Japanese Knife Imports- A Primer on Steel
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2024
- In this video, we go over some of the basics of the steel types commonly used in Japanese Kitchen Knives. We have posted about this numerous times in our blog, but it seemed to make sense to make a video. I hope you guys find this helpful. Please keep in mind that this is a very basic overview, and that steel is also very dependent on the maker, heat treatment, forging process, etc.
If you have any other questions, please dont hesitate to ask. You can e-mail us at Jon@JapaneseKnifeImports.com or looks us up on the web at www.JapaneseKnifeImports.com.
Thanks so much.
-Jon
Best explanation of Japanese knife steels I have found anywhere. Thanks.
Great video, clear concise, and helpful, thanks!
I've been watching these video many time, always can learn & practice.
thanks for all the new videos Jon! much appreciated.
Great information!! I was really looking for this. Thanks Jon!
thanks so much... glad you found it helpful
Very helpful overview, thanks. +1.
Jon are the master of the sharpening , help me understand the sharpening and steel easily and very useful tip how to take care the knife, I'm very appreciate that what you teaching on youtube, hope you all the best .
Your videos are really informative! I've subscribed!
congrats
What you describe around 11 minutes in is something I've definitely experienced lately while experimenting with finishing my knives. When I finished a knife with SKD, it felt like it retained a ton of bite even at around an 8k finish, to how it felt to my fingers and in cutting, even if I refined the edge continuously for a long time on 5-8k stones. However, one of my white #2 knives felt very, very smooth; too smooth even; finishing on the same stone, and it can happen fast. One of my knives in VG10 felt a bit more bitey too, at both 5k and 8k.
Hi Jon - I did it again. I bought a Yu Kurosaki Raijin Cobalt Special 210 Gyuto. And ordered a Yoshimi Kato Black Damascus Gyuto in SG2 210 with red ferrule and Honduras Rosewood handle. So I have all the brittle stuff in place and try to master it. Let's see how they will behave. One thing I have learned with the Raijin - I have to completly change the way I cut with such a delicate blade - but man it blows throught stuff like nothing. I am impressed. But I have to learn how to use it. It's completely differnet. My old VG10 Damascus Haiku is a workhorse compared to the Yu Kurosaki Raijin!
Info here was really good
I loved the general overview you presented on the different types of steel available in fine cutlery. I have been evaluating two different knife sets one contains VG1 Steel and the other contains VG10 Steel, what is the difference (if any significant) between the two knives?
vg1 is a bit easier to sharpen and gets a bit sharper, but wont hold its edge quite as long... however, it will depend on the specific knife and heat treatment with regard to how it plays out in reality
@@JKnifeImports when you tell folks this, you are correct in that it all varies based on how the steel is treated but generally we speak off of the "normal" or standard way it's done. Which is a thing. Also the information you give is frankly wrong and misleading. There is zero empirical evidence to say that VG1 will get sharper. In fact it's harder steels which just in a basic physical materials science manner are able to take and hold more acute edge angles.. which is literally what keenness is in a physical sense, it's the acuity of the cutting apex. When you say sharp, you're then talking about the cutting edge and the bevel behind it. Knives are sharp, edges are keen. idk that i agree with the idea of how you're using "easier to sharpen" either, the fact of the matter is machinability or abrasion resistance is not the same thing at all as ease of sharpening. What you're taking about is essential ease of grinding, whereas sharpening involves more than this. Sharpening involves shaping an apex and usually involves forming and removing burrs, which different steels with different treatments will do differently, regardless of how easily or hard they are to grind,
This is the most informative for me to understand the steels used to make Japanese knives. Well done!
glad to be able to help... if you ever really want to get into the subject in more depth, check out knifesteelnerds.com
Thank you, I just bought a blue #2 knife from Sakai Takayuki ("Burrfection Knife")! So good to know, that I have to be more careful with that concerning chipping.
I would like to hear you discuss how the different steels perform against each other in different types of blades and grinds. Example, what steel do you prefer in a gyuto? Does a certain steel perform better when ground 50/50 as compared to a 70/30 grind? Etc.
This is much more about personal preference than a practical educational tool... i'm not convinced its a worthwhile venture, as my preference will likely be different from many other peoples, and both can be right. Also, as i mention in the video, real performance is significantly dependent on much more than just the steel type.
I love carbon but I think I'm gonna get an entry level bunka stainless vg10 with Damascus pattern. What are your thoughts of vg10? Other than the pandemic, I cook occasionally and enjoy it and the right tools. My knives are decent now but I really want to upgrade my 90% of everything knife with a 165mm since I have small hands and would like a nice handling to it
What did you end up going with? I've been looking into getting a Bunka knife for my wife, but we've only used the Wusthof Classic set.
Hi Jon - I did it again. I added a fourth knife with 'brittle' steel to my collection. This time I choosed a Ginsan knife. A Sakai Takayuki Tsuchime / Nashiji Gyuto 240 mm with a silver #3 core and black Persimmon handle. A very cool knife, in my opinion. I like the rustic look with elegance at the same time. I could not resit to buy this gorgeous knife. But I have to confess, I am driven primarily by the asthetics of a knife in my decisions. I try to optimise my finess of knife skill.
Hey Sonke, do you own any blades made of Shirogami #1? I think my next knife might be one made from Ginsan, but is the base steel used shirogami, with more CR added to make it similar to a stainless steel? I haven't researched Ginsan, so I don't know much about it.
@@Greyswyndir Hey there, I have no knife with White #1 but I have a Sakai Takayuki Gyuto 240mm from Ginsan. I just bought it at the beginning of this year. It has a nashji finish and hand engraved Kanji. Very beautiful knife. I really like it. I believe Ginsan is a great steel. Gets sharp is not too brittle and is easy to maintain.
@@Greyswyndir Hi Greyswindir Ginsan gives you a stainless blade which is almost equal to white #2 but easy to maintain. The downside is you have more work to sharpen and especially to deburr it! But the steel itself is great. I love it. As Jon said. The steel was developed to create traditional blades but beeing stainless. So it's almost on pair with White #2. Depending on the blacksmith, heat treatment etc. It behaves very similar to high carbon steel. The carbon content is up 1,10% and CR 13-14,5%. But some of the CR is bound to carbides. Which are extremly hard. So some call it semi-stainless, because that depends on the amount of unbound CR. But in reality it doesn' t rust during normal use.
@@sonkekoster3105 - Yeah, I hear getting rid of the burr is serious work, but I like the idea of a SS blade. There are some better stainless steels out there nowadays, so I'm conflicted as to which I might try.
@@sonkekoster3105 - I just bought a Gyuto made of Shirogami #1, but I think my next blade will be in stainless. I really like the Sujihiki profile. I might even try and make one myself at some point. I'd love to get a billet of CPM 154 and try and make my own Sujihiki.
Great video about Japanese knife steel! How about LC200N? I have a Spyderco fishing knife made in this steel and it rocks! Wish I could get a left handed yanagiba made from this steel...
I dont think you’ll see many Japanese craftsmen working with steels like this in single bevel knives sadly… it also happens to be a steel i dont have experience with. So sorry about that.
So I am still on my way - to find the best knife. I also use a Sabatier and I love my chinese vegetable cleaver. I learnd to use them im China in some cooking classes. With the right skill you can do erverything with them. I was only a little bit disappointed, that you mentioned in your videos that VG10 and Blue #2 are on the brittle side! And my three best knifes are of that steel. But don't worry about it.
Aogami #2 isn't quite as brittle as he makes it out to be, but the VG10 is very brittle and will chip, crack, and break very easily. I've seen a few VG10 knives break in half after falling on the floor. That's way too brittle a steel in my opinion, and that won't happen with blue (Aogami) steel #2.
Thanks. It was hard to determine the practical differences from some other videos I've seen, where it seemed to be more of a... let's say personal philosophy approach.
What steel type would you recommend I look for breaking down a whole fish???
I need something that can hold an edge for a decent amount of time, yet not be brittle enough to the point where it'll chip if I hit bone.
Looking into a sujihiki, since I may be using it on meat as well.
+Lardy Mctubster Sujihiki arent really designed for that kind of work to be frank.
AEBL. Much tougher than any white or blue stuff and actually stainless, but can get just as hard as you'd ever need but also it has more edge retention than even the hardest 65+ rc super blue. Easy to sharpen and maintain, tough as nails, good toughness even at high hardness of up to 64 rc, very stainless, very fine grain.... etc. etc. One of the OGs and one of the GOATs. 52100 would be okay too. I'd settle for something like Blue #2 if I had to though. The main issue with white is just total lack of any corrosion resistance and the cascade of effects from that, like higher maintenance to avoid rust or changing flavors of acidic foods and whatnt. IDK, I feel if it's 2023 and we're going to tolerate some rusty steel it might as well bring something to table and the fact of the matter is white steel brings nothing to the table beyond good hardness and fine grain structure. It's not particularly tough and it has about a little resistance to abrasion as any steel could, which doesn't matter as much but still. In real world practical sense there is no reason for end user to choose it over Blue #2. I do understand why the knifemaker likely would choose to make knives with white steel, because it's obviously easier to machine and grind and everything.
great video! you forgot to mention v2 steel though. usually i hear v2 described as being somewhere in between blue steel and white steel. do you agree with that?
It's in there towards the end of the carbon talk... You must have missed it
Japanese Knife Imports indeed. my bad.
What is your view on SKD-11 (SLD) steel. In terms of brittleness and edge retention mostly?
a lot of that depends on who its from (in terms of how it was worked with and heat treated). Generally SKD11 is going to have very good edge retention at the cost of being more difficult to sharpen. Often times, it ends up being on the brittle side of things, but thats not always the case (and i can easily think of a few examples of skd11 that are quite tough).
@@JKnifeImports Thanks for getting back. That's helpful.
@@Shuddho1980 no prob... our pleasure
Hello! Did you ever encountered FAX20 steel? If I understand it correctly it is a PM version of FAX18 high speed steel produced by Nachi Fujikoshi. It seems to have quite awesome properties, based simply on it's chemical composition. What is you opinion on these steels? As much as I have heard, at least Kiya has a knife line that uses FAX18... Thank you very much in advance.
sadly, no. Its not a steel i am familiar with. Sorry about that.
Thank you very much for your reply, Jonathan! I'm planning to buy a knife made of this FAX steel next time I'm in Japan. Maybe I can share some insight on the quality of the steel later, after I've put it to the stone and used it for a while in the kitchen. :)
Hi again Jon! Now after testing that knife made in FAX-20 powder steel for more than a half year can conclude the following:
1) the steel is not rust free (amount of chrome in it is 4%), but with proper care it does not develop any signs of rust or patina easily either. Just normal "wipe after use and store in a dry place" routine does the trick.
2) This steel can apparently reach up to 68-70 HRC but the knife is hardened at 62-64 (this is my guess). Why I think so? Tried to cut some really hard foods with it, like frozen meat and so on for testing, the edge does not chip but it clearly bends instead...
Over all - a wonderful choice for cutlery steel I would say. Relatively easy to resharp (maybe because the steel is not hardened to its full potential - after all this is a HEAVILY alloyed steel), keeps a sharp edge for very long time (up to several moths with normal use in a home kitchen), cost is on pair with most knives made in SG-2 steel, but this one is any way different and that adds the element of "cool".
For kitchen knife, which semi-stainless steel do you prefer, SKD11 (SLD ~ D2, better edge retention, more brittle, more chromium carbide volume) or SKD12 (SKD ~ A2, less edge retention, more durable, less chromium carbide volume)?
For SLD, what type of kitchen knife do you think is more suitable, robust or laser-like?
honestly, its more heat treartment dependent than steel dependent, but i lean SKD12 for my personal preference. SDK11 is fine in knives like a gyuto, santoku, petty, sujihiki, etc, as long as they are well heat treated and have good cross-sectional geometry.
John I’m coming very behind but have a question on your statement here:
"Blue #2 has little bit better toughness and durability, Blue#1 will have a little bit longer lasting edge and be capable of holding a more acute handle which will help it fee a little bit sharper.”
So how do you describe toughness and durability comparing with longer lasting edge? What is the difference? Cause I’m really into a blue#2 knife but that information halted me. What I understand is blue #1 is sharper, better edge retention. Isn’t it better than blue#2 overall? Thank you.
In general, toughness and durability are often at odds with edge retention. Increased edge retention will often result in less toughness, whereas increase toughness most often results in a loss of edge retention. Blue #2 resists damage better than blue #1, but blue #1 stays sharp longer. Does that help make sense of things? Longer lasting edges arent always better. Its about finding the right fit for you, your work environment, and even personal preferences (i still prefer easier to sharpen steels with great edge taking as opposed to things with excellent edge retention, as the tradeoff is usually that they are more time consuming to sharpen, dont take quite as nice of an edge, and are often more brittle (but not always).
@@JKnifeImports Himm that make sense. Now I have hundreds of other questions though. But I think I'm gonna send an email to you. Thank you!
great video! how does 52100 and o1 compare to the hitachi carbons?
thats a tough one to answer in part due to how different heat treating philosophies are here and in Japan. Do you have specific makers in mind when asking this? That might make it a bit easier to answer.
Bob Kramer's commercial brand carbon steel. I'm going to be getting a 10' . I like what I've read about it easy sharpening, fine edge, dont mind sharpening more frequently at all.
@@scottfulghum8408 52100 is vastly tougher than any of these steels. It also has really good hardenability and still maintains excellent toughness at very high hardness, but to a limit.. that limit is about 65 rc, which is very hard indeed. 52100 imo is objectively better than many or most of the Japanese steels for most uses. personally, I prefer AEBL because it's actually stainless, has excellent hardness and toughness, very fine grain, but it also has a lot more resistance to wear and abrasion than any of these carbon and low alloy steels as a result of it's chromium content. There is a new variant of 52100 which includes a tungsten addition I believe that is designed for kitchen knives and it looks really cool. Basically top class hardness, excellent toughness, very fine grain, and yet it has as much abrasion resistance as legitimate high carbon stainless cutlery steels. Rare and expensive. Good luck finding it on anything other than $500+ custom.
Could you expand on what you mean by settling in the PM steels and how they lose sharpness that way?
I'm sure there are guys with PhD's that can do a better job, but as i understand it, because the fine grain structure is artificially created, its not quite as stable... this causes the settling of the steel. However, more than a scientific explanation, which clearly mine is not, i say this based on my experience with a wide variety of powdered steels. I'm sure CATRA tests have been done by someone along the way, but try for yourself and see what you find. Sharpen a knife made with powdered steel and test one section of the blade... then let it sit for a day and test another section.
Japanese Knife Imports John, have you seen a similar or related behavior in forged vs stock removal steels?
Cliff Stamp no i have not... i will say i have seen a difference in performance in some cases though... but it really is dependent on the HT process. Some stock removal guys have HT's that work really well for grain size, toughness, ease of sharpening, etc., while others try to do the same kinds of HT's as those who are forging, forgetting about the effect that the forging process has on grain growth and reduction, etc.
Cliff Stamp Hey, i noticed on your blog a discussion about this video (and some others), including my understanding of PM steels. I think i may have not explained myself well in previous posts. Here is a more clear explanation of what i meant to say. PM steels can be made (and in many cases are made) by atomizing the elements of the steel and sintering them together. In many cases, the atomized particles of large carbide forming alloys are smaller than the carbides they might otherwise form. My assumption (which might very well be wrong, and might be more accurately described by what you discussed about steel "settling"), based on what i was seeing in real life experience, was that through this process of atomizing and sintering, the edge stability of the steel was impacted, causing this "settling" of the steel. I may very well be wrong here, and, as i said before, there are guys with PhD's who can do a much better job explaining this than I. The point to take away from this video is that, in my experience with PM steels in kitchen knives, they do in fact settle after sharpening. Hope this helps explain what i was trying to say earlier in a more clear fashion.
Japanese Knife Imports Jon, in early PM steels there were issues with porosity and segregation, but in general, for modern PM steels the mechanical properties are actually higher than the wrought counterparts.
Note that both steels will under go extensive rolling in the finally processing stage which is what sets the grain size. The PM steels in general will have a finer austenite grain size simply because the primary carbide aggregates are more well distributed and they serve as points of nucleation as well as pin grain boundaries.
It is curious you notice that kind of behavior with the PM steels, I can't think on an obvious reason why it would happen. However it is likely to happen with very high carbide steels (especially vanadium ones) if you use typical waterstones and burr sharpen.
I would be curious if you would notice it with a PM and wrought example of the same alloy, 154CM vs CPM 154 for example.
As an aside, I apologize for spelling your name wrong constantly, I just noticed you spell it Jon on the website.
This is a fantastically technical video, it's exactly what I've been looking for as an engineer entering the realm of knives and knife sharpening as a serious hobby so thank you. I am working on restoring some neglected pampered chef knives and was curious if you might know what type of steel they might be? My research has suggested "High Carbon German Steel" but i have no idea what that means.... thank you in advanced for any assistance you may have.
Chances are its X45CrMoV15 but I’m not 100% sure
@@JKnifeImports if it is, would that be like a high carbon steel? If so, what are your recommendations for sharpening? (With or against blade edge) I've been having issues with chipping while trying to rebuild the edge.... is it even a quality of steel/knife worth restoring? (Sorry if that comes off as brash, I'm a newby at this)
its also fantastically wrong. saying blue steel doesn't get as sharp is just false. no if and or but about it. it's plain wrong. it's a simple minded way to misunderstand theoretical information about sub micrometer structures which isn't applicable in the real world in this case. Telling that to end users is misleading. It's also misleading though less so to say that it's harder to grind.. while that is technically and empirically true unlike the first point of contention, it's also essentially irrelevant because both of these steels, one carbon and one low alloy, are in the domain of extremely easy to grind, ie high machinability steels. In reality on any abrasive the consumer is actually going to have, they will notice zero difference in how they grind. Both steels will basically melt on any whetstone, regardless of what hardness they're at. 66 rc super blue melts on any whetstone, vastly easier than virtually any stainless steel and certainly any stainless steel any one listening to this video will have in a kitchen knife. That's just the nature of chromium in steel.
Great video! I recently got a kazan hap40 hammered gyoto knife from chubo. What can you tell me about a HAP40 a powdered steel blend featuring high levels of Vanadium, Molybdenum, Cobalt and Tungsten, in regards to sharpness and retention?
Of course the way the knife was heat treated will have quite a bit to do with it, but my general impression of having used and sharpend a decent bit of HAP40 is that the edge retention is excellent, the toughness is good considering the hardness, and it gets decently sharp all considering. But its not the easiest to sharpen (not super hard, but not what i would consider easy) and doesnt get quite as sharp as I would like. If you're looking for a steel with great edge retention and decent toughness, it could be great. If you prefer edge taking and ease of sharpening, there are other steels i might check out.
Check out Cedric and eda
@@jonathanbroida9257 Hello
Can i ask wich steel do you think you can get the sharpest?
I have zdp198 and and i cannot get supersharp. It is ok but the degrades quickly and than stays there on 85 percent sharpnes.
@@Dr.Sciatica any simple carbon steels like white #2, white #1, 1095, etc. On your zdp, whats your sharpening process like?
@@JKnifeImports Hello
When the edge is gone i usualy start on chosera 400 to get a burr. Than i go on cerax 1000 again to the point to feel and remove a burr. Than chosera 3000 and after Suehiro rika 5000.
You think this is Ok?
What kind of steel is actually fc61 that is used in some knives by ZWILLING as for example in some Miyabi series ? I wasn’t able to find out much about it.
I'm not an expert on the zwilling knives by any means, but as i understand it, their fc61 is aeb-l (13c26). Of course, i could be wrong. You may want to just ask them directly. Hope this helps.
Japanese Knife Imports thanks a lot for your prompt answer. Happy and successful new year!
Zwillings Mc66, "Micro Carbide 66" is a 66 hrc zdp-189, which is pretty much the only usable 66 hrc steel with small carbides, so this was pretty easy to find out some years ago. The FC 61 stands for fine carbide at 61hrc. This could be vg10 or something similar. But since most fine carbide stainless steel around 60 or 61 hrc are pretty much the same and you can be sure that zwilling has a good heat treatment and quality control, it's not that important to know what brand name the steel comes with.
marco köhler it’s for sure not vg10 as vg10 still has a tendency for point rust (what is one reason why they often come packed in stainless. Fc61 is maybe some sort of aebl-steal as some people speculate or maybe even a powder steal but not with such a high carbide content..from my snipping test at least I’ve got the impression that it is not forged by hammer but I might be wrong ....no one really knows. Needles to say I’ve got the diploma from Zwilling ...and besides the not so great work on the edge itself the steel seems to be pretty good.
World Peace im pretty sure, zwilling uses their fc61 and mc66 only for a thin middle layer as well, but the difference between those two steels is pretty small anyways, if you want to step up, there are some nice hap40 and zdp-189 for around 200 out there. I'm really satisfied with gihei knives because they're almost laser shaped ootb
Is White Steel 1/Shirogami 1 the sharpest possible Japanese carbon steel? because its purity, hardness and finest grain structure (less carbides)?
With most Carbon content, and additional Chromium and Tungsten etc. to Blue Steel Super/Aogami Super, which one possible sharper, Shirogami 1 or Aogami Super?
white #1 (and white steel in general) will be capable of getting sharper than blue steels overall. Of course, some of this is heat treatment dependent, but in general, blue steels will stay sharp longer but be more time consuming to sharpen and not get quite as sharp.
Any Japanese stainless steel based on Shirogami #2 with additional minimum Chromium just for "stainless" attribute (around 12%)?. If no any, which Japanese stainless steel close to it? (minimum impurities, around 1% Carbon content, enough Chromium just for stainless attribute, and less carbide-forming elements).
Why Aogami #1 is less popular for kitchen knives than Aogami #2 and Aogami super?
not quite... hitachi developed ginsanko with the idea of being like carbon steel in terms of edge taking and retention, but i dont think its that close. Not Japanese steel, but AEB-L has a super fine grain structure. The thing is that adding chromium, even just barely enough to make it stainless, will inherently change the way the steel functions. In terms of blue steel, i dont think blue #1 is less popular. Blue #2 is more durable, so people see that as advantageous for kitchen use. Also, blue super is more easily marketable, due to the name and the fact that it focuses on extreme edge retention. But personally, I prefer the balance that blue #1 provides. You can see we have a decent bit on our site with blue #1 for what its worth.
Which would you guys choose? White #2 or Blue #1?
honestly depends on so much its not easy to answer... who is the craftsman, what was the heat treatment like, what is the knife intended to be used on, how am i planning on sharpening it, what kind of environment will i be using it in. The truth is that, in my experience, cross-sectional geometry is so much more important that steel type.
My wife is a chef and already has aus, vg10 and sg2 set of knives. I wish to add one more for her from Chouyou, either white #2 or blue #2. I just can't decide.
@@deep-seeker I know Kawamura-san for sure, but i feel odd commenting publically about his products being that we have no business relationship nor do we carry his products. Maybe it would make sense to reach out to someone selling them, as they should be in a better position to help you decide.
Why "mono steels (Honyaki)"? IS there a performance benefit over a SS clad knife? Or are they really in the end more trouble than they're worth...for a home cook or pro...
i guess it depends on what you are looking for in the performance of your knife. Mono-steel or honyaki knives resist bending MUCH better than clad knives (stainless or carbon). They are also less prone to scratching and provide a different tactile feel when cutting. In terms of edge retention or edge taking, that has less to do with the construction and more to do with the way the knife was made/heat treated. However, honyaki knives do tend to get more care and attention in the making process, and people are often comfortable pushing the limits of what a steel can do in those cases, as they often go to experienced users who can push the limits a bit more. There are certainly clad knives that do the same though.
@@JKnifeImports Does that make the steel more brittle?
@@AGC828 huh?
On the other hand you are not a fan of VG10. I own a Haiko Chroma Damascus knife for almost 20 years. It has a VG10 core and I had no chipping issues with it. So I hope I will enjoy my first carbon steel japanese knife.
As long as you baby the VG10 and don't drop it, it should last you a lifetime. If you're clumsy, then you're in for a world of pain.
@@Greyswyndir Hi there, you are right. But that is a bad idea for any knife with high Rockwell rating!!!
@@sonkekoster3105 - Definitely, though some steels are a little tougher, even at a slightly higher HRC, like Aogami. Either way, I agree with you, best to treat them gently.
The composition of Ginsan #3 is similar to AEB-H, and it is not a fine-grained steel. Ginsan #3 is a simple stainless steel, basically containing only Iron, carbon and chromium, with no hard carbides (V, W, Mo).
Why is Hitachi PS60 (an AEB-L equivalent, a fine-grain structure) not popular for Japanese kitchen knives? If heat treated properly to 61/62 HRC, it would be a great steel for kitchen knives.
its not unpopular (though not always by the brandname ps60). We see aeb-l in japnese kitchen knives on a regular basis now.
Why are you so hesitant concerning VG10. My first set of japanese knifes were a 200 mm gyuto and a 150 mm Patty from Haiku / Chroma Cutlery with Damascus blades from Sumikami (Katzumi Knifes). I bought them many years ago - years before japanese knifes become popular in Europe. I had so far, no issues with chipping and the blades are very thin. I think you would call them Lazers. Especially the blade ot the Patty. I personally think because they are so light: 130 gr for the gyuto and the patty is much lighter, I won't give them too much pressure to hurt the edge. The quality is great and I love them beside beeing VG10!
Outside of those two knives, have you tried many others? Even in comparison to both the Haiku/Chroma and Kasumi brands, there are many knives that are thinner (I would not categorize either as a laser based on my experience with them, though they are not thick by any means), easier to sharpen, better at edge taking, more enjoyable to sharpen, have better edge retention, etc. VG10 isn't an objectively bad steel. There are certainly some vg10 knives I enjoy. But they arent my favorite. Now, comparing something like your Haiku or Kasumi to something like a Wusthof... well, of course what you have will be more enjoyable in almost every way (except toughness and durability). If you take one thing away from this, it shouldn't be what my opinion on steels is, but rather to take time and be introspective with respect to what you like/dislike and how you use and care for things, and try to find a steel and heat treatment combo that suits you best. If that's the vg10 you've got now, awesome. Its more important that you are happy with your knives than the internet is happy with them.
@@JKnifeImports yes I tried many more Knifes. First - if you look at my older comments. I bought a Sakai Takayuki Burrfection Launch Edditon knife. Which has a blue #2 core. I really feel the difference between this knife and der German or VG10 knifes. But on the other hand the steil is not all. The Profile of the knife ist very straigth. So it's great to slice but not so good for rocking. The blade is very long 240mm. So I have to adjust my style and always use the bigger wooden board in the kitchen. So there are some drawbacks.
I also use a Yanaiba on a regular base, because I like to prepare and eat Sashimi. It's is a cheap and stainless one. But I like it.
I also use an cheap Nakiri - just for the fun. To learn the different blade profile. How to scharpen then and so on.
What about FC61 stainless on Kramer's Euroline?
it seems to be Henckels version of 13c26... a finely grained swedish stainless steel with decent (but not spectacular) edge retention, good toughness, and good edge taking and ease of sharpening
@@JKnifeImports Thanks for your expert reply. That is great as I got it for my daily abuse. I feel my Masmoto KS is too delicate for daily use. So far, the edge is holding up ok with the FC61. After about a week of use, I touched it up on a 3000 as I could see some burr/bend on the edge. Now it makes sense with what you said.
@@hkninja38 masamoto KS in white #2 or stainless? How do you find it to be too brittle? Are there specific tasks that you had in mind? I ask because I have found that as soon as people truly understand what causes chipping, avoiding it is much easier.
@@JKnifeImports My bad I wasn't being clear. My Masamoto is the W2 version. When I said it is being delegate, I meant the extra care to prevent patina, stain and rust. The stainless Kramer is what I got for daily use and the edge showed some minor bends after a week or so use to slice meats and cut up veggies on a wood cutting board. Not sure if it has anything to do with the way I cut or it is the way it is. Out of all the knives I have, my Miyabi with SG2 chips the easiest, imo.
@@hkninja38 that makes sense. Also on the chipping... sg2 is a hard and brittle steel, but it stays sharp for a decently long time
Hi Jon- which carbon steel is considered the best in cutlery world, i have listened a speech from a master smith, that white 1 forged from a hand of an absolute master, is superior to any steel in cutlery world. On the other hand lot of blacksmiths like Y. Tanaka, Nakagawa is using blue 1 more than any steel. How white 1 vs blue 1 is compered in real life.
You're talking about murray carter... i dont necessarily agree that white #1 is the answer to best. Best is such a subjective thing. I think what he's getting at is that white #1, being such a simple steel, allows the skill of the craftsman to shine through a bit more than other more forgiving steels. However, my experience is that best will depend on each individuals specific needs, and is a function of matching a steel/heat treatment/geometry combination with those needs.
What is the name of the Swedish steel that resembles Tamahagane? You talk about it 7:50 but never name it.
the 3 craftsmen who use it, and who introduced it to me, treat it as a proprietary secret... sorry about that.
@@JKnifeImports According to retailer Knifewear it is from Udderholm, but the specific variety is not detailed.
Also there seems to be some confusion about the usage of the swedish steel. Some sources citing that it is the core of the san mai sandwich, some state that it is a component in the tamahagane-clone pattern welded cladding.
I honestly dont understand why he cant just use legit tamahagane since it is actually available in Japan, but maybe its reserved for swords?
Thanks anyway for the video.
@@iCanHazTwentyLetters i've found that quite a bit gets lost in translation... for that reason, I'm thankful to have Japanese language in my pocket (and a native speaker as a wife to make fun of me for all of the things I still get wrong). The Swedish steel used would be the core steel. There may be people using things similar to soft tamahagane in cladding, but that is far less common. People don't use tamahagane because its not commonly available in japan (not a lot of production), crazy expensive, and not particularly consistent as a product, thus requiring extra work to get it to be a functional knife steel. But there are certainly knives made from tamahagane... I own a coupe.
@@JKnifeImports Oh ok that makes sense. Thanks again :)
I have the samme experience as you with pm steels with my takamura migaki in r2/sg2 it gets as sharp as my gyuto in aogami 2 of the stone but after it sits for a day to it gets a little bit less sharp but stays sharp longer.
The expection is my shibata kotetsu gyuto in r2/sg2 that seams more glassy and harder feel to it dont have that problem its also much more easy to deburr and at the samme time a good bit more durable to me that os weird as it feels harder.
yeah... not everything is that way, but it was an experience i had with quite a few. Glad the shibata is working out well for you. They are super thin too, which is nice.
Japanese Knife Imports yes it works really good the takamura needs a good strong microbevel to work and still as said it goes a little bit in sharpness by sitting still
Its weird
zdp 189 and hap 40
How about Monosteel?
mono-steel isnt a steel type, but rather a construction type. What questions did you have about it? Happy to help.
@@JKnifeImports I want a knife that does not rust, but has the sharpness of a carbon knife.
@@freddieslaughter1107 well, there are some stainless steels that will get as sharp (aeb-l for example, but also a number of powdered steels). There are also steels that will stay sharp as long or longer (again powdered stainless steels). But none of them will be the same as carbon steel... some may be more time consuming to sharpen for example.... or more brittle. But if zero (or almost zero) rust is where you need to be, its going to be some stainless variant. If patina and the potential for light rust is ok, semi-stainless or stainless clad varients would be a good option. If you want to have a more in-depth conversation about this, feel free to email us anytime at jon@japaneseknifeimports.com
@@JKnifeImports Thanks so much for the info, I just like knives and different styles
@@freddieslaughter1107 no prob... happy to help
Anyone use honmamon knives ?
we see them in for sharpening from time to time... kind of standard seki fare
@@JKnifeImports
Thanks
Lots of technical babble but no suggestions for us home cooks as to what to buy. I want a good sharp durable knife that doesn't cost $500.
Sorry that the video didnt cover what to buy, but i'd be happy to help with that. Just shoot me an e-mail at jon@japaneseknifeimports.com and we can walk through a number of questions that will help us help you better. You certainly don't need to spend $500 for a good knife.
You lost me at a primer for steel.
Ha ha. Your bathroom faux Japenese gown...
that would have been funny for sure... but this is actually an aizome samue... an indigo died type of japanese craftsmen clothing. Now that I think about it, thats pretty dorky too, but ok well ;)
it's straight up deceptive to folks who don't know better and not true that blue steel is in any real-world sense 1.) More difficult to sharpen, or 2, doesn't take as keen of an edge. These theoretical considerations are only ideas in the land of theory. And even in theory they are not really valid, it's just a less sophisticated understanding by conflating things in terms of scale. I don't need to get into all the details but it should be obvious to anyone with some critical faculties and basic knowledge.
In reality, while they do technically have slightly worse machinability, meaning slightly more abrasion resistance, they are both in the domain easy to machine, low abrasion resistance, steels. Blue steel in real life grinds and sharpens just as easily as white steel even with the most basic and traditional abrasives, and 2, blue steel get every bit as sharp aka takes just as keen of an edge. Additionally, hardness for hardness they're also not any more brittle either, though to be clear it seems all of these Japanese carbon and low alloy steels are fairly brittle and low highly machinable in the grand scheme.
Hitachi themselves claims that white steel was never intended for use in kitchen knives in the first instance. Blue steel is. Blue steel was literally created for use in kitchen knives. And according to Hitachi it's not the highest carbon version blue that's the best bet for kitchen knives but rather blue #1 and blue #2. SB is fine and the name sounds cool and all but at high hardness it's just too damn brittle. What you want in a steel for something like a fine kitchen knife is the combo of hardness and toughness, able to get very hard but also maintains good toughness at high hardness, as far as performance is concerned. Generally any steel that fits that bill have have very fine grain structure just by the nature of how it works. Corrosion is secondary along with abrasion resistance or what some folks seems to (wrongly) call "edge retention." For my money some done AEBL will run circles around essentially all of this stuff. Well done blue #2 also seems to be a good sweet spot. You need something hard enough to take the finest angles and keenest edges while resisting deformation but tough enough to also resist chipping, which is the worst mode of failure. AEBL can do all of that but it's stainless, has MUCH more "edge retention" than even chippy 66 rc super blue, yet it's vastly tougher than any of these frankly sort of obsolete Japanese steels.
the reality is, in the thinnest edges, white #2 works just fine. Even though it has no corrosion resistance, poor toughness, and basically zero abrasion resistance. Just goes to show you don't need much. It's high machinability is nice because it's easy to maintain for even derp end users, aside from the rust. All you need is some hardness, a tiny bit of toughness and decent grain.