Dr Kat and the Voynich Manuscript
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- Опубликовано: 31 янв 2019
- Following a viewer suggestion *thank you, Caius Martius Coriolanus*, this video explores the tangled history of the Voynich Manuscript. The manuscript is now held in the Beinecke Rare Books and Manuscript Library at Yale University; they have digitised it and it is available at beinecke.library.yale.edu/col....
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Intro / Outro song: Silent Partner, "Greenery" [ • Greenery - Silent Part... ]
Images:
Photograph of the Villa Mondragone (15 September 2006 (original upload date)) by R Clemens at English Wikipedia
A portrait of Wilfrid Michael Voynich (1900) by an unknown photographer
Multiple images of the Voynich Manuscript come from the Beinecke's digitisation (brbl-dl.library.yale.edu/vufi...)
Photograph of Hans P. Kraus taken in 1959 at the time he purchased a St. Albans Apocalypse
Photograph of the interior of the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Designed by SOM in 1963 (16 January 2010, 16:45:20); taken by Lauren Manning
Image of the unsolved 340-character Zodiac cypher from the late 1960s
Johann Balzer engraving of Johannes Marcus (1772). Source: 87 Abbildungen Böhmischer und Mährischer Gelehrten und Künstler, in Kupfer gestochen und verlegt von Johann Balzer, Prag 1772, S.23
Statue of Roger Bacon in the Oxford University Museum of Natural History. The photograph was taken by Michael Reeve, 30 May 2004
Francesco Melzi’s drawing of Leonardo da Vinci (after 1510); held in the Collection of the Royal Librarian (Winsor Castle, United Kingdom)
An image from a set of 8 extra-illustrated volumes of A tour in Wales by Thomas Pennant (1726-1798) that chronicle the three journeys he made through Wales between 1773 and 1776. These volumes are unique because they were compiled for Pennant's own library at Downing. This edition was produced in 1781. The volumes include a number of original drawings by Moses Griffiths, Ingleby and other well-known artists of the period. Held in the National Library of Wales
An image of a Grey Alien designed for Genesis 3
An artist’s impression of Atlantis. Source: voidswrath.com
Portrait of John Dee by an unknown artist (16th century); held by the Ashmolean Museum
Hans von Aachen’s portrait of Emperor Rudolf II (1590s); held in the Kunsthistorisches Museum
Johann Balzer’s engraving of Jacobus Sinapius (aka Jakub Horcicky of Tepenec) (1772)
Cornelis Bloemaert’s engraving of Athanasius Kircher (1665); held in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum
I wonder if the parchment was ever scanned in infrared (etc) light. It was historically common for scribes to re-use parchment by scraping off old ink/paint. Scanning it in various wavelengths could reveal any earlier writing. Not that i think Voynich necessarily forged it, simply that it could have been written at any time up to the carbon dating period by anyone, genuinely or forged. I will say though, that calligraphy is NOT an easy art to forge. Managing a quill or dip pen, maintaining even characters, spacing, steadiness...these are all qualities that take years/decades to master. It would be interesting to have a forensic handwriting analyst take a look at it. They would be able to compare it to Bacon's or da Vinci's previous writings, see if there are any comparable strokes, that kind of thing. Interesting episode.
Supposedly it was all previously unused. Genetic tests indicate the parchment was all made from 16 calf skins. Carbon dated to ~1400's.
I think it was and they found a name that had been scratched off the parchment. Not sure if it was infrared light or not.
I heard an interesting theory that the Voyinch Manuscript is actually a grimoire and thus it is written in cypher to try and elude the religious authorities who would crack down on such a thing.
I think that is exactly what it is
It was solved in 2017...Turkish father and son apparently from memory.
Dr. Kat, thank you so much for all of your videos. You’ve been keeping me company, and educating me, as I shelter in place. This video by far is my favorite because the truth is unknown. I love thinking about what it could be. Keep the videos coming! You’re keeping me sane! Also, I’d like to request a video about Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Yes, please, I second the request for Eleanor!
Yes!!!!!
I also would like to request a video on Eleanor of Aquitaine #bossqueen
Awesome suggestion
Your passion for history is contagious! When I watch your videos, I often find myself taking notes so I can look up more information later. Thank you for that, Dr. Kat.
The story of the Voynich Manuscript reminded me of two manuscripts (Queen’s Court and Green Mountain) found in Bohemia in the early nineteen century. They appeared to be ancient Slavic epic manuscripts written in old Czech. It took decades before the literary and scientific communities were able to agree that the manuscripts were forgeries. The person who discovered both manuscript was believed to be the author of both documents.
The debate about the documents’ authenticity was rekindled several times over the last century and even in the last ten years. None of researcher teams was able (or perhaps willing) to prove or disprove the manuscripts’ authenticity with absolute certainty. Regardless of their origin, both manuscripts are considered to be remarkable literary achievements.
I'm going to go have a look at those because that sort of thing is so fascinating to me, I've never heard of them. Cheers, thanks!
A very objective take on this interesting manuscript, thank you. I found the suggestion that it may be a written form of "speaking in tongues" interesting simply because having looked at some of the pages before, I knew it had reminded me of something I had seen elsewhere; namely the spirit drawings from the early Shaker communities in America. I'm not suggesting that they are related, but both have that naive yet definite quality to the illustration. The Shaker drawings were (supposedly) gifted to the artists in dreams or visions. I find them very beautiful in their simplicity.
The manuscript brought to my mind "Vivian Girls" by Henry Darger.
If it were "speaking in tongues" wouldn't someone understand it? That's what happened in the Bible.
It does have similarities to what’s called outsider art. Often these are huge endeavors, with cryptic messages (sometimes in mystical invented languages) created by a religiously devout individual using locally available materials. One wonders if someone living in a monastic setting might have created such a document.
Two more recent examples of this type of create expression include
The writings of late 19th/early 20th century medium Hélène Smith (real name Catherine-Elise Mülle).
James Hampton, The Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations' Millennium General Assembly, created ca. 1950-1964. This piece is now in the National Museum of American Art.
The thing about creations of this kind is that they’re deeply personal, sincere works, and not intended to defraud (or even be viewed by) anyone.
Perhaps how we look at it does reflect on the way we think about things. As a special educator my first thought was to wonder if maybe it was the work of someone long ago who had autism. The way of thinking, perceiving and processing the world would be absolutely unique, so not a code to be deciphered. It would explain the unique aspects of the drawings as well. The detail and amount of time invested would be in keeping as well. Just a thought.
Hi there, I had the same theory. I sent my post before I found yours with the very same idea.
It's true, we see the world trough the prism
of our experience and knowledge.
Have a good day.
Facsinating.
I love how you dig up these obscure documents. Leonardo DaVinci never really finished something huge, he got too bored too quickly, so this feels a bit too big for him to have created this, he also did not have massive access to recources as a child, so that would be a bit surprising.
I do a lot of crafting and it's not that difficult to find vintage supplies. Now of course, we are talking about things that are not nearly as old as this vellum, but a lot of people would not throw out old supplies that were already valuable in the time they were produced. Vellum is made from animal skins and is an expensive material. I think it's definitely possible Voynich came across someone selling a stack of antique vellum and mineral paints. Likely, I don't know, but possible, absolutely.
That said, I have been watching this channel today while handspinning, on a spindle. I'd love for Dr. Kat to talk about how ladies at court spent their spare time.
I agree that this is the most likely scenario.
No, they tested the paint as well as parchment.
Oh I had got a phase of discussing and trying to make sense of the manuscript some time back. Its absolutely captivating and it just catches you and pulls you in and in.
As an herbalist I was going through the plant sections and trying to understand what these depict and what therefore could be the words, but nothing really fits. You have no idea how many plants have gone extinct and what the present day plants looked like ages ago, nobody does - and the uncertain dating and all that does not make the thing easier. You can of course assume, but once you start assuming it all just blends up into a mess of clashing theories and you are building castels on sand, assumption upon assumption, and theres nothing one can know for sure. And the flora changes constantly and its so very complicated to look at things from say medivel times. It was hard enough for me to go through the ages old herbaries in my own langauge - voynich's manuscript is some other extraterrestial level, and well, lovecraftian type thoughts keep coming up.
Im happy to have ended my temporary obsession with this text. If you start, remember not to get carried away, freinds!!!!
Thank you for the video. Although I have known the subject it was very refreshing to hear your take on the manuscript
I have done well translating into Serbo-Croatian, using Croatian Glagolitic cursive as part of the writing system. The plants are seldom labelled with names as we might expect. Instead they are labelled with their characteristics or uses.
Voynich reminds me of Dean Corso, the Johnny Depp character in the movie, "The Ninth Gate".
It’s supposed to. It was part of the novel writers inspiration. I read an article around the time of the movie’s release where the interviewer asked the director, Roman Polanski, about the story. The movie is loosely based on the novel ‘the club dumas’ (1993) by Arturo Perez- Reverte. It’s basis starts in the world of booksellers like Voynich and then moves beyond to the devil worshippers and such. So good catch. I loved that movie.
Thank you for this very interesting video. I have no in-depth view to share but I would like to say that the Voynich has always irresistably reminded me in an oblique way of the work of Charles Altamont Doyle. Doyle produced bizarre artwork attempting to prove his sanity whilst committed in an asylum; and sadly the work seems to prove the opposite. I am also reminded of the way that the mad, the ill, or the disturbed were shut away when they were members of a family who could afford to do so privately so that no one in the outside world would suspect their existence (poor little epileptic Prince John for example). A "mad" person who had strong artistic and literary talents might be kept quiet and occupied if supplied with vellum and paints, especially if he believed that his resulting artwork could tell the truth of a tale that only he could envision--that is what I suspect the Voynich manuscript to be and that it is, to borrow a quote from William Faulkner, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
I love unsolved mysteries and I've heard a bit about the Voynich manuscript before, but I learned loads from this video. Thanks!
Thanks for watching and for commenting. I'm really pleased you found it useful.
I remember reading something about this a while ago , I’m sorry I can’t site where as I can’t recall - but it was something about the Manuscript being a guide to women’s gynecological health and the language was a Medieval Latin and if I remember correctly , that some of the words referred to plants or herbs and were abbreviated like a kind of shorthand , which is why it’s hard to decipher . One of the things theorized was that the zodiac references in the Manuscript were there because it was believed that treatments, herbs, and cures were more successful if administered at certain astrological times and under specific signs. Again I’m sorry I can’t be specific with where I read this as it was about 2 years ago. However at the time I did think it was an interesting theory.
Usually a couple times a year people come up with "complete translations" in Latin, Hebrew, etc. None of these pass basic scrutiny.
One contribution that holds promise is from the Ardic family of Calgary which translated some of it via Old Turkic. I have a good system that yields Serbo-Croatian. Neither of us claim to be able to translate the whole thing.
The VM is comparable to some old women's health publications. I believe it is a fertility text. (Of special interest to me is whether or not the VM was in the library of Matthias Corvinus, king of Hungary and Croatia. Interestingly he had some very young wives. If it was in his library then some of my ancient in-laws were involved in acquiring the document.)
For the most part I am wiped out with chronic severe migraine. I am thinking I have to give up all my interests beyond basic survival. I have posted and published my work all along the way because it will take international work to completely solve the whole thing. I worked most my translations back through etymology, proto-Slavic and proto-Turkic. There is one I did not. It was late at night and I was so surprised I simply copied it. It is very pertinent at this time but without etymology proof it must be suspect: "The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague."
That is my personal favorite theory! That women had a manuscript, a document to help them with specifically THEIR health from other women, because women's health then and even now is less explored and less "important" to medical professionals. I like to imagine it had the medieval secrets to keeping everything healthy!
@@Liv-dh6tn I don't know where you get that idea from. The majority of health initiatives coming out every year are aimed at women. The majority of people in the health profession are also women. As more women get into power and positions to drive policy, men's physical and mental health gets increasingly overlooked and swept under the carpet.
My couple of pennies...
From what I've read, the script in the manuscript follows the pattern of a natural language, albeit not a readily identifiable one (the number of actual 'letters' is statistically rather high). One scholar evidently thinks he identified it as belonging to a somewhat obscure Asian language group. But my own suspicion is that the author--who was writing a medical book, i.e. medicine seen through lenses of alchemy and astrology--somehow learned an obscure language and assigned an original script to it, one that might well have a very eccentric linguistic style. Their intention was to sell it, and for as much as the market would bear hence its high quality and overtly mysterious text.
Was thrilled to see you do a video on this subject!
My work has yielded Serbo-Croatian. The Ardic family of Calgary in March 2018 produced some work in Old Turkic. I very much respect their work. I use Croatian Glagolitic cursive to work on the writing and I suspect this was influenced by Old Turkic.
I began sharing my work on Reddit. It will take international effort to completely work out all the secrets. A Croatian scholar criticized my work for bad grammar but did not say the words were wrong. Actually, depending on the sound of one letter, the grammar could work out, whether the sound would be /S/ like saw or /Z/ like Zorba.
For now, chronic, severe migraine has destroyed my life and perhaps I must do nothing more than barely survive. I have no idea if I will ever be able to return to the work.
Hi Dr. Kat. Thanks for this fascinating video. My husband is an amateur paleographer and has worked with velum and mineral pigments in an attempt to create replicas of medieval illuminations and texts. He informs me that vellum was often scraped clean and reused and reused and reused. This is not unlike the work of forgers when they paint over a 17th century canvas so that the carbon dating will be correct even though they are painting the forgery in the 20th century. So the earliness of the velum, as you say, is not as problematic as it dating too late. To my eye, however, the text (and I've only seen the pages you show in this video) appear to have the same "words", or rather letter groups, repeated over and over again. It almost appears as if the words are meant as decorations, not real words, not something that can be read and understood. I am a speaker of Japanese and I have found that friends of mine who do not read Japanese look on written Japanese more as decoration than as text. They want to put Japanese words on their walls as art whereas to me, that just looks like signage. So I wonder... is it a code? Or is it just a pretty arrangement of letter groups. That, of course, does not answer the question of why someone would spend so much money making this folio. Of course if it were produced in the early 20th century and not the 15th or 16th century, it would not be such a huge expense (although it would still require months of work to produce).
I went to the Yale website to look at more pages, and I've had exactly the same impression - same groups of letters keep repeating. I'm inclined to agree with the theory that the author had a specific mindset - not necessarily a mental illness, just a different wiring. Being on the spectrum myself, I can't help wondering if it would take a certain mindset to make sense of the manuscript.
I have spent considerable time researching this manuscript. Most recently a father son team have tried to decode it. They have been the most successful, perhaps, thus far. It's thought to be an ancient Turkish language. Or something similar. It definitely intrigues the mind!
thank you Dr Kat for this video! I like very much how you are presenting things. I like the statement about a hall of mirrors. It is an iritating mystery! I created a scenario in my phantasy about mentally ill monk, who ´s routine was to copy manuscripts for hours every day and somehow he had lost it and started doing his own manuscript and other monks just let him because what else to do with him? Watchin this video I suddenly remembered an incident from my childhood : I was 6 or so, before I could write, my mother took me to her office and I had to sit for a long time and wait for her to finish her work. I was given a paper and pencil and I filled pages and pages with a kind of writing, which didn´t have any letters in it, but I was just copying the movent of the hand when people write. This kind of activity is used in art and is called automatic drawing.(sorry for my english- it is not my nativ tonque, I hope you are not offended!)
It’s quite an amazing side-line mystery. Voynich being the producer, seems most plausible, but the poverty of holding the script and producing nothing makes this possibility seem less than likely… as material gain would had been the likely aim.
The young Leonardo is actually something I would understand as a good explanation. Leonardo into adulthood used secured scripts. But the secured scripts were less complex and this would imply the young artist was to develop into visual art and to demise linguistically in time. Which just doesn’t seem likely.
Whatever the truth of the script is, it is a nice diversion time to time to admire with its beauty and even the beauty of its script. Reminds me so much of the art of the “art and crafts” movement of the late 19th century. Also a bit of a rustic idealist elegance that the Pre-Raphaelites would endorse.
I subscribe to the fantasy book theory. The book is not written in any language, extant or extinct, but the text is gibberish based on certain patterns, variations and repetitions, which also explains why there are no corrections of any kind.
Who actually executed the manuscript, we may never know, and maybe it doesn't even matter in the end. More important question for me is who commissioned the volume. And my prime suspect is Lodovico Sforza, also known as Il Moro, the Duke of Milan (1452-1508). He was known to be a collector of things beautiful, rare and bizarre. Like many of his contemporaries of princely rank, he would have loved to own at least one Grimoire, as these kinds of books were known. The manuscript was probably a vanity project of his. And he most likely wanted to flaunt it as soon as possible, which would explain the poor quality of the illustrations, which are drawn clumsily, as if in a hurry. That is in stark contrast with the prime quality vellum and top-of-the-range paints used - money was clearly no object for the rich and powerful Duke.
Why Lodovico? Among all the cryptic and obscure images in the manuscript there is a tiny depiction of a fortress, unmistakably of 15th century Italian design, looking a lot like the Castello Sfozesco, the Ducal seat and power base of the Sforzas of Milan. ciphermysteries.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2017/04/voynich-castle-with-swallowtail-merlons.jpg
ciphermysteries.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2012/05/Castello-Sforzesco-And-Duomo2.jpg
@Elizabeth Frantes What's your point?
Thank you for taking up this subject, actually I realise this video is a year and a half old. Opps.
For my opinion on the Voynich manuscript I believe it is a hoax. I think Voynich did intentionally create the manuscript himself, but I would also think that he intentionally combine pages from a genuine old manuscript or two or three books and try and make a bigger manuscript and then combine his own velum creations of text. In doing so to attempt to create a more valuable old medieval manuscript and potentially make more money. I think Voynich is a shady character and he had the capabilities and time to create the hoax.
Wow, you are really good at being concise about such an enormous subject.
VERY much enjoyed this, Dr. Kat!
I've only recently discovered your channel, and I'm absolutely loving it! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and enthusiasm with the world. I agree wholeheartedly that the one thing we learn for sure from the study of arcane objects is a little bit more about the people doing the research 😉 It must be easy to project one's ideas when there is so little known about an object; easy to become obsessed when there are no answers, only more questions.
How fascinating!
Fascinating! On the point about the possibility of the child Leonardo making such a thing, I could certainly see that; I was that sort of kid myself. In considering the question, I do hope the decoders remembered that he was left handed and often wrote his notes backwards.
I think the idea of it being like a mirror reflecting your own mind back at you is very profound .I can see how anyone looking at it is going to see it from a perspective dictated by their own desires ,or at least begin trying to decipher it with a certain bias in one direction or another .I think that's just how the human mind works when faced with something so very ambiguous .Maybe that's the point ,perhaps there is no definitive truth or explanation to it ,only the ones we choose to give it .Whatever the case ,it's certainly fascinating .
Hello Kat. I just discovered your channel and this is my third vid in a row. I love your channel. Thank you so much.
I love history and am so glad I found your channel! Your research on the Voynich manuscript is so fascinating, yet slightly infuriating, as I don't think we'll ever really know it's true providence or meaning. The possibilities you presented are interesting to consider! Thank you for your time and diligence in researching these topics!
There is a fiction series that jumps back in time and explores the time period and mentions the Voinich and the persons mentioned. It is the All Souls trilogy - first book is a Discovery of Witches. I would love to see a RUclips with Dr. Kat and author Professor Deborah Harkness.
thank you for all the work you put into your videos. they are always amazing
I love this video!!!! I recently got interested into this
Thank you Dr. Kat. My life is now complete!
Happy to be of assistance! 😉
I love history . Just stumbled on to your videos a couple of weeks ago. I have learned a lot more than I did in school. Thank you. I have never heard of this manuscript. Though it sparks a slight curiosity, there is plenty of other sound historical stories to explore besides this one. Thank you your open-ended commentary and factual information especially the comparison to Narcissus
This video is awesome. I am very impressed with your presentation and your systematic review
This was superb, Dr Kat! Great research and layout of all the creation options. Loved how you did it, as opposed to trying to put this square peg into a round hole like so many others. Brava. 🌺🌸
Hi dr. Kat! One of the most wonderful and complete analysis of this object, that could be just a joke, or a fraude. It is anyway charming! Thank you so much!
Hello, loving your series. On this one, I have seen another youtube item in which a turkish man and his sons address this manuscript and seem to have had success in decoding it, they assess it is written in a turkic language, they have decoded sections of it and are to publish a book on it, sadly written in turkish.
Theyve been working on this for many decades.
Thank you for the info!!! I also find the manuscript to be a delightful puzzle.... I'm inclined to think that it's not a hoax, but possible like silphium the contents have been lost to time.
My favorite joke theory is that it's an early D&D corebook for medieval tabletop gaming :)
@Elizabeth Frantes so Roman records mentioning jesus isn't proof?
I have had great success with translations of the VM into Serbo-Croatian. The Ardic family of Calgary in March, 2018, had good work from Old Turkic. I apply Croatian Glagolitic cursive to the writing and I have an idea it was influenced by Old Turkic.
Great job. Although you didn't cover any information or ideas that I hadn't seen or heard before, you have a way of laying out the important aspects of everything relating to the Voynich Manuscript in a neat and interesting manner. Especially useful for those new to this incredible curiosity. Kudos.
I just adore your channel. I am an American with a love of English history and literature. You are always so concise with your evaluations, it was charming to see your slight consternation. I would sit in a university class of your anytime.
Thank you Dr Kat. I had never heard about this before. It is certainly curious, but rather expensive and time consuming just for a joke. Strikes me it might be something to do with the “creation of magic spells”.
I would love to hear your take on the cypher code of Gentleman Jack, the crossdressing landowning woman from the early 1800s. I just looked it up, her name is Anne Lister, the Gentleman Jack tv show is based on.
I watched a video on You Tube about Anne Lister some time ago. A fascinating figure.
Your discussion is better than most documentaries on the subject.
I've always wondered about the mental illness aspect of this, that it meant something to a brilliant person with schizophrenia, but is indecipherable to us.
The only difficulty with that, is that it isn't written by just one person.
I liked that very much. Have watched lots of videos about the book, but here I have found a summery of everything we know for sure and most of the assumptions about the book in short and clear words and very pleasant manner of speech. I feel well informed and not indoctrinated, well done.
Forgive my haste in writing my previous comment. I tend to comment half way through your videos as I cannot suppress my questions/ thoughts on the matters at hand. Love your work!
I love the concept of this video. This is such an interesting topic and I had no idea it even existed! The whimsical part of me hopes it could be the work of a young Leonardo da Vinci, but the rest of me would say it’s most likely not. I just love your videos on unique historical topics like this!!
I've seen it at Yale's Beinecke Library. I was researching a rare book by L. Frank Baum on window dressing.
I like this video, thanks for making it! I thought it was well produced and you have a good style.
As for the manuscript: it's been deeply interesting to me ever since I discovered it a year or two ago. I think you listed the main theories, so I'll go ahead and tell you what I think is most plausible!
Firstly, as you mention in the video, this is something that took a lot of time and effort to make. There's a lot of precise writing and full-color drawings. This leads me to believe that it is unlikely someone did this as a hoax/forgery, but let me explain. If the person who made it was in need of money, it is unlikely that they would spend countless hours on what would essentially be a gamble (i.e. hoping to sell the forgery for a lot of money). Moreover, I don't think they would have the resources nor the talent to do something like this. So I don't think it would be a lower class person. I also don't think it would be a higher class person because there would surely be easier ways to make money than this, right? They would have the time, but not the motivation. That leaves middle class people, which is probably most likely (in the forgery/hoax theory). They would have both time and motivation.
Still, I think I lean more towards it being the result of a mentally unstable person, or possibly a legitimate text in an unknown language/script (perhaps the most tempting theory!). The strange pictures suggest to me that the former theory is a good bet. The plants and stuff just look weird and not accurate representations of the world. If it was someone trying to invent a script for their culture and language, it seems strange to me that they would do something like that, but it's certainly possible. Perhaps it was a bilingual individual who had knowledge of a romance language, and maybe was even trained within a more developed culture and then brought their knowledge back home.
I don't know what the answer is and I worry I never will. It's such a fascinating object and whenever I look at it I feel as though the author is trying to tell me something. Clearly, they're trying to communicate something, but I just don't have the key and it saddens me to think we'll never unlock that enigma.
Thank you for watching and commenting; I am glad you enjoyed the video.
I think your theory is very plausible too. I confess that I oscillate between it being a symptom of mental illness and a hoax or joke. After all, it is not unheard of for those with criminality or practical joking in mind to go to some exorbitant expense and effort to bring their plans to fruition.
It is such a rabbit hole to fall down - I can see how it can become an obsession. So much so that, if I believed that cursed objects were a thing that could exist, I could be easily convinced that the Voynich is just such an object!
@@ReadingthePast Thank you for the nice reply!
I like your point about how sometimes people go to great lengths for jokes/hoaxes because they get pleasure from it. As an example, maybe something like the Dreadnought hoax illustrates this.
I hadn't really taken that into consideration until now, so thank you for bringing that to my attention. Unfortunately, I'm even more uncertain and confused than ever before!
It definitely can become an obsession. There are many fringe amateur researches who will often announce that they've solved the cypher. You probably came across them in your research for this episode. The more abysmal of these theories, in my opinion, was by Professor Greg Kondrak. I won't go into it, but it felt almost insulting to read what his method was.
It is very complex and confusing; I must say that I found some peace in the idea that it acts as a mirror reflecting the researcher's own proclivities and experiences. We may learn little about the Voynich from those who claim to have cracked it, but we certainly get an unrivalled insight into that person and their psyche. It's not what we went looking for but can still be rewarding (perhaps that's just for me though)!
@@ReadingthePast I might not be as educated as many who watch your videos, but I was thinking that if indeed we look at it as a mirror reflecting the researchers own proclivities, then how will we ever know if a translation is accurate? Couldn't a plausible "translation" be made to support the person's own leanings? These papers are intriguing and definitely food for thought!
As someone who works in a library, I can say that some of our patrons may have mental issues but the things they focus on can be incredibly detailed and complicated and they take it very seriously. And the stuff only makes sense in thir head.
Bravo, bravo, bravo! Love your analysis and point of view, especially about spending a life trying to decode something one is not sure of its authenticity.
I just found this video going through your other videos and I am excited to see your take on this. I have been fascinated by the manuscript and the theories that surrounds it.
Edit: I always thought that somebody found alot of vellum and tried to make a medieval manuscript, or that it was the mental ramblings of someone who had far too much time, money, and a bit looney.
Basically the manuscript is snake oil. A very pretty, very old, and fun snake oil
It's written in Turkic (archaic Turkish), and is a gynocologic pharmacopia. Solved some time ago. Probably accumulated knowledge of generations of midwives, originally verbal, until transcribed.
I can't claim to be an expert, but I did study Latin, Greek, paleography, and incuabula way back in the day.... What jumps out to me is the absence of any corrections or amendations in the text. Granted that it would be important to know if the text is all written in the same hand, when combined with all the other points you bring up about Voynich himself, I lean toward the theory that it is his own creation, probably worked on for years, a bibliophile's fantasy. One might compare it to the "mockumentary" of our own time: The Wreck of the Unbelievable.
I’ve been fascinated with this piece since it was mentioned in a novel on witches, time travel and other fanciful things that I stumbled on when I was younger.
A Dicovery of Witches ROCKS.
@@imaginempress3408 Sure does! I need to go back and re-read
Read it multiple times, along with book 2.
Always fascinated by secret codes since I was a kid!
reading about Voynich on wiki, I suspect he composed the manuscript himself. He had studied chemistry, and if he was visiting libraries in various countries, he would have gained access to vellum, either in the form of old letters, which he scraped clean, or blank vellum. I suspect this was just a forgery made to lure someone into parting with a lot of money.
This manuscript has been said to have been recently solved. I watched one documentary last year about the man who recognized the rare/ancient language and is still presently translating it. It’s on RUclips. In addition, there are articles. All you have to do is google the translator or ask Siri who solved it. Unfortunately, I do not remember the man’s name/country but the truth about this is “out there.” My own interest is limited, although I would love to see a copy of the entire manuscript. What an exquisite piece of work!
I figure it is either Edward Kelley, John Dee, or one of their competitors in Austria. Alchemists have a bad habit of putting things into code to hide their secrets. Some of it defies codebreaking - who due to mercury poisoning turn them mad / psychotropic. I tried to break an alchemist's code and it defied me.
Leonardo da Vinci was such a phenomenal talent that even if he started the manuscript as a child would somewhere towards the end had shown much improvement. And there is none.
So, I don’t think it’s the famed artist/inventor.
I’d say it looked more like a Hieronymus Bosch as a young child.
Not sure young children had access to such valuable materials at that time.
As I’m watching this, a quick Google search brought me to an article in which a German Egyptologist posits that the language is actually a medieval Semitic language, i.e. Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic. This is an interesting theory to me. Does anyone know if the text has been read as such? Back to front and right to left? Also, maybe it’s mirror writing.
This has interested me for a long time and I think it's a special book I would love to own. I knew you were going to mention the Zodiac killer:):) He still has us guessing who the heck he was or is:) Great video in these Corona times where I have to stay at home all the time and have only been going out about 10 times in 6 months. I am lucky to have a ton of interests so I don't get depressed or insane and videos like yours really help. Thank you!!
The task force known as the Case Breakers told Fox News that the group has identified the killer as Gary Francis Poste, who died in 2018.
@@merryannebrown This is what I really love about RUclips, that you can write something and after a while even sometimes a long while there will be someone with an answer. Thank you!!
Completely off topic, but you are just stunning. As always fantastic work.
Here comes my speculative ( based on the illustrations): 1. It is first and foremost a botanical material; 2. I suggest that it contains the observations of someone or some people responsible for a castle garden (or a garden in castle like place exemplo a monastery); 3. The circles are related to different kinds of plants or other vegetals in relation to different seasons and periods of the year; 4. Many of those "stars " may actually refer to plants; 5. Some images refer to irrigation systems; 6. Some other to recreation pools in this huge medieval garden; 7. Anybody who has visited medieval gardens in Europe is familiar with illustrative sculptures and building structures telling "stories", fantasies of different kinds, that is what can be seen in some of the pictures; 8. As regarding to the written language, I see similarities with the handwritten Greek alphabet here and there. Let us suppose this work is done by medieval clerical, they normally knew Greek, Hebrew and of course Latin. Perhaps the text is a mixture of these three elements. What do you think?!
I do want to suggest caution when it comes to suggesting that a cypher not being breakable by AI is evidence of it not being real language (i.e. someone just writing "random" stuff on a page). AI isn't something that springs full-formed out of the air, it has to be coded. At some point, a person has to feed in information about what the parameters are, how some of them should be coded, what contextual material is relevant, etc.
If the information given to the program is wrong, or just insufficient to the task... it won't be able to break the code. That doesn't mean there isn't meaning there, or even that it couldn't be broken under other circumstances.
For example: one of the key pieces of information that made it possible to decipher Linear B text was that the tablets were from different archaeological sites; the fact that certain words only appeared on certain clusters of tablets clued the decipherer in that these were place names; this let him start to match the symbols of the text to actual sounds, it was a huge break through. Now... what if an AI is trying to solve the same puzzle, but it hasn't occurred to the programmer to input any information about the physical location where each tablet was found? It may still be possible for it to solve the problem, but that particular avenue is not available to it: the information is missing, and neither the AI or the programmer even *realize* something is missing.
And that's before you even get in to two of the major issues in text decipherment: 1) amount of text - if you don't have enough material, too bad! and 2) language used - orthographic systems have only ever been deciphered when the language they are written in is a known language (or at least very closely related to a known language), if the language used is now extinct, it's likely to be impossible to decipher it (at least with current parameters and understanding).
This is a topic that has also been of interest to me. I believe it has been mostly translated. The Archimedes Codex B is of much greater importance to me. (And some others)
As the text was briefly on the screen, it seemed to me that there are quite a few repeated "words" as well as repeated "letters' common in many of the other words.
It seems to be just made up.
The interesting thing is that it seems to have been written by 3 people. And analysis shows that it was written fluently, not made up as they went. It really must be the most mysterious book ever written.
I have just seen this video and it’s the first time I’ve ever heard of this book/ manuscript… thank you Dr. Kat …yet it is so familiar to me…. almost as though I lived in the times it was written and somehow was associated with it ? … yet that sounds egotistical to write … I don’t mean it to be 🥺yet I understand that’s it’s an explanation of how souls incarnate into certain chosen women at certain galactic times and that also certain foods are seeded at the same time for the benefit of the new incoming souls … through the water system, where all life is created 🌞The sun and neighbouring planets change our elemental structures here creating evolution and so new plants are designed for the continuing design of the dna therefore life, through the woman, in which all is born from. The formula of the seeds is microscopic just as what is occurring in our bone marrow and is to be observed with consideration with what we consume… yes for health but also for enhancing the soul while here on its journey… the paint used in the illustrations came from the authors back yard and was from some of the plants that are drawn… also I see that some drawings reveal the appearance of a weed but represent that weeds hold more medicinal/ transformative ingredients than we have discovered yet as they treat not just the physical but also the mind, emotion and the spiritual holistically. The little symbol ➿represents the time when the soul incarnates through the woman’s electro- magnetic reproduction system and the maps need to be placed one on top of another to indicate when these beings were born. You can photocopy them on trace paper and put on a light box today… as you will see the age of Pisces .. the time when those plant seeds came here, as plants change over time too 🌲in another age we will have a whole new eco system again… along with a new soul matrix system … I love the book and will look into it further now with research but am afraid that it might contaminate my instincts and knowing of it … as like the Bible, it’s designed for the perception of each reader therefore each individual soul evolution 🙏🏼✨🌱🌿Thank you
Nice video and viewpoints. I think it is a piece of art. Simply just a piece of art. It does exactly what great art does. Making the observers asking questions. Brilliant! I don’t think it something else. Not real text and not drawings of real things. It has no meaning or higher purpose. It is just a magnificent piece of art. It this perspective it make’s totally sense to me. Artist can be funny little devils sometimes.
Voynich sourcing blank vellum and researching medieval ink seems to be a very telling bit of evidence, pointing towards a forgery created circa 1913. The only thing is, would a forger in 1913 have any reason to look for extremely old blank vellum? It isn't as if he would know that it could be Carbon-14 dated at some time in the future. Also, how difficult would it be to find blank vellum sheets that are hundreds of years old? Is there any precedent for that?
Rudolph II's reputation as a collector of the unique, the peculiar and the obscure marks him as a potential owner of the Voyenich. This is a ruler who lived by the Horoscope...no one, regardless of rank, was allowed access to Rudolph without first having his horoscope cast. Rudolph also famously had his own horoscope cast by no less a personage than NOSTRADAMUS.
Disappointed when NOSTRADAMUS failed to predict Eternity as Rudolph's lifespan, the ruler changed his birthday and therefore his zodiac sign from Cancer to that of Taurus.
Rudolph also accumulated alchemists who were told to search for the Philosopher's stone "Peculiar" doesn't quite
cover Rudolph II.
What if the manuscript was actually commissioned by someone who wanted to create a manuscript that was impossible to read but they (let's face it, considering the time it is likely to be a 'he') alone could pretend to read and understand when showing it to someone but no one else would stand a chance because, well, it isn't actually actually a language etc. Thus managing to give the owner a certain air if incredible intelligence and learning amongst his friends and peers.
Consequently it covers some conventions like botany, physiognomy and recipes/herbalism, popular for centuries ... But is fantastical in all other ways.
Due to its age the actual original creators are lost, the original owner may never have given away the secret - so now we're left with a hoax art piece and are trying to interpret it as a clever secret manuscript!
Back in those days an alphabet was a luxury. From city-state to city-state, district to district, duchy to duchy, writing systems varied. Some of those writing systems were more phonemic than alphabetic and some were transitioning.
I have had great success working from Croatian Glagolitic cursive which I think was influenced by Old Turkic. Considering the difficulties in systems, I once spent half a night going through old tables, considering 36 ways to write /b/, in hopes I could find a workable /b/ in the VM. I eventually did.
Whoever wrote the VM was very knowledgeable of the system and most researchers are fairly certain more than one person wrote the text. So there was a group of people who were fluent with the writing system and language.
Like some previous commenters, my impression the first time I saw the VM was that it was created by a person with schizophrenia or a similar affliction possibly caused by deliberate or occupational poisoning.
There have been documented cases of mentally ill people creating a surrealistic world in their homes, with every wall covered with illustrations and text. I imagined that the author may have been a knowledgeable alchemist or doctor that was recording their hallucinatory interpretations. Recently, I was very surprised while watching an interesting lecture on RUclips by a Paleographer, (Professor Lisa Fagin Davis), who claimed that she discovered that the VM was written by at least 4 different hands! I am a bit skeptical of her claim, but she is an expert and I am not even a rudimentary amateur. (I just didn't find her examples very convincing.) If she is right, I could also imagine that Wilfred Voynich himself, perhaps with the help of his wife and secretary, could have produced it. Everything that I have read about him does raise suspicions, as well as Dr. Kat's comments about his sketchy background. Perhaps he discovered not only a cache of 15th century vellum and pigments, but also the illustrations, and then embellished them with the "magical" text. However, if that were the case, he probably would have produced a few bits of possible decipherments at some point in order to entice some potential buyers.
I read an article a while back, pages from other books (vellum & parchment) had the original text scraped off and reused for new books. Have the pages been X-Rayed to see if there are traces of lettering?
My opinion is that the Voynich manuscript is a document that was channeled by someone in communication with off planet beings. The language in it is an intergalactic language not currently understood.
Have you done a video on the Dial Painters?
I have done a lot of work on the VM. To me the writing is not that mysterious and I have had fantastic translations applying Croatian Glagolitic cursive. That could be a key since there is evidence there is Old Turkic influence in the writing and language. It appears to me that Old Turkic could have influenced Croatian Glagolitic cursive which is a very different thing from basic glagolitic.
The language I have found is Serbo-Croatian.
The Ardic family of Calgary produced some interesting translations in March 2018, using an Old Turkic system.
A problem their work presented and my work also finds, is the possibility that the VM contains New World plants not known in the Old World until Spaniards brought them back circa 1500 CE. The Ardics translated a whole page on sunflowers, 'helianthus', known only to the new world. Using their system and a bit of my own I COULD say the first word on that page is "aycicegi" or 'moonflower' in Turkic which is the word for sunflower when sunflowers got to the Old World.
Some of the naked lady sequences, shown with apparent plumbing, mist, rainbows, etc. seem to deal with evapouration and therapeutic bathing. There seem to be tales of good and bad. Not good and evil but good and not so good.
I had a tremendous breakthrough around the New Year, 2020. I SO looked forward to the next day when I could expand on this finding. Unfortunately I have chronic, severe migraine and woke the next day feeling like an axe had been driven into my skull. Some of us here in the western US think we may have had COVID around that time. (I wrote an article about that.) I had mild respiratory symptoms but migraine that would not stop for weeks. I will never be free of these terrible headaches and I feel I may never be able to return to the VM. I barely have enough time between attacks to take care of myself and I may need to learn to do nothing but have migraine. It destroyed my mother and will get me too. Thankfully I never had children.
I worked out all of my great translations through etymology, going back to proto-Slavic and proto-Turkic if necessary. One translation surprised me very much and it was late at night so I did not work out the words. I am a writer and this is better than anything I could invent, but without intense etymology, this sentence must be suspect. I use it as my 'signature' on some sites and it is especially pertinent now:
"The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague."
I have not heard this theory before. The manuscript's presumed origins in Eastern Europe help support this idea.
This manuscript has had me fascinated for years, hoping someone will be able to figure it out. I think the most likely culprit is John Dee, but that’s just my personal opinion of Dee from everything he was interested in and it wouldn’t be against his morals to create such a book with the intent of either hiding the info from the Inquisition or to dupe a buyer. It’s definitely a conundrum!
When I was in high school, I would write all my notes in French so no one (in my sphere) could read it and understand it. One blip was when I had to hand in my notes for a particular class and my teacher asked me why I did that.
It seems like it's a private journal, diary.
DiVinci was too poor as a young boy to get the type of materials that you have stated for this book
I wondered about that as well.
There is also a Beale Cipher of which only one of three documents has been decoded. (Beale Street is also a famous (and infamous) tourist location in my city).
Are you referring to the Beale cypher that leads to treasure?
Dale Stadler how do you know it leads to treasure?
Doug R. Alledegly.
Do you think it could be a letter cipher where there was a written letter (probably lost) used to decide what letter each corresponds to? I just read a book where a girls father wrote a letter to her betrothed and she had to use his letter to cipher the code to write letters back to him when she was spying on the queen.
I've always been fascinated by the brass plate on the floor of Dunblane church. It commemorates the poisoning of three sisters in 1501. I'd like to understand the background of this and what we now know about it.
I just wonder if in Europe, stockpiles of old vellum can be purchased, smuggled, or stolen from monastarys and or libraries?
Given that the velum could also have been sourced from other gathered documents...fascinating.
Honestly, do you really believe that such a large quantity of 500 year old matching parchment would be untouched during many wars and time?!
Please note, that gathering vellum from different sources would have led to inconsistencies in carbon dating.
Would you do a video on Edward Kelly?
That was rather bold of you to say about the enochian language considering there is so many similar roots(first and foremost Hebrew is known as the language Adam attempted to reassemble after being kicked out of the garden, it’s also known as adamic) there is also the passing through the river and all the other magical languages which may look similar in symbol but the enochian system is so beyond a human creation. I truly suggest you look at Dan Winter(PhD in electrical engineering)and the Late Vincent Bridges(golden dawn) work on Dee and Kelly. Sorry if I’m not the best at writing here on yt but this wasn’t any attack at your character but merely as someone who has practiced various things see did it’s quite hard to hear a lot of claims you could read his diaries 007.
Is there a receipt of purchase or other record detailing the change of ownership from the Biblicum in 1912?
The Biblicum was a Jesuit School of Sacred Scripture founded in 1909. The previous ownership of the manuscript was not the Collegium Romana as purported by Brumbaugh (The World's Most Mysterious Manuscript 1978) as the college was disbanded after The Capture of Rome in 1870.
It is extremely unlikely that the Jesuits would consent to the sale of any works in their possession, particularly a hitherto undeciphered 'mystery' manuscript passing out of the hands of the Society of Jesus, a book from the collection of Athanasius Kircher, one their great luminaries, would certainly be classified as a treasure of the Order and not an item for sale.
Are there any Jesuits out there who could shed some light on this?
I fully agree with your observations: why ever would the Jesuits of Mondragone relinquish this text to Voynich? Something rotten in Denmark!
I'm in the belief that this manuscript was written at a time that alchemists were being pushed into the fray and the knowledge became a taboo. So this could be a coded beginners guide to the alchemical arts because it touches on the key aspects of the teachings without going to much into each subject(astronomy, biological, spiritual, material, and recipes for simple concoctions. Alchemists and scholars of that time could have the knowledge and resources to make the manuscript, and the connections to secret societies to divulge the key to deciphering it without exposing themselves to the Catholic church.
A young Davinci strikes me as very plausible. Perhaps vellum was available from makers or sellers who had an old supply, not being sold due to the expense. I can't see anyone spending that kind of money on nonsense. Unless it was wealthy off-balanced person, lol. I just love you! You've become my addiction for deep thought!❤
Well looking at that one page I notice no articles per say like 'a or the' - and those you can leave out from English for example just in a list according to grammar. But obviously there is no telling, what short of language and code it is. Finnish language for example does not have articles. And those funny loops made me instantly think about something called Hannunvaakuna (partially) - but generally it is a square with loops at each corner and was used to 'shield from evil or bad luck' - obviously nothing to do with the book. It just is that the book repeats those top loops a lot at least on that page. That said, I won't suggest it has anything to do with our language which was not even written before some time 1500s. Just - it kinda makes a point how much food for imagination some mystery like that one can certainly offer. It is curious book for certain. And sure like anyone, I'd enjoy to see someone figure it out, even if it may not have any huge revelations within - just could perhaps give another a view into how people used to think, or at least one person did, way back when. That is if the thing wasn't created just to fool someone either more recently or perhaps even earlier.
Aliens, Atlantis & Angels - doesn't matter what you're talking about, one or more of the 3 "A's" is always going to be lurking around waiting for an opportunity...my favorite is the Alien-Angels-of-Atlantis (why stick with one when you can "go the lot")!...
I wonder if anyone ever did a poisson analysis of the manuscript, which is a means of statistically determining the randomness of something. Codebreakers use it to weed out nonsense messages.
I had a look at some pages and noticed many words appear multiple times, lots more than would be expected, SAW is very common, and that a disproportionate amount of words end in either W or G, and there does not seem to be that many different letters
Helloooo! It was solved in 2018 I thought...two Turkish guys? An engineer and his son I believe. I thought for ages it was The Gentle Language of the Tartars/Tartarians. I have an old manuscript on my computer somewhere...
Might it have been an elaborate, obsessive act of revenge by one academic against another, in order to dupe the rival? If revenge is a dish best served cold, a manuscript like this would certainly fit the description!
This is another historic puzzle/mystery I usually read anything I see concerning it. I cannot remember where I read this, and it could be from several different sources. It's definitely NOT my theory. Someone ran the text through a computer program which could not name a language but which did say parts of the manuscript were consistent with other parts of the manuscript. It also seemed to consistently follow plausible syntaxes and sentence construction. Additionally it bore some resemblance to an old Turkik language. Some words run together without spacing. Some sentences run together without punctuation. Some terms seem to be abbreviated, again without spacing or punctuation. Some of the plant drawings resemble plants from Eastern Europe or Asia and other plant diagrams could be plants which have become extinct or which have naturalized into plants today which are too different from earlier plants so we no longer can identify the parent species from our current "offspring plants". I realize that's a lot of "some" "could be" "possibly" "resemble" and other modifiers that no court in the land would accept the testimony as anything near accurate! It was some time ago I read the above. I don't remember where I read it. I was in the hospital/nursing home for 8 months in 2021 for a series of surgeries. I was septic for 2 weeks, 8 days of which I didn't know where I was nor recognize my children. I was aware something was happening, but not what. Talk about scary! In pain, unable to move, people telling me I didn't know what I was talking about. The remainder of those months I was kept pretty out of it on strong pain relievers. Perhaps my memory is becoming faulty due to my age (73)? NAW, that couldn't be it, ya think?! (US slang) Keep well. Stay safe.
You, mentioning that the Voynich MS bore a resemblance to the Dee & Kelly Enochian script i had to wonder; Could this suggest that although the 'hand' that wrote these manuscripts were different people, (possibly living in different centuries) however the 'source' behind compelling the writing of both is the same; some form of supernatural, external intelligence selectively interfacing with, & passing knowledge thru to humans...?)
According to Dee and Kelley the esoteric knowledge came from angels including Nalvage and Illemese
. They spoke Enochian. If you believe that you are probably Rudolph II, at least a reincarnation.
Have you seen where some Turkish scholars claim to have deciphered the MS.? There seems to be quite a lot of controversy, and they are writing books about it, so I am not sure if they are doing it as a money making thing or if they really have actually identified the author. Unfortunately (not trying to be mean) they have very heavy accents when they speak English so I have trouble understanding what they are saying, but I have a damaged brain. I think you might be able to understand them, however. I will have to review the material a few times before I get a better idea of what they are actually saying. It's just called Voynich Manuscript Research, you will find it if you search here on You Tube. Of course the entire thing fascinates me, two things I adore, language and mysteries. When I was in high school they gave these tests called the ASFAB that tested for aptitude for military fields, I scored quite high in coding aptitude. Also scored quite high in mechanical work! rofl My father was what they called a shade tree mechanic and I was his shadow so I knew how to fix vehicles. I unfortunately had too many health problems to qualify for military service. My father was career Army and I wanted to follow in his footsteps. He was quite instrumental in helping to develop vacuum sealing technology for the MRE meals, he was so amazing at what he did that when he retired some company in Chicago wanted him to work for them so badly they were willing to fly him weekly between there and our home state of Georgia. He was a homebody, however. Once he retired he didn't want to travel any longer. He could build anything, fix anything and was an inventor. Considered himself a moron. Why? Because he was never able to build a perpetual motion machine... holy cow what a ramble! Sorry! Anyway I hope you find the information about the Turkish gentlemen helpful.... God bless!