That very toughness would be why important documents were written on vellum in the first place. One would want that deed or other record to survive handling, storage and use, in rough conditions. Even the best conditions would not be as gentle on documents as more modern paper based offices.
Lindybeige I have an awesome recommendation, People should make comedy films based on historical inaccuracies portrayed by movies. And this would be such a hysterical part :P
I would argue that there is more than a very fine line between total realism and getting things spectacularly wrong. Everything one spots as wrong reminds one that one is watching a film, and that is to a film's detriment.
Which is why I made it the title deeds to the throne and castle - the stuff of vellum. In the films, though, they sometimes refer to it verbally as vellum, and the prop has been made to look like vellum.
One thing that would make a suitable replacement for taunting the hero: moisture! Vellum (and parchment in general) is destroyed when it gets wet, reverting to rawhide, so the villain needs only to pour his goblet of wine over it to pretty much permanently ruin it.
+Jonathan Hughes Why waste that perfectly good wine when he can put a copious amount of spit on it? Jokes aside, wouldn't scorching it make it illegible and thus you can't use it as a claim anymore?
assuming it's a royal document, you might want to preserve it by putting some sort of oil to prevent moisture. the last thing you want is for the document to be ruined in a hot humid day.
@Bankstercide It would have to be very dense and fine weave cloth to work, which before machines made it very expensive, and it would soak up the ink in an unhelpful manner, and leather is stronger/longer lasting.
Vellum is very durable stuff. For that reason, it was used for millennia for making books/scrolls, books were very expensive and were expected to last. In fact, many of them are still in existence today, however pre printing press examples are quite rare because most were recycled into binding material (covers) for new printed books. Vellum continued to be used after but was gradually replaced by parchment, and finally pulp paper in the mid 19th century. Fun fact: Vellum became the material of choice for particularly important documents due to it’s ability to last through the centuries, for example, the US Constitution and Bill of Rights were both written on vellum. 200+ years later, the vellum is actually in better condition than the ink.
I can semi-explain the crackling on burning parchment / card, and that is mostly ink, wax and oils used to preserve the article. If you write something down with most older inks, dyes or paints, water could damage it very easily, so wax or oil would then be gently rubbed in once the writing / painting (to avoid smudging) this would help prevent dampness causing ink to run, paint to become wet again and messes that causes. Burning oils or impure wax and / or ink crackles and spatters.
Vellum, good stuff for documents. nowadays we use a artificial version. Things like blueprints, Technical drawings things that people would pay good money to keep from getting destroyed. Though I doubt the artificial version is as hardy as the old leather they used way back when. Still, you ply a good dose of rational analysis and logic. And your videos are quite worth the watch. Kudos man.
I imagine it'd simply be easier if the villain just took the deed and hid it while telling the hero to take his complaints to my nearest men-at-arms (which I presume I have more of than him, otherwise he wouldn't try to be using a piece of Vellum to get me to submit) whilst I install his brother or some more easily manipulated relative to the throne.
you're going on about not being able to tear it, not even mentioning how ripping it up surely wouldn't be important, surely everyone is still aware that they are the true heir etc.! In game of thrones this annoyed me so much. All the king's guards are like "oh the page is gone now, it never existed!" like some sort of medievalesque memory hole
+Ben Nutley this kinda anoyed me too at first but then you think that most of the lower class '''pesents'' didn't really know anything about what was going on around the noble lords. and asuming youre refeering to the scene with cercei and ned stark if you were a highborn or a kingsguard in that room would you really try to opose cercei lannister who has all 100 citywatch men on her side plus the rest of the kingsguard
+alkesh gaming The issue isn't the ignorance of the peasants, but the guardsmen. Knowing who Ned was, how close he was to the king, and how honorable he was, they completely disregard the king's sealed letter, and arrest him for the murder of the king, who was in his room, on his deathbed, just cause the queen ripped it up? Completely stupid, as no one would ever do that. The king even wanted to be alone with Ned, so they couldn't suspect him for killing the king. It was even more strange when some of the king's men that were watching him, followed Ned in full belief, only to turn around and arrest him all cause of a torn document. It was just a bit of lazy writing, is all. Plus, if it wasn't for that, we wouldn't have an entertaining book series/show, regardless of some weak elements!
Love your video, but vellum is *not* leather, as it's not tanned. It's rawhide that has been stretched, scraped, and ponced (treated with powdered pumice & calcium worked into it). I'm an amateur parchmenter, and make parchment from my sheep & goats, and the occasional deerskin I get from hunting season. :) Haven't gotten hold of a calf hide for true vellum, just yet. :)
we pearched some "vellum" for wedding invitations and they were plastic opake sheets, though not easy to rip and some what sturdy as most plastics are they were indeed not leather, nor were they easy to write upon which i did try. guess if i had a quill and some ink jars it might of worked but ehhh guesss the moderstuff is just for decoration.
It was a common practice to reuse vellum by scraping off the old writing. Anything that essentially uses sandpaper as an eraser is going to be tough stuff. What i'm curious about was why no one regularly used cloth as a writing surface - was leather so much cheaper than cloth?
A villain always comes prepared, he has a servant take a pin to the vellum, making thousands of tiny holes in it, and cutting almost through all of it, so it becomes possible to rip. Then it's dipped in multiple flammable substances, to make it burn nicely. As to the crackling... Eh, I've got nothing.
Actually it is still called sandpaper, google "sandpaper for sale", you'll find a huge number of results. You can still buy lead pencils, but we haven't used lead for decades. Coca cola no longer contains coca leaf but we still use the name.
TU As a self respecting villian I would hire a proficient butler who conveniently cuts the vellum so that it still looks good, but can be easily torn apart. If I can afford it, I would also hire an alchmist to prepare the vellum so that it burns with crackling yellow flames. On second thought. i would probably hire the alchmeisrt to make porcelain to sell it, so that I grow rich enough to maintain the stolen castle. take care silk ;-))
they should make a movie that makes fun of all the inaccuracies depicted in modern movies/games about medieval times like, for instance, a dude trying to go into battle with two heavily oversized battleaxes and then just getting shot by an arrow or pierced by a spear or, like you said, the villain trying to tear apart a piece of vellum
You know, I can't actually think of any film I've seen where that's happened. Much like I haven't read or seen a whodunnit where the butler did it. Did you mean "cardwood", by the way? Far be it for me to pick, but don't you mean cardboard?
I know this is tremendously late but here is my contribution. In the army we were thought to throw knives. Scenario was that you killed one guard and another one saw you (or the first one turned around) and you throw a knife at him to give yourself time to get to him and try to kill him. It was a last resort move, it may have killed the guard but you had to proceed as if it wouldn't. Hope this clears things a bit.
And since so many movies follow spectacularly wrong with spectacularly wrong incessantly throughout the movie it gets bloody jarring. I cringe every time someone fires a musket then bites the next cartridge, pours the charge and spits the ball down the bore or just pours powder directly from a horn down the bore. In fact, I spend a lot of time cringing at spectacularly wrong stuff in movies.
@@bernardi5919 lye isn't that bad if you neutralize it within a minute but that will make it hot enough to get burns if you put aluminum foil around the vellum it'll be very dramatic
Wouldn't it be much better to have a fireplace and throw the entire piece of vellum in there. Or maybe cut it with a sharp dagger? I don't know how easily it cuts though.
+DaReaperZ I wouldn't doubt that you could probably cut through it with a dagger, and just throwing the vellum into the fireplace would scorch it, which would work since it's just black now, you can't see anything written upon it. Or just get it wet.
One that always annoys me is the sound effect of a pump-action shotgun being racked when a character clearly has a traditional break-action weapon. Arrrgh.
This whole thing of tearing up your expensive vellum seems a bit odd. You could just carefully scrape off the undesired parts and rewrite the document to your favour, assuming you were capable of that. Seems much more favourable than outright destroying the document. And as far as I know, forgery was not that uncommon of a practice in the middle ages. And I'm terribly sorry about my slightly wonky English.
Your English is great, and totally agreed here. Though if I were trying to dramatically destroy a castle deed, I'd probably chuck it in the hearth rather than pausing my monologue.
Aye, but look at the quality of our modern magazines... oh, it got a bit wet, let me just wipe it off with... oh, the wet bit rolled up into a grey-brown smush. But look at this Polaroid photograph... from decades ago. Wait... lamination! That's it... oh, it wouldn't roll so you folded it and it snapped?
@deathsminion25 Or just go over to the huge blazing fire already burning in the fireplace because it's Europe and central heating hasn't been invented yet.
That very toughness would be why important documents were written on vellum in the first place. One would want that deed or other record to survive handling, storage and use, in rough conditions. Even the best conditions would not be as gentle on documents as more modern paper based offices.
especially in a time before filing cabinets were invented
Lindybeige I have an awesome recommendation, People should make comedy films based on historical inaccuracies portrayed by movies. And this would be such a hysterical part :P
+Darkninja282 It does sound like a rather Monty Python-esque scene doesn't it?
YESSSSSS :P
Like, "nobody expects the Spanish inquisition!"
Something pythonesque eh
***** Don't forget the back scabbard! Or the mail coif without padding!
I would argue that there is more than a very fine line between total realism and getting things spectacularly wrong. Everything one spots as wrong reminds one that one is watching a film, and that is to a film's detriment.
Agreed! What one should aim for when creating a narrative work is verisimilitude.
That one dislike was probably the stereotypical villain. :>
twirling his moustache and guffawing raucously.
AwesomeVindicator
To quote Peter Griffin, "I don't know what seven of those words were".
Scott J Lynch 2 two villains
Tichomír Dunlop doubled again
Which is why I made it the title deeds to the throne and castle - the stuff of vellum. In the films, though, they sometimes refer to it verbally as vellum, and the prop has been made to look like vellum.
One thing that would make a suitable replacement for taunting the hero: moisture!
Vellum (and parchment in general) is destroyed when it gets wet, reverting to rawhide, so the villain needs only to pour his goblet of wine over it to pretty much permanently ruin it.
+Jonathan Hughes Why waste that perfectly good wine when he can put a copious amount of spit on it?
Jokes aside, wouldn't scorching it make it illegible and thus you can't use it as a claim anymore?
Farrem Shamist Scorching and spitting aren't as dramatic as wine (and it would take a lot of spit).
Jonathan Hughes The spitting would definitely show more of a disrespect towards the object.
+Jonathan Hughes He could dramatically pour the wine on the vellum.
assuming it's a royal document, you might want to preserve it by putting some sort of oil to prevent moisture.
the last thing you want is for the document to be ruined in a hot humid day.
@Bankstercide It would have to be very dense and fine weave cloth to work, which before machines made it very expensive, and it would soak up the ink in an unhelpful manner, and leather is stronger/longer lasting.
this would be a funny idea for a film
@deathsminion25 Stab the hero in the jugular, then put the vellum into the middle of a large blazing fire.
Stone tablets are pretty tough, as long as you don't drop them.
As they did in later periods?
UK has really strange movies
Vellum is very durable stuff. For that reason, it was used for millennia for making books/scrolls, books were very expensive and were expected to last. In fact, many of them are still in existence today, however pre printing press examples are quite rare because most were recycled into binding material (covers) for new printed books. Vellum continued to be used after but was gradually replaced by parchment, and finally pulp paper in the mid 19th century.
Fun fact: Vellum became the material of choice for particularly important documents due to it’s ability to last through the centuries, for example, the US Constitution and Bill of Rights were both written on vellum. 200+ years later, the vellum is actually in better condition than the ink.
I have literally never once seen a scene such as that which you have described
+Really Messed Up People Realy? I want to ensure you that I heve seen this scene many times.
Really Messed Up People I don't remember seeing it but I recognize the scene description.
It happens in season one of game of thrones
@deathsminion25 If you have an ocean handy, use that. Or cut it up and feed it to the pigs.
I can semi-explain the crackling on burning parchment / card, and that is mostly ink, wax and oils used to preserve the article. If you write something down with most older inks, dyes or paints, water could damage it very easily, so wax or oil would then be gently rubbed in once the writing / painting (to avoid smudging) this would help prevent dampness causing ink to run, paint to become wet again and messes that causes. Burning oils or impure wax and / or ink crackles and spatters.
This man never ages!
Vellum, good stuff for documents.
nowadays we use a artificial version. Things like blueprints, Technical drawings things that people would pay good money to keep from getting destroyed. Though I doubt the artificial version is as hardy as the old leather they used way back when. Still, you ply a good dose of rational analysis and logic. And your videos are quite worth the watch.
Kudos man.
Sounds like an episode for Galavant, should give Skallagrim a call.
That ripping sound was surprisingly accurate
I imagine it'd simply be easier if the villain just took the deed and hid it while telling the hero to take his complaints to my nearest men-at-arms (which I presume I have more of than him, otherwise he wouldn't try to be using a piece of Vellum to get me to submit) whilst I install his brother or some more easily manipulated relative to the throne.
you're going on about not being able to tear it, not even mentioning how ripping it up surely wouldn't be important, surely everyone is still aware that they are the true heir etc.! In game of thrones this annoyed me so much. All the king's guards are like "oh the page is gone now, it never existed!" like some sort of medievalesque memory hole
+Ben Nutley this kinda anoyed me too at first but then you think that most of the lower class '''pesents'' didn't really know anything about what was going on around the noble lords. and asuming youre refeering to the scene with cercei and ned stark if you were a highborn or a kingsguard in that room would you really try to opose cercei lannister who has all 100 citywatch men on her side plus the rest of the kingsguard
+alkesh gaming The issue isn't the ignorance of the peasants, but the guardsmen. Knowing who Ned was, how close he was to the king, and how honorable he was, they completely disregard the king's sealed letter, and arrest him for the murder of the king, who was in his room, on his deathbed, just cause the queen ripped it up? Completely stupid, as no one would ever do that. The king even wanted to be alone with Ned, so they couldn't suspect him for killing the king. It was even more strange when some of the king's men that were watching him, followed Ned in full belief, only to turn around and arrest him all cause of a torn document. It was just a bit of lazy writing, is all. Plus, if it wasn't for that, we wouldn't have an entertaining book series/show, regardless of some weak elements!
I think that's a good point. While it's lazy writing it's pretty excusable given that its results were necessary for a great series.
Love your video, but vellum is *not* leather, as it's not tanned. It's rawhide that has been stretched, scraped, and ponced (treated with powdered pumice & calcium worked into it). I'm an amateur parchmenter, and make parchment from my sheep & goats, and the occasional deerskin I get from hunting season. :) Haven't gotten hold of a calf hide for true vellum, just yet. :)
we pearched some "vellum" for wedding invitations and they were plastic opake sheets, though not easy to rip and some what sturdy as most plastics are they were indeed not leather, nor were they easy to write upon which i did try. guess if i had a quill and some ink jars it might of worked but ehhh guesss the moderstuff is just for decoration.
I was not aware of that. Good insight.
It was a common practice to reuse vellum by scraping off the old writing. Anything that essentially uses sandpaper as an eraser is going to be tough stuff.
What i'm curious about was why no one regularly used cloth as a writing surface - was leather so much cheaper than cloth?
That one dislike a Hollywood prop maker!
This is why a true villain should always carry scissors!
Would have to be some very good scissors though.
That villain laugh though!
A villain always comes prepared, he has a servant take a pin to the vellum, making thousands of tiny holes in it, and cutting almost through all of it, so it becomes possible to rip. Then it's dipped in multiple flammable substances, to make it burn nicely. As to the crackling... Eh, I've got nothing.
How would the ink deal with water?
@Gilmaris I think he said "Like a piece of card *would*. Card, as in thick card paper.
Does it also bother you when vellum or parchment in fantasy games/books/movies is referred to as a paper?
Did they even have paper back then? Or anything like paper? I know Chinese had it for ages, but they didn't have glass.
Another cherished belief shattered by Lloyd. What a cruel man he is.
I'm enjoying my new hobby; spotting obscure references in LB's videos. This time, it's Dougal and the Blue Cat (0:31)
I can't think of a single film or TV series where I've seen this oO Is it a strawfilm? :p
Vellum: The new way to show the Worf Effect
Actually it is still called sandpaper, google "sandpaper for sale", you'll find a huge number of results. You can still buy lead pencils, but we haven't used lead for decades. Coca cola no longer contains coca leaf but we still use the name.
TU
As a self respecting villian I would hire a proficient butler who conveniently cuts the vellum so that it still looks good, but can be easily torn apart.
If I can afford it, I would also hire an alchmist to prepare the vellum so that it burns with crackling yellow flames.
On second thought. i would probably hire the alchmeisrt to make porcelain to sell it, so that I grow rich enough to maintain the stolen castle.
take care
silk
;-))
i bet you get much comments Lioyd, and i feel many better for knowing the difference,
thank you
We used something we called vellum when I was a printer. It obviously wasn't the same stuff though.
How about historical parchment? That is what i always thought the villains were using
Ok that about medival vellum. But what in case of acient?
+Maciej D Oh, I stoped video before ending screen about Egipt. But Grece or Rome?
You didn't even mention the reason you can't tear/burn vellum. It's made from calf skin; it's essentially leather used as paper.
they should make a movie that makes fun of all the inaccuracies depicted in modern movies/games about medieval times
like, for instance, a dude trying to go into battle with two heavily oversized battleaxes and then just getting shot by an arrow or pierced by a spear
or, like you said, the villain trying to tear apart a piece of vellum
You know, I can't actually think of any film I've seen where that's happened. Much like I haven't read or seen a whodunnit where the butler did it.
Did you mean "cardwood", by the way? Far be it for me to pick, but don't you mean cardboard?
Cersei Lannister perfected the art of tearing up vellum (I know they say paper, but come on, Westeros is a eurocentric medieval society)
Eurocentric?
European? Lemon cakes.
garouHH you do know how importation works?
+KDanielsS It might be papyrus-like paper, which did exist (albeit not very commonly) during the Medieval period.
Devil's Advocate Yes, and I also know that in medieval times it wasn't done with any goods more perishable than spices.
If it's scorched, you can't read it anymore, so technically the goal is accomplished
I know this is tremendously late but here is my contribution. In the army we were thought to throw knives. Scenario was that you killed one guard and another one saw you (or the first one turned around) and you throw a knife at him to give yourself time to get to him and try to kill him. It was a last resort move, it may have killed the guard but you had to proceed as if it wouldn't. Hope this clears things a bit.
i think this is the wrong video for your comment. i assume you wanted to respond to his throwing knife video.
"I will crush you, like... Like this quantuum singularity!"
The comment a the end also applies if you're Romans and Greeks (unless you're from Pergamum.)
@Varrik and then show the villan atempt burn it. would make a good take off
All UK parliamentary laws are still written on Vellum to this day.
They should implement that villain embarrassment upon finding that-oneself is incapable of ripping a vellum in a comedy.
And since so many movies follow spectacularly wrong with spectacularly wrong incessantly throughout the movie it gets bloody jarring.
I cringe every time someone fires a musket then bites the next cartridge, pours the charge and spits the ball down the bore or just pours powder directly from a horn down the bore.
In fact, I spend a lot of time cringing at spectacularly wrong stuff in movies.
Maybe the villain could use a sword or knife? Like unshealth a couple of inches of his sword then cut the vellum with it?
+portadorde nanismo
You destroy the vellum with little effort in order to taunt the hero. Using your sword would miss the point.
why not hire the alchemist to make "green gold" or "pure green" as it is also called?
I thought of this video while watching Game of Thrones.
Thats why legislation remains written on vellum in HOP.
What about lye?
not very dramatic, I'm afraid, to use lye to break vellum.
@@bernardi5919 lye isn't that bad if you neutralize it within a minute but that will make it hot enough to get burns if you put aluminum foil around the vellum it'll be very dramatic
why am I writting a script now and this being a majour stress relieving scene, also my Hero is nearly naked and set to be played by Brad Pitt...
Wouldn't it be much better to have a fireplace and throw the entire piece of vellum in there. Or maybe cut it with a sharp dagger? I don't know how easily it cuts though.
+DaReaperZ I wouldn't doubt that you could probably cut through it with a dagger, and just throwing the vellum into the fireplace would scorch it, which would work since it's just black now, you can't see anything written upon it.
Or just get it wet.
Perhaps they used paper. Europeans had it from the 12th C onwards.
Eeeeh I'm so evil.
never saw that in a movie tbh
so, what's the problem? the villain is just strong, no big deal...
Interesting.
Also wouldent be very smart to have your incredibly valuble dicuments transcribed on something as vaunrable as paper.
Lloyd, why do you hate Foley artists so?
One that always annoys me is the sound effect of a pump-action shotgun being racked when a character clearly has a traditional break-action weapon. Arrrgh.
Great... Now I wanna make a Villain stupid enough to try that...
This whole thing of tearing up your expensive vellum seems a bit odd. You could just carefully scrape off the undesired parts and rewrite the document to your favour, assuming you were capable of that. Seems much more favourable than outright destroying the document. And as far as I know, forgery was not that uncommon of a practice in the middle ages. And I'm terribly sorry about my slightly wonky English.
Your English is great, and totally agreed here. Though if I were trying to dramatically destroy a castle deed, I'd probably chuck it in the hearth rather than pausing my monologue.
Aye, but look at the quality of our modern magazines... oh, it got a bit wet, let me just wipe it off with... oh, the wet bit rolled up into a grey-brown smush. But look at this Polaroid photograph... from decades ago. Wait... lamination! That's it... oh, it wouldn't roll so you folded it and it snapped?
@deathsminion25 Or just go over to the huge blazing fire already burning in the fireplace because it's Europe and central heating hasn't been invented yet.
"vaunrable"?
And the smell would be awful.
yeahwho the hell makes realistic movies...
Lol
122st
This all assumes facts not in evidence: presumes the scroll thingies actually were vellum. Prove it!
@deathsminion25 Stab the hero in the jugular, then put the vellum into the middle of a large blazing fire.