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Are the Dutch anti-hierarchy? Reaction!
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- Опубликовано: 7 янв 2022
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The first guy is well known. His name is Maarten van Rossem. Don't be fooled by his appearance. This guy is historian, writer, presenter, professor and specialized in the history and politics of the USA.
When I was in my 4th year at university, there was an interview in the university newspaper with a PhD candidate from China, who had his own experience with this. He recounted how nicely had been received by everybody, had met his daily mentor, had been shown around and introduced to the staff. And how different he had found the atmosphere, how lots of the staff showed interest in his research, how he'd spent time talking everything through at lunch with other PhD researchers but also with all sorts of other staff and they all chimed in with helpful suggestions.
Then he said that after about 3,5 months he was wondering when he was supposed to meet the professor (the head of the research group), so he asked one of the other PhD guys. And then he more or less soiled his pants when it turned out he'd happily been calling the professor "Jan" at lunch twice a week and had regularly been telling him how things were going.
It's very important to show (professional) respect. Showing respect for people doesn't always mean submitting to their hierarchical position. It's important to listen, listening doesn't mean agreeing. Making the coffee doesn't signify obedience, but mutual (respectful) awareness. But if the boss takes an action, then the discussion is finished. You had your chance to make your point and now the decision is history.
You can respect your boss and still ask him to get you a coffee.
So you can continue making money for him.
Very well put!
When I was little, my old granny taught me this: When in doubt, you address everybody as "u" (or "U", if you like). You do not care if they're old or young, you don't care if they're black, white or purple, you do not care even if 'they' are a human or a brick. When in doubt, you call them "u".
At 37, I still think this is sound advice.
Well I mean, if you talk to a brick you might get weird looks from people tho, best to draw a face on it first.
honestly this doesn't really work. The problem is that some people get offended by you using "u", thinking you mean to infer they are old
@@helloitsme7553 that's not true, they'll just say 'zeg maar je' instead.
There is hierarchy in the Netherlands, but socially everyone is equal. So the CEO is the CEO when it comes down to the work, but as a human being he is equal. So when talking business he is the absolutely the boss, but when making small talk, he is just like everyone else.
Everyone being equal (as a human being) goes very deep in Dutch culture, it's a core belief. Doesn't matter who you are, you can be the king or a minimum wage worker, as a human being you are as valuable. People who treat other people like they are less than them, are viewed as arrogant or are even considered outright evil persons and Dutch people will do anything within their power to take them down a notch and teach them a lesson, so they know that they are not better.
Goed verwoord!
Meanwhile, behind the screens, the hierarchy does its job...
It is there, but hidden under the surface, hard as steel, and will deal with everyone who breaks its unwritten laws.
We like to believe in the myth, we cherish it, we advertise it, we propagate it, and we all keep the thin layer of grass alive that covers it. But when you use a metal detector, it goes bezirk. You need sensitive antennas to feel it, because it can twist, not follow logical structures, go deeper than expected...
Even in work related conversations, we’re much less formal in terms of hierarchy. We speak up to our bosses, explain them when we think they are wrong and speak up if we have an idea. I have often told my bosses “off course you can overrule me, but I really believe your idea is wrong and we should do it differently”. Respectfully, accepting they have the final call, but also making very clear I am not just doing it because they suggested it.
This creates mutual respect, assuming you actually have. A point most of the times ;)
@@CobisTaba Precies. Zo zie ik het ook!
But still we as "normal" employees would go into discussion with that CEO if we are not agreeing.
We have a saying in the netherlands" doe maar normaal dan doe je al gek genoeg " wich basically means: act normal, that's crazy enough already. Pretty down to earth, I like it.
I never could think about that it would be different in other countries compared to the Netherlands. I think that I have learned about the very special Dutch hierarchy at the moment that in 2016 I got a new job where at the same week also my new manager started. He already worked for the company for 2 decades, came from Texas and decided to take the job opportunity to work in the new headquarters in Amsterdam. I was new to the company and was working directly under him. My manager was only used to people saying yes and doing what was asked. Now he met me, and basically in the first meeting I already told him that I did not agree with what he asked me to do and that I also would not comply with his request. It would be way smarter to do it such and such way. It would save us all time, and the results would be better. The same afternoon I was called to HR with (and by) my manager where he attempted to tear me a new one, and although HR completely agreed that he is my manager and I should take orders, she also tried to explain together with myself very politely that in the Netherlands it is very normal that if we don't agree with something, we will let you know and show you that a different route might be better for whatever reason. It has taken my manager to 2018 to get used to our ways of working and he actually loves it now. He completely understands and agrees with the fact that people are specialized in certain fields, and that although he is my manager, I am actually the expert in the technical aspects of my job, and I know what I am doing. He completely trusts my instinct and often comes to me for advise / a second pair of eyes on a case.
Mark Rutte (prime minister) spilled his coffee once after which he went to find a mop to clean it himself. The hierarchy is definitely there and most people will change their behavior accordingly. However the idea everybody should be treated equally no matter their position in society is ingrained in the dutch culture (although inequality is still a problem tbh). Acknowledging hierarchy is therefore counterintuitive for most dutch people. The coffee thing was loudly applauded by almost everyone. Looking back at it I think a lot of foreigners would have seen this as a sign of weakness even though dutch people saw it as a sign of strength.
I can't stop but wonder if he would have also cleaned it if there were no cameras or reporters ;) it does suit his act of being the 'ordinary guy'
@@nielsmeijer492 Ik denk oprecht wel dat hij dat zou doen. Ik zou nooit VVD stemmen, en hij heeft heel wat fouten gemaakt maar hij lijkt me een prima gast voor de rest.
But Mark Rutte also wants power over a whole country and locks people up who are against him for good reasons. Even when where right in the law
@@nielsmeijer492 he is acting nice to stay in power
Ik weet dat dat in een ander land niet gebruikelijk is, maar al ben je de premier: je ruimt toch gewoon je eigen rotzooi op? 't Is vrij arrogant een ander te laten komen opdraven omdat jij je koffie niet goed vast had. Laten premiers van andere landen wel hun zooi staan als ze er een bende van maken?😅
A big difference between the Dutch and immigrants is that we think respect should be earned and other cultures think it is a given. So it can happen that a little schoolboy from a different culture tells the teacher that he demands respect. In that case he is in for some lessons in Dutch hierarchy
the dutch hierarchy is like the internet where everybody is a peer, you just have some people with elevated powers that will strike your channel :P
it probably comes from fighting the water, everybody had to help rich and poor.
You don't listen to someone because they are higher up, you listen because they have expertise. The CEO may be your superior, but you listen to the person who knows what they're talking about. The person above just decides go or no go. When you want coffee, you get coffee and ask people if they want something as well. The intern for the CEO and the CEO for the intern, we're just people in that scenario. If you sit and wait you'll leave empty handed.
I'll always call someone 'u' when I don't know them. It's just the polite thing to do. If they're ok with an informal address they will let you know.
'a dog has a boss'
'he/she/they still have to wipe their own ass'
just a couple of things i'd hear everywhere while growing up.
Yes a dog has a boss and you have an employer. Not the same thing at all ... in the Netherlands😉
11:54. Fun fact: I had him as my teacher at uni in 2007/2008. He's hilarious but also quite intimidating. He's also a really big fan of complaining.
Whenever a former student of his comes to De Slimste Mens, they almost always say how much they enjoyed his teaching.
Him? At the timestamp the female professor is speaking.
@@Ozymandias1 It's 11:53. I was 1 second of. Sorry.
Agreed... I have never met him, but I listen to his podcast 3 times a week and it's always interesting to learn about the origins behind stuff. It's always insightfull .. and he can be sarcastic and self relevating, which I love. And he's pretty sharp, especially when you consider he's way in his 70's.
i love his irony
I also believe Dutch aren't very good in taking orders. When someone would TELL me (and I'm not the only one) to GET him (or her) a coffee, like an order, I'd would ask them if there's something wrong with their hands. Ask me friendly and you'll get your coffee, don't order (except when you're in a restaurant of course, lol)
Even in a restaurant you don't TELL the waiter to GET you a coffee or coke or whatever. You'd ask 'Can I get a coke' or you would just say 'a coke please'.
in a dutch meeting it is common for everyone to have their say over an item of the meeting. (even the elevator boy, if he's present).
and if the elevator boy peed on it, and it broke, it probably wasn't a good idea.
The hierarchy at my work is most visible in the office spaces. The higher up you go the less office mates you have. We got 6, 4, 2 and 1 person rooms. Altho there are of course a few exceptions.
De bureaus worden ook groter naar het schijnt. Bij sommige bedrijven schijnt ook de stand van het bureau te veranderen. Bij sommige bedrijven bestaat de top uit een stelletje omhooggevallen figuren.😂
only dogs have a boss
i have a employer and he is just like me
The Dutch are very well organized yet quite informal as well.
The opposite goes for Belgium and many other countries...
(I'm from Belgium)
Funny you say that, I kinda like the slightly more formal Belgian way as a Dutchman, but to each their own I guess. I think I tend to make more of an effort when I go to our Belgian offices not to come across as what they perceive as typical Dutch. I do agree that meetings are slightly less structured in Belgium, and tend to start a bit late or run a bit late.
I tend to think that Belgians are quite similar to the (soutern) Dutch people when it comes to the struggle for equality. However, Belgians do know better where the line between formality or addressing someone formally and informality/being in a more human position or addressing someone in a more informal way. It is clearer there in my experience. They say that Belgians are less direct and open than the Dutch, andthis may be true to some degree, but at least the difference between the Flemish and the Dutch in the south of the Netherlands is not as big as the Flemish might think, in my opinion. The Belgians have more class (definitely in terms of the service approach), but you still shouldn't mess with them, becaused they are not as indirect and closed as you may think they are. And their dialects, especially those from the middle of Flanders (Antwerp and Flemish Brabant) will help them with the assertivity. Don't mess with them, because you're still in for a treat. And in fact I can get along a bit better with the Flemish than with many Dutch northwest of the Maas (especially those who are in important positions and/or rich seem to act like they are the example of the person you should be. I don't have problems with the more regular people from there, but I don't like an attitude like that. Most Belgians know when to say something andwhen not to say something; that line is clear. I can't say the same thing about many of my fellow Dutch people. I am Dutch, but I often feel like I'm more like a Belgian.
Having Dutch/the Netherlands in your title has summoned me lol 🇳🇱🧡
About the U and Jij, I remember in primary school we could say 'jij' and you would refer the teacher by meester (first name) or juf (first name) (meester and juf mean teacher). In secondary school, we had to say U and miss/mr (last name). Now I'm in uni and we call everyone, regardless of position 'jij' and we refer to them by their first name...
1:30 How anti structured are we? Well, we are very structured but also not very about hierarchy. For example, I am just customer representative in the office but can call our boss by his first name. And when there is a meeting with higher management I can voice my opinion without fear of any repercussions. Doesn’t mean that you don’t have to show respect, it is just another way of showing it. Not by licking his boots and just say yes and amen. For me it feels like a more honest way, but hey, I am Dutch. 😉
I worked in A big supermarket in the Netherlands and I remember we called the owner by his first name during koffee break and in the warehouse but in the store with customers around we always called him mister ''lastname''. that's something that comes naturally to me and I don't even have to think about it.
hierarchy excists in the army where every man of emale has the opportunity to speak out about certain plans. That why the dutch army is one of the best organized armies.
Small decisions were made on base of everyones input, big decisions about who to attack, by the CEO's (The generals ) naturally
I just thought about a story that happened with a secretary at my company. For clarification, I work at a global company that is on the stock exchange with a revenue of multiple billions a year. In the past the hierarchy was very clear and the secretaries got coffee for the CEO, CFO etc etc. Now a secretary transferred from our Rotterdam office to our Amsterdam office. After a few weeks of working in our office, the first supervisory board meeting was being held. The COO (Chief Operating Officer) asked her to get his coffee and bring it in the meeting room. Her response (She is from Rotterdam, so the Dutchies will understand how she responded) was simply; Is there something wrong with your hands? You can get your own coffee. From that moment, it became less and less normal that the secretaries got the coffee for the management in our company.
Mankeert er wat aan je handen
🤣
In Dutch culture, you indeed usually call a stranger 'u' (the polite term). But someone you know very well and you know you can just call them by their first names, such situations will indeed be informal.
there is form and function. In form, so how you addres another, the dutch do not have much of hierarchy. But when it is about function, so things that need to be done and to be decided, that hierarchy is much more clear.
The first helps to accept the second.
Hi there, nice one again.
In terms of Dutch language, there is a good example:
"U" had to be capitalized.
For years this is no more, "U" became "u", it was de-capitalized.🤓
Nowadays, I think the only place I still see that, is in regards to religion.
In every organisation there are 2 levels: social and professional. On the social level everybody is equal but on the professional level there are clear differences. In the company where I worked, my wife and I got along very well with the department's secretary and her husband. We were friends and everybody at the office knew it. At the office however she was the secretary and I was the pharmaceutical technology specialist working with production plants overseas.
It's about (ultimate) responsibility: a mutual process of deliberation, but one person ("in charge") with chop the knot ultimately ...
It reminds me of my internship (in the Netherlands) a few years ago, when I was about 22 years old. For my research I had an interview with one of the bosses. At first I tried being polite and addressed him the formal way. But then I was thinking: you may be the boss, but you're only 4 years older than me.. I'm going to speak the informal way to you. He never corrected me.. So I guess it wasn't a problem 😂
Always respect the the person on top of the ladder. If they prefer to use their front name or Just "jij" or "je" in duch, that means we are equal. Respect from both sides. More like friendship
I (a cifilian) had a colleague, who was a just retired ltcol (army). He was my previous boss and remarked that my trousers were too worn. I pointed at two other colleagues with even more worn trousers and said to him: Jeez, put your uniform back on so that you can polish your buttons again. I think only in the Netherlands such a conversantion can end with both smiling.
I used to work in an experimental steel foundry where we had to wear 3 layers of clothing, shirt/pants, overalls and a thin white hazmat suit + a fullface forced fespirator. boss used to show up occasionally on the work floor in the same get up, taking some action photos of me working and some selfies infront of blazing fires of the furnaces. Afterwards he'd sometimes get me water if he happened to be at the exit.
When I had 2 near death experiences he took time to indivually talk with everyone involved. Not to scold but ask how we were doing, what we'd like to improve etc, when I quit working there he asked me again for a chat, offered me coffee and a little gift when I left and asking why I left the company and if I had some ideas to improve the companies in the future.
I dunno, sure he still had the last say in everything but I think what this lack of hierarchy shenanigans is actually confusing the lack of it with mutual respect.
Your sweet kitty cat, every time I instantly smile when I see you together. 😊💜
A good example from personal experience is years ago when I was an intern. I stepped into an elevator and a man in a 3 piece suit asked me to hold it for him, first thing he did when we went up was introduce himself (CEO of the company) and tell me you can say je and jij (informal you). After which he asked me what I did how I liked the job and even if I had noticed things already that might have to be changed to make the work flow more efficient. I had been raised to address people that are clearly older or in a higher position with U (formal you), so I was a bit shocked at first, but it also gave me the feeling immediately that I was part of the company and not just someone who had to prove himself through years of dedication.
Haha I have worked in some schools.
In one school the hardrock, gothic and metal kids were usually sitting on the ground in a corner of where everybody was eating, and I sometimes sat down with them to talk about good music.
I also would let the kids call me by my first name. At first the manager of the school really was against that, but with the beginning of a new school year there was a new rule: ALL teachers and supporting personell should be addressed by their first name!
In another working place I was one of the IT-guys.
Our manager was always like: "You may call me an a***ole, no problem! As long as you explain why I am an a***ole."
He also used that word to the managers above him if they did not agree with him on something important, usually with an insulting word in front of it that discribed their intelligence. (Actually lack of it, of course.)
I usually use the formal form if I want something from an official institution (the government, your employer, a mortgage broker, etc) or if I want to passively aggressively show my disdain for how a company mishandled a situation (like an ISP who had unreasonable internet downtime or manufacturer that failed to repair my device twice).
I wotk in a prining factory so to speak, as printingpress operator. When work is low in production, we work in 1 shift, and I deliver printed books, letters, leaflets and whatnot. Sometimes I have to go deliver beyond the radius of the electric van. Then I can whatsapp the boss, if he would be coming before 10 am tomorrow, because I need his company car to deliver goods from the press.. I like to take these longer distance deliveries in one long ride, so I use his car for that, it s after all a company car, so it is insured and taxwise oke to use. Rather then my own private car I use to get to work.
I can so relate to this. When I went to highschool my teachers wanted to be called by there first name while thats kind of unusual even in the Netherlands. And we were allowed to say ''Je'' (Informal). Thats I think because they want to have a connection with the students so we feel we are all the same and more comfortable. Also I think because they feel old when we say ''U'' (Formal) 😂 Greetz Stef from Groningen:)
Zeker op het Montessori gezeten?
@@Random_user_8472 Neeman Leon van Gelder😂
Cause the way you talk to them in formal way. Is the reason the respect and moral is lost
As a 16 year old I always have a hard time figuring out to say the formal or informal form to people that are somewhere between 25-50. Because people will often say "Please just say the informal form" if you use the formal form, but if you start the other way around, and they don't like it, they will see you as a bit rude.
I especially have this problem when I talk to people in the supermarket/waiters in restaurant that are somewhere like 2 to 10 years older than me.
The fact I also feel emberassed pretty quick might play a large role in this whole thing.
The "Please just say the informal form" (In Dutch: Zeg maar je). Is used a lot by Dutch people, which also displays that people are used to hierarchy here being complex.
😂 in my second job, we would get coffee for each other if/when we’d get something for ourselves.
One day my boss was in his office with a colleague, I came in because I had a question. My boss asked could I get some coffees. 😂😂 My immediate, angry (not thought over) reply was “Even my father doesn’t dare ask me that anymore” 😂 I was angry. Had he had been there with an outside visitor it would have been fine, no problem. I would have gone and get 2 coffees. But him sitting there with a colleague, nah not a chance. Not his secretary, nothing wrong with their legs….
Edit: needless to say this (rather authoritative) boss was somewhat taken aback, 😂 but he never demanded for coffee again without being asked. And yet we much appreciated each other.
I can confirm that it's pretty complicated.
As an aside: the word "u" is actually derived from the possessive form ("uw(e)") of "ge/gij", an older alternative for "je/jij", which is still in active use in southern dialects as an informal way of adressing and in old bible translations and other religious texts, where it surprisingly plays the role of the formal address.
The way "u" was derived: it is a shortened form of "U.E." (in later times alternatively spelled as "uwé"), which is an abbreviation of "Uwe Edelheid" (Your Nobility). (This also explains why "u" in most cases goes with a third person verb conjugation.)
Ja, dat vraag ik me nou dus al een tijd af: de Hollanders zijn gij gaan gebruiken als formeel omdat Brabants sjiek was, maar in het Brabants is u formeel en gij informeel. Wie heeft dat verzonnen?
(Overigens zijn de Hollanders ook vergeten de samentrekkingen door te voeren.)
I work in a store called the HEMA, and my manager dies indeed get coffe for everyone and is just like us
I became a lot more aware of the lack of (or different) hierarchy in The Netherlands when I was doing an unpaid internship at an NGO in Boston (who do environmental protection). I turned a few heads when I spoke my mind without any hesitation in the first and subsequent board meetings. Whenever we had state reps and senators over, I always went over to have a casual chat like I would with any of my co-workers. At one point I was even carpooling with the city manager of Chelsea (they don't have a mayor) and discussing the benefits of legalized prostitution and weed.
Fast forward a year. I'm back in the Netherlands and I win a seat on my local city council right after graduating college. Some people started addressing me formally and I hated it. I'd much rather have people call me by my first name and address me with 'je' instead of 'u'. I think the Dutch views on hierarchy stem from our hatred of pretentiousness.
My manager has a background in the hotel business being a waiter amongst others. Whenever there is food around he"ll be the one serving the team.
Love Maarten, the “happy” old guy
He always reminds me of grumpy cat ;)
My school is still a fantastic acception to everything you just heard. I'm in secondary school and I just call my teachers by there first name and with 'je' or 'jij'. I don't think I will ever learn to be very polite because I wasn't learning to do that.
The je,jij rule is a really good example of this 'covert hierarchy'. Just because you know you can say je/jij to someone doesn't mean you should, you always address them bij their name and wait for them to give you the permission to say je/jij.
"We don't like those hard and fast rules.". Perhaps I am more Dutch than I thought.
When I was an intern at my auditing firm I got just as much to bring into the team as the director and managers in the meetings. But they do have veto rights on everything. It makes you feel wanted and happy.
Now as junior assistant I still will go lunch with the president of the company and managers. They have gotten coffee for me and I for them. Everyone is always in for a joke.
The downside: if you arent in for a joke or talk then you will be shown as rude.
"I don't want him as my teacher"
Good call. Maarten van Rossum is a very blunt instrument.
Lovely cat, gorgeous colors!
Thank you! Cheers!
Inthe end the Boss has the final say tough at work.
I've always been able to talk to any higher up in any job on an equal level.
It's even in the military.
I've been a corporal for a couple of years.
The training is a couple of weeks, that's military like you would expect, after that (behind closed doors, not so much if there are visitors) at the base, the office jobs, everybody's sort of the same.
At that point we just do our job and see the person behind the uniform again.
Unless someone really insists, then it's putting up the formal show again. (They're not the popular ones...)
We also don't use academic titles for our bosses and bosses don't hang their diplomas on the wall. It's simply not done. We often don't know the exact academic credentials of our bosses and, even less, the university where they studied. Their bosses know of course, because it determines their paygrade.
nice video Highly haha .
thanks for the video HXC
It is quite normal that a worker can tell the CEO that something is done wrong and if you have good argumentation the CEO will seriously listen to your feedback. It is absolutely one of the things I like about the Netherlands.
Fun thing I work just as a side job at a service cinema. My boss just casually walks in and helps us with order to bring the popcorn away. He messes it up and then we say how you are supposed to do it. Or he just offers everyone a drink etc. He asks how we would like things to be etc.
Ofc the boss has things to say and it is his decision at the end.
That guy with the balck shirt, glasses, and grey hair is maarten ban rossum. Je is a specialist in the american history
my personal rule. stay polite until being told otherwise. don't asume you can call someone by their first name. if the person in question wishes to be less formal,they will tell you
Like we always say, there is no "boss" in a company. Only dogs have a boss. In a company there are managers.
Even the Prime Minister did go to the normal supermarket like everyone else and goes on his bike to work, and when he accidently dropped coffee on the floor he wanted to clean it himself.
Im a Dutch guy living in Belgium and i totally brought this with me
The only person I’m scared of is still my mom 😂 If she Callas me, I say yes mam. What can I do. Ps I’m 43 😂
But once my boss kept yelling and screaming. I was sick of it and trown a pen at him and sad that I was done with him yelling. Hé mimbeld something and that was that 😂
Maarten Van Rossum is the dutch grumpy famous historician
We Dutch like to convince ourselves that everyone is equal but we all know that some people are more equal than others. The thing we really hate about hierarchy is people hiding behind it, the German WW2 phrase "befehl ist befehl" is the embodiment of this disgust. In this culture i have noticed at least in my experience in the Tech industry that CEO's don't like to view themselves as a boss, they like to view themselves as the coach of the team. So yeah i get regularly asked by the CEO if he can bring me some coffee or if he can help with with something else that makes my work more convenient. In return he will know i go above and beyond to get the job done, it's some weird way of showing mutual respect. Decisions are also made by the whole team and not by the head of the team like a real boss. It's through discussions that the majority of the team get it's way even if the CEO has his doubts. Only in rare cases will the CEO intervene and revert back in being the boss, but when he does he will let everyone know who is in charge and that his decisions is the final decision!
The dislike of playing the boss is so common that we invented the word "polderen" or the phrase "thee drinken". This means that people despite their place in the hierarchy come together as equals and discuss matter with the goal to find common ground.
The advantage of the Dutch system is that everybody can give his or her opinion. The boss decides after listening to these opinions. If another opinion os better than his/her own, dan he/she would gladly make that his/her own. This way the strength and knowledge of the group is utilized. If a boss makes all the decisions and does not use the groupknowledge, things are bound to frequently take the lesser way…
I would never take the trash out for someone else. Or they must have a problem healthwise, otherwise they can do it themselves. No matter what rang. I would be a very bad one in the army, I wouldn't accept orders, lol. One of the best friends of my parents was a Dutch general of the Airforce and I called him F... (not going to say his name) . The only ones who could give me orders were my parents. The rest can just ASK!
There is no hierarchy until there is ;)
Everyone is equal, BUT if we have to put the point on top of the i , he is the superior. It works perfectly.
Lmao that grilled cheese story. My boss is very similar, let's say we are having lunch and we decide to have grilled cheese, my boss asks if he can take yours to the grilled cheese machine (whatever it's called) so you don't have to go. There's definitely hierarchie, but at the same time he's one of us so to say.
I'm a waiter and I used to be very formal but after almost everybody always saying "please say "Je" (informal) I don't do it anymore. Unless it's a very old person or the king.
I only use the formal version of 'you' when someone owns me money or when I am mad at someone.
I think the difference is, that the role you have in a hierarchy is not attached to you being a better person. So the hierarchy is there, the last word is with the boss but he can make you a coffee and rides a bike instead of a limo. We dont like people that act like they are more important then any other. We all are worth while. So being respectfull is to acknowledge anyones worth instead acknowledge someones 'role'. Its sometimes very difficult to feel the difference. I intend to say 'u' to older people, people I just met and like the King...
We now (mostly in college) call our teachers by their first name, it makes it easier to talk to them/trust them if you have a problem, cuz you're equals.
For me personally Id say there is some hierarchy, but it's different from other countries. Dutch hierarchy is more about being respectful for elders or people with "higher jobs", because you have respect for what they've achieved. At the same time, we're all people and even the CEO is perfectly capable of getting some coffee for himself. It's a weird mixture of having a hierarchy while at the same time we're all equal.
it depends who you ask, i am very very allergic to authority thus i think their is still to much hierarchy for my taste.
others dutchies are more relaxed about it or even think it is preferable, as it also means less responsibility for self.
the ones that point we still have hierarchy in this video are, not surprisingly, our most anarchistic famous peeps.
even if my partner tells me i "have to" do something i get raised hairs.
i physically react to that shit hehehe
maarten van rossum is the dutch version of the beard of knowlage from pawnstars
The Netherlands has a similar back story as the USA. Both countries were founded by rebels who deposed a foreign king (King George III of England in the case of the USA and King Philip II of Spain in the case of the Netherlands). It's a part of the reason why Dutch people don't defer to authority as easy as our neighbors the British and the Germans. A Dutch person will want to know why a rule is necessary and if it makes sense they will follow it, if it doesn't they'll try to ignore it, mostly when the rules are a bit petty. When there's a sign Do Not Walk On Grass the Englishman and German will obey it and walk around the grass while the Dutchman will ignore it and walk over the grass.
Yes there is definatly hierarchy, but i call my boss Richard, i get him coffee, he gets me coffee, but when it comes to it i still have to do what he says. So yes pretty informal, but still there is hierarchy
I am a Afrikaner, we have a lot of similarities with the Dutch, from my expierience its more about how you treat people than what and who your status is, if a rich man treats a Afrikaner with disrespect he will be treated with disrespect, and visa versa, our leaders are chosen to do a job, and we have a way to express our satisfaction or dissatisfaction with that person very clear, they are not chosen leaders, they are chosen servants!!
Maarten van Rossum is such a cool personality. Loved it that you noticed
In the Dutch work culture you just know who is the boss. You treat him with the same amount of respect you would treat anyone else. This also means don’t test the boss; he/she will clearly put you in your place, usually as rude/sarcastically as they can. They just don’t rub their title and power in peoples faces. Our prime minister rides his bicycle to work ffs😂
I learned pretty fast about hierarchy since I work for a US Based Company, but i came here for kittycaaaaat oooow kittycaaaat meow hehe
I have to be in court a lot for work. Between judges and paralegals and administrators and even security theres no division. Everyone's equal.
Dutch btw
when u said 'i wouldnt want him as my teacher' ironically his colleges where very popular
The terms U and JIJ are still being used today by many Dutch people. Like Du and SIE in German. It has to do with age and respect.
about 5:31 yes this can happen but be very careful because if you where to act down on the CEO for example it takes a while or he forgot and you make a big deal of the fact he will respond as a CEO. it's a kind gesture to his employes that he makes, by asking it. earlier in the video it was said that they do that to seem more team player and friendly this is right but you should always show your respect for him doing so and that's the dutch hierarchy. respecting someone higher in the ladder for going out of his way to act ''nomal''
Maarten van Rossem, the oldest fart we have
The hierarchy in business life is actually quite efficient. When big decisions have to be made it will be the CEO and key managers doing that, without much input from the employees. However, the many day-to-day operating decisions can and will be questioned. A good manager knows how to listen to the opinions of the staff to make the workplace as a whole better. If you have a bad manager, just call the CEO and tell him why you want the manager to be fired
Omg the kitty cat 😍
+1 for showing the cat.
I think it is best to be polite and show respect to people who are older, have more experience, some sort of higher position etc. but that doesn't mean just being obidient about everything. Also when the other person says "it's ok to call me Jan" or something, that's when you know you can be more casual. It's very delicate and can change every moment but as you live in the Netherlands longer you'll get a feel for it.
Especially in a business setting, I usually start things quite formal and then get a feel for what the right setting might be.
Also think the guy who said we do have a hierarchy, but we often interact informal is quite right. I used to be a civilian advisor in the military and worked for a general. On the ladder I myself was a lieutenant colonel. And the general was always super nice and really approachable, til shit got serieus. No mistake who was the boss at that moment haha.
I am from the Netherlands, and when i see my king, i say hi alex how are you, and drink koffie ore a biertje.
I can perfectly decide for myself if something is against the law.....
But it is true....a boss is is the boss, he just can't show it, just like you can't show you have more money. You must make people (even employees) think they are equal, give them time to voice their opinion, then respectfully explain why their plan sucks and ask for a better solution. Repeat the process until their plan matches yours and pat them on the back and thank them for coming up with this brilliant plan. That way you all on board....it's their own plan, right?
usaly at work we talk at a firstname basis, even at the director.
My boss fixed my car, he didnt mind doing that. And I brought him coffee
tthe thing is that a boss want to welcome their workers and we do that with coffee