Halo SAVED First Person Shooters (Response to Under the Mayo and DJ Peach Cobbler)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- DJ Peach Cobbler: • Identity Crisis: Why H...
Under the Mayo: • Halo Ruined First Pers...
Join the Discord: / discord
Many believe that Halo's impact on the FPS genre has been detrimental. Is this true? Has Halo set the game industry down a dark path?
Halo's design at GDC: • Tuning the Muzzle Velo...
Halo Reach Hunger games: • "Hunger Games"
Halo Speedrun: • Halo in 1:06:15 - Lege...
#Halo #HaloRuinedFPS
Surprised how well this videos been received. Thanks for watching! I appreciate all of your comments. I really want to reiterate: Please do not go to the channels/videos I'm responding to and troll/spam. Thank you.
It was a great video. You've seen got a new sub from me
Halo is perfect for Halo it's not meant to cater to Doom babies or freaking other game plays because Halo was its own separate entity its own separate Beast it helped create a whole genre of games and now it's been replaced by another genre of games that's what people don't realize things change While others stay the same Halo stays the same for what works and other games are experimenting and failing in certain aspects that's why Halo 4 and 5 weren't up to standard for what came before because of the advanced movement and then Halo Reach was like somewhere in that category for advanced movement but it's more experimental it's not built-in there's no Sprint built into it you have to pick up the power up in order to Sprint
Mayo gonna start talking shit, down worry tho, he's not very smart
I feel like an aspect of the decline in popularity for Halo that you didn't mention but seems important is that the FPS market is significantly more saturated and diverse than it was when Halo debuted in 2001. When there's 15 AAA FPS games to pick from in a given year of course not everyone is gonna buy only one of them. Whereas in 2001 there were like 3 major releases worth buying.
You're an amazing speaker and you make great arguments presented in a captivating way, been binging your channel recently after seeing this. That was really nice of Mayo to give you a signal, I'm looking forward to his response for more perspectives to consider.
The bit about grenades' role in Halo being an AoE damage to compensate for lack of console aiming precision is baffling when Halo's plasma grenade specifically enormously rewards direct hits
It's not "oh no you can't easily hit the enemy, so have some AoE damage to compensate", it's the extreme end of the dodgeable projectile sandbox - extremely slow but extremely lethal, forcing the player to dodge on the receiving end and rewarding them for being accurate with their own throws.
My favorite part about that critique is like "oh my god, you're right! It is a grenade!" Imagine like a soldier tossin a frag, and they're like "well you only do that for the massive AOE, no skill involved"
Ive been using plasma nade more as timed door mines now. Aim for a corner run away
I feel like it's ignore just how evasive the AI can be when attacked with a grenade when on a difficulty higher than easy
Y'all ever grenade spam an elite that keeps dodging diagonally backwards?
@@colbyboucher6391 lol. And Doom’s is a S H O T G U N
I'd like to add that if you seriously can't aim well in Halo's campaign with a controller..... lol. With few exceptions precision aim just isn't necessary. Even with a magnum hitting heads is nigh effortless for anybody with an active brain cell.
And like others are saying it's not like it was very hard to aim well in classic Doom either. You didn't even have to worry about aiming vertically. Just shotgun/minigun/rockets/bfg go brrrrr
you forgot to mention that halo invented tea bagging, the single most influential multiplayer trend.
pretty sure it was counter-strike
My man just spoke the truth.
@@jarvy251 nope
@@jarvy251 from a quick google search, it seems like cs started it, and halo popularized it.
Invented by Counter-Strike, Popularized by Halo
I love how they complained about the flood rushing them when that's kinda the point of the parasite called "the flood". The flood changed the pace of halo when they first appeared, you had to change your tactics a bit when dealing with them
Edit: Them replies are interesting
I mean... isn't that the aggressive gameplay they complained the game didn't have? I've never thought Halo was a tactical slow paced shooter, even on higher difficulties.
@@JZStudiosonline Halo 2 kind of does at times feel like a tactical shooter but that's because of Sniper Jackals and how squishy you are on Legendary, Heroic is pretty challenging but it's mostly fair in my experience.
@@kabob0077 People really need to fuck off with legendary. It's annoying. Everyone knows H2's legendary is fucking broken bullshit. Although I'm also remembering that the level where Chief is teleported by Gravemind to High Charity is fucked on MCC because the brutes start shooting you and can kill you before you even have control.
I've been playing Halo for years and never even bothered with legendary. Anyone who does so and then complains that enemies do too much damage is a smooth brain. If you really want to be able to mess around and play super aggressively you can play on normal or easy. No hard mode in any game is designed to not be bullshit, and almost all of them only have a change in enemy health and damage output. Halo isn't really any different.
What annoys me more is Halo is the only game franchise I know of where people constantly talk about having to do it on the hardest difficulty despite them knowing it's broken bullshit. I honestly question how many people lie about doing it on legendary, no one ever admits to just playing on normal or heroic.
@@JZStudiosonline Legendary is pretty fair outside of being made of wet tissue paper in Halo 2, I went through all the games except for 2, 4, 5, and ODST with some friends on Legendary and the experience wasn't that bad outside of connection issues on Two Betrayals of all levels. Also, Achievements do exist for bragging rights and beating a game on the hardest difficulty and having something to show for it probably boosts a few egos.
@@kabob0077 That doesn't make sense. You're saying you played "all of the games" but then exclude everything but 1 and 3.
But of course it's easier with friends. You can all die and just respawn, so long as you don't all die together. You're also then paired up with up to 3 other people who hopefully aren't as suckass and immediately killable as the marines. CE got pretty tedious with how long it kept spawning some enemies at you, which got worse on legendary. I've never touched H2 on legendary. Might've done the others on mythic.
Ehh. Most people don't care about achievements, and that's an objective fact that's now proven by the fact that they have percentages now. When only 30% of players have reached mission 3 on normal, it's not a major point of interest. I'm on PC, but Steam says only 9.7% of players have beaten the par time on Tsavo highway. I wish I could tell how many beat the campaign, but Steam is dumb.
"halo ruined fps games because it popularized a genre I don't like"
Honestly, the title of Mayo's video was Angerbait, I like Mayo, but if I haven't come across him before that video, I probably would have ignored it due to it's bias and ignorance
@@TwiZt3d_KL0WN He did the same thing with the angerbait when TAG2 came out for DOOM Eternal.
@@insert_username_here208 Mayo made a re-review video on TAG2 because of the affect his first review was having, it's a game he cares about and he got over emotional in his first review, his Capcom Resident Evil remake reviews are a better example of his Angerbait tactic, I understand Mayo to an extent, I enjoy Mayo, but sometimes he's like what Ben Shapiro is to Politics, he makes his arguments "factual", not caring about the people he shits on in the process, but...about videogame design...which is subjective, fun itself is subjective, but Mayo takes what's "not fun" to him and makes it out to be "lazy" which bothers me just a bit, well, enough to waste my time to comment about it lmao
bingo
Ya his title probably should have been “halo ruined FPS games for me” because video games are subjective which he goes into he never really tries to hate on the game in the vid or the people who play it he just states what he personally dislikes
Absolute gigachad, someone who understands the actual reason why classic halo is held in high regard. New sub
Halo CE took what the original Half-Life did and put it on steroids, bungee said: oh hey you could put stories and cut scenes in a video game, well then we're going to do it better than anyone else in our current time.
Terachad*
@@gurusagaperi8867 petachad*
@@dominicscarlato326
GoogolChad!
@@theskieshavefallen8408 INFINICHAD
Mayo is notorious for his biases and double standards that aren't founded in logic. Being bias with your video game tastes is fine, but the main problem is that he takes these biases as objective facts and scrutinizes anyone who criticizes his claims, and he's never willing to admit it either.
He's just a boomer gamer.
Common UnderThrMayo L
"Swallow the Mayo"
Also.. why is slow bad? Don't people suck off Soulsbourne games for being slow and methodic?
Seriously though, Halo forces you to tango with enemies, there are few ways to actually cheese an enemy except if youve got power weapons which have limited resources. Each battle with an Elite or a Brute feels like a tiny little UFC match, a dance to the death, they can ruin you if you get to close, one shot you with a plasma grenade. Thats a good thing.
I really wonder how they managed to kill hummer brutes sitting behind the cover....
Same argument, you don't have to be slow and methodic in dark souls. It's your choice.
@@garsedj tbh, even Dark Souls fast isn't awfully fast
Idk about DJ but mayo never said slow was bad anywhere in the vid the title was the only part he even said halo was bad and that was probably jus click bait
Also I don’t thing bloodborne or DS3 are really slow especially bloodborne which encourages faster play and sekiro (idk how to spell it) is fast too
This video really makes me wish we could get all the fans together that actually KNOW about halo and what makes it great and make an indie shooter with all those elements.
Splitgate is made by Halo fans
@@ShreddedNerd I like splitgate but, it's not a halo replacement. I'm talking a game that would make bungie era halo fans see the halo brand as obsolete and have a total exodus, letting 343 chase whatever audience it is they are going for unimpeded by us. It seems like the ideal scenario at this point to me.
@@KOBULT92 Splitgate is kinda of more fast paced. Honestly I may just be slow in the head but I refer halo because its less competetive and I can understand what I am doing
@@KOBULT92 so basically halo 3 again?
@@spooky_4624
No.
Not "halo 3 again"
It would be the natural evolution of 3, instead of an abrupt, drastic, fundamental change. It would be the game people in 2009 would have expected 4 to be if we never got reach.
I feel like the whole “halo ruined shooters” argument is flawed mostly because it’s not that Halo ruined shooters but because, similar to Half Life, a lot of following shooters took the wrong lessons from Halo.
That was pretty much what Mayo was saying in the original video, people just have qualms with his personal opinion about Halo itself because he isn't a Halo fan. People forget this but there was a bit of a divide that happened back in the day when it came to who transitioned over to Halo and Half Life and those who stuck to games like Doom, Duke Nukem and Wolfenstein.
Mayo falls into the latter and largely likes games that are both engaging and have depth in their decision making. Halo, for as much as I love the game, was the first time we saw the decision making in an FPS reel back. Like, sure, some levels like Silent Cartographer have a beautiful depth to how you can approach them, but then you also have levels like Assault on the Control room which by modern standards are largely just you walking from one copy & paste arena layout to the next, only occasionally interjected by an open battlefield or larger set piece.
The game holds up nowadays more so for what it introduced and how it pushed other features forward, but Mayo's experience was mostly second hand and having it be THE game all of his friends wanted to shoot each other in,and Halo 1's multiplayer hasn't aged incredible well by comparison. What you get is an ultimately slower, more methodical shooter that will appeal more so to those who can get soaked up in the atmosphere and world it is presenting as well as the clean gameplay elements. Those who like having all the tools handed to them and then being asked how they will break the game probably won't be as enthused, which Mayo very much is.
If a game is slow and methodical to him, he wants it to be a horror game.
I love Half-Life.
DJ and Mayo where making completely different arguments
Exactly. No one actually ever tried making a Halo clone. They tried to kill Halo
@@Freelancer837 Haze, Killzone and Chrome would like to have a word with you...
Under the Mayo's whole argument against Halo is "I hate how you gotta reload." Just fucking batshit insane.
he hates reloading yet have no problem with the chainsaw in Doom Eternal which is basically glorified reloading.
I mean I like Doom Eternal, and I wouldn’t have a problem with ID taking over development in place of 343, but Halo isn’t Doom.
His problem was how much slower halo made shooters he is just a different person with different tastes I don’t think it’s that batshit to grow up with games like quake, wfenstein and unreal and prefer that style
@@speedyfunzalaz that’s part of Halo’s identity though, it’s always been intended to be a slower and more methodical shooter, where aim is favored over movement.
@@speedyfunzalaz there is a difference between having different tastes and saying shit like "there was no movement" and "this game is a cover shooter" while using footage of a level that's mostly corridors and trying to bullet hose elites with an assault rifle at range.
This vid has existed for 1 minute and its already in my recommended. GG great vid so far
I know right? RUclips knows I watched the video this one is made in response to.
You should've just shown a MintBlitz clip
just to end the movement argument
True lmfao
69 likes, make a wish!
@@colbyboucher6391 it's a joke my man
@@colbyboucher6391 why not? Anyone who puts enough time and dedication into learning and playing halo would be very good at it. Few months back, I started playing halo again and watched tips and tricks on sniping, after all, I’ve always been bad at sniping. After a lot of practice, I’ve became a lot better at sniping, more than I expected. Not as good pro players, but surprisingly closer than I expected. I was considering to do the same for movement; however infinite is around the corner and its movement is considerably different, so I won’t bother.
Like 95% of people who play halo can't even play like that, it takes fucking years even for professionals to learn those kinds of tricks whereas classic shooters give you them from the start.
These guys really didn't notice counter strike. That game gave us uneven starts, cover based shooters and very slow paced shooters. The last 2 are what these 2 RUclipsrs are blaming Halo for
Yeah, I'm with @Butthurt - - Over facts I wouldn't call Splitgate the most popular FPS. A very popular one, sure, but I bet Apex Legends has the same size player base, which is the definition of popularity.
As for "most talked about", which could be another way of determining a games popularity, Halo Infinite is being more talked about than Splitgate in my experience.
@Redbeard -TLoPO Life ...this is a genuine problem with Splitgate though. Unironically enemies sometimes won't render on the other side of the portal and just shotgun you on occasion.
_then again my pc is dogwater, so that could just be on my end?_
Youre wrong on that part. No game.was trying to copy CS. Every game was copying halo. CS was its own game from day 1.
@@morky3673 ya these guys are acting like halo wasn’t the big influence it was jus because counter strike was first
Halo: Reach was peak Halo.
You could drive Forklifts.
The art of halo could finally imitate life.
"Driving Forklifts in Reach is just another example of Halo's being a bad Doom game and worse than Doom 2016 : In Doom you get a cutscene where a BFG over 9000! shoots you and it's so epic, whereas in Reach they blatantly copy pasted a traversal game mechanic from a generic German Construction Site Simulator."
UnderTheMayo's rebuttal argument to your poorly uninformed comment that didn't even mention how Doom is Jesus second and third coming (probably)
"I saw god, and he was forklift certified."
This is why Shenmue is the best Halo-like
shenmue was peak halo
It amazes me how misunderstood Halo's design is. Despite being on top of gaming as a whole for a brief period and being in some respects very influential, there's never been a true "Halo clone" that gets at the core of the game's design. There are clones of every popular game, CoD clones, Doom clones, CS clones; but no Halo clones. At best you see slight influence. This has always been weird to me, has made me think Halo is so contrary to industry thinking in general that people don't even try to copy it.
If it was some obscure series from the 2000's, ecelebs today would be making "video essays" about this weird kind of arena shooter kind of not with a wacky story that you should check out if you get the chance and want something different to play, but it gets paradoxically ignored and written off because of its former popularity.
Maybe the real issue is that Halo was the game the kids who bullied the future "video essayists" played.
it truly is a mystery how halo is so misunderstood
Well said. It's honestly strange how no one was able to truly come close to Halo's sandbox despite many games' attempts at being "Halo killers".
You don't have to put video essayists in quotes. Regardless of whether you agree with their views, making a 40 minute video is still a lot of work and should be respected as such.
@@Beghty27
lol no
Splitgate has done a very good job of making halo 3 meets portal with sprint and a jump pack. Seriously play splitgate for an hour or so and you’ll think you played an H3 match.
I find this arguement so fucking bizarre as someone who grew up playing and loved both halo and DOOM. In reality they both share core values in their gameplay to me atleast. In halo the covenants slower plasma shots (CE more so than later titles) enticed the player to always stay on the move in order to strafe and avoid damage. In DOOM if you aren't constantly moving (granted at a faster speed but that's due to fast demons) you will get pummeled and burnt alive by the hordes of enemies. In halo there is weapon utilities such as the fact that plasma weapons are more effective against shielded enemies while ballistic weapons are better against unshielded (may be wrong on that) enemies, you need to know your targets state and how to respond appropriately. In DOOM you have a large arsenal all with different strengths and weaknesses and you need to know which situations they best perform in and against which enemies. Anyways there is more examples I can think of more than these but this comment is already longer than anyone will read so idk.
his main point is that these youtubers blanket statement these mechanics with there bias rather than ask the question if halo's gameplay is truly flawed. people like under the mayo will constantly say that halo is dumbed down without looking at the full gameplay loop and they come off as rude because they don't asses the game properly
@@cheesenibbla8339 yeah and to be honest I think he feels an obligation to put DOOM Eternal on a pedestal in some regards. Since it is what he built his channel on maybe he wanted to use halo as a way to make doom look better but idk. I usually enjoy his vids but his halo one took me by surprise
@@sheravmaharaj317 yes and at the end of the day it is still his video and i like doom also, its just halo is in a weird spot where it has a very intentional type of design that is deliberate and fleshed out but because certain people take it at face value halo is taken as an overtly simplistic game. It is in some regards but the design choices in halo were made for a genuine reason outside of bring made for console first.
yea, tbh bro: i think i play classic doom and halo the same way. i might be trash so idk. but at least halo's enemies don't have hitscan most times.
Exactly! Halo is iterative on FPS design elements which are present in DOOM and DOOM II! I don't understand why there should be any conflict between liking one and liking the other. Master Chief's movement isn't as fast, but the gameplay is otherwise very similar to a classic FPS. Stay mobile. Use the right gun for the right enemy. React quickly to what the enemy is doing. Control crowds. The grenade and melee buttons just make the whole process that much faster, more fluid and more natural. Halo even has motherfucking power ups!
This may be the most complete and accurate description of what happened to Halo. It’s a shame that there are people who will ignore this video. How do they know classic Halo will fail when 343 has NEVER made a classic style Halo game?
And probably won't... I hope infinite is close though.
This video came out 5 days ago man give it time to breathe lol
@@EggEnjoyer We llikely won't get a true classic halo game, but Infinite isn't trying to be a classic it also isn't trying to be 4 or 5. It's being something fundamentally similar to its sister Reach. It's bring the aspect of classic halo games while giving it a slight twist to keep newer generations still interested, the way they did sprint as an example, it's barely and even slower than walking mostly because its being used as a tool and less of an accessory.
Tool as in allowing you to slide or clamber. It also doesn't stop you from firing, since there's no animation between you firing and you sprinting anymore.
We probably will never see a classic halo again… but infinite gets closer than 4 and 5.
This is ALWAYS the dumbest comment.. 343 LITERALLY been working on Halo since Halo 2 so they actually CREATED the "classic" Halo.. And today 343 has more devs from early 2ks bungie that worked on Halo than Bungie has devs that worked on Halo for them today.. 343 gets a REALLY bad wrap for just not being Bungie from older halo fans and thats it.. 343 makes better MP than bungie, their visually better, they just cant replicate bungies story telling and thats more about the times than anything at least imo..
This is what a low attention span leads us to.
Underappreciation.
Under the Mayo while playing a sandbox combat game:
"AAAAAAAAAAA Why doesn't the game tell me exactly what to do AAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!"
"I DON'T WANT TO BE GIVEN CHOICES, I WANT TO BE TOLD WHAT TO DO EVERY TIME"
@@ChanakyanStudent7971 You know, it's ironic that these RUclipsrs bitch about people who complain about the Marauder in DOOM: Eternal, then say shit about not having their hands held on how to play the game when it comes to open sandbox shooters like Halo.
I get it. DOOM offers a different experience than Halo. I, for one, enjoy it. It brings back the old classic fun of the DOOM franchise by reinvigorating the emphasis on movement and using the right tools for the right job.
But what people fail to understand, is that Halo, though based on DOOM, is a different experience overall.
And it's like asking an alien to name the flaws of human society, when it's values of what the alien deems "flaws" is completely different from our perspective as humans. You're not going to get an accurate answer, so Under the Mayo and these other RUclipsrs that think they're an authority on the matter need to stay in their territory, and Halo RUclipsrs will stay in their own.
Because trust me, DOOM isn't completely perfect either.
@@Gr4ntTheBoss Christ it's rare to see someone in RUclips comments spit these many facts
I have to say, these last few days before Halo Infinite's launch have seen the most eloquent Halo fans emerge from the cracks in the floorboards. Like, where have all you people been all these years that I've spent still playing my Xbox 360? I've had no one to have meaningful Halo talks with. Well, I turned my wife onto Halo and ended up turning her into one of those people, but other than her it's felt like a vacuum until recently. 😆
This is the effects of twitter, Instagram and TikTok
I saw a reddit post once where someone compared H3 MLG tournaments on the map Heretic to H5 HCS tournaments on the map Truth and found that H3 matches were about 2 and a half minutes faster on average while the games themselves had more total kills between the two teams on average. TLDR; H3 has faster matches with more average kills than H5 despite all the movement mechanics in H5. These movement mechanics make it so maps have to be scaled up tremendously which slows the game down. The movement mechanics also make it wayyyyyy easier to run away from fights which slows the game down. Despite popular belief, H5 is much slower than classic Halo.
Saved and screenshotted
“b-b-but your shields don’t charge when you sprint, so it’s completely fine!!!!”
@@keyboardstalker4784 pplaugh
The TL;DR section is longer than the main comment lol
@@colbyboucher6391 I didn't say that these stats prove it's bad. Just that it is slower despite what people claim. There are many other factors that make me greatly dislike the game but slow doesn't mean bad. Just pointing out that the common stigma about "oh classic Halo slow" is factually incorrect.
I'm not sure that Halo 2's Legendary was influenced by cover shooters. I think they just ran out of time and jacked up the enemy stats carelessly because of time constraints, and couldn't fine tune it like say, CE. Because it only feels that way on Legendary and not lower difficulties. That said, great video!
well said
Amazingly too that Halo 2 was made in 8 months lmao. Halo Infinite, by comparison, was made in 6 years.
H2, despite being fantastic, was horribly rushed and unbalanced on legendary. That difficulty was butchered.
It was actually the opposite, not so much that they jacked up the enemies as that they nuked your health bar so you die from a stiff breeze
halo CE, halo 3 and odst were actually very fun on legendary. Halo 2 was absolutely gut wrenching on legendary, even COOP because of the fact that if your friend dies it throws you back to the checkpoint.
"And they play on anniversary graphics"
Wait..
You're not supposed to do that?
ce anniversary looks kind of janky compared to the original game, jackals and elites don't even have necks and you can clip through certain objects due to them not being objects in the original build
Not to mention that anniversary just doesn't have the same artstyle as the original ce
Halo CE anniversary was outsourced to some smaller studios with only a few months and it was basically cobbled together with Reach assets and with little regard for the artistic integrity. There's some great videos on the topic on RUclips.
@@angryskeletonpope2334 compact hunters
The environment hitboxes in the Anniversary edition are atrocious, you will miss many shots that you fire at enemies near objects and waste ammo, and you will take damage when taking cover and thinking that you're safe, it's absolutely unplayable at higher difficulty settings. And that's just the gameplay part, artistically the game is a mess and does not respect the original whatsoever.
What Potato King said, go watch Noodles video on it. It's great.
I love the fact that it can basically be boiled down to Doom forces me to be in the fun zone but Halo doesn't and I'm not smart enough to work out how to get there on my own therefore bad game.
Mayo didn’t call it a bad game tho he said he just didn’t like it.
Legendary makes you unable to go toe to toe with the enemies, they have like 5000 health while you have like 50, in any fair trade off you will always lose, alot of the guns also feel very weak, for my playthrough I used mostly plasma pistol and marksmen rifle, as they were common and powerful, but the assault rifle was piss poor, handgun not common enough, plasma rifle, you needed to get way to close and overheated quickly so doesn't work vs a group and is terrible as a cover weapon
@@nineonine9082I'm guessing you're talking about Reach there, that games more removed from the previous with its weaker assault rifle and instant kill enemy melee's, the older games don't suffer from that
@@nineonine9082 you can go toe to toe with enemies, I can finish the game without dying on legendary bro you just have to play smart, constantly move and use cover
@@sa-amirel-hayeed699 I wouldn't mind that kind of gameplay if the guns felt good, but most guns in halo feel rubbish, only the plasma and marksmen weapons feel decent, but I can't expect much more from a console fps.
"You can make any game look bad if you play like a tool"
Best part of the whole video. Feels like they stuck to cover because it's what they "thought" the game wanted from them, when in fact staying in cover is a shitty noob strategy.
True chads bob and weave as the shield low indicator plays.
Covenant dance babyy
There is a reason sprint is such a controversial issue in halo. They had to actually slow the player down to slower than the original games in order to add sprint, to "speed the game up". You were ALREADY sprinting in halo 1-3, odst, and reach.
In a game without sprinting, you aee always sprinting.
Sprinting doesnt make you faster, it locks the top end of the movement scale behind atradeoff of not being able to attack. It is literally a downgrade.
Speed wouldnt be a problem in halo if chief shook his gun around like that doesnt make sense its just placebo. Im hardcore into destiny 2 and sometimes its just too chaotic, halo's more gunplay focused combat is what makes it special
you are into destiny I am so sorry I'm also into destiny and I feel your pain
@@penguin4241 destiny 2 is the crack of gaming
@@mrwafflez7211 Yeah it really is. The Witch Queen is looking like a promising batch tho .-.
@@apprenticeofbeleren hell yeah, gotta get me that glaive
@@penguin4241 it’s my favorite game I hate it so much
While I love these two videos you discussed I think it's no exaggeration that alot of what they said comes from a point of bias. You did a good job at undercovering that aspect and creating a fairly informed response that I haven't seen up until now.
Now if you excuse me I need to share this video because I feel more people need to see it
This is the voice of halo we’ve needed
Now we need the voice of God of War
Halo is the opposite of a cover shooter. It's a run, gun, & melee focussed game with cover elements that you can use if you wish. Playing it as a cover shooter is so wrongheaded!
....Everything turns to cover shooter if you got 1 hp.
@@johndexterzarate6663 then git gud.
Agreed in halo 3 and infinite you can not hide to recharge or you'll get a grenade or rocket to the face. The only way to stay in cover to heal is if the enemy doesn't know where you are or planning. a trap
@@why_is_this_a_thing play it on legendary. Strategy makes it a cover shooter. Play halo 2 legendary
@@dream_killer-cc3vr Halo 2 legendary sucks and afaik was never playtested
Trying to say that Halo is good or bad based on a single feature is another mistake they made. Halo (I'm just gonna clarify only the Bungie ones) have always been greater than the sum of their parts. For example, the story serves the gameplay, but the gameplay also serves the story, the music enhances the emotions of every part while the set-pieces reflect it's tones. The environment serves the movement system in a way that makes for different path variations. The movement system serves to navigate both through the environment and the battlefield. When the music picks up you know there's a fight nearby, when the area opens up to reveal high, exposed catwalks you know there's a sniper up there, every piece of Halo is intricately woven together to form what has become one of, if not the most popular video game in shooter history.
They weren’t saying it was bad bruh or at least mayo wasn’t
@@Mi-Alternar_por_Nathaniel he was acting as if a single feature determined whether the game was objectively good or not
"halo ruined first person shooters" is a comically bad gen Z take
Mayo is not a Gen Z though...
The title was just catchy, what he means is Halos influence on the industry, which I will still agree because it's not Halos fault, but everyone else's for trying to copy it. PC arena shooters weren't exactly being made as much as they used to be after Halo
@@robo-jesus6602 he def makes some shitty points tho😂😂😂 his reasoning is so bad
@@Sgt.ArchDornan which is funny since Halo is an arena MP shooter. Almost like halo wasn't the reason arena shooters were declining (hint: it was cod)
*it popularized lots of boring mechanics should be a better title. No single game can ruin a genre as huge as FPS. Not even COD,BF and CS combined.
Good video. I am primarily a 90s/2000s arena/indie retro boomer shooter type player. I LOVE Doom, and I personally think DOOM Eternal is the very best FPS experience of all time. But I also love Halo. It's just a different type of game. I think Halo is slowER than Doom, but is not a slow game.
I also consider Halo (3) the "last" arena shooter. It was the last bastion of classic FPS gameplay before Call of Duty took over and completely changed the FPS landscape. Halo shares more in common with the 90s games like DOOM and Quake than it does modern shooters like CoD. I do think there are some parts of Halo (starting from Reach) where Halo is losing it's identity because of following trends (loadouts, sprint, etc).
I also think Halo Infinite could (and should) learn from DOOM 2016/Eternal - but not in the sense that it should copy what Doom is and become a boomer shooter, moreso that it should look back to the original games, and reevaluate what people loved about the game and return to that in a "modern way" like 2016/Eternal did.
I hope there's another guy that's called "Under the Ham"
I personally prefer more creative sandbox type games like halo over more linear ones like doom but I completely agree how infinite needs a doom approach in terms of how it's being presented to the fans and how it's going to bring back all the retro gameplay bits to the fanbase
@@CommissarChaotic toghether they will become an "under the sandwich" podcast.
I think Reach is overall just as good as previous games even if it has some differences it’s still a Halo game and a good one.
@@Kelis98 I like Reach fine enough, mainly the single player (which I think is actually good), and Firefight. But I rarely play its competitive multiplayer. I just don't like the loadouts and Spartan Abilities.
seems like they forgot that those doom clones were in dying state back in those days and need to change somethings. as a guy who love both halo and doom, im glad that someone who really do know about halo start to responding to those video.
Yep contrary to popular belief...Arena fps was dying when Halo came out.....yet these people act like Halo killed A Fps....
"seems like they forgot that those doom clones were in dying state back in those days"
No one forgot, doom clones were dying because Half-Life had killed them in 1998. I had gotten a tase of Halo's coop at a friends house, but the time I got a full playthrough of the gearbox PC port in 2003, I couldn't figure out what the big deal was supposed to be. While Halo set the standard for how an FPS could be adapted to consoles, I've never understood people who acted like it had redefined the genre somehow.
It absolutely did. Because mechanically halflive was a halfbaked mess wich could barely hold itself up, much less show any way forward.
What HL did was condemn us to the terrible fate of spectacle based corridor shooters.
@@egoalter1276 Now replay Half-Life on normal difficulty instead of hard and rethink this
@@critlv972 It is not about difficulty, its about a shit weapon lineup, poor enemy variety, bland encounter design, godawful level design, obnoxious sound design and floaty controls. Goldsource took IdTech3, and made it feel bad to move around it, which is an achievement.
Can people just stop comparing doom and halo they are not similar games they are both made to provide different experiences and if halo popularized cover based shooters then doom 2016 led to a surge of indie throwback shooters.
they are only compared because they are both arena shooters but yeah the comparison is dumb
@@cheesenibbla8339 or green armored guys with guns. That are the only similarities
@Kunal Ojha. Halo CE drew a lot of inspiration from classic Doom in terms of its gameplay loop, so it's actually pretty fair to compare the two, though I agree with you that they both provide different experiences, as Halo CE is heavily story driven, but uses its gameplay as a medium through which to tell that story, while Doom aims to be a fun gameplay experience first, with any deeper story being more of a secondary consideration.
@@TruePacifist201 from cranking in thousands of hours across the halo franchise and almost as much in various doom games, the only REAL comparison that is made is like what we said; they are both arena shooters. For example, both games' combat in singe player and multiplayer include:
fair starts (players spawn with the same gear)
powerups and items spawn in the level, usually in the middle to keep it fair
a specific "meta" meaning that certain weapons are always used better in different types of fights
various movement mechanics that are unorthodox/untold to the player(Doom has strafe running for fastest movement on ground, Halo has grenade jumps and weapon bounces)
asymmetric level design (yes the halo franchise has symmetrical maps but the asymmetric ones are usually the fan favorites)
@@TruePacifist201 Bungie said themselves that Halo's gameplay and look was influenced by Marathon with no mention of Doom.
It's kinda strange how they are critical of Halo as today Halo is probably the strongest carrier of the arena shooter multiplayer out there (and I say that as someone who loved Unreal 2004 and played it for many many years).
Hehe, still play ut2004, incredible game
@@nineonine9082 Oh, there's still players? That's cool! Even for the bigger maps?
@@torb-no Epic recently killed the master server, so sadly game is pretty damn dead, but I heard there is a fan master server, not sure how well it is doing, but I still play single player instant action, invasion rpg.
I agree with a lot of your points against Mayo and DJ's assessment of Halo, like how Halo isn't strictly a cover-based shooter and that the speed of a given game is relative to it's gameplay, but I completely disagree with the view you present that the modern Doom games are some how only Doom games on face value. No, it doesn't just take fast movement, no reloading and hoards of enemies to make a Doom game- the original Doom's (1 & 2) were designed around resource management and orthogonally differentiated enemies that had completely different ways of moving around the environment and attacking the player, you are constantly thinking to yourself when playing through the OG Dooms "what weapons do I have at my disposal? How much ammo do I have for each of them? Which of them would be best used against the current combination of enemies in this specific environment I'm currently fighting in?"
This thought process is directly carried over into the modern Doom games making them a true evolution of the originals. All the mechanical editions in Eternal are tied to resource management; now, instead of just asking "what weapons do I have?", you have to take your weapon mods into consideration and decide whether to focus down certain enemies with specific mods or focus on using more broadly applicable mods to wipe out hoards of enemies. Or, you could forget about mods entirely and focus on bursting enemies down with quick switch combos, but if you chose to do that you'll burn through your ammo and will need to chainsaw an enemy to re-fill. But the chainsaw itself is a piece of resource management as it only recharges one pip of fuel over a prolonged time period- so if you are caught without chainsaw fuel after whiffing a bunch of shots on a high priority target, you are left hopping and dashing around the arena trying to either find a fuel canister or simply trying to survive. Movement itself is an extension of the resource management focused gameplay of the OG Dooms given that your double jump only resets if you either ground yourself or swing off of monkey bars in the environment, the double dash resets on a timer and will likewise only recharge if you are grounded and the super shotgun's meat-hook is put on a cool down timer after use.
Along with all this innovation on the OG Doom formula more direct comparisons between new Doom and it's predecessors can be made- the base combat shotgun is still the work-horse weapon of the sandbox and is useful for clearing hordes of fodder enemies throughout the campaign, the minigun retains it's high stun chance from the original games allowing the player to stun lock enemies like Cacodemons, Archviles and Hell knights, many enemies themselves operate similarly to their original incarnations but have now been modernised (e.g: the Pinky still charges at the player but now has frontal armour incentivising dodging it's charge and shooting it in the back) etc.
All in all I think this is a great video that combats the view held by some in the Doom community that Halo is just a watered down arena shooter, but I just disagreed with your assessment of the modern Doom games being Doom games in name alone. In fact, the only franchise I can think of that has games under it's umbrella that don't play like an evolution of it's previous instalments is Halo.
Addendum: Doom 3 does exist so the Doom franchise has had a sequel that didn't evolve it's signature gameplay, but 2016 and Eternal most definitely do.
I think he meant more so how it feels to play new doom. It does feel a bit similar but at its core it is so drastically different in gameplay
I'd say it's a fair criticism though, in that while it innovates on the ideas of the orignal Doom games, it plays more like Brutal Doom than actual original Doom. To me, classic doom is all about speed and weapons management, yes, but within the limits of its sandbox. The limiting factors such as a lack of mouselook and verticality and the very specific functionalities of each individual weapon all come together to create that feeling of a classic boomer shooter to me. That isn't to say I don't absolutely fuckin love the new Doom games, but to say they haven't caved to new trends such as enhanced mobility, modification trees, and softcore rpg elements is to ignore the effects of the modern game design landscape. I don't think I would go as far as to say that Doom is only Doom in name, but, it's definitely Doom with the caveat of modern accessibility.
@@freddiefletcher2497 this man never reads books
Here's the thing though, in classic Doom, combat and exploration are always intertwined. But in '16 and Eternal, combat and exploration are mostly kept separate.
In classic Doom, your combat resources ONLY come from exploration, with the exception of some hitscanner ammo. If you're hurt, your only choice is to look around, and you'll probably have to do that in the middle of an ongoing fight. Even if you're safe and exploring in an empty room, you never know when a single Hell Knight is going to peek around a corner and ruin your quiet time. You're always exploring and always ready to fight, if you're not currently fighting in the first place.
Modern Doom doesn't really have this dynamic, though. Most fighting is done in dedicated arenas that only serve a combat purpose. Enemies are your best source of health and armor, which often leads to situations where you don't explore a room's goodies until after the fighting is over. Plus, enemies rarely surprise you while you're exploring, so you can relax as you search around. Ever had a moment where you realize you missed a Quad Damage until AFTER a fight? Happens to me all the time!
Have you ever played a Devil May Cry game? I'd check out DMC5, it's amazing. I bring this up because in terms of structure, Doom '16 and Eternal are far, far more similar to first-person DMC games than they are to classic Doom. The segregated combat and traversal, the bevy of RPG elements, the glorious freedom of movement -- that's all DMC, not Doom.
I'm moreso in the camp that Doom 2016 and Eternal have more in common with Quake than the original Doom games. I mean hell Quad Damage was originally a Quake power up. The newer Doom games feel more like an evolution of Quake's gameplay formula over Doom's. The devs themselves have even admitted that they also drew heavily upon Quake for Doom 2016/Eternal, not just classic Doom.
The fart E1M1 parody + the Doom gameplay fucking broke me, lmao.
As much as I like Under The Mayo, his thoughts on other games is rather questionable. Haven’t watched DJ Peach Cobbler that much, so dunno bout him. Their takes on Halo is similar to how Upper Echelon, Skill Up and Connor Shaw made bad takes on DOOM Eternal.
If ya ask me, Halo is basically a pedestal of the FPS genre, on the same level as DOOM, Quake, Half-Life and a few others. These 90s DOOM boomers need to get off their high horse for once.
I used to like mayo but now he just seems like someone with a short attention span. The only games he praises are fast paced games like doom and even hates on really popular games like alien isolation and God of war 2018
@@friendlyreaper9012 I think he also made a review on CyberPunk 2077 and someone called him out on it coz his review wasn’t that good, I think.
@@friendlyreaper9012 i was truly disappointed when he played Devil May Cry 5 first and then said he didnt care about the story.
It was the last game in the series so ofc no one would understand the game without playing atleast 3 first.
But I still watch his vids time to time to see his takes.
The important point to make is whether you're a PC only player or not. Halo was revolutionary... If you were a console player. To a PC only player, it didn't have as much to offer. Correct me if I'm wrong but the combat system: melee, nade and gunfire design was based around controller use. Same with regen health and 2 weapon limit. If you only use mouse and keyboard, that offers very little.
For context, I was a PC only player from 2002 - 2007. I haven't played PC since then
@@purebaldness I play both PC and console and was pleased to hear that MCC was coming onto Steam. I also pre-ordered Halo Infinite on Steam.
"Too easy to predict" shows major elite strafing like a god
I really appreciate the part where you point out that Halo wasn’t the game that lead shooters into an ultra linear set-piece driven wasteland. The original trilogy as well as ODST and Reach (and even part 4&5 to some extent) we’re also at so focused on providing a sandbox that let you do pretty much anything you could come up with within the campaign levels, and took the resurrections off completely in multiplayer thanks to custom games and forge.
Also I find the idea that Halo is outdated or no longer relevant outright laughable considering how there is literally no other FPS game that has as hard of a commitment to its sandbox. There are tons of games like Call of Duty, or Doom, or even Battlefield, but Halo, especially the original trilogy, still sits in a unique spot that hasn’t really been explored anywhere else in the gaming landscape. Actually as a huge fan of the original Halo trilogy, I found the 2010s to be extremely disappointing for shooters as there was nothing that really filled the void Halo left. Doom was great but it was very different and didn’t scratch the same itch, CoD was never that similar and while I liked 4 and World At War the rest of the series seemed to get worse with each game, Titanfall was unique and has its qualities but I honestly never really took to its gameplay (I don’t think it’s bad, just not my cup of tea), and Halo’s own sequels developed under 343 at the time abandoned the original formula to chase trends.
Hopefully Infinite can get the series back on track and show the fools who honestly believe this ground breaking and unique series has no place in gaming so future just how wrong they are, as if just looking at the original games didn’t already do that.
I mean, nobody ALONE in particular can ruin an industry- its always a community effort. Half Life showed things that got dumbed down and misused in other games, so did Halo and other games that got popular for a long time, and *that* caused the abundance of terrible blurry grey cover-based 1st and 3rd person shooters that claim that they have variety, yet the only optimal strategy is to use the most op guns, disregarding anything else. The games that *inspired* those who misused their legacy should not be blamed for someone else's fuck ups
One could argue that Doom, especially eternal also, like Halo, sits in a unique spot- allbeit a different one
Well the fact that infinite died so fast proofs how outdated the series has become. Games have to compete nowadays and halo cant keep up.
@@Torbintime I was just thinking how this community loves to talk about how their games arent outdated but I'll still get videos from 6 years ago recommended to me about people complaining about halos design and gameplay being boring, stale, or just straight up copied from another game(COD) which proves to me that if you are copying other games (especially if according to the fans, the gameplay isn't outdated) that it's outdated. Thank you for reading if you got this far and don't take me to seriously, I've only played about 10 minutes of any halo game and got bored instantly.
@@Torbintime it's not the game play that killed infinite. Most people love the gameplay it was fun. What killed infinite was how progression was handled and it was bare bones on launch. It didn't have coop didn't have forge. It failed cause it's missing what made halo halo.
343 keeps missing the mark cause they keep giving out barely complete Halo's and the one time they did with 4 it was a copy of call of duty
@@Torbintime They couldn't keep up with the whole battle pass game and that's why a lot of players left. These days releasing a multiplayer FPS without having ~10k slaves to push fortnightly freemium content down players' throats is a suicidal task.
I don't think either of them mentioned how doom 4 was almost a muddy brown military shooter with coiver based mechanics. That screams which game was more influential in the changing shooter market than anything else. Halo has always been it's own unique thing no one has really been able to replicate.
Also, I agree the main reason FPS games changed was not the evolution of the mechanics themselves, but the ability to tell cohesive stories in the games. Games "slowed down" because you can't read a book in a windstorm.
Slight side note but Under The Mayo has always presented his criticism with heavy boomer vibes. He just seems to not like the stuff that is different from what he grew up playing.
A lot of doom fans have some sort of superiority complex about their game. they think their all that cause it has a ton of violence/blood and loud music. don't get me wrong, its an amazing game and i love doom old and new, but they need to stop comparing their game to everyone else's and have some self awareness for a minute. kinda like halo fans now that i think about it 🤔
That's true for most fanbases
This coming from they guys commenting on the video about how classic Halo is so great.
Actually I made a meme with you in the soy wojack spot and me in the gigachad spot so I’m objectively correct
If I want tons of blood and gore, Fallout and the Space Marine game can sate that need.
@@e.l.i8993 100% this. It gets to the point where it's difficult for me to enjoy what I used to sometimes
In my opinion not all games should be the same formula. Don’t we want variety? Yes trends will come and go but we can all play the games we love. Halo can be Halo. Titanfall can be Titanfall. Doom can be Doom. And battle royals can go die in a ditch. If we changed Halo to what these guys want it would just be Doom with a different overlay.
I don't think those guys wanted Halo to change, but rather not want Halo to change every shooter around it, which it did.
Edit: just like CoD4 changed every project into a military shooter
Then Overwatch turned every project into a class based shooter
Then Fortnite... You get the picture
@@purebaldness but that’s the thing, that’s out of anyone’s controls but the customers, if it sells crazy, of course people will try to emulate it. It’s not their fault they redefined the genre or have it life.
@@pian-0g445 It's not even a matter of blaming anyone. It's just the nature of the business and even art to a degree. Important work influences everything around it.
Just because I can _understand_ why everything took influence from CoD4 and Halo 1-3, doesn't mean I must _appreciate_ it.
@@purebaldness I agree though I will say, people not understanding a work and trying to implement features haphazardly into their own, is not the fault of the original work.
@@johnjohnson6142 Yeah, it's not PUBG's fault that DICE wasted resources putting a BR into BFV, or Overwatch's fault that Black Ops 4 wasted half of it's dev cycle becoming a hero shooter play-testers hated rather than a CoD game.
I find it funny people throw the blame at Halo for "ruining" FPS's because a lot of games after it tried to copy what made it good and failed in large numbers, and or just said COD and call it a day. Have we forgotten DOOM did this in 93? Half-Life in 98? There's an entire section of games literally called Doom clones FFS. Yet nope, it's Halo's fault somehow. I've seen big RUclipsrs say this too, Civvie for example. They all fail to realize it's nothing more than trend following. You can't blame Doom or Half-Life or Halo for the shit that was shat out to try and take a piece of the pie they created, blame the developers behind said shit for being poor at game design.
Spittin
Sometimes, when you least expect, the RUclips Algorithm throws you an absolute gem such as this. Just subscribed.
Imo you should have focused on DJ peach as underthemayos is entirely a opinion piece and a personal story.
Yea exactly what I thought, Mayo definitely stated he was going off emotion.
Doesn't shield him from being told he's wrong.
@@sithisdawnsend2730 i feel like you should watch his response video.
Opinion pieces can still receive counter-arguments, and in fact it's a sign of healthy discussion. Academics have been doing it for centuries.
@@QuintessentialWalrus I agree, this was commented like directly after the video but in retrospect and after seeing Mayo's response this is a pretty shit comment.
But I will say Mayo's focuse is on how halo ruined shooters for him and how that effected his life when halo realised (see he use of past tense) where as DJ is saying halo can't exist in the modern gaming landscape and I feel putting them in the same video could send the message that mayo is saying some of the stuff DJ is saying or vice versa. So I feel he should have had two distinct sections or videos about each.
I had originally responded to the mayo video in a comment and it's nice to see you tackle it. The main thing that bothered me (as detailed in my comment) was definitely Mayo constantly pushing the idea that Halo is a cover shooter and I'm glad you covered how flawed that understanding was
Being misinformed is kinda Mayo's schtick if we're being honest. I've watched too many of his videos and he struggles to make arguments that hold up to scrutiny. Sometimes I wonder if people only listen to him just because he SOUNDS confident :/
My biggest issue is that he thinks that other games followed suit when it came to cover as if Halo set the precedent. Just thinking logically. What would most people do while getting shot? Just stand there? Should FPS AI just keep running and gunning at all times wtf.
That's the problem I have with his videos. If a video game doesn't meet his standards, then he'll go on a rant on why the game is terrible and believes that it's ruining other games like how God of War (2018) ruined Resident Evil Village.
@@JLacay Nostalgia is a toxic thing.
but halo is a cover shooter
The Chad face in master chief's helmet is now my Canon face for the chief.
"halo doesn't have movement"
Clearly he hasn't met mint blitz
Clearly you haven't Watch Sylar's Doom Slayer. He's way faster, accurate and insane Tekken-like combos. He's a lore-accurate Doom Slayer.
ruclips.net/video/lhNQ1m5zZz0/видео.html
@@inixi8ocelot
Never said doom did not have movement. But this video does nothing to invalidate what mint has done.
Conclusion, both doom and halo have movement, to varying degrees yes, but movement nonetheless
@@CreeperDude-cm1wv If there would be a DEATH BATTLE between Sylar's Doom Slayer and Mint's MC, 100% sure Sylar's gonna win. MC in Infinite is just a nerfed Doom Slayer from Eternal.
@@inixi8ocelot
Yeah I'm not saying chief could beat D-slayer
But how does what sylar does invalidate what mint blitz does?
Playing Halo CE with anniversary graphics is heresy
>>>Analysing>Data accurate>Have a nice day
“Halo not like doom eternal so halo bad”
They clearly have no understanding of Halo. The comments about movement got a chuckle out of me. Halo has quite complex movement if you actually take the time to learn all the tricks. You need to be good with the character and the maps in order to be efficient.
What Mayo and DJ both absolutely left out too (or maybe just didn't bother to do their own research), was that Halo was going to be a Mac Computer exclusive, right before MS bought it.Then, it was going to be a PC exclusive, even creating an Nvidia GPU commercial that never aired, because Bill Gates wanted it on Xbox. Bungie didn't change movement or gameplay to match a console; they just moved their work from Mac/PC to console.
I can sum it all up in one sentence.
Classic Halo's gameplay felt "deliberate" while modern shooters feel "twitchy".
I agree with most of this video. I have to point out that saying Halo saved shooters is a bit of a stretch. Okay it's a massive stretch. FPS was doing very well at that time. Half-Life reinvented shooters, then we got Far Cry, Doom 3, TimeSplitters, fear, etc. I do agree that shooters were going the linear scripted route but that is by no means a bad thing. As I've said for years, shooters learned the wrong things from Half-Life. Plus there were tons of FPS games that weren't linear or scripted. Half-Life started a trend more than Halo and just like Halo, it was blamed for a lot of bad games.
I also want to point out that they definitely understood Halo for Halo 5. At least, if we're talking about Multiplayer. The rest of the game doesn't exist.
Boomer shooters are definitely a trend. There's been so many of them. Dusk, Ultrakill, Prodeus, Dread Templar, etc. They obviously aren't AAA popular but only a few games can be. These games have a huge influence on the FPS market space on PC. I'm only hoping we'll get that same sort of resurgence with Half-Life/F.E.A.R. style games soon.
What are the wrong lessons that the shooter marketplace learned from Half-Life?
@@matt0198922 hes made videos on it. How about you watch them or ask him on Twitter directly.
@@omni6982 Lol what the fuck are you, his secretary or something? He posted a RUclips comment; I'm replying to it.
I've seen many of Jarek's videos as I'm a subscriber of his. I can't recall every point he's ever made. He can either reply with an answer/link to his video, or just ignore it.
Either way, I'm sure he doesn't need you directing traffic for him. And lol at the Twitter thing. I don't have/use Twitter and I never will.
Oh, and if you want to respond to me, hit me up on Snap...because apparently replying on the same platform is out of style.
@@matt0198922 Basically civvie 11 and other Id fanboys hates half life cause it made people stop making doom clones....
@@MILDMONSTER1234 I don't know if this joke flew from my head but civvie never hated half life
DJ Cobbler is one of those people who say that F.E.A.R is shit and old because of it's slow motion combat.
You know that these people also claim that half life killed fps because it has a design that doesnt revolve around looking for keys for 10 minutes?
Halflife did kill fps. It is a terrible game, and I hate how popular it was.
Mayo in general has shit takes, and I'm glad there are more videos calling him out.
As much as I enjoy the new DOOM games, they were so successful because they aimed to do something different, and it didn't aim to "correct the genre". It's almost like different games aim to do different things, and be different experiences.
If we had every game just blatantly copy DOOM (like Shadow Warrior 3 did from what I've seen), the FPS landscape would be stale, and I say this even as someone who dislikes cover shooters. They aren't for me, but that doesn't mean their existence is needless, people enjoy them, and they provide completely different gameplay experiences!
Great video!
Shadow warrior 3 is a good game
@@madmonty4761 okay? I never said it wasn't? Bring something meaningful to the conversation please.
@@taxisalad maybe dont act like a dickhead and i will
This video was recommended to me, and honestly I was really interested in what you had to say. My video was more about making people understand why people would feel like Halo ruined FPS games. Most of the "criticisms" I levied at the game were worded in the past tense, because they reflected how I felt 20 years ago when I first played it. And seeing nearly every mainstream FPS release in the decade and half after being catered towards slow console play was depressing. Just look at the gameplay difference between AVP2 in 2001 and AVP in 2010. The discussion around the topic is really interesting. However, you couldn't even make it past the intro of your video without debasing yourself with personal insults, referring to DJ with terms like "cuck soy boy". For as many issues as I have with Halo's influence over the industry, I wouldn't insult the fans of the game. I'd suggest taking a different approach if you'd actual like to engage in a conversation about this. Good luck to you and your channel, and I'm sure we're both hoping for a fun time with Halo Infinite. Later.
Hi, thanks for the response. Contrary to what one may think, I do not hate your original video. I wanted to use it as a a catalyst for discussion, because I thought it would be interesting to consider some of the common perceptions surrounding the game. Also, the part referring to DJ as a 'cuck soy boy' was not intended as an earnest insult, it was a reference to a point in his own video. I don't wish for it to be misconstrued as a personal attack and I'm sorry if it was perceived as such. Thanks again for watching, good luck with your channel and goodbye.
@@ShreddedNerd Alright. If it's a reference to his video that's fair game. But that's dangerous territory to anyone who may be watching this having not seen 1 or both of the videos, especially since your video will get picked up by the algorithm. I have not seen DJ's video so that line comes across very badly. Thanks for responding.
Considering DJ loves to make political jokes I don't see what the problem here is.
@@saisameer8771 the only problem is, that all parties don’t quite understand how they put their content out. So one can misconstrue a cheeky insult. At the end of the day I think everyone is trying to be fair and argue their points quite well. That’s just how I see it.
@@skylartaylor4493 DJ makes the viewer feel stupid a lot of times , constantly uses matters to make you feel uneducated and dumb for not caring about something.
I like some of his videos but i hate how he thinks everyone should be a hardass while engaging in any type of entertainment
6 months later -- "Here's why Aiming Down Sights in video games is SHIT"
*cut to Doom as the prime example of why ADS isn't necessary*
smells like hypocrisy, don't you think?
How so?
@@ShreddedNerd It just feels like you "have become the very thing you swore to destroy" in the last video about ADS mechanics. In this video at 3:52 you're commenting on how you don't like everyone using Doom as the basis for every single criticism of another game, yet at 9:30 in your most recent video you go straight to Doom as the first example of a game that doesn't require ADS. It feels inconsistent at best and hypocritical at worst that you disregard complaints you made in previous videos for the sake of making a point.
And while I have your attention, I'd just like to suggest that you could have mentioned CS:GO and/or Valorant in that last video if you wanted to make your point stronger. I can live with an oversimplification of CoD's mechanics, but leaving one of the most popular competitive FPS games out of the conversation felt like a serious blunder. It felt like you were saying that all tactical shooters have a low skill ceiling when you said that less movement means less skill is required, and it seemed more like an attack on Tactical shooters as a whole instead of an attack on a game mechanic.
Even if you want to say that CoD can't be compared to CS:GO, Rainbow 6 certainly can be. If you had elaborated on how R6 and Valorant both gave you the same team-based characters-with-specific-abilities combat system, with the main difference being the removal of ADS, you could have made the point that tactical games without ADS can still be as popular as the ones that do have it.
TL;DR
You went straight to Doom in your most recent video even though you stated that you hate when other people take that path, and you didn't even bother to tap into the gold mine that CS:GO and Valorant present as an proof that ADS isn't necessary to make a good game. (yes I know that Valorant technically does have ADS, but it's similar to Halo in that no one uses it because "hipfire" is highly accurate in those games)
First of all, PC gaming was in a dark place at the turn of the millennium due to piracy. That's why consoles became the lead platform for shooters in the first place - and that's the reason why Halo had to reinvent the genre and adapt to console controls. Second, before Halo, most shooters wanted to be like Half Life - even Doom 3.
Sadly Arena shooters fanboys have deluded themselves into not wanting to see the truth
@@dc7981 but halo is an arena shooter lol
@@markiss69 I would say it’s something different.
@@deriznohappehquite it's not a classic style of arena game like quake, but it still is an arena game.
@D C i am seeing something i haven’t seen since the era of Doom Clones.... people standing up to Arena shooter fanboys.... this is giving me hope... maybe one day... fans will stand up to System Shock style fanboys the time they Ruined Prey and Infinite because “movie/story telling is baaaad video games don’t need meaning!” type of nonsense... maybe i’m grasping straws but this is giving me hope
Halo was important, no question. Not sure it deserves the title of genre saver though.
Never owned an original Xbox, was playing Metroid Prime, and before that Duke Nukem 3d. Of course Goldeneye and Perfect Dark deserve credit for keeping console shooters relevant, even if I never owned an N64.
I agree with DJ for the most part. Halo should remain slow. If that’s not enough for adrenaline junkie players then who cares because we don’t need them
You also missed the part where he stated that the reason the new halos never did well is because they left their origin to the dismay of many fans.
Nah the part about the montages is so accurate why does every video about doom have some montage to introduce it
lmaooooo
This is probably the best argument for classic halo to ever exist up until this point, bravo.. There's some quotable stuff in here, and that doesn't just apply to one topic..
one of my favorite "movement options" in combat evolved is to use a hunter's shield bash to jump away
I love how everyone calls Halo slow, while my go-to tactic in every one of them is moon-jumping into the middle of the action and headbutting anyone resilient enough to survive my two mag dumps and half a dosen grenades, never taking cover once.
"Halo is slow" Me in new Halo using repulsor to move to the second end of the map in less than 2 seconds
Eventhough I fully agree with you that DJ Peach Cobbler is wrong in this regard, I still respect and appreciate his Halo video because he sounds like a guy that would ACTUALLY change his mind if he is PROVEN wrong, which is, well, a rarity these days.
He wont though, he'll make a video of him sitting in a low light room while he says large words and then laughs.
he's the guy that bashed Fallout: New Vegas for having both factions be bad guys in their own ways while not acknowledging Mr. House or Yes Man because "nobody plays their quest lines anyways" (or something along those lines)
in other words, he was salty because the world was nuanced and there was no black-and-white good vs. bad situation
@@Mate_Antal_Zoltan this is a common take among people with DJ cobblers political leanings (leftoids). a work of art to them is only as valuable as its support for their own ideology. if it doesnt portray them as flawless heroes and the right as pure evil monsters then it's "centrist propaganda". they basically think that artists have an obligation to epically save the world by making leftist propaganda for them and anything else is double plus no good.
@@ZeSgtSchultz nah he actually ended up taking back what he said in his H:I review
@@Mate_Antal_Zoltan i cant find that video which one was it?
Halo didn’t ruin shooters it revolutionized them from becoming a bland mess and made console shooters fun. Also halo is slow? Please in halo 3 I charge into battles and I feel like a total BA taking down scarabs and brutes jumping all over the place.
Halo is slow compared to a decent amount of shooters like Quake, Doom, Wolfenstein, COD, old and modern, but hey there’s absolutely nothing wrong with slow
play halo CE with someone who has over 200 hours in the game, youll die three times in the first minute depending on the map
@@gottaproxy8826 how do I ay with myself?
Cheesepuffyes try
Playing it on legendary
We will see
@@cringekiller348 Ye legendary difficulty is so intense and stressful (in a fun way) and it feels there’s so much going on in combat
But in terms of stuff like movement speed, gun fire rate, reload speed, weapon swapping speed, speed of gaining health back, enemy projectile speed, verticality, how quick u get from one combat area to the next, how quick enemies come at you, and how long enemies take to die, it is on the slower side of FPS combat, which I like
The idea that all FPS games have to fit one design is so silly. And the funniest thing is that Mayo also talks about disliking ultra kill a lot which is basically a much faster, more creative Doom Eternal style system. It is okay for games to be different than one another lol
exactly. video games are art, a way to express creativity and to immerse other people into your world. if every game was the same then video games would be redundant and boring. if you dont like it, dont play it.
If Under the Mayo thinks that Halo is a tactical cover shooter, he'd probably have an aneurysm if someone showed him a real tactical shooter, like ARMA or Squad.
Doom Eternal easily became my favorite game after my first playthrough, but having played through Halo 1 through 3, I never once wished it was like Doom. Maybe movement speed just to traverse levels faster when there were no enemies, but it is unfair to compare the games when the style of FPS is so drastically different.
To be honest, having a "slower" gameplay is actually kind of appealing. You are a 7 foot tall armored giant, your advantage is being tanky as fuck.
Sniper jackals have entered the chat
Fun fact the beam rifle isn't even hit scan it's just a fast projectile
DJ Peach cobbler made a followup video to his "Identity Crisis: why halo isn't infinite" also his channel is amazing and anyone should consider checking it out
I kinda indirectly ripped on Doom Eternal in terms of player expression. It seems to me like every top Doom Eternal player plays the same way. Fire one shot from Weapon A, hot swap to weapon B and fire, then C and fire and then back to A. It's cool to watch the first time you see it... then you see thats just the "best" way to play the game. By forcing the player to play a certain way you're pigeonholing their strategy... which limits your options... which, by these people's logic is bad game design.
actually in ce if your shields are low and if any elites are nearby they will rush you
That fast vs slow argument has always annoyed me a lot from the beginning. Like.....what is it about speed that makes it "irrelevant"??
Love this video.
Never expected anyone to make a response to UndertheMayo's video....but boy am i glad you did, Bravo good sir!
I was used to be fan of mayo but his recent videos just made me dislike him.
Thank god, that guy is so arrogant.
I unsubscribed from him a month ago and I feel free as a bird.
This is why Halo fell from grace, they gave the IP to some randoms who don't even know what made Halo, HALO. 343 deserves everything they are getting, I hope Xbox decides to transfer the IP to some other developing company.
It isn't addressed in this video, and presumably not mentioned in the videos this is responding to, but one of the most baffling aspects of the old "Halo killed my precious boomer shooters!! >:(" hysteria you'd see back in the day (and still to this day) is the complete disregard for the vehicle driving aspect of Halo. All these arguments about movement speed or weapon limitations, and yet they would always just completely ignore an aspect of Halo's design that comprises almost half its gameplay, and how even just the fact the game is balanced around having vehicles means that of course your on-foot speed is going to be slower. So baffling in retrospect, to the point where I feel that most of those people never even played the game for more than 10 minutes.
Damn, there was no need for such a big channels such as yours to absolutely destroy those tiny other channels. Have some pitty for the ones who aren't blessed by the RUclips algorithm, smh my head
Hehe smh my shm
Under the mayo has no taste, I'm just glad that someone else knows this
My response about God of War
Slow? But you can sprint in the game, people loved Dark Souls for it’s slow gameplay. Weapon combos? Discover combos with the many runic attacks, and upgrades.
I’ve seen both of those videos and they actually hurt so much to listen to. Praise for making a response to them.
7:47 When people talk like this, about "skill", it's clear that they have a very specific style of play which is only compatible with certain games. They mostly want to mindlessly mash through a game with muscle memory, that "fun zone" they mentioned. It's a fine way to create a power fantasy, but I feel it gets stale quickly due as its averse to creating new situations, or anything that your gamer hands would find unfamiliar.
After watching DJ's Doom Eternal review, I'm even more confident that this is the case for him. His whole thesis is that games should punish the player for not playing in a pre-determined correct way, that there should be a veneer of choice that ultimately has a single correct answer.
Console limitations is a really lazy and idiotic complaint considering Halo 1 was made for the Original Xbox which was very close to a high end PC for the time.
Halo ce anniversary graphics: meh they alright
Halo 2 anniversary graphics:🔥😎🥵
i actually agree with alot of what you said,only a few issues
few things (that i remembered)
> 3:36 most of 1-plutonia (other than sigil) is closer to 2016 and eternal than 3 almost every-time (64 and sigil is in the middle,being relitively slower paced,and scarier,but not a full "horror" (never found DOOM 3 scary) game like DOOM3),especially once you're used to megawad difficulty (DOOM 1,2 and 64 are really easy once you've dealt with 5 archviles at once,or double cyberdemons)
> 12:20 BLOOD does let you bypass hitscanners with the plasma gun or flare and shotgun alt-fires if you do want to go on a rampage,blood i think,sort of fluctuates between sort of 2 "extremes" in its gameplay,you can set traps carefully,or play it like DOOM if you're good enough.
>21:45 2016 feels more like classic DOOM than halo 4 does to halo CE,DOOM at its most basic level, is big guns with no reloads,lots of big demons,and fast and smooth movement (this is especially true after shooters stopped trying to copy DOOM),2016 keeps all of this core stuff,but changes everything else,making it "feel like DOOM".
and as many said infinite should look at DOOM 2016 and see that older styles are not bad,and should still be explored.
>25:22 wish that made halo 4 any better,but all the good mods are for halo 1-reach.
these are tiny issues though and overall good video,changed parts of my own opinion.
12:20 if you want to get technical Halo straight up doesn't have hitscan, the engine doesn't support it so weapons like the sniper, particle beam rifle, and spartan laser simply have very fast projectiles. The Halo 2 BR is commonly said to be hitscan but you actually still have to lead your shots.
I actually hate when people forget that DOOM 2016 and Eternal play and feel completely different. 2016 one is at its core "Doom, but you can jump and brutality mod is already installed". It doesn't really reimagines anything, it's just puts older Doom in new beautiful wrap and asks you to have fun with it. It doesn't force you to do anything fancy.
Eternal on the other hand makes Doom feel like Quake. You are moving, quick-switching, hitting weak spots, monitoring your cooldowns, making decisions about your positioning and etc. Gameplay is tight, you are meant to master mechanics and learn how devs want you to play their game. in Doom 2016 quick-switching was a cool trick, just like it was in original games. In Eternal it's game mechanic, like it's in Quake
@@thebigsam DOOM 2016 has alot of the tricks of eternal,just 2016 doesn't make you need to do them,2016 was more so getting zoomers (especially console players) accustomed to boomer shooters
there are halo 4 mod called refolw that change gamplay in more fun way
DooM & Halo: Has these kinds of videos
Quake, who made fps an actual thing to break away from "doom clones": *sits in silence*
We need a new quake game
Quake will have its return to the spotlight. In time. It’s work is not entirely forgotten
Great video. Even though I dont like to give too much blame to one person, I feel Yathzee was one of the first big people who introduced this wrong notion that Halo "ruined" FPS games and many other now have this idea like ingrained in their minds. I also find interesting how many of this "boomer shooter" fans tend to either being indifferent or straight up hate multiplayer and considered a crutch, which like goes against anything the numbers of people who play say. Hell, almost every single old FPS game had multiplayer.
It wasn't just yahtzee. It was an entire generation of old pc elitist fucks who have been whining about "consolised" games (not just shooters) for the last 20 years.
@@flokivalhalla1439 Even if you don't like them, I mean, they had a point. 2 weapon limit, regen health etc isn't always going to appeal to players that enjoyed multi-weapon management and item control, as well as how said items influenced how maps were played. What worth is there in camping at a vantage point when all the armour and major health pickups were elsewhere on the map?
@@flokivalhalla1439 bruh just stfu
@@colbyboucher6391 Just like he said in the video that’s no halos fault, counter strike, and linear shooters like half life is the main reason pc shooters started to slow down.
@@Mi-Alternar_por_Nathaniel cope.
"Enemies never sneak up on you from behind."
The dude's clearly never played Legendary mode lmao, the enemy AI really shines when the player can't one-shot all of them
5:13 Sprint is actually in CS, it's the default movement type, with an option to walk slower so your footsteps are silent.
thats combat striding REAL
Mayo and Cobbler are part of a group I like calling "Doom Cultists" where they get so blindsided by the nostalgia that they end up ignoring anything that could even put a dent on Doom or any other old Id soft-where game's reputation. Doesn't matter how smart they are and avoid those pitfalls in every other subject, if its about FPSs they'll end up being super ignorant and never get them started on Halo.
And essentially what these two guys and many other tried to do was compare Halo:CE specifically to a old shooter like doom instead of its own product, then start getting mad about it. Which feels like the equivalent of buying the Sims and then expecting it to be like Command and Conquer.
I mean, I remember someone else talking about how the original STALKER caused long term problems in anti-aliasing development that still seen today, which I have no idea how true it is. Yet that same person also stated they still love the game to death and glad it was ever made because all the other good it did. Which I'd pay good money to see one of those Doom Cultists say something like that about Halo.
Or better yet see them admit a flaw about Doom, I hadn't play much of the original doom mostly due to not remembering to get my own copy but I do remember the fricken keycard hunting ruining the flow for me. I mean, I don't have enough evidence that doom caused the "Hunt the Key" trend that plagued FPSs a little after Doom came out, it could have been a consequence, and its not even the worst. Jedi Knight 2 deer mother loving Katarn, that was the worse example of "hunt the keycard" I've seen despite not having a single literal Keycard in its first levels.
Serious Sam may found a good solution to it by throwing combat at you when you "collect the key" and just integrating it into the flow, but also I noticed that stupid trend slowed down after Halo Combat Evolved (Although, again, that's what I noticed, the game that that actually stopped it could be something else). Which is funny to me because Halo came out later in the same year as Serious Sam, and both found two different solutions to the flow problem "Find the Key" creates.
And what's even funnier is while typing this I realized that Doom: Enteral, out of everything it got rid of from its old design kept the the fricken stupid keycards. WHY? I don't know, but it brought enough bad memories back that I never bought it after seeing that.
If Enteral is good with minimizing the keycards or integrates with the flow of the play well, someone feel free to correct me, actually no, I encourage you to correct me. I might still not play the game, or at least until it gets dirt cheap, but I will stop holding that grudge against it and prevent my bias view from taking over in the future.
Lastly just because I find it funny, while I still love his content, Civvie11 who's entire brand is around old shooters, is a bit a Doom cultist himself (although I can't tell how much is really his thoughts and what is just his exaggerated character played for entertainment), despite the fact he has actually recorded the toxicity that went down at Id software that caused the downfall and reasons for leaving of the original creators and brings it up quite a bit in different videos. .
Halo felt like the original unreal to me when I played it
That itself proves that it's way faster than regular shooters.
Halo has parts that are repetitive and the shotgun is basically a fix all solution for everything besides hunters and vehicles
The original doom also has aspects of sandbox elements aswell, almost to the point I find Halo more familiar than even build engine games which were not even half a decade older than OG doom.
hope they dont find out that i took cover in doom 2016 once
19:16 "And they STILL failed to understand Halo. TWICE."
There's three, actually.
I'm only 14 minutes in and even as a fan of Mayo and an even bigger fan of Doom, you're absolutely demolishing these guys. That's a subscribe from me dawg. Hope to see you online in Infinite.
Oh, and good luck with everything going on in your country right now. Things aren't much better here in the UK but they're REALLY going for it down under by the looks of it.
@@JoeM343 wait, what's the going on?
@@mlarpindarpin4538 Nobody nose
Based
They really lost me when they called Halo a cover shooter lmao. One of the major criticisms of Halo 5's campaign was that it played like a cover shooter due to fast-moving, tracking projectiles being everywhere - in contrast to the earlier games in the series.