To me, a CD recorded to a quality cassette such as a Maxell XLII or XLII-S on one of my higher end decks provides the most pleasing sound. The recording adds depth and warmth to the music. Of course, this is my opinion.
The cassettes can imitate everything cassettes { especially type II and IV } recorded in hi-end deck from a hi-end turtable sounds like the turntable and so the same when recorded from CDpalyers I love cassettes very much along with LPs and CDs I wish the Brands start building cassette decks again with the standards of 80s of course .
Vinyl is definitely an experience. It is pleasing to the senses. It's physical, visual, old vinyl records smell a certain way. I don't personally have a vinyl system, I've been all digital since the beginning of my audiophile interest...But I can remember my parents' system and the smell and sights of going through all those vinyls and putting a record on, and the warm midbass sound of those old 60's and 70's bands. To me its like the cigar smoking or pipe smoking of the audiophile world. It hasn't happened yet, but I know that one day when I am older, the kids are grown, and I have some money to spend...Vinyl will be a component of my "end all" system. There's a perfectly tuned finished basement room, den or man-cave in my future with a high-end stereo system including vinyl just waiting for me to build it...
"It's physical, visual, old vinyl records smell a certain way." Indeed :-) And the covers of vinyl albums are much easier to read when your eyesight begins to fail when you are in your dotage. I surprised myself a couple of years ago when I purchased a couple of reissues of my favourites on high quality vinyl for my birthday. (A Freddie King album and Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue", the best selling jazz album of all time). Mind you, I immediately digitised them so I could hear them in as pristine condition as possible. One of the downsides of vinyl is the groove deforms each time you play the record. High frequency content moves the stylus fast enough to increase the temperature of the vinyl closer to melting point.
warc8us with a properly set up cartridge* & a half decent t/table, tonearm & phono stage ...vinyl is King! & rules high in superiority over cd's. I.M.Humble.O. (*many folk just screw a cartridge into the middle of the headshell's adjustability range & nearly always (without lottery-winning luck) get lousy reproduction results) May your dream system with vinyl come in to fruition.
Vinyl is an old technology but nothing as yet compares. Kind of like comparing film photography with digital, the resolution of 100 plus years old film photos is incredible.
If digital was mastered correctly it would be better than vinyl. Unfortunately the music industry is mastering digital to sound good in the car and on portable bluetooth speakers. There is a lot of music that sounds best on the Vinyl version, pre-90's music in particular. For convenience's sake I wish this wasn't the case.
yes thats TRUE .. im going to by a AR 15 automatic riffle and enter in the digital mastering enginer congres and do a massive killing and when they prison me i wil say: it worth!! and began to laugh and they will bail jaim me for eternity and 10.000 in hell probaly lol
If you buy the old versions of the CDs (late eighties, early 90s) of older albums from the 60s, 70s/80s etc, the CD is not brick walled. Although newer remasters of CDs aren't as loud as they were in the early 2000s. Things are getting better.
Paul I'm with you. I had been working as a recording engineer for years and recently up skilled to work as an acoustic consultant and I noticed from about 2009 onwards were when the biggest advancements in digital audio came about, yes many system sounded pretty good before that but in the last 12 years it's really gotten very good.
Dunno if you guys gives a damn but if you guys are stoned like me during the covid times then you can watch pretty much all the new movies on instaflixxer. Have been binge watching with my gf for the last months :)
Vinyl is a lot of trouble but worth it, as I discovered when I bought a CD of Learning to crawl to play in the car. Did not sound as good as my 30 odd year old record, so I got more serious about vinyl for the first time in years. Digital is great but vinyl has a soul
Paul, you are so right regarding this and you covered it so elegantly. I own turntable, cd and a great streaming device and I love all of them. Like you said a lot of this is in the hands of the sound engineers and the mastering process. I have CD that sound better than albums and albums that sound better than cd. I have music that hasn't been reissued on cd and the same for vinyl. It is about excepting the differences between the two and realizing that both have one purpose and that is the enjoyment of the listener.
Its all good, as long as the chain is good. I have streaming, CDs, DVD-A, SACD, BD, Vinyl. I prefer Vinyl, as long as I want to get up every 15 mins to change sides, LPs. But one has to do the work for Vinyl to sound good. First and foremost, you have to keep the Vinyl clean. I keep a spray bottle of antiseptic alcohol, brush and lint free rag handy. Spray the LP as its turning on the platter, then brush it, then dry it. Snaps, Crackles, Pops..gone.... And you most certainly need a good TT/cartridge and phono amp. I'm not saying one needs to buy a $15K TT.....my Marantz TT-15S1 ($1499) with the Clearaudio Virtuoso v2 cartridge > Parasound phono amp is an exceptional Vinyl setup. Are some LPs better or worse than others...most certainly...some LPs I bought as a kid, I will never play again...the way they were recorded were terrible.
"First and foremost, you have to keep the Vinyl clean. I keep a spray bottle of antiseptic alcohol, brush and lint free rag handy." While cleanliness is goodliness where vinyl is concerned, I'm a little chary of alcohol on vinyl as it's probably too aggressive. I only use it on LPs so filthy the following is insufficient. I use a non-ionic detergent wiped onto the vinyl surface with a well-worn, super-soft toothbrush. Then I rinse it off with distilled water; you don't want residue from hard water. Then I air-dry the records on a document-sorting rack. The idea is to then keep the surface clean with an anti-static record cleaning brush. I purchase most of my music second-hand.
I enjoy both formats! Depends on what sound I'm in the mood for at any certain time! If I want unmatched clarity, I go to CD, if I want want warm and natural, I go to vinyl! But I am obviously more partial to LP's! I usually have an album in BOTH formats!
Great response to that question, I have a lot of vinyl from the past and tons of CD's also, I remember purchasing one of the fist Sony CD players when I was in high school I guess it was in the early 80's or so and I was the first on the block to have one and everyone came over to see what it was all about. They had all the test and demo CD's that would play the very high freq sounds and lows for demo, like running your finger across a comb etc. I think the firs CD I purchased was by Loverboy. Still have it and still have that Sony player and use it to this day just for in my ham radio shack here. I have a turntable but have not hooked it up in years but still have a lot of my vinyl.
Oh and I know a lot of the early CD's were just remastered from the original recordings or vinyl versions I guess to put on CD so didn't always sound good like you say but some of the new ones started sounding pretty good when they got it figured out, ha.
I tested an old CD player and the highs sound super aweful. Same goes for pop songs mastered in the 90s (when the first DAWs came along). I prefer modern remasters and productions for that reason alone. Though the loudness war sucks.
I have quite a descent setup so I like all formats. But for me vinyl has got that extra bit of angel dust an extra bit of sparkle its more 3d. Just saying
This sounds like one of your most honest responses I'm not saying you lied at all but this one just is so real and you are very real and trustworthy and honest keep up the good work all about the music let's not get caught up with the formats you are right
I have a simple rule. If I purchase music, I try to do buy the medium I would have bought when the music first became available. If I buy music made in the 70's it's in album or vinyl format. If I buy music made in early '80's, I opt for a cassette because that's when I first started driving and had a cassette player in my car. If I buy music made '85 to '05 it's typically a CD format. If I buy music made in last 10-15 years it's a digital download...or, no purchase at all...just use my streaming services. For me it's about the predominate experience during the era the the music was made. Having said all that...there is something about holding an album in your hands. It's a piece of art that's more than than just the music.
Well said, i also believe you have to have both formats. It all depends on how it was mastered and the sound quality will vary depending on how it was mastered to each format. There are cases where it was better mastered onto vinyl and vise versa. Myself and many audiophiles though prefer analog tape or vinyl over digital. Digital may sound like all the music is there but for those with good ears digital sounds like some of the music is missing. Digital for me lacks the important aspect of music and that is the harmonic and ambient information that makes music sound real. I have had this debate with many digital heads and they are adamant thats impossible that digital can and does capture everything in a recording, i disagree. Remember digital is and always will be a sample of the original analog wave form. Yes even at higher sample rates there seems to be the same missing information and lack of the information that makes music sound real. Music is a series of very complex analog wave forms, harmonics, overtones, and ambient decays, and for many audiophiles digital seems to not be able to capture it all. It seems to be there but on close evaluation it seems to be missing. And it is very important because it contributes to the realism and emotional connection to the music. Digital just sounds artificial to many. When you go to grade shows most rooms are playing analog and now the big thing in high end audio is analog tape. Yes there are many company’s that are now producing music on master tape. Often getting you as close to the original analog master tape as possible. And these tapes are not cheap typically upwards of $500 for one album. Anyway i feel differently than does Paul about which format is the best version but i do agree you do need both. I search to find out how and ho mastered it or what label it was produced on that often will tell me which is going to be the best sounding version.
Exactly right its not about the format its about the experience and memories that music can generate not one is better than the other. I love all formats I have Cds I use digital downloads because its easy when on the go and tavelling but it all generates memories and senses. I love vinyl and always will :) the memories that generates for me. When I think of vinyl and hear vinyl automatically i am transported back to the mid 80s and my dad putting on his LP brothers in arms and hearing that needle drop the slight crackle and pop and the opening rhythem of 'So Far Away' kicking in. Every memory of my child hood kicks in. So the argument of which is better means nothing to me the music and memories that get generated for me is whats important the enjoyment. Another instance I remember the night my son was born getting a phone call at 3 in the morning saying my wife was in labor I jumped in the car to get to the hospital and the first thing i heard on the radio was the killers shot at the Dark. everytime I hear that song that memory pops back in my head. So the format does not matter enjoy music enjoy what the artist has done. Enjoy your memories and feelings that music givs you
I haven't bought vinyl for many years, but did hang on to the ones I did buy. I recently digitized my cd collection and have found 5 so far with disc rot. Totally unplayable. Glad I still have the vinyl versions from the 80's. They sound great now compared to those cds that are dissolving.
The thing I miss most about vinyl is going to the brick and mortar record store, sifting through albums that you can actually touch and read . I purchased more than one record while shopping at Tower just from listening to what they were playing in the store. Some of the music I have on vinyl I also have on CD as a backup !
My HiF system is vinyl+cd+hdd+blueray. Some albums are great on CD some on vinyl, no black or white. Some cd players are great some not... once upon a time I have some Pioneer DVD player, with support of SACD, some of Dire Straits albums sounds on this player like magic, even better on vinyl I have, some other music was no so good...
Totaly I agree.It is clear - if someone had in past bad or damaged analog he purchased new and digital. Then he will condemn analog - his own was not enough. For those who had very good analog they didn't like to throw it because digital was not enough reason to loose mechanical charm. But everybody is free to choose whatsever. I would say - the rest of system decides what will do better. For digital it is much less critical than for analog because anyone can boost sopranos or bass to cover problems , With analog it will result with level of noise , cracking or acoustic feedback by LP. In effect analog needs perfection.
If you're into classical music and jazz, vinyl isn't worth the extra cost and care, because these types of music are mastered with enough dynamic range by old school sound engineers. For everything else (but especially pop, rock and r&b) released after the late nineties, vinyl offers much better quality than your average CD. The “loudness war” has ruined the CD industry, and remasters worse than originals, since they are tuned for kids listening to mp3 on cheap headphones, or sometimes through their smartphone speakers.
@denny b I was only talking about the dynamic range that forced me to buy a turntable and vinyl records at 48yo, though I don't like the hassle of dusting them and changing side every 20 minutes. I'm more a multichannel SACD or blu-ray kind of "audiophile", I guess. In my youth, CDs were all the rage, compared to audio tapes, and it took me well over a decade to agree with hipsters' wisdom, some of them half my age. Have a good one, denny…
@denny b i listened to an HD album of Kind of Blue on my PSAudio Stellar Strata and it sounds pretty phenomenal. There is 0% chance that vinyl would sound better. 0.
It is very easy to test CD vs, Vinyl objectively. I played the same orchestral music both on a simple CD player transport and on a vintage Turntable, and I noticed that a properly recorded CD has almost equal if not higher quality in comparison to the vinyl, provided that one uses a proper synergic system (In my test: Music: Brahms "Symphony No 1" Sibelius "Karelia Suite"; Turntable: Denon DP-47F+ Phono Preamp: Parasound Zphono; CD Player: Pioneer, + DAC: iFi Pro DSD; Amplifier: Parasound Halo 21; Speaker: Focal; Sub-Woofer: JBL)
Vinyl is more durable than most mediums, especially CDs with their disk rot. My vinyl setup was completely free, neighbors threw out a practically brand new Zenith Allegro sound system, and vinyls are available at my local thrift store for fifty-cents. Microcassettes are still my favourite format for listening to music on the go, as an aspiring twenty-five year old engineer.
No matter what people say, the day i bought an expensive vinyl player, and a 180 gram version of "Pink floyd - The Wall" was the first day i experienced just how incredible The wall sounds! I were used to listening to it on my TEAC UD-503 11.2mhz DSD DAC, which is a quality high end DAC, so don't get me wrong, i love "digital" DSD (not so much PCM) But my point is, Vinyl can do something which is unheard with digital, When you listen to vinyl, you can listen way louder, with no fatigue, it's much more pleasant for the ears. There is some fatigue involved in digital!
The reason why you can listen "way louder" to vinyl is because the music is compressed on vinyl. The guy says that in the video. Digital has more dynamic range.
The high-frequency "hash" generated by the nearly universal sigma-delta DACs wears down your ability to hear treble detail because your brain works hard to discern the music from the noise. Your dislike for PCM has likely been noise-shaped by this successive-approximation (not bit-for-bit) conversion process. Well-executed multibit PCM conversion generates much less high-frequency noise and thus much less listener fatigue.
My TEAC UD503 11.mhz DAC has digital filtering pushed all the way up 150khz, upsampling PCM to 11.2mhz DSD. It does help digital sound a lot less digital. But in the end, listening to an analogue recording, on analogue gear, out of my analogue loudspeakers, is the only way to completely get rid of any digital sound ;) but yeah, this has a very "vinyl" sound, it's like two different curses. Some recordings i prefer on vinyl, some i prefer digital.
Moving up in turntable quality first removes the motor noise and bearing noise then reduces tonearm resonances. Most "vinyl" sound results from these mechanical problems, along with phono preamp noise.
Martin Tousignant I disagree.. The most significant trade of analgogue sound, is the complete absence of adc and dac. Even on a mid level turntable I hear this..
Paul, I mostly agree with you on this topic, too. However, although you are a couple of years older than me, the way I hear it there are, or were even in the recent past, (in italics) music CDs that were not recorded very well. Certainly, you have mentioned this shortcoming about digital recordings on CD, but I thought I'd reiterate this fact about the recording industry. However, I am not harshly criticizing the musical artists, and producers. I certainly listen to CDs, I've got a Sony CD player (from 1997), high density linear converter. However, I prefer listening to vinyl, and cassette tape; but if pre-recorded it should ideally be type 2. Also, thanks for your detailed, and enlightening explanations, and expert opinions. I'm considering purchasing a DAC.
Interesting timing for your item today Paul as a friend brought his turntable, phono stage and some records round to my place yesterday. Until recently I was exclusively CD based and haven't listened to vinyl at home for many years. It has taken a lot of work and fine tuning to get my digital front end sounding this good and I have recently developed a streaming system that I now consider to equal and sometimes surpass my CD playback. However, that vinyl system just acted like a conduit straight to the emotion of the music in a way that I now can't get out of my head. It is now inevitable that I am going to have to get a turntable into my system. I find streaming Tidal and digital files truly sounds excellent and it is really convenient and a terrific way of exploring and finding new music, but the vinyl presentation does appear to add something very special. I couldn't care a rats a*** about the ritual of playing records or the big LP covers or whatever, I just want the best sound quality.
Yes, digital has better specs, but does that translate to what "sounds better" to a person? That's a subjective issue. For me, vinyl is the most pleasing sound to my human ears (even knowing that that typical warmth is caused by distortion). Of course, it all comes down to the quality of the recording and mastering. I grew up with vinyl records and realize there's a nostalgia factor, but that just adds to my enjoyment of the music, which is what counts in the end.
Some things that I like are just not available on CD, Pacacamac Music of the Incas and colores LPs for example. That's probably the only reason I still have a TT.
Get a CD and a Vinyl version of the same album/artist if you can and play them one after the other in the same system. You will immediately notice the difference. With vinyl you'll get a more musically pleasing and better image of the music. Having said that I still enjoy listening to CD and I almost always hate the old vinyls that I get because of the noise (pops/crackles). But a good (usually brand new) vinyl is always a pleasure to listen to. Just my two cents on this. Btw, Paul I really enjoy these YT Q&A better than the posts (I'm getting lazy reading anything these days).
Right My favourite records I purchased years ago in CD formats. I also had some of them recorded on mono reels with quality of broadcast turntables . . It was not compareable. . I blamed it to speakers and gears that tapes sounded "easy and clear" while CDs were "fancy" After I purchsed gramophone and started to buy the same music on LPs. And LP's sounded in way of magnetic tapes - this was very obvious . When decided analog as a leading quality I was able to align my whole system so that it is almost all, CD, reels, casstette and LP are same same enjoyable. .
The problem is the comparison is almost always meaningless. The mix from the Master that is used for the vinyl pressing and the digital production are very often different and there is no way of knowing. Just Listen and enjoy the music.
I like cd some of my favorite recordings from the 50s and 60s sound good but for me there is something in vinyl and and analog tape that I love that no digital media can touch
Thank you, THANK you, THANK YOU. We have a modest but lovely vinyl collection chez nous, and many of them I am not willing or able to replace them all with digital versions. I mean, WHICH digital version should I get? When the vinyl of, say Time Out (I have both stereo and mono pressings) sounds so wonderful, when replace?
I still use a modified 14 bit Magnavox CD player and I haven't heard much better but I haven't really heard the latest stuff.But to me the Theta Dacs and others of that time were just not very good. Every time I hear a defect or distortion on an LP I compare to the CD and its even worse. But I know CDs are capable of decent sound If you listen to well mastered CDs. I have a direct to disc LP which is not available on CD (Flamenco Fever) and the dynamics are stunning and way better than any CD I've ever heard. That LP now sells for many 100's of dollars.
Me either which is why I digitised so much of my vinyl collection. I purchased my first EP in 1962 (Spotlight on the Shadows) and my first LP in 1967 (Jimi Hendrix's "Are You Experienced").
I live in an analogue world, I grew up with vinyl records and I listen to vinyl more than CDs. In fact I wish I had a record lathe so I could cut my own songs I've made onto vinyl, just for the sake of having it on vinyl.
I’ve enjoyed lots of time playing vinyl records ages ago but now I moved on and can’t stand the noise, cracks and much inferior dynamics. And then comes the convenience issue. I used to enjoy spending half a Saturday going shopping for vinyl records to find myself buying one that I played repeatedly until I got tired of it.
hi and tanx from a guinness drinker from the cote d'azur there are so many 33s from the 70s and 80s that don't exist on cd , westcoast-rock fe. and boz scaggs "i wonder why" on la scala , crown 300, transrotor sme decca london handselected is forever in my heart and brain like a lost love
On a slightly different subject, are there any AV type receivers that produce good sound separation for stereo mode playback? At any price point, they mostly sound 2 dimensional with no depth when using left right channel only. It's like the AV receiver is a one trick pony for movies only and are terrible for music. Why is this? The DACs? Transformers? It seems completely possible technologically for an AV receiver to be good at both, but I've not found one that is. Conversely, if running separates for a good stereo setup, why do preamps not have an HDMI pass through? Would be nice to listen to TV broadcast and movie playback through a good stereo setup one in a while.
One thing that never enters the vinyl vs cd debate is availability, it's not really a competition between them. There are many things available on vinyl you can't get on cd and there are many things on cd you can't get on vinyl. MP3 has the least availability.
love my cds tried vinyl to much hassle for me cds can be used on just about anything from dvd or blu ray player and video games consoles they sound fantastic when played on certain Laserdisc players
Yes, still a need for vinyl of the PAST. Like Sony proved to me, some their master tapes are spent, and Columbia never obtained multi-tracks from other recording studios, so finding a pristine vinyl LP/album will sound better than CD!
Software quality should drive your purchasing decision (which version is best?) either way. With most of the music from the 1960's, 70's, and 80's, the original LPs in good condition will sound better and cost less.
Howdy. in my mind. Music can be a comprehensive experience. I like to play Led Zeppelin I on my turntable because pulling the vinyl out of its sleeve takes me back to when I was 16 and just had gathered enough money to buy it. I don't like to play Cosmo's Factory by CCR because that takes me back to when I was 18. I was sick from moonshine and the track Heard It Thruogh The Grapewine played in the background. Regards.
I heard there were DBX encoded vinyl and I know there were Dolby encoded vinyl because I heard a classical radio station play one and broadcast it raw dog. You had to run it through your tape playback infrastructure or something to hear it right. Then there was Dolby FM but I digress. Has anyone here ever heard a properly played back DBX disc?
De fato é música o que importa, mas, não troco o original pelo genérico, o genérico não tem alma, sem harmônicos, entretanto, não dispenso um bom CD ou ‘streaming’, devido à dificuldade de hoje não existir no mercado vinil da década de 60 até início da de 70, depois as gravadoras, introduziram LPs com compressão exaustiva no espectro de áudio, o que comprometeu a qualidade final para caber mais musicas, em um só disco.
So I have two questions to someone who is smarter than me about the topic... Here it comes: If DAC converts digital signal to analog surely during that conversion some of the sound quality is lost. My question is why would someone spend thousands of dollars for the best DAC if pure analog devices like turntables don't require such conversion and are just available? (Assuming that all they care about is the sound quality and nothing else) Secondly I would like to find out is there any general rule about how to compare DACs to Turntables in terms of the quality? I mean that in order to match the sound class of a turntable for let's say £500 you have to spend £1500 for a DAC etc. I would be grateful for your time.
"within the constraints of vinyl audio" I think the brick wall filter for the CD digital format is also a very heavy constraint. Frequency range from vinyl is more extended.
Right dude, so according to you there is no need for bringing up the nyquist frequency to 44Khz or 88Khz, aka 96 KHz sampling and 192 KHz sampling.Go to all the professional recording studios and tell them. src.infinitewave.ca/help.html
There is no limiting in low range for LP. May be you only didnt met any plate without noticeable rumble noise compaired to usefull signal . Of course there is something like wind blow which is created by vinyl material but not affecting listening. I do not observe any supremacy of CD in low range. I cant point about sopranos - in fact I suspect that sopranos in CD may sometime depend on radio interferences around. Somany reports about changes with some appliances working or not. I am aware it is not small problem which I observe in my place strongest last time at 3,2MHz The confirmation could be all the fuzz about highly priced specialy shelded cables for CD.
As I understood from your text: Vinyl is great but it's not superior. So much confidence. All I could say is who knows. And that???? I may answer beacause I say that I know. Not by semiscientific calculations but by real experience drawn from direct comparaison by ear. Ear conneceted to my imagination is my ultimate indicator. . All fuzz is about synergy of systems. System made synergetic to CD is not comlementary to system made synergetic to analog. In fact CD is not that prone to any synergy. That is beacuse CD recordings are in 99% cases deeply modified analog recordings for purpose of including in them "primary synergy" to popular cheaper systems. Trouble with that is that each CD may have it not the same. " . In my experience only vinyls ordinary recorded by me to CD at 48 kHz were equal each other . Analog recordings are 100% original and with elaborated but crucial synergy they are superior.
Hi Mike, to each one his own. I am (also) more on the analog side, and agree with you, but if somebody prefers digital I am 100% fine with that. The only point I wanted to make is that redbook CD has it's limits too. I owned the PS Audio LAMBDA drive and ULTRALINK II. After that a Dcs stack of many 10.000 of Eur. All that time I preferred my analog above the digital. I Do own a SME30 with own designed motor drive. The digital set remained for 95% of the time stacked somewhere. Each time when I took it out for listening it takes only a few days or even hours and I am done with it for the next few years. Vinyl demon makes some kind of crusade of it and exposing his very limited knowledge and besides that I think he is tone deaf. Listening is my full time occupation as conservatory trained musician and as high-end amplifier designer. I have a decent set of digital connected to my apple computer for YT music and so, for "the real work" I totally gave up on digital. The only decent thing I heard till now was a 12.000 Euro SACD player.
I’ve tried digital from day 1, bought the CD player (which I still use today) in the 90’s. It sucked then and it sucks now! Most recently, did a sound test with all components being equal, turntable vs. CD vs. Streaming and that’s the order that came out. So, download your .mp3 from some site and rock it through your iPhone! I’ll drop the needle all day long!
Both the need and demand for vinyl is very much subjective in today’s digitally saturated world. For one thing, only a few has the ready equipment and set up to play it back with. And perhaps business profitability lurks at the side of it because of the “few.”
6 лет назад
Unfortunately there's a "giant divide" between vinyl fanatics (I've been such one) and digital, MQA sound. We should be realistic and realize that a war is going on, a price war there only digital side can win. Furthermore, vinyl itself has reached its top already and has no potential for any further (r)evolution while digital has barely begun and is constantly speeding up.
Tics. Pops. Pre and post groove echo. Turntable rumble. Physical durability of vinyl compared to a compact disc. Hmm … is there really ANY reason to choose vinyl except for a fondness of old technology? Nope. That's the one and only real answer.
A need for vinyl? Some of us never got rid of our turntables or LPs and have continued to enjoy them, but if I were starting out in hifi now, would I get a turntable? Heck no.
No no no no no no. My Decca's are dead silent after a clean. Can you clean your digital? No you can't. Vinyl records is a huge advantage with the analog orchestra and its warm lush tube sound. Record that on CD and it is only gonna sound lifeless and cold because of the square waveforms and artificial corrections.
Well considering CD's are dying a slow death and vinyl is slowly making it's way back, some may want to rethink their listening journey.... I'll never give up my Vinyl. I don't need some 20 y/o (who has never heard the music) remastering any classic albums because they think it sounds better.. How about getting music you love and enjoy listening to?
I wonder if that is related to vinyl recordings being a understandable format, in a world of complex technology. You can even trace disturbances to spesific parts of the playback setup without fancy equipment. Even just handling the equipment gives sound in the speakers in a very hands on way. CD is technically superior, but is also a "black box" you insert a disc into. Vinyl is more like: needle moves leads to speaker moves, simplicity!
@@erlendse Possibly, I think for a lot of people there is also the nostalgia of albums.. In fact, some people actually like the crack and pop on some older albums. CD's are superior in many ways..
@@ifilmalways7122 Totally, the inperfect got a uniqueness to it. There is the handling sounds, the dust on the disc, the placing of the needle. And if the sound is off, there are DIY routes to fixing it. Basically, you have some effort to play a disc, and you can tell by the noise it's a LP.
As i get older, the more i stay away from digital. For me, digital is what i use for movies on my home theatre, analogue is what i use for music. Plus i own close to 13.000 records.
My opinion on this: There is no need for vinyl. Vinyls are definitely worse at reproducing sound than CD and a lot of other digital formats. But if people enjoy the experience of handling vinyl that is fine. Some artists even relrease new albums onto cassettes, again for the experience. Whether vinyl sounds better than digital probably also depends on the music genre they are listening to. I doubt that there are a lot of classic enthusiasts that prefer vinyls over digital. But for pop music the analogue distortions are sometimes interpreted as warmth (e.g. harmonic klirr) (Disclaimer: I am not an audio professional nor did I ever conduct scientific measurements to confirm all of this)
Thomas Schmitz I’d say I agree with you for the most part. I don’t personally listen to vinyl on any of my systems but I have heard some that do sound “magical,” on others in certain songs/albums. The experience is definitely part of it, like how some people still enjoy playing retro consoles on actual equipment opposed to emulation. Some distortion can definitely be perceived as warmth such as in tubes sometimes, so you are absolutely right. With all that said as Paul has mentioned on many occasions in comes down to the mastering of the media. A CD is absolutely superior to vinyl but if it’s compressed too much and not done properly the end result can be an inferior product. I love audio, it’s strange how such little details can drastically effect the sound we hear.
Yes my favourite recordings are choir and orchestra recordings done by my father. He does this as a hobby and so far never applies any processing to his recordings (whether that is a good idea or not is debatable of course) and they give you the most pure and realistic sound imo.
We don’t need vinyl, we don’t need tubes, we don’t need many flavors of coffee. The best coffee is plain black coffee, because 100% unflavored coffee is best. Yes, maybe? Some people like things slightly flavored. Vinyl and tubes give that, the type of distortion it imparts to the music can give it some degree of realism as well. Some reviews say “This solid state amp is worth $$$$, it has some tube like characteristics…”, but I have never read a review saying “This ss amp sounds very transistor like worth $$$$”. Distortions from Vinyl or tubes are not necessarily bad. Many artist distort their guitars, voices, Mastering engineers EQ the music. Plain, unflavored, pure is not always better and sometimes you want the music slightly tune for your enjoyment.
You are also wrong, as Paul says it is not black & white. You really need to do AB comparisons. Recently my march towards digital was I thought unstoppable, I listen in work via a PC and a cute, effective Audioquest Dragon Fly Red DAC and recently was happily listening to a friends mid - high end system, closely analysing the sound of his £3000 CD player with a variety of music both older and fairly new and over differing genre. He had a Linn Sondek sitting there that incredibly someone had gifted him. It was a an older deck with a Rega arm and Linn K9 and an entry level Projeckt phono stage. Out of curiosity, I asked him to fire it up. We had a beer or two and let the turntable settle and compared Tracy Chapman - Tracy Chapman; Talk Talk Colour of Spring and The Neo Soul artist Malia and her complex yet moody album Divergence. I can only describe the experience as life affirming, without exception to both mine and my friends ears we were both blown away by the way the Linn reproduced these albums. There is something about vinyl that CD often doesn't capture. Hours went by without fatigue. It was something spontaneous but joyful. It made me rethink my whole system approach. I have now purchased a Linn Sondek with an Ittok arm and Audio Technica Moving Coil cartridge. Whilst my friend has upgraded his cartridge to a wonderful Dynavector MC 20x and a Schitt Manu Phono stage. The upgrades have further elevated his turntable. He now buys much of his music on Vinyl wherever possible the 190g virgin vinyl pressings. I unearthed some of my grandfathers Decca heavy Vinyl Full Frequency Stereophonic sound recordings of Mantovani and his orchestra. You may laugh but I know he looked after them but played them on a low resolving Radiogram. On the TT they are remarkabke, stunning in fact. I will be upgrading my cartridge and trying out some new phono stages like the Tom Evans etc. This experience with the Linn Sondek has forced me no more like seduced me to change. I don't think I will be purchasing a high end CD player, instead I am looking into Hi Res streaming as my second and digital source. One thought though to finish, CD is as much a flawed medium as Vinyl. The difference is summed up for me thus; CD communicates with the Brain whilst Vinyl has the ability to touch the soul.
Each side of the album contains about 20 minutes of actual music. The average attention span of the average adult is 20 minutes on average. The simple, very physical action of turning the record gives enough of a break to bring the person back to themselves, in order to really listen to the next 2o minutes of music. Mediation, exercise, etc. reguires at least 20 minutes at a time.
p.s. The Album was meant to be listened to as a whole, by the artist. It's an experience, as life is! The fact that the diameter of the record is 12 inches is not a coincidence. 12-20, is found in nature and societes measurments of time, even money (Britian before decimillization in 1970)
To me, a CD recorded to a quality cassette such as a Maxell XLII or XLII-S on one of my higher end decks provides the most pleasing sound. The recording adds depth and warmth to the music. Of course, this is my opinion.
Steve Roginski totally agree with an equalizer, a must for that Hi Fidelity sound
The cassettes can imitate everything
cassettes { especially type II and IV } recorded in hi-end deck from a hi-end turtable sounds like the turntable and so the same when recorded from CDpalyers
I love cassettes very much along with LPs and CDs
I wish the Brands start building cassette decks again with the standards of 80s of course .
I miss picking up say an Iron Maiden album and admiring the large artwork, it was all part of the vinyl experience.
Vinyl is definitely an experience. It is pleasing to the senses. It's physical, visual, old vinyl records smell a certain way. I don't personally have a vinyl system, I've been all digital since the beginning of my audiophile interest...But I can remember my parents' system and the smell and sights of going through all those vinyls and putting a record on, and the warm midbass sound of those old 60's and 70's bands. To me its like the cigar smoking or pipe smoking of the audiophile world.
It hasn't happened yet, but I know that one day when I am older, the kids are grown, and I have some money to spend...Vinyl will be a component of my "end all" system. There's a perfectly tuned finished basement room, den or man-cave in my future with a high-end stereo system including vinyl just waiting for me to build it...
"It's physical, visual, old vinyl records smell a certain way."
Indeed :-) And the covers of vinyl albums are much easier to read when your eyesight begins to fail when you are in your dotage. I surprised myself a couple of years ago when I purchased a couple of reissues of my favourites on high quality vinyl for my birthday. (A Freddie King album and Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue", the best selling jazz album of all time). Mind you, I immediately digitised them so I could hear them in as pristine condition as possible. One of the downsides of vinyl is the groove deforms each time you play the record. High frequency content moves the stylus fast enough to increase the temperature of the vinyl closer to melting point.
warc8us with a properly set up cartridge* & a half decent t/table, tonearm & phono stage ...vinyl is King! & rules high in superiority over cd's. I.M.Humble.O. (*many folk just screw a cartridge into the middle of the headshell's adjustability range & nearly always (without lottery-winning luck) get lousy reproduction results) May your dream system with vinyl come in to fruition.
Vinyl is an old technology but nothing as yet compares. Kind of like comparing film photography with digital, the resolution of 100 plus years old film photos is incredible.
By far the most intelligent view of this topic I have ever heard. A thousand "Bravo"s.
Listening to Paul gives me the same warm, fuzzy feeling as watching Bob Ross. I've never heard PS Audio products, but now I want to buy them!
Of course there is still a need for vinyl, we all need good flooring! 😜
Thank you very much our dear Paul for your answer. I myself have both digital and analog records. And I enjoy both of them.
That was a great explanation and very eloquently stated. I enjoy listening to both records and CDs.
If digital was mastered correctly it would be better than vinyl. Unfortunately the music industry is mastering digital to sound good in the car and on portable bluetooth speakers. There is a lot of music that sounds best on the Vinyl version, pre-90's music in particular. For convenience's sake I wish this wasn't the case.
yes thats TRUE .. im going to by a AR 15 automatic riffle and enter in the digital mastering enginer congres
and do a massive killing and when they prison me i wil say: it worth!! and began to laugh and they will bail jaim me for eternity and 10.000 in hell probaly lol
Tom Freeman what!?
Danny Woods I hate lower res music..
If you buy the old versions of the CDs (late eighties, early 90s) of older albums from the 60s, 70s/80s etc, the CD is not brick walled. Although newer remasters of CDs aren't as loud as they were in the early 2000s. Things are getting better.
Menos mal no todo lo digital está mal, mira head Maschine de Deep purple en Hdtracks.
Paul I'm with you. I had been working as a recording engineer for years and recently up skilled to work as an acoustic consultant and I noticed from about 2009 onwards were when the biggest advancements in digital audio came about, yes many system sounded pretty good before that but in the last 12 years it's really gotten very good.
Thank you Paul. You said it with one answer . It's the music that matters period!
CD, vinyl, streaming... yeah so many ways to enjoy music these days although I’ve not played a CD for a while now. It’s either Tidal MQA and/of vinyl!
Dunno if you guys gives a damn but if you guys are stoned like me during the covid times then you can watch pretty much all the new movies on instaflixxer. Have been binge watching with my gf for the last months :)
@Kristopher Gunnar Definitely, been watching on instaflixxer for years myself :)
Vinyl is a lot of trouble but worth it, as I discovered when I bought a CD of Learning to crawl to play in the car. Did not sound as good as my 30 odd year old record, so I got more serious about vinyl for the first time in years. Digital is great but vinyl has a soul
Paul, you are so right regarding this and you covered it so elegantly. I own turntable, cd and a great streaming device and I love all of them. Like you said a lot of this is in the hands of the sound engineers and the mastering process. I have CD that sound better than albums and albums that sound better than cd. I have music that hasn't been reissued on cd and the same for vinyl. It is about excepting the differences between the two and realizing that both have one purpose and that is the enjoyment of the listener.
Its all good, as long as the chain is good. I have streaming, CDs, DVD-A, SACD, BD, Vinyl.
I prefer Vinyl, as long as I want to get up every 15 mins to change sides, LPs.
But one has to do the work for Vinyl to sound good. First and foremost, you have to keep the Vinyl clean. I keep a spray bottle of antiseptic alcohol, brush and lint free rag handy.
Spray the LP as its turning on the platter, then brush it, then dry it. Snaps, Crackles, Pops..gone.... And you most certainly need a good TT/cartridge and phono amp.
I'm not saying one needs to buy a $15K TT.....my Marantz TT-15S1 ($1499) with the Clearaudio Virtuoso v2 cartridge > Parasound phono amp is an exceptional Vinyl setup.
Are some LPs better or worse than others...most certainly...some LPs I bought as a kid, I will never play again...the way they were recorded were terrible.
"First and foremost, you have to keep the Vinyl clean. I keep a spray bottle of antiseptic alcohol, brush and lint free rag handy."
While cleanliness is goodliness where vinyl is concerned, I'm a little chary of alcohol on vinyl as it's probably too aggressive. I only use it on LPs so filthy the following is insufficient. I use a non-ionic detergent wiped onto the vinyl surface with a well-worn, super-soft toothbrush. Then I rinse it off with distilled water; you don't want residue from hard water. Then I air-dry the records on a document-sorting rack. The idea is to then keep the surface clean with an anti-static record cleaning brush. I purchase most of my music second-hand.
I enjoy both formats! Depends on what sound I'm in the mood for at any certain time! If I want unmatched clarity, I go to CD, if I want want warm and natural, I go to vinyl! But I am obviously more partial to LP's! I usually have an album in BOTH formats!
Sorry but I can hear much more detail from well-made LPs than CDs, although well-made CDs come close. Drums and guitars are affected the most.
sure I love vinyl. It is the same reason why I love air cooled Porsches. Cause they have soul.
Paul, you said it so well, yes, stop this divide or war between this or that. Just enjoy music the way you like it! For me it is definitively both!
Great response to that question, I have a lot of vinyl from the past and tons of CD's also, I remember purchasing one of the fist Sony CD players when I was in high school I guess it was in the early 80's or so and I was the first on the block to have one and everyone came over to see what it was all about. They had all the test and demo CD's that would play the very high freq sounds and lows for demo, like running your finger across a comb etc. I think the firs CD I purchased was by Loverboy. Still have it and still have that Sony player and use it to this day just for in my ham radio shack here. I have a turntable but have not hooked it up in years but still have a lot of my vinyl.
Oh and I know a lot of the early CD's were just remastered from the original recordings or vinyl versions I guess to put on CD so didn't always sound good like you say but some of the new ones started sounding pretty good when they got it figured out, ha.
well digital audio I can increase the loudness by 5 decibels the loudness of vinyl can't be increased at all so vinyl is inferior
I tested an old CD player and the highs sound super aweful. Same goes for pop songs mastered in the 90s (when the first DAWs came along).
I prefer modern remasters and productions for that reason alone. Though the loudness war sucks.
I can take your digital audio and raise the loudness 5 decibels you can't do that only I know how to do that
? could please elaborate?
I have quite a descent setup so I like all formats. But for me vinyl has got that extra bit of angel dust an extra bit of sparkle its more 3d. Just saying
This sounds like one of your most honest responses I'm not saying you lied at all but this one just is so real and you are very real and trustworthy and honest keep up the good work all about the music let's not get caught up with the formats you are right
I have a simple rule. If I purchase music, I try to do buy the medium I would have bought when the music first became available. If I buy music made in the 70's it's in album or vinyl format. If I buy music made in early '80's, I opt for a cassette because that's when I first started driving and had a cassette player in my car. If I buy music made '85 to '05 it's typically a CD format. If I buy music made in last 10-15 years it's a digital download...or, no purchase at all...just use my streaming services. For me it's about the predominate experience during the era the the music was made. Having said all that...there is something about holding an album in your hands. It's a piece of art that's more than than just the music.
Well said, i also believe you have to have both formats. It all depends on how it was mastered and the sound quality will vary depending on how it was mastered to each format. There are cases where it was better mastered onto vinyl and vise versa. Myself and many audiophiles though prefer analog tape or vinyl over digital. Digital may sound like all the music is there but for those with good ears digital sounds like some of the music is missing. Digital for me lacks the important aspect of music and that is the harmonic and ambient information that makes music sound real. I have had this debate with many digital heads and they are adamant thats impossible that digital can and does capture everything in a recording, i disagree. Remember digital is and always will be a sample of the original analog wave form. Yes even at higher sample rates there seems to be the same missing information and lack of the information that makes music sound real. Music is a series of very complex analog wave forms, harmonics, overtones, and ambient decays, and for many audiophiles digital seems to not be able to capture it all. It seems to be there but on close evaluation it seems to be missing. And it is very important because it contributes to the realism and emotional connection to the music. Digital just sounds artificial to many. When you go to grade shows most rooms are playing analog and now the big thing in high end audio is analog tape. Yes there are many company’s that are now producing music on master tape. Often getting you as close to the original analog master tape as possible. And these tapes are not cheap typically upwards of $500 for one album. Anyway i feel differently than does Paul about which format is the best version but i do agree you do need both. I search to find out how and ho mastered it or what label it was produced on that often will tell me which is going to be the best sounding version.
Exactly right its not about the format its about the experience and memories that music can generate not one is better than the other. I love all formats I have Cds I use digital downloads because its easy when on the go and tavelling but it all generates memories and senses.
I love vinyl and always will :) the memories that generates for me. When I think of vinyl and hear vinyl automatically i am transported back to the mid 80s and my dad putting on his LP brothers in arms and hearing that needle drop the slight crackle and pop and the opening rhythem of 'So Far Away' kicking in. Every memory of my child hood kicks in. So the argument of which is better means nothing to me the music and memories that get generated for me is whats important the enjoyment.
Another instance I remember the night my son was born getting a phone call at 3 in the morning saying my wife was in labor I jumped in the car to get to the hospital and the first thing i heard on the radio was the killers shot at the Dark. everytime I hear that song that memory pops back in my head. So the format does not matter enjoy music enjoy what the artist has done. Enjoy your memories and feelings that music givs you
I haven't bought vinyl for many years, but did hang on to the ones I did buy. I recently digitized my cd collection and have found 5 so far with disc rot. Totally unplayable. Glad I still have the vinyl versions from the 80's. They sound great now compared to those cds that are dissolving.
The thing I miss most about vinyl is going to the brick and mortar record store, sifting through albums that you can actually touch and read . I purchased more than one record while shopping at Tower just from listening to what they were playing in the store. Some of the music I have on vinyl I also have on CD as a backup !
Yes! That's beautiful well put. I couldn't agree more.
My HiF system is vinyl+cd+hdd+blueray. Some albums are great on CD some on vinyl, no black or white.
Some cd players are great some not... once upon a time I have some Pioneer DVD player, with support of SACD, some of Dire Straits albums sounds on this player like magic, even better on vinyl I have, some other music was no so good...
Totaly I agree.It is clear - if someone had in past bad or damaged analog he purchased new and digital. Then he will condemn analog - his own was not enough. For those who had very good analog they didn't like to throw it because digital was not enough reason to loose mechanical charm. But everybody is free to choose whatsever. I would say - the rest of system decides what will do better. For digital it is much less critical than for analog because anyone can boost sopranos or bass to cover problems , With analog it will result with level of noise , cracking or acoustic feedback by LP. In effect analog needs perfection.
I love vinyl for so many reasons. Collecting old originals and buying new 180G Master recordings is great.
Vinyl adds a physical interaction in order to listen to its sounds.
CD only needs an insertion in order to hear it. Cassette too, downloads too.
If you're into classical music and jazz, vinyl isn't worth the extra cost and care, because these types of music are mastered with enough dynamic range by old school sound engineers.
For everything else (but especially pop, rock and r&b) released after the late nineties, vinyl offers much better quality than your average CD. The “loudness war” has ruined the CD industry, and remasters worse than originals, since they are tuned for
kids listening to mp3 on cheap headphones, or sometimes through their smartphone speakers.
I agree but kids listen to cheap stuff are because many of them are poor-
@denny b I was only talking about the dynamic range that forced me to buy a turntable and vinyl records at 48yo, though I don't like the hassle of dusting them and changing side every 20 minutes. I'm more a multichannel SACD or blu-ray kind of "audiophile", I guess. In my youth, CDs were all the rage, compared to audio tapes, and it took me well over a decade to agree with hipsters' wisdom, some of them half my age. Have a good one, denny…
@denny b i listened to an HD album of Kind of Blue on my PSAudio Stellar Strata and it sounds pretty phenomenal. There is 0% chance that vinyl would sound better. 0.
It is very easy to test CD vs, Vinyl objectively. I played the same orchestral music both on a simple CD player transport and on a vintage Turntable, and I noticed that a properly recorded CD has almost equal if not higher quality in comparison to the vinyl, provided that one uses a proper synergic system (In my test: Music: Brahms "Symphony No 1" Sibelius "Karelia Suite"; Turntable: Denon DP-47F+ Phono Preamp: Parasound Zphono; CD Player: Pioneer, + DAC: iFi Pro DSD; Amplifier: Parasound Halo 21; Speaker: Focal; Sub-Woofer: JBL)
Vinyl is more durable than most mediums, especially CDs with their disk rot. My vinyl setup was completely free, neighbors threw out a practically brand new Zenith Allegro sound system, and vinyls are available at my local thrift store for fifty-cents.
Microcassettes are still my favourite format for listening to music on the go, as an aspiring twenty-five year old engineer.
No matter what people say, the day i bought an expensive vinyl player, and a 180 gram version of "Pink floyd - The Wall" was the first day i experienced just how incredible The wall sounds! I were used to listening to it on my TEAC UD-503 11.2mhz DSD DAC, which is a quality high end DAC, so don't get me wrong, i love "digital" DSD (not so much PCM)
But my point is, Vinyl can do something which is unheard with digital, When you listen to vinyl, you can listen way louder, with no fatigue, it's much more pleasant for the ears. There is some fatigue involved in digital!
The reason why you can listen "way louder" to vinyl is because the music is compressed on vinyl.
The guy says that in the video.
Digital has more dynamic range.
The high-frequency "hash" generated by the nearly universal sigma-delta DACs wears down your ability to hear treble detail because your brain works hard to discern the music from the noise. Your dislike for PCM has likely been noise-shaped by this successive-approximation (not bit-for-bit) conversion process. Well-executed multibit PCM conversion generates much less high-frequency noise and thus much less listener fatigue.
My TEAC UD503 11.mhz DAC has digital filtering pushed all the way up 150khz, upsampling PCM to 11.2mhz DSD. It does help digital sound a lot less digital.
But in the end, listening to an analogue recording, on analogue gear, out of my analogue loudspeakers, is the only way to completely get rid of any digital sound ;) but yeah, this has a very "vinyl" sound, it's like two different curses. Some recordings i prefer on vinyl, some i prefer digital.
Moving up in turntable quality first removes the motor noise and bearing noise then reduces tonearm resonances. Most "vinyl" sound results from these mechanical problems, along with phono preamp noise.
Martin Tousignant I disagree.. The most significant trade of analgogue sound, is the complete absence of adc and dac. Even on a mid level turntable I hear this..
Paul, I mostly agree with you on this topic, too. However, although you are a couple of years older than me, the way I hear it there are, or were even in the recent past, (in italics) music CDs that were not recorded very well. Certainly, you have mentioned this shortcoming about digital recordings on CD, but I thought I'd reiterate this fact about the recording industry. However, I am not harshly criticizing the musical artists, and producers. I certainly listen to CDs, I've got a Sony CD player (from 1997), high density linear converter. However, I prefer listening to vinyl, and cassette tape; but if pre-recorded it should ideally be type 2. Also, thanks for your detailed, and enlightening explanations, and expert opinions. I'm considering purchasing a DAC.
I love it all! I have vinyl, CDs, and 5.1 blue rays. In their own way they’re all very good
Interesting timing for your item today Paul as a friend brought his turntable, phono stage and some records round to my place yesterday. Until recently I was exclusively CD based and haven't listened to vinyl at home for many years. It has taken a lot of work and fine tuning to get my digital front end sounding this good and I have recently developed a streaming system that I now consider to equal and sometimes surpass my CD playback. However, that vinyl system just acted like a conduit straight to the emotion of the music in a way that I now can't get out of my head. It is now inevitable that I am going to have to get a turntable into my system. I find streaming Tidal and digital files truly sounds excellent and it is really convenient and a terrific way of exploring and finding new music, but the vinyl presentation does appear to add something very special. I couldn't care a rats a*** about the ritual of playing records or the big LP covers or whatever, I just want the best sound quality.
Yes, digital has better specs, but does that translate to what "sounds better" to a person? That's a subjective issue. For me, vinyl is the most pleasing sound to my human ears (even knowing that that typical warmth is caused by distortion). Of course, it all comes down to the quality of the recording and mastering. I grew up with vinyl records and realize there's a nostalgia factor, but that just adds to my enjoyment of the music, which is what counts in the end.
Some things that I like are just not available on CD, Pacacamac Music of the Incas and colores LPs for example. That's probably the only reason I still have a TT.
Get a CD and a Vinyl version of the same album/artist if you can and play them one after the other in the same system. You will immediately notice the difference. With vinyl you'll get a more musically pleasing and better image of the music. Having said that I still enjoy listening to CD and I almost always hate the old vinyls that I get because of the noise (pops/crackles). But a good (usually brand new) vinyl is always a pleasure to listen to. Just my two cents on this. Btw, Paul I really enjoy these YT Q&A better than the posts (I'm getting lazy reading anything these days).
Right My favourite records I purchased years ago in CD formats. I also had some of them recorded on mono reels with quality of broadcast turntables . . It was not compareable. . I blamed it to speakers and gears that tapes sounded "easy and clear" while CDs were "fancy" After I purchsed gramophone and started to buy the same music on LPs. And LP's sounded in way of magnetic tapes - this was very obvious . When decided analog as a leading quality I was able to align my whole system so that it is almost all, CD, reels, casstette and LP are same same enjoyable. .
The problem is the comparison is almost always meaningless. The mix from the Master that is used for the vinyl pressing and the digital production are very often different and there is no way of knowing. Just Listen and enjoy the music.
I like cd some of my favorite recordings from the 50s and 60s sound good but for me there is something in vinyl and and analog tape that I love that no digital media can touch
No. Absolutely no need for vinyl. Just a retro wish. Scratches,skipping. Every time you play vinyl you DESTROY the vinyl record.
Great answer!!! Saludos desde Cuba!
Thank you, THANK you, THANK YOU. We have a modest but lovely vinyl collection chez nous, and many of them I am not willing or able to replace them all with digital versions. I mean, WHICH digital version should I get? When the vinyl of, say Time Out (I have both stereo and mono pressings) sounds so wonderful, when replace?
I still use a modified 14 bit Magnavox CD player and I haven't heard much better but I haven't really heard the latest stuff.But to me the Theta Dacs and others of that time were just not very good. Every time I hear a defect or distortion on an LP I compare to the CD and its even worse. But I know CDs are capable of decent sound If you listen to well mastered CDs.
I have a direct to disc LP which is not available on CD (Flamenco Fever) and the dynamics are stunning and way better than any CD I've ever heard. That LP now sells for many 100's of dollars.
I buy cds only. Maybe i would try lps but prices are sick.
Me either which is why I digitised so much of my vinyl collection. I purchased my first EP in 1962 (Spotlight on the Shadows) and my first LP in 1967 (Jimi Hendrix's "Are You Experienced").
Not a need, but a desire. To me, nothing ever sounded better than a brand new album!
Paul, I notice you are sitting in front of a reel to reel tape player. Do they still make them. Thanks dated Nov 6 2017
I live in an analogue world, I grew up with vinyl records and I listen to vinyl more than CDs. In fact I wish I had a record lathe so I could cut my own songs I've made onto vinyl, just for the sake of having it on vinyl.
I’ve enjoyed lots of time playing vinyl records ages ago but now I moved on and can’t stand the noise, cracks and much inferior dynamics. And then comes the convenience issue. I used to enjoy spending half a Saturday going shopping for vinyl records to find myself buying one that I played repeatedly until I got tired of it.
hi and tanx from a guinness drinker from the cote d'azur
there are so many 33s from the 70s and 80s that don't exist on cd , westcoast-rock fe.
and boz scaggs "i wonder why" on la scala , crown 300,
transrotor sme decca london handselected
is forever in my heart and brain like a lost love
On a slightly different subject, are there any AV type receivers that produce good sound separation for stereo mode playback? At any price point, they mostly sound 2 dimensional with no depth when using left right channel only. It's like the AV receiver is a one trick pony for movies only and are terrible for music. Why is this? The DACs? Transformers? It seems completely possible technologically for an AV receiver to be good at both, but I've not found one that is. Conversely, if running separates for a good stereo setup, why do preamps not have an HDMI pass through? Would be nice to listen to TV broadcast and movie playback through a good stereo setup one in a while.
One thing that never enters the vinyl vs cd debate is availability, it's not really a competition between them. There are many things available on vinyl you can't get on cd and there are many things on cd you can't get on vinyl. MP3 has the least availability.
love my cds tried vinyl to much hassle for me cds can be used on just about anything from dvd or blu ray player and video games consoles they sound fantastic when played on certain Laserdisc players
There’s only one thing that’s for sure, if you want to listen to a record you’ll need a turntable. Everything else supports that desire.
Yes, still a need for vinyl of the PAST. Like Sony proved to me, some their master tapes are spent, and Columbia never obtained multi-tracks from other recording studios, so finding a pristine vinyl LP/album will sound better than CD!
Software quality should drive your purchasing decision (which version is best?) either way. With most of the music from the 1960's, 70's, and 80's, the original LPs in good condition will sound better and cost less.
Howdy. in my mind.
Music can be a comprehensive experience.
I like to play Led Zeppelin I on my turntable because pulling the vinyl out of its sleeve takes me back to when I was 16 and just had gathered enough money to buy it.
I don't like to play Cosmo's Factory by CCR because that takes me back to when I was 18. I was sick from moonshine and the track Heard It Thruogh The Grapewine played in the background.
Regards.
I think Michael Fremer's system is one the best I've ever seen...
I heard there were DBX encoded vinyl and I know there were Dolby encoded vinyl because I heard a classical radio station play one and broadcast it raw dog. You had to run it through your tape playback infrastructure or something to hear it right. Then there was Dolby FM but I digress. Has anyone here ever heard a properly played back DBX disc?
Well said! Perfect!!
On a side note I would absolutely love to work for your company but unfortunately I'm on the East Coast.
I also have TD-125 with a SME 3009 Great table !!
what a great answer, I'm not sure why there always have to be a zero sum game. on things.
De fato é música o que importa, mas, não troco o original pelo genérico, o genérico não tem alma, sem harmônicos, entretanto, não dispenso um bom CD ou ‘streaming’, devido à dificuldade de hoje não existir no mercado vinil da década de 60 até início da de 70, depois as gravadoras, introduziram LPs com compressão exaustiva no espectro de áudio, o que comprometeu a qualidade final para caber mais musicas, em um só disco.
How would you compare the sound of Niam to PS Audio products in general?
But I was told vinyl was warm. How else am I supposed to survive this upcoming winter?
So I have two questions to someone who is smarter than me about the topic...
Here it comes:
If DAC converts digital signal to analog surely during that conversion some of the sound quality is lost. My question is why would someone spend thousands of dollars for the best DAC if pure analog devices like turntables don't require such conversion and are just available? (Assuming that all they care about is the sound quality and nothing else)
Secondly I would like to find out is there any general rule about how to compare DACs to Turntables in terms of the quality? I mean that in order to match the sound class of a turntable for let's say £500 you have to spend £1500 for a DAC etc.
I would be grateful for your time.
"within the constraints of vinyl audio" I think the brick wall filter for the CD digital format is also a very heavy constraint. Frequency range from vinyl is more extended.
Right dude, so according to you there is no need for bringing up the nyquist frequency to 44Khz or 88Khz, aka 96 KHz sampling and 192 KHz sampling.Go to all the professional recording studios and tell them. src.infinitewave.ca/help.html
There is no limiting in low range for LP. May be you only didnt met any plate without noticeable rumble noise compaired to usefull signal . Of course there is something like wind blow which is created by vinyl material but not affecting listening. I do not observe any supremacy of CD in low range. I cant point about sopranos - in fact I suspect that sopranos in CD may sometime depend on radio interferences around. Somany reports about changes with some appliances working or not. I am aware it is not small problem which I observe in my place strongest last time at 3,2MHz The confirmation could be all the fuzz about highly priced specialy shelded cables for CD.
Thank you very much for your great insight. Never would have thought of it.
As I understood from your text: Vinyl is great but it's not superior. So much confidence. All I could say is who knows. And that???? I may answer beacause I say that I know. Not by semiscientific calculations but by real experience drawn from direct comparaison by ear. Ear conneceted to my imagination is my ultimate indicator. . All fuzz is about synergy of systems. System made synergetic to CD is not comlementary to system made synergetic to analog. In fact CD is not that prone to any synergy. That is beacuse CD recordings are in 99% cases deeply modified analog recordings for purpose of including in them "primary synergy" to popular cheaper systems. Trouble with that is that each CD may have it not the same. " . In my experience only vinyls ordinary recorded by me to CD at 48 kHz were equal each other . Analog recordings are 100% original and with elaborated but crucial synergy they are superior.
Hi Mike, to each one his own. I am (also) more on the analog side, and agree with you, but if somebody prefers digital I am 100% fine with that. The only point I wanted to make is that redbook CD has it's limits too.
I owned the PS Audio LAMBDA drive and ULTRALINK II. After that a Dcs stack of many 10.000 of Eur.
All that time I preferred my analog above the digital. I Do own a SME30 with own designed motor drive.
The digital set remained for 95% of the time stacked somewhere. Each time when I took it out for listening it takes only a few days or even hours and I am done with it for the next few years.
Vinyl demon makes some kind of crusade of it and exposing his very limited knowledge and besides that I think he is tone deaf.
Listening is my full time occupation as conservatory trained musician and as high-end amplifier designer. I have a decent set of digital connected to my apple computer for YT music and so, for "the real work" I totally gave up on digital. The only decent thing I heard till now was a 12.000 Euro SACD player.
Please add audio of past videos to new podcast!
Well, I have a lot of friends on vinyl and they say that most (6 or 7 out of 10) vinyl records today are copied from cd ....
At least with vinyl you get the big pretty pictures and interesting notes on the cover lol.
I’ve tried digital from day 1, bought the CD player (which I still use today) in the 90’s. It sucked then and it sucks now! Most recently, did a sound test with all components being equal, turntable vs. CD vs. Streaming and that’s the order that came out.
So, download your .mp3 from some site and rock it through your iPhone! I’ll drop the needle all day long!
Both the need and demand for vinyl is very much subjective in today’s digitally saturated world. For one thing, only a few has the ready equipment and set up to play it back with. And perhaps business profitability lurks at the side of it because of the “few.”
Unfortunately there's a "giant divide" between vinyl fanatics (I've been such one) and digital, MQA sound. We should be realistic and realize that a war is going on, a price war there only digital side can win. Furthermore, vinyl itself has reached its top already and has no potential for any further (r)evolution while digital has barely begun and is constantly speeding up.
Tics. Pops. Pre and post groove echo. Turntable rumble. Physical durability of vinyl compared to a compact disc.
Hmm … is there really ANY reason to choose vinyl except for a fondness of old technology? Nope. That's the one and only real answer.
If people in studio pays so much attention to create a good sounding album, our life will be much easier.
Agreed 100000%
A need for vinyl? Some of us never got rid of our turntables or LPs and have continued to enjoy them, but if I were starting out in hifi now, would I get a turntable? Heck no.
It s the music that counts, which is the statement that most of my audiophile buddies easily forget....
10-4 & A-OK ,IPA man i'm Shure . CD Early Quality: [4 Channel -Quad- in Glorious MONO ]. YYZ-60+NOOB .
Like cds, dvds are a bargain. But no one talks about sd card's ? No moving parts no hum what gives?
If you have vinyl and want to play it the need is for a turntable.
Hi Paul. You are the Bob Ross of audio... Bye bye. :)
Vinyl is a lousy medium for classical music.
No no no no no no. My Decca's are dead silent after a clean. Can you clean your digital? No you can't. Vinyl records is a huge advantage with the analog orchestra and its warm lush tube sound. Record that on CD and it is only gonna sound lifeless and cold because of the square waveforms and artificial corrections.
Well considering CD's are dying a slow death and vinyl is slowly making it's way back, some may want to rethink their listening journey.... I'll never give up my Vinyl. I don't need some 20 y/o (who has never heard the music) remastering any classic albums because they think it sounds better.. How about getting music you love and enjoy listening to?
I wonder if that is related to vinyl recordings being a understandable format, in a world of complex technology.
You can even trace disturbances to spesific parts of the playback setup without fancy equipment. Even just handling the equipment gives sound in the speakers in a very hands on way.
CD is technically superior, but is also a "black box" you insert a disc into.
Vinyl is more like: needle moves leads to speaker moves, simplicity!
@@erlendse Possibly, I think for a lot of people there is also the nostalgia of albums.. In fact, some people actually like the crack and pop on some older albums. CD's are superior in many ways..
@@ifilmalways7122 Totally, the inperfect got a uniqueness to it.
There is the handling sounds, the dust on the disc, the placing of the needle.
And if the sound is off, there are DIY routes to fixing it.
Basically, you have some effort to play a disc, and you can tell by the noise it's a LP.
I struggle to trust a guy who drinks "perfectly cold and crisp" beer... ;-)
or only “one”.
I agree with Paul 100%
As i get older, the more i stay away from digital. For me, digital is what i use for movies on my home theatre, analogue is what i use for music. Plus i own close to 13.000 records.
You guys know Fremer’s gonna see this...lol
Sure: vinyl can be great for flooring : work shops, pantry places, basements kitchens, nothing wrong with vinyl floor, just make sure it sticks!
Paul is upset coz he chucked all his records out bwaaaaahaaaaaaa!!
cd still sounds second rate; best tho' is reel-to-reel
starts here ruclips.net/video/joFjpZ6A0qs/видео.html
My opinion on this:
There is no need for vinyl. Vinyls are definitely worse at reproducing sound than CD and a lot of other digital formats.
But if people enjoy the experience of handling vinyl that is fine. Some artists even relrease new albums onto cassettes, again for the experience.
Whether vinyl sounds better than digital probably also depends on the music genre they are listening to. I doubt that there are a lot of classic enthusiasts that prefer vinyls over digital. But for pop music the analogue distortions are sometimes interpreted as warmth (e.g. harmonic klirr)
(Disclaimer: I am not an audio professional nor did I ever conduct scientific measurements to confirm all of this)
Thomas Schmitz I’d say I agree with you for the most part. I don’t personally listen to vinyl on any of my systems but I have heard some that do sound “magical,” on others in certain songs/albums. The experience is definitely part of it, like how some people still enjoy playing retro consoles on actual equipment opposed to emulation. Some distortion can definitely be perceived as warmth such as in tubes sometimes, so you are absolutely right.
With all that said as Paul has mentioned on many occasions in comes down to the mastering of the media. A CD is absolutely superior to vinyl but if it’s compressed too much and not done properly the end result can be an inferior product.
I love audio, it’s strange how such little details can drastically effect the sound we hear.
Yes my favourite recordings are choir and orchestra recordings done by my father. He does this as a hobby and so far never applies any processing to his recordings (whether that is a good idea or not is debatable of course) and they give you the most pure and realistic sound imo.
We don’t need vinyl, we don’t need tubes, we don’t need many flavors of coffee. The best coffee is plain black coffee, because 100% unflavored coffee is best. Yes, maybe?
Some people like things slightly flavored. Vinyl and tubes give that, the type of distortion it imparts to the music can give it some degree of realism as well. Some reviews say “This solid state amp is worth $$$$, it has some tube like characteristics…”, but I have never read a review saying “This ss amp sounds very transistor like worth $$$$”. Distortions from Vinyl or tubes are not necessarily bad. Many artist distort their guitars, voices, Mastering engineers EQ the music. Plain, unflavored, pure is not always better and sometimes you want the music slightly tune for your enjoyment.
Rubbish.
You are also wrong, as Paul says it is not black & white. You really need to do AB comparisons. Recently my march towards digital was I thought unstoppable, I listen in work via a PC and a cute, effective Audioquest Dragon Fly Red DAC and recently was happily listening to a friends mid - high end system, closely analysing the sound of his £3000 CD player with a variety of music both older and fairly new and over differing genre. He had a Linn Sondek sitting there that incredibly someone had gifted him. It was a an older deck with a Rega arm and Linn K9 and an entry level Projeckt phono stage. Out of curiosity, I asked him to fire it up. We had a beer or two and let the turntable settle and compared Tracy Chapman - Tracy Chapman; Talk Talk Colour of Spring and The Neo Soul artist Malia and her complex yet moody album Divergence. I can only describe the experience as life affirming, without exception to both mine and my friends ears we were both blown away by the way the Linn reproduced these albums. There is something about vinyl that CD often doesn't capture. Hours went by without fatigue. It was something spontaneous but joyful. It made me rethink my whole system approach. I have now purchased a Linn Sondek with an Ittok arm and Audio Technica Moving Coil cartridge. Whilst my friend has upgraded his cartridge to a wonderful Dynavector MC 20x and a Schitt Manu Phono stage. The upgrades have further elevated his turntable. He now buys much of his music on Vinyl wherever possible the 190g virgin vinyl pressings. I unearthed some of my grandfathers Decca heavy Vinyl Full Frequency Stereophonic sound recordings of Mantovani and his orchestra. You may laugh but I know he looked after them but played them on a low resolving Radiogram. On the TT they are remarkabke, stunning in fact. I will be upgrading my cartridge and trying out some new phono stages like the Tom Evans etc. This experience with the Linn Sondek has forced me no more like seduced me to change. I don't think I will be purchasing a high end CD player, instead I am looking into Hi Res streaming as my second and digital source. One thought though to finish, CD is as much a flawed medium as Vinyl. The difference is summed up for me thus; CD communicates with the Brain whilst Vinyl has the ability to touch the soul.
Is there any need for Paul? The king of self promotion?
I like beer ;)
Each side of the album contains about 20 minutes of actual music. The average attention span of the average adult is 20 minutes on average. The simple, very physical action of turning the record gives enough of a break to bring the person back to themselves, in order to really listen to the next 2o minutes of music. Mediation, exercise, etc. reguires at least 20 minutes at a time.
p.s. The Album was meant to be listened to as a whole, by the artist. It's an experience, as life is! The fact that the diameter of the record is 12 inches is not a coincidence. 12-20, is found in nature and societes measurments of time, even money (Britian before decimillization in 1970)
digital for satellites, analog for music ;) or: cd is consume, LP is culture. no, both worlds are equitable. i love both :))