I agree with you about things like the Scarlet Brotherhood being the "Scarlet Order" (but I am still interested in the endonym for the actual people of the peninsula and plateau: "Shar", if I recall correctly) and adding dumb new races like "Aasimar". I think that the thing about the Pomarj doesn't exclude it being overrun with humanoids, it just recasts humanoids in that region as explicitly bandits, etc., and I think I'm okay with that, though at my table the humanoid dominance of the region will be obvious. Mostly, I think I'm mainly interested in the new material rather than the changed material, so the culture notes are high on my list of things to actually use. For me, the material in the Gold Box/Folio editions remains supreme, and since it's all still available in PDF (and POD for the Folio edition) that remains possible for new players as well. Game mechanical stuff like classes and character levels might change for the use of 5E players, since level 11 Fighter in AD&D and level 11 Fighter in 5E are (at least potentially) different qualitative and quantitative measures. Annoying as it may be I understand the need to rename Blackmoor to "Arn", since that is the result of outside forces unrelated to the actual setting. The bit about warm jungles beyond the Land of Black Ice goes all the way back to the Folio edition, where it's said that the City of the Gods lies there and is surrounded by warm climes, and the Gold Box edition, where there is a mention of tales of jungles and such beyond the icy waste.
I'm quietly optimistic about this. This is introducing Greyhawk to a whole new generation of D&D players who started playing with 5E. If they like what they read in this DMG they can find the original works (the Folio, the gold box and the early modules) as PDFs on DriveThruRPG. I am not so sure about those saying WotC should have just left Greyhawk alone unless they are okay with Grehawk dying out as a campaign setting as the grognard players from the 1970s and 1980s start to pass away. If you want Greyhawk to carry on as a campaign setting into the future, it has to be presented to new players in new WotC releases.
How many new people became interested in the old Forgotten Realms lore after 5e release? Or, even better, how many people became interested in AD&D Ravenloft after the release of the Curse of Strahd? I highly doubt that those numbers are high enough to be considered. Most people don't care about old stuff, they want something new, even if new is just a chopped and "reimagined for better inclusivity" old.
The Scarlet Brotherhood thing is strange, since the change does affect how they're perceived. Not just as racial/cultural supremacists, but ones with a distinct patriarchal bent. Given that they've always been an unambiguous villain faction, I don't see how that's out of line for them. They were already defined as hardcore bigots.
super fun that they have chosen Greyhawk for 5.5... Venjer shall now wander the Welkwood... seen hovering about the Jewel River and shouting at a group of hapless adventurers
I think using Greyhawk as the template for creating a campaign is an excellent approach. WotC is probably gun-shy around some of the spicier/interesting elements, but by providing a decent overview of Greyhawk, hopefully, it encourages more interest in the setting - and more traffic for this channel!
Marauders, indeed. In my GH the Pomarj is overrun by humanoid tribes characterized by dog-faced kobolds and pig-faced orcs. All of whom are evil, as Kurtulmak and Gruumsh intended, thank you very much!
No Blackmoor aye? I think that bothers me the most because we put out school of magick there...since the one in Niola Dra isn't really for commoners. Plus I always loved how the Druids in Blackmoor take the dead back to the Black Ice during funerary rites. It was always such a culture of its own up there. If they changed the name I wonder if it will still have the culture with the widows and Kettle Keep and all that good stuff?
It's there. It's just called Arn now. I think that's because the Dave Arneson estate holds the trademark on "Blackmoor", which is honestly a legitimate reason to change, plus they did manage to get in a little nod to Dave A.
Reviewing my 1e DMG (which I consider to have also focused on Greyhawk) and specifically the city encounter tables, I do find many non-human / non-demi-human denizens in Gygaxian cities, notably quite a few devils, demons, and undead wandering around town. In the notes it explains these are summoned by evil magic users and clerics. Most of the other monsters are disguised as humans (rakshasas, dopplegangers, and lycanthropes) Nevertheless, perhaps I need to accept that all the Dragon-born, tiefling, and goliath characters new players will expect to find in the setting will not be so out of place..? Happy Halloween!
My good aligned Greyhawk cities have laws forbidding use of magic within the city except by officials and members of a mage’s guild or accredited clergy from a local temple. Membership into the guild requires an annual fee paid to the city and helps offset the cost of any magical… mishaps. I never include magic shop exactly, but mage’s guild and temples can be contacted to create minor enchanted weapons, scrolls, or potions. Asking for anything quite specific to be crafted would be extremely time consuming and expensive, my players will need to go on adventures for the really good stuff!
I was wondering how they'd shoehorn in the races into the setting... they obviously didn't care about the 'how', just their 'why'. I'm keeping to my Greyhawk where weird races are rare, or impossible. Want a tiefling? Either you're a planeswalker or you're the child of a wizard that forgot which circle to stand in when summoning a fiend. Aasimar? Dragonborn? Goliath? Don't exist.
it's actually not hard to imagine adding goliaths, given there are already half-giants like firbolgs, verbeeg and voadkyn. A race of hardy mountain people, rare but known to inhabit the rocky peaks that look down upon the lands of the Northern Barbarians, Perrenland, and the Sheldomar Valley. I'm NOT saying to have to, just that you chose to, it shouldn't be difficult. Dragonborn, OTOH, really need a whole damn story to justify their inclusion.
As a pedant for lore I _do_ appreciate them finally setting a hard starting date of 576 ᴄʏ (which means I won't have to alter the backstories for any of my 5e "Greyhawk" characters), _but_ I'm also perfectly fine with relying on the "old lore" for any campaign I may run. Still, as much as I've disliked _many_ of WotC's decisions as of late, I _am_ happy that they've put some focus on the setting as they had back in 3e (which was largely what got me into "Greyhawk" in the first place).
Greyhawk was well described long time ago. I dont understand why to change the original. This greyhawk, for me will be other timeline. And with the time will be like starwars canteen and not humancentric. I will not spend money in wotc.
Did they printed the famous statement "Based on the original Dungeons & Dragons rules created by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson" in this new DMG? Or did WotC removed it again like the 2014 core rules book? I'm curious.
That depends if WotC is going to be releasing more Greyhawk products that deviate further from the original line. From what I understand WotC is now leaving further Greyhawk material to contributors to the DMs' Guild store. If so, I reckon this section in the DMG will reignite interest in Greyhawk among a new generation of D&D players and creators. And although the quality of stuff on the DMs' Guild can vary, I'm optimistic that at least some of it could be very good contributions to Greyhawk.
@@bathwizard I don't think there's much of the classic Greyhawk left that they want to pillage. They took the Giants (to the Forgotten Realms) and Elemental Evil (also to the Realms.) They took the Forbidden City and Tomb of Horrors and put that in Chult (in the Realms.) They tried to re-do Saltmarsh and keep it in the Flanaess, but it didn't turn out well. My guess is that Chris Perkins really loves the World Of Greyhawk and wants to be able to go back to making Dungeon adventures set there after he leaves WotC, so he pushed to have the setting used as the example in the DMG he wrote and unlocked on the DMs Guild.
"It's not completely awful" is about as good as i could've hoped for in this day and age. I considered buying the DMG purely for the Greyhawk section, cutting it out, then throwing the rest in the trash, but I think I won't even bother to do that. I still have all my 2014 rulebooks and my old 1/2 edition sourcebooks so I need absolutely nothing wotc offers. I am not actually that fervently opposed to adding the newer races so long as i do it on my own terms; that is, creating a story/adventure reason for their presence and still keeping the setting primarily humanocentric overall.
In my opinion, Tieflings and Aasimar don't go against Greyhawk's humanocentric them, most of them are descended from planetouched humans, and planar pacts are a very common narrative in the original Greyhawk setting. It makes realistic sense for tieflings to be common in places like Iuz and the Horned Society and for Aasimar to be common in theocracies, and for both to be common in relation to the many demigods and hero-gods of the setting. The list of location rulerss is still mostly humans. I can list a general breakdown About 80% humans, 10% demihumans (a couple humanoids and one being a disguised dragon), 10% unknown or by committee. 2 are aasimar, 1 a tiefling, but I would consider them to be human descended unless otherwise stated. Finally there is Goliath freeholder in the Yeomanry. It's a democracy so they were voted in, but it makes sense for a Goliath to be there considering it's by the Jotens and the Crystalmysts of Old Keoland, which are defined by conflict against the giants. Dragonborn while not having a ruled location are also said to live in the uncharted mountains with a rivalry with Goliaths but trucing against greater threats, places that make logical sense rather than settlements. All in all not much has changed there, most settlements are still human with a few demihumans. Dragonborn and Goliaths have clans in the wildernesses of the mountain ranges. And Tieflings and Aasimar make logical sense for the fiendish spread of Iuz and the Great Kingdom, the celestial touch of the good theocracies, and all the demigods roaming around.
@@JazzyBassy agree that teiflings in known fiend-infested areas and goliaths in mountain-adjacent areas makes perfect sense IF I choose to add/allow them in my game, but am still ambivalent about them being included at all. As for the dragonborn, I'd have them be native to the Far Eastern regions of Oerth rather than the Flanaess, and do an adventure inspired by the voyages of Admiral Zheng He. Imagine a dozen of giant flying Chinese-styled Dragonships floating down to land in the Selitan, disgorging their passengers to engage in discovery, trade, and diplomacy. Now, I would not make ALL the 'Asian' characters dragonborn, as I feel that that would lean too far into straight up racist tropes, but they'd be one among many races that make up the Empire's demographics- them, humans, elves, half-elves, and let's say hobgoblins due to the odd quirk of all the old art showing them using oriental-style armor and weapons.
Magic Item shops are fine for Gonzo settings or for the Players to unload minor magic items. How many +1 daggers or potions of Fire Resistance do you need?
I find it amusing they remember the 80s Dungeons a Dragons cartoon was supposed set in Greyhawk after slapping a pointless cameo of the kids in a movie set in the forgotten realms.
I stick to the AD&D 1st Edition Greyhawk, with some 2nd Edition. I don't care for any other Greyhawk. I have extended the ruleset. My paladin/cleric 18/19 character has researched 28 cleric spells. There are 23 of us in our play group. We have converted most of Greyhawk to Lawful Good (extensive roleplaying) using the rules. I have designed over 13 adventures. This later stuff doesn't appeal to me. St. Cuthbert rules!
Will use the campaign setting material you published to supplement what is in the DMG. Think I would rather put the Tiamat manipulati g chromatic Dragons in the background, after all that was previously done in Tyranny of Dragons for Forgotten Realms.
Does the early WotC obsession with putting a temple of Tharizdun on every street corner still continue? Or is Tharizdun in its proper place - lost and forgotten?
I still see this as a positive. I was surprised around 2016 or so when I went to Roll20 over COVID that everything was FR and many folk had never even heard of Greyhawk. if more players get into it, then great. Most likely they'll be looking at 'old school' DMs (at least RPGA era and before), older modules, older Gazetteers, etc. and a lot games will slip into older things. If players want to play Greyhawk, its easier for me to step in and say "Greyhawk only races" and skip dragonborn, Tieflings, etc. and give them older materials.
My half goat, half turtle, half parrot artificer gnome rabbit is level 4302 and wears a silver cape as he flies over the land dispensing magic eggs to the clockwork dragon octopus people.
Part of me likes the name changes for the countries. In the same way Germany and Deutschland; Etats Unie and the United States; or Czechia, the Czech Republic and Bohemia are all names for the same countries. I like the idea that different people call the same country different names. The changes to the rulers and the population demographics, not so much.
I have pawn shops but the PCs almost never bother with them. That's where you would find magic items , and it's likely the owner don't know what they are.
Before I watch the video, let me guess the changes: Mordenkainen is now trans, Bigby and Rary are lovers, Tenser is a tabaxi, Tasha runs the Circle of Eight, and the highest sin in Pholtus' religion is dead-naming someone. Oh, and orcs are still coded as Latino, just like in the Forgotten Realms. Sounds about right for current-day WokeC/Hasbeen.
Saw you on my FB today in the friends line so I accepted. I love the Greyhawk setting but I lost my Darlene maps is there anyway to get them now days? I still have the books from the box set. And a handful of the modules. Keep the faith Grognard.
Let's be fully neutral (in a nod to classic Greyhawk worldview of balance). 1. This is a sample/example campaign setting. It is not intended as "canon" that must be retconned into existing/previous versions. 2. If you don't intend to make any changes to your own Greyhawk campaigns, then there is no need to buy the DMG for this content. 3. If you're a long-time DM who has plenty of other worldbuilding/campaign tools and experience, this isn't for you. It's for new DMs who have never tried to build a campaign of their own before. Again, it's offered as an *example*. 4. The biggest thing that fans of existing Greyhawk should focus on is that Chris Perkins said WOTC has no plans to create any other content for Greyhawk -- that's why they made it available for content creators on the DMs Guild. They want to encourage more DMs to get into making content and encourage them to look at and use the campaign that "started it all". There are a hell of a lot of new DMs and people new to D&D who have *zero* knowledge of the origins of people like Mordenkainen or who Otiluke and Bigby are. 5. IMHO, there is no point in viewing this 2024 "campaign example" as a change to anything about established Greyhawk works and lore. I have dozens of Greyhawk publications, from the original folio to Oerth magazine, to Living Greyhawk, to Anna Meyer's maps, to Grognard's content (e.g. his Rift modules) and no one needs to change anything just because an example campaign was printed in the 2024 book. 6. My 2 cents: do what recovery programs like AA tell members to do: take what you like and leave the rest.
Knowing the map is 576 is interesting. I'm debating looking at running an old-school game (1e or C&C) in Greyhawk but the gold box is like $200 on ebay. Maybe I can get someone who has the 2024 DMG and has no plans to use greyhawk to give me the map so I can just POD the folio or gold box and substitute the map. IIRC they did change the name of blackmoor (presumably due to something with Arneson's estate). Comparing the maps they changed Plains of the Paynims (that one I kinda get since paynim means "heathen") and changed the barbarian/nomad names to what their actual tribes are called (which Im personally okay with)
So forgive me for asking stupid questions, but why is a setting in a reference book? I mean isn't the DMG supposed to be schooling the DM on rules to run the game? Well, I guess it could've been worse (not that GH was my pick of settings). If I wasn't out in the sticks I'd offer to run audio for you gratis.. Thanks for the video broham!
They teach "how to" in the book and one of the topic it's creating a setting and first adventures, and the Greyhawk is a exemple of a skeletonesque setting you can use and "upgrade" as your campaign goes. The cross reference what and how in the hole 5-6 chapters. It's a really good book for a new DM and even for a experienced one. Of course some grognards won't like and point errors or absurd, but for me, and my players, we are excited to use this with old stuff for a new campaign next year.
@@renanrossi5434 ah I see, so is GH the only sample or do they work through other examples in these multiple chapters? I kinda wonder if they focus detail on a given place, and then demonstrate by overview with the rest. Well as a worthless "grognard" who has nothing worthwhile to contribute and hasn't learned anything by studying physical anthropology and pulling apart previous settings to rewrite them for many, many sets of players to experience, I'll shuffle off and wait for the full review.
@@PvtSchlock only exemple and just a skeleton with hints of ideas. Don't know about anthropology or what people do, I just want good ideias and images that inspire my games and the games of my friends. People who cares about this changes don't have nothing in commun with D&D since, at least 4th edition. They don't even play the game. Don't know why they care so much about it. The old stuff it's still there and now they can write about it (legaly) the way they wanted. It's a win win for me. I'm playing this game since early 2000 and it's the more exciting years: you can have anything, from anywhere from anyone in just a click.
It's decent enough, but since it's a single page it's necessarily small. Not as nice as the Darlene map, of course, but I'd say better than the LG map.
@@Marpaws Sorry, I meant that it's a single sheet, not an 8.5x11 page. It's about the same size as one of the Darlene map sheets, maybe a smidgen smaller.
Tiger Nomads and Wolf Nomads are mentioned in the Northern Flanaess. They just don't put those names on the map. By the way, I appreciate you giving the Greyhawk section a fair shake. I'm anxious to get the physical DMG so I can see it and look at the actual map.
The dragon plot isn't bad because it's new. It's bad because is boring. Why are evil dragon a problem now? Because the Realms have a big adventure with Tiamat as the villain. We don't need the same conflicts in every world. Greyhawk has its own evils, many mentioned in that book. This is simply lazy.
Probably in reference to the Red Hand of Doom from 3e, which did use Greyhawk as its default setting, and it led to 4e's Scales of War. However, while looking at the era of 3e Greyhawk, I can't help but feel that for dragon conflicts, the red demonic greatwyrm Ashardalon and his "adventure path" starting with Sunless Citadel and ending in Bastion of Broken Souls are WAY more iconic to Greyhawk than Tiamat, and if they are gonna go with Tiamat, they should at least talk about Dragotha of the Age of Worms Adventure Path and Return to White Plume Mountain, who was a consort to Tiamat, was slain by her for forming an alliance with Kyuss, and then made into Kyuss's undead servant. Ashardalon does have an entry in the lore glossary at least. But I feel they should have cast their net wider with going over the plots of some of the iconic dragons of Greyhawk adventures (Mostly in 3e, where they were characters in their own right)
Dragon lore was as its peak in 3e. I may not like the three pages stats, but the Draconomicon, Dragon Magic and even Dragons of Faerûn (adapted to my campaign) are the base for many adventures on my world.
Not as bad as I thought it would be, but also adding exactly nothing of value. Hopefully it doesn't do too much damage to the hobby (the best that can be said for WotC/5e products) With luck a few people will start googling and find your videos, drivethru copies of the gold box, etc.
So they give you a map and descriptions of the GreyRealms huh? That's just super. 🙄 Gotta have that multiverse so they can make that Modenkainen magic card (though the Pinkertons card is best as it steals a player's deck). I do like your guide better what i've read so far.
Joe, there’s not much chance I’ll ever buy another WotC book, but I’d really like to know what you think about the maps. Mike Schley will probably put them up in his web store if he hasn’t already.
Not really too keen on a magic shop either. I feel like it flies in the face of the sword & sorcery tone that Greyhawk has where magic is largely mistrusted. Maybe I'm off base with that.
Let me guess...Mordenkainen is transgender, "Lordship of the Isles" is now the "Ladyship of the Isles", the "Theocracy of the Pale-Is-Stale" is an evil patriarchy...(Oh crap, the Scarlett Brotherhood is now the Scarlett Order, seriously. They beat me to it.)
Someone clearly did his research for this section. I suspect most of the changes came from the suits and not the authors. May these people get more freedom in a future release and we may get decent additions. A man can dream...
At the risk of hubris, I like to think that campaign is why it is in the DMG in the first place, at least a tiny bit. The whole Greyhawk community has been vocal for years. The DMG reference could just be a response to that.
At least they set Greyhawk in the right timeline of 576cy. I would consider this greyhawk chapter just a light review of the setting. To encourage players to getting the actual World of Greyhawk box set and or Greyhawk Grognards guide
I have no intention of getting 6e and this book seals that decision. Adding nonsense races to a setting that didn’t have them is typical wotc. People interested in using Greyhawk should use original material and your book.
I'm still mostly against this new edition, I don't know... I hum and hah... should I buy the DMG at least? It's really only be for the Greyhawk stuff...
They've changed some races and genders ?
Oh my God, I'm sooooo surprised !
" To my mind, it's unnecessary..." WOTC modus operandi is to change things when it's completely unnecessary.
Totally necessary. If you don't manage to look busy, corporate is apt to eliminate your position. Of course, they may well still do that anyway.
"It won't be at my table, I'll tell you that..." And that mantra right there will allow you to enjoy a lot of WotC material, regardless. Easy as that!
I agree with you about things like the Scarlet Brotherhood being the "Scarlet Order" (but I am still interested in the endonym for the actual people of the peninsula and plateau: "Shar", if I recall correctly) and adding dumb new races like "Aasimar".
I think that the thing about the Pomarj doesn't exclude it being overrun with humanoids, it just recasts humanoids in that region as explicitly bandits, etc., and I think I'm okay with that, though at my table the humanoid dominance of the region will be obvious.
Mostly, I think I'm mainly interested in the new material rather than the changed material, so the culture notes are high on my list of things to actually use. For me, the material in the Gold Box/Folio editions remains supreme, and since it's all still available in PDF (and POD for the Folio edition) that remains possible for new players as well. Game mechanical stuff like classes and character levels might change for the use of 5E players, since level 11 Fighter in AD&D and level 11 Fighter in 5E are (at least potentially) different qualitative and quantitative measures.
Annoying as it may be I understand the need to rename Blackmoor to "Arn", since that is the result of outside forces unrelated to the actual setting.
The bit about warm jungles beyond the Land of Black Ice goes all the way back to the Folio edition, where it's said that the City of the Gods lies there and is surrounded by warm climes, and the Gold Box edition, where there is a mention of tales of jungles and such beyond the icy waste.
I'm quietly optimistic about this. This is introducing Greyhawk to a whole new generation of D&D players who started playing with 5E. If they like what they read in this DMG they can find the original works (the Folio, the gold box and the early modules) as PDFs on DriveThruRPG. I am not so sure about those saying WotC should have just left Greyhawk alone unless they are okay with Grehawk dying out as a campaign setting as the grognard players from the 1970s and 1980s start to pass away. If you want Greyhawk to carry on as a campaign setting into the future, it has to be presented to new players in new WotC releases.
How many new people became interested in the old Forgotten Realms lore after 5e release? Or, even better, how many people became interested in AD&D Ravenloft after the release of the Curse of Strahd? I highly doubt that those numbers are high enough to be considered. Most people don't care about old stuff, they want something new, even if new is just a chopped and "reimagined for better inclusivity" old.
Love the music on the Intro. Don't change it! And thanks for the review.
The Scarlet Brotherhood thing is strange, since the change does affect how they're perceived. Not just as racial/cultural supremacists, but ones with a distinct patriarchal bent. Given that they've always been an unambiguous villain faction, I don't see how that's out of line for them. They were already defined as hardcore bigots.
I guess "Brotherhood" wasn't _inclusive_ enough… 🥴
Now it's up to you to fill in all the blanks and make all the money that they don't want
I'm working on it! 😀
Minus WOTC's cut. It's like a Franchise model. They take care of the brand and you do the work.
@@nowthenzensounds like a good model to me since we get a cut
@@GreyhawkGrognard Campaign Guide - PURCHASED! KEEP EM COMING!
super fun that they have chosen Greyhawk for 5.5... Venjer shall now wander the Welkwood... seen hovering about the Jewel River and shouting at a group of hapless adventurers
I think using Greyhawk as the template for creating a campaign is an excellent approach. WotC is probably gun-shy around some of the spicier/interesting elements, but by providing a decent overview of Greyhawk, hopefully, it encourages more interest in the setting - and more traffic for this channel!
Marauders, indeed. In my GH the Pomarj is overrun by humanoid tribes characterized by dog-faced kobolds and pig-faced orcs. All of whom are evil, as Kurtulmak and Gruumsh intended, thank you very much!
No Blackmoor aye? I think that bothers me the most because we put out school of magick there...since the one in Niola Dra isn't really for commoners. Plus I always loved how the Druids in Blackmoor take the dead back to the Black Ice during funerary rites. It was always such a culture of its own up there. If they changed the name I wonder if it will still have the culture with the widows and Kettle Keep and all that good stuff?
It's there. It's just called Arn now. I think that's because the Dave Arneson estate holds the trademark on "Blackmoor", which is honestly a legitimate reason to change, plus they did manage to get in a little nod to Dave A.
Reviewing my 1e DMG (which I consider to have also focused on Greyhawk) and specifically the city encounter tables, I do find many non-human / non-demi-human denizens in Gygaxian cities, notably quite a few devils, demons, and undead wandering around town. In the notes it explains these are summoned by evil magic users and clerics. Most of the other monsters are disguised as humans (rakshasas, dopplegangers, and lycanthropes) Nevertheless, perhaps I need to accept that all the Dragon-born, tiefling, and goliath characters new players will expect to find in the setting will not be so out of place..? Happy Halloween!
My good aligned Greyhawk cities have laws forbidding use of magic within the city except by officials and members of a mage’s guild or accredited clergy from a local temple. Membership into the guild requires an annual fee paid to the city and helps offset the cost of any magical… mishaps. I never include magic shop exactly, but mage’s guild and temples can be contacted to create minor enchanted weapons, scrolls, or potions. Asking for anything quite specific to be crafted would be extremely time consuming and expensive, my players will need to go on adventures for the really good stuff!
Don't forget Yolande is now african american with a black afro. Completely in line with grey elves of course...
I was wondering how they'd shoehorn in the races into the setting... they obviously didn't care about the 'how', just their 'why'. I'm keeping to my Greyhawk where weird races are rare, or impossible. Want a tiefling? Either you're a planeswalker or you're the child of a wizard that forgot which circle to stand in when summoning a fiend. Aasimar? Dragonborn? Goliath? Don't exist.
it's actually not hard to imagine adding goliaths, given there are already half-giants like firbolgs, verbeeg and voadkyn. A race of hardy mountain people, rare but known to inhabit the rocky peaks that look down upon the lands of the Northern Barbarians, Perrenland, and the Sheldomar Valley.
I'm NOT saying to have to, just that you chose to, it shouldn't be difficult.
Dragonborn, OTOH, really need a whole damn story to justify their inclusion.
As a pedant for lore I _do_ appreciate them finally setting a hard starting date of 576 ᴄʏ (which means I won't have to alter the backstories for any of my 5e "Greyhawk" characters), _but_ I'm also perfectly fine with relying on the "old lore" for any campaign I may run.
Still, as much as I've disliked _many_ of WotC's decisions as of late, I _am_ happy that they've put some focus on the setting as they had back in 3e (which was largely what got me into "Greyhawk" in the first place).
Greyhawk was well described long time ago. I dont understand why to change the original. This greyhawk, for me will be other timeline. And with the time will be like starwars canteen and not humancentric. I will not spend money in wotc.
Did they printed the famous statement "Based on the original Dungeons & Dragons rules created by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson" in this new DMG? Or did WotC removed it again like the 2014 core rules book? I'm curious.
They didn't go out of their way to mess up the setting, and the writer seemed to treat the setting with respect.
Chris Perkins is a huge Greyhawk fan.
@@hawkname1234 hehe...
I've tweaked my greyhawk enough to not throw stones.
Unless those stones are warranted.
Im loving gh so far
Is the print larger than 1st Ed DMG? That would be great for us Grognards...
I'm so excited to see new players play in Greyhawk! I so great to see people experience the setting for the first time!
Yeah, the beginning of the destruction of Greyhawk.
They need to stick with Faerun and leave Greyhawk alone.
That depends if WotC is going to be releasing more Greyhawk products that deviate further from the original line. From what I understand WotC is now leaving further Greyhawk material to contributors to the DMs' Guild store. If so, I reckon this section in the DMG will reignite interest in Greyhawk among a new generation of D&D players and creators. And although the quality of stuff on the DMs' Guild can vary, I'm optimistic that at least some of it could be very good contributions to Greyhawk.
@@bathwizard We shall disagree. Now . . . go and try to convince some else.
@@bathwizard I don't think there's much of the classic Greyhawk left that they want to pillage. They took the Giants (to the Forgotten Realms) and Elemental Evil (also to the Realms.) They took the Forbidden City and Tomb of Horrors and put that in Chult (in the Realms.) They tried to re-do Saltmarsh and keep it in the Flanaess, but it didn't turn out well. My guess is that Chris Perkins really loves the World Of Greyhawk and wants to be able to go back to making Dungeon adventures set there after he leaves WotC, so he pushed to have the setting used as the example in the DMG he wrote and unlocked on the DMs Guild.
"It's not completely awful" is about as good as i could've hoped for in this day and age.
I considered buying the DMG purely for the Greyhawk section, cutting it out, then throwing the rest in the trash, but I think I won't even bother to do that. I still have all my 2014 rulebooks and my old 1/2 edition sourcebooks so I need absolutely nothing wotc offers.
I am not actually that fervently opposed to adding the newer races so long as i do it on my own terms; that is, creating a story/adventure reason for their presence and still keeping the setting primarily humanocentric overall.
In my opinion, Tieflings and Aasimar don't go against Greyhawk's humanocentric them, most of them are descended from planetouched humans, and planar pacts are a very common narrative in the original Greyhawk setting. It makes realistic sense for tieflings to be common in places like Iuz and the Horned Society and for Aasimar to be common in theocracies, and for both to be common in relation to the many demigods and hero-gods of the setting. The list of location rulerss is still mostly humans. I can list a general breakdown About 80% humans, 10% demihumans (a couple humanoids and one being a disguised dragon), 10% unknown or by committee. 2 are aasimar, 1 a tiefling, but I would consider them to be human descended unless otherwise stated. Finally there is Goliath freeholder in the Yeomanry. It's a democracy so they were voted in, but it makes sense for a Goliath to be there considering it's by the Jotens and the Crystalmysts of Old Keoland, which are defined by conflict against the giants. Dragonborn while not having a ruled location are also said to live in the uncharted mountains with a rivalry with Goliaths but trucing against greater threats, places that make logical sense rather than settlements.
All in all not much has changed there, most settlements are still human with a few demihumans. Dragonborn and Goliaths have clans in the wildernesses of the mountain ranges. And Tieflings and Aasimar make logical sense for the fiendish spread of Iuz and the Great Kingdom, the celestial touch of the good theocracies, and all the demigods roaming around.
@@JazzyBassy agree that teiflings in known fiend-infested areas and goliaths in mountain-adjacent areas makes perfect sense IF I choose to add/allow them in my game, but am still ambivalent about them being included at all. As for the dragonborn, I'd have them be native to the Far Eastern regions of Oerth rather than the Flanaess, and do an adventure inspired by the voyages of Admiral Zheng He. Imagine a dozen of giant flying Chinese-styled Dragonships floating down to land in the Selitan, disgorging their passengers to engage in discovery, trade, and diplomacy. Now, I would not make ALL the 'Asian' characters dragonborn, as I feel that that would lean too far into straight up racist tropes, but they'd be one among many races that make up the Empire's demographics- them, humans, elves, half-elves, and let's say hobgoblins due to the odd quirk of all the old art showing them using oriental-style armor and weapons.
Magic Item shops are fine for Gonzo settings or for the Players to unload minor magic items. How many +1 daggers or potions of Fire Resistance do you need?
I wish WotC would release the Greyhawk campaign material & sample adventures from the new DMG as a separate product.
They want you to use their existing products with this.
I find it amusing they remember the 80s Dungeons a Dragons cartoon was supposed set in Greyhawk after slapping a pointless cameo of the kids in a movie set in the forgotten realms.
I stick to the AD&D 1st Edition Greyhawk, with some 2nd Edition.
I don't care for any other Greyhawk.
I have extended the ruleset. My paladin/cleric 18/19 character has researched 28 cleric spells.
There are 23 of us in our play group.
We have converted most of Greyhawk to Lawful Good (extensive roleplaying) using the rules.
I have designed over 13 adventures.
This later stuff doesn't appeal to me.
St. Cuthbert rules!
Will use the campaign setting material you published to supplement what is in the DMG. Think I would rather put the Tiamat manipulati g chromatic Dragons in the background, after all that was previously done in Tyranny of Dragons for Forgotten Realms.
Does the city map follow the one in the 1989 City of Greyhawk boxed set, or is it completely different?
It's pretty much the same overall, but I confess I haven't done a close street-by-street comparison.
Does the early WotC obsession with putting a temple of Tharizdun on every street corner still continue? Or is Tharizdun in its proper place - lost and forgotten?
I still see this as a positive. I was surprised around 2016 or so when I went to Roll20 over COVID that everything was FR and many folk had never even heard of Greyhawk. if more players get into it, then great. Most likely they'll be looking at 'old school' DMs (at least RPGA era and before), older modules, older Gazetteers, etc. and a lot games will slip into older things. If players want to play Greyhawk, its easier for me to step in and say "Greyhawk only races" and skip dragonborn, Tieflings, etc. and give them older materials.
Give us NEW GREYHAWK HARD BACKS! With heavy lore and info and very very light on rules so we can just use the systems we love!
I wonder if the plan to do a more deeper dive in a book still to come .
Shocking, men changed to women and humans changed to demi humans.
At least the agenda is obvious.
My half goat, half turtle, half parrot artificer gnome rabbit is level 4302 and wears a silver cape as he flies over the land dispensing magic eggs to the clockwork dragon octopus people.
Wait - "large Gnome and Halfling population" in Selene? When did we get large Gnomes and Halflings? This is a step too far....🤣
😂
Part of me likes the name changes for the countries. In the same way Germany and Deutschland; Etats Unie and the United States; or Czechia, the Czech Republic and Bohemia are all names for the same countries. I like the idea that different people call the same country different names. The changes to the rulers and the population demographics, not so much.
Magic Item Shops ARE a stupid idea....just echoing back from my DM cloud.
Yes they are. Weren't allowed in our old campaigns by multiple GM fiat.
I have pawn shops but the PCs almost never bother with them. That's where you would find magic items , and it's likely the owner don't know what they are.
Before I watch the video, let me guess the changes: Mordenkainen is now trans, Bigby and Rary are lovers, Tenser is a tabaxi, Tasha runs the Circle of Eight, and the highest sin in Pholtus' religion is dead-naming someone. Oh, and orcs are still coded as Latino, just like in the Forgotten Realms. Sounds about right for current-day WokeC/Hasbeen.
Nothing more ugly than a bigot.
Is it as brief as the thinner version of 3rd editions greyhawk gazeteer?
Much briefer. Individual nations only get a single line in a table.
The Gran March is ruled by a dwarf!? Why?
Does the book give Iuz a statblock? I am a little nervous since they recently nerfed the hell out of his sister, Drelnza.
Meh, I don't care what they do now, I left when they dropped the "harlot chart" from AD&D and left it out of 2E....🤣
Saw you on my FB today in the friends line so I accepted.
I love the Greyhawk setting but I lost my Darlene maps is there anyway to get them now days?
I still have the books from the box set. And a handful of the modules. Keep the faith Grognard.
Same boat, lost my map. What's the plan?
Etsy has lots of great options
There are very nice Darlene maps on Amazon.
Several different sizes and materials.
I purchased a scaled down on fabric for my birthday.
Yea, no thanks. I'll stick to my 1E version
Let's be fully neutral (in a nod to classic Greyhawk worldview of balance).
1. This is a sample/example campaign setting. It is not intended as "canon" that must be retconned into existing/previous versions.
2. If you don't intend to make any changes to your own Greyhawk campaigns, then there is no need to buy the DMG for this content.
3. If you're a long-time DM who has plenty of other worldbuilding/campaign tools and experience, this isn't for you. It's for new DMs who have never tried to build a campaign of their own before. Again, it's offered as an *example*.
4. The biggest thing that fans of existing Greyhawk should focus on is that Chris Perkins said WOTC has no plans to create any other content for Greyhawk -- that's why they made it available for content creators on the DMs Guild. They want to encourage more DMs to get into making content and encourage them to look at and use the campaign that "started it all". There are a hell of a lot of new DMs and people new to D&D who have *zero* knowledge of the origins of people like Mordenkainen or who Otiluke and Bigby are.
5. IMHO, there is no point in viewing this 2024 "campaign example" as a change to anything about established Greyhawk works and lore. I have dozens of Greyhawk publications, from the original folio to Oerth magazine, to Living Greyhawk, to Anna Meyer's maps, to Grognard's content (e.g. his Rift modules) and no one needs to change anything just because an example campaign was printed in the 2024 book.
6. My 2 cents: do what recovery programs like AA tell members to do: take what you like and leave the rest.
Knowing the map is 576 is interesting. I'm debating looking at running an old-school game (1e or C&C) in Greyhawk but the gold box is like $200 on ebay. Maybe I can get someone who has the 2024 DMG and has no plans to use greyhawk to give me the map so I can just POD the folio or gold box and substitute the map.
IIRC they did change the name of blackmoor (presumably due to something with Arneson's estate). Comparing the maps they changed Plains of the Paynims (that one I kinda get since paynim means "heathen") and changed the barbarian/nomad names to what their actual tribes are called (which Im personally okay with)
So forgive me for asking stupid questions, but why is a setting in a reference book? I mean isn't the DMG supposed to be schooling the DM on rules to run the game?
Well, I guess it could've been worse (not that GH was my pick of settings).
If I wasn't out in the sticks I'd offer to run audio for you gratis..
Thanks for the video broham!
They teach "how to" in the book and one of the topic it's creating a setting and first adventures, and the Greyhawk is a exemple of a skeletonesque setting you can use and "upgrade" as your campaign goes. The cross reference what and how in the hole 5-6 chapters. It's a really good book for a new DM and even for a experienced one. Of course some grognards won't like and point errors or absurd, but for me, and my players, we are excited to use this with old stuff for a new campaign next year.
@@renanrossi5434Yours is the right attitude. Lots of grognard comments on this video.
@@simonfernandes6809 cute. It was an honest question in good faith. Not older, experienced players, no no, it's time for euphemism. Cute and clever.
@@renanrossi5434 ah I see, so is GH the only sample or do they work through other examples in these multiple chapters? I kinda wonder if they focus detail on a given place, and then demonstrate by overview with the rest. Well as a worthless "grognard" who has nothing worthwhile to contribute and hasn't learned anything by studying physical anthropology and pulling apart previous settings to rewrite them for many, many sets of players to experience, I'll shuffle off and wait for the full review.
@@PvtSchlock only exemple and just a skeleton with hints of ideas. Don't know about anthropology or what people do, I just want good ideias and images that inspire my games and the games of my friends. People who cares about this changes don't have nothing in commun with D&D since, at least 4th edition. They don't even play the game. Don't know why they care so much about it. The old stuff it's still there and now they can write about it (legaly) the way they wanted. It's a win win for me. I'm playing this game since early 2000 and it's the more exciting years: you can have anything, from anywhere from anyone in just a click.
Magic item shops takes the magic out of the world and makes it a product.
@ Yep, make magic items a commodity. Very magical indeed.
Been waiting for your review as soon as I found out from Chris Perkins that it was set in GreyHawk, I might have to buy this just because now lol
I'm right there with you on magic shops 👍
how is the map ? ^^
It's decent enough, but since it's a single page it's necessarily small. Not as nice as the Darlene map, of course, but I'd say better than the LG map.
@@GreyhawkGrognard oh wow. so it's not a full folded map like the darlene map, dungeon magazines map or living greyhawk gazeteer map?
@@Marpaws Sorry, I meant that it's a single sheet, not an 8.5x11 page. It's about the same size as one of the Darlene map sheets, maybe a smidgen smaller.
@@GreyhawkGrognard thanks !!!
Tiger Nomads and Wolf Nomads are mentioned in the Northern Flanaess. They just don't put those names on the map.
By the way, I appreciate you giving the Greyhawk section a fair shake. I'm anxious to get the physical DMG so I can see it and look at the actual map.
You and I are on the same page when it comes to magic item shops--the best way in the world to ruin your game
I just don't need a new summary of Greyhawk...especially with modern-day WoTC tweaking. No thanks. I have plenty of the real, old material.
The dragon plot isn't bad because it's new. It's bad because is boring. Why are evil dragon a problem now? Because the Realms have a big adventure with Tiamat as the villain. We don't need the same conflicts in every world. Greyhawk has its own evils, many mentioned in that book. This is simply lazy.
Probably in reference to the Red Hand of Doom from 3e, which did use Greyhawk as its default setting, and it led to 4e's Scales of War. However, while looking at the era of 3e Greyhawk, I can't help but feel that for dragon conflicts, the red demonic greatwyrm Ashardalon and his "adventure path" starting with Sunless Citadel and ending in Bastion of Broken Souls are WAY more iconic to Greyhawk than Tiamat, and if they are gonna go with Tiamat, they should at least talk about Dragotha of the Age of Worms Adventure Path and Return to White Plume Mountain, who was a consort to Tiamat, was slain by her for forming an alliance with Kyuss, and then made into Kyuss's undead servant. Ashardalon does have an entry in the lore glossary at least. But I feel they should have cast their net wider with going over the plots of some of the iconic dragons of Greyhawk adventures (Mostly in 3e, where they were characters in their own right)
Dragon lore was as its peak in 3e. I may not like the three pages stats, but the Draconomicon, Dragon Magic and even Dragons of Faerûn (adapted to my campaign) are the base for many adventures on my world.
Not as bad as I thought it would be, but also adding exactly nothing of value. Hopefully it doesn't do too much damage to the hobby (the best that can be said for WotC/5e products) With luck a few people will start googling and find your videos, drivethru copies of the gold box, etc.
Scourge of Worlds game?
Love it, its good to see Greyhawk back and welcome many new players ! Cant wait to have my copy !
So they give you a map and descriptions of the GreyRealms huh? That's just super. 🙄 Gotta have that multiverse so they can make that Modenkainen magic card (though the Pinkertons card is best as it steals a player's deck).
I do like your guide better what i've read so far.
Joe, there’s not much chance I’ll ever buy another WotC book, but I’d really like to know what you think about the maps. Mike Schley will probably put them up in his web store if he hasn’t already.
Not really too keen on a magic shop either. I feel like it flies in the face of the sword & sorcery tone that Greyhawk has where magic is largely mistrusted. Maybe I'm off base with that.
None of the 5e crap fitd in Greyhawk and has no place there. Let them cack up Forgotten Realms, or Dragonlance.
Let me guess...Mordenkainen is transgender, "Lordship of the Isles" is now the "Ladyship of the Isles", the "Theocracy of the Pale-Is-Stale" is an evil patriarchy...(Oh crap, the Scarlett Brotherhood is now the Scarlett Order, seriously. They beat me to it.)
Someone clearly did his research for this section. I suspect most of the changes came from the suits and not the authors. May these people get more freedom in a future release and we may get decent additions.
A man can dream...
Kind of fruitless to have a "Save Greyhawk" champaign when it is in the DMG
At the risk of hubris, I like to think that campaign is why it is in the DMG in the first place, at least a tiny bit. The whole Greyhawk community has been vocal for years. The DMG reference could just be a response to that.
@GreyhawkGrognard that's fair
Dont support Hasbro.
Dont give money to people who hate you.
I wonder if the Scarlet Order is as racist as the Scarlet Brotherhood.
It's not bad, but it's not good either. It is very WotC. Otto the dwarf bard is definitely dancing a jig about it.
As bad as I thought. I hated the retconed stuff.
At least they set Greyhawk in the right timeline of 576cy. I would consider this greyhawk chapter just a light review of the setting. To encourage players to getting the actual World of Greyhawk box set and or Greyhawk Grognards guide
I have no intention of getting 6e and this book seals that decision. Adding nonsense races to a setting that didn’t have them is typical wotc. People interested in using Greyhawk should use original material and your book.
I'm still mostly against this new edition, I don't know... I hum and hah... should I buy the DMG at least? It's really only be for the Greyhawk stuff...
This isn't real Greyhawk.
Thinking I'd only really want the map(s) out of it. Maybe some will sell separately on eBay or similar.
Well we all knew that they were going to ruin Greyhawk