Yes. And it took several seasons to get her out of the sexualized catsuits and into a proper uniform (although the blue dress she wore wasn't that bad).
I loved three things about this episode: 1) Troi getting to do something cool for once; 2) Toreth. I love it when an antagonist is actually completely reasonable and has motivations that make sense - they're just on the other side; 3) Stefan DeSeve - this character feels interestingly plausible and reminds me of a real type of person - the quiet, but intense, frustrated young man who adopts a fringe political view
I wonder if they would have done better in the beginning if Troi was a psychiatrist rather than a psychologist, and had a professional relationship with Doctor Crusher that mirrored the one Riker had with Picard. As a psychiatrist, she would have a medical doctor's degree and be on Crusher's staff, possibly second in command of the medical department.
She also voiced Matriarch Benezia in the original Mass Effect, where she was a good guy who ended up mind controlled by the same thing that corrupted the guy she was trying to convince to stop doing evil crap. She had enough willpower to break free for a few moments to explain things and allow the player to kill her willingly in the end. I knew from the very first scene where I heard her voice that I was in for a treat while playing that game.
I love episodes where Troi actually gets to be strong and powerful. Sirtis is a fantastic actor and it's ironic that my favourite of her roles is in another Star-related series! (Her appearances as a Russian scientist on Stargate SG-1 were delightful.)
It's a good thing this was written way before Section 31 or you'd have them all over a plot like this being arbitrarily evil and turning out the entire mission is really about smuggling Romulan cocaine stuffed up the senator's butt or something.
IIRC originally Marina Sirtis was up for the role of the Enterprise security chief (she had experience with fight choreography from playing a villain in the film _The Wicked Lady_ ) and Denise Crosby was up for the counsellor, but at some point in the casting process their roles were switched. I sometimes wonder what the series would have been like with that switched casting. Sirtis is quite good at being domineering, like here, other TNG episodes where she's possessed by some alien, Demona, Benezia, etc. and it's a shame playing Troi rarely let her exercise that.
This episode really suggests that Troi would have been so much better as a Star Fleet intel officer. Star Fleet would totally have a friendly version that merges diplomacy with the ability to don the cloak and grab their dagger if need be. She might be the official intel branch with perhaps cutout connections to Section 31, and possibly would fully integrate with them in time of war.
I've said this before. I love your sense of humour but you also have a talent for breaking down episodes with deeper plot points. The Romulan episodes have been great.
I wonder if seminars are still lame excuses to go on a business trip with seminar food and a seminar hotel room and come back with seminar swag and a huge seminar binder you'll never look at again.
Crazy Idea for a Lower Decks Sandwich. Between the first two episodes of season two of the series, you do the re-upload of your TNG Lower Decks episode review.
Weirdly enough there's another Trek reviewer I'm watching who is working through Voyager and he just covered one with Troi in it, and I've not watched TNG properly since it was originally broadcast, but originally I thought Troi seemed more competent when she wasn't on TNG, but now I realize that she's competent when she's actually in uniform. Even when it's not a Starfleet one.
I really like this episode. It's a great Troi story. Sadly, Sirtis was (as all the women seemed to be) often given a poor script by writers and producers, but she's given an excellent role in this and Sirtis plays it very very well. In other episodes, when Troi isn't given the "love story" and given a good, meaty storyline and script, she's always brilliant. I like it when Trek gives its enemies a full, proper episode, and it's great to see Romulan intrigue and politics. I would've given it an 8/10. Just my opinion. 🙂 Great vid.
Sirtis and McFadden could have been replaced by mannequins for the movies. They were given nothing to do. I was so happy to see Sirtis get a few cameos on Voyager. Even if it was just a couple scenes it gave her character some depth.
@@tbeller80 Yeah, that's true. I'm just trying to think of something! But it's still better than just crashing the saucer section of the Enterprise-D.......
@@BintyMcFrazzlesin Generations she took part in Worf's promotion, got to console Picard when he got the news, and crash LANDED the saucer section after having to literally jump into the driver's seat. Having Riker say "good job" would have done so much for her character's legacy.
Apparently there is a claim in the ether that, while TNG was being developed, Troi's position was supposed to be a diplomatic liaison. AKA that person who tells the foreign secretary the ins and outs of how other peoples and cultures act. Becoming a counselor/therapist was a late-stage Roddenberry utopian-esque idea.
That...would have worked out so much better in the long run. I think Gene was just wanting more catsuit-wearing eye candy on the bridge. It's sad, really... the more I find out about Gene Roddenberry he appears not to be an idealistic visionary as much as he does a dime-a-dozen sleazy Hollywood producer.
Currently watching through TNG with my wife, who is a big classic sf fan (we read David Brin's uplift war together on our honeymoon). She'd not bothered with Startrek before because firstly she'd rather read, and secondly, she mistrusted all the hype. One thing that's interesting is that coming to TNG for the first time she has very different opinions of certain characters, especially Wesley (who she generally likes), Riker, (who she generally does not like), and Troi. she absolutely loved the episode "the child", not seeing it as a creepy rape/abortion allegory, with overdone possession, but the touching story of a mother baring a child in trying circumstances, deciding to keep that child despite the opinions of others (Troi is offered the possibility of termination and rejects it), and then suffering the loss of that child who turns out to be an angellic alien. Indeed her only major criticism is that such an experience should've left a lasting mark on Troi, which of course it didn't since this is episodic tv. While my wife doesn't like Troi's bitchy moments, she does like her moments of genuine empathy, and her relationship with her mother. So it'll be very interesting to see what she makes of this episode, where, as you said, Troi is absolutely outside her comfort zone and very much rises to the occasion!
Huh. In the German dub, N'vek didn't abduct Troi for this mission, he recruited her. This is the first time I ever hear of her being abducted in the original. 🤔
Everyone knows when Tom and B'Elanna are having sexual relations on Voyager. But Troy can scream about committing acts of "treason" on a romulan ship without anyone noticing?
Troi did seem to wind up being a victim of either rape or mind rape more than was reasonable. It was as much a TNG trope as "O'Brien must suffer" was a DS9 trope. Troi taking charge of a situation was a welcome relief. As we see when they were hit by the quantum filament, Troi has the rank of Lt. Commander. She later tested to reach the rank of full Commander in the episode where they found the Iconian gateway. I don't think the writers really knew how to utilize her character to the best effect. Crusher was better utilized, but also had a few scripts where they could have written her better. It makes me wonder if the writing staff had much experience in writing strong female characters in a sci-fi setting.
Has anyone else ever wondered why so many Vulcan and Romulan women -- members of green-blooded species -- wear red lipstick? Among humans, the whole point of wearing red lipstick is to indicate the human has good blood circulation (to their face), signalling fitness as a mate. Shouldn't Vulcan and Romulan women favor green lipstick? I first started wondering that in The Search for Spock, when the ancient Vulcan priestess had blood-red lipstick.
Another interesting note about this episode is that Worf's receives a new hairstyle in this episode. His hair is now longer and tied back and would keep this hairstyle for the remainder of his appearances in TNG as well as the films, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Star Trek: Picard season 3.
The Romulans already have to use the translator, otherwise the crewmembers from the Northern Continent couldn't understand the ones from the Western Archipelago or the Southern Isthmus. (Can I have my No-Prize now?)
@@digitaljanus That's not a very good explanation, since they're essentially a Vulcan colony rather than some sort of natives. Point is, the original colony would have likely had a _lingua franca_ that became 'Romulanese.' Then, between media and government, even as the language continued to evolve, all the locales would still be speaking the same language.
It's funny you claim that Troi is useless because Star Trek is an "optimistic" show. Well, if we're so optimistic, why have a security officer? Optimism goes both ways. If we don't *need* a counselor to keep the crew emotionally or spiritually healthy, we shouldn't *need* a security detail to keep them physically safe.
Chuck is being polite: Roddenberry indicated that interpersonal conflict in the Federation was a thing of the past and in the “optimistic future” of Star Trek everyone was evolved past that. And that people accepted death, and other major traumas as just “a part of life.” Hint: The primary purpose of counselors is mediating interpersonal conflict, and helping people overcome trauma.
It's clear the crew needed a counsellor, because every other member of the main cast plus Guinan basically plays that role at some point! Only Troi was never allowed to by the scripts because she could only spout psychobabble at people in need instead of actually talking to them. Sirtis was always better than the material they gave her.
This episode shows how good of an actress Marina Sirtis actually is and how criminally underwritten and underutilized Troi was throughout the series.
Agree!
Yes. And it took several seasons to get her out of the sexualized catsuits and into a proper uniform (although the blue dress she wore wasn't that bad).
Ugh. 'Criminally underwritten' is not a thing. Bad writing is not a crime people, no matter how popular it becomes to call it that.
@@strategicsage7694 I'm sorry you don't understand colloquial phraseology. 🤷♀️
@@danij5055 There's a difference between colloquialism and falsehood.
I loved three things about this episode:
1) Troi getting to do something cool for once;
2) Toreth. I love it when an antagonist is actually completely reasonable and has motivations that make sense - they're just on the other side;
3) Stefan DeSeve - this character feels interestingly plausible and reminds me of a real type of person - the quiet, but intense, frustrated young man who adopts a fringe political view
It's an excellent episode, in my opinion.
I love that Chuck went the whole review without mentioning - maybe even noticing! - that the Romulan who grabbed Troi was just named Kevin in reverse.
🤣🤣 I did not know this!!
I wonder if they would have done better in the beginning if Troi was a psychiatrist rather than a psychologist, and had a professional relationship with Doctor Crusher that mirrored the one Riker had with Picard. As a psychiatrist, she would have a medical doctor's degree and be on Crusher's staff, possibly second in command of the medical department.
Ooh, I like that.
Maybe, but Crusher isn't any less a non-entity, merely swapping in her mommy status for some (but only some!) of Troi's bizarre alien sex.
As for Marina Sirtis acting range she also voiced Demona, a regular villian on "Gargoyles" where, imo, she did a fine job there too.
Demona and Xanathos were both so much fun and I think they had fun voice acting them
She and Frakes did an AMAZING job on that show!
@@SpartanSniper3 Brent Spiner too.
She also voiced Matriarch Benezia in the original Mass Effect, where she was a good guy who ended up mind controlled by the same thing that corrupted the guy she was trying to convince to stop doing evil crap. She had enough willpower to break free for a few moments to explain things and allow the player to kill her willingly in the end.
I knew from the very first scene where I heard her voice that I was in for a treat while playing that game.
I love episodes where Troi actually gets to be strong and powerful. Sirtis is a fantastic actor and it's ironic that my favourite of her roles is in another Star-related series! (Her appearances as a Russian scientist on Stargate SG-1 were delightful.)
Holy crap so Chakwas and Benzia had a face off in TNG way before Mass Effect 🤯
Oh damn, I never realized that was Chakwas' VA!
"I was frozen today" strangely I did see that coming.
It's a good thing this was written way before Section 31 or you'd have them all over a plot like this being arbitrarily evil and turning out the entire mission is really about smuggling Romulan cocaine stuffed up the senator's butt or something.
Another fine performance by Carolyn Seymour.
IIRC originally Marina Sirtis was up for the role of the Enterprise security chief (she had experience with fight choreography from playing a villain in the film _The Wicked Lady_ ) and Denise Crosby was up for the counsellor, but at some point in the casting process their roles were switched. I sometimes wonder what the series would have been like with that switched casting. Sirtis is quite good at being domineering, like here, other TNG episodes where she's possessed by some alien, Demona, Benezia, etc. and it's a shame playing Troi rarely let her exercise that.
Looking back at Crosby hamming it up with the security matters, I'd love to see her counselling sessions.
This episode really suggests that Troi would have been so much better as a Star Fleet intel officer. Star Fleet would totally have a friendly version that merges diplomacy with the ability to don the cloak and grab their dagger if need be. She might be the official intel branch with perhaps cutout connections to Section 31, and possibly would fully integrate with them in time of war.
"Diplomatic Advisor" would have been a good title - or even "Ship's Ambassador" to take a page out of Voyager
As far as Planets of Hats go, at least the Romulans' hat is less dysfunctional than the Klingons' - low bar though that is.
I've said this before. I love your sense of humour but you also have a talent for breaking down episodes with deeper plot points. The Romulan episodes have been great.
Enterpise is under attack - Troi "I sense hostility" . . .
Not saying much, but easily the best Troi episode.
One of the best episodes of TNG and it makes you really respect the character of Couneslor Troy. Great acting and what a great Romulan she made too!
I wonder if seminars are still lame excuses to go on a business trip with seminar food and a seminar hotel room and come back with seminar swag and a huge seminar binder you'll never look at again.
Hands down, the best Troi episode period.
The Romulans were actually interesting on TNG. And had some depth to their characterization. They seem to have reverted to type in the later shows.
The tragedy of Nemesis is that it failed to be about the Romulans.
Trois empathic abilities were actually useful. Usually she uses it to state the obvious as the person is in full rage mode. “I sense you’re upset…”
Sirtis is pretty great as Matriarch Benzia in Mass Effect 1 video game. Her personality is similar to this episode.
I wish I had a Lieutenant Multitask! ;)
Thanks for Reuploading - hail the overlord!
I am using the phrase "summon the girl balls" from now on, including imperatively.
Troi getting her fascist freak turn on certainly made wonders for her Starfleet career .
Crazy Idea for a Lower Decks Sandwich. Between the first two episodes of season two of the series, you do the re-upload of your TNG Lower Decks episode review.
Weirdly enough there's another Trek reviewer I'm watching who is working through Voyager and he just covered one with Troi in it, and I've not watched TNG properly since it was originally broadcast, but originally I thought Troi seemed more competent when she wasn't on TNG, but now I realize that she's competent when she's actually in uniform. Even when it's not a Starfleet one.
I'm a bartender. We're not therapists, dude.
I really like this episode.
It's a great Troi story. Sadly, Sirtis was (as all the women seemed to be) often given a poor script by writers and producers, but she's given an excellent role in this and Sirtis plays it very very well. In other episodes, when Troi isn't given the "love story" and given a good, meaty storyline and script, she's always brilliant.
I like it when Trek gives its enemies a full, proper episode, and it's great to see Romulan intrigue and politics.
I would've given it an 8/10. Just my opinion. 🙂
Great vid.
Sirtis and McFadden could have been replaced by mannequins for the movies. They were given nothing to do. I was so happy to see Sirtis get a few cameos on Voyager. Even if it was just a couple scenes it gave her character some depth.
@@tbeller80 Yes, they did. Troi got a little bit in First Contact. but not much.
@@BintyMcFrazzles Not sure "be drunk for a minute and then have two more lines the rest of the movie" is worth celebrating
@@tbeller80 Yeah, that's true. I'm just trying to think of something! But it's still better than just crashing the saucer section of the Enterprise-D.......
@@BintyMcFrazzlesin Generations she took part in Worf's promotion, got to console Picard when he got the news, and crash LANDED the saucer section after having to literally jump into the driver's seat. Having Riker say "good job" would have done so much for her character's legacy.
By cosmic coincidence I just watched this episode
Actually it was Qs will😂
Troi's accent comes through
Alternative title: Face/Off
This Romulan crew member thing had better not become a fetish or I'm history!
Always been one of my favorites
Fun fact. Don Davis did the music in this episode. The guy who did the music in The Matrix trilogy.
Hey wow, another episode in which Troi is violated, mentally or physically. Would you look at that.
Still waiting for an explanation HOW SHE SPEAKS ROMULANESE.
Tech😂
Apparently there is a claim in the ether that, while TNG was being developed, Troi's position was supposed to be a diplomatic liaison. AKA that person who tells the foreign secretary the ins and outs of how other peoples and cultures act. Becoming a counselor/therapist was a late-stage Roddenberry utopian-esque idea.
That...would have worked out so much better in the long run. I think Gene was just wanting more catsuit-wearing eye candy on the bridge. It's sad, really... the more I find out about Gene Roddenberry he appears not to be an idealistic visionary as much as he does a dime-a-dozen sleazy Hollywood producer.
@@All2Meme I don't think he was dime-a-dozen at all. He was a visionary as he saw how immature humanity can be - his vice was just sex.
A realy great Episode
besides the gaping Plot Holes
Currently watching through TNG with my wife, who is a big classic sf fan (we read David Brin's uplift war together on our honeymoon).
She'd not bothered with Startrek before because firstly she'd rather read, and secondly, she mistrusted all the hype.
One thing that's interesting is that coming to TNG for the first time she has very different opinions of certain characters, especially Wesley (who she generally likes), Riker, (who she generally does not like), and Troi.
she absolutely loved the episode "the child", not seeing it as a creepy rape/abortion allegory, with overdone possession, but the touching story of a mother baring a child in trying circumstances, deciding to keep that child despite the opinions of others (Troi is offered the possibility of termination and rejects it), and then suffering the loss of that child who turns out to be an angellic alien. Indeed her only major criticism is that such an experience should've left a lasting mark on Troi, which of course it didn't since this is episodic tv.
While my wife doesn't like Troi's bitchy moments, she does like her moments of genuine empathy, and her relationship with her mother. So it'll be very interesting to see what she makes of this episode, where, as you said, Troi is absolutely outside her comfort zone and very much rises to the occasion!
Cool to hear. I have to say, when i now rewatch TNG is skip most of her mothers scenes. But for the one with Mother and Daughter.
Huh. In the German dub, N'vek didn't abduct Troi for this mission, he recruited her. This is the first time I ever hear of her being abducted in the original. 🤔
Lt. Multitasker XD
this and ds9 ep when Kiri is cardasan should be constrasted and compared :D
Everyone knows when Tom and B'Elanna are having sexual relations on Voyager. But Troy can scream about committing acts of "treason" on a romulan ship without anyone noticing?
Troi did seem to wind up being a victim of either rape or mind rape more than was reasonable. It was as much a TNG trope as "O'Brien must suffer" was a DS9 trope. Troi taking charge of a situation was a welcome relief. As we see when they were hit by the quantum filament, Troi has the rank of Lt. Commander. She later tested to reach the rank of full Commander in the episode where they found the Iconian gateway. I don't think the writers really knew how to utilize her character to the best effect. Crusher was better utilized, but also had a few scripts where they could have written her better. It makes me wonder if the writing staff had much experience in writing strong female characters in a sci-fi setting.
content: 7db. Intro: 93db
Wait, that was Dr. Chakwas?!
Has anyone else ever wondered why so many Vulcan and Romulan women -- members of green-blooded species -- wear red lipstick? Among humans, the whole point of wearing red lipstick is to indicate the human has good blood circulation (to their face), signalling fitness as a mate. Shouldn't Vulcan and Romulan women favor green lipstick? I first started wondering that in The Search for Spock, when the ancient Vulcan priestess had blood-red lipstick.
Another interesting note about this episode is that Worf's receives a new hairstyle in this episode. His hair is now longer and tied back and would keep this hairstyle for the remainder of his appearances in TNG as well as the films, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Star Trek: Picard season 3.
so did the Romulans notice that Troi wasn't speaking any of their native languages, and was speaking a federation language through the translator
The Romulans already have to use the translator, otherwise the crewmembers from the Northern Continent couldn't understand the ones from the Western Archipelago or the Southern Isthmus. (Can I have my No-Prize now?)
🤫 maybe they won’t notice 😊
@@digitaljanushonest question: does the translator suppress the sound coming out of your mouth?
The IJN used English as their command language till very short before WW II
@@digitaljanus That's not a very good explanation, since they're essentially a Vulcan colony rather than some sort of natives. Point is, the original colony would have likely had a _lingua franca_ that became 'Romulanese.' Then, between media and government, even as the language continued to evolve, all the locales would still be speaking the same language.
It's funny you claim that Troi is useless because Star Trek is an "optimistic" show. Well, if we're so optimistic, why have a security officer? Optimism goes both ways. If we don't *need* a counselor to keep the crew emotionally or spiritually healthy, we shouldn't *need* a security detail to keep them physically safe.
Chuck is being polite: Roddenberry indicated that interpersonal conflict in the Federation was a thing of the past and in the “optimistic future” of Star Trek everyone was evolved past that. And that people accepted death, and other major traumas as just “a part of life.”
Hint: The primary purpose of counselors is mediating interpersonal conflict, and helping people overcome trauma.
It's clear the crew needed a counsellor, because every other member of the main cast plus Guinan basically plays that role at some point! Only Troi was never allowed to by the scripts because she could only spout psychobabble at people in need instead of actually talking to them. Sirtis was always better than the material they gave her.