I'm a freelance writer and the advice here applies to all freelance work. Sometimes you underestimate the job's complexity and the time it will take and overestimate your own abilities, and (as Adam said) you just have to eat it. Other times, you run into a client who's such an obvious pain in the ass that you know working with them is going to be an absolute nightmare. No matter how hungry you are, don't take those jobs. Some people's money is too expensive.
"Some peoples money is too expensive" is such a good phrase. It also applies for jobs- i've had misfortune of working for both a toxic workplace and good workplace, that turned to toxic. My advice is, that if you encounter such jobs (trust me, you know it when you encounter them or turn into these), the moment you realise it, talk to your boss or bosses and if they give you the runaround or are not keen on answering, basically delaying every reply, its not worth it.
i basically agree with Adam.. but I think it would not be improper, once the contractor realized that the bid was too low for the work, to be able to tell the person, so they know, and even if you will still complete the job, they at least know your situation. They might still offer or renegotiate a price as a way to be fair. but if not, then, of course, they can hold you to the contracted price and other terms, as you can with them I also disagree with Adam on another point. (it may be that I am not understanding what he meant by some of his wording). He spoke of negotiating with a client in the beginning. And it is at this stage where most of the clarifying takes place.. not after the job has started. So a client that appears to be obsessed with details may actually be making sure that everything is understood and agreed upon to the correct understanding of all parties in the contract. And of course, putting those things down in written form, and signed off on them by all parties. And in case there is any trouble, the contract and notes can be referred to for clarification, as memories fade with time.
I'm a consulting engineer and one of the most important things I've learned is to put EVERYTHING into a written contract. When will the job start, when will it be delivered, when will you be paid, HOW will you be paid. Do you need something from the client in order for you to finish your work? Put it in writing and clearly state when they will need to provide it. Scope creep is a common occurrence in my industry and I will often have to go back to clients and ask for more money because of changes they've requested. Having the original parameters of the contract clearly written makes it easy to show how things have changed, why it requires more effort, and why it costs more money. "You asked for X, I priced for X, you're now asking for Y, here's the price for Y."
Not to mention that more often than not clients will try to get discounts and/or extra work with any excuse, having everything on writing gives less room for excuses.
FYI: Change Orders are very very IMPORTANT. Often you an a client will agree to a scope of the project, but during the implementation the client wants changes (aka mission creep). This is a tactic many clients use to get more out of you than the job is worth. I recommend you have a a signed agreement that states exactly what services (or products ) you will be providing and that any changes that deviate from the original agreement will include extra charges that the client must sign off (get it writing).
It's also possible to include *some* flexibility in the base contract. You just want to stop it getting out of hand. Feature freezes are another way of doing things.
I work for an engineering firm and you are EXACTLY right. We had a customer want changes for free. No. Engineers are not cheap or free to have doing new designs hourly
I think there’s an allowable amount (of time or money) that should be afforded for clients or creators to tweak aspects of the project. The creative process is always a journey into the unknown, and sometimes it has to take shape in order to know what shape it ought become. Clients typically give deadlines that actually have wiggle room, and creators give bids that actually allow a certain percentage of “force majeure” and other unknowns.
I doubt this is a malicious thing most clients do on purpose, so I don't know if "tactic" is the right word. I know, as a person who creates things, that for my own projects I often don't realize exactly what is going to be involved in that process, and they often grow in scope beyond my original vision. I also have a tendency to make a thing, look at the """finished""" product, and realize it's lacking something and needs further iteration. Sometimes by this point I notice something absolutely crucial and/or fundamental is missing that *must* be included for the final version to meet my standards. For me, since I just write code, that only really means more of my own time, but if you make physical things then that means more materials you have to source, which drives up costs even more. This is a trap I fall into regularly as the person with the creative vision for my project who should know better because I'm also the one making it, so I can't imagine just how easy it is for clients who aren't directly involved in the building process to not have a complete idea of what the project actually entails. This is a classic example of Hanlon's Razor, and I think it's folly to go into projects under the assumption that clients are trying to screw you on purpose. Definitely prepare for that inevitability, because some clients actually are trying to screw you, and those who aren't doing it on purpose are still perfectly capable of doing it if you don't have the right safety nets in place, but to expect that clients actively want to gouge you only breeds resentment and cynicism. As a creator, the last thing you want is to become jaded.
A colleague of mine worked in the auto industry and once overheard executives joking about what vendors they were going to put out of business that year. Abusing contracted manufacturers is definitely not limited to the entertainment industry.
As someone who worked in the auto parts manufacturing sector, this doesn't surprise me at all. At some point in the 1990's, Ford, GM, etc., decided that if a supplier was making a profit, that was money they left on the table.
That is a bit crazy to me - I’d hoped my company was pretty standard, they constantly emphasize that we can’t succeed without our suppliers succeeding. Trying to destroy suppliers seems absolutely bonkers to me.
@@scifisyko Well, the result of putting the screws to suppliers was a ratcheting down of wages and benefits in the supplier sector. Wages, btw, were never the most significant cost factor in manufacturing, contrary to popular belief. Material costs (steel) and energy costs were well ahead. But wages were, and still are, the #1 "controllable cost" and were the target. That's where the parts suppliers found their "efficiencies". Whether that was by design, or just a happy accident, that was the effect.
A lot of the times the client won't mention a "simple detail" and you will end with more that you can't chew but it's not your fault... I once estimated a software migration in 100 hours, 2.5 times the industry standard rate, to a client that didn't show a single line of code until after we signed the contract, and then realized their app was almost 3 millions lines of code and had to be completely tested to be certified as migrated, took +300 hours, I ended up eating the bill but they paid a great bonus that covered most of it and the next contract we both raised the hourly rate and completely changed estimations as we already were cleared to look at code.
Always charge .25 more than you think it'll cost at the least. I really hope with the strokes going on in Hollywood right now that the studio system will be forced to change so that the people that actually make movies get a fair deal.
I would offer a lesson from home construction contracts. Use your experience, or the experience of others, to estimate the time the job will take. Pad that estimate by 20-40%, charge a per hour that will let you pay all of the people on the job, plus taxes and employment expenses, that will avoid you losing out in that account. Make sure the materials price is either set above current prices at the time of contract signing, or that the client will pay the ACTUAL materials cost. Write in a clause to charge for change orders. My employer gave one free change order if the change was less than 15% of the whole job in hours, but the customer was on the hook for materials. Set up a stepped payment method such that the first payment covers materials and non-employment expenses at a minimum, then other partial payments at major job milestones. In the case of construction, it would be like 30% up front, 30% when the concrete for the foundation was poured and passed inspection, 20% when backfill was complete, and the remainder when the site was left clean. Include a clause that non-payment without cause will result in fees/lien/etc. Have a good lawyer with experience in contract and commercial cases.
I work in IT and frequently have the same issue. Recently I quoted 10 hours for a job that took 40, so when another client came along I quoted 40 hours for the exact same job and haven't heard from them since. I frequently neglect to include quote prep time, writing up essay-sized emails with information about the job, meetings and phone calls with the client etc and of course, when they want 78 things changed after it's been deployed. I now quote "4 additional hours for tweaks and changes after deployment" so if they go beyond that I can keep billing.
While watching this video I felt this feeling of how lucky we are, after all these years after MythBusters, we still have this change of know and learn from you Adam, thanks you so much.
My wife and I have repeated Jamie’s advice of “however the client is going to be going into the job is how they will be going through” multiple times since the first time you told the story. It is now helping us immensely as we transition to a new career. I think it applies to a potential boss/organization who are interviewing with you.
I'm a 2D animator and the industry now is absurd, it's exactly like Adam said. They will pay you a predetermined amount, but then down the line will require changes after changes because directors are incapable of abstracting ideas and they want you to animate it first, so they can see it finalized and only then they go like "hmmm, yeah we need to completely change this thing that I agreed upon when I watched the animatic" and of course they don't want to pay for the redos....... this needs to stop
well, let them hire teams in asia that do the work cheaper. I know that incredible people work in many places; but nagging a supplier will result in "oh sorry, no time for you" and "oh, you need us? next year we have slot! You need in 3 months? So express fee?".
@@z-beeblebrox but have you seen the new flash movie? that was appalling, even the animator came out afterwards saying something along the lines of "they aren't paying me enough to care"
@@jono6379 I generally just don't like this mode of inquiry because it implies that the only time it matters that animators are treated like shit is on bad movies. This is not the case, there are plenty of fantastic movies out there where the animators were treated like shit. If we only focus on the times when the outcome was bad, then we're implicitly saying that it's only wrong to treat people poorly when the content is poorly received, but it's worth it if the content is good.
Adam, the studio you’re speaking of that went bankrupt doing the VFX for Life of Pi was Rhythm and Hues Studios, and it was the last production I worked on before exiting the industry after being at R&H Studio for 15 years. I still recall Oscar’s ceremony when the actors and other people in the audience were laughing at Bill our VFX supervisor accepting his academy award and was chased off the stage just as he was trying to bring to light the horrible way the industry is run. Ironic that they only seem to care about their own plight during these strikes when they didn’t GAF about the VFX industry back then, and still don’t now. VFX bidding has always been a race to the bottom, with the movie studios pitting VFX houses against each other.
@@hovermnWalt was a lighting sup/CG sup while we were there. The last shows we worked on together was Life of Pi and Percy Jackson2. He was great at his job. 🙌🏻
@@hovermn I say it is time for that table to turn. Will take unity, but if all VFX companies join together - you guys can pretty much hold holywood by the balls. What tv shows or films will be made with out you guys, YOU HAVE the power if you unite and all work together to get a better deal. holywood really is just the worse humanity has to offer.
I once charged 50$ for an illustration of a specific car and by the end of it I had worked 12 hours a day for an entire week. This stuff happens to everybody, the important part is learning how to do acurate quoting on your work and also learn what the value of your time is.
I once bid $120 on a project that involved converting a paper blueprint into an AutoCAD file. Looked easy at first, but the thing ended up taking three times as long as I expected to. Fortunately, my client was understanding, and paid me $300 for the job. It still only ended up paying me about $8 per hour (back in the '90s), but it could've been much, much worse.
Well when you create a pretty bad financial situation for you and your gf at the time, right after you moved in with her, it tends to stick in your memory.
Saw the title, half expected the OTHER big mess up story of the low budget movie. Yet wow! I'll never not be amazed at the amount of stories Adam still has in storage.
@@guytech7310He had to build an atm for a friends movie, failed horribly, and wound up having to sit in a room surrounded by the entire crew while they took turns detailing every way he failed them. Said friend also cut said friendship and they have NEVER spoken since. he later turned down a gig for another low budget movie where a kids bedroom got so tired of being filthy that said bedroom pushed itself out of the house and ran away. He stated that he knew he would need a second person to work with on it with him to keep him on task, but the budget wouldn't allow it so he had to decline the job Another failure was a window display for a store that used baseball pitching machines to lightly toss baseballs at a target of some sort but the baseballs REFUSED to fly properly. He spent a ton of time trying to troubleshoot it to no avail and expected to have to refund their money. Instead he client never even found out because they decided last second to do something else. Adam got paid in full and and the client just threw the whole damn thing out. lol Adam later learned on mythbusters that baseballs, when pitched slowly from a machine, behave badly. it would probably require a heavily customized machine to do properly.
Whether its a client, employee, subcontractor, life partner…you often can judge their character on your first interaction. They will NEVER be any better/nicer/considerate/kinder/easier to deal with, than on that first or second interaction. Its all downhill from there, folks. Sense a bit of rudeness, snarkiness, attempt to WAY undercut prices, little to no appreciation of your art…either walk away or quadruple your price to make it worth your time, effort and the heartache you’ll experience dealing with a true a**hole. Been there. Great life lesson.
Yep. When you shake hands on agreement of the job. That exact moment right there is as good as it will ever get with that customer. I've told a customer to come get his car. I'm not loud, hostile or angry. I just say it matter-of-factly with no drama or theatrics. Then thank my lucky stars I was not deeper in the job.
You just described my brother-in-law's 30+ year custom cabinet business. He was always way too nice to tell a difficult client "no thank you" and almost always underestimated the time it would take to complete a job.
My father had a similar business, and instead of saying "no" he would say he didn't have the time to take on more work. Usually, after a couple times those people would get the hint. I did see a situation where someone couldn't take a hint, and the guy went into my father's workshop on a Saturday when he and I were working on something for my mother, and the guy started yelling at him. All 5'4" of my father got in the guy's face, shoved him out of the workshop, and told him that if he didn't leave right away he was leaving in an ambulance. He got the hint after that.
I think the reason for under bidding a job is so you can still get it, if its too much they wont want what your making. Someone asked me to sculpt them 4 figures/ print and paint them, i said $450 cuz it would take me that long and had a price break down. He laughed in my face and never replied because it was to expensive. Like im not going to bust my ass for weeks just for less than $200.
Sure, but unless you're desperate, that's not generally a job worth taking, and if you are desperate enough to take low pay, you would probably be better off spending the time looking for a standard job.
@@kgrfirdjy compromising on quality is a complicated line to walk. I mean: If the customer makes it clear that you work on a background model of a background scene and thus can skimp on the details... okay. But... if the customer has a clear idea and you have clear idea and you can not agree on the price for the level of quality you consider adequate, just don't. It is not worth the stress.
There are always people ignorant of the value and cost of things. You just end up learning to ignore them. Unfortunately online review sites can make these people a major PITA.
I'm retired now but did freelance illustration for many years. Underbidding was always a huge problem for me. This was mostly because I was constantly broke and desperate for money, which is a real death spiral. You need to take whatever you can get just to survive but then you're not getting paid enough and are even more desperate.
After 40 years these clients still get under my radar, I get so mad at myself! Then I have to think "well they made me better and it is a learning curve." And I will never see them again, because they knew they screwed me! Sort of ike when you loan your friend $5 and they don't pay you back, that is a cheap season cause now they won't borrow $100.
Years ago I heard the saying "if you loan a friend $20 and you never see them again it was $20 well spent" and it immediately stuck in my head for eternity. And Ive had similar situations happen to me, its just that most of them it was a tool instead of money.
@@mattpace1026 typically an analogy is about an entirely different situation, for the sake of making a point, or forthe sake of making something clear. For example: if you have a blockage in you intestines that has lead to a perforation that requires surgery, your doctor may explain it as if its the plumbing in your house and talk about how "the pipe froze, and now its burst, so the plumber has to cut open the wall and solder in a new piece" Its an analogy BECAUSE its a different situation
ADAM THANK YOU. I'm sending this to my producers after we finish the shoot this weekend. Oh my god man, that last bit you touched on asking others to help across multiple studios has been my life the last week. i feel so seen and validated holy crap thank you Adam
Those are tough when you just start out. You are always worried about getting more work and never want to lose a client, but as you go on you realize there are some clients you never want to work for again anyway.
As a maker and prop person in the movie industry, I'm here just nodding my head up and down as Adam is talking.. I've experienced every single instance he did.. and I've learned a lot as well.
On the contract I always put any additional and/or unforeseen work can result in extra cost and/or a new job work order. Not responsible for damages from storing materials.
I'm not a maker or craft person at all, but this video hit me hard. Even in personal relationships, the little flags you see at the start show themselves even more fully and clearly as the relationship develops. It's not just a business thing- It's a life lesson thing.
I've spent most of my adult life so far simply developing the self-confidence to acknowledge toxic situations for what they are and learning how to walk away. If you find yourself being drained or destroyed by a relationship, job, etc, then there's absolutely no shame in leaving before the situation deteriorates any further.
@@Pellagrah That's why written contracts would be good. We aren't good at getting out of toxic relationships, because we slowly become anestisized to bad behavior and end up living in denial of some sort and that some nebulis future goals or result will have made it all worthwhile, in the meantime we fool ourselves into being victims of another.
@@cynicalrabbit915They are, it’s called a prenup. Except, if the man doesn’t allow it to expire, (or any other way the wife can get out of it) a judge will just throw the prenup out for being “unfair”.
love hearing the war stories, after 30yrs I've got few of my own. A few thoughts are always remember you will be doing the rough R&D before bidding so that you can know if you can do it. When working with a Corp always have the point of contact as high up the food chain as you can get,, typical department heads don't have the final say, and if it's multiple depts involved beware of committees . And don't bid on the promise that after this one the will need many more. If you set the bid a bit high and the delivery time longer than needed They love you when they get it faster and under budget.
"How a client is going into a project is how they are throughout the project". So true. I don't do this kind of work but I do commission artists from time to time when I can afford it and I try very hard to foster a good working relationship with them so that they know they can set boundaries without upsetting me and I can ask progress reports without feeling like I'm being a "is it done yet" client or feeling like I am pushing them to hurry. A simple 2-3 minute chat about what i should expect from the artist, and what they can expect from me as a client in terms of asking questions about progress and staying updated so we both feel okay and satisfied by the end.
As someone who is a similar age to Adam and has run his own studio since his early 20's I watched this with so much empathy. It's 100% on the nail. I've got the T shirt.
Great advice! I used to be an audio engineer and ran into a similar situation as the special effects companies you mention. I would quote a price for the whole job, but then was saddled with change after change from the artists. So I shifted to the cost-plus model. I didn't get as many jobs that way, but at least I got paid what I was worth.
I finally got in a line of work, selling online, where I get paid before I ship. Trying to get money out of people is an absolute nightmare even if things go well. Its really unbelievable how many clients I had who would stand right there, tell me I did a great job, exceeded expectations, then give me a song and dance about my money. Unreal. Even now people try and claw it back more than they should after I shipped. They will say things like 'it died'. Oh really when did it die? Two months ago? Did you water it? Did you know plants need water? No? Well they do.
The sad reality is that you have to build more profit into your prices any way possible even if it means making your product worse. Unfortunate we live in a world where you have to eat the costs whenever a customer changes their mind or is ignorant about how to use the product. At the end of the day that customer writing a bad review is going to hurt your business more than charging higher prices.
Adam, we all go through the early stages of wanting the job and not yet being confident enough to schedule and charge adequately. I went through the same phase (here, on the East Coast - commercials mostly - about 10 years prior to your experiences here). Hard lessons learned, confidence gained, if you survive - which it seems you have done. BTW, GREAT, GREAT work on display on your channel. Very jealous of your set up there . . . love the Sorcerer's Lair you've built there.
As a full time violin maker that has retired from repair or restoration for the most part, every time I get conned into a restoration job by a client I will add 30%+ to the hourly quote for crack repair and varnish work. It always insures that I’m not wasting my time by underpaying myself. Learning that your time is valuable took me years to figure out.
It wasn't PDI, it was Rhythm & Hues that did the VFX for Life of Pi, won the Oscar and went out of business. I was there, it sucked. I'm coming up on 30 years in VFX and R&H is still my favorite place to have worked.
This is some great advice here. As a small building contractor, you learn to get a feeling about a customer. When you get a sense you are dealing with someone that is difficult, it's better to start off small, and see if you can work together and you get paid. Large often scare me not because of the size, but because of the risk. Homeowners are some of the most difficult people to work for because they know nothing about construction, and the job is so personal to them. I have much better success in commercial construction.
As a tooling manufacturer, there are times that we bid on a repair job "T+M, not to exceed $X,XXX" (Time + Material). The "not to exceed" is usually set high enough that we'll break even if everything goes haywire, but the T+M allows the customer to keep the cost at the lowest possible amount that's fair for me as well.
Oh man I remember not being able to think after losing my son, I would be talking to a customer on the phone and just not understand. I felt so bad for them and ashamed of myself for not being able to comprehend complex accounting software that I was trained on and on top of being compassionate. All the while needing to get that 10 on that survey because that's your lively hood. I remember breaking up on the phone and telling my customer I couldn't do it and apologized.
THIS is a GREAT question!! Any maker (being honest) that does commissions will have dealt with this in SOME way! Getting a real professional’s experience and how they dealt with it is priceless advice!! Thanks SO much Adam. I JUST dealt with this and just ate the costs…
The part about how the client will show you who they are in the quoting process and won’t change during the whole process is something I absolutely have to remind myself all the time. I constantly find myself giving someone the benefit of the doubt as the show red flags. I remind myself it’s best to politely turn down the work rather than deal with the headache
That falls into the taking it personal thing in my estimation. You thought there was a personal relationship but to the client it was entirely business. That's just how you also have to look at it, so you don't feel so bad when you feel like you're "not being very nice" to a client. Too bad. Fool me once, shame on me..
It's a persistent issue. Hollywood is mostly a few big players, so they have tremendous negotiating power and can trivially collaborate to screw people over.
Switching to a cost plus model has definitely helped me a lot, especially considering how often things can go in a different way than expected in many jobs.
OMG Adam, your anecdote about the effects industry blew my mind because I never thought there could be another industry as screwed up (billing/quoting) as software development. Your story sounds so familiar, except in software the marketing department tells the customer "Oh yeah, it already does that", then the salesman comes and tells engineering we have x time to develop a new feature that he already sold without asking how long it would take, or if it was even possible.
Knowing when to fire problem customers is a hard earned but invaluable skill. After awhile one can sense who is worth working with/for and who is not. Don’t be desperate for work.
I work in estimating, and sometimes a cost can look absolutely ridiculous on paper. But when the actual work is getting done and you start getting close to the budgeted amount, you'll be happy for adding in escalation factors and scrap/rework
I used to often give clients the choice - You pay $500 flat, or you can pay $100/hour, which will probably be $200-$300. I'll take in the risk of the job being bigger than expected, but that risk has a price. If you want a flat rate, I'm going to quote twice as much as I expect it to take.
When you're bidding for something always remember: COST is determined by the seller. VALUE is determined by the buyer. Always, ALWAYS value your time. When budgeting time for a project, use the Montgomery Scott Method: 1. Take the approximate time you think it will take to do the job. 2. Multiply it by two for unknown and unpredicted events. 3. Then, take the total time and multiply it by two again for the unknowable and unpredictable events.
@@richsackett3423All trades are a value proposition. When the trade is made, ideally there is a net value increase. If not, the trade should not be made.
Everything Adam says there ALSO applies to software development and we call the iterative cost plus model, "AGILE SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT" and there are LOTS of online tools and best practices you can look up that work well for ANY kind of maker. *One of the BEST ways to handle underbidding is to apply your "average estimation error rate" and here's how you calculate that:* For EVERY project, calculate your *PROJECT ESTIMATION ERROR RATE* by comparing what it ACTUALLY cost in time and materials to what you thought it would at the beginning. Average all of your *PROJECT ESTIMATION ERROR RATES* together to determine your *AVERAGE ESTIMATION ERROR RATE* Apply that to every new project bid and then wash rinse repeat. With any luck you should see your estimation errors getting smaller and smaller over time. Hope it helps! Cheers
I've seen other makers say "Charge as much for a job that you would no longer feel disappointed if you didn't get it". It honestly seems like great advice, because it factors in whether a job is particularly cool, or particularly interesting to add to your skills and portfolio, or if it's mundane / short timescale / risky.
I just started taking art commissions and nearly fell into the trap of super-underpricing... Thankfully someone made me realize I was charging WAY too low!
Great video Adam, got me smiling at the end talking about visual effects studios. I had first hand experience of about to Rhythm and Hues in their brand new Kaohsiung Studio in Taiwan, only to be told the Studio had gone under two weeks later. Crazy times but luckily it all worked out.
The cost-plus thing is the whole reason Agile is used so much in IT: small iterations with clearly defined deliverables are much easier to estimate and handle for both sides. If you split up a project into parts that provide value even if you have to hire someone else to finish it, it makes the client much more comfortable with the cost plus thing. It's not always possible but if it is, it helps.
Apparently I'm a dream client. I'm all about the cost-plus model when it makes sense, I'm patient, communicative, pay whatever asked, offer to pay more if things go south, and tip well. And yet I've still had several contractors who in the end didn't do the job as-asked. :\ Here's a pro-tip for contractors: if there's a hurricane outside, go home and come back to do the yard work another day. Don't do half of what was promised because Hurricane. And if a customer offers to pay more when unexpected things pop up, take her up on it. Don't skimp on the job to make up your lost money. Sheesh.
There are as many bad contractors as there are clients. Learning how to smell bad contractors as a client is as important as learning to smell bad clients as a contractor.
Cost plus is a valid contracting form for development if the client has deep pockets. The government uses this with defense contractors while developing new systems. I don't see anyone using this form for production because it puts all the risk on the buyer. I do believe that the initial contract (or bid) should allow for changes requested by the buyer to be costed out additionally to the original bid.
As a one man show of automotive fabrication shop, where work ranges so much in cost and complexity i can't tell you how much i appreciate an extra perspective on this issue. First story really hits home man!
I made some plaques for a ladies horse awards one time. It sounded simple enough, maybe a couple day job, but ended up taking me damn near a month to complete. Not 15 minutes after accepting the job, my shop vac broke. An hour later my planer died running the first board through. The next day my table saw bit the dust. Finally got them shaped right and was trying to finish them, spilled the ENTIRE brand new gallon of shellac, bought more, and used well over a quart trying to get the finish right but it just wasn't working because my shop was so dusty due to the broken shop vac. FINALLY got it looking right and went to screw the metal plates on and the very last screw twisted in half. I managed to get it out after a couple hours of carefully trying and attempted again. The 2nd screw twisted off. But this time it was flush with the surface and also at an angle. I tried to drill it out but the drill bit slipped off the end of the screw and made an oblong hole that stuck out passed the edge of the metal plate making it really visible. I was on the verge of tears at that point. I texted my client and told her what happened and said I could re-shape the plaque and make it look over-all better but I don't think she was really picking up what I was throwing down and said "No its okay, I like them the way they are". I sat there so incredibly stressed out for the next 3 days trying to figure out how the hell I was going to fix this. I ended up painstakingly color matching some epoxy and filling the hole. I also epoxied the metal plate onto the plaque and super glued the head of the screws in place so it looked like it was just screwed down. I had initially quoted her $100 a piece or $200 total for the job and found myself in the hole at least $1000 and a month of labor down the drain. At least she was pretty cool and is now one of my moms very few friends haha
Solid advice Adam. When I was partners in a tree removal / trimming business my partner had a job in que prior to my buying into the company. When we arrived on the job site I saw two Mammoth Sycamore trees that were over 100' tall. I asked him which one was being removed and he said both, I asked him how much did you bid this for and he said $5,000.00 Power lines ran through them and shut down an entire neighborhood, the job should have been bid @ around 15K as it required a crane and 2 weeks of labor with the existing crew. Assessing all the elements of a job including everything that could possibly go wrong are key to bidding it properly.
Great vid, thanks Adam. I have tried to explain this to so many students and young designers. This is unfortunately a lesson that can only be learned by experiencing it.
I've worked some hella low pay tech jobs when I was starting out. I chalked it up to paying my dues. You don't make a lot, but you learn a lot. Better to make $1 than spend $10k being told how to do the same thing at a school.
Right on the money! My Mom taught me a lot about retail. One thing she always said was ,"There are some customers you'd rather lose than win." She was absolutely right but often times your bosses don't see it that way so it's "The customer is always right." Puts you between a rock and a hard place and, of course, your boss never backs you up, lol! But there ARE subversive ways to get around that 😉
If you pay peanuts, you hire monkeys. 🐒 I learned that working a couple of years at a call center for a mail order pharmacy as a translator. I went back to college for a second degree that more than doubled my paycheck & my abusive boss ended up in a minimum wage fast food job. 😂
@@andreavictoriaparadiso47 Sadly the shitty bosses I've had have ended up with massive pay raises, new positions, and new cars. World ain't always fair. But they did encourage me to get the heck out of that industry.
@@Goodgu3963 I'm so glad you found your way out! It seemed like that to me in several of my situations...they got ahead while I got trodden on. Then, years later, I found out it wasn't how it all ended up after all. What goes around comes around but sometimes it takes a little while. Wishing you all the very best!
I love that despite your differences, and the fact you two will never work together again, I love the vast amount of respect you have for Jamie and how high to talk about him in a proffesionell regard ❤
If you've already bought the materials and put in a lot of time then it would be a better situation to finish it and try to get paid. Otherwise you could wind up taking a bigger loss. But it sounded like Adam was nearly done when the client didn't return his call.
@@writerpatrick Don’t get me wrong, I am on Adams side ref payment, it would just worry me especially as he stopped the initial payment, as a freelance sculptor communication is the key to all work!
When you bite off more than you can chew, and end up having to eat it, it can be worth telling the client what happened. That way they won't be surprised if they ask you to do it again and you quote them twice as much.
That part about how they are going in is how they are going to be throughout is fact and something that is well learned. I have had clients that are like that and press you hard to lower your price, at some point I end up raising the price (this is where you find out how badly they want 'you') I raised my price on a previous client by 200% and when she said "but I'm your best customer" I immediately said "No, you are my biggest nightmare" this customer was beyond picky and complained about everything, yet she knew I was the only one around that could get the job done to the level of quality needed. I did not want to work for her ever again but at 200% raise I was willing to bite my tongue and do it. She went with another company and when I saw the garbage they gave her in the end it was amazing.
Yep.. I’m the Construction Industry we call it “Time and Material”… You pay on a Hourly day by day basis and you sign off at the end of each and every day on the hours worked and each guy working them.. We charge $55 per hour straight time and $77 Hour overtime.
Man, thank you. Appreciate all the wisdom you have shared (and it does seem considerable). Appreciate you sharing the travails that led to that wisdom. Thank you. Aloha
It takes ten years to build a rep, your ability, your confidence in your ability, the know how to say NO, how to know when fire a customer, or overbid to give the shop down the road a chance at it. They say practice makes perfect, but perfect practice makes perfect,( dirt ft) do it right the first time. Be honest humble know your role. Love your work Adam, big fan.
Use the engineering rule of thumb when making estimates. Double the estimate and then bump it up to the next unit of measure or magnitude. A one hour project will take two days. A 10 dollar job will cost $200.
@@zerentheunskilled That's only the estimate. The final price could be closer to the actual cost. Although no project should be estimated at less than a day.
Or you can have a client like Tronld Dump who just tells his contractors that he will only pay 80% of the bill and if they don't accept, they can try to sue him which will cost tens of thousands of dollars all while he bad mouths them and tries to get them blacklisted from any future jobs.
As a self employed landscape gardener I can 100% back up Adams claim that after being screwed a couple of times you learn the sent of those clients. It has gotten to the point that after 10 years on the job I can have a single conversation with these clients and know exactly what sort of trouble they are going to be. To be clear you can deal with some of the clients you just have to not compromise after the contract has been accepted
This is so validating. I got so frustrated with perpetually changing requests as an artist, that I just quit doing commissions years ago. Now I just make what I like, price it appropriately, and it always sells anyway. People think art isn't "work", so it shouldn't cost much, and everyone wants free "examples".
When he paused just before he said "client", I could see his mind run through about 4 or 5 inappropriate things to say.
Yeah, saw that a few times here 🤣🤣🤣...and I felt the pain, too!
Sometimes “client” is a four-letter word.
@@tehlaser It's the _other_ C-Word. Along with Content.
My friends and I all freelance I we often use the word client as in "they were being a total client" 😄
@@armyofcats How polite of all of you...😂😂😂
I'm a freelance writer and the advice here applies to all freelance work. Sometimes you underestimate the job's complexity and the time it will take and overestimate your own abilities, and (as Adam said) you just have to eat it. Other times, you run into a client who's such an obvious pain in the ass that you know working with them is going to be an absolute nightmare. No matter how hungry you are, don't take those jobs. Some people's money is too expensive.
"Some people's money is too expensive" that's one of the best phrases I've ever heard. So true.
Love that phrase! I'm tattooing it on my brain!
"Some peoples money is too expensive" is such a good phrase.
It also applies for jobs- i've had misfortune of working for both a toxic workplace and good workplace, that turned to toxic. My advice is, that if you encounter such jobs (trust me, you know it when you encounter them or turn into these), the moment you realise it, talk to your boss or bosses and if they give you the runaround or are not keen on answering, basically delaying every reply, its not worth it.
I'm a translator, and I wholeheartedly agree!
i basically agree with Adam.. but I think it would not be improper, once the contractor realized that the bid was too low for the work, to be able to tell the person, so they know, and even if you will still complete the job, they at least know your situation. They might still offer or renegotiate a price as a way to be fair. but if not, then, of course, they can hold you to the contracted price and other terms, as you can with them
I also disagree with Adam on another point. (it may be that I am not understanding what he meant by some of his wording). He spoke of negotiating with a client in the beginning. And it is at this stage where most of the clarifying takes place.. not after the job has started. So a client that appears to be obsessed with details may actually be making sure that everything is understood and agreed upon to the correct understanding of all parties in the contract. And of course, putting those things down in written form, and signed off on them by all parties. And in case there is any trouble, the contract and notes can be referred to for clarification, as memories fade with time.
I'm a consulting engineer and one of the most important things I've learned is to put EVERYTHING into a written contract. When will the job start, when will it be delivered, when will you be paid, HOW will you be paid. Do you need something from the client in order for you to finish your work? Put it in writing and clearly state when they will need to provide it.
Scope creep is a common occurrence in my industry and I will often have to go back to clients and ask for more money because of changes they've requested. Having the original parameters of the contract clearly written makes it easy to show how things have changed, why it requires more effort, and why it costs more money.
"You asked for X, I priced for X, you're now asking for Y, here's the price for Y."
This ^^^^
This, this, this. I used to do commercial sales. Everything in writing and always follow up on a phone call with and email. A written record is a must
Not to mention that more often than not clients will try to get discounts and/or extra work with any excuse, having everything on writing gives less room for excuses.
FYI: Change Orders are very very IMPORTANT. Often you an a client will agree to a scope of the project, but during the implementation the client wants changes (aka mission creep). This is a tactic many clients use to get more out of you than the job is worth.
I recommend you have a a signed agreement that states exactly what services (or products ) you will be providing and that any changes that deviate from the original agreement will include extra charges that the client must sign off (get it writing).
It's also possible to include *some* flexibility in the base contract. You just want to stop it getting out of hand. Feature freezes are another way of doing things.
I work for an engineering firm and you are EXACTLY right. We had a customer want changes for free. No. Engineers are not cheap or free to have doing new designs hourly
I think there’s an allowable amount (of time or money) that should be afforded for clients or creators to tweak aspects of the project. The creative process is always a journey into the unknown, and sometimes it has to take shape in order to know what shape it ought become. Clients typically give deadlines that actually have wiggle room, and creators give bids that actually allow a certain percentage of “force majeure” and other unknowns.
@@davidswanson5669 Yes. There has to be a bit of slack. The "Life of Pi" people had an open ended call on the work side.
I doubt this is a malicious thing most clients do on purpose, so I don't know if "tactic" is the right word. I know, as a person who creates things, that for my own projects I often don't realize exactly what is going to be involved in that process, and they often grow in scope beyond my original vision. I also have a tendency to make a thing, look at the """finished""" product, and realize it's lacking something and needs further iteration. Sometimes by this point I notice something absolutely crucial and/or fundamental is missing that *must* be included for the final version to meet my standards. For me, since I just write code, that only really means more of my own time, but if you make physical things then that means more materials you have to source, which drives up costs even more. This is a trap I fall into regularly as the person with the creative vision for my project who should know better because I'm also the one making it, so I can't imagine just how easy it is for clients who aren't directly involved in the building process to not have a complete idea of what the project actually entails. This is a classic example of Hanlon's Razor, and I think it's folly to go into projects under the assumption that clients are trying to screw you on purpose. Definitely prepare for that inevitability, because some clients actually are trying to screw you, and those who aren't doing it on purpose are still perfectly capable of doing it if you don't have the right safety nets in place, but to expect that clients actively want to gouge you only breeds resentment and cynicism. As a creator, the last thing you want is to become jaded.
A colleague of mine worked in the auto industry and once overheard executives joking about what vendors they were going to put out of business that year. Abusing contracted manufacturers is definitely not limited to the entertainment industry.
As someone who worked in the auto parts manufacturing sector, this doesn't surprise me at all. At some point in the 1990's, Ford, GM, etc., decided that if a supplier was making a profit, that was money they left on the table.
As an employee of one of the big ones, I am absolutely not surprised.
Shame on them. I hope karma was watching!
That is a bit crazy to me - I’d hoped my company was pretty standard, they constantly emphasize that we can’t succeed without our suppliers succeeding. Trying to destroy suppliers seems absolutely bonkers to me.
@@scifisyko Well, the result of putting the screws to suppliers was a ratcheting down of wages and benefits in the supplier sector. Wages, btw, were never the most significant cost factor in manufacturing, contrary to popular belief. Material costs (steel) and energy costs were well ahead. But wages were, and still are, the #1 "controllable cost" and were the target. That's where the parts suppliers found their "efficiencies". Whether that was by design, or just a happy accident, that was the effect.
A lot of the times the client won't mention a "simple detail" and you will end with more that you can't chew but it's not your fault... I once estimated a software migration in 100 hours, 2.5 times the industry standard rate, to a client that didn't show a single line of code until after we signed the contract, and then realized their app was almost 3 millions lines of code and had to be completely tested to be certified as migrated, took +300 hours, I ended up eating the bill but they paid a great bonus that covered most of it and the next contract we both raised the hourly rate and completely changed estimations as we already were cleared to look at code.
Always charge .25 more than you think it'll cost at the least. I really hope with the strokes going on in Hollywood right now that the studio system will be forced to change so that the people that actually make movies get a fair deal.
When studios like A21 actually collaborate with creators and everyone gets their fair share we get movies that defy expectations and break norms.
Hey, that's great that you and this company were able to remedy the situation and maintain a relationship.
I would offer a lesson from home construction contracts.
Use your experience, or the experience of others, to estimate the time the job will take.
Pad that estimate by 20-40%, charge a per hour that will let you pay all of the people on the job, plus taxes and employment expenses, that will avoid you losing out in that account.
Make sure the materials price is either set above current prices at the time of contract signing, or that the client will pay the ACTUAL materials cost.
Write in a clause to charge for change orders. My employer gave one free change order if the change was less than 15% of the whole job in hours, but the customer was on the hook for materials.
Set up a stepped payment method such that the first payment covers materials and non-employment expenses at a minimum, then other partial payments at major job milestones. In the case of construction, it would be like 30% up front, 30% when the concrete for the foundation was poured and passed inspection, 20% when backfill was complete, and the remainder when the site was left clean.
Include a clause that non-payment without cause will result in fees/lien/etc.
Have a good lawyer with experience in contract and commercial cases.
I work in IT and frequently have the same issue.
Recently I quoted 10 hours for a job that took 40, so when another client came along I quoted 40 hours for the exact same job and haven't heard from them since.
I frequently neglect to include quote prep time, writing up essay-sized emails with information about the job, meetings and phone calls with the client etc and of course, when they want 78 things changed after it's been deployed.
I now quote "4 additional hours for tweaks and changes after deployment" so if they go beyond that I can keep billing.
While watching this video I felt this feeling of how lucky we are, after all these years after MythBusters, we still have this change of know and learn from you Adam, thanks you so much.
Well said
100% agreed. He could’ve very well just gone on and “lived” but instead keeps us around and STILL educates and teaches us!! Thanks man!!
My wife and I have repeated Jamie’s advice of “however the client is going to be going into the job is how they will be going through” multiple times since the first time you told the story. It is now helping us immensely as we transition to a new career. I think it applies to a potential boss/organization who are interviewing with you.
I'm a 2D animator and the industry now is absurd, it's exactly like Adam said. They will pay you a predetermined amount, but then down the line will require changes after changes because directors are incapable of abstracting ideas and they want you to animate it first, so they can see it finalized and only then they go like "hmmm, yeah we need to completely change this thing that I agreed upon when I watched the animatic" and of course they don't want to pay for the redos....... this needs to stop
well, let them hire teams in asia that do the work cheaper.
I know that incredible people work in many places; but nagging a supplier will result in "oh sorry, no time for you" and "oh, you need us? next year we have slot! You need in 3 months? So express fee?".
From what I understand that's what happened with the new terrible flash movie
@@jono6379 It's what happens with LOTS of movies
@@z-beeblebrox but have you seen the new flash movie? that was appalling, even the animator came out afterwards saying something along the lines of "they aren't paying me enough to care"
@@jono6379 I generally just don't like this mode of inquiry because it implies that the only time it matters that animators are treated like shit is on bad movies. This is not the case, there are plenty of fantastic movies out there where the animators were treated like shit. If we only focus on the times when the outcome was bad, then we're implicitly saying that it's only wrong to treat people poorly when the content is poorly received, but it's worth it if the content is good.
Adam, the studio you’re speaking of that went bankrupt doing the VFX for Life of Pi was Rhythm and Hues Studios, and it was the last production I worked on before exiting the industry after being at R&H Studio for 15 years. I still recall Oscar’s ceremony when the actors and other people in the audience were laughing at Bill our VFX supervisor accepting his academy award and was chased off the stage just as he was trying to bring to light the horrible way the industry is run. Ironic that they only seem to care about their own plight during these strikes when they didn’t GAF about the VFX industry back then, and still don’t now. VFX bidding has always been a race to the bottom, with the movie studios pitting VFX houses against each other.
At least there are some union wins in the VFX industry recently.
You must have worked with Walt J, a friend of mine. It's a crime what happened to you guys and the industry as a whole.
@@hovermnWalt was a lighting sup/CG sup while we were there. The last shows we worked on together was Life of Pi and Percy Jackson2. He was great at his job. 🙌🏻
@@hovermn I say it is time for that table to turn. Will take unity, but if all VFX companies join together - you guys can pretty much hold holywood by the balls. What tv shows or films will be made with out you guys, YOU HAVE the power if you unite and all work together to get a better deal. holywood really is just the worse humanity has to offer.
bidding on jobs so you companies can have their pick of whoever will do the most for the least amount of compensation, is such a nightmare concept.
I once charged 50$ for an illustration of a specific car and by the end of it I had worked 12 hours a day for an entire week. This stuff happens to everybody, the important part is learning how to do acurate quoting on your work and also learn what the value of your time is.
And always leave margin for error! Also known as profit.
oof
"Make this job go away." You gotta love Jamie for that move.
Yeah, I can absolutely imagine Jamie's voice saying exactly that.
I once bid $120 on a project that involved converting a paper blueprint into an AutoCAD file. Looked easy at first, but the thing ended up taking three times as long as I expected to. Fortunately, my client was understanding, and paid me $300 for the job. It still only ended up paying me about $8 per hour (back in the '90s), but it could've been much, much worse.
I love that even after more than 30 years he despair at how little he charged for the pieces!
😀😁😂🤣
Well when you create a pretty bad financial situation for you and your gf at the time, right after you moved in with her, it tends to stick in your memory.
Saw the title, half expected the OTHER big mess up story of the low budget movie. Yet wow! I'll never not be amazed at the amount of stories Adam still has in storage.
What was the low budget movie?
@@guytech7310He had to build an atm for a friends movie, failed horribly, and wound up having to sit in a room surrounded by the entire crew while they took turns detailing every way he failed them. Said friend also cut said friendship and they have NEVER spoken since.
he later turned down a gig for another low budget movie where a kids bedroom got so tired of being filthy that said bedroom pushed itself out of the house and ran away. He stated that he knew he would need a second person to work with on it with him to keep him on task, but the budget wouldn't allow it so he had to decline the job
Another failure was a window display for a store that used baseball pitching machines to lightly toss baseballs at a target of some sort but the baseballs REFUSED to fly properly. He spent a ton of time trying to troubleshoot it to no avail and expected to have to refund their money. Instead he client never even found out because they decided last second to do something else. Adam got paid in full and and the client just threw the whole damn thing out. lol
Adam later learned on mythbusters that baseballs, when pitched slowly from a machine, behave badly. it would probably require a heavily customized machine to do properly.
@@guytech7310 can't remember the name. But the story was told by Adam at makers faire 2009 IIRC, you can look it up and the video should pop.
Whether its a client, employee, subcontractor, life partner…you often can judge their character on your first interaction. They will NEVER be any better/nicer/considerate/kinder/easier to deal with, than on that first or second interaction. Its all downhill from there, folks.
Sense a bit of rudeness, snarkiness, attempt to WAY undercut prices, little to no appreciation of your art…either walk away or quadruple your price to make it worth your time, effort and the heartache you’ll experience dealing with a true a**hole.
Been there. Great life lesson.
parents can be true a**holes or c*nts also.
Yep. When you shake hands on agreement of the job. That exact moment right there is as good as it will ever get with that customer. I've told a customer to come get his car. I'm not loud, hostile or angry. I just say it matter-of-factly with no drama or theatrics. Then thank my lucky stars I was not deeper in the job.
@@michaelmoore7975 Exactly 👍
Always see how the people you're with treat those "below" them. Because that's who they really are.
You just described my brother-in-law's 30+ year custom cabinet business. He was always way too nice to tell a difficult client "no thank you" and almost always underestimated the time it would take to complete a job.
My father had a similar business, and instead of saying "no" he would say he didn't have the time to take on more work. Usually, after a couple times those people would get the hint. I did see a situation where someone couldn't take a hint, and the guy went into my father's workshop on a Saturday when he and I were working on something for my mother, and the guy started yelling at him. All 5'4" of my father got in the guy's face, shoved him out of the workshop, and told him that if he didn't leave right away he was leaving in an ambulance. He got the hint after that.
I think the reason for under bidding a job is so you can still get it, if its too much they wont want what your making. Someone asked me to sculpt them 4 figures/ print and paint them, i said $450 cuz it would take me that long and had a price break down. He laughed in my face and never replied because it was to expensive. Like im not going to bust my ass for weeks just for less than $200.
Sure, but unless you're desperate, that's not generally a job worth taking, and if you are desperate enough to take low pay, you would probably be better off spending the time looking for a standard job.
that or the job will likely be very low quality, emphasizing you get what you pay for.
@@kgrfirdjy compromising on quality is a complicated line to walk. I mean: If the customer makes it clear that you work on a background model of a background scene and thus can skimp on the details... okay. But... if the customer has a clear idea and you have clear idea and you can not agree on the price for the level of quality you consider adequate, just don't. It is not worth the stress.
It also risks damaging your reputation to put out such work.@@sarowie
There are always people ignorant of the value and cost of things. You just end up learning to ignore them. Unfortunately online review sites can make these people a major PITA.
I'm retired now but did freelance illustration for many years. Underbidding was always a huge problem for me. This was mostly because I was constantly broke and desperate for money, which is a real death spiral. You need to take whatever you can get just to survive but then you're not getting paid enough and are even more desperate.
After 40 years these clients still get under my radar, I get so mad at myself! Then I have to think "well they made me better and it is a learning curve." And I will never see them again, because they knew they screwed me! Sort of ike when you loan your friend $5 and they don't pay you back, that is a cheap season cause now they won't borrow $100.
If you loan someone 50$ and won't see him again it means it was well spent money. Or something like that.
Years ago I heard the saying "if you loan a friend $20 and you never see them again it was $20 well spent" and it immediately stuck in my head for eternity. And Ive had similar situations happen to me, its just that most of them it was a tool instead of money.
That analogy does not work at all. Those are two completely different situations.
@@mattpace1026 typically an analogy is about an entirely different situation, for the sake of making a point, or forthe sake of making something clear.
For example: if you have a blockage in you intestines that has lead to a perforation that requires surgery, your doctor may explain it as if its the plumbing in your house and talk about how "the pipe froze, and now its burst, so the plumber has to cut open the wall and solder in a new piece"
Its an analogy BECAUSE its a different situation
@@nicholastrawinski Wow, you have to have just blatantly ignored what I said, because you are arguing an entirely different point.
ADAM THANK YOU. I'm sending this to my producers after we finish the shoot this weekend. Oh my god man, that last bit you touched on asking others to help across multiple studios has been my life the last week. i feel so seen and validated holy crap thank you Adam
Those are tough when you just start out. You are always worried about getting more work and never want to lose a client, but as you go on you realize there are some clients you never want to work for again anyway.
As a maker and prop person in the movie industry, I'm here just nodding my head up and down as Adam is talking.. I've experienced every single instance he did.. and I've learned a lot as well.
It's honestly crazy to think that it's been 20 Years since Mythbusters started and that's how a lot of us discovered Adam.
Yep glad he's still around too watch too feel like a kid again watching discovery after school
I wonder if he knows how well loved he is and by how many people worldwide.
*a lot
And his recollections of a chickenwire topiary are as interesting as him blowing something into pieces.
Me and my son would always watch it every week he is a grown man now with kids' good memory's of mythbusters
Best advice I heard was “ reading” a client…took me years to figure this out
What do you mean? :)
On the contract I always put any additional and/or unforeseen work can result in extra cost and/or a new job work order.
Not responsible for damages from storing materials.
I love these kind of videos from you. Wisdom gained through experience and presenting it from a place of camaraderie is so helpful and therapeutic.
I'm not a maker or craft person at all, but this video hit me hard. Even in personal relationships, the little flags you see at the start show themselves even more fully and clearly as the relationship develops. It's not just a business thing- It's a life lesson thing.
Amen!
I've been thinking that marriages should be based on written contracts rather than vows.
I've spent most of my adult life so far simply developing the self-confidence to acknowledge toxic situations for what they are and learning how to walk away. If you find yourself being drained or destroyed by a relationship, job, etc, then there's absolutely no shame in leaving before the situation deteriorates any further.
@@Pellagrah
That's why written contracts would be good. We aren't good at getting out of toxic relationships, because we slowly become anestisized to bad behavior and end up living in denial of some sort and that some nebulis future goals or result will have made it all worthwhile, in the meantime we fool ourselves into being victims of another.
and most of the lessons should be part of standard education not just business or law school.
@@cynicalrabbit915They are, it’s called a prenup.
Except, if the man doesn’t allow it to expire, (or any other way the wife can get out of it) a judge will just throw the prenup out for being “unfair”.
Anecdotes of the losses and missteps can be far more valuable lessons than the wins. So glad Adam shared this.
Hey, this was my question!
Thanks a bunch for answering it Adam! It helped a lot and that was a really good story to share.
love hearing the war stories, after 30yrs I've got few of my own. A few thoughts are always remember you will be doing the rough R&D before bidding so that you can know if you can do it. When working with a Corp always have the point of contact as high up the food chain as you can get,, typical department heads don't have the final say, and if it's multiple depts involved beware of committees . And don't bid on the promise that after this one the will need many more. If you set the bid a bit high and the delivery time longer than needed They love you when they get it faster and under budget.
"How a client is going into a project is how they are throughout the project". So true. I don't do this kind of work but I do commission artists from time to time when I can afford it and I try very hard to foster a good working relationship with them so that they know they can set boundaries without upsetting me and I can ask progress reports without feeling like I'm being a "is it done yet" client or feeling like I am pushing them to hurry.
A simple 2-3 minute chat about what i should expect from the artist, and what they can expect from me as a client in terms of asking questions about progress and staying updated so we both feel okay and satisfied by the end.
Such a great story teller, always love your stories and anecdotes! Thanks Adam!
As someone who is a similar age to Adam and has run his own studio since his early 20's I watched this with so much empathy. It's 100% on the nail. I've got the T shirt.
This is such a good question and an incredibly invaluable answer, I am a freelancer and encounter things like this quite often, thank you Adam.
Great advice! I used to be an audio engineer and ran into a similar situation as the special effects companies you mention. I would quote a price for the whole job, but then was saddled with change after change from the artists. So I shifted to the cost-plus model. I didn't get as many jobs that way, but at least I got paid what I was worth.
I finally got in a line of work, selling online, where I get paid before I ship. Trying to get money out of people is an absolute nightmare even if things go well. Its really unbelievable how many clients I had who would stand right there, tell me I did a great job, exceeded expectations, then give me a song and dance about my money. Unreal. Even now people try and claw it back more than they should after I shipped. They will say things like 'it died'. Oh really when did it die? Two months ago? Did you water it? Did you know plants need water? No? Well they do.
The sad reality is that you have to build more profit into your prices any way possible even if it means making your product worse.
Unfortunate we live in a world where you have to eat the costs whenever a customer changes their mind or is ignorant about how to use the product. At the end of the day that customer writing a bad review is going to hurt your business more than charging higher prices.
no@@WARnTEA
It's insane how creativity and hard work is "not worth a cent" to those who require the work to be done for them.
Adam, we all go through the early stages of wanting the job and not yet being confident enough to schedule and charge adequately. I went through the same phase (here, on the East Coast - commercials mostly - about 10 years prior to your experiences here). Hard lessons learned, confidence gained, if you survive - which it seems you have done. BTW, GREAT, GREAT work on display on your channel. Very jealous of your set up there . . . love the Sorcerer's Lair you've built there.
As a full time violin maker that has retired from repair or restoration for the most part, every time I get conned into a restoration job by a client I will add 30%+ to the hourly quote for crack repair and varnish work. It always insures that I’m not wasting my time by underpaying myself. Learning that your time is valuable took me years to figure out.
It wasn't PDI, it was Rhythm & Hues that did the VFX for Life of Pi, won the Oscar and went out of business. I was there, it sucked. I'm coming up on 30 years in VFX and R&H is still my favorite place to have worked.
This is some great advice here. As a small building contractor, you learn to get a feeling about a customer. When you get a sense you are dealing with someone that is difficult, it's better to start off small, and see if you can work together and you get paid. Large often scare me not because of the size, but because of the risk.
Homeowners are some of the most difficult people to work for because they know nothing about construction, and the job is so personal to them. I have much better success in commercial construction.
As a tooling manufacturer, there are times that we bid on a repair job "T+M, not to exceed $X,XXX" (Time + Material). The "not to exceed" is usually set high enough that we'll break even if everything goes haywire, but the T+M allows the customer to keep the cost at the lowest possible amount that's fair for me as well.
Oh man I remember not being able to think after losing my son, I would be talking to a customer on the phone and just not understand. I felt so bad for them and ashamed of myself for not being able to comprehend complex accounting software that I was trained on and on top of being compassionate. All the while needing to get that 10 on that survey because that's your lively hood. I remember breaking up on the phone and telling my customer I couldn't do it and apologized.
THIS is a GREAT question!! Any maker (being honest) that does commissions will have dealt with this in SOME way! Getting a real professional’s experience and how they dealt with it is priceless advice!! Thanks SO much Adam. I JUST dealt with this and just ate the costs…
The part about how the client will show you who they are in the quoting process and won’t change during the whole process is something I absolutely have to remind myself all the time. I constantly find myself giving someone the benefit of the doubt as the show red flags. I remind myself it’s best to politely turn down the work rather than deal with the headache
As a life long creator, THANK YOU! Creatives are the worst at billing and admin and paperwork. We need more open discussions about how to do business.
There's nothing worse that being nice to a client that screws over it makes you feel like shit
That falls into the taking it personal thing in my estimation. You thought there was a personal relationship but to the client it was entirely business. That's just how you also have to look at it, so you don't feel so bad when you feel like you're "not being very nice" to a client. Too bad. Fool me once, shame on me..
@djjazzyjeff1232 true but a business person would handle things professionally by communicating.
@@smiley4995 A good business person would, but that's not all of, hell that's not even most of em in my experience..
@@djjazzyjeff1232 ok good point....
I’m beginning to see why a lot of stuff in Hollywood needs to change big time. Writers strike, actors strike and so forth. Sorely needed.
It's a persistent issue. Hollywood is mostly a few big players, so they have tremendous negotiating power and can trivially collaborate to screw people over.
Seems more like the VFX people are the ones that need to be on strike not the writers.
@@WayStedYou They both should strike. And probably a lot of the roles in the business…
Switching to a cost plus model has definitely helped me a lot, especially considering how often things can go in a different way than expected in many jobs.
OMG Adam, your anecdote about the effects industry blew my mind because I never thought there could be another industry as screwed up (billing/quoting) as software development. Your story sounds so familiar, except in software the marketing department tells the customer "Oh yeah, it already does that", then the salesman comes and tells engineering we have x time to develop a new feature that he already sold without asking how long it would take, or if it was even possible.
Knowing when to fire problem customers is a hard earned but invaluable skill. After awhile one can sense who is worth working with/for and who is not. Don’t be desperate for work.
I work in estimating, and sometimes a cost can look absolutely ridiculous on paper. But when the actual work is getting done and you start getting close to the budgeted amount, you'll be happy for adding in escalation factors and scrap/rework
I used to often give clients the choice -
You pay $500 flat, or you can pay $100/hour, which will probably be $200-$300.
I'll take in the risk of the job being bigger than expected, but that risk has a price. If you want a flat rate, I'm going to quote twice as much as I expect it to take.
I'm in a completely unrelated freelance field but this is SO relatable and excellent advice no matter what industry you're in. Thank you, fellow Adam.
When you're bidding for something always remember:
COST is determined by the seller.
VALUE is determined by the buyer.
Always, ALWAYS value your time.
When budgeting time for a project, use the Montgomery Scott Method:
1. Take the approximate time you think it will take to do the job.
2. Multiply it by two for unknown and unpredicted events.
3. Then, take the total time and multiply it by two again for the unknowable and unpredictable events.
What you're forgetting here is step 4 add 10% so the is some profit in it for you.
If I'm reading your comment correctly, the correct consequent is not to value your time, it's to bill it out. Yes: Bill it out.
@@richsackett3423All trades are a value proposition. When the trade is made, ideally there is a net value increase. If not, the trade should not be made.
Everything Adam says there ALSO applies to software development and we call the iterative cost plus model, "AGILE SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT" and there are LOTS of online tools and best practices you can look up that work well for ANY kind of maker.
*One of the BEST ways to handle underbidding is to apply your "average estimation error rate" and here's how you calculate that:*
For EVERY project, calculate your *PROJECT ESTIMATION ERROR RATE* by comparing what it ACTUALLY cost in time and materials to what you thought it would at the beginning. Average all of your *PROJECT ESTIMATION ERROR RATES* together to determine your *AVERAGE ESTIMATION ERROR RATE*
Apply that to every new project bid and then wash rinse repeat. With any luck you should see your estimation errors getting smaller and smaller over time. Hope it helps!
Cheers
I've seen other makers say "Charge as much for a job that you would no longer feel disappointed if you didn't get it".
It honestly seems like great advice, because it factors in whether a job is particularly cool, or particularly interesting to add to your skills and portfolio, or if it's mundane / short timescale / risky.
Thank you for being so open with sharing your wisdom Adam, really
The stop payment would have been an instant cancelled job.
Thanks for taking the care to answer the writer's question so thoroughly.
I just started taking art commissions and nearly fell into the trap of super-underpricing... Thankfully someone made me realize I was charging WAY too low!
Great video Adam, got me smiling at the end talking about visual effects studios. I had first hand experience of about to Rhythm and Hues in their brand new Kaohsiung Studio in Taiwan, only to be told the Studio had gone under two weeks later. Crazy times but luckily it all worked out.
"When someone shows you who they are, believe them"
The cost-plus thing is the whole reason Agile is used so much in IT: small iterations with clearly defined deliverables are much easier to estimate and handle for both sides. If you split up a project into parts that provide value even if you have to hire someone else to finish it, it makes the client much more comfortable with the cost plus thing.
It's not always possible but if it is, it helps.
Apparently I'm a dream client. I'm all about the cost-plus model when it makes sense, I'm patient, communicative, pay whatever asked, offer to pay more if things go south, and tip well. And yet I've still had several contractors who in the end didn't do the job as-asked. :\ Here's a pro-tip for contractors: if there's a hurricane outside, go home and come back to do the yard work another day. Don't do half of what was promised because Hurricane. And if a customer offers to pay more when unexpected things pop up, take her up on it. Don't skimp on the job to make up your lost money. Sheesh.
There are as many bad contractors as there are clients. Learning how to smell bad contractors as a client is as important as learning to smell bad clients as a contractor.
Sounds like you're a gullible client.
This is pure gold! Thank you!
Cost plus is a valid contracting form for development if the client has deep pockets. The government uses this with defense contractors while developing new systems. I don't see anyone using this form for production because it puts all the risk on the buyer. I do believe that the initial contract (or bid) should allow for changes requested by the buyer to be costed out additionally to the original bid.
As a one man show of automotive fabrication shop, where work ranges so much in cost and complexity i can't tell you how much i appreciate an extra perspective on this issue. First story really hits home man!
I made some plaques for a ladies horse awards one time. It sounded simple enough, maybe a couple day job, but ended up taking me damn near a month to complete. Not 15 minutes after accepting the job, my shop vac broke. An hour later my planer died running the first board through. The next day my table saw bit the dust. Finally got them shaped right and was trying to finish them, spilled the ENTIRE brand new gallon of shellac, bought more, and used well over a quart trying to get the finish right but it just wasn't working because my shop was so dusty due to the broken shop vac. FINALLY got it looking right and went to screw the metal plates on and the very last screw twisted in half. I managed to get it out after a couple hours of carefully trying and attempted again. The 2nd screw twisted off. But this time it was flush with the surface and also at an angle. I tried to drill it out but the drill bit slipped off the end of the screw and made an oblong hole that stuck out passed the edge of the metal plate making it really visible. I was on the verge of tears at that point. I texted my client and told her what happened and said I could re-shape the plaque and make it look over-all better but I don't think she was really picking up what I was throwing down and said "No its okay, I like them the way they are". I sat there so incredibly stressed out for the next 3 days trying to figure out how the hell I was going to fix this. I ended up painstakingly color matching some epoxy and filling the hole. I also epoxied the metal plate onto the plaque and super glued the head of the screws in place so it looked like it was just screwed down. I had initially quoted her $100 a piece or $200 total for the job and found myself in the hole at least $1000 and a month of labor down the drain. At least she was pretty cool and is now one of my moms very few friends haha
Solid advice Adam. When I was partners in a tree removal / trimming business my partner had a job in que prior to my buying into the company. When we arrived on the job site I saw two Mammoth Sycamore trees that were over 100' tall. I asked him which one was being removed and he said both, I asked him how much did you bid this for and he said $5,000.00 Power lines ran through them and shut down an entire neighborhood, the job should have been bid @ around 15K as it required a crane and 2 weeks of labor with the existing crew. Assessing all the elements of a job including everything that could possibly go wrong are key to bidding it properly.
Adam / Jamie and the rest of the old Mythbusters crew are legends ❤
Great vid, thanks Adam.
I have tried to explain this to so many students and young designers. This is unfortunately a lesson that can only be learned by experiencing it.
I've worked some hella low pay tech jobs when I was starting out. I chalked it up to paying my dues. You don't make a lot, but you learn a lot. Better to make $1 than spend $10k being told how to do the same thing at a school.
I really appreciate this segment. Hits home.
Right on the money! My Mom taught me a lot about retail. One thing she always said was ,"There are some customers you'd rather lose than win." She was absolutely right but often times your bosses don't see it that way so it's "The customer is always right." Puts you between a rock and a hard place and, of course, your boss never backs you up, lol! But there ARE subversive ways to get around that 😉
If you pay peanuts, you hire monkeys. 🐒 I learned that working a couple of years at a call center for a mail order pharmacy as a translator. I went back to college for a second degree that more than doubled my paycheck & my abusive boss ended up in a minimum wage fast food job. 😂
@@kgrfirdjy My bosses ended up with similar fates...🙄
@@andreavictoriaparadiso47 Sadly the shitty bosses I've had have ended up with massive pay raises, new positions, and new cars. World ain't always fair. But they did encourage me to get the heck out of that industry.
@@Goodgu3963 I'm so glad you found your way out! It seemed like that to me in several of my situations...they got ahead while I got trodden on. Then, years later, I found out it wasn't how it all ended up after all. What goes around comes around but sometimes it takes a little while. Wishing you all the very best!
I love that despite your differences, and the fact you two will never work together again, I love the vast amount of respect you have for Jamie and how high to talk about him in a proffesionell regard ❤
I would not have finished the job if he wasn’t returning calls, I would have feared he jumped ship and you wasn’t going to get paid at all!
Yeah, while a lot of this is down to Adam the client was definitely operating in bad faith.
If you've already bought the materials and put in a lot of time then it would be a better situation to finish it and try to get paid. Otherwise you could wind up taking a bigger loss. But it sounded like Adam was nearly done when the client didn't return his call.
Or you could put in the extra work and resources and end up taking an even bigger loss..@@writerpatrick
@@writerpatrick Don’t get me wrong, I am on Adams side ref payment, it would just worry me especially as he stopped the initial payment, as a freelance sculptor communication is the key to all work!
Then he would've lost the money and the days working on it and had unsellable finished product.
Thank you Adam. I had some bad experiences but we can learn and improve. Its nice to know we are not alone.
When you bite off more than you can chew, and end up having to eat it, it can be worth telling the client what happened. That way they won't be surprised if they ask you to do it again and you quote them twice as much.
Thank you for another great video. Your sage advice is pertinent in all the service industries.
Rich people are often the cheapest people I've ever met.
Oh, yeeees!
The kind of rich people most of know are the ones who absolutely hate spending money.
That part about how they are going in is how they are going to be throughout is fact and something that is well learned. I have had clients that are like that and press you hard to lower your price, at some point I end up raising the price (this is where you find out how badly they want 'you') I raised my price on a previous client by 200% and when she said "but I'm your best customer" I immediately said "No, you are my biggest nightmare" this customer was beyond picky and complained about everything, yet she knew I was the only one around that could get the job done to the level of quality needed. I did not want to work for her ever again but at 200% raise I was willing to bite my tongue and do it. She went with another company and when I saw the garbage they gave her in the end it was amazing.
Sounds like the whole industry just needs to switch to cost+ and not negotiate any other way
Yep.. I’m the Construction Industry we call it “Time and Material”… You pay on a Hourly day by day basis and you sign off at the end of each and every day on the hours worked and each guy working them.. We charge $55 per hour straight time and $77 Hour overtime.
I really apreciate this video as I currenty am in this same situation and feel completely overwhelmed.
Thank you Adam
Bad clients are trouble.
Some of them should be dodged.
We learn that we should close/sell all clients. but this is 100% not true.
Man, thank you. Appreciate all the wisdom you have shared (and it does seem considerable). Appreciate you sharing the travails that led to that wisdom. Thank you. Aloha
Always have a written contract.
It takes ten years to build a rep, your ability, your confidence in your ability, the know how to say NO, how to know when fire a customer, or overbid to give the shop down the road a chance at it. They say practice makes perfect, but perfect practice makes perfect,( dirt ft) do it right the first time. Be honest humble know your role. Love your work Adam, big fan.
Use the engineering rule of thumb when making estimates. Double the estimate and then bump it up to the next unit of measure or magnitude.
A one hour project will take two days. A 10 dollar job will cost $200.
That's the kind of behaviour that makes people distrust you then tell their friends about how you tried or succeeded at fleecing them.
@@zerentheunskilled That's only the estimate. The final price could be closer to the actual cost. Although no project should be estimated at less than a day.
That's how you lose jobs to the competition.
I’ve just started Making things for a living and I’ve found your advice and knowledge invaluable
Is it just me, or has it been forever since we had a 1 day build? My favourite videos on this channel, haven’t seen one for ages
The last video titled as such was about two months ago, but if you check the play list for one day build videos, the last one was 2 days ago.
This “client” seems like a really nice person, putting a hold on a check like that.
That client was an a$$.
Incredibly valuable advice, thank you.
Or you can have a client like Tronld Dump who just tells his contractors that he will only pay 80% of the bill and if they don't accept, they can try to sue him which will cost tens of thousands of dollars all while he bad mouths them and tries to get them blacklisted from any future jobs.
The legal system is definitely skewed hard to the rich.
As a self employed landscape gardener I can 100% back up Adams claim that after being screwed a couple of times you learn the sent of those clients. It has gotten to the point that after 10 years on the job I can have a single conversation with these clients and know exactly what sort of trouble they are going to be. To be clear you can deal with some of the clients you just have to not compromise after the contract has been accepted
When people show you who they are - believe them, the first time.
(Trump.... just saying....)
This should be a mandatory video for any service tech
This is so validating. I got so frustrated with perpetually changing requests as an artist, that I just quit doing commissions years ago. Now I just make what I like, price it appropriately, and it always sells anyway. People think art isn't "work", so it shouldn't cost much, and everyone wants free "examples".