It's not a Federation agency, but United Earth. In Enterprise the operative tells Archer "Re-read the Charter, Article 14, Section 31...." . That's not the Federation Charter, but the United Earth Charter. So for all I know the only reason why Section 31 defends the Federation is because it benefits Earth and wouldn't hesitate to betray them if it didn't anymore.
Found the channel a few weeks ago, I'm enjoying your content very much! I also would be interested in you covering Star Wars topics and other stuff! :)
Im honestly not that big of a Star Trek fan, I've watched 4 seasons of TNG and all of DS9 (because I love it and its amazing!) but its thanks to videos like this that I start hitting up the wiki more and more often then I thought I would because the way you've described the topics are fascinating. Im tempted to buy a few books as well, but im unsure where to start.
if your looking for viewing recommendations i would heartily recommend the film 'First Contact' its way better (and this is a controversial opinion) Wrath of Khan.
If you are looking for good books that are a serialized series full of intrigue between the Federation and the Klingons, while an ancient threat begins to return, I recommend the Vanguard books. While I am not really a fan of some of the sensual content, the story is quite excellent.
The romulan ships we see in picard I believe were Tal Shiar ships. Small, Fast and easy to hide from prying eyes. The main romulan fleets are probably guarding whats left of the corp worlds and sitting on the Klingon border waiting for an attack.
Great theory! Tallies up with the possible future from All Good Things where the Klingons had invaded and occupied some of or all Romulan territory. Considering the story cues that ST:Picard took from that, it's more than possible.
I like your videos that cover Trek Lore not shown on screen is a very unique style, Star Wars has hundreds of Channels that cover the same off screen material and everything else. I would recommend sticking with Trek Lore even if you have to use a little head canon to make it work... Great work btw.... The Expanse battle break downs would be interesting.....
At the time of the Prxus incident, the Constitution was no longer considered the cream of the crop in Federation vessels. The Excelsior was, and it stood head and shoulders above the K'Tinga. Even the Miranda had eclipsed the Constitution by that point, being more compact, and more maneuverable, and sporting specialized weapons pods.
Definitely a better story idea than what we've been getting with the bad robot brand. But I basically just thought lazy writing from the writers. Also the troupe that humans and the American way always prevails against aliens and their non democratic flawed societies.
yeah i mean that idea of 'the american way' eventually prevailing was given more weight after the collapse of the USSR and that likely had influence in TNG and DS9. now we are seeing that simply exposing a society to the free market doesn't make it a free society.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I mean. Technically that is not a theory. Though it give too much credit to Section 31, what during times of Sisko were more bunch of LARP'ers then anything. But there are huge implications of hidden war between Machine Race and Iconians over faith of Galaxy. In STO Romulan was destroyed by Iconians. Though STO claim that Sphere Builders is another race, they were clearly indented as Iconians, during production of Enterprise. Though both races are closely related, so it isn't much of issue. Honestly I would not be surprised if what ended Klingon Empire is also that. But not the S31. In fact in Enterprise it is clear that S31 work with Klingons! I have theory that they may actually be related to Klingon Intelligence, what in fact was big thing. And they actually work for the Empire, commonly against Great Houses or even leaders. So I do see them using Federation of tool of they own agenda. There was clearly some funky relation here. It also would explain why Klingons didn't officially contact Earth until Discovery, even if they know about it (surprising humans by speaking in English). But Federation seams to be oblivious about them. Anyway...
Your theory falls apart almost immediately on your assessment of the various navies, particularly around the Praxis period. While it is not canon, Star Fleet registry numbers indicate individual vessels by any logic that can be applied to them. In Operation Retrieve, the planning sheets detail at least 11 Constitution class starships with the Enterprise-A not begin listed among them - it had been ordered by to Earth. There are 2 Excellsior, 4 Miranda, 2 Oberth, 1 Whorfin transport and 8 other ships not identified by type. Much like Wolf-359, this is the fleet in the local sector able to be cobbled together in less than 24 hours. The Federation is 2700 light years across by 1190 in width at this time. If we assume it is on the order of 500 light years thick as the galactic pane suggest this gives the Federation a volume of 1.6 trillion cubic light years. A sector is 10 light years cubed. This means there are 16 billion sectors in the Federation at this time. Many of those will have nothing in them, but some will be busy. If they have a single Star Ship in each one on average that is more than a couple dozen Constitution class starship as you assert. How many there, no one knows, but Star Fleet was not poor and not shirking its duty, member worlds had their own fleet but they also expected patrols by Star Fleet as part of their membership. Star Fleet felt they could blow the KDF out of the stars at this time: SECRETARY (on intercom): Mister President, Starfleet Command is here from San Francisco. FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Send them in. C in C: Mister President. CARTWRIGHT: Mister President. FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Bill, ...Admiral Cartwright, Please, please sit down. CARTWRIGHT: Mister President we cannot allow Federation citizens to be abducted. FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Yes, yes Admiral, but I am constrained to observe Interstellar Law. C in C: Sir, would you please take a look at this. ...Colonel West. WEST: We've prepared Operation Retrieve based on the rising danger of terrorism between the Klingon Empire and Federation. Sir, we can go in, rescue the hostages and get out in twenty-four hours with an acceptable rate of loss in manpower and equipment. We have the technology to... FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Yes, yes. But suppose you precipitate a full-scale war? WEST: Then, quite frankly, Mister President we can clean their chronometers. NANCLUS: Mister President, they are vulnerable. There will never be a better time. CARTWRIGHT: The longer we wait, the less accessible the hostages will be, sir. FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Thank you, Admiral. I'll bear that in mind. Thank you, gentlemen. I believe that's all for now. CARTWRIGHT: Mister President. The Ka'Tinga it must be remember did not survive the attack by V'Ger and the Enterprise did. Ka'Tinga was little more than a new technology D-7. A constitution class was basically a new ship in every way. The old Constitution could take apart a single D-7 on any given day. Thus the KDF deployed them in groups of 3 usually. Even in Yesterday's Enterprise 3 K'Vort class battle cruisers attack what they think is a single Galaxy class star ship. Individually, Klingon ships were not all that. Even in the NX era, Enterprise could beat all but a D-7. Is Section 31 did cause the Praxis explosion and it sounds like something they would do, it was not because they feared for the Federation because Star Fleet was weak. Section 31 has shown as they fear chaos not war. They want to control the flow of events, regardless of what those events are. You might go back to your theory and come at it from there.
The K,vort BOP was a significantly larger ship then its smaller copy. Plus the Enterprise D was hampered by the fact that it had to try to keep the Klingons from attacking the Enterprise C. This limited the ship in how it could fight and maneuver. The Klingons saw this and used it to their advantage, the damaged the piss out of 2 ships and killed a 3rd one to their credit. The enterprise C’s noble sacrifice however upon its return to battle corrected history. Once it returned and rearmed with future weapons and future knowledge of the fight they were able to outright destroy one Warbird, and cripple 2 of them. Once captured with its auto destruct set the C would claim one final Warbird. The surviving crew were likely interrogated by the Tal Shiar and “ disposed of “ once they had no farther information to offer
Section31: "Oi, mate, do you have loicense for that military building empire over there?!" Section31: "Noice star you have there near your home planet, it would be shame if it went supernova all of sudden, wouldn't it?
Looking at this.... I was thinking about the Klingon War that was avoided because of the Enterprise C's sacrifice... Picard had mentioned that after twenty years of war, the Federation was about to be forced to surrender......
yeah... if narendra 3 was the point of divergence there's no way the klingons could have beaten the federation. and not certainly in a two decade attritional war. maybe in a lighting campaign once their economy recovered.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I was thinking that the only path to victory for the Klingons would be if they had help (covert) from the Romulans....We have to remember that the House of Du'Rass was willing to commit all types of treachery
@@venomgeekmedia9886 By the way... Big fan of your work.... Excellent presentations and analysis... And thanks for taking the time to reply.... Best regards!!!
Funny enough in STO the reason behind the Hobus Supernova and the fact that supernovae don't create walls of fire moving at FTL speeds across systems... was the ironicans... which they did because of time travel bs
And now you know why a lot of fans like Star Trek Online a lot more then Picard, for it does answer those questions. Though you may be disappointed as the Kerchan was apparently never put in service in that timeline. This makes sense when you consider they did not need to design a new heavy warship when they could reverse engineer the Scimitar warship to become the Rumaluan new flagship. After all, why spend resources when you can weep the technology on your doorstep.
Your position seems reasonable. I was always under the impression (ignoring Star Trek: Into Darkness and STD) that Section 31's loyalty was first to the survival to the Federation and second to its own secrecy as that aids in it first loyalty. They don't have ships, laboratories, or facilities as they don't need them since the Federation has them in abundance that Section 31 can use so long as they don't leave a paper trail. As for the Praxis incident, I always assumed that Section 31 was behind it as well as the plot to start a war with the Klingons soon after. It seems clear that the Starfleet brass believed they could win, even if it would be a struggle at first, and Chancellor Azetbur's military councilors seemed to agree although they were willing to die on their feet rather than live on their knees. This victory would be even more assured with Romulan aid. Thus with the Klingon Empire gone, it territories would be divided between the victors and the Federation you have one less rival to worry about. While this may have been the preferred outcome for Section 31, or some in its ranks, a peace with the Klingons for the foreseeable future might have been seen as enough, especially if the operatives in charge were weary of the compromises they had to make. As for the Klingons and Romulans, I never believed that they were a match for the Federation in a straight fight alone. They needed to be in an alliance to challenge the Federation. Why you ask? Because of the way they conduct their affairs. The Federation grows primarily through diplomacy, preserving the new members' resources and infrastructure intact and ensuring that the population is motivated by equal participation in all benefits. They Klingons, and perhaps by lesser extent the Romulans, usually conquer new territory, destroying resources and crippling infrastructure, having to spend years to decades getting its new acquisitions functional again. Even when they are functional, they may never be as productive as the population is not as motivated. So the Federation has a smaller dedicated military, but far greater industrial capacity than the Klingons or Romulans. A good, albeit superficial, example is the United States and Japan in WW2. Any war the Klingons and/or Romulans fight with the Federation must be short, a year or two at the most, so as the Federation cannot mobilize its great resources in time. You could point out that in "Yesterday's Enterprise" the Klingons were winning a protracted war with the Federation. While that is correct, the information on that war is vague at best and was written before the idea of Section 31. Most likely, the Romulans were participating actively along side the Klingons, or if not then were helping in other ways, like providing resources, intelligence, and suppressing Section 31's counters strikes. One must also remember that Starfleet was effectively demilitarized at that time and hadn't had their brushes with the Cardassians, the Talarians, and probably the Tzenkethi to provide experience. If the Romulans were not actively fight the Federation, then the Treaty of Algeron would still be in place, preventing Starfleet from using cloaking devices, giving the Klingons a major tactical advantage to choose when and were battles were fought.
that is an interesting perspective and while i agree regarding infrastructure. i maintain that until the federation launched excelsior the klingons had the better ships. i have a hard time believing the 'yesterdays enterprise' timeline. in my series the klingons between 2290 and 2363 are at the lowest they've ever been and are basically a Romulan Punching bag Militarily and Diplomatically.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I agree with your point of view. Since Klingons care little for anything save war, they dedicate their ships to that endeavor, making them at least a little superior to Federation counterparts in regards to pure tactical utility. They probably also had more ships on war standby, though not too many more, especially during Star Trek 6, as I have stated that the Starfleet Brass seemed to believe they could handle the Klingons in the immediate future. I firmly stand on the idea that the Federation could potentially support many times more ships than any of their local rivals, but choose not to in effort to provide its citizens with the utopia-like lifestyle and as to not provoke their neighbors. When it comes to "Yesterday's Enterprise" I also find it hard to believe. The only reasonable answer I can think of is that the Federation didn't take the Klingons seriously at first (supported if the early campaigns by the Klingons were dismal failures) much like the border war with the Cardassians. After some retooling of their fleet and reforming of command and tactics, the Klingons renewed their war with the Federation with Romulan aid and blitzed across the Federation using cloaking devices, crippling important infrastructure needed for a protracted war. Then I can see how that future could come about, though Romulan involvement is never mentioned. It could be that the various raids the Romulans executed against the Klingons were an attempt to sway them into another alliance against the Federation since the Romulans wouldn't have been powerful enough alone.
@@jonathansimms3661 That is a Star Trek: Enterprise recon, one of which I am not too fond. When they appear in DS9, they talk about the Federation at large, not Earth alone. There are a lot of recons from Star Trek: Enterprise that I have grown to dislike over the years, such as Starfleet before the Federation and the whole "we are not a military" nonsense (that should have stayed in the era of TNG). Honestly, while there was a lot of prequel stuff they did right in that show, I hold to the position that they did a lot wrong trying to stay within the recognizable Star Trek aesthetic as to not scare away fans. It works initially, but doesn't age well.
@Lane Bowles @Venom Geek Media 98 You know, I always believed a large reason that the Federation was losing the war in Yesterday's Enterprise was more along the lines of having divided attention and fighting too many wars at once. Many people seem to forget that at the time, Starfleet was fighting numerous conflicts in the Alpha Quadrant against at least a dozen powers. Two of which were major ones in the Cardassian Union and the Tzenkethi, with the Tzenkethi posing a larger threat than the Cardassians. I think, while its not stated in cannon, the reason they refer to the 30 to 40-year gap as the Border Wars was not so much the war with the Cardassian Union, but all the conflicts the Federation was fighting at the time. Sort of how the US combine all the conflicts with the Native American tribes into the Indian Wars. It was just associated to the Cardassians the most for they fought the longest of all the powers and were the last to give up. It kind of explains why the Cardassian's were willing to negotiate in the 2360s for they were alone with the Federation's undivided attention, while Starfleet had bigger threats to concern itself with the Romulans and the Borg, so they wanted the war to end one way or another. It also probably hurt that unlike the Dominion War, Starfleet was not in the process of upgrading and replacing their older ships for they were too needed at the time. Starfleet had to keep ships that should have been retired decades earlier in service for they had too much territory to patrol, with no new ship designs that could replace the older ones at the time, and even if they did, Starfleet shipyards could not keep up with the demand. Its why older ship with designs that reached the end of how far it can be upgraded, like the Constitution, Constellation, and Miranda, was still in service by the 2370s for they were built in mass in the early years and Starfleet could not afford to retire them without leave vast amount of territory unprotected. It also probably hurt the Romulans probably were testing their D'derix on Starfleet by using hit and run tactics to cripple Starfleet response. And maybe even allies with the Klingons if a theory that without the Enterprise-C destroying 1 or 2 Romulan ships, there be no evidence of their involvement and may even plant evidence Starfleet attacked the colony. This is proven by the fact Picard from Yesterday's Enterprise did not know about the Romulan attack while the Prime Picard did.
Actually... It will be interesting to find out if someone starts paying back the Federation for section 31 activities.... Wouldn't it be interesting if that is the definition of "The Great Burn" that has been mentioned in Discovery
I mean Admiral Ross was part of Section 31 and he sure as stuffing hasn't gone anywhere and it is the looming elephant in the room of hey Starfleet has time travel and it has badmirals and desperate situations in the dominion war. Now okay there's the time fleet but we know that they accept a certain amount of meddling in time that happens before they are founded and we know they have bad people among their ranks too.
At the end of the video, I think Section 31 suffers from being written backwards. We went from the end of trek with DS9, then they wrote them into Enterprise, and then the mess of openly wearing black badges on DSC, so that it honestly feels like Section 31 grows in power if you look backwards. Instead of ultra dreadnaughts built by augments, they started with being able to insert agents as any officer at any rank, which is pretty scary to begin with. Thank you though, for making me think.
yeah creating clandestine organisations like that does have the unfortunate risk of Ret-Conning previously unconnected people and events. the James bond film 'Spectre' did that trying to connect different standalone (and mostly better) villains.
I think Section 31 is controlled at it's highest levels by ether Terrans, or Augments. If the latter they are perhaps more dangerous than even the Borg.
Well, if you think you can handle it, great. Only question would be which era of SW? Old Republic, Clone War, or maybe old Legends? Whatever floats your boat........(Do something with Revan. Hint Hint). I'd like to approach this from a different angle. Instead of whether Section 31 did it, I would ask that, on a meta level, would it be good if they actually did it? One of the common criticism of some beta canon material is that Section 31 is responsible for everything. It was a lot like in the early Star Wars EU books where is pretty much always the Empire's fault. My old English teacher liked to classify all stories in a spectrum between Greek Tragedy (story events caused by gods or some other higher power) and Shakespeare (story being driven entirely by mere mortals and their actions). Star Trek has always fallen more towards the Shakespeare side of the spectrum. Would this theory, in a way, push it towards the Greek Tragedy side of the spectrum? I mean if Section 31 is capable of all of this and consistently get away with it, would they become some unmoved mover driving things along with their ghostly hand of god?
i'll probably do the clone wars according to the 'Official Imperial History'. most certainly it does push it towards greek tragedy. Gene Roddenberry being a liberal humanist definitely believed in free will. equally star trek is mean't to be reflective of human experiences and often (right now for example) big events take place which people are powerless to change, sometimes they are just random, other times... but then it is about how people choose to respond to those giant events.
You should watch star trek 6 were they were discussing rescuing Kirk and the federation president said what if it causes a war and the admiral clearly stated we could clean there clock referring to the klingons also watch the original series the enterprise always easily destroys the d7 in every battle encounter so why are you talking about the federation not being able to fight the klingons?
so the Admiral who says that is agitating for war and probably has a very optimistic view of how things would go. the reality would be quite different. i've gone through most of season 1 of TOS what are the most important Klingon episodes in your view?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ok I can see where your mind is facts are not important. Your opinion is. I heard you mention lore reloaded I used to subscribe to his channel until he started ignoring facts and started thinking his opinion was more important than conon.
this was made back when i had some hope for the show... honestly out of everything its probably the worst DISCO season 1 despite its many issues was a least never boring... unlike picard.
Mentioning that the Scimitar may have been built using Dominion technology, I finally noticed, she does bare more than a passing resemblance to a Dominion Battleship.
YEP! If Batman had a DOMINION BATTLESHIP!
batman star trek crossover....?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Well, Star Trek has crossed over with X-Men and Doctor Who and Batman has Crossed Over with Alien (Multiple Times) and Judge Dredd (Who also did an Alien Cross Over), so why not
@@venomgeekmedia9886 COUGH DISCOVERY COUGH
a Dominion changling (posing as Dr.bashir) tried to induce a supernova in the bajoran Sun using a bomb made of trilithium, protomatter, and Tekasite. (DS9: By Inferno's Light) said bomb was apparently man-portable, so it apparently can be done, and fairly easily. it probably wouldn't be hard to fit such a bomb into a torpedo casing. (and we know that photon torpedoes can be set up to survive prolonged exposure to a star's stellar mantle, as several such torpedoes are used in TNG: Half a Life as part of an effort to reignite a dying star. note that this predates the development of Metaphasic shields by two whole seasons (2-3 years), suggesting that a metaphasic shielded torpedo could probably penetrate all the way to a star's core, making a Trilithiun and protomatter "nova bomb" even more effective)
Your channel is such a gem. Because you go in depth and provide truely interesting ideas and stories. Thanks man - I said it before - but please never stop :))
Here's my Section 31 theory. It's not a Federation agency, but United Earth. In Enterprise the operative tells Archer "Re-read the Charter, Article 14, Section 31...." . That's not the Federation Charter, but the United Earth Charter. So for all I know the only reason why Section 31 defends the Federation is because it benefits Earth and wouldn't hesitate to betray them if it didn't anymore.
Found the channel a few weeks ago, I'm enjoying your content very much! I also would be interested in you covering Star Wars topics and other stuff! :)
Almanac it’s a great channel!
you may just get your wish...
Dune would be the best in my opinion. I don't think anything can top Dune, especially the first 6 books.
Im honestly not that big of a Star Trek fan, I've watched 4 seasons of TNG and all of DS9 (because I love it and its amazing!) but its thanks to videos like this that I start hitting up the wiki more and more often then I thought I would because the way you've described the topics are fascinating.
Im tempted to buy a few books as well, but im unsure where to start.
if your looking for viewing recommendations i would heartily recommend the film 'First Contact' its way better (and this is a controversial opinion) Wrath of Khan.
If you are looking for good books that are a serialized series full of intrigue between the Federation and the Klingons, while an ancient threat begins to return, I recommend the Vanguard books. While I am not really a fan of some of the sensual content, the story is quite excellent.
DS9 is just so story rich and full of great characters that you cannot help but love it...my fav.
The romulan ships we see in picard I believe were Tal Shiar ships. Small, Fast and easy to hide from prying eyes. The main romulan fleets are probably guarding whats left of the corp worlds and sitting on the Klingon border waiting for an attack.
a good point and that does make more sense. it's not that i dislike those picard ships but they aren't WARBIRDS!
Great theory! Tallies up with the possible future from All Good Things where the Klingons had invaded and occupied some of or all Romulan territory. Considering the story cues that ST:Picard took from that, it's more than possible.
Your theorising is excellent young man. Please keep it up.
"The Burn" renders this theory obsolete.
I like your videos that cover Trek Lore not shown on screen is a very unique style, Star Wars has hundreds of Channels that cover the same off screen material and everything else. I would recommend sticking with Trek Lore even if you have to use a little head canon to make it work... Great work btw.... The Expanse battle break downs would be interesting.....
that i would be very tempted to do although i'll probably have to brush up on the wiki (i haven't read the books)
At the time of the Prxus incident, the Constitution was no longer considered the cream of the crop in Federation vessels. The Excelsior was, and it stood head and shoulders above the K'Tinga. Even the Miranda had eclipsed the Constitution by that point, being more compact, and more maneuverable, and sporting specialized weapons pods.
Love the content, don't care for the affectation.
Makes alot of sense 👍
Definitely a better story idea than what we've been getting with the bad robot brand.
But I basically just thought lazy writing from the writers. Also the troupe that humans and the American way always prevails against aliens and their non democratic flawed societies.
yeah i mean that idea of 'the american way' eventually prevailing was given more weight after the collapse of the USSR and that likely had influence in TNG and DS9. now we are seeing that simply exposing a society to the free market doesn't make it a free society.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I mean. Technically that is not a theory. Though it give too much credit to Section 31, what during times of Sisko were more bunch of LARP'ers then anything. But there are huge implications of hidden war between Machine Race and Iconians over faith of Galaxy. In STO Romulan was destroyed by Iconians. Though STO claim that Sphere Builders is another race, they were clearly indented as Iconians, during production of Enterprise. Though both races are closely related, so it isn't much of issue. Honestly I would not be surprised if what ended Klingon Empire is also that. But not the S31. In fact in Enterprise it is clear that S31 work with Klingons! I have theory that they may actually be related to Klingon Intelligence, what in fact was big thing. And they actually work for the Empire, commonly against Great Houses or even leaders. So I do see them using Federation of tool of they own agenda. There was clearly some funky relation here. It also would explain why Klingons didn't officially contact Earth until Discovery, even if they know about it (surprising humans by speaking in English). But Federation seams to be oblivious about them. Anyway...
Your theory falls apart almost immediately on your assessment of the various navies, particularly around the Praxis period. While it is not canon, Star Fleet registry numbers indicate individual vessels by any logic that can be applied to them. In Operation Retrieve, the planning sheets detail at least 11 Constitution class starships with the Enterprise-A not begin listed among them - it had been ordered by to Earth. There are 2 Excellsior, 4 Miranda, 2 Oberth, 1 Whorfin transport and 8 other ships not identified by type. Much like Wolf-359, this is the fleet in the local sector able to be cobbled together in less than 24 hours. The Federation is 2700 light years across by 1190 in width at this time. If we assume it is on the order of 500 light years thick as the galactic pane suggest this gives the Federation a volume of 1.6 trillion cubic light years. A sector is 10 light years cubed. This means there are 16 billion sectors in the Federation at this time. Many of those will have nothing in them, but some will be busy. If they have a single Star Ship in each one on average that is more than a couple dozen Constitution class starship as you assert. How many there, no one knows, but Star Fleet was not poor and not shirking its duty, member worlds had their own fleet but they also expected patrols by Star Fleet as part of their membership.
Star Fleet felt they could blow the KDF out of the stars at this time:
SECRETARY (on intercom): Mister President, Starfleet Command is here from San Francisco.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Send them in.
C in C: Mister President.
CARTWRIGHT: Mister President.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Bill, ...Admiral Cartwright, Please, please sit down.
CARTWRIGHT: Mister President we cannot allow Federation citizens to be abducted.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Yes, yes Admiral, but I am constrained to observe Interstellar Law.
C in C: Sir, would you please take a look at this. ...Colonel West.
WEST: We've prepared Operation Retrieve based on the rising danger of terrorism between the Klingon Empire and Federation. Sir, we can go in, rescue the hostages and get out in twenty-four hours with an acceptable rate of loss in manpower and equipment. We have the technology to...
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Yes, yes. But suppose you precipitate a full-scale war?
WEST: Then, quite frankly, Mister President we can clean their chronometers.
NANCLUS: Mister President, they are vulnerable. There will never be a better time.
CARTWRIGHT: The longer we wait, the less accessible the hostages will be, sir.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Thank you, Admiral. I'll bear that in mind. Thank you, gentlemen. I believe that's all for now.
CARTWRIGHT: Mister President.
The Ka'Tinga it must be remember did not survive the attack by V'Ger and the Enterprise did. Ka'Tinga was little more than a new technology D-7. A constitution class was basically a new ship in every way. The old Constitution could take apart a single D-7 on any given day. Thus the KDF deployed them in groups of 3 usually.
Even in Yesterday's Enterprise 3 K'Vort class battle cruisers attack what they think is a single Galaxy class star ship. Individually, Klingon ships were not all that. Even in the NX era, Enterprise could beat all but a D-7.
Is Section 31 did cause the Praxis explosion and it sounds like something they would do, it was not because they feared for the Federation because Star Fleet was weak. Section 31 has shown as they fear chaos not war. They want to control the flow of events, regardless of what those events are. You might go back to your theory and come at it from there.
The K,vort BOP was a significantly larger ship then its smaller copy. Plus the Enterprise D was hampered by the fact that it had to try to keep the Klingons from attacking the Enterprise C. This limited the ship in how it could fight and maneuver. The Klingons saw this and used it to their advantage, the damaged the piss out of 2 ships and killed a 3rd one to their credit. The enterprise C’s noble sacrifice however upon its return to battle corrected history. Once it returned and rearmed with future weapons and future knowledge of the fight they were able to outright destroy one Warbird, and cripple 2 of them. Once captured with its auto destruct set the C would claim one final Warbird. The surviving crew were likely interrogated by the Tal Shiar and “ disposed of “ once they had no farther information to offer
Section31: "Oi, mate, do you have loicense for that military building empire over there?!"
Section31: "Noice star you have there near your home planet, it would be shame if it went supernova all of sudden, wouldn't it?
In B4 Star Trek VI, the Gorkon assassination, USS Pegasus phased cloak debacle, etc, etc...
Looking at this.... I was thinking about the Klingon War that was avoided because of the Enterprise C's sacrifice... Picard had mentioned that after twenty years of war, the Federation was about to be forced to surrender......
yeah... if narendra 3 was the point of divergence there's no way the klingons could have beaten the federation. and not certainly in a two decade attritional war. maybe in a lighting campaign once their economy recovered.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I was thinking that the only path to victory for the Klingons would be if they had help (covert) from the Romulans....We have to remember that the House of Du'Rass was willing to commit all types of treachery
@@reelsoffortuneslotsplay4267 yeah and if that were the case its a little more plausible.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 By the way... Big fan of your work.... Excellent presentations and analysis... And thanks for taking the time to reply.... Best regards!!!
Starfleet wasnt sandwiched so much as they formed one side of a trio of enemies with romulan and klingon space.
Funny enough in STO the reason behind the Hobus Supernova and the fact that supernovae don't create walls of fire moving at FTL speeds across systems... was the ironicans... which they did because of time travel bs
"Where are the Kertchans" maybe I'm wrong, but I've never seen a canon reference to these ships existing.
alas no but we can dream....
While Rodenberry would be spinning in his grave, you make some interesting points.
Pretty funny Trek took off after they put Roddenberry in a room
And now you know why a lot of fans like Star Trek Online a lot more then Picard, for it does answer those questions.
Though you may be disappointed as the Kerchan was apparently never put in service in that timeline. This makes sense when you consider they did not need to design a new heavy warship when they could reverse engineer the Scimitar warship to become the Rumaluan new flagship. After all, why spend resources when you can weep the technology on your doorstep.
Your position seems reasonable.
I was always under the impression (ignoring Star Trek: Into Darkness and STD) that Section 31's loyalty was first to the survival to the Federation and second to its own secrecy as that aids in it first loyalty. They don't have ships, laboratories, or facilities as they don't need them since the Federation has them in abundance that Section 31 can use so long as they don't leave a paper trail. As for the Praxis incident, I always assumed that Section 31 was behind it as well as the plot to start a war with the Klingons soon after. It seems clear that the Starfleet brass believed they could win, even if it would be a struggle at first, and Chancellor Azetbur's military councilors seemed to agree although they were willing to die on their feet rather than live on their knees. This victory would be even more assured with Romulan aid. Thus with the Klingon Empire gone, it territories would be divided between the victors and the Federation you have one less rival to worry about. While this may have been the preferred outcome for Section 31, or some in its ranks, a peace with the Klingons for the foreseeable future might have been seen as enough, especially if the operatives in charge were weary of the compromises they had to make.
As for the Klingons and Romulans, I never believed that they were a match for the Federation in a straight fight alone. They needed to be in an alliance to challenge the Federation. Why you ask? Because of the way they conduct their affairs. The Federation grows primarily through diplomacy, preserving the new members' resources and infrastructure intact and ensuring that the population is motivated by equal participation in all benefits. They Klingons, and perhaps by lesser extent the Romulans, usually conquer new territory, destroying resources and crippling infrastructure, having to spend years to decades getting its new acquisitions functional again. Even when they are functional, they may never be as productive as the population is not as motivated. So the Federation has a smaller dedicated military, but far greater industrial capacity than the Klingons or Romulans. A good, albeit superficial, example is the United States and Japan in WW2.
Any war the Klingons and/or Romulans fight with the Federation must be short, a year or two at the most, so as the Federation cannot mobilize its great resources in time. You could point out that in "Yesterday's Enterprise" the Klingons were winning a protracted war with the Federation. While that is correct, the information on that war is vague at best and was written before the idea of Section 31. Most likely, the Romulans were participating actively along side the Klingons, or if not then were helping in other ways, like providing resources, intelligence, and suppressing Section 31's counters strikes. One must also remember that Starfleet was effectively demilitarized at that time and hadn't had their brushes with the Cardassians, the Talarians, and probably the Tzenkethi to provide experience. If the Romulans were not actively fight the Federation, then the Treaty of Algeron would still be in place, preventing Starfleet from using cloaking devices, giving the Klingons a major tactical advantage to choose when and were battles were fought.
that is an interesting perspective and while i agree regarding infrastructure. i maintain that until the federation launched excelsior the klingons had the better ships. i have a hard time believing the 'yesterdays enterprise' timeline. in my series the klingons between 2290 and 2363 are at the lowest they've ever been and are basically a Romulan Punching bag Militarily and Diplomatically.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I agree with your point of view. Since Klingons care little for anything save war, they dedicate their ships to that endeavor, making them at least a little superior to Federation counterparts in regards to pure tactical utility. They probably also had more ships on war standby, though not too many more, especially during Star Trek 6, as I have stated that the Starfleet Brass seemed to believe they could handle the Klingons in the immediate future. I firmly stand on the idea that the Federation could potentially support many times more ships than any of their local rivals, but choose not to in effort to provide its citizens with the utopia-like lifestyle and as to not provoke their neighbors.
When it comes to "Yesterday's Enterprise" I also find it hard to believe. The only reasonable answer I can think of is that the Federation didn't take the Klingons seriously at first (supported if the early campaigns by the Klingons were dismal failures) much like the border war with the Cardassians. After some retooling of their fleet and reforming of command and tactics, the Klingons renewed their war with the Federation with Romulan aid and blitzed across the Federation using cloaking devices, crippling important infrastructure needed for a protracted war. Then I can see how that future could come about, though Romulan involvement is never mentioned. It could be that the various raids the Romulans executed against the Klingons were an attempt to sway them into another alliance against the Federation since the Romulans wouldn't have been powerful enough alone.
Section 31 first priority was the security of Earth... not the federation!
@@jonathansimms3661 That is a Star Trek: Enterprise recon, one of which I am not too fond. When they appear in DS9, they talk about the Federation at large, not Earth alone.
There are a lot of recons from Star Trek: Enterprise that I have grown to dislike over the years, such as Starfleet before the Federation and the whole "we are not a military" nonsense (that should have stayed in the era of TNG). Honestly, while there was a lot of prequel stuff they did right in that show, I hold to the position that they did a lot wrong trying to stay within the recognizable Star Trek aesthetic as to not scare away fans. It works initially, but doesn't age well.
@Lane Bowles @Venom Geek Media 98
You know, I always believed a large reason that the Federation was losing the war in Yesterday's Enterprise was more along the lines of having divided attention and fighting too many wars at once. Many people seem to forget that at the time, Starfleet was fighting numerous conflicts in the Alpha Quadrant against at least a dozen powers. Two of which were major ones in the Cardassian Union and the Tzenkethi, with the Tzenkethi posing a larger threat than the Cardassians. I think, while its not stated in cannon, the reason they refer to the 30 to 40-year gap as the Border Wars was not so much the war with the Cardassian Union, but all the conflicts the Federation was fighting at the time. Sort of how the US combine all the conflicts with the Native American tribes into the Indian Wars. It was just associated to the Cardassians the most for they fought the longest of all the powers and were the last to give up. It kind of explains why the Cardassian's were willing to negotiate in the 2360s for they were alone with the Federation's undivided attention, while Starfleet had bigger threats to concern itself with the Romulans and the Borg, so they wanted the war to end one way or another.
It also probably hurt that unlike the Dominion War, Starfleet was not in the process of upgrading and replacing their older ships for they were too needed at the time. Starfleet had to keep ships that should have been retired decades earlier in service for they had too much territory to patrol, with no new ship designs that could replace the older ones at the time, and even if they did, Starfleet shipyards could not keep up with the demand. Its why older ship with designs that reached the end of how far it can be upgraded, like the Constitution, Constellation, and Miranda, was still in service by the 2370s for they were built in mass in the early years and Starfleet could not afford to retire them without leave vast amount of territory unprotected.
It also probably hurt the Romulans probably were testing their D'derix on Starfleet by using hit and run tactics to cripple Starfleet response. And maybe even allies with the Klingons if a theory that without the Enterprise-C destroying 1 or 2 Romulan ships, there be no evidence of their involvement and may even plant evidence Starfleet attacked the colony. This is proven by the fact Picard from Yesterday's Enterprise did not know about the Romulan attack while the Prime Picard did.
Hash tag Federation body count lol.
The Klingon ship in The Undiscovered Country fired whilst cloaked.
Actually... It will be interesting to find out if someone starts paying back the Federation for section 31 activities.... Wouldn't it be interesting if that is the definition of "The Great Burn" that has been mentioned in Discovery
I mean Admiral Ross was part of Section 31 and he sure as stuffing hasn't gone anywhere and it is the looming elephant in the room of hey Starfleet has time travel and it has badmirals and desperate situations in the dominion war. Now okay there's the time fleet but we know that they accept a certain amount of meddling in time that happens before they are founded and we know they have bad people among their ranks too.
The scimitar not only cracked firing while cloaked. They also had shields active while cloaked. Basically the writers of nemesis went too far.
At the end of the video, I think Section 31 suffers from being written backwards. We went from the end of trek with DS9, then they wrote them into Enterprise, and then the mess of openly wearing black badges on DSC, so that it honestly feels like Section 31 grows in power if you look backwards. Instead of ultra dreadnaughts built by augments, they started with being able to insert agents as any officer at any rank, which is pretty scary to begin with. Thank you though, for making me think.
yeah creating clandestine organisations like that does have the unfortunate risk of Ret-Conning previously unconnected people and events. the James bond film 'Spectre' did that trying to connect different standalone (and mostly better) villains.
Section31, next lvl of diplomacy by other means.
The Burn can be considered the Federation's praxis
it could, if only...(Spoilers)
They completely fix the burn at the end of season 3
I think Section 31 is controlled at it's highest levels by ether Terrans, or Augments. If the latter they are perhaps more dangerous than even the Borg.
First 🖖,I would be interested in some Star Wars videos.
Well, if you think you can handle it, great. Only question would be which era of SW? Old Republic, Clone War, or maybe old Legends? Whatever floats your boat........(Do something with Revan. Hint Hint).
I'd like to approach this from a different angle. Instead of whether Section 31 did it, I would ask that, on a meta level, would it be good if they actually did it? One of the common criticism of some beta canon material is that Section 31 is responsible for everything. It was a lot like in the early Star Wars EU books where is pretty much always the Empire's fault. My old English teacher liked to classify all stories in a spectrum between Greek Tragedy (story events caused by gods or some other higher power) and Shakespeare (story being driven entirely by mere mortals and their actions). Star Trek has always fallen more towards the Shakespeare side of the spectrum. Would this theory, in a way, push it towards the Greek Tragedy side of the spectrum? I mean if Section 31 is capable of all of this and consistently get away with it, would they become some unmoved mover driving things along with their ghostly hand of god?
i'll probably do the clone wars according to the 'Official Imperial History'. most certainly it does push it towards greek tragedy. Gene Roddenberry being a liberal humanist definitely believed in free will. equally star trek is mean't to be reflective of human experiences and often (right now for example) big events take place which people are powerless to change, sometimes they are just random, other times... but then it is about how people choose to respond to those giant events.
sela has hold of the romulan fleet!!, maybe
now that would be quite the reunion...
Tal'shir with Iconians destroyed Romie 🌞.
There's a pattern there lol
I just think section 31 makes sense, but in the hands of bad writers, will be seriously abused.
You should watch star trek 6 were they were discussing rescuing Kirk and the federation president said what if it causes a war and the admiral clearly stated we could clean there clock referring to the klingons also watch the original series the enterprise always easily destroys the d7 in every battle encounter so why are you talking about the federation not being able to fight the klingons?
so the Admiral who says that is agitating for war and probably has a very optimistic view of how things would go. the reality would be quite different. i've gone through most of season 1 of TOS what are the most important Klingon episodes in your view?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ok I can see where your mind is facts are not important. Your opinion is. I heard you mention lore reloaded I used to subscribe to his channel until he started ignoring facts and started thinking his opinion was more important than conon.
CIA, NSA, NRO, MILITARY INTELLIGENCE Are you saying that these people can effect world happenings? No......
🤨🧐🤔
The title needs some work, changed history, not so much, shaped it, yes most deffinetly.
Change implies time travel.
Why even include Picard lore my guy? It's garbage writing and it craps all over old trek.
this was made back when i had some hope for the show...
honestly out of everything its probably the worst
DISCO season 1 despite its many issues was a least never boring... unlike picard.