UPDATE: Another update: Fender has acknowledged that there is something wrong with the model (a bug) and they're going to look into it! Previous update: What Max Gutnik, Snr VP of Product, Fender, said in "the big Tone Master Pro" thread (on TGP), about the comparison vid; "Regarding the TMP model - for starters, the 5150III Stealth is not the same as the other two amps demoed in the video. The circuitry is different, and was created as something very specific Ed wanted for himself...." (and that's the version, that they modeled and got approval on). And the EVH Stealth (the only EVH modeled for now, in the TMPRo), is 6L6 tubes... They're working to add more amp models, Soldano is one, hopefully more versions of the EVH as well Great that he chimed in! Here's my response: Firstly I'm very transparent in my video and thumbnail about the fact that I'm not using the stealth model. No misinformation there. Just wanted to clarify that because someone on my channel accused me for spreading misinformation. I compared the red channels because in my opinion across all the EVH amps those channels can be dialed in to sound quite similar. Those differences can usually be dialed out by just tweaking the gain, 3-band eq and presence controls. The EVH amps are known for a specific and very characteristic tone and they all have that signature tone despite there being differences in the circuitry. As stated in my video, I've tried multiple EVH amps in my life and they all do "that thing". The other modelers also aren't based on the same amp iteration as I have. The Fractal model is based on the regular 100w EVH and the Quad Cortex on the 100w EL34 stealth. However, as can be heard in the comparison it didn't stop those modelers from being dialed in to sound really close. Something seems to be off with the TMP model and I don't know why, but it's off. If I were to use the stock cabs it would defeat the purpose of this test because in my opinion all modelers should be using the same IR. Every modeler loads IRs these days and it's a feature that works well for many people and the modelers to emulate the sound of using a "custom" speaker and cab. I understand (again as mentioned in the video) that there will be differences in impedance curves, the Quad Cortex and Axe Fx III surely have different impedance curves than my RedSeven reactive load however and again, it didn't stop those platforms from sounding accurate despite those differences. And even if the overall EQ curves weren't accurate because of impedance mismatch, the dynamics and Distortion character should still be accurate, which it is not. Guys, I made an objective comparison with no intent to make anybody look bad. I level matched everything to make the test as clear as possible. This simply is how the gear sounds. I wanted the TMP to succeed because it's a cool device. If you watch my review you can see that I'm quite positive for the most part while I also state my criticisms on things that can be improved upon. Don't shoot the messenger. Some notes: - I forgot to add the St. Rock Amperium Live, oops! Will feature it the next time. - As I said in the video I really enjoy the Tone Master Pro, as you can see and hear in my review but I was really surprised by the sound that I got from the EVH models. Maybe there is something wrong there, like a bug? I hope Fender looks at this from a positive angle and that they hopefully will spend time to improve upon this model. Since it's software it can be updated right? And that this amp model isn't accurate doesn't mean that the TMP is a bad device because it's definitely not, this amp model could use some work though... - Thought I sold my Quad Cortex? Yes, that's correct! I got a very good deal on one so I couldn't pass that up because of my f.o.m.o. I'm glad I did it because now I can feature it in videos like this one again. I also wanted to try the editor and plugin integration. Cheers!
Disheartening to see the B.S. that you are taking. This only a few days after your 'honesty' video. Keep calling it like you see it. Reminds me of Rabea when he compared the Kemper with the QC and got attacked. Regardless, keep doing what you are doing, and the less intelligent viewers will wean themselves out. The viewers that remain will learn to appreciate that you're a stand-up guy.
Nice job! The Axe FX, as usual, did the best job of preserving upper harmonics with chords. Timestamps for comparison: 6:296:366:436:50 The real amp is still just a tiny touch better, but this is always the “tell” that I can use to identify the real amp and different modelers in comparisons like these. The poorer the modeler, the more those upper harmonics get smeared away. In severe cases like the TMP, it even causes the voicing of the chord to sound slightly different (highest notes from the harmonics are different/lower in pitch).
I appreciate your honesty on this content. It definitely helps showcase the strengths and weaknesses of these units. We all have to be patient with the Tonemaster cause it just released. They definitely have work to do. I'm glad you got a deal on the QC again. It would be cool if you sold captures of your amps. Obviously my own selfish QC capture addiction needs its fix. However, I believe you have some of the best amp tones on the RUclips. Cheers!
@dv8322 it's really hard to say what sounds good or bad. Cause you could play an amp or amp Sim with a different guitar and it sounds better. I know cause this has happened to me recently with the Quad capture stuff. The easiest way is just shoot out different guitars and amps and see what sounds good.
I'm not saying the QC was more accurate than the Fractal, but it really captured that Marshall in-your-face upper mids. For that reason I liked it the most. I own the 50w EL34 head and also the Fractal FM9 and the FM9 sounds and feels great, but now I am interested to try messing with the power section of the model and see if putting some digital EL34s in it brings it closer to what I like about the QC
Excellent content as always Jon. This confirms what I feel, that real amplifiers are still king, and they'll always take the edge sonically and in terms of feel. However, This also makes me feel ever the more grateful for my Quad Cortex, as for my use-case scenario and budget, it provides me with amply great tones and feel for what I'm doing! You've definitely cemented my view that if I ever get a real amplifier, it'll be a 5153 of some flavor. Sounds so good.
I agree. It’s easier to hear the difference when coming straight from the amp to the device and not hearing another device first. Or time code stamps to jump around perhaps? But, still a good video. A little surprising for sure
To me, in each case the realism/matching quality was in the exact order that you presented them (Amp/Axe FX/QC/Fender). I even first listened to this without watching the screen, so I went completely by what my ears told me. Great comparison, and your riffs are awesome as always.
In my opinion, they all sound great! All of these modeling companies are amazing! As guitarists, we are very lucky to have this technology readily available in the studio or live environment. Personally, I thought the Fractal Audio sounded the closest to the real amp. Maybe I'm being bias as I own a FM3 that I absolutely love! Keep on rockin' everyone! It's all good!
Your ordering really goes from best to worst here (speaking of the 50 W, which I prefer over the LBX). Great recording quality. A fun/nerdy thing would maybe to try this, but with a 100% EQ matching in post to "force" the modellers closer to the target.
personal opinion, i am an owner of QC, and after watching comparisons online, Fractal sound better to my ears. but hey, they are all amazing, and each sound is unique and each person is unique as well. so enjoy whatever you got and metal-on
I agree with your conclusions, and appreciate your objectivity. Without hearing the actual Amp Fender used to create their modeled version in the TMP, I can't comment on how closely it reproduced the original. It was certainly the most different compared to everything else.
So on the 50W EVH EL34s my clear winner was the Quad Cortex - it sounded different bit in a cool way. Fractal was almost indistinguishable. For the LBX the same was true. The Quad Cortex had more of a mid-range agression. But OMG the Fender sounded so last decade AMP sim VST.
@algorithm007ify Its the 50w 6L6 "Stealth" model, which is nearly identical to the regular 50w 6L6. I own both the EL34 and 6L6 versions of the 50w amps. There is hardly a difference in sound between them. The only major difference is the blue channel, and that's due to an added resistor in the circuitry, not the tubes. Any way you spin it, the Tonemaster Pro version of the amp is just way off.
@@algorithm007ifyAll of the physical 5150, 6505, 6534, 5150 III, Iconic sound EXTREMELY close in every way. There's several shootouts with comparisons. Kyle Bull has one off the top of my head. The tubes do give slightly different sounds, but not anywhere near the differences in the comparison Jon did in this video. From Peavey all the way to current day, the 5150 has been designed by John Brown if I'm not mistaken.
Funny you say I think the QC is pretty close but the real amp definitely has more top end than the Fractal. The fractal seems to have more mids. But those two are close enough
@@SonicDriveStudiothe models might be "good", but as their own thing, they aren't good in the sense that they are replicas of the real deal, which they aren't, if that makes sense.
@@JohnWiku You have 6,000 IR's to customize the sound. My customized presets sound great by themselves, in a mix, on headphones or thru FRFR cabs. The TMP is a great unit. It's Fender's flagship which they going to support. 8 cores give it longevity to update the software with.
@@QuoVadis88 they should have done something better at the start, I bought a tmp and it will leave I'm disappointed to have trusted big F 🤑🤑. 8 core ok 🤣🤣 they should have slapped fractal with so much power and dollars 💵
To be honest, as far as I can tell based on this YT video and the audio processing, the Axe FX to me came closest to the original amp. The Tone Master Pro surprisingly disappointed us here. Taking into consideration that they're using licensed tech, this is not acceptable from an unit that costs that much! Great video overall! Thanks for the comparison.
For me it's closest to AX FX, Quad is also close, Tone Master is unfortunately a modeled sound. But the first two are great. Very very close. Best regards, great job!
I bought the 50W 5150 III EL34 because of your original demo 🤘 I thought that the AXE FX sounded closest to the actual amp, followed closely by the Quad Cortex (very subtle differences). The Fender modeller sounded bit lifeless, was missing a lot of that crunchy forward midrange that the 5150 lineage is known for. Great demo as usual!
I'm glad to see good 'ole AxeFX sounding so good in this comparison. I have a unit, and even though when comparing the models to the real amps I own there is a small difference, I like the covenience and flexibility of the AxeFX. I also use captures, but I enjoy going back to the great tweakability of the AxeFX models.
Would have liked to see a ToneX capture on this because I find they can't handle the gain at these levels... interesting to see how well it did or didnt hold up. NAM and Tonocracy seem to be holding up better for high gain captures ITB. Part of me wanted to rush out and pickup a Fender TMP and I'm glad I didnt... not a ton of high gain stuff and looks like they have some tweaking to go cause it doesnt sound great.
From other reviews I've seen, the 5150iii el34 does sound noticeably different from the 5150 stealth, so it would be really interesting to compare that, apples to apples so to speak. But, I agree, the real amp and the other units did sound better than the Tonemaster pro in this comparison. Thanks!
Wow. The TMP is way off. I bet they'll fix this in an update. In this comparison, I like the real amp best. Fractal and QC were perfectly fine as well.
Interesting comparison. You'd expect subtle difference from model to model based on the nuances of the equipment and the "human" factor when capturing them. The fact you compared 2 versions of the physical amp shows that their characteristics are similar, yet the TMP model was in a completely different spectrum. Maybe they are 1.0 models and they will be improved in the future. Nice investigative work ;)
I have the TMP and am interested as when i play it via the FR 12 or record it does not suffer this almost scooped mid range. Maybe it could have been dialled to sound more in line with the others and at that point would be the same. It simply doesn't sound dull in the room or when i use it like that
Yeah the TMP EVH sounded more like a super scooped mesa. Weird. You should test some other amps to see if a lot of them are inaccurate or it's just that one.
All of these comparison videos have been created using the same method. They are sending the amp models into the same 3rd party IR and this is a totally valid test. We (Fender) have already stated that (for now) this will yield less authentic results than using our factory IRs. We are already working on (and were long before these videos were posted) implementing more capabilities into our 3rd party IR block that will enable the desired results. This will also have a positive outcome when using external IRs and/or a SS power amp driving a real cabinet. Today (12/3) is literally the 2nd month post-launch for TM Pro. We have a long roadmap of updates planned that include not only new features and models but also tweaks to current features that were in the product on launch day. We (Fender) really appreciate the engagement and feedback we’ve gotten thus far and are excited to implement some of the suggestions. The best part about all products like this is the ability for continuous improvement that enhances the playing experience on all platforms. We’re excited to have you all be a part of that process. Jason S. - Product Director, Fender Amps
The thing that I notice in the real amp is that there is a seperation of notes when single string notes are played into chords. Listen to 11:16 and you can hear there is a better seperation of the notes, whereas the modelers sound like everything becomes a compressed mush.
in the mix of the song, I walked around the room and I 100% couldn't tell you one from the other. Isolated on the other hand, I could REALLY tell a difference
Sounds so good. Your riffs and mixes are just perfect. Every damn time. I don't know how you do it, but your mix master is to my ears every time just on another level. Any thoughts on a video tutorial on your low end for bass and your drum process? Great work John as always! As for the video, I thought the Fender Tone Master Pro sounded interesting.
Your comparison as always is excellent. I have not liked the EVH models in any of the other Tone Master Pro demo videos that I have watched so it's definitely an opportunity for Fender to improve . I have a 50W Stealth and it has at least as much gain as your EL34 red channel..
its crazy because in the mix i prefered the Fender. But the isolated tracks were so obvious. I know they will drop more amps soon so lets see if they give a version that is what you have. I'd love to see you shoot it out again. Nice video!!!
I thought the Fender sounded better in the mix as well. Once you take out the track though the Fender was the only one I didn't like. It sounded muffled even with the highs cranked. The other three sounded great.
You do a good job. I enjoy watching your posts. I am glad Max Gutnick reached out to you and is taking steps to give you the experience you want with the TMP. You are comparing EL34 tubes to 6L6 tubes. Of course they are going to sound different. Plus the other modelers don't have the EVH Stealth amp. There are 6,000 IR's to choose from, different mic placements, mics, compression etc. You can easily dial in preferred sounds as I have done on my own TMP. My TMP sounds great with headphones or FRFR cabs. There are hundreds of ways to tailor the sound. The TMP does not suck. You take a preset and customize it to your preference. In your review of the TMP you praised many of the amp models it had and many of the features. I use the TMP every day. I have other modeler units and the TMP is by far the most versatile and easy to dial in great tones. A side by side comparison is not very good if the amps are not the same. EL34 tubes sound very different from 6L6 tubes. There are hundreds of variations in mic placement and mics. Plus the updates are coming at Xmas. Fender did not spend 3 months modeling the EVH amp to make it sound bad. I use the tools the TMP provides to tailor my sound. I never use the presets as is. The presets are a starting point, not the end point. I have a TMP. I have a Stealth EVH, you do not. I have a TMP that I have customized the presets on. It sounds great. All my customized presets sound great. I have many tube amps so I know what a tube amp sounds like. My tube amps range from a hand-made 20 watt '64 Custom Deluxe Reverb to a Mesa Boogie Triple Crown 100 watt head with a vertical 2x12 Rectifier cab. I have many modelers and I know what they sound like. The under-rated flagship Boss GT-1000 is a great unit. I use it for bass and guitar. When it first came out there was nothing for bass players on it. The Xmas updates for the TMP will include something for bass players. The You can be sure Fender knows all about your comments, and will respond with the Xmas updates to satisfy you and any followers who may have been led astray.
I liked the video (and like it that you got a QC back for comparisons)! One thing I do wish you could have done before ending this was to try and tweak the 5150 TMP model to see how close you could get it with tweaking it with EQ, etc or just the parameters to try and get it closer to your amp. With it being two different models perhaps their model does sound darker or something? Would have liked to hear the comparison after some tweaking was applied just to see how it reacted. Thanks!
The Axe FX is almost identical to the amp. All you need to do is add a post EQ with a 1-2db low and high shelf boost, and it will match and be "3D" like the amp.
Your videos are excellent. Thank you again for a great comparison, I don't like the EL34 5150 but regardless, the Fractal and Quad Coretex are not far off, lack some air (high harmonics) and low impact (softened transients) but there are many variables, some could tweaking possibly get even closer. In a mix unlikely anyone would know the difference.
The EL34 is my favorite of the EVH amps by a pretty fair margin. Guess I'm just surprised when people hate on it because I've had just about everything and that bad boy stands out as a top 10 amp. Maybe top 5 for high gain for me.
@@SonicDriveStudio I do really like some 50w Marshall JMP Mk2 style amps, I find the EVH and Suhr equivalents both more raw/shouty in mids character and similar situation with Mesa amps trying for a Marshall tone like Deuce Stiletto. For example Marshall SV20H has great flutey juicy mids closer to the old JMPs, that's a nice sounding EL34 amp even if not a true plexi circuit.
@@SonicDriveStudio - I compared the 50w 6L6 & EL34 versions, and ended with the 6L6. Its just 'cleaner and punchy', and the EL34 is more 'hairy and thicker'.
Owned the 5153 el34 50 watt since it came out. I've never loved it even after upgraded some components and retubing, but you're clips always make it shine. I'm no snob by any means, but the actual head really does sounds more '3d' and has a very crisp and bright top end the other lacked
Your (25 year old) observations are correct. My (66 year old) observations are also correct. I listened with studio headphones and in some cases I preferred the TMP sound and sometimes Fractal but never QC. I have a TMP. I listen to it with studio headphones and FRFR cabs, two Fender FR-12 cabs for that stereo Wall of Sound. I can see why my buddy raves about the Fractal and the 99.99% accuracy. Van Halen himself said, "If it sounds good, it is good." Whether in a mix or isolated I like the TMP just fine. I have tinnitus and the QC is like nails on a blackboard. The Fractal is crisp, but the TMP is more musical to my ears. Pleasant like a tube amp that you can listen to for hours. That is the point. I can listen to the TMP for hours, but not with the others, whether in a mix but especially isolated.
Damn. Compared to the Axe FX and the Quad Cortex, the Tonemaster kinda sounds like and old Line 6 Pod back when you had to hard cut the highs to control the fizz. Thats pretty disappointing.
Great comparision video. I agree with you in every detail. I also own EVH 5153 100w i QC and I think (for now) there is still something missing in that neural sound - Although neuraldsp sounds best for me
The axe fx and cortex sounded like the actual amp. On the fender modeler, it almost sounded like the mic placement feature was off or something in the IR section.
Like usual imo, real amps are more open and less harsh in some frequencies..the fractal sounded the closest then the qc and tge fender really was a disappointment, very boxy sounding.. i am a fractal user and love it but real amps are just a step above..thanks as always for the videos.
Great video, if you ever run out of content you could always do the same shootouts with the amps you own compared to the digital platforms. As always great job
There's no lie, people. FX AXE3 is supreme; QC is 2nd; and Fender TMP is the last. However, Fender is not even close...it can't even compete. I'm so glad I bought my FM9 a few months ago. Now, Fractal just updated the new Cygnus X-3 and it sounds even a lot more like a REAL amp than before. For all Live player, there's no more "Gap" between all Presets and Scenes (FYI). Everything are seamless. Lol. Thanks to Fractal and Thanks comparing these system. It just reminds me that I'm glad I bought Fractal.
Yeah I own a Stealth 100 and cab as well as the Tone Master Pro. You have to put way more time into getting the tone right than the way you set it up. Split cabs, 121 and a 57 mic and use their IR’s which work way better that OH IR’s currently. If the update fixes the user IR’s issue than Disregard. Also you stated issues with phasing which I haven’t dealt with in split cabs. But I send both cabs out on a stereo channel to my Console. If their where any I could easily fix them in my DAW since I do live mic’s of cabs as well, so I’m used to this issue.
I didn't listen on my studio monitors/treated room, I was in my bedroom on my not very fancy tv. I'm a long time audio engineer. I thought the modelers all sounded weird. Both amps sounded GREAT with nothing weird about them at all. Actually I was surprised, on my tv I liked the lunchbox amp the best. But every one of the models had something about it that sounded thin or cold or whatever. Modelers are just like that, you did a fine job in capturing them truthfully. FWIW I'm not anti modelers at all. I have a Helix LT, Helix Native and own a ton of other amp sim plugins. I even sometimes prefer Marshall JMP/Plexi models to my own actual 1974 JMP haha. Sometimes a modeler is just easier to play. Also something else worth noting. I noticed afterwards that my tv was on cinema mode for its sound. So there was some weird dynamics being applied to the video. What I found interesting was, the real amps didn't trigger the tv's dynamics processing while the modelers all had the tv struggling to make sense of its input signal, causing the volume to jump around. But not the hardware amps.
What is blowing my mind is the new Friedman preamp. It's not 5150ish but it got me ignoring all of my modelers. Channel 2 on it sounds sort of like the blue channel on my 5153 stealth except more 80ish.
The Axe FX III was the closest to the original with the quad cortex coming in a close 2nd. They were both both very close to the original. Fender has some work to do on the tonemaster as there was a noticeable difference. I'm sure they will fix it with upcoming patches though.
Thank you for putting this video together with so much thought. Did you remember to switch the tubes from EL34 to 6L6 in the Fractal? Just curious. I believe the default is the EL34.
The QC model has some extra upper mid "push" to it and "bass cut" carved out so you're not hearing the low end rumble ... . Really "pops" nicely... Kind of "mix ready"
On RUclips with the algorithms for sound, it's hard to hear the differences. I'm an old school guy and for decades nothing could replace my old Marshall 1987 50 lead and pedals, until i plugged straight into a Mesa Mark V 25. Hell in a lunchbox. It made me laugh and rethink my tone within the first 5 minutes of playing it. The only digital device that has that response from me through cabs is the Axe FX 3. It has a "rudeness" to the sound that the others don't get, at least in my ears. The difference between hitting the strings hard and really hard doesn't really equate for me on the Tone Master. That chug is cold and calculate whereas the Axe FX just makes you smile and want to stomp the stage.
Nice job here! I thought the models all sounded pretty good. It seemed to me the Fender Tone Pro is EQ'd and somewhat lifeless for lack of a better term. Almost like they were trying to mask higher frequencies or sounding too digital. One thing that cannot be captured on video/audio is the players response, how does it "feel" in comparison to the real analog tube amps. That and how a modeler reacts to guitar volume roll off decide it for me 9 times outta 10. I'd be interested in a comparison video using captures of your 5150 III El-34 with captures from the modelers. I have plenty of tube amps/cabs and love them all but I do own a Quad Cortex as well as amp plugins from UAD and Neural. I embrace the tech and man it has gotten REALLY good the last few years. The captures are getting really hard to distinguish from real or capture. The downside for me is "selection overload" way too many options to pick an choose from. I find it better to start from scratch or edit a preset that is close to what you're looking for. I do think with tweaking you can get the tone almost exact if don't looks so much at knobs/amp settings.
In the Mix The Stealth sounded best to me !! Is it an exact replica maybe not ! Do I care , no !! As long as it sounds good to my ears ! Maybe I have a bad ears 🤷🏻♂️ still gonna buy the TMP !!
As soon as I heard the Fender in this video and saw you had the Presence and Highs cranked I knew it was disappointing. Usually when these sims sound a little off the usual response is to EQ the problem frequencies out or back in. Glad to see you showed that you tried to dial up the high end, but it still just missed the mark there. I think it's pretty clear that amp captures are the future as opposed to digitally recreated amps like the Helix and Fender Tone Master. I'm not saying either of those sound bad, but they just don't quite hit the mark when stuff like the Kemper and Quad Cortex sound almost identical to the real deal amps.
Fractal Sounds as close to the 5150 amp. But....prefer QC over all. It has it has its own personalty and has that dark midrange heard on the VH III CD. China Town Vibe. Tone Pro lagging.
I hope Fender works overtime on this issue and gets the updates out ASAP. I have a TMP so I am an interested party. I have been quite happy with how I have been able to use and customize the presets. I believe in Fender and the TMP. However, this test makes the TMP EVH preset look bad. How many updates has the Fractal had or did the Fractal sound this good out of the gate. Would it have been more fair to give Fender one update before the test. The QC has had updates too. But the Fractal is the 99.99% standard to be judged by. I have a buddy who is a Fractal wizard and he says that is the one to beat. I don't need a Fractal. The TMP can work well enough for me. I am happy with the headphone sound and the FRFR cab sound. Happy with playing solo or in a mix in a band. However, the price demands updates. I expect excellence from Fender. If you want to play in the big leagues, you need big league performance. Max, you've done the market research, now get to work.
I thought the stealth was a little bit different and that could explain why the model within the fender unit would sound differently I mean I don't think it's supposed to sound like the 5153 EL 34. I've never played the two back to back at the same time so if I'm wrong hey I'd be glad to know it but that's my guess is to why they would sound so different
UPDATE: We've now heard other evidence of the red channel not sounding exactly like the 5150IIIs...based on that, it does appear to be a bug more so than the speaker impedance curve. It's absolutely critical that it's as perfect a replication of the actual channel as possible. That's the standard we've set for TMP, so we'll take a look and get it sorted asap. Thanks Jon, and thanks everyone!
Thanks Max. I love my TMP. Sounds great thru studio headphones. Looking forward to the updates. I ordered two FR 12 cabs for January 2024 for that stereo Wall Of Sound. Hopefully that hiss thing is EQ'd out. I have a Supersonic 22 head with Mesa Boogie Rectifier cab that sounds great. Also, a Mesa Boogie Triple Crown Head with 2x12 Vertical Rectifier cab. And the handwired '64 Custom Deluxe Reverb. I love ducking delay as on the Boss DD-200. I like the X-Metal sound on the Boss OD-200. If you can get more than 1 minute on the looper, maybe 10 minutes, and have it two track like on the Boss RC-500. I love my Fender Ultra Luxe HSS Floyd Rose Strat with noiseless pickups and stainless steel frets. I love my Player Precision bass. Can you incorporate something like a Beat Buddy into the TMP? Love Fender. Leo said, Form follows function.
If I just compare the sounds, the AXE FX was very close to the amps, the Quat Cortex was different in a good way and has a bit more clarity and sparkling in the tones, the Tone Master Pro is darker and has not the clarity in the tones and sounds like a different amp. But it's also a matter of taste and what sounds your looking for. 😊🤘
First and foremost, GREAT JOB! I am listening with totally flat Slate VSX Cans. I’m laughing because out of all of the modelers you would think that the “LICENSED EVH” version from Fender would be exact when actually it was not even close to being remotely the same. The closest one here was without question the Quad Cortex. The Fractal was my second choice but came in a little too hot and bright. If anyone buys the Tonemaster for the EVH side alone, you just proved it’s not going to sound but if anything darker and constricted compared to the rest of the candidates in this shootout. I own both Fractal and Neural platforms and prefer Neural.
I thought the tonemaster sounded very good but very different, but then again it's modeling a different amp so who knows. Peavy 5150 versions all sound extremely different from one another and the same goes for different models.
I didn't expect how awesome the real amp sounded. Axe Fx III was so close to (or even better than) a real amp throughout many comparison videos and clips, but the EVH 5150 EL34 slayed it this time. TMP's 5150 is a sheer joke considering its price. Even budget modelers and free amp sim plugins can do much better.
I honestly couldn't tell the difference in or out between EVH and Axe FX, tiny difference with the QC. But the Fender was way off, artifacts and buzz too. THen I read, that Fender acknowledges it's got issues. Yep And of course, you can adjust that feel on the Axe FX.
They all sound great and the same for the most part with very subtle differences, most people would never notice. If you did a blind test everyone would be wrong except for a few lucky guesses. Especially in the mix. I think to do a true comparison you need to take out the drums and bass. Just straight guitar into an FRFR. To me Fender wins just for the easy UI. My guess is all the big names will be coming out with better units very shortly. Everyone looking for a better UI.
With fresh ears, but headphones. I felt like the fender tonemaster was the most different out of all of them. And the amp itself was the best sounding. Of course. But in a live show for the player and the crowd, I bet it doesnt really matter if its loud for both of them. Fender tonemaster sounded like it was lacking in all frequencies. Dissapointing from fender. Edit: You actually said the same thing. Maybe they will redo it in a patch update?
Fractal - Damn near identical. Really clear across lows, mids and highs. QC - Very close, but more cardboardy midrange and a little less lows and highs. Fender - Awful. Flat, dark and fuzzy sounding. Yeesh.
All sounded pretty decent and close to the original. I don't think I will ever have to pay for excess baggage again... And any of them will cost the same as your favorite 5150, ENGL ou Mesa 100w head. Even if you buy a 170w PoweStage. My 2 cents: buy your favorite amp, leave it in your house, and gig with the Fractal, Quad Cortex, Kemper or Tone Master Pro.
UPDATE:
Another update: Fender has acknowledged that there is something wrong with the model (a bug) and they're going to look into it!
Previous update:
What Max Gutnik, Snr VP of Product, Fender, said in "the big Tone Master Pro" thread (on TGP), about the comparison vid;
"Regarding the TMP model - for starters, the 5150III Stealth is not the same as the other two amps demoed in the video. The circuitry is different, and was created as something very specific Ed wanted for himself...." (and that's the version, that they modeled and got approval on).
And the EVH Stealth (the only EVH modeled for now, in the TMPRo), is 6L6 tubes...
They're working to add more amp models, Soldano is one, hopefully more versions of the EVH as well
Great that he chimed in! Here's my response:
Firstly I'm very transparent in my video and thumbnail about the fact that I'm not using the stealth model. No misinformation there. Just wanted to clarify that because someone on my channel accused me for spreading misinformation.
I compared the red channels because in my opinion across all the EVH amps those channels can be dialed in to sound quite similar. Those differences can usually be dialed out by just tweaking the gain, 3-band eq and presence controls. The EVH amps are known for a specific and very characteristic tone and they all have that signature tone despite there being differences in the circuitry. As stated in my video, I've tried multiple EVH amps in my life and they all do "that thing".
The other modelers also aren't based on the same amp iteration as I have. The Fractal model is based on the regular 100w EVH and the Quad Cortex on the 100w EL34 stealth. However, as can be heard in the comparison it didn't stop those modelers from being dialed in to sound really close. Something seems to be off with the TMP model and I don't know why, but it's off.
If I were to use the stock cabs it would defeat the purpose of this test because in my opinion all modelers should be using the same IR. Every modeler loads IRs these days and it's a feature that works well for many people and the modelers to emulate the sound of using a "custom" speaker and cab. I understand (again as mentioned in the video) that there will be differences in impedance curves, the Quad Cortex and Axe Fx III surely have different impedance curves than my RedSeven reactive load however and again, it didn't stop those platforms from sounding accurate despite those differences.
And even if the overall EQ curves weren't accurate because of impedance mismatch, the dynamics and Distortion character should still be accurate, which it is not.
Guys, I made an objective comparison with no intent to make anybody look bad. I level matched everything to make the test as clear as possible. This simply is how the gear sounds. I wanted the TMP to succeed because it's a cool device. If you watch my review you can see that I'm quite positive for the most part while I also state my criticisms on things that can be improved upon. Don't shoot the messenger.
Some notes:
- I forgot to add the St. Rock Amperium Live, oops! Will feature it the next time.
- As I said in the video I really enjoy the Tone Master Pro, as you can see and hear in my review but I was really surprised by the sound that I got from the EVH models. Maybe there is something wrong there, like a bug? I hope Fender looks at this from a positive angle and that they hopefully will spend time to improve upon this model. Since it's software it can be updated right? And that this amp model isn't accurate doesn't mean that the TMP is a bad device because it's definitely not, this amp model could use some work though...
- Thought I sold my Quad Cortex? Yes, that's correct! I got a very good deal on one so I couldn't pass that up because of my f.o.m.o. I'm glad I did it because now I can feature it in videos like this one again. I also wanted to try the editor and plugin integration.
Cheers!
Planning on doing any QC capture packs??
Also free solutions like NAM make these overpriced gadgets run for their money 😂
@dv8322 the Fractal is modeled on the 6L6 but trust me, the differences between all the EVH red channels are not THAT big
@dv8322 it's a fun device, I recommend checking out my full review!
Disheartening to see the B.S. that you are taking. This only a few days after your 'honesty' video. Keep calling it like you see it. Reminds me of Rabea when he compared the Kemper with the QC and got attacked. Regardless, keep doing what you are doing, and the less intelligent viewers will wean themselves out. The viewers that remain will learn to appreciate that you're a stand-up guy.
Axe Fx and Quad Cortex are supreme beside the real amp! Very impressive!
Nice job! The Axe FX, as usual, did the best job of preserving upper harmonics with chords. Timestamps for comparison: 6:29 6:36 6:43 6:50
The real amp is still just a tiny touch better, but this is always the “tell” that I can use to identify the real amp and different modelers in comparisons like these. The poorer the modeler, the more those upper harmonics get smeared away. In severe cases like the TMP, it even causes the voicing of the chord to sound slightly different (highest notes from the harmonics are different/lower in pitch).
You nailed it. Fractal baby! Fender of Tone: Master of None.
I appreciate your honesty on this content. It definitely helps showcase the strengths and weaknesses of these units. We all have to be patient with the Tonemaster cause it just released. They definitely have work to do. I'm glad you got a deal on the QC again. It would be cool if you sold captures of your amps. Obviously my own selfish QC capture addiction needs its fix. However, I believe you have some of the best amp tones on the RUclips. Cheers!
@dv8322 it's really hard to say what sounds good or bad. Cause you could play an amp or amp Sim with a different guitar and it sounds better. I know cause this has happened to me recently with the Quad capture stuff. The easiest way is just shoot out different guitars and amps and see what sounds good.
I'm not saying the QC was more accurate than the Fractal, but it really captured that Marshall in-your-face upper mids. For that reason I liked it the most. I own the 50w EL34 head and also the Fractal FM9 and the FM9 sounds and feels great, but now I am interested to try messing with the power section of the model and see if putting some digital EL34s in it brings it closer to what I like about the QC
Maaaan that QC sounds incredible. Not a fan of the representation of the stealth with the tone master but hopefully it gets better!
Audio Assault does the EL34 and 6L6. They're based on the 50w versions as well, not the 100Ws.
Excellent content as always Jon. This confirms what I feel, that real amplifiers are still king, and they'll always take the edge sonically and in terms of feel. However, This also makes me feel ever the more grateful for my Quad Cortex, as for my use-case scenario and budget, it provides me with amply great tones and feel for what I'm doing! You've definitely cemented my view that if I ever get a real amplifier, it'll be a 5153 of some flavor. Sounds so good.
Fun comparison! Wish the control was compared to each model individually. Amp, Axe-Fx, Amp, QC, Amp, etc.
I thought about that, maybe in future videos I can do that but I don't want to make them too long
I agree. It’s easier to hear the difference when coming straight from the amp to the device and not hearing another device first. Or time code stamps to jump around perhaps? But, still a good video. A little surprising for sure
To me, in each case the realism/matching quality was in the exact order that you presented them (Amp/Axe FX/QC/Fender). I even first listened to this without watching the screen, so I went completely by what my ears told me. Great comparison, and your riffs are awesome as always.
In my opinion, they all sound great! All of these modeling companies are amazing! As guitarists, we are very lucky to have this technology readily available in the studio or live environment. Personally, I thought the Fractal Audio sounded the closest to the real amp. Maybe I'm being bias as I own a FM3 that I absolutely love! Keep on rockin' everyone! It's all good!
Your ordering really goes from best to worst here (speaking of the 50 W, which I prefer over the LBX). Great recording quality. A fun/nerdy thing would maybe to try this, but with a 100% EQ matching in post to "force" the modellers closer to the target.
Would love a Kemper vs ToneX with captures done of any amp(s) by Sonic Drive, I trust to do the profiling well.
personal opinion, i am an owner of QC, and after watching comparisons online, Fractal sound better to my ears. but hey, they are all amazing, and each sound is unique and each person is unique as well. so enjoy whatever you got and metal-on
I agree with your conclusions, and appreciate your objectivity. Without hearing the actual Amp Fender used to create their modeled version in the TMP, I can't comment on how closely it reproduced the original. It was certainly the most different compared to everything else.
So on the 50W EVH EL34s my clear winner was the Quad Cortex - it sounded different bit in a cool way. Fractal was almost indistinguishable. For the LBX the same was true. The Quad Cortex had more of a mid-range agression. But OMG the Fender sounded so last decade AMP sim VST.
Axe fx sounds closest and is almost indistinguishable. The QC is close. The tone master is quite different.
I feel like the quad cortex is closer to the real deal than comes Fractal
The Fractal and QC are basically indistinguishable from the real thing. The Tonemaster Pro was so far off it was comical.
Funny, it’s a different amp with different power tubes
@algorithm007ify Its the 50w 6L6 "Stealth" model, which is nearly identical to the regular 50w 6L6. I own both the EL34 and 6L6 versions of the 50w amps. There is hardly a difference in sound between them. The only major difference is the blue channel, and that's due to an added resistor in the circuitry, not the tubes. Any way you spin it, the Tonemaster Pro version of the amp is just way off.
@@algorithm007ifyAll of the physical 5150, 6505, 6534, 5150 III, Iconic sound EXTREMELY close in every way. There's several shootouts with comparisons. Kyle Bull has one off the top of my head. The tubes do give slightly different sounds, but not anywhere near the differences in the comparison Jon did in this video. From Peavey all the way to current day, the 5150 has been designed by John Brown if I'm not mistaken.
Funny you say I think the QC is pretty close but the real amp definitely has more top end than the Fractal. The fractal seems to have more mids.
But those two are close enough
Agree 100000%
How can Fender mess up the modeling of their own amps so badly?
The Fender amp models are pretty good actually! This EVH is just weird for some reason
@@SonicDriveStudiothe models might be "good", but as their own thing, they aren't good in the sense that they are replicas of the real deal, which they aren't, if that makes sense.
@@JohnWiku You have 6,000 IR's to customize the sound. My customized presets sound great by themselves, in a mix, on headphones or thru FRFR cabs. The TMP is a great unit. It's Fender's flagship which they going to support. 8 cores give it longevity to update the software with.
@@QuoVadis88 they should have done something better at the start, I bought a tmp and it will leave I'm disappointed to have trusted big F 🤑🤑. 8 core ok 🤣🤣 they should have slapped fractal with so much power and dollars 💵
TMP has the hardware. Software is upgradable. I have faith in Fender on this. Fender knows their asses are on the line with this.@@dam7577
To be honest, as far as I can tell based on this YT video and the audio processing, the Axe FX to me came closest to the original amp. The Tone Master Pro surprisingly disappointed us here. Taking into consideration that they're using licensed tech, this is not acceptable from an unit that costs that much! Great video overall! Thanks for the comparison.
Hey man I love your videos! Glad to see you’ve reacquired a QC. Hope to see more QC content or even captures in the future.
For me it's closest to AX FX, Quad is also close, Tone Master is unfortunately a modeled sound. But the first two are great. Very very close. Best regards, great job!
I bought the 50W 5150 III EL34 because of your original demo 🤘 I thought that the AXE FX sounded closest to the actual amp, followed closely by the Quad Cortex (very subtle differences). The Fender modeller sounded bit lifeless, was missing a lot of that crunchy forward midrange that the 5150 lineage is known for. Great demo as usual!
I'm glad to see good 'ole AxeFX sounding so good in this comparison. I have a unit, and even though when comparing the models to the real amps I own there is a small difference, I like the covenience and flexibility of the AxeFX. I also use captures, but I enjoy going back to the great tweakability of the AxeFX models.
Great job can really hear the difference between the real amp and the modelers when you did the harmonics. Amp = pure tone :)
Would have liked to see a ToneX capture on this because I find they can't handle the gain at these levels... interesting to see how well it did or didnt hold up.
NAM and Tonocracy seem to be holding up better for high gain captures ITB.
Part of me wanted to rush out and pickup a Fender TMP and I'm glad I didnt... not a ton of high gain stuff and looks like they have some tweaking to go cause it doesnt sound great.
Would love to have some captures from you on the QC!
the more I listen, the more I just want to get a tube amp with reactive load ...
Metallica (Re)Load
Do it. Get a couple lunchboxes and a Captor. Best decision I've made.
@@negromister i agree. did the same. nothign beats the real thing
Real amp definitely has some liveliness and magic that is missing in the others. Great test!
From other reviews I've seen, the 5150iii el34 does sound noticeably different from the 5150 stealth, so it would be really interesting to compare that, apples to apples so to speak. But, I agree, the real amp and the other units did sound better than the Tonemaster pro in this comparison. Thanks!
I know there's no EVH in Helix but I cannot wait to hear this type of comparison with tone master pro and L6 Helix!
Line 6 should add one for sure!
Quad Cortex now is the ruler closer ....nice T-shirt !!!! The rest modelers are also very good of course..
Wow. The TMP is way off. I bet they'll fix this in an update. In this comparison, I like the real amp best. Fractal and QC were perfectly fine as well.
Interesting comparison. You'd expect subtle difference from model to model based on the nuances of the equipment and the "human" factor when capturing them. The fact you compared 2 versions of the physical amp shows that their characteristics are similar, yet the TMP model was in a completely different spectrum. Maybe they are 1.0 models and they will be improved in the future. Nice investigative work ;)
I have the TMP and am interested as when i play it via the FR 12 or record it does not suffer this almost scooped mid range. Maybe it could have been dialled to sound more in line with the others and at that point would be the same. It simply doesn't sound dull in the room or when i use it like that
My tops are as follows EVH tube amp, Axe Fx, Neural, Fender. In the mix EVH and Axe Fx are realy close. Great comparison video again.
Yeah the TMP EVH sounded more like a super scooped mesa. Weird.
You should test some other amps to see if a lot of them are inaccurate or it's just that one.
All of these comparison videos have been created using the same method. They are sending the amp models into the same 3rd party IR and this is a totally valid test.
We (Fender) have already stated that (for now) this will yield less authentic results than using our factory IRs. We are already working on (and were long before these videos were posted) implementing more capabilities into our 3rd party IR block that will enable the desired results. This will also have a positive outcome when using external IRs and/or a SS power amp driving a real cabinet.
Today (12/3) is literally the 2nd month post-launch for TM Pro. We have a long roadmap of updates planned that include not only new features and models but also tweaks to current features that were in the product on launch day.
We (Fender) really appreciate the engagement and feedback we’ve gotten thus far and are excited to implement some of the suggestions. The best part about all products like this is the ability for continuous improvement that enhances the playing experience on all platforms. We’re excited to have you all be a part of that process.
Jason S. - Product Director, Fender Amps
I need to get an amp wall like yours John. Not enough space in my apartment tho haha
The thing that I notice in the real amp is that there is a seperation of notes when single string notes are played into chords. Listen to 11:16 and you can hear there is a better seperation of the notes, whereas the modelers sound like everything becomes a compressed mush.
in the mix of the song, I walked around the room and I 100% couldn't tell you one from the other. Isolated on the other hand, I could REALLY tell a difference
Sounds so good. Your riffs and mixes are just perfect. Every damn time. I don't know how you do it, but your mix master is to my ears every time just on another level. Any thoughts on a video tutorial on your low end for bass and your drum process? Great work John as always!
As for the video, I thought the Fender Tone Master Pro sounded interesting.
I listened to your comparisons and had my mind made up before I heard you give your opinions, and we totally agree!
Your comparison as always is excellent. I have not liked the EVH models in any of the other Tone Master Pro demo videos that I have watched so it's definitely an opportunity for Fender to improve . I have a 50W Stealth and it has at least as much gain as your EL34 red channel..
its crazy because in the mix i prefered the Fender. But the isolated tracks were so obvious. I know they will drop more amps soon so lets see if they give a version that is what you have. I'd love to see you shoot it out again. Nice video!!!
I thought the Fender sounded better in the mix as well. Once you take out the track though the Fender was the only one I didn't like. It sounded muffled even with the highs cranked. The other three sounded great.
You do a good job. I enjoy watching your posts. I am glad Max Gutnick reached out to you and is taking steps to give you the experience you want with the TMP. You are comparing EL34 tubes to 6L6 tubes. Of course they are going to sound different. Plus the other modelers don't have the EVH Stealth amp. There are 6,000 IR's to choose from, different mic placements, mics, compression etc. You can easily dial in preferred sounds as I have done on my own TMP. My TMP sounds great with headphones or FRFR cabs. There are hundreds of ways to tailor the sound. The TMP does not suck. You take a preset and customize it to your preference. In your review of the TMP you praised many of the amp models it had and many of the features. I use the TMP every day. I have other modeler units and the TMP is by far the most versatile and easy to dial in great tones. A side by side comparison is not very good if the amps are not the same. EL34 tubes sound very different from 6L6 tubes. There are hundreds of variations in mic placement and mics. Plus the updates are coming at Xmas. Fender did not spend 3 months modeling the EVH amp to make it sound bad. I use the tools the TMP provides to tailor my sound. I never use the presets as is. The presets are a starting point, not the end point. I have a TMP. I have a Stealth EVH, you do not. I have a TMP that I have customized the presets on. It sounds great. All my customized presets sound great. I have many tube amps so I know what a tube amp sounds like. My tube amps range from a hand-made 20 watt '64 Custom Deluxe Reverb to a Mesa Boogie Triple Crown 100 watt head with a vertical 2x12 Rectifier cab. I have many modelers and I know what they sound like. The under-rated flagship Boss GT-1000 is a great unit. I use it for bass and guitar. When it first came out there was nothing for bass players on it. The Xmas updates for the TMP will include something for bass players. The You can be sure Fender knows all about your comments, and will respond with the Xmas updates to satisfy you and any followers who may have been led astray.
I liked the video (and like it that you got a QC back for comparisons)! One thing I do wish you could have done before ending this was to try and tweak the 5150 TMP model to see how close you could get it with tweaking it with EQ, etc or just the parameters to try and get it closer to your amp. With it being two different models perhaps their model does sound darker or something? Would have liked to hear the comparison after some tweaking was applied just to see how it reacted. Thanks!
I definitely did a lot of tweaking
@@SonicDriveStudio Ah, gotcha. I thought you had said that all knobs were set at noon. Well, that blows that theory. lol
For me none of them are exactly like the real EVH 5150. But the closest would be Quad Cortex, then Axe FX, and the last one would be Tone Master Pro.
The Axe FX is almost identical to the amp. All you need to do is add a post EQ with a 1-2db low and high shelf boost, and it will match and be "3D" like the amp.
Your videos are excellent. Thank you again for a great comparison, I don't like the EL34 5150 but regardless, the Fractal and Quad Coretex are not far off, lack some air (high harmonics) and low impact (softened transients) but there are many variables, some could tweaking possibly get even closer. In a mix unlikely anyone would know the difference.
What is it about the EL34 that you don't like? I think it sounds ferocious!
The EL34 is my favorite of the EVH amps by a pretty fair margin. Guess I'm just surprised when people hate on it because I've had just about everything and that bad boy stands out as a top 10 amp. Maybe top 5 for high gain for me.
@@SonicDriveStudio I do really like some 50w Marshall JMP Mk2 style amps, I find the EVH and Suhr equivalents both more raw/shouty in mids character and similar situation with Mesa amps trying for a Marshall tone like Deuce Stiletto. For example Marshall SV20H has great flutey juicy mids closer to the old JMPs, that's a nice sounding EL34 amp even if not a true plexi circuit.
@@SonicDriveStudio - I compared the 50w 6L6 & EL34 versions, and ended with the 6L6. Its just 'cleaner and punchy', and the EL34 is more 'hairy and thicker'.
the neural has a space width that will sit in a mix better
Owned the 5153 el34 50 watt since it came out. I've never loved it even after upgraded some components and retubing, but you're clips always make it shine. I'm no snob by any means, but the actual head really does sounds more '3d' and has a very crisp and bright top end the other lacked
Your (25 year old) observations are correct. My (66 year old) observations are also correct. I listened with studio headphones and in some cases I preferred the TMP sound and sometimes Fractal but never QC. I have a TMP. I listen to it with studio headphones and FRFR cabs, two Fender FR-12 cabs for that stereo Wall of Sound. I can see why my buddy raves about the Fractal and the 99.99% accuracy. Van Halen himself said, "If it sounds good, it is good." Whether in a mix or isolated I like the TMP just fine. I have tinnitus and the QC is like nails on a blackboard. The Fractal is crisp, but the TMP is more musical to my ears. Pleasant like a tube amp that you can listen to for hours. That is the point. I can listen to the TMP for hours, but not with the others, whether in a mix but especially isolated.
Oh yes please! Also it would great to feature the better plugins as well.
Damn. Compared to the Axe FX and the Quad Cortex, the Tonemaster kinda sounds like and old Line 6 Pod back when you had to hard cut the highs to control the fizz. Thats pretty disappointing.
Great comparision video. I agree with you in every detail. I also own EVH 5153 100w i QC and I think (for now) there is still something missing in that neural sound - Although neuraldsp sounds best for me
I thought you returned your QC. Nice to see you're still using it.
Got a good deal on one because I had fomo
The axe fx and cortex sounded like the actual amp. On the fender modeler, it almost sounded like the mic placement feature was off or something in the IR section.
Like usual imo, real amps are more open and less harsh in some frequencies..the fractal sounded the closest then the qc and tge fender really was a disappointment, very boxy sounding.. i am a fractal user and love it but real amps are just a step above..thanks as always for the videos.
Great video, if you ever run out of content you could always do the same shootouts with the amps you own compared to the digital platforms. As always great job
There's no lie, people. FX AXE3 is supreme; QC is 2nd; and Fender TMP is the last. However, Fender is not even close...it can't even compete. I'm so glad I bought my FM9 a few months ago. Now, Fractal just updated the new Cygnus X-3 and it sounds even a lot more like a REAL amp than before. For all Live player, there's no more "Gap" between all Presets and Scenes (FYI). Everything are seamless. Lol. Thanks to Fractal and Thanks comparing these system. It just reminds me that I'm glad I bought Fractal.
Yeah I own a Stealth 100 and cab as well as the Tone Master Pro. You have to put way more time into getting the tone right than the way you set it up. Split cabs, 121 and a 57 mic and use their IR’s which work way better that OH IR’s currently. If the update fixes the user IR’s issue than
Disregard. Also you stated issues with phasing which I haven’t dealt with in split cabs. But I send both cabs out on a stereo channel to my Console. If their where any I could easily fix them in my DAW since I do live mic’s of cabs as well, so I’m used to this issue.
Fender has admitted that there is indeed something wrong with the model
I didn't listen on my studio monitors/treated room, I was in my bedroom on my not very fancy tv. I'm a long time audio engineer.
I thought the modelers all sounded weird. Both amps sounded GREAT with nothing weird about them at all. Actually I was surprised, on my tv I liked the lunchbox amp the best. But every one of the models had something about it that sounded thin or cold or whatever. Modelers are just like that, you did a fine job in capturing them truthfully.
FWIW I'm not anti modelers at all. I have a Helix LT, Helix Native and own a ton of other amp sim plugins. I even sometimes prefer Marshall JMP/Plexi models to my own actual 1974 JMP haha. Sometimes a modeler is just easier to play.
Also something else worth noting. I noticed afterwards that my tv was on cinema mode for its sound. So there was some weird dynamics being applied to the video. What I found interesting was, the real amps didn't trigger the tv's dynamics processing while the modelers all had the tv struggling to make sense of its input signal, causing the volume to jump around. But not the hardware amps.
What is blowing my mind is the new Friedman preamp. It's not 5150ish but it got me ignoring all of my modelers. Channel 2 on it sounds sort of like the blue channel on my 5153 stealth except more 80ish.
The Axe FX III was the closest to the original with the quad cortex coming in a close 2nd. They were both both very close to the original. Fender has some work to do on the tonemaster as there was a noticeable difference. I'm sure they will fix it with upcoming patches though.
Thank you for putting this video together with so much thought.
Did you remember to switch the tubes from EL34 to 6L6 in the Fractal? Just curious. I believe the default is the EL34.
The QC model has some extra upper mid "push" to it and "bass cut" carved out so you're not hearing the low end rumble ... . Really "pops" nicely... Kind of "mix ready"
Great comparison, it would be great if Mercuriall 6160 was also included.
On RUclips with the algorithms for sound, it's hard to hear the differences.
I'm an old school guy and for decades nothing could replace my old Marshall 1987 50 lead and pedals, until i plugged straight into a Mesa Mark V 25. Hell in a lunchbox. It made me laugh and rethink my tone within the first 5 minutes of playing it.
The only digital device that has that response from me through cabs is the Axe FX 3. It has a "rudeness" to the sound that the others don't get, at least in my ears. The difference between hitting the strings hard and really hard doesn't really equate for me on the Tone Master. That chug is cold and calculate whereas the Axe FX just makes you smile and want to stomp the stage.
Nice job here! I thought the models all sounded pretty good. It seemed to me the Fender Tone Pro is EQ'd and somewhat lifeless for lack of a better term. Almost like they were trying to mask higher frequencies or sounding too digital. One thing that cannot be captured on video/audio is the players response, how does it "feel" in comparison to the real analog tube amps. That and how a modeler reacts to guitar volume roll off decide it for me 9 times outta 10. I'd be interested in a comparison video using captures of your 5150 III El-34 with captures from the modelers. I have plenty of tube amps/cabs and love them all but I do own a Quad Cortex as well as amp plugins from UAD and Neural. I embrace the tech and man it has gotten REALLY good the last few years. The captures are getting really hard to distinguish from real or capture. The downside for me is "selection overload" way too many options to pick an choose from. I find it better to start from scratch or edit a preset that is close to what you're looking for. I do think with tweaking you can get the tone almost exact if don't looks so much at knobs/amp settings.
In the Mix The Stealth sounded best to me !! Is it an exact replica maybe not ! Do I care , no !! As long as it sounds good to my ears ! Maybe I have a bad ears 🤷🏻♂️ still gonna buy the TMP !!
love the riffs you come up with!
Wow, awesome undertaking and job. Thanks!
As soon as I heard the Fender in this video and saw you had the Presence and Highs cranked I knew it was disappointing. Usually when these sims sound a little off the usual response is to EQ the problem frequencies out or back in. Glad to see you showed that you tried to dial up the high end, but it still just missed the mark there.
I think it's pretty clear that amp captures are the future as opposed to digitally recreated amps like the Helix and Fender Tone Master. I'm not saying either of those sound bad, but they just don't quite hit the mark when stuff like the Kemper and Quad Cortex sound almost identical to the real deal amps.
Fractal Sounds as close to the 5150 amp. But....prefer QC over all. It has it has its own personalty and has that dark midrange heard on the VH III CD. China Town Vibe. Tone Pro lagging.
Personally I thought the Quad Cortex sounded fatter, and am a Kemper user so there is no bias there.
Yeah, the real 50w amp is clear winner. Listened through AKG studio headphones and then Genelec studio monitors. Nice comparison!
You have to compare the same amp and exact same model equivalents for a proper comparison… with the same “stock” power tubes
They all sounded great, except the Fender. Thank you for calling that out. Also, your playing! So good!
I hope Fender works overtime on this issue and gets the updates out ASAP. I have a TMP so I am an interested party. I have been quite happy with how I have been able to use and customize the presets. I believe in Fender and the TMP. However, this test makes the TMP EVH preset look bad. How many updates has the Fractal had or did the Fractal sound this good out of the gate. Would it have been more fair to give Fender one update before the test. The QC has had updates too. But the Fractal is the 99.99% standard to be judged by. I have a buddy who is a Fractal wizard and he says that is the one to beat. I don't need a Fractal. The TMP can work well enough for me. I am happy with the headphone sound and the FRFR cab sound. Happy with playing solo or in a mix in a band. However, the price demands updates. I expect excellence from Fender. If you want to play in the big leagues, you need big league performance. Max, you've done the market research, now get to work.
I thought the stealth was a little bit different and that could explain why the model within the fender unit would sound differently I mean I don't think it's supposed to sound like the 5153 EL 34. I've never played the two back to back at the same time so if I'm wrong hey I'd be glad to know it but that's my guess is to why they would sound so different
UPDATE: We've now heard other evidence of the red channel not sounding exactly like the 5150IIIs...based on that, it does appear to be a bug more so than the speaker impedance curve. It's absolutely critical that it's as perfect a replication of the actual channel as possible. That's the standard we've set for TMP, so we'll take a look and get it sorted asap. Thanks Jon, and thanks everyone!
Awesome! Thanks for the update!
Good on you, Max. This is definitely the right way to handle this, and builds goodwill among your potential customer base. Well done!
Thanks Max. I love my TMP. Sounds great thru studio headphones. Looking forward to the updates. I ordered two FR 12 cabs for January 2024 for that stereo Wall Of Sound. Hopefully that hiss thing is EQ'd out. I have a Supersonic 22 head with Mesa Boogie Rectifier cab that sounds great. Also, a Mesa Boogie Triple Crown Head with 2x12 Vertical Rectifier cab. And the handwired '64 Custom Deluxe Reverb. I love ducking delay as on the Boss DD-200. I like the X-Metal sound on the Boss OD-200. If you can get more than 1 minute on the looper, maybe 10 minutes, and have it two track like on the Boss RC-500. I love my Fender Ultra Luxe HSS Floyd Rose Strat with noiseless pickups and stainless steel frets. I love my Player Precision bass. Can you incorporate something like a Beat Buddy into the TMP? Love Fender. Leo said, Form follows function.
If I just compare the sounds, the AXE FX was very close to the amps, the Quat Cortex was different in a good way and has a bit more clarity and sparkling in the tones, the Tone Master Pro is darker and has not the clarity in the tones and sounds like a different amp. But it's also a matter of taste and what sounds your looking for. 😊🤘
First and foremost, GREAT JOB!
I am listening with totally flat Slate VSX Cans. I’m laughing because out of all of the modelers you would think that the “LICENSED EVH” version from Fender would be exact when actually it was not even close to being remotely the same. The closest one here was without question the Quad Cortex. The Fractal was my second choice but came in a little too hot and bright. If anyone buys the Tonemaster for the EVH side alone, you just proved it’s not going to sound but if anything darker and constricted compared to the rest of the candidates in this shootout. I own both Fractal and Neural platforms and prefer Neural.
I thought the tonemaster sounded very good but very different, but then again it's modeling a different amp so who knows. Peavy 5150 versions all sound extremely different from one another and the same goes for different models.
I think the ToneX Pedal & Amplitube 5 plugin (through the right gear), offers the best tones for the price.
Featuring those in the next episode
I didn't expect how awesome the real amp sounded. Axe Fx III was so close to (or even better than) a real amp throughout many comparison videos and clips, but the EVH 5150 EL34 slayed it this time.
TMP's 5150 is a sheer joke considering its price. Even budget modelers and free amp sim plugins can do much better.
I honestly couldn't tell the difference in or out between EVH and Axe FX, tiny difference with the QC. But the Fender was way off, artifacts and buzz too. THen I read, that Fender acknowledges it's got issues. Yep And of course, you can adjust that feel on the Axe FX.
You didn’t use the stealth to compare…..
They all sound great and the same for the most part with very subtle differences, most people would never notice. If you did a blind test everyone would be wrong except for a few lucky guesses. Especially in the mix. I think to do a true comparison you need to take out the drums and bass. Just straight guitar into an FRFR. To me Fender wins just for the easy UI. My guess is all the big names will be coming out with better units very shortly. Everyone looking for a better UI.
I would very much like to see the Tone X included in the next batch. =)
With fresh ears, but headphones. I felt like the fender tonemaster was the most different out of all of them. And the amp itself was the best sounding. Of course. But in a live show for the player and the crowd, I bet it doesnt really matter if its loud for both of them. Fender tonemaster sounded like it was lacking in all frequencies. Dissapointing from fender. Edit: You actually said the same thing. Maybe they will redo it in a patch update?
The tone master sounds the least like the amp or the other modelers. It has quite a bit more going on in the low end that makes it muddy
Fractal is the best, QC could be nice if it wasn’t adding high pitch noises (7-10k) for pretty everything high gain😂
Fender needs to work on it more.
To be fair. The stealth is darker than the others
🍿Waiting for the official representatives to chime in.
Fractal - Damn near identical. Really clear across lows, mids and highs.
QC - Very close, but more cardboardy midrange and a little less lows and highs.
Fender - Awful. Flat, dark and fuzzy sounding. Yeesh.
I have a QC, but dang the Fractal is more convincing!
All sounded pretty decent and close to the original. I don't think I will ever have to pay for excess baggage again... And any of them will cost the same as your favorite 5150, ENGL ou Mesa 100w head. Even if you buy a 170w PoweStage. My 2 cents: buy your favorite amp, leave it in your house, and gig with the Fractal, Quad Cortex, Kemper or Tone Master Pro.
Having both is the best of both worlds ;)
The Fender Tone Pro sounds more like a Rockerverb than 5150. Sound very Root-like
They all sound really good