Wonder if it has to do with the lack of weapon swap animations on the Marauders. Most missile units - including horse archers - visibly swap between a ranged and melee stance. ( Drawing and sheathing swords -etc- ) Javelin type units don't.
Outriders (grenadiers) always have both the grenade launcher and sword model showing and clipping through each other at the same time. Wonder what happens with them.
@@Nadz203 it could be a non-visible weapon change. as in, their model changes "modes" as if changing weapons but it doesn't have a weapon swap animation.
The reason for why it works with marauder horsemen is because those do not have a dedicated melee stance so to speak where they stow away their ranged weapon. Most other skirmishers do have that. However ranged units will often shoot into the melee combat they are currently engaged in, if you put them on defense mode. The front ranks will pull out their swords and thos behind will still fire into the melee at the front, unless they have changed that in warhammer 3
I remember units like Free Company being able to fire in melee if put in guard mode in Warhammer 2. The front ranks will continue to fight with swords, while most everyone in the back will keep using their pistols.
Guard mode isn't actually the thing that makes it work. It's formation width that matters. Make sure you have as small a front as you can if you want your missile troops to continue firing in melee. As long as you let them fire at will, they'll do their job just fine. How do I know? Medieval Kingdoms 1212 AD (no guard mode in battles) with double unit size on, and my peasant crossbows got 500-700 kills holding a choke point against swords and spears. All the while losing barely a quarter of the unit after unloading thousands of crossbow bolts into a melee blob at least twice as large.
@@amp8295 I recently started another Empire campaign and my Free Company were as wide as possible. One half was swatting zombies while the other half was firing into the skeletons engaged with my frontline. Guard mode appears to enable this sort of behavior as well.
@@amp8295 Yeah guard mode isn't what makes it work. They just need to have enough ranks not directly in combat. And fire at will on of course. Giving a melee attack command will make them unable to fire while in melee so you have to eat a charge for this to work.
I believe guard mode helps them keep their formation, so instead of charging at the enemy, they stand and shoot. Depends on if the unit keeps formation , the number of entities in the unit in combat and how close the entities that aren't in combat are to the enemy unit. I believe gun infantry have a shorter minimum distance for entities from enemy entities than bow infantry.
Skirmishes are a vital unit in the start and middle of the campaign as well. They don’t usually end up in endgame stacks, but their ability to tremendously outperform their value against the computer with careful micro is regularly the difference between garrisons winning and losing, and even backup stacks being effective while being cheap.
Pink and Blue Horrors are also very good at firing in combat. Either by surrounding or making their formation narrow and long. This trick can mean the difference between dying with most of their ammo left from a melee charge on them and using up the ammo on a decent melee engagement
What's actually happening there is that if you fight with a small enough front there are multiple ranks of models not engaged in melee so they will still fire their weapons. Just keep fire at will on and do not give them a melee attack command to trigger them to TRY to get into melee. This should work on ALL ranged units by the way. Just keep fire at will on and then give them their default (ranged) attack command and keep your unit thick instead of wide so as few are actually in melee as possible. You can even issue a melee charge and THEN quickly give them a ranged attack command after contact!
I rememeber back in twh2 finding that a Crossbow Dreadlord on Black Dragon will outduel a Melee Dreadlord on Black Dragon, because he could fire the crossbow in melee. Luthor Harkon on a Terrorgheist could shoot his pistol in melee too. Don't know if this is still true in twh3.
been doing this for years on sisters of thorn! love them! though it isnt automatic. which is sad. also thats always been the power of the promethian gunnery mob too. love those crabs
I’m guessing it’s because they don’t swap weapons. Archers draw swords but war wagons just kinda bump into enemies. Marauder horsemen use their ranged weapons as melee weapons as well, just a guess though
Sigvald is a gigachad. Can get 70% missile shield and has good armor. No mount, but I've found with a lucky ranger flag and a lore of shadows wizard you can have him barrel at the enemy army like it's 1975 and you're pretending it's the early 500s.
Can Irondrakes fire in melee? I feel like it's happened to me before where I catch a unit of irondrakes out and get into melee with them and then my unit just goes up in flames. Haven't been able to replicate it in my Dwarf campaign though.
I really wish that lords that are ranged focus would.have animations in melee that use their ranged weapon and even count as ranged attacks. Imagine the shadow king firing off his moon cannon in melee hahha
Does putting an SEM in the middle of the Marauder Horsemen make a difference? Having an exalted hero mounted on a horse running in the middle of a pack of horsemen with axes seems like it'd be the perfect SEM-sniping band, because the hero can tank all the hits for the horsemen. IIRC if 2 SEMs fight in the middle of a blob they prioritize attacking each other instead of doing their AoE swings on the mob.
I wonder if maybe the logic (assuming there is any) is that marauder horsemen use thrown weapons, rather than bows, so it would presumably be easier to use those in melee?
Well you would expect dudes with literal throwing javelins they stab with anyway or axes which they , you guessed it, fight with anyway to be able to use those more effective than dudes with bows, which you have to hide on back and draw your meele weapon to fight in meele.
This is such a ridiculous bug its not like skirmish units are not op enough in land battles but you can now also dangerous for single entities in melee.
I wonder if this works well with ancient stegadons to clear out chaff. Because you could have it just go ham with its weapon strength bonus against infantry of you could let it fire a continuous volley of missiles into a horde
Troops that have seperate ranged units mounted on them will have those units continue to fire no matter what. This is why ancient stegadons and dreadsaurians are great at just brawling in the midst of chaff. For every nonferal dino with skinks on them you even have 4 skinks just throwing javelins at nearby enemies. This means that those dinos technically all have poison attacks until the skinks have no more ammo. You actually have quite a few such units in the game. The khemrian warsphinx, the necrofex colossus and the steamtank are other examples of this. All these units function on the same principle as chariots when it comes to these auxiliary troops on them.
depends. It makes hybrid units a lot better. So does Skirmishers but the fact it's not consistent makes it uncertain which way is meant to go. The fact they attack with ranged is more logical than not.
this is probably a bug but I hope some form of this becomes consistent. a unit with a ranged attack should be able to at least have a chance to fire while the model is not in melee even if the unit itself is in melee
Figured this out after some burning chariots beat the shit out of my longmas and their dragon blooded lord in melee - and here I thought "ah, easy value"...
It's the general problem of this series that ranged units are way too strong. CA can buff dragons and other SEM's a dozen more times, they'll never be viable as long as they can just get torn to shreds by 3 units of dirt-cheap archers. It would be reasonable for any missile unit to still be able to fire in combat in a limited way, if they just wouldn't do so much damage.
The amount of ammo is the problem, not the damage. You can have an archer unit firing for almost the entire game and they'll have ammo for all of it. Its fucking stupid. Unlike Attilla etc. where ammo was very limited but your shots were impactful.
You say that, and it is true for campaign, but for multiplayer in tww3 with domination ranged units are very lacking and generally you never go more than 4 basic ranged troops and 4 skirmishers out of an army of 30+ units.
@@SenpaiTorpidDOW They're weak because of the same problem. Less impactful, too much ammo and so therefore have to get value over super pro-longed fights - which dominion doesn't want.
I think its a feature more than a bug, its not like chaos has a lot of ranged options this certainly helps marauder horsemen keep their relevancy. Let me add to this that they are just throwing their weapons imagine How weird It would look If horse archers actually fired in melee
I think its still a bit to strong when a single unit of horsemen can kill azazel in combat, besides at least in dom chaos factions are pretty strong already. But yea it does make more sense for throwing weapons logically than for bow cav
This all just seems like yet another oversight from CA in remembering/understanding how elements ported from game 2 were originally designed. Its like they are relearning stuff they had previously mastered. I cant wait until the core of the game is fit an playable so that we can get excited about new content, without know that the core is still buggy AF ruining it.
Have you played IE yet? There is something to be desired with campaign AI and a few issues like this, but I really wouldn’t describe it as buggy. It’s most definitely “playable”
Wonder if it has to do with the lack of weapon swap animations on the Marauders. Most missile units - including horse archers - visibly swap between a ranged and melee stance. ( Drawing and sheathing swords -etc- ) Javelin type units don't.
Marauder horsemen do swap weapons. They have javelins as well as a larger spear.
Outriders (grenadiers) always have both the grenade launcher and sword model showing and clipping through each other at the same time. Wonder what happens with them.
Yeets the last spear. Awwww fuck should've held on to that last one
@@isaacgorski6054 I could just see this.
@@Nadz203 it could be a non-visible weapon change. as in, their model changes "modes" as if changing weapons but it doesn't have a weapon swap animation.
"Fires while in combat" should be a separate trait just like "fires on the move"
The reason for why it works with marauder horsemen is because those do not have a dedicated melee stance so to speak where they stow away their ranged weapon. Most other skirmishers do have that. However ranged units will often shoot into the melee combat they are currently engaged in, if you put them on defense mode. The front ranks will pull out their swords and thos behind will still fire into the melee at the front, unless they have changed that in warhammer 3
no, that still works. fortunatly
IIRC it's not defense mode that lets them fire into combat, it's fire-at-will.
@@TheGrumbliestPuppy Gnoblar seem to do it with only one
I remember units like Free Company being able to fire in melee if put in guard mode in Warhammer 2. The front ranks will continue to fight with swords, while most everyone in the back will keep using their pistols.
yeah you have to have them on guard mode and Not give them an attack command
Guard mode isn't actually the thing that makes it work. It's formation width that matters.
Make sure you have as small a front as you can if you want your missile troops to continue firing in melee. As long as you let them fire at will, they'll do their job just fine.
How do I know? Medieval Kingdoms 1212 AD (no guard mode in battles) with double unit size on, and my peasant crossbows got 500-700 kills holding a choke point against swords and spears.
All the while losing barely a quarter of the unit after unloading thousands of crossbow bolts into a melee blob at least twice as large.
@@amp8295 I recently started another Empire campaign and my Free Company were as wide as possible. One half was swatting zombies while the other half was firing into the skeletons engaged with my frontline. Guard mode appears to enable this sort of behavior as well.
@@amp8295 Yeah guard mode isn't what makes it work. They just need to have enough ranks not directly in combat. And fire at will on of course. Giving a melee attack command will make them unable to fire while in melee so you have to eat a charge for this to work.
I believe guard mode helps them keep their formation, so instead of charging at the enemy, they stand and shoot. Depends on if the unit keeps formation , the number of entities in the unit in combat and how close the entities that aren't in combat are to the enemy unit. I believe gun infantry have a shorter minimum distance for entities from enemy entities than bow infantry.
Skirmishes are a vital unit in the start and middle of the campaign as well. They don’t usually end up in endgame stacks, but their ability to tremendously outperform their value against the computer with careful micro is regularly the difference between garrisons winning and losing, and even backup stacks being effective while being cheap.
Yeah, they can really pull their value. They're especially important to chase off routing units so they don't return to the battlefield.
Best unit in the chaos roster imo, including multiplayer. Even without this tactic/potential bug they are a tremendous unit.
Razordons can do this as well and it makes them insanely powerful.
Pink and Blue Horrors are also very good at firing in combat. Either by surrounding or making their formation narrow and long. This trick can mean the difference between dying with most of their ammo left from a melee charge on them and using up the ammo on a decent melee engagement
Been playing a Lokhir campaign and found it worked with black ark corsairs(handbows). Turned what I thought was a sure loss into an easy win
What's actually happening there is that if you fight with a small enough front there are multiple ranks of models not engaged in melee so they will still fire their weapons. Just keep fire at will on and do not give them a melee attack command to trigger them to TRY to get into melee. This should work on ALL ranged units by the way. Just keep fire at will on and then give them their default (ranged) attack command and keep your unit thick instead of wide so as few are actually in melee as possible. You can even issue a melee charge and THEN quickly give them a ranged attack command after contact!
I rememeber back in twh2 finding that a Crossbow Dreadlord on Black Dragon will outduel a Melee Dreadlord on Black Dragon, because he could fire the crossbow in melee. Luthor Harkon on a Terrorgheist could shoot his pistol in melee too. Don't know if this is still true in twh3.
been doing this for years on sisters of thorn! love them! though it isnt automatic. which is sad. also thats always been the power of the promethian gunnery mob too. love those crabs
Luthor Harkon shoots in melee as well which makes him quite deadly sometimes
My Elyrian reavers are getting owned by Noctilus.
This is what makes the norscan wolf sled so good.
Yo, is that Gus Sorola?
Wait. Can't be. He sounds too happy.
I’m guessing it’s because they don’t swap weapons. Archers draw swords but war wagons just kinda bump into enemies. Marauder horsemen use their ranged weapons as melee weapons as well, just a guess though
thanks, those units were not annoyng enough
Sigvald is a gigachad. Can get 70% missile shield and has good armor. No mount, but I've found with a lucky ranger flag and a lore of shadows wizard you can have him barrel at the enemy army like it's 1975 and you're pretending it's the early 500s.
have seen multiple comments talking about some ranged units firing into combat when in defense mode.
Maybe another video is in order.
Can Irondrakes fire in melee? I feel like it's happened to me before where I catch a unit of irondrakes out and get into melee with them and then my unit just goes up in flames. Haven't been able to replicate it in my Dwarf campaign though.
I really wish that lords that are ranged focus would.have animations in melee that use their ranged weapon and even count as ranged attacks. Imagine the shadow king firing off his moon cannon in melee hahha
I see my Gnoblars sometimes do this even without guard mode.
Does putting an SEM in the middle of the Marauder Horsemen make a difference? Having an exalted hero mounted on a horse running in the middle of a pack of horsemen with axes seems like it'd be the perfect SEM-sniping band, because the hero can tank all the hits for the horsemen. IIRC if 2 SEMs fight in the middle of a blob they prioritize attacking each other instead of doing their AoE swings on the mob.
I wonder if maybe the logic (assuming there is any) is that marauder horsemen use thrown weapons, rather than bows, so it would presumably be easier to use those in melee?
Not really a skirmisher but the sisters of twilight also do that.
Well you would expect dudes with literal throwing javelins they stab with anyway or axes which they , you guessed it, fight with anyway to be able to use those more effective than dudes with bows, which you have to hide on back and draw your meele weapon to fight in meele.
This is such a ridiculous bug its not like skirmish units are not op enough in land battles but you can now also dangerous for single entities in melee.
I wonder if this works well with ancient stegadons to clear out chaff. Because you could have it just go ham with its weapon strength bonus against infantry of you could let it fire a continuous volley of missiles into a horde
Troops that have seperate ranged units mounted on them will have those units continue to fire no matter what. This is why ancient stegadons and dreadsaurians are great at just brawling in the midst of chaff. For every nonferal dino with skinks on them you even have 4 skinks just throwing javelins at nearby enemies. This means that those dinos technically all have poison attacks until the skinks have no more ammo. You actually have quite a few such units in the game. The khemrian warsphinx, the necrofex colossus and the steamtank are other examples of this. All these units function on the same principle as chariots when it comes to these auxiliary troops on them.
My hellstorm batteries get me killed every time. My grenade rider stack always wins in auto
Empire mains punching the air after IE release
Does the guard mode trick still work where a front line fight and the back lines shoot from WH2?
Yes but it has nothing to do with guard mode.
If you put them in guard mode, they'll fire in combat.
Huh marauder horsemen just went from chaff to SE assassins
Is it not a bug? Are they supposed to do that?
depends. It makes hybrid units a lot better. So does Skirmishers but the fact it's not consistent makes it uncertain which way is meant to go. The fact they attack with ranged is more logical than not.
Can we all appreciate how good the game looks graphically.
this is probably a bug but I hope some form of this becomes consistent. a unit with a ranged attack should be able to at least have a chance to fire while the model is not in melee even if the unit itself is in melee
Guard + fire at will
tzeentch horrors can also fire while in combat
does this make volkmars free company militia significantly better?
Figured this out after some burning chariots beat the shit out of my longmas and their dragon blooded lord in melee - and here I thought "ah, easy value"...
This seems more like a bug than a feature
Heck I already thought they were pretty strong
So is this a bug or a feature?
The inconsistencies in this game drive me insane.
Was this in WH 2 or is this a bug?
Sounds like a bug.
Can this work with Iron Hail Gunners?
rohje: because raid is for casuals
It's the general problem of this series that ranged units are way too strong. CA can buff dragons and other SEM's a dozen more times, they'll never be viable as long as they can just get torn to shreds by 3 units of dirt-cheap archers. It would be reasonable for any missile unit to still be able to fire in combat in a limited way, if they just wouldn't do so much damage.
The amount of ammo is the problem, not the damage. You can have an archer unit firing for almost the entire game and they'll have ammo for all of it. Its fucking stupid. Unlike Attilla etc. where ammo was very limited but your shots were impactful.
You say that, and it is true for campaign, but for multiplayer in tww3 with domination ranged units are very lacking and generally you never go more than 4 basic ranged troops and 4 skirmishers out of an army of 30+ units.
@@SenpaiTorpidDOW They're weak because of the same problem. Less impactful, too much ammo and so therefore have to get value over super pro-longed fights - which dominion doesn't want.
Was this also the case i WH2? Or is this our typical daily dose of IE jankyness?
I was wondering where those explosions from my Khorne Marauder Horsemen were coming from.
It makes marauder horsemen unique and great!
CA won't fix this lol.
I think its a feature more than a bug, its not like chaos has a lot of ranged options this certainly helps marauder horsemen keep their relevancy. Let me add to this that they are just throwing their weapons imagine How weird It would look If horse archers actually fired in melee
I think its still a bit to strong when a single unit of horsemen can kill azazel in combat, besides at least in dom chaos factions are pretty strong already. But yea it does make more sense for throwing weapons logically than for bow cav
This is ridiculously OP and cannot be a feature.
This all just seems like yet another oversight from CA in remembering/understanding how elements ported from game 2 were originally designed. Its like they are relearning stuff they had previously mastered.
I cant wait until the core of the game is fit an playable so that we can get excited about new content, without know that the core is still buggy AF ruining it.
Have you played IE yet? There is something to be desired with campaign AI and a few issues like this, but I really wouldn’t describe it as buggy. It’s most definitely “playable”
odd...
Weird gimmick
Awesome, another reason not to play multiplayer.
I'm immune to your sellout, enticity, with sponsorblock i can avoid all your ramblings about cheap and poorly made chinese fashion watches!
what a mess