Klingon's Have No Honor!
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
- In today's discussion video i look at the issue of the supposed Klingon Honor code and try to reconcile it with their more dishonorable actions. by using examples in history. let me know your thoughts in the comments
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Put another way, what Klingons regard as "honour" is _not_ the same thing as that which humans call "honour". In any case, even human honour is a very variable thing. Look at the Japanese culture, for example, where honour was held in very high regard - then look at how their forces behaved towards prisoners. But of course, from _their_ perspective, those prisoners had acted incredibly dishnourably, surrendering rather than dying fighting, so they were regarded as not being worthy of consideration - they were no longer even thought of as being human beings. So Klingons have their own honour codes - not necessarily the same as ours.
Bullshit
From the get go the Japanese considered all non Japanese as inferior and not worthy of any consideration at all, where's the honor in butchering CIVILIAN men, women & children?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimizuka
"Mow down everyone universally, without discriminating between young and old, men and women, clergy and the laity-high ranking soldiers on the battlefield, that goes without saying, but also the hill folk, down to the poorest and meanest-and send the heads to Japan"
-Toyotomi Hideyoshi
"In war, nothing is more honorable than victory". That is how they tried to excuse Klingon dishonor in DS9.
Klingon honour is like medieval chivalry. It's an unrealistic ideal that really isn't practical.
Therefore Klingons often fall short of that ideal but that isn't the point. It's about having a greater ideal to live up to
that's true and we equally see many of our 'evolved' human characters live up to their own standards Picard being the prime example.
David Scoltock Chivalry isn't that about helping girls from attackers and holding a door open and such that is very VERY realistic so ?.
King Zilla chivalry was a complex set of ethical codes of behaviour that applied to both social interactions and warfare. The code of chivalry was Extensive and complex and all but impossible to follow and enforce but provided an ideal to aim for
Klingon honor is like Viking honor.
#1: They give no quarter in battle and they expect none for themselves.
#2: They believe that If you can not defend lands, you no longer deserve them.
#3: They expect rules #1 and #2 are mutual to all other species.
#4: Settle all disputes with a knife fight because Might=Right
#5: If you cannot settle things with a knife fight, stab them in the back or better yet, poison them while no one it looking
You forgetting a fear point. Acting on fear is dishonorable.
"Show me your honor! My honor demands it!"
Excellent video.
To me honor can be taken as a spectrum stretching from reputation on one side and integrity on the other. Reputation is a purely external form of honor (i.e. what others think of you) and integrity is a purely internal form of honor (i.e. what you think of yourself). Klingons usually lean to the reputation side of honor while the Federation and Worf lean to the integrity side. This, I believe, explains most of the disconnect between Klingon honor and what the viewer is expected to perceive as honor. (Although in the end it is just the various Star Trek series writers' inability to maintain continuity due to the show-runners' changing ideas and the need to make every story as compelling as possible in of itself that leads to the Klingons foggy system of honor, among other things like starship speeds and distances traveled.)
thats an interesting observation certainly Worfs view is more spiritual whereas most klingons are concerned with Reputation, that's why Gowrons ultimatum in 'way of the warrior' doesn't sway worf because for him honor is not material it can never be given or taken by someone else.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Agreed
Them's fighting words!!!! Of course, every Klingon word is a fighting word.
🤣
Your comments were exactly something Jadzia Dax pointed out in an episode during season 6.
I think it was Ezri Dax, pointing it out to Worf during season 7, right before Worf calls out Gowron for being a massive tool and throwing away lives for the sake of political dick measuring
I agree with you: By human standard definitions, the Klingons are wholly dishonourable, but in Klingon standards: honour is dictated by the victor.
Great video! This detail about the Klingons has always annoyed me and I also naturally equated some of my perceived hypocrisy of their “honor” to differing concepts of honor in WWII.
As you mentioned, honor in Western Civilization was largely modeled after Chivalry, which was instituted by the Pope. That is personally relevant to my perception of honor because my extended family fought the Japanese in WWII and two were captured. One of them was executed while restrained, a full day after surrendering, on a whim. The other was tortured, but not for information, but cruelty alone. His captors specifically stated their belief that their prisoners were dishonorable for not killing themselves before capture-but in the case of my relatives, they were not only following direct orders to surrender but were also Catholics, and truly regarded suicide to be the most egregious violation of what they held most dear. As a child hearing this story, it was bizarre to me that the Japanese couldn’t respect the honor of others while maintaining such an emphasis on their own concept of it. Perhaps more bizarre, was the contrast of another relative’s experience after being captured by the Germans, who he described as treating him very humanely. To a child trying to wrap my head around this, it was difficult to reconcile how the nation that perpetrated the holocaust could also afford dignity to its enemies even while losing the war, yet the Japanese couldn’t seem to respect the sacred beliefs of their prisoners.
As it applies to Star Trek, I’ve always found Klingon honor to be so amorphous and inconsistent that it essentially can’t be considered honor by virtue of its flexibility. Virtually all definitions of honor across all cultures agree that honor (however they define it) is rigid enough to be recognized by all of those who subscribe to it. The Klingons are wildly inconsistent, in my opinion. In either DS9 or TNG (can’t remember) there’s a moment when hostile Klingons had the opportunity to seize upon some civilian children, which would have given them their only reasonable chance for gaining the upper hand. But they decline, citing how honor excludes the notion of exploiting civilians in this way. Okay, I thought, civilians are clearly a line within their code of honor. But then in DS9 when the Klingons go to war with the Federation, there’s a whole episode dedicated to the atrocious violence the Klingons have directed at the civilians of a planet they were besieging. Civilians weren’t simply caught in the crossfire, but deliberately exploited cruelly as a vulnerable target! I gave up on believing that any Klingons on any of the shows were honorable accept Worf and maybe Martok. I’d like to point out, however, that Worf was clearly the most honorable Klingon...and that seemed to be the product of exploring Klingon honor within the framework of human honor established by his awesome Russian parents.
As a side note, I agree that the British Empire is probably the best example I can think of regarding their embrace of Honorable Defeat. In American history, the British seemed far more capable of respecting the value of Native American tribes and displaying a willingness to treat them as fundamentally equal in many situations that Americans refused. The British allied with Tecumseh to affect the only surrender of an American city to a foreign power in our history (going by my own memory, don’t crucify me if I’m wrong). From the perspective of someone who enjoys history, I’ve always admired this attitude by the British, along with many other things unique to that peculiar island of historical frenemies.
thank you for sharing your families Historic accounts. i agree we rightly look at what the Nazis did as evil and Abhorrent but we seem to treat it as an isolated event in history. in reality it fits into a long historical continuity of such crimes being perpetrated such as what the Ottomans did to the Armenians. what the Soviets did. in that way it shouldn't be a surprise that Japan behaved similarly.
And yet its hardly mentioned perhaps because its so difficult to understand from a western mindset.
but during ww2 you effectively have 3 wars being fought: the war in the Pacific which is largely motivated by territorial ambition and imperialism- given japans impressive modernization one can understand why they felt above their neighbors, much like how some Europeans did. and that was another motivator for their crimes.
In the east you have a war of Annihilation motivated by two evil and destructive ideologies giving no quarter.
and in the West. for most of the war its almost business as usual. in the early desert war crews of Knocked out tanks were often allowed to escape, their opposites often waving to them 'better luck next time chaps!' so i think it also depends on who they are fighting. i don't think the klingons would fight the Cardassians with the same ferocity they might the Romulans.
You have some good points but Worf said in an episode of DS9 when someone questioned him about cloaking being dishonorable and Worf told him that in battle nothing is more honorable than victory,most of the dishonorable Klingons were leaders and others in power and not wanting to lose said power.
precisely its actually more entwined with the ruling houses justifying their power by showing acts of military might.
This picture of Gowron made me laugh, ty I needed that today
your welcome. i couldn't resist ;)
Klingons have honor, but only among themselves...just like House Kurita. Federated Suns 4 LYFE!
Kurita pursues it's interests in opportune moments , they strike while the iron is hot. You cant blame them for that.
@@fireweaver3606 You can blame them for butchering innocent men women and children in the Kentares massacre, for double dealing during the Amaris civil war and for basically starting the first Succession War
Klingons were combining Japanese and Viking culture together. So their honor system was an odd blend.
I got the idea (after watching the episode in which they first appear) that they were a direct imitation of The Huns or possibly even the Mongolians. Obviously they've been expanded upon since then by many writers.
Agree with you venom - klingon honor is a bullcrap, bunch of slavers and conquerors.
Rather like the Islamic hordes, then and today.
I'm pretty sure that the portrayal of Klingon society in TNG and DS9 was intentional.
When you look at how they throw around the word honor, you could just replace it with freedom or constitution. Lofty words used for cynical political grandstanding.
Everybody who's listening to the guy knows he's full of it but everybody is still taking him seriously beause he's using the magic word.
The whole thing is acknowledged at the end of DS9 when Worf challenges Gowron and kills him, making Martok chancellor, ending on a hopeful note that things will finally start to change for the better.
On the whole honor in defeat thing, Klingons aren't actually wholly opposed to it. In 'The Way of the Warrior' Worf quotes Kahless saying 'Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat'. So there is even a provision in the klingon code of honor for surrender or at least a tactical retreat.
Though a good video, i cannot state how close you got by identifying the Norse and Japanese influences on Klingon culture, but couldn't understand that Honor doesn't have to be held to Western ideals.
As a former US Army service member, one of our core values is Honor. Now our honor is defined closer to western ideology such that you described (fairness, bravery, etc), but i know that other cultures often follow different beliefs.
From Wikipedia, "Honour (British English) or honor (American English; see spelling differences) is the idea of a bond between an individual and a society as a quality of a person that is both of social teaching and of personal ethos, that manifests itself as a code of conduct, and has various elements such as valour, chivalry, honesty, and compassion."
Simply put, honor is following a code of ethics. No matter what those ethics are.
You cite several elements that you dont view as honorable, but in other cultures are viewed as honorable. To face a foe when there is jo other option but defeat is considered honorable in a lot of eastern beliefs.
I think the problem you are having is that Klingons aren't displaying the type of honor you recognize, but it doesn't mean that they don't have their own core precept of values.
I recommend you read "The Klingon Art of War", as it outlines the 10 precepts of klingon culture (ie, their code of honor).
Reading your comment, I was reminded of a scene from 'The Last Samurai' where Algren describes Custer's folly. Algren thought Custer was a fool, but Katsumoto was intrigued by Custer's actions.
thank you i definitely will.
Here's an excellent video on just this subject - ruclips.net/video/rnWOHVOVgFQ/видео.html
I don't normally drop links in the comments but sfdebris explains things far better than I ever could. In fact the process he answers some of
Venom Geek Media 98 questions while rebutting others.
The klingon honor system is defined by who is the strongest
Totally agree! Klingon honor is hypocritical and phony as Ezri Dax explains to Worf in Season 7
Love Worf but he did say that Honor and Courage were Starfleet's greatest advantage against the Borg when it was obvious they were totally Effed.
Concerning the Enterprise-C, I think Klingons find that 'Honorable' because it was in service or to the benefit of the Klingons and the Enterprise died fighting whilst doing it. "Defending the weak" is not something that is directly in the Klingon mindset except perhaps in a feudal system way of things meaning the need to defend their vassals and territory.
Perhaps the Klingons see a distinct difference between personal defeat and capture, and on the other hand the defeat of an opposing nation and it's vassalization
by the great Klingon Empire. One has a person thrown in a cage, whilst the other essentially ends with a deal at a table / throne and the trading of flags. Kahless the Unforgettable did unite and found the Empire from conquering rival feudal kingdoms.
There is also the idea that 'just because something you do is dishonorable doesn't mean you can't live with it.' It's dishonorable to be taken prisoner, yet Worf and Martok were foreseeing the songs that will be sung of their difficulties surviving and at the end their glorious escape of said Jem'Hadar Dominon prison colony.
Just for martok and worf's pow experience I think the klingons would find the jem'hadar prison system Much more metal than a federation war prison. You fought until you died in pit matches. Looks like they practiced they're fighting skills AND managed to killed more enemy while doing! That and they added that if you escape on your own, I think? And not just traded after a conflict still counts as fighting to your last.
I dont believe that the klingons viewed the Enterprise C defending their colony by coming to the aid for those who are weak, but by facing overwhelming odds of a greater foe with dignity that earned the Klingon respect.
Other comments have mentioned that honour is fairly subjective but on the other hand I'd have to say Klingons are practice moral particularism to an extreme degree in the application of who is and isn't honourable. An enemy who defeats them is generally dishonourable by virtue of having won under any conditions other than beating them while they held advantage meanwhile a klingon victory achieved by almost any means is honourable.
The clone of Kahless programmed with holy scriptures in TNG S6E23 insisted Klingon honor has been corrupted from the standards the empire was founded upon! However, the intended honour code reforms were mostly unclear and writers continued to redefine them to fit the story they wanted to tell.
Family pride was the usual definition of honour for the warrior cast. However, victory by any means necessary didn't extend to the intellectual castes in Klingon society, which are considered less honorable, such as defense attorneys are expected to do their duty and lose to more honorable prosecutors. Exaggeration and deception are usually considered honorable tactics, except when applied in a way dishonorable species would, such as Ferengi financial fraud.
Interesting video! If you look at the species in the franchise that are VERY aggressive by nature they ALL use something to help them control it,for example humans turned their violence into an OUTWARD exploration of space,the klingons created rules to manage it,vulcans turned inward suppressing it,the various hunter species HUNT,etc...So while it may seem like the kilngons don't do anything to better themselves they actually ARE.
interesting some klingons like worf certainly do but equally he was raised in a federation culture that encourages those virtues. you look at someone like Matok who holds many of the same values as worf, who is a 'good' klingon but he is silent and ultimately complicit in the corrupt Gowron government.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Actually the more I think about it the more I think the klingons are more honorable then it at first may seem for example take a look at all of their appearances,antaak was trying to save lives,azetbur overcame her hatred,kor/kang/koloth were all honorable,gorkon was,gowron was MOST of the time,grilka was,martok was he just saw himself as a "simple soldier"and didn't WANT political power,kurn was,kahlest was,k'mpec was as he flat out said he was trying to prevent a civil war and effectively sacrificed his honor for that and we KNOW that's the case because when he's dying he appoints picard as arbiter of succession because he knew the lines had been drawn and personal bias would affect klingon judgement but he WANTED an honorable decision,huraga was,kargan was(just dumb as a rock :P)there's a lot more but overwhelmingly klingons are honorable if only by THEIR violent standards.
I think it depends. If you're fighting an enemy who plans to enslave you or exterminate you, then fighting to the last man, seems pretty honorable to me.
true... though how often does that happen. most of the time conflicts are fought over more limited objectives.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 The Mexicans in The US Mexican War kept an insurgency going for months out of the fear they would be enslaved, after having been defeated. After a long quagmire a US commander negotiated a deal where they keep territories in California etc, in exchange for leaving Mexico.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 or if you want a Star Trek example, look at how almost everybody fights tooth and nail to NOT be assimilated by the Borg in Star Trek.
I think the gorn and orians didn't surrender but swore fealty to the imperial throne. Which means if the klingon feudal system works like the ones on earth there was a lot of pageantry to satisfy honor and a whole lot of back room negotiating to ensure there was a smooth integration. The period of Japanese history I think most describes the Klingons is the shogunate where there was a lot of lip service given to the emperor but the power was in the hand of the shogun. The emperor's name was used as a tool when their code conflicted with realities so when faced with the undeen threat and a potential war with the federation the Klingons dug into their feudal past and allowed the gorn and orians to become vassals of the empire.
I was always told the Klingons were based on the Native Americans and our system of honor
Great video !
Those Klingons are honorless dogs in some things and honorable men / warriors in other aspects A
Klingons have more honor than the Cardassian's, Romulans, and the Cardassian Alliance.
Also, the Klingons can go to war against each other at the drop of a hat.
And the Klingons stole the cloaking device from the Romulans
Klingon war and honor culture might have been similar to European and or chinese especially since they didn't stop using blades weapons the whole time[probably]. I mean the concept of being given an honorable treatment as prisoners probably evolved further on after the use of expendable and finite munitions became the standard throughout most armies. Then when you literally fire your last bullets and ready with bayonets and swords depending on the forces fighting the losers could easily take the surrender under the quarter given to eachother. When you get rather pissed off armies fighting eachother then the idea of fighting to your last Shell, bullet, bayonet, knife, rock and your fist becomes your only option. Usually humans and other sentient species have a high survival instinct but Klingons have been shown to not have those emotions like fear that dictate whether we cry uncle and give up. In other cases the care of POW's was an afterthought in the wars fought so that can add to the phenomenon of fighting with no Quarter given or Accepted in a battle too. [shite, now i gotta listen to that Zeppelin song. oh woe is me lol!]
The Klingons are ruled by a warrior aristocracy, and war, as we know, is a path of deceit. They are no different from the Earthen medieval knights and nobles, except that they prefer more spartan conditions instead of luxury. Honor is a currency which is not scattered left and right. It's not the Klingons' fault that you couldn't find their ship. They did everything right, hit with maximum efficiency. Defended some station? Well done, you protected respected people. Doesn't care about the rest of the rabble. At first, the Romulans were not respected, and then they began to be respected. Well, apparently the Romulans somehow restored their honor in their eyes. I understand the whole thing in the battle that the Klingons lost to the Romulans? Well, this is completely normal, I'm sure, digging into our medieval history, there will be many examples when "we fought honestly, but the dishonest French outwitted us" or "we outwitted the stupid French and covered ourselves with eternal glory" or something like that.
Codes of honor are very much based on culture. Japan for example went through a major cultural change between the late 1800's and WWII. When they defeated the Russians, they treated the prisoners so well that many Russians sailors chose to stay in Japan after the war. Fast forward to WWII and you see a 180 degree change in their treatment of prisoners which violated Bushido.
The Klingon honor code grew from their fight against the Hurk. Not much is known in cannon about this period but one could reasonably surmise that the Hurk displayed cruelty towards prisoners and would fight to the last and thus the Klingon learned to emulate it. Just a theory.
interesting i didn't know that. but it makes sense during the Russo-Japanese war they were determined to prove themselves as a Major power equal to the European empires.
this is a supposition but after that and given the state of china- they saw themselves as the rightful rulers of Asia and thats where the change happened.
The honor codes of knights, samurai and Klingons are all fine and dandy the issue is people themselves, people twist these honor codes to fit their situation and to avoid consequences. Samurai were well know for beheading peasants for simply not bowing and medieval knights were hardly better.
Klingons go on and on about their honor but routinely attack ships 3 on 1, use the same cloaking tactics as Romulans who they routinely call dishonorable and used horrific chemical warfare on ground troops during the Four Year war in the fasa-verse. There are exceptions like Worf but it seems the code is pretty loose on what honor really is and every culture has different takes on what honor really is.
The Klingon empire codified the justice system but not a code of honor.If they cared about honor, between Star Trek 6 and TNG, one of the councillors could have written down something and base the KDF operations on it. The KDF instead became nothing but raiders by deep space 9
Klingon honor is similar to Japanese `gimu`, so it's rather "perseverance" and "to thy own be true-ness" than honor in European tradition. And about inherent property of Jem'Hadar, it never was said that they aren't honorable, the account present in DS9 stated that "They don't require honor to be better warriors than us". In that sense Jem'Hadars are abomination in some way. In TNG Worf literally said that Kardas*s*ians have no honor, but that sounded like his own opinion on the matter.
the hell, Google.. why Kardas*s*ians are edited into "Kardashians"
Well is the federation honorable? in DS9 I would state that they are NOT, especially Sisko isn't very honorable.
Ezri said it best.
Honour is a broad term that follows a code of ethics, and these ethics aren't always the same. For example to me killing someone who doesn't want to fight but is still armed and not to be taken lightly id do the "honourable" thing and demand he/she surrender by following a set code of ethics and rules of engagement engrained in my mind during basic training and beyond, but in saying that if they didn't surrender straight away and throw the weapon away injured or not id shoot them without even blinking an eye and move on is it honourable? Well yes it is as I don't know if he's going to shoot me then my brother behind me to me im saving my brothers lives im not thinking about my own and i gave them a chance thats the difference. However Klingons follow different ethics where killing your enemy no matter what will bring them honour, and victory is the number 1 goal at ANY cost no matter what if it's a worthy enemy or not. That and there is a deep religious reasons behind Klingon honour where they literally believe they go to heaven for being honourable. Which is very different than what we're taught in the British army where of course it's not religious. Also honour is something nearly everyone who is truly honourable wont admit that they are honourable they just "get on with it", true fact thats often over looked and in my opinion is the main reason it's over used by Klingons in the shows as the ones preaching honour and saying they are honourable are infact the most dishonourable Klingons out the bunch.
Klingon honor is thrown at everything way too much just like here on earth. Honor just becomes an excuse to do bad things like honor killings, shotgun weddings, an honorable withdrawal, duelling because honor has to be satisfied. Military notions of honor becomes a little dodgy when the ends justify the means come to play.
But Star Trek sometimes turns many of the alien races into monolithic cultural pigeonhole stereotypes.
Samurai armies have retreated from battles because they ran out off bullets and arrows or because they sustained too many casualties. Lords have been know to use assassins, poisons and switch sides.
Death before dishonor is not always automatic like in DS9 when they found the real General Martok was still alive in the Dominion POW facility. They explained it isn't a dishonor to be taken prisoner if you think you have a chance to escape.
A lot of aspects of Bushido kind of weren't observed and didn't exist until the unification of Japan under the Tokugawa after the warring states era was over. Samurai with no wars to fight became more spiritual and focused on their honor code and somewhat romanticized the warring states period.
Worf a Klingon who built his whole life around Klingon stories of Kahless and great tales of honor had a very romanticized view compared to the reality of Klingon practice of honor that he was far removed from while living in the Federation as boy for decades. Worf eventually decides to support the clone of Kahless as emperor as means to make honor great again.
Kahless gave the Klingons honor so one could assume Klingon society and culture could had have little sense of honor or completely devoid of it. Centuries of ebb and flow on the value of honor and trying to keep it from sliding out of relevance. Worf also said if his people returned to the old ways no one would be safe.
In Enterprise the Klingon advocate Kolos that defended Archer talked about the rise to warrior class and how the tribunals became it's tool. Kolos also talked about how honor was earned back in his day through integrity and acts of true courage and not senseless bloodshed. The pursuit of honor through victory of any kind had consumed the young.
The Duras family was an old and powerful Klingon house that was corrupt, dishonorable and had no sense of loyalty. But had significant support on the High Counsel to hide it's crimes and treachery. Galrown commits Klingon forces to bad military operations in order to discredit and dishonor Martok to prevent any challenge to his chancellorship.
Klingons using a cloak is just another tool of war like attacking from the direction of the sun to blind the enemy or using a submarines against surface ships.
Some video on Klingon history and culture worth checking out.
ruclips.net/video/a_fh8sJet6w/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/CbrN4MdJdVA/видео.html
interesting i never thought about it but it does make sense that the samurai would be romanticized in much the same way Victorian Literature Romanticized knights. in reality they were more like mercenaries in Game of Thrones characters like Bronn and the Hound are probably more true to reality especially in how they fought.
and i agree with you on the corruption of the klingon justice system. you would expect the klingons to have a love of truth and a zeal for justice especially with their religious foundations in Kahless. perhaps what has corrupted Honor is the role of Status and bloodline in klingon society over merit much like in late medieval Europe and this in time might corrupt the religous foundations see the 'House or Borgia' in Renaissance Rome.
They werent all that honorable in enterprise either
Klingons use the word honour like America uses the word freedom. It can just be illogically attached to any side of an argument regardless of if it makes sense. Eg people should have freedom to carry a gun. People should also be free to live in a country without guns on every street. If you won't fight me you have no honour but if you force someone into a fight that doesn't want to your are cowardly and without honour. For Klingon s it's just a buzz word to make any argument unchallengeable.
THERE'S THE CODE TO CONSIDER, AYE THE CODE OF KAHLESS. EDIT: Actually the TOS Klingons are actually pretty reasonable when compared to the utterly malfunctioning Klingons from TNG. Even as bad guys they are shown to be capable and there leader far from stupid. don't forget that episode where Kirk and the Klingon commander are ranting at the Algerians fro TAKING AWAY THEIR RIGHT TO COMMIT GALACTIC WARS!
true i always got the impression from TOS klingons that their culture wasn't that 'alien' and there's more a rivalry than genuine adversaries for the most part.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 plus they're generally a lot more competant in EVERY way. Even Kirk admits they're efficient if not ruthless.
WHAT KNOW YOU OF HONOR, HUMAN !?
I think you may be struggling to get a handle on bushido because you're thinking too legalistically, and looking for rules and prohibitions for an *individual* point of view. (and thus thinking people could argue their way out of about anything,) ...but you may be forgetting that in Japan the samurai types were *not* alone in a vaccuum; it really mattered what your peers and the lords you served and your opponents thought, too. So someone would likely feel they had to fight *you* over it if you were trying to rationalize something considered dishonorable. (Though they did consider themselves to have the authority to deal life and death regarding lower classes of people if they were ever insulted, and might consider themselves shamed if they let a lot of disrespect go.)
They do believe in the honorable defeat, just not honorable surrender. Throughout trek when the odds turn against them they do the "its a good day to die". Dying on the battlefield is as honorable as it gets. Its less akin to bushido and leans more towards nordic traditionsnof valhalla. Witness my heroic death so I can go to stovakor (basically valhalla). Dying is the ultimate defeat, so if they did not see defeat as honorable, they would only engage in battle when victory was assured, they would be opportunistic like the ferrangi.
Its only surrender that they despise. So definitely more space vikings then space samurai. Also clans having their own ships is very akin to nordic towns building their own boats to on "viking (raiding). They are in this sense tribalistic and operate in a confedercy.
i think you would definitely see those behaviors and practices in early Klingon during the 21st-22nd century. you look at their ships next to the vulcans, its no contest. i think the change maybe happens in the 23rd century where their military becomes much more regimented and centrally organized.
So do some don’t a cloak is a cowards weapon a bird of prey that can fire while cloaked is a even bigger cowards weapon
How dare you say that I will see you in The Arena.
Ya some of them don't Warf thou yes he dose I think but some attack innocent vessels for sport.
With respect I can tell you have some biases or at the very least misconceptions of history.
I assure you colonialism did not end with ANY country after defeating and exploiting their country resources (in your examples young men to be used as weapons) was done by asking them to fight for you or "join" you.
Colonialism in particular British, French, and Dutch colonialism was brutal and dehumanizing. And it was always done at the barrel of a gun, and there wasn't a mutual respect outside of they fight for you.
Don't believe me look in the Nepalese Gurkha veterans and how they've still have yet to get equal retirement benefits as WW2 veterans after the war. Just as the unequal treatment of Black solderers in the United States, the concept of "Honor" has never existed in any of our countries friend and they ring hollow as the concept of "Honor" Klingons promote to have.
perhaps but its important to distinguish the different approaches. with british colonialism the goal was always to co-opt the existing power structure to give an appearance of continuity. its why the only part of the british empire that was called an empire was India because it maintained a continuity of having emperors.
First like and first comment