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"Why does it cost so much?" Me: "The Hardware that gets the job done isn't free, the Property the work is done in isn't free, the food you eat to live to do the work isn't free, the Electricity is sure as hell not free, the Water isn't free, the cost of learning the skills you use to get the job done isn't free (Go ahead peoples, 'push a few buttons' without knowin what ya doin with it... see how fast things go comically wrong.), the paychecks of the Workforce isn't free, and ya better believe the Resource Cost isn't free." (Edit: Oh, also the Clothes ya wear aren't free. :P ) My condolences Adam and Team... sounds like some of the Clients ya have to put up with are the kinda peeps that also believe in idiotic things like Supermarket Meat that comes from "Magic Meat Faeries" and the like... 🙄
Some people inc adamsmown family have said terrible terrible things about Adam...but anyone whose met Adam or knows him will tell you hes not that guy. So listen to other people but then go see for yourself.
Everyone has a vision of what they hope to achieve. The wise balance that with what the universe can do. Let me tell you brother or sister that the universe doesn't ask how can I make this all work amazingly. Nope it says how can I make this go hard and it will always think of something you didn't just to humble us. No matter how mega-brained you think you are.
It's not just "pushing a few buttons"... it's knowing which buttons to press, in what order, how often, and how many times. As well as how much material to use, and what proportions of which color (not to mention finding consistent dye lots!) at what temperature. Quality assurance is infinitely more important than quality control.
The worst is bar none IT. Everything is working: "What the hell are we paying you for?!" Everything is on fire: "What the hell are we paying you for?!"
Imagine this situation in machine designing. The most work is that what's done under the surface. Filling out Meta-Data to make the part or assembly useful in other constructions, material selection, tolerances, this list is endless. But Chefs only see when you are rotating colourful pieces on the screen
Something that worked great for me back in my freelance designer days was, “you aren’t paying for the button pushing, you are paying for someone to care about this project in the same way you do, and will put in that amount of attention you would but with the skills you don’t have.”
I remember from a previous Q&A where Jamie had told Adam to "Make them go away" when dealing with a difficult client. I've built models for people, and had a few that were repeat customers. I had one guy that I heard was telling others that he was going to talk me down on the model when I was delivering it (I got a deposit). On delivery day, he did just that. Stood there admiring it and going over the details, then goes, "Well..." I had his deposit ready, which I handed back, and said to take a good look because it was the last he'd see of it, because I knew of his plan... Still have the model. I grew to love it.
@@om617yota8 Nah, didn't usually have issues. Dealt mostly with fellow Canadian Air Force guys, and one old vet in particular that flew in B-24s in Burma. (I refused to take anything for that one, he was such an amazing guy).
I woulda smashed it. I had that issue as a mechanic. Told people their car had multiple issues. And when they started to pull that card, I said HOLD ON! Ran and grabbed his first bill in cash and handed it to him.
Worked in a printshop where I gave the reality of orders being taken, and was later fired. The boss asked "can we print 10,000 shirts in 12 hours?" My response was "you arent able print 10,000 shirts in a week."
@@IrishAnonymous01 yeah but you don't know @nicolasortega9855's situation. They may not have a large capacity shop-partner in their area to partner with or have been burned by outsourcing before in the past.
When a manager asks you if you/your org can do something within a timeframe, the answer they want is ‘yes’ or ‘quicker than that’ - I was driven literally to insanity (mild insanity, as they go, massive panic attacks that ruined a decade of my life) by a boss and a management team who I repeatedly told that my two, then four, then six, then twelve person team *could not* do what they wanted in time, no matter what resources were thrown at me, because we’d started 12 or so months too late. It was hell, and I see it in so many places, it’s also why middle management is awful - in our org my eventual grade of departure was the unhappiest grade in the organisation, as it was at the top of the doers but below the managers who were no longer expected to do anything but manage. And I *do* think management is a real job, good managers, like good clients, are priceless. But it’s very rare in an organisation that telling the truth honestly is a virtue, I was constantly looked over for promotion and people who did literally no work (I was friends with them, one of them ‘helped’ me - I.E he translated and managed me for the boss who didn’t click with me, for her and he sat at his desk twiddling with his phone whenever I came to see him, and I was no saint for slacking off given the environment) were promoted because they talked and sounded like managers, they wrote good but essentially meaningless reports, they misrepresented on (government) stoplight checks and generally acted in a manner to support the status quo. I eventually left due to ill health after completing one half decade long project (they occurred every decade) and about three years from the second - which I’d told them they were *also* a year late on. That project - which cost over £100m and was budgeted due to cuts for £70m (which was impossible) - eventually took place a year later, due to Covid, and used none the the hard work I and whole teams had put in to develop our own system, which was supposed to be our pride and joy. They used another part of the government’s existing system, got worse results than other people using the same thing… and wrote all of it off to Covid. It’s endemic throughout all systems, but when money is on the line, there is a minimum amount of value. The only way you remove it is to radically alter our work culture from the standard post-Victorian / pseudo-American (or actually American) inspired ethos to one that is much more flat structured and gives all employees a stake, at least in my experience.
@@IrishAnonymous01 No, the BOSS should have outsourced the order, after being properly informed of their output capacity, by the guy running his print shop. Or the boss could have asked his printshop guy what sort of equipment he'd need and how many more employees to hire, before they could handle such an order. The guys working in the print shop's job is to crank out however many t-shirts they can, not run the boss's business for him. And for that matter, why didn't the boss have at least a rough idea how many shirts they could print in that time?
"Your client will ask you questions that will make you question if they have a grasp on reality" I'm a snake catcher, and this statement is engraved on my very bones.
@@daweaselgeek1430 Lots of people have it in their head that venomous and non-venomous species can cross breed to create some kind of Frankenstein species with superpowers. I had someone ask me if the python I was holding was able to melt steel with its venom.
Train maintenance engineer here. You wouldn't imagine how many weeks or even months it sometimes takes several experts from several companies, to find the cause for 1 train issue. Once you found it, fixing it often takes just an hour. And same as your clients, the upper management sometimes fails to understand why this 1 simple fix ended up costing them so much money. It's not the fix, it's knowing what to fix.
There's the classic story of the guy who comes in, taps the pipe or the machine or what have you in a specific spot and then bills for a thousand dollars. When asked why he's billing so much for such little labor, his response is, "You're paying for the experience that let me know that tapping that spot would fix the problem."
Oh god yes, I used to hate that as a painter/minor contracting ie (drywall, plaster repair and finish carpentry). After I figure material cost then factor in my time at the standard going rate only to be asked "Why do you want so much for such a simple job?" Well if it's that damn simple then do it yourself.
I recall seeing a sign at someone's art fair booth. It said something like "Yes you could make this yourself, but you're not going to". And from what I've seen it's true, anyone could buy all the tools, materials, and learn to do whatever, but most don't want to.
Man, it’s so nice that you actually took the time to actually answer that question instead of just saying “tell them to go elsewhere if they don’t want your services”
I do realize that clients are clients whatever your trade, when you're a freelancer, but it never stops striking me how everything Adam says about freelancing in _his_ field applies perfectly to _my_ field, software engineering.
I’ve had machinist friends that I used to ask if they could make something for me that in my mind seems simple. It wasn’t until I became a machinist that I understood the amount of effort I was asking my friends. I really feel bad now for having had asked them to do something for me.
Why feel bad? this may sound weird but follow witg me here; There are more "excutive officers" in the world then machinists. Not just CEO's, but the CEO's, the CFO's EEO's etc the leaders groups at the top are far more numerious than machinists. So why dont you get paid more then them? Your litterally more important. the answer; yours services have to compete with the hobbiest. Most people do the job in no small part because they love it, people go into more debt for thier machining hobby then corvettee nuts. Some of your friends at very least, no matter how grumpy they where, did it for fun anyway
It all comes from a place of ignorance and naiveté. People dont understand the job, understand everything that has to happen and how much time it takes. People dont respect the skilled trades, even though they are completely lacking in the specific skill.
Freelance cinematographer here. Always love seeing your videos about running a business and working with clients because they’re extremely insightful. (Especially because it reminds me that everyone in the industry deals with the same challenges.)
We had someone in to do a major project on our house. The estimate was literally ten times what I had imagined. The guy looked like he was very used to sticker shock. We were cordial, told him we’d think about it, and eventually decided that, yeah, it probably made sense given the amount of work it would take. One of the problems was, there were absolutely zero quotes of projected or completed work of that kind by any company that I could find online. If your work is expensive, and you are afraid of scaring away clients by putting out any info on prices, you may well scare away more people when the sticker shock comes. People at least need a ballpark to begin their imagining of how much this thing is worth to them before going through all of it with you.
I think this is more of a "we don't actually know even a ballpark number for this kind of job" I'm a manufacturing consultant who somehow ended up specialised in effectively being a GC for building or repairing factories When it comes to building a new factory, my rough ballpark guesses from requests like "i want to build a factory that makes gel pens on this land" are all within 5% of final prices on completed builds When it comes to repairing or adding onto a pre-existing operation, any real accuracy goes out the window until you have personally been on-site and made sure you got all the info you need. Last ballpark estimate i did was off by nearly 1800% because the stamping presses they used had destabilised the ground on the side where we were going to build.
Yep, unfortunately I’ve known a lot of people with frustration on both sides of this issue. On the client’s side, they may genuinely not know what all goes into it and (depending on what the job is or where it’s located), they may not be able to shop around and get multiple quotes, or actually know anybody who’s worked with that contractor (since even online reviews are pretty easily faked). So all they really know is they were just quoted a LOT of money for work by someone they don’t know (and sadly I’ve known more than a few people get ripped off or taken advantage of because there was only one person/place that responded or gave a quote, and the person turned out to be a scumbag or just did bad work). On the maker’s side, there’s so much experience, equipment, etc that can go into a fair price that the client usually doesn’t understand or realize (especially for large jobs).
@@hazen7645 and that's sort of a point i made accidently I didn't know why they put plastic under the roof in garages that were just meant to stop wind and rain. I thought i saved a pretty penny by not using it.
I've been in the building trades for 30 years and can tell you no 2 jobs in remodeling, repair and maintenance are the same and unique jobs aren't rare. My area has very very few residential homes with a concrete slab floor over the entire basement. We got a call from one such homeowner, they wanted to remodel the kitchen and bath. The kitchen was getting the sink and it's counter moved from the outside wall to an interior wall so a patio door could go in its place. The bathroom was to be relocated to a different area. Plus some other minor work. Well with the concrete slab floor the job required hiring an engineer, you aren't getting me to bore 3 new 6 inch drain, waste, vent pipe holes blindly. I gave the estimate for what they wanted, pending engineering. They client declined the work seconds after the engineer gave him his price. The point is that there is no way to put a representative price together for a job that we never knew existed. My estimate was free and valid for 90 days, the customer wasn't harmed by me, their home, their desires were the cause of their sticker shock. And it had some to do with HGTV guestimates, see they were looking to modernize it to increase the value in anticipation of selling, some HGTV show or another gave representative kitchen and bath remodel costs along with representative resale value increases. We did give them some estimates for less intensive remodels. Don't trust representative job costs, when you see a kitchen renovation that involves removing a wall and you see the job cost $15,000 and you have a kitchen of similar size with a similar wall that you want removed and you want similar finishes and your contractor estimates $23,000 that can all be down to you have a load bearing wall you want removed and maybe it contains the upstairs plumbing, electric, HVAC ductwork. Maybe the other job didn't contain some of those features. And with media like HGTV always remember those shows are generally paid promotions for the products used. They are trying to entice you. Their sponsors reap the rewards the contractors who emulate the shows contractors benefit, but beyond seeing what might be possible for your situation, ideas, seeing what types of home widget appliances are out there and seeing how hot or not stainless and stone are you don't benefit financially from that type of media. Falling for it's charm can cost you more.
I genuinely appreciate your unique perspective on interactions that 99% of the world would consider negative or harsh for the brutal honesty that they are. Recognizing the value in that honesty and shining your unique light on these types of interactions is the kind of perspective that I just absolutely seeing from you.
I don't think you can really apply that to this. These vendors have dealt with many other clients, and yet they are all saying this one is unusually difficult. I'd be inclined to believe that he is in fact unusually difficult. Jamie just happened to mesh well with him.
I did electronics for years, and had one client who objected to the cost of a repair because "all you did was replace the fuse." Only - the client was a medical facility whose X-Ray wall stand (the chest X-Ray thing) had stopped working. It had stopped because their technicians had dropped too many of the lead markers (L, R, etc) into the thing, and shorted it out. It was late on a Saturday night, they were 150 miles away, and it was snowing like crazy. So, yeah, they paid well over $500 to have me replace a 15-cent fuse. When my boss said they were objecting, I wrote it up line-by-line: transportation four hours @ $75/hr (double time night plus weekend rate). 1 hour minimum charge for being on site: $75. Replacing fuse: $0.15. $124.85 - Knowing which fuse to replace.
I repair PCs and Notebooks. I had to replace a BIOS Battery after checking some of the hardware because the Notebook stopped powering on. The customer did not want to pay the 60€ fixed price plus 5€ for the battery because it was "not much to do".
"Knowing which fuse to replace." THIS. This is why Tradespeople are worth their salt. Yes, not all, but for most it is the experience you are paying for. For example, it would have been $400 to have my dryer fixed in an hour. Sure, I could have, but instead, I spent 2 days disassembling it and locating the issue. A $06 (but cost me 20 since I needed it then) magnetic ignition solenoid switch. Was my time over 2 days worth it versus hiring someone? For me, I have no life so it was a worthwhile experience, but most people would have jumped for the repair person. Especially when they saw the number of screws that needed to be reinstalled along with realigning the framing.
I am the lead dev for a tailor made SCM my company provides for a medium sized logisitcs corporation. Our customer should get their advanced shipping notices from their clients as automatically generated files that are then handled automatically - once in a blue moon there are circumstances that make a client decide to manually generate those files and often important details are overlooked, data is imported incorrectly, the whole process grinds to a halt and somewhere on the other side of the planet containers cannot be transferred and rack up fees. As they operate globally this can happen anytime of the day - even outside office hours... We had a few very urgent calls in the middle of the night that lead to someone being rung out of bed for applying a 15-45min fix to the issues saving 100k worth of fees, still we cannot agree upon actually having someone on standby 24/7. As our customer put it: "We do not need someone on standby 24/7 - we just need someone who is there when we have a problem" - needless to say it is almost impossible to get them to pay for more than an hour even in such an emergency.
The industry I work in is civil engineering and architecture design firms. We would get clients that were just really difficult to work with. Sometimes they know it but are willing to pay extra for it, which it's fine. The biggest issues are when they're unreasonable about price. My favorite story was about a builder who thought we were asking too much to make some single family home plans and decided that they wanted to take it back and shop around for a better deal. They did, but flash forward 2 years later we got those plans again. Apparently they were unable to find a better deal than what we were offering, which was both hilarious and relieving because until then I didn't know if we truly had competitive prices (the company I worked for prided themselves in accuracy & customer client relationships rater than the best deal so that's why I was surprised).
should have refused to service them after that force them to pay more somewhere else. sorry we cannot waste time with you because of what you did last time
I would hear things like "this guy will do it cheaper" or "the kid down the street . . ." (my personal favorite). I never flinched. I just replied, "Yeah, there is always a kid down the street. Have a nice day." Then I either walked away or ended the call.
@@ARockRaider long ago I worked at an electrical wholesaler. Sparkies would come in and say "the competition has it cheaper". At a seminar I met the guys doing my job at the competition. The sparkies said the same thing to him.
In IT there's always some kid somewhere in the bosses family who is "interested in computers" (son or nephew or whatever), who seems to have significant input into any IT decision for the business. Probably has no commercial experience, or training or any kind (beyond maybe building their own gaming PC), but they'll object to buying proper commercial grade networking gear because you can buy a cheapo residential Wifi Router for under $200. I once had someone call me after a family member built their business a database which had significant failings, then moved interstate and was unable to help them.
@JimOHalloran, were you tempted to say, "OH, repairing a system we quoted you fairly, that know doesn't work? Cost is now 2 x what it would have been."
@@m.maclellan7147 There's two components to every price. 1) The component determined by the cost of the job, with applicable markups (ie. if I think it'll take a week, that's $x worth of time). Then 2) A "tax" that makes the job worth doing. If I think the job will be especially interesting, or I'll learn skills that'll be useful down the road, then I might quote cheaper to try and win the work. But if I sense you're going to be a hassle (like making me justify every decision I make to your 14 year old nephew), that "tax" component might be a significant addition. I once had a client who would eventually pay, but I knew I'd need to spend a few hours chasing them for payment on every invoice. So their "tax" on every job included the cost of the time I knew I'd spend collecting payment. Cleaning up someone else's mess is almost always more expensive than it would otherwise have been, but they often make good clients, so I wouldn't "tax" them just for not talking to me first (although it might be tempting).
"Pushing a few buttons" Holy crap this just triggered me so hard! I was having this very conversation not 3 days ago with my mother who I was doing some home refurb work for and she said to me "well all you have to do is..." and I about lost it. In my many years of graphic design and other areas of work I have been told "well all you have to do is..." about a half million times by people who dont understand how Ive spent a lifetime learning skills in order to be able to so all these things I am able to do. They dont understand the decades of failing and learning it took to be able to do these things so effortlessly and that its not a "all I have to do is..." situation. Ive bled to learn the things I know and it wasnt easy and it drivers me nuts when people try to devalue work because they dont understand it. If "all I have to do is..." then it must be super easy and you should probably do it yourself. UGH!
At work I had two managers say they could make a large plate 1/4" thick flat. I told them it was difficult. They told me they could do it. I told them, cool show me. They both walked away. Lol
@@MacMashPotato The stock response to that is "Well I have more _important_ things to spend my time on. Things that require real expertise and experience." Sadly, the fact is that if these lines of thinking were easy to refute or break, they'd rarely exist, because they'd be refuted or broken quickly. The reason those reactions and exchanges are so common is because there are entire chains of false logic and reasoning behind them. Sturdy and internally-consistent models of 'how the world works', that are often passed around as 'deep wisdom' by those who are too immersed in their own cultural bubble. People in our society can very easily fall into a pattern of thinking where the people who do what they do and know what they know are seen as smart and hard-working, while the vast majority of others are seen as dumb or lazy or ignorant. Or at least, 'not up to the same standard'. Pretty much everyone succumbs to that sort of thinking at least once in their life, and whether or not each person is able to climb back out of it depends a lot more on how much their peers and environment reinforce that unhealthy reasoning, mare than any sort of personal aptitude.
I'm a lapidarist and silversmith. I enjoyed this video. The lesson I found hardest to learn was "not every customer is your customer". It's OK to let them go if they're being rude or silly.
I've been doing freelance work for many years, and I get really annoyed when someone diminishes what I do while needing what I do to be done. Pushing a few important buttons that you don't know how to push is not free. It's called work, and we get paid for work. I'm an artist, and I've had clients want free artwork because I got it done fast. "It hardly took you any time at all."
Noeland: "It hardly took you any time at all." To the client: God yes I can do in 2 or 3 days what would have taken you 4 to 6 weeks to do. But that's because I have the tools and years of experience to use them that you don't.
As I’ve learned in the auto shops I’ve worked in- you’re paying for the experience and the tools that have taken me this long to acquire- neither is free. My good techs give out flat pricing. The time it takes to do something is irrelevant if it’s done correctly, within budget and time constraints.
I remember a locksmith saying that when he was younger and less experienced it would always take him awhile to pick a lock, and sometimes he'd damage it in the process. But customers never had a problem paying the bill because they saw how hard it was. Years later, he was able to get in much quicker and rarely did any damage doing so, but some customers didn't want to pay as much because "it's easy, it didn't take long at all". Of course it's easier when you've been doing it for years! That's the point, you're not just paying for the job, but the training and years of experience that enables the job to be done.
"If it's so easy then be my guest to do it yourself next time, but this is what you agreed to pay me to do it for you." I work in fused glass, and it's so funny when I bring in a group of scouts or a hen party to make small ornaments or jewelry in my workshop. I cut glass bases for them to choose and they put smaller bits on it however they like. I don't charge very much for each one individually, but it adds up nicely over a large group. They say "Wow! this is so easy! why do they charge so much at craft fairs for a little suncatcher or one necklace?" or "This is so fun I want to start this for myself, how much does it take to get into this ~hobby~?" And I I take down my jar of red frit that has a $40 price tag on it (red is more $$ than most colors) and I point to the shelf loaded with 40-50 jars and I say, "Getting started is the hard part." Then I pull out the 2 inch square of dichro glass and say, "And this costs $20, that's why you only get one of the special dots (made with the bits, edges and off cuts). So some of it is the materials cost. But while I'll be able to put all of your work into the kiln at once, and run all 20 pieces through in one run, it will cost me about $40 in electricity, and the kiln itself cost in the thousands. Plus, while all 10 of you made a piece or two in the 2 hours you were here, there's only one of me, so if I were making things to sell at a craft fair, I'd have to spend 20-30 hours on one load. And you know that what you make, you'll like, but if I'm making for the general public to buy, most of my stuff won't sell, but I've already spent the money and time making it."
"For two days' labour, you ask two hundred guineas?" "No, I ask it for the experience of a lifetime." ~ James MacNeill Whistler, plaintiff in a libel action in the 1880's Also see the story of invoicing for knowing where to tap.
Thank you so much for not just talking other people's opinions of a person at face value. I've gotten so screwed by that before. I stood up to my gymnastics coach to defend an injured teammate (who literally made a hobby out of trying to get me in trouble no less) and she got mad. When she left and we got a new coach I introduced myself all nicely and got "Ohhhh, so *you're* Waffles" with this "I just smelled shit" look on her face. I would get in trouble for things that weren't my responsibility, weren't my fault, and that I wasn't even present for. Like "Yes Coach, I totally pushed Maddy at practice yesterday when I was at a memorial service halfway across the state". One of my teammates (actually the injured one I defended) fell on top of me giving me a black eye, and then ran to the coach claiming I punched her in the back of the head. Coach comes over screaming at me while I'm literally curled in a ball crying because a skull just impacted my face. One of my teammates who had seen the whole thing defended me and the coach refused to believe her. Like yes Coach, I punched someone who is 1.5 feet shorter than me in the bottom back of their skull with my eyesocket. Despite my eye socket being incredibly red, she still believed the other kid.
As a former vet tech I can say this attitude and thinking happens in this field too. It's infuriating, demeaning and scary when you're trying to see past it to help the animal in spite of the owner.
I've consulted as an engineer on and off for the past 25 years and everything you said maps 1:1 to my experience. I've often been heard to mutter, "clients be crazy" - not loud enough that they can hear me...but yeah, you get some personalities out there. Good Stuff!!!
I think a lot of people have trouble being firm in their pricing because they don't actually know what their own pricing should be. So then when a client says "thats too expensive" you doubt your own estimate and think maybe they're actually right.
The machine you bought to press the buttons has its costs, too. Your time invested in the process costs, too. Transportation costs of getting the material should also be considered, etc. And, you also have to make some profit to invest further and to cover your costs of living. So, yeah, you set a fair price, the customer may say it's too high, it's all good. All a matter of finding a solution that works for both of you.
Best response for people that doubt your estimates. "You're right it is expensive, but a small part of that is my actual labor. The cost comes from my experience and the fact that you know the thing you're paying me for is going to come out exactly as you want it to. You could go with someone cheaper, but you'd be constantly worried if they're going to do this right."
Adam (Mr. Savage), It is really amazing to observe someone (you) stopping in mid sentence to think and make sure what you are about to say is okay with you! I'm known for doing the same thing, much to the chagrin of anyone listening to me. So...
This is super-timely for me right now-I'm currently renegotiating my contract with my main client, my rates are going up, it's going... how it's going... and I needed to hear this right now. Thank you sir.
"yeah but it's going to cost you" is absolutely the way to respond. You're setting up a few expectations IMMEDIATELY. 1. I know what I'm doing 2. I know what it's going to take to do it. 3. I will charge you what it's worth and you can take it or leave it. Those SIMPLE words will eliminate a bunch of unnecessary back and forth later.
I had a customer wanted modifications to his machine control software. It was a big job and I told our sales department it would be over £30K. The customer said he only had a budget of £25K and asked our salesman to look at it again. I spent three more days looking in more detail and said it would be close to £31K. The customer was insistent and demanded a detailed itemised quote. After three weeks we came up with a quote just under £32K. The customer still only had £25K so our salesman had to tell him we weren't going to pay to work for him. My three weeks was a total loss but at least we didn't waste any more...
Your words are almost identical to my own thoughts when it comes to my chosen field. I repair musical instruments and it never ceases to boggle my mind some of the questions I have been asked!!
Love the content of this video, I’m a middle aged, self employed carpenter. After I had poured obsessive effort into being very proficient in my craft, I had to then be humbled by having to learn how to sell my skills, learn how to charge and how to market myself. I’m still a student in all of that at this point. However, I learned some sales skills that changed my life in that I learned how to listen. How to deeply listen as to what the project is, why they want or need it, how long they have been wanting or needing it. Listening to what is important to them in the process of serving them. That is something that really leaves a high water mark with people, that are about to have someone in their home for weeks or months pension the size of the project. As well as learning how to honestly communicate with people so they are buying you. Not the version of you, you think that they want, for a price that will compensate you to bring your absolute A game.
So many great comments on here, and this is my favorite so far. True deep listening is crucial for success. As a professional it’s very hard to remember what it was like when you knew nothing about the subject matter. A communication gap naturally evolves between the professional and the client, so when you practice “tactical empathy” and active listening you automatically set yourself on a course for success. When I was younger I failed at a job that involved communication under pressure. The experience was transformative for me and I enjoy pursuing improved negotiation, problem solving, and deescalation through communication. Now my communication failures are infrequent enough that when they happen I can forgive myself and learn the lesson more quickly than I did in that prior life. But getting back to your comment, it truly pleases me the way in which you describe communication-listening as the key to your success and, I would guess, satisfaction.
I'm a software developer. If my clients saw how little time I actually spend writing code, they would wonder why they are paying so much. The vast majority of my time is spent thinking and researching solutions. That doesn't look like "work" and is very hard to measure. The actual typing in of the code is the smallest part of the overall job.
And now that you have Microsoft Copilot, you spend even less time coding. The cost of software development is about to get much cheaper, and that's a good thing.
I've hired out a number of commissions for art and instrumental wok for RUclips and personal projects. I always try to be as patient and understanding as possible since yes- I am hiring someone to do work I absolutely could not do myself! I've even had to tell friends I'm not going to let them do work for me for free or serious discounted rates. Never undervalue your work since you're taking your time to do something for someone else
For the 3D print "pressing a few buttons" as well as other "Maker" jobs, you are paying for the experience. Yes, I could just press a button, print, and roll the dice. But, I will inspect the item, orient it correctly for best strength or surface appearance if that matters more, apply correct supports, and make sure it adheres to the bed. Then there is the clean-up, post-processing, add any inserts or colorants placed on it, possibly sealing the item for extra UV resistance. I know, any Trades job is the same way. It is more the experience and the know-how to fix something if it goes wrong or to adapt to the situation. But since the question was 3D specifically, I explained quickly in case others were stumped as well.
Started laughing when you mentioned coding. The first 20 years of my career was writing embedded control software. I had a very difficult problem to solve once, and a guy who might have written some single threaded BASIC said to me with great confidence "Well, all gotta to do is ...". I had to turn and walk away, else I might have said something very unprofessional.
Over the years I've become pretty good at laying out to a client /why/ stuff they imagine being easy will take x amount of hours, with a 20% over/under margin of error. Having done basic tech support for years before becoming a developer taught me valuable tech explanation skills using metaphors. The best clients are the ones who say like "yeah I don't care how; that's why we seek expertise, and your prices align with other offers. Being able to communicate, though, is why we'll give *you* the go ahead even though you're 5% over the best offer."
Needed to hear this today. I am changing things up a bit going from what I call reimagined makeovers to full custom builds that come purely from my imagination. The new builds of course are 3 to 4 times higher. New clients that want a custom piece pay right up. The pieces I build just to sell pevious clients or followers seem to be blown away at the pricing. Then others say I am way under pricing for my one off pieces. Sometimes I survive piece to piece so I hate to turn down work or a offer on a piece but I also hate to think I am cutting myself short. I want to be at a place where I can say this is the price take it or leave it but at the same time there is nothing else out there like my stuff to compare prices or see what sells and what doesn’t. So I can get caught up afraid to over quote someone’s expectations and lose a job but also caught up wondering how much money I am cutting myself out of.
I always enjoy listening to your responses. I am a Special Ed Teacher who does Art, Photography, and wood crafts as a hobby. Whenever I have had people, usually friends and coworkers, ask me to make something for them, I would have no idea what to tell them for a price. I would research it and use the figures I would find out, but they would always tell me it was too much. I usually undercut the expected price, but still worried I was asking too much. I made some small pieces last year and hoped to sell them and make a little extra money. A manager of an Art store in town gave me a formula of $1/square inch; but the pieces didn't sell like I thought they would.
Love your QTIP response to the “pushing a few buttons” question. For years leading teams of video producers, I’ve always likened what we do in the creative world to what a magician does. If you don’t understand how a magician works, and you see them produce a coin out of thin air, you may be tempted to assume they could also produce a Ferrari out of thin air. Although the skills necessary to do those 2 things are different by an insanely wide margin, an ignorant (at best) or entitled (at worst) client couldn’t possibly understand this if they have no frame of reference. It’s not my job to “teach them a lesson” but it may be my opportunity to educate them if I can simply find a way to QTIP, graciously provide them with a frame of reference, and then be at peace with whatever outcome knowing that I did all that I could.
AND you have the machine to push the button on, in the shop to house the machine, with utilities, taxes, and insurance to pay, using time that's worth something to you, and so on and so forth...
Violin maker here. Years ago I had a client that had a expensive cello bow (worth @$10k) with a stripped eyelet. The part wholesale is about $5, but takes about half an hour to install, especially on quirky old and valuable antiques where nothing is square or straight. The client blew a gasket when I charged him $50. Calmly explained that he was only paying for my time and that the part was free in my shop and that he stood there for 40 minutes while I worked and showed the process of minutely making adjustments until it was right, while charging him for half an hour of time, my standard rate for the job. He went on to trash me about town, my other clients did back me up. I still never see him and it’s a blessing, nobody has time for that!!
Customers not only don’t know how you do your work or why it costs what it does, they often don’t even know what the solution to their own need is. I get asked (electrician) for all kinds of odd stuff. When I hear what it’s for there is often simpler or more elegant answers and I try to convey them to the client.
As a plumber's client, I had the opposite experience. I had to tell him to replace the pressure regulator even though he didn't think that was the issue. Of course I was an engineering student at the time
A a person who was a custom picture framer and gilder, I understand your experience with the glass blower. If you have never done something before as in making a hand gilded frame from dimensional lumber, people will respond with the comment that "it is just 4 pieces of wood". Yes it is; but is is much more. It took me x years to learn what I do it correctly the first time I start a new project. A persons training and experience in "I have learned 10,000 ways not to do something" is more important. There is also the knowledge of being able to correct things on the fly if something goes wrong. That knowledge is why I am worth $xx.oo for this job. You have to feed and support yourself and your family just like everyone else as well as paying for the overhead of your shop. You as a craftsperson are work every penny of what you charge. At the same time you are not knocking the client who drives to your facility in their $150,000 car, or for what they charge as they receive from their endeavors.
Ha, you are so spot on about clients thinking we just push a button and "poof" we produce products. I own an embroidery business and I've had a client state that very thing when they were watching our machines in action. I had a machine that didn't have anything running on it and I invited them back to push the button to make their embroidery logo. I do try to educate them on the processes that we have to go through to digitize, design, and what we have to do to make it work properly, prior to pushing the magic button.
I love how you handle things when people don't quite understand why work costs X amount of dollars. I wish I could be as calm about it. When someone balks at a price for a thing with me I break down my cost in supplies, time, cost of tools I will need and if they aren't happy I will gladly give them a list of everything needed and links to RUclips tutorials. Either they come back and pay the asking price understanding why or they leave me the heck alone. Either way I am happy.
6:58 and that’s the main problem with clients. You’ll do a free estimate and spend sometimes hours on it and they change their mind which they were gonna do in the first place.
The answer to "why am I paying you so much to 'push a few buttons'?" is "you're not paying me to 'push a few buttons,' you're paying me because I know which buttons to push"
I was telling my mom how impressed i was with current video game devlopments in a popular video game I like, I'm all impressed, she said they have a computer that does it all for them. I stopped talking to her about that stuff completely.
I love your channel. You're the George Carlin of "Tool Time" and fabrication . Thanks for the humor that makes me laugh out loud . Your ideas about arranging your shop tools have given me ideas for mine. Your outlook on life is profound . Thank you so much !
"Don't take their lack of knowledge personally" is fantastic advice and really easy to follow if you consider the following: If they knew what you did (or if they knew what was involved), they'd probably be doing it themselves! Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance. Furthermore, if a client wants a second opinion, you cannot take that personally either. If you're confident in your work and your price, you should actually encourage shopping around. If your product/service is truly worth what you're charging, they'll come back.
Many moons ago in a world of residential electric. I had a client ask why it cost 180.00 to push the button on the GFCI outlet in his garage. My response, you're not paying me to push the button, you're paying me for the knowledge to know what button to push.
@@Tobester_McDonkey I mean you could be a bit more honest and say it's a tax for not knowing how to check if a breaker has been tripped. Am I crazy or is that not like, extremely basic knowledge along with checking if the fuse has gone on an applicance?
Some people have too much money, they get charged. Operating costs, travel, fuel, rolling stock. The old WWII veteran or widow will get a break or free service. If your house is over half a million and there's a g wagon or new sports car, you're paying full price.
Yep. Had a similar incident. Client calls up complaining that the AV system isn't working. From his description, we tell him to make sure that the equipment rack is powered on. He (very angry) says that OF COURSE IT'S TURNED ON. We then tell him that there will be a minimum $100 charge for time and materials along with a trip charge. Site was a 2 hour round trip. He wants us there IMMEDIATELY. We send a tech. He walks in, turns the rack on, leaves 5 minutes later. Easiest money that we made that day.
Yup, the price isn’t about the time spent on that job. It’s the thousands of hours you spent learning to do the job. If they wanted a monkey to do the job they should’ve hired one.
I learned the same thing. Worked with a client when I was making studio scale models, was warned about him by two people. I was told nightmares about how he always begins nicely, and turns bad and turns really bad. I still work with him, he is a joy to deal with on every level. I have never had one issue with him. He never has not paid me, and never had any complaint of my work. I think sometimes we can be the problem, and I think the reason they had issues, was they listened to others about him and walked into it with preconceived issues that might not have been there.
You're right; I'm just pushing a few buttons. What you're paying for is me knowing which buttons to push, what order to push them, and when. And you'll be delighted with the result.
Lots of great advice. A note about dealing with other professionals with whom you share responsibilities though. It helps to be up front about what your role is and what they can expect you to contribute. It’s just as important as being up front about cost and scope with a paying client. Just as if you low balled a price to someone for whom you are doing work, you can also take on more work than you are required to in a group setting. There is a correlation between setting boundaries and setting prices.
These lessons apply to many disciplines. Maybe you do this, but at some point in your busy schedule you should give a seminar on this topic. Very interesting and helpful.
brilliant work Adam and so honest , i teach people to operate cranes , i was one told that i only teach people to pick thinks up and put them back down , yea but picking something up that weight 100 tonne or more is not just picking something up , i love people sometimes.
O.M.G. ! That is Cranes up in the Air ?! That is like a dance of physics, 3D space evaluation, no fear of heights, knowledge about local weather & and it's effects & just BALLSY ! LOL ! My hats off to you. I don't even like being around Cranes on the off chance that I get the ONLY stupid/incompetent operator, lol ! But, considering how rare accidents are, there must be some stringent training!
“Let them go”… Best advice Adam. The minute I sense corner cutting, I bail… “I’m not the guy for your project, here is a list of shops in town that can help.” I get 10% referral for passing on potential headache clients. I usually build things that have never been built before; money is just a commodity that anyone can make. It is a privilege to have me as your fabricator, not the other way around.
As someone who has worked with his hands half his life... my default response to questions on cost tends to be "The cost is a combination of the result, and the accumulated knowledge and skill to achieve the result."
I do think it does occasionally benefit everyone to explain the bare bones of the process if it's one the average person may not be familiar with. Like explaining that fabricating something isn't "just pressing a few buttons" but that it requires you to create the file/template for the machine(s) being used first. When a person commissions a piece of clothing, they'll understand (usually) that it requires the maker to draw a pattern, make a mock-up to ensure the pieces fit together correctly and to adjust measurements before work on the final product is started. But, obviously, this comes with the caveats of some people just won't care regardless and you shouldn't waste your breath and time and/or having to constantly explain reduces the amount of time spent actually working. It's why we finally created a document that goes over the basic steps of our project and process. We can say "Our process takes 8 steps. They are (names steps). We have this document that explains each step in more detail. Take a look and let us know if you have more questions." Has saved us SO MUCH time.
I've had client be soo thankful for a call with me saying to them : "Don't do it then, you don't need this if you don't have the budget." helping them realizing that the cost was what it was no matter where they would go. They ran with the quote to knocks on other doors and realized that I was not only in the right bracket, but also a little cheaper. They came back happy about it, ended up not doing the gig, and taking alternative approach for their issues. Ultimately they sent lots of clients my way just for the fact that I wasn't gonna get them to do something if it's not needed.
Adam, thank you for remembering the dressmakers. All to often it is forgotten as a trade because of grandma doing it in the past and made in asia prices today. We do feel forgotten a lot.
As a carpenter/small business owner, I was just talking about this. Never explain or justify your prices to customers, tell them that's your price and leave it at that. I've even had to raise the price for someone trying to get me to lower a bid, I should say at this point I will in no way take that contract.
Agreed, and a point Adam doesn't raise: You often can't spend the time educating your customer why and how --- but THAT'S NOT THE CUSTOMER'S JOB! Their job is to give precise specs and decide if they want it at your price or not, from you or from someone else. That said I will to an extent explain/justify a price, if needed, by highlighting where a big part goes while it looks like a corner ripe for cutting --- then they understand either immediately, or after they burn their fingers on a lower quote for a shoddy job & come back to you to redo it.
There's an acronym for that. Don't JADE (Justify Argue Defend or Explain). It's not globally applicable but when people are being unreasonable, it's a good place to go.
@@Laocoon283 I think you can be honest to the client without yielding on your standards. I personally try not to be gruff, but I do let them know what I'm doing and how much it is. It is a balance though to be sure.
a friend of mine once went to repair a piece of industrial equipment. when he presented the bill, the boss was furious at the price "for removing a cover and adjusting a few screws" and demanded a detailed bill. The bill details were along the line of "-removing cover and adjusting screws 10$ -knowledge of which cover to remove and screw to adjust 90$"
You apparently don't realize this is an old anecdote, and you didn't tell it very well. It goes like this: Shortly after an engineer retires, a machine at his former factory stops working. They try everything they can do to fix it, to no avail. Finally, the boss calls up the engineer and asks him to come in and fix it. The engineer agrees to do so as a paid consultant. He comes in, walks around the machine, looks at a few things, takes out a hammer, and whacks the machine. It whirrs into life. The engineer present the boss with a bill for $5000. The horrified boss says, "This is ridiculous! What did you even do? I need an itemized bill." The engineer provides a new invoice that states: Hitting machine with a hammer: $5.00 Knowing where to hit the machine: $4,995
I once went on a quote with my business partner on a 65' maple tree, The potential customer asked for a ballpark figure. I came back at $3200.00 He flipped out and said I have a guy that will do it for $800.00 After we looked at a few more trees he wanted removed we told him we would send him a quote. $3200 for that single tree was reasonable profit being it was 10' away from his house, limited space to work within and being on a major city street where the tree was 15' from the road. On our way back to the office I told my partner to quote that single tree @ $6400.00 He asked me if I had lost my mind, I replied No, That guy won't pay $1800 for it and I don't want to deal with him. Sometimes you have to know when to walk away.
In regards to not taking it personally, I think it's important to remember that everybody has gotten ripped off at some point, and that's naturally going to make them question prices. It doesn't mean you should cut them any slack, but remember that most of them aren't being assholes on purpose, they're being careful.
Adam, Reminds me of a job I took back in the a late 90’s coding a website for a client. They were already on the older side of the spectrum, but I knew them personally and took the job despite my internal misgivings. Their responsibility was to provide me with the content to plug into the website design I was providing, and I made a beautiful cutting edge design that was awaiting content. They kept wanting to see results, and I’d show them what I had and even went so far as to use greeking and sample images to show them what they had, but their lack of understanding lead them to want more, but kept providing content that was intended for down the road. After explaining to them, making certain things is like building a house, I need the materials for the foundation before I can put the roof on. It didn’t matter, I ended up walking away from that job with no regrets. The ability to quit is the most important skill a maker can have, possibly only after the ability to say no in the first place.
Often they also do not take into account that you had to buy the tools necessary to make or do that job and they do not come cheap. I spend hours finding wood, cutting it and figuring out the best way to turn it into a bowl or platter and then sharpening the gouges and turning the wood and applying the right sanding and finishes and then they want squawk when I put a price of $40 on the bowl. I get about $5 an hour for my work!
For the people who ask "why does it cost so much if all you're going to do is push a few buttons?" The cost isn't in pushing the buttons, it's in knowin WHICH buttons to push and in WHAT order to push them. I designed a very simple, 1" tall toy soldier and it had well over 50 individual parts and those parts had to be oriented in a very certain way. That's what makes the cost go up.
As someone who has run a one man industrial design and sales company for over 25 years I can confirm that what Adam says here is pure gold. Learn to read your customers. Build relationships. In time 80% of your business will come from 20% of your customers. Be honest with those customers. I have had them come to me with a budget and a request and I have torpedoed a big sale by showing them how to do it for a quarter of what they thought it would cost. Play the long game. When you make a mistake, eat it. Never go back for more money. I have had suppliers do that to me and I remember. I know my customers would do the same. I have made more than my share of mistakes, but I have never screwed anybody. That counts. Good customers will accept mistakes if corrected. Mistakes corrected promptly are a bonus. They will not accept being shafted. One more thing: Screwing customers is the second fastest way to go out of business. The fastest way is to screw your suppliers. Whether supplier or customer, we all talk with our peers about you.
I did some CGI some years ago for a guy who was a complete pain -he constantly gave the wrong description of what he wanted and then asked me why I did it the wrong way -he also became invisible for weeks and impossible to reach.
@tested @7:30 Thank you very much for this comment that I heard today. When/if you ever read this and the significance of who/what has come to fruition, you will get a nice little chuckle that you sir gave encouragement while I was working on resolving a huge discovery. I needed that statement.
The same things happened to me all the time working in IT. Management had no idea how the work was done, but judged peoples work by how important the client was and how much they liked the programmer.
That scenario where a client is surprised at a quote or cost happens frequently with musicians, quoting live performance pricing to non-musicians. Just because we love what we do doesn’t mean we shouldn’t get paid for it. It’s a profession, and a highly skilled one at that, not a hobby.
Years ago, I worked on sports cars (MGs, Sprites, etc) out of my house. I got a call from someone who was looking have the carbs on his MG setup. I gave him a price and he went off about what I was charging. He couldnt understand how I could charge so much money when no parts were involved, on and on like that. I sent him down the road. Two days later, his car was on the side of the road. He took it to a guy who was just starting out, and didn't understand the S.U. carbs these cars have. I stopped and asked if he needed any help, and he told me to shove it basically. The worst part was I saw that car on a lot, and it sat there for months. One day I stopped to check it out. Opened the hood, did some adjustments and the car fired up just fine. Bought that one for $300. Drove it for a few years.
With thanks to Tested members Silver Defender and GearsAndBricks for their questions and support! Join this channel to support Tested and get access to perks, like asking Adam questions:
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I wish you would just stop saying "like and subscribe" like a desperate newb RUclipsr.... /s
"Why does it cost so much?"
Me: "The Hardware that gets the job done isn't free, the Property the work is done in isn't free, the food you eat to live to do the work isn't free, the Electricity is sure as hell not free, the Water isn't free, the cost of learning the skills you use to get the job done isn't free (Go ahead peoples, 'push a few buttons' without knowin what ya doin with it... see how fast things go comically wrong.), the paychecks of the Workforce isn't free, and ya better believe the Resource Cost isn't free." (Edit: Oh, also the Clothes ya wear aren't free. :P )
My condolences Adam and Team... sounds like some of the Clients ya have to put up with are the kinda peeps that also believe in idiotic things like Supermarket Meat that comes from "Magic Meat Faeries" and the like... 🙄
Some people inc adamsmown family have said terrible terrible things about Adam...but anyone whose met Adam or knows him will tell you hes not that guy. So listen to other people but then go see for yourself.
Everyone has a vision of what they hope to achieve. The wise balance that with what the universe can do.
Let me tell you brother or sister that the universe doesn't ask how can I make this all work amazingly. Nope it says how can I make this go hard and it will always think of something you didn't just to humble us. No matter how mega-brained you think you are.
Great Advice 👍
The “you’re just pushing a few buttons” response is much worse when it comes from a clueless supervisor or manager that you’re actually employed by.
It's not just "pushing a few buttons"... it's knowing which buttons to press, in what order, how often, and how many times. As well as how much material to use, and what proportions of which color (not to mention finding consistent dye lots!) at what temperature. Quality assurance is infinitely more important than quality control.
The worst is bar none IT.
Everything is working: "What the hell are we paying you for?!"
Everything is on fire: "What the hell are we paying you for?!"
The best response to that is, "Ok, you do it."
Imagine this situation in machine designing. The most work is that what's done under the surface. Filling out Meta-Data to make the part or assembly useful in other constructions, material selection, tolerances, this list is endless. But Chefs only see when you are rotating colourful pieces on the screen
@MMuraseofSandvich "do you know what this says/means/does?"
(shows them code)
"That's what I thought"
Something that worked great for me back in my freelance designer days was, “you aren’t paying for the button pushing, you are paying for someone to care about this project in the same way you do, and will put in that amount of attention you would but with the skills you don’t have.”
Hey @joepatbob are there any other great advice you could give for designers considering freelancing as myself? Thank you!
I remember from a previous Q&A where Jamie had told Adam to "Make them go away" when dealing with a difficult client. I've built models for people, and had a few that were repeat customers. I had one guy that I heard was telling others that he was going to talk me down on the model when I was delivering it (I got a deposit). On delivery day, he did just that. Stood there admiring it and going over the details, then goes, "Well..." I had his deposit ready, which I handed back, and said to take a good look because it was the last he'd see of it, because I knew of his plan... Still have the model. I grew to love it.
Hope you changed your deposit policy to "non refundable".
@@om617yota8 Nah, didn't usually have issues. Dealt mostly with fellow Canadian Air Force guys, and one old vet in particular that flew in B-24s in Burma. (I refused to take anything for that one, he was such an amazing guy).
@@Blowinshiddup Great, glad to hear it was unneeded.
That is stupid should have demanded the full amount when finding out his plan waste of money taking it to him.
I woulda smashed it.
I had that issue as a mechanic.
Told people their car had multiple issues.
And when they started to pull that card, I said HOLD ON!
Ran and grabbed his first bill in cash and handed it to him.
Worked in a printshop where I gave the reality of orders being taken, and was later fired. The boss asked "can we print 10,000 shirts in 12 hours?" My response was "you arent able print 10,000 shirts in a week."
Amen
They wanted 3 million stainless casted+cnc parts per week and gave me a $800k budget
@@IrishAnonymous01 yeah but you don't know @nicolasortega9855's situation. They may not have a large capacity shop-partner in their area to partner with or have been burned by outsourcing before in the past.
@IrishAnonymous01 depends if they were authorized to do that since sometimes you can get in trouble for doing things right but not how they wanted to
When a manager asks you if you/your org can do something within a timeframe, the answer they want is ‘yes’ or ‘quicker than that’ - I was driven literally to insanity (mild insanity, as they go, massive panic attacks that ruined a decade of my life) by a boss and a management team who I repeatedly told that my two, then four, then six, then twelve person team *could not* do what they wanted in time, no matter what resources were thrown at me, because we’d started 12 or so months too late.
It was hell, and I see it in so many places, it’s also why middle management is awful - in our org my eventual grade of departure was the unhappiest grade in the organisation, as it was at the top of the doers but below the managers who were no longer expected to do anything but manage.
And I *do* think management is a real job, good managers, like good clients, are priceless.
But it’s very rare in an organisation that telling the truth honestly is a virtue, I was constantly looked over for promotion and people who did literally no work (I was friends with them, one of them ‘helped’ me - I.E he translated and managed me for the boss who didn’t click with me, for her and he sat at his desk twiddling with his phone whenever I came to see him, and I was no saint for slacking off given the environment) were promoted because they talked and sounded like managers, they wrote good but essentially meaningless reports, they misrepresented on (government) stoplight checks and generally acted in a manner to support the status quo.
I eventually left due to ill health after completing one half decade long project (they occurred every decade) and about three years from the second - which I’d told them they were *also* a year late on.
That project - which cost over £100m and was budgeted due to cuts for £70m (which was impossible) - eventually took place a year later, due to Covid, and used none the the hard work I and whole teams had put in to develop our own system, which was supposed to be our pride and joy. They used another part of the government’s existing system, got worse results than other people using the same thing… and wrote all of it off to Covid.
It’s endemic throughout all systems, but when money is on the line, there is a minimum amount of value. The only way you remove it is to radically alter our work culture from the standard post-Victorian / pseudo-American (or actually American) inspired ethos to one that is much more flat structured and gives all employees a stake, at least in my experience.
@@IrishAnonymous01 No, the BOSS should have outsourced the order, after being properly informed of their output capacity, by the guy running his print shop. Or the boss could have asked his printshop guy what sort of equipment he'd need and how many more employees to hire, before they could handle such an order. The guys working in the print shop's job is to crank out however many t-shirts they can, not run the boss's business for him. And for that matter, why didn't the boss have at least a rough idea how many shirts they could print in that time?
"Your client will ask you questions that will make you question if they have a grasp on reality"
I'm a snake catcher, and this statement is engraved on my very bones.
I have to hear the "best" question you've gotten.
You're a snake catcher? Not a pest control guy? Must be a lot of snakes
@@MushookieMan That's Australia for you 😁
@@daweaselgeek1430 Lots of people have it in their head that venomous and non-venomous species can cross breed to create some kind of Frankenstein species with superpowers. I had someone ask me if the python I was holding was able to melt steel with its venom.
@@EsteemedReptile What did the python breed with, a xenomorph? Great answer, thank you.
Train maintenance engineer here. You wouldn't imagine how many weeks or even months it sometimes takes several experts from several companies, to find the cause for 1 train issue. Once you found it, fixing it often takes just an hour. And same as your clients, the upper management sometimes fails to understand why this 1 simple fix ended up costing them so much money. It's not the fix, it's knowing what to fix.
Choo Choo! 🚂
There's the classic story of the guy who comes in, taps the pipe or the machine or what have you in a specific spot and then bills for a thousand dollars. When asked why he's billing so much for such little labor, his response is, "You're paying for the experience that let me know that tapping that spot would fix the problem."
This makes me feel a lot better about the times I took awhile to find what was a stupid problem.
For me there was no stress like providing an estimate when I was a freelance application developer. My god, I ate so many hours.
Oh god yes, I used to hate that as a painter/minor contracting ie (drywall, plaster repair and finish carpentry). After I figure material cost then factor in my time at the standard going rate only to be asked "Why do you want so much for such a simple job?"
Well if it's that damn simple then do it yourself.
remember folks, an estimate is just an estimate
Nothing is ever more than 2.5 grand *facepalm*
I recall seeing a sign at someone's art fair booth. It said something like "Yes you could make this yourself, but you're not going to". And from what I've seen it's true, anyone could buy all the tools, materials, and learn to do whatever, but most don't want to.
@@patrickdix772 It's why people can make money mowing lawns.
Man, it’s so nice that you actually took the time to actually answer that question instead of just saying “tell them to go elsewhere if they don’t want your services”
I'm not sure he knows how to answer a question that succinctly, that's why we all watch him. The rambling is half the fun.
I do realize that clients are clients whatever your trade, when you're a freelancer, but it never stops striking me how everything Adam says about freelancing in _his_ field applies perfectly to _my_ field, software engineering.
Same for me in 3d modeling
And music.
It applies everywhere because people are the same wherever you go.
Complexity is complexity, foresight is foresight, and people are people, no matter the job
And sales!
I’ve had machinist friends that I used to ask if they could make something for me that in my mind seems simple. It wasn’t until I became a machinist that I understood the amount of effort I was asking my friends. I really feel bad now for having had asked them to do something for me.
Why feel bad?
this may sound weird but follow witg me here;
There are more "excutive officers" in the world then machinists. Not just CEO's, but the CEO's, the CFO's EEO's etc the leaders groups at the top are far more numerious than machinists.
So why dont you get paid more then them? Your litterally more important.
the answer; yours services have to compete with the hobbiest. Most people do the job in no small part because they love it, people go into more debt for thier machining hobby then corvettee nuts.
Some of your friends at very least, no matter how grumpy they where, did it for fun anyway
SO because they do/didit for fun they shouldn't get paid? How much do you do for free?@@AnonymousAnarchist2
It all comes from a place of ignorance and naiveté. People dont understand the job, understand everything that has to happen and how much time it takes. People dont respect the skilled trades, even though they are completely lacking in the specific skill.
@@thecocktailian2091 You also forgot to mention that it can be dangerous. Safety first!
@@AnonymousAnarchist2 you forgot to mention sources dude. I can't just put my trust in a, "trust me bro type of comment."
Jamie seems like a true no B.S. type of guy, and that is likely what that director liked about him. Beyond his incredible skills in prop making.
Very hard to find no BS people in california
@@goldenhate6649your irrational cali hate boner is showing.
There are tons of no bs people in cali
Freelance cinematographer here. Always love seeing your videos about running a business and working with clients because they’re extremely insightful. (Especially because it reminds me that everyone in the industry deals with the same challenges.)
We had someone in to do a major project on our house. The estimate was literally ten times what I had imagined. The guy looked like he was very used to sticker shock. We were cordial, told him we’d think about it, and eventually decided that, yeah, it probably made sense given the amount of work it would take. One of the problems was, there were absolutely zero quotes of projected or completed work of that kind by any company that I could find online. If your work is expensive, and you are afraid of scaring away clients by putting out any info on prices, you may well scare away more people when the sticker shock comes. People at least need a ballpark to begin their imagining of how much this thing is worth to them before going through all of it with you.
I think this is more of a "we don't actually know even a ballpark number for this kind of job"
I'm a manufacturing consultant who somehow ended up specialised in effectively being a GC for building or repairing factories
When it comes to building a new factory, my rough ballpark guesses from requests like "i want to build a factory that makes gel pens on this land" are all within 5% of final prices on completed builds
When it comes to repairing or adding onto a pre-existing operation, any real accuracy goes out the window until you have personally been on-site and made sure you got all the info you need. Last ballpark estimate i did was off by nearly 1800% because the stamping presses they used had destabilised the ground on the side where we were going to build.
Yep, unfortunately I’ve known a lot of people with frustration on both sides of this issue.
On the client’s side, they may genuinely not know what all goes into it and (depending on what the job is or where it’s located), they may not be able to shop around and get multiple quotes, or actually know anybody who’s worked with that contractor (since even online reviews are pretty easily faked). So all they really know is they were just quoted a LOT of money for work by someone they don’t know (and sadly I’ve known more than a few people get ripped off or taken advantage of because there was only one person/place that responded or gave a quote, and the person turned out to be a scumbag or just did bad work).
On the maker’s side, there’s so much experience, equipment, etc that can go into a fair price that the client usually doesn’t understand or realize (especially for large jobs).
@@angrydragonslayer Most people don't know what a stamping press is or what one looks like or how much tonnage it produced, etc. 😁
@@hazen7645 and that's sort of a point i made accidently
I didn't know why they put plastic under the roof in garages that were just meant to stop wind and rain. I thought i saved a pretty penny by not using it.
I've been in the building trades for 30 years and can tell you no 2 jobs in remodeling, repair and maintenance are the same and unique jobs aren't rare. My area has very very few residential homes with a concrete slab floor over the entire basement. We got a call from one such homeowner, they wanted to remodel the kitchen and bath. The kitchen was getting the sink and it's counter moved from the outside wall to an interior wall so a patio door could go in its place. The bathroom was to be relocated to a different area. Plus some other minor work. Well with the concrete slab floor the job required hiring an engineer, you aren't getting me to bore 3 new 6 inch drain, waste, vent pipe holes blindly. I gave the estimate for what they wanted, pending engineering. They client declined the work seconds after the engineer gave him his price. The point is that there is no way to put a representative price together for a job that we never knew existed. My estimate was free and valid for 90 days, the customer wasn't harmed by me, their home, their desires were the cause of their sticker shock. And it had some to do with HGTV guestimates, see they were looking to modernize it to increase the value in anticipation of selling, some HGTV show or another gave representative kitchen and bath remodel costs along with representative resale value increases. We did give them some estimates for less intensive remodels.
Don't trust representative job costs, when you see a kitchen renovation that involves removing a wall and you see the job cost $15,000 and you have a kitchen of similar size with a similar wall that you want removed and you want similar finishes and your contractor estimates $23,000 that can all be down to you have a load bearing wall you want removed and maybe it contains the upstairs plumbing, electric, HVAC ductwork. Maybe the other job didn't contain some of those features.
And with media like HGTV always remember those shows are generally paid promotions for the products used. They are trying to entice you. Their sponsors reap the rewards the contractors who emulate the shows contractors benefit, but beyond seeing what might be possible for your situation, ideas, seeing what types of home widget appliances are out there and seeing how hot or not stainless and stone are you don't benefit financially from that type of media. Falling for it's charm can cost you more.
I genuinely appreciate your unique perspective on interactions that 99% of the world would consider negative or harsh for the brutal honesty that they are. Recognizing the value in that honesty and shining your unique light on these types of interactions is the kind of perspective that I just absolutely seeing from you.
Keep in mind, when a fellow vendor tells you that a client is a jerk, that everyone thinks their conflicts are caused by the other person.
Good point.
I don't think you can really apply that to this. These vendors have dealt with many other clients, and yet they are all saying this one is unusually difficult. I'd be inclined to believe that he is in fact unusually difficult. Jamie just happened to mesh well with him.
I did electronics for years, and had one client who objected to the cost of a repair because "all you did was replace the fuse."
Only - the client was a medical facility whose X-Ray wall stand (the chest X-Ray thing) had stopped working. It had stopped because their technicians had dropped too many of the lead markers (L, R, etc) into the thing, and shorted it out. It was late on a Saturday night, they were 150 miles away, and it was snowing like crazy. So, yeah, they paid well over $500 to have me replace a 15-cent fuse. When my boss said they were objecting, I wrote it up line-by-line: transportation four hours @ $75/hr (double time night plus weekend rate). 1 hour minimum charge for being on site: $75. Replacing fuse: $0.15. $124.85 - Knowing which fuse to replace.
I repair PCs and Notebooks. I had to replace a BIOS Battery after checking some of the hardware because the Notebook stopped powering on. The customer did not want to pay the 60€ fixed price plus 5€ for the battery because it was "not much to do".
Exactly right for that kind of service
"Knowing which fuse to replace." THIS. This is why Tradespeople are worth their salt. Yes, not all, but for most it is the experience you are paying for.
For example, it would have been $400 to have my dryer fixed in an hour. Sure, I could have, but instead, I spent 2 days disassembling it and locating the issue. A $06 (but cost me 20 since I needed it then) magnetic ignition solenoid switch. Was my time over 2 days worth it versus hiring someone? For me, I have no life so it was a worthwhile experience, but most people would have jumped for the repair person. Especially when they saw the number of screws that needed to be reinstalled along with realigning the framing.
I am the lead dev for a tailor made SCM my company provides for a medium sized logisitcs corporation. Our customer should get their advanced shipping notices from their clients as automatically generated files that are then handled automatically - once in a blue moon there are circumstances that make a client decide to manually generate those files and often important details are overlooked, data is imported incorrectly, the whole process grinds to a halt and somewhere on the other side of the planet containers cannot be transferred and rack up fees. As they operate globally this can happen anytime of the day - even outside office hours... We had a few very urgent calls in the middle of the night that lead to someone being rung out of bed for applying a 15-45min fix to the issues saving 100k worth of fees, still we cannot agree upon actually having someone on standby 24/7. As our customer put it: "We do not need someone on standby 24/7 - we just need someone who is there when we have a problem" - needless to say it is almost impossible to get them to pay for more than an hour even in such an emergency.
Your response…. Priceless!
The industry I work in is civil engineering and architecture design firms. We would get clients that were just really difficult to work with. Sometimes they know it but are willing to pay extra for it, which it's fine. The biggest issues are when they're unreasonable about price. My favorite story was about a builder who thought we were asking too much to make some single family home plans and decided that they wanted to take it back and shop around for a better deal. They did, but flash forward 2 years later we got those plans again. Apparently they were unable to find a better deal than what we were offering, which was both hilarious and relieving because until then I didn't know if we truly had competitive prices (the company I worked for prided themselves in accuracy & customer client relationships rater than the best deal so that's why I was surprised).
should have refused to service them after that force them to pay more somewhere else.
sorry we cannot waste time with you because of what you did last time
I would hear things like "this guy will do it cheaper" or "the kid down the street . . ." (my personal favorite). I never flinched. I just replied, "Yeah, there is always a kid down the street. Have a nice day." Then I either walked away or ended the call.
"soanso will do it cheaper"
the response to that is "well then why are you talking to me?"
@@ARockRaider long ago I worked at an electrical wholesaler. Sparkies would come in and say "the competition has it cheaper". At a seminar I met the guys doing my job at the competition. The sparkies said the same thing to him.
In IT there's always some kid somewhere in the bosses family who is "interested in computers" (son or nephew or whatever), who seems to have significant input into any IT decision for the business. Probably has no commercial experience, or training or any kind (beyond maybe building their own gaming PC), but they'll object to buying proper commercial grade networking gear because you can buy a cheapo residential Wifi Router for under $200. I once had someone call me after a family member built their business a database which had significant failings, then moved interstate and was unable to help them.
@JimOHalloran, were you tempted to say, "OH, repairing a system we quoted you fairly, that know doesn't work? Cost is now 2 x what it would have been."
@@m.maclellan7147 There's two components to every price. 1) The component determined by the cost of the job, with applicable markups (ie. if I think it'll take a week, that's $x worth of time). Then 2) A "tax" that makes the job worth doing. If I think the job will be especially interesting, or I'll learn skills that'll be useful down the road, then I might quote cheaper to try and win the work. But if I sense you're going to be a hassle (like making me justify every decision I make to your 14 year old nephew), that "tax" component might be a significant addition. I once had a client who would eventually pay, but I knew I'd need to spend a few hours chasing them for payment on every invoice. So their "tax" on every job included the cost of the time I knew I'd spend collecting payment. Cleaning up someone else's mess is almost always more expensive than it would otherwise have been, but they often make good clients, so I wouldn't "tax" them just for not talking to me first (although it might be tempting).
"Pushing a few buttons" Holy crap this just triggered me so hard! I was having this very conversation not 3 days ago with my mother who I was doing some home refurb work for and she said to me "well all you have to do is..." and I about lost it. In my many years of graphic design and other areas of work I have been told "well all you have to do is..." about a half million times by people who dont understand how Ive spent a lifetime learning skills in order to be able to so all these things I am able to do. They dont understand the decades of failing and learning it took to be able to do these things so effortlessly and that its not a "all I have to do is..." situation. Ive bled to learn the things I know and it wasnt easy and it drivers me nuts when people try to devalue work because they dont understand it. If "all I have to do is..." then it must be super easy and you should probably do it yourself. UGH!
Gods yes. It's the "You wanna do my job? Be my guest..." thing.
I always replay with, "Then why arent you doing it?"
SHUT UP MOM! GUH!
At work I had two managers say they could make a large plate 1/4" thick flat. I told them it was difficult. They told me they could do it. I told them, cool show me. They both walked away. Lol
@@MacMashPotato The stock response to that is "Well I have more _important_ things to spend my time on. Things that require real expertise and experience."
Sadly, the fact is that if these lines of thinking were easy to refute or break, they'd rarely exist, because they'd be refuted or broken quickly. The reason those reactions and exchanges are so common is because there are entire chains of false logic and reasoning behind them. Sturdy and internally-consistent models of 'how the world works', that are often passed around as 'deep wisdom' by those who are too immersed in their own cultural bubble.
People in our society can very easily fall into a pattern of thinking where the people who do what they do and know what they know are seen as smart and hard-working, while the vast majority of others are seen as dumb or lazy or ignorant. Or at least, 'not up to the same standard'.
Pretty much everyone succumbs to that sort of thinking at least once in their life, and whether or not each person is able to climb back out of it depends a lot more on how much their peers and environment reinforce that unhealthy reasoning, mare than any sort of personal aptitude.
I'm a lapidarist and silversmith. I enjoyed this video. The lesson I found hardest to learn was "not every customer is your customer". It's OK to let them go if they're being rude or silly.
I get a kick out of how enthusiastic you get over nerd stuff. I miss being around people who enjoy the same things. Thanks for sharing.
I've been doing freelance work for many years, and I get really annoyed when someone diminishes what I do while needing what I do to be done. Pushing a few important buttons that you don't know how to push is not free. It's called work, and we get paid for work. I'm an artist, and I've had clients want free artwork because I got it done fast. "It hardly took you any time at all."
Noeland: "It hardly took you any time at all." To the client: God yes I can do in 2 or 3 days what would have taken you 4 to 6 weeks to do. But that's because I have the tools and years of experience to use them that you don't.
As I’ve learned in the auto shops I’ve worked in- you’re paying for the experience and the tools that have taken me this long to acquire- neither is free. My good techs give out flat pricing. The time it takes to do something is irrelevant if it’s done correctly, within budget and time constraints.
I remember a locksmith saying that when he was younger and less experienced it would always take him awhile to pick a lock, and sometimes he'd damage it in the process. But customers never had a problem paying the bill because they saw how hard it was. Years later, he was able to get in much quicker and rarely did any damage doing so, but some customers didn't want to pay as much because "it's easy, it didn't take long at all". Of course it's easier when you've been doing it for years! That's the point, you're not just paying for the job, but the training and years of experience that enables the job to be done.
"If it's so easy then be my guest to do it yourself next time, but this is what you agreed to pay me to do it for you."
I work in fused glass, and it's so funny when I bring in a group of scouts or a hen party to make small ornaments or jewelry in my workshop. I cut glass bases for them to choose and they put smaller bits on it however they like. I don't charge very much for each one individually, but it adds up nicely over a large group. They say "Wow! this is so easy! why do they charge so much at craft fairs for a little suncatcher or one necklace?" or "This is so fun I want to start this for myself, how much does it take to get into this ~hobby~?"
And I I take down my jar of red frit that has a $40 price tag on it (red is more $$ than most colors) and I point to the shelf loaded with 40-50 jars and I say, "Getting started is the hard part." Then I pull out the 2 inch square of dichro glass and say, "And this costs $20, that's why you only get one of the special dots (made with the bits, edges and off cuts). So some of it is the materials cost. But while I'll be able to put all of your work into the kiln at once, and run all 20 pieces through in one run, it will cost me about $40 in electricity, and the kiln itself cost in the thousands. Plus, while all 10 of you made a piece or two in the 2 hours you were here, there's only one of me, so if I were making things to sell at a craft fair, I'd have to spend 20-30 hours on one load. And you know that what you make, you'll like, but if I'm making for the general public to buy, most of my stuff won't sell, but I've already spent the money and time making it."
"For two days' labour, you ask two hundred guineas?" "No, I ask it for the experience of a lifetime."
~ James MacNeill Whistler, plaintiff in a libel action in the 1880's
Also see the story of invoicing for knowing where to tap.
Thank you so much for not just talking other people's opinions of a person at face value. I've gotten so screwed by that before. I stood up to my gymnastics coach to defend an injured teammate (who literally made a hobby out of trying to get me in trouble no less) and she got mad. When she left and we got a new coach I introduced myself all nicely and got "Ohhhh, so *you're* Waffles" with this "I just smelled shit" look on her face. I would get in trouble for things that weren't my responsibility, weren't my fault, and that I wasn't even present for. Like "Yes Coach, I totally pushed Maddy at practice yesterday when I was at a memorial service halfway across the state". One of my teammates (actually the injured one I defended) fell on top of me giving me a black eye, and then ran to the coach claiming I punched her in the back of the head. Coach comes over screaming at me while I'm literally curled in a ball crying because a skull just impacted my face. One of my teammates who had seen the whole thing defended me and the coach refused to believe her. Like yes Coach, I punched someone who is 1.5 feet shorter than me in the bottom back of their skull with my eyesocket. Despite my eye socket being incredibly red, she still believed the other kid.
Thank you for sharing, waffles.
Great advice that transcends industries and job roles.
Absolutely.
I'm a photographer and often share his videos with others in my industry because so much of his advice applies to everyone
@@rsalbreiter Freelance writer here: yuuuuup.
As a former vet tech I can say this attitude and thinking happens in this field too. It's infuriating, demeaning and scary when you're trying to see past it to help the animal in spite of the owner.
I've consulted as an engineer on and off for the past 25 years and everything you said maps 1:1 to my experience. I've often been heard to mutter, "clients be crazy" - not loud enough that they can hear me...but yeah, you get some personalities out there. Good Stuff!!!
I think a lot of people have trouble being firm in their pricing because they don't actually know what their own pricing should be. So then when a client says "thats too expensive" you doubt your own estimate and think maybe they're actually right.
The machine you bought to press the buttons has its costs, too. Your time invested in the process costs, too. Transportation costs of getting the material should also be considered, etc. And, you also have to make some profit to invest further and to cover your costs of living. So, yeah, you set a fair price, the customer may say it's too high, it's all good. All a matter of finding a solution that works for both of you.
I love these freelancer tips/stories from Adam
Straight up, short and honest. If the customer has an issue with that, I really dont care much.
I love it when an employee is allowed to talk freely and not "corporate talk" like the guy and making a glass stomach. To me they're the most honest.
Best response for people that doubt your estimates. "You're right it is expensive, but a small part of that is my actual labor. The cost comes from my experience and the fact that you know the thing you're paying me for is going to come out exactly as you want it to. You could go with someone cheaper, but you'd be constantly worried if they're going to do this right."
Adam (Mr. Savage), It is really amazing to observe someone (you) stopping in mid sentence to think and make sure what you are about to say is okay with you! I'm known for doing the same thing, much to the chagrin of anyone listening to me. So...
as someone who's in this kind of field, a lot of what you say lines up. and a few new things as well. very nice and helpful.
This is super-timely for me right now-I'm currently renegotiating my contract with my main client, my rates are going up, it's going... how it's going... and I needed to hear this right now. Thank you sir.
"yeah but it's going to cost you" is absolutely the way to respond. You're setting up a few expectations IMMEDIATELY.
1. I know what I'm doing
2. I know what it's going to take to do it.
3. I will charge you what it's worth and you can take it or leave it.
Those SIMPLE words will eliminate a bunch of unnecessary back and forth later.
I had a customer wanted modifications to his machine control software. It was a big job and I told our sales department it would be over £30K. The customer said he only had a budget of £25K and asked our salesman to look at it again. I spent three more days looking in more detail and said it would be close to £31K. The customer was insistent and demanded a detailed itemised quote. After three weeks we came up with a quote just under £32K. The customer still only had £25K so our salesman had to tell him we weren't going to pay to work for him. My three weeks was a total loss but at least we didn't waste any more...
Everytime I hear Adam talking about clients, I'm hearing myself about my job :D
Your words are almost identical to my own thoughts when it comes to my chosen field. I repair musical instruments and it never ceases to boggle my mind some of the questions I have been asked!!
Love the content of this video, I’m a middle aged, self employed carpenter. After I had poured obsessive effort into being very proficient in my craft, I had to then be humbled by having to learn how to sell my skills, learn how to charge and how to market myself. I’m still a student in all of that at this point. However, I learned some sales skills that changed my life in that I learned how to listen. How to deeply listen as to what the project is, why they want or need it, how long they have been wanting or needing it. Listening to what is important to them in the process of serving them. That is something that really leaves a high water mark with people, that are about to have someone in their home for weeks or months pension the size of the project. As well as learning how to honestly communicate with people so they are buying you. Not the version of you, you think that they want, for a price that will compensate you to bring your absolute A game.
So many great comments on here, and this is my favorite so far.
True deep listening is crucial for success. As a professional it’s very hard to remember what it was like when you knew nothing about the subject matter. A communication gap naturally evolves between the professional and the client, so when you practice “tactical empathy” and active listening you automatically set yourself on a course for success.
When I was younger I failed at a job that involved communication under pressure. The experience was transformative for me and I enjoy pursuing improved negotiation, problem solving, and deescalation through communication.
Now my communication failures are infrequent enough that when they happen I can forgive myself and learn the lesson more quickly than I did in that prior life.
But getting back to your comment, it truly pleases me the way in which you describe communication-listening as the key to your success and, I would guess, satisfaction.
I'm a software developer. If my clients saw how little time I actually spend writing code, they would wonder why they are paying so much. The vast majority of my time is spent thinking and researching solutions. That doesn't look like "work" and is very hard to measure. The actual typing in of the code is the smallest part of the overall job.
I just looked at a piece of code I spend 3 days writing... 70 ish lines divided over 3 functions. Looks like almost nothing....
And now that you have Microsoft Copilot, you spend even less time coding. The cost of software development is about to get much cheaper, and that's a good thing.
Also how many years you spent learning structure and how to code effectively
@@allanshpeley4284
I wouldn't trust AI to do anything well.
I've hired out a number of commissions for art and instrumental wok for RUclips and personal projects. I always try to be as patient and understanding as possible since yes- I am hiring someone to do work I absolutely could not do myself!
I've even had to tell friends I'm not going to let them do work for me for free or serious discounted rates. Never undervalue your work since you're taking your time to do something for someone else
For the 3D print "pressing a few buttons" as well as other "Maker" jobs, you are paying for the experience.
Yes, I could just press a button, print, and roll the dice. But, I will inspect the item, orient it correctly for best strength or surface appearance if that matters more, apply correct supports, and make sure it adheres to the bed. Then there is the clean-up, post-processing, add any inserts or colorants placed on it, possibly sealing the item for extra UV resistance.
I know, any Trades job is the same way. It is more the experience and the know-how to fix something if it goes wrong or to adapt to the situation. But since the question was 3D specifically, I explained quickly in case others were stumped as well.
Started laughing when you mentioned coding. The first 20 years of my career was writing embedded control software. I had a very difficult problem to solve once, and a guy who might have written some single threaded BASIC said to me with great confidence "Well, all gotta to do is ...". I had to turn and walk away, else I might have said something very unprofessional.
Over the years I've become pretty good at laying out to a client /why/ stuff they imagine being easy will take x amount of hours, with a 20% over/under margin of error. Having done basic tech support for years before becoming a developer taught me valuable tech explanation skills using metaphors. The best clients are the ones who say like "yeah I don't care how; that's why we seek expertise, and your prices align with other offers. Being able to communicate, though, is why we'll give *you* the go ahead even though you're 5% over the best offer."
Needed to hear this today. I am changing things up a bit going from what I call reimagined makeovers to full custom builds that come purely from my imagination. The new builds of course are 3 to 4 times higher. New clients that want a custom piece pay right up. The pieces I build just to sell pevious clients or followers seem to be blown away at the pricing. Then others say I am way under pricing for my one off pieces.
Sometimes I survive piece to piece so I hate to turn down work or a offer on a piece but I also hate to think I am cutting myself short. I want to be at a place where I can say this is the price take it or leave it but at the same time there is nothing else out there like my stuff to compare prices or see what sells and what doesn’t. So I can get caught up afraid to over quote someone’s expectations and lose a job but also caught up wondering how much money I am cutting myself out of.
Try putting one in a charity auction.
I always enjoy listening to your responses. I am a Special Ed Teacher who does Art, Photography, and wood crafts as a hobby. Whenever I have had people, usually friends and coworkers, ask me to make something for them, I would have no idea what to tell them for a price. I would research it and use the figures I would find out, but they would always tell me it was too much. I usually undercut the expected price, but still worried I was asking too much. I made some small pieces last year and hoped to sell them and make a little extra money. A manager of an Art store in town gave me a formula of $1/square inch; but the pieces didn't sell like I thought they would.
Love your QTIP response to the “pushing a few buttons” question. For years leading teams of video producers, I’ve always likened what we do in the creative world to what a magician does. If you don’t understand how a magician works, and you see them produce a coin out of thin air, you may be tempted to assume they could also produce a Ferrari out of thin air. Although the skills necessary to do those 2 things are different by an insanely wide margin, an ignorant (at best) or entitled (at worst) client couldn’t possibly understand this if they have no frame of reference. It’s not my job to “teach them a lesson” but it may be my opportunity to educate them if I can simply find a way to QTIP, graciously provide them with a frame of reference, and then be at peace with whatever outcome knowing that I did all that I could.
You're not paying me to "push a few buttons"
You're paying me because I know *which buttons to push*
Depending on what it is you can find a file ready to go online if someone posted it. Otherwise you need to create the drawing in CAD.
I don't just know how to make websites, I know HOW to make websites
AND you have the machine to push the button on, in the shop to house the machine, with utilities, taxes, and insurance to pay, using time that's worth something to you, and so on and so forth...
And you really think that would help the argument? It makes a good joke, but it doesn’t make good relationship with a customer.
@@SomeGuysGarage
And the material to make the item out of. Wear and maintenance on the machine.
Violin maker here. Years ago I had a client that had a expensive cello bow (worth @$10k) with a stripped eyelet. The part wholesale is about $5, but takes about half an hour to install, especially on quirky old and valuable antiques where nothing is square or straight. The client blew a gasket when I charged him $50. Calmly explained that he was only paying for my time and that the part was free in my shop and that he stood there for 40 minutes while I worked and showed the process of minutely making adjustments until it was right, while charging him for half an hour of time, my standard rate for the job. He went on to trash me about town, my other clients did back me up. I still never see him and it’s a blessing, nobody has time for that!!
!!!!
Customers not only don’t know how you do your work or why it costs what it does, they often don’t even know what the solution to their own need is. I get asked (electrician) for all kinds of odd stuff. When I hear what it’s for there is often simpler or more elegant answers and I try to convey them to the client.
As a plumber's client, I had the opposite experience. I had to tell him to replace the pressure regulator even though he didn't think that was the issue. Of course I was an engineering student at the time
A a person who was a custom picture framer and gilder, I understand your experience with the glass blower. If you have never done something before as in making a hand gilded frame from dimensional lumber, people will respond with the comment that "it is just 4 pieces of wood". Yes it is; but is is much more. It took me x years to learn what I do it correctly the first time I start a new project.
A persons training and experience in "I have learned 10,000 ways not to do something" is more important. There is also the knowledge of being able to correct things on the fly if something goes wrong. That knowledge is why I am worth $xx.oo for this job. You have to feed and support yourself and your family just like everyone else as well as paying for the overhead of your shop.
You as a craftsperson are work every penny of what you charge. At the same time you are not knocking the client who drives to your facility in their $150,000 car, or for what they charge as they receive from their endeavors.
Ha, you are so spot on about clients thinking we just push a button and "poof" we produce products. I own an embroidery business and I've had a client state that very thing when they were watching our machines in action. I had a machine that didn't have anything running on it and I invited them back to push the button to make their embroidery logo. I do try to educate them on the processes that we have to go through to digitize, design, and what we have to do to make it work properly, prior to pushing the magic button.
I love how you handle things when people don't quite understand why work costs X amount of dollars. I wish I could be as calm about it. When someone balks at a price for a thing with me I break down my cost in supplies, time, cost of tools I will need and if they aren't happy I will gladly give them a list of everything needed and links to RUclips tutorials. Either they come back and pay the asking price understanding why or they leave me the heck alone. Either way I am happy.
The problem with that approach is you've now given them a list of things to argue about. Use judiciously.
Suddenly tempted to make unreasonable requests of you just to get RUclips recommendations 😂
6:58 and that’s the main problem with clients. You’ll do a free estimate and spend sometimes hours on it and they change their mind which they were gonna do in the first place.
Love the advice about getting insight into a potential client's personality and other traits but to also make your own assessment. ❤
Loving all these "what about all these freelance work questions I have?" segments
Very similar responses when dealing with automotive diagnostics and the "But you just push a few buttons" folks.
The answer to "why am I paying you so much to 'push a few buttons'?" is "you're not paying me to 'push a few buttons,' you're paying me because I know which buttons to push"
I was telling my mom how impressed i was with current video game devlopments in a popular video game I like, I'm all impressed, she said they have a computer that does it all for them. I stopped talking to her about that stuff completely.
I love your channel. You're the George Carlin of "Tool Time" and fabrication . Thanks for the humor that makes me laugh out loud . Your ideas about arranging your shop tools have given me ideas for mine. Your outlook on life is profound . Thank you so much !
"Don't take their lack of knowledge personally" is fantastic advice and really easy to follow if you consider the following: If they knew what you did (or if they knew what was involved), they'd probably be doing it themselves!
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance.
Furthermore, if a client wants a second opinion, you cannot take that personally either. If you're confident in your work and your price, you should actually encourage shopping around. If your product/service is truly worth what you're charging, they'll come back.
Hanlon's razor is "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
As a video editor and designer, I can say this advice is also so very, very applicable... and it has been hard learned over my three decade career.
Many moons ago in a world of residential electric. I had a client ask why it cost 180.00 to push the button on the GFCI outlet in his garage. My response, you're not paying me to push the button, you're paying me for the knowledge to know what button to push.
@@Tobester_McDonkey
I mean you could be a bit more honest and say it's a tax for not knowing how to check if a breaker has been tripped.
Am I crazy or is that not like, extremely basic knowledge along with checking if the fuse has gone on an applicance?
Some people have too much money, they get charged.
Operating costs, travel, fuel, rolling stock.
The old WWII veteran or widow will get a break or free service.
If your house is over half a million and there's a g wagon or new sports car, you're paying full price.
And you're paying for the time you spent on that job that you could have been spending at another job that required more of your skills and training.
Yep. Had a similar incident. Client calls up complaining that the AV system isn't working. From his description, we tell him to make sure that the equipment rack is powered on. He (very angry) says that OF COURSE IT'S TURNED ON. We then tell him that there will be a minimum $100 charge for time and materials along with a trip charge. Site was a 2 hour round trip. He wants us there IMMEDIATELY. We send a tech. He walks in, turns the rack on, leaves 5 minutes later. Easiest money that we made that day.
Yup, the price isn’t about the time spent on that job. It’s the thousands of hours you spent learning to do the job. If they wanted a monkey to do the job they should’ve hired one.
I saw this in a craftsman shop in 1981, and it's stuck with me since.."Speed, quality, price. Pick any two."
I learned the same thing. Worked with a client when I was making studio scale models, was warned about him by two people. I was told nightmares about how he always begins nicely, and turns bad and turns really bad. I still work with him, he is a joy to deal with on every level. I have never had one issue with him. He never has not paid me, and never had any complaint of my work. I think sometimes we can be the problem, and I think the reason they had issues, was they listened to others about him and walked into it with preconceived issues that might not have been there.
You're right; I'm just pushing a few buttons. What you're paying for is me knowing which buttons to push, what order to push them, and when. And you'll be delighted with the result.
I've run and worked for research consultancies over the years, and completely agree with what Adam says here.
It’s not the hour it takes me to solve your problem. It’s the 20 years of experience that it took me to know how to solve your problem.
Lots of great advice. A note about dealing with other professionals with whom you share responsibilities though. It helps to be up front about what your role is and what they can expect you to contribute. It’s just as important as being up front about cost and scope with a paying client. Just as if you low balled a price to someone for whom you are doing work, you can also take on more work than you are required to in a group setting. There is a correlation between setting boundaries and setting prices.
These lessons apply to many disciplines. Maybe you do this, but at some point in your busy schedule you should give a seminar on this topic. Very interesting and helpful.
brilliant work Adam and so honest , i teach people to operate cranes , i was one told that i only teach people to pick thinks up and put them back down , yea but picking something up that weight 100 tonne or more is not just picking something up , i love people sometimes.
O.M.G. ! That is Cranes up in the Air ?! That is like a dance of physics, 3D space evaluation, no fear of heights, knowledge about local weather & and it's effects & just BALLSY ! LOL ! My hats off to you. I don't even like being around Cranes on the off chance that I get the ONLY stupid/incompetent operator, lol !
But, considering how rare accidents are, there must be some stringent training!
one of the best videos youve made concerning the business side of this/ love your wisdom and insight.
You aren't paying me to push the buttons, you are paying me to know WHICH buttons to push and in WHICH ORDER to push them....
And for set-up and opportunity costs.
And to own and maintain the equipment with the buttons on it!
I would just think you should do it yourself if you think it's so easy, I'll be interested to see how it goes
“Let them go”… Best advice Adam. The minute I sense corner cutting, I bail… “I’m not the guy for your project, here is a list of shops in town that can help.” I get 10% referral for passing on potential headache clients. I usually build things that have never been built before; money is just a commodity that anyone can make. It is a privilege to have me as your fabricator, not the other way around.
spot on on the sec question , I did show VWs for 20 years , Most of the time I would not give estimates , I
As someone who has worked with his hands half his life... my default response to questions on cost tends to be "The cost is a combination of the result, and the accumulated knowledge and skill to achieve the result."
"If it were as easy as "pushing a few buttons", you wouldn't need me to do it".
There's a line for ya
love this episode, expectation level setting well makes such a huge difference and can help make things into a good experience for everyone.
Thanks, this video is gold level advice for makers!
I do think it does occasionally benefit everyone to explain the bare bones of the process if it's one the average person may not be familiar with. Like explaining that fabricating something isn't "just pressing a few buttons" but that it requires you to create the file/template for the machine(s) being used first. When a person commissions a piece of clothing, they'll understand (usually) that it requires the maker to draw a pattern, make a mock-up to ensure the pieces fit together correctly and to adjust measurements before work on the final product is started. But, obviously, this comes with the caveats of some people just won't care regardless and you shouldn't waste your breath and time and/or having to constantly explain reduces the amount of time spent actually working.
It's why we finally created a document that goes over the basic steps of our project and process. We can say "Our process takes 8 steps. They are (names steps). We have this document that explains each step in more detail. Take a look and let us know if you have more questions." Has saved us SO MUCH time.
Adam's interaction with the glass company is like something straight out of a heist movie
I've had client be soo thankful for a call with me saying to them : "Don't do it then, you don't need this if you don't have the budget." helping them realizing that the cost was what it was no matter where they would go. They ran with the quote to knocks on other doors and realized that I was not only in the right bracket, but also a little cheaper. They came back happy about it, ended up not doing the gig, and taking alternative approach for their issues. Ultimately they sent lots of clients my way just for the fact that I wasn't gonna get them to do something if it's not needed.
Adam, thank you for remembering the dressmakers. All to often it is forgotten as a trade because of grandma doing it in the past and made in asia prices today.
We do feel forgotten a lot.
As a carpenter/small business owner, I was just talking about this. Never explain or justify your prices to customers, tell them that's your price and leave it at that. I've even had to raise the price for someone trying to get me to lower a bid, I should say at this point I will in no way take that contract.
Agreed, and a point Adam doesn't raise: You often can't spend the time educating your customer why and how --- but THAT'S NOT THE CUSTOMER'S JOB! Their job is to give precise specs and decide if they want it at your price or not, from you or from someone else. That said I will to an extent explain/justify a price, if needed, by highlighting where a big part goes while it looks like a corner ripe for cutting --- then they understand either immediately, or after they burn their fingers on a lower quote for a shoddy job & come back to you to redo it.
There's an acronym for that. Don't JADE (Justify Argue Defend or Explain). It's not globally applicable but when people are being unreasonable, it's a good place to go.
Yea because its totally unreasonable for a client to want to know exactly what he's paying for...
Pretty shady not to elaborate on the price.
I mean they know the scope of work. I just don't go into specifics on how I go about it. @@Laocoon283
@@Laocoon283 I think you can be honest to the client without yielding on your standards. I personally try not to be gruff, but I do let them know what I'm doing and how much it is. It is a balance though to be sure.
a friend of mine once went to repair a piece of industrial equipment. when he presented the bill, the boss was furious at the price "for removing a cover and adjusting a few screws" and demanded a detailed bill. The bill details were along the line of "-removing cover and adjusting screws 10$ -knowledge of which cover to remove and screw to adjust 90$"
Repairing industrial equipment and only invoicing for $100? Was this in the 1950's or are you just making this story up? 😂
You apparently don't realize this is an old anecdote, and you didn't tell it very well. It goes like this:
Shortly after an engineer retires, a machine at his former factory stops working. They try everything they can do to fix it, to no avail. Finally, the boss calls up the engineer and asks him to come in and fix it.
The engineer agrees to do so as a paid consultant. He comes in, walks around the machine, looks at a few things, takes out a hammer, and whacks the machine. It whirrs into life.
The engineer present the boss with a bill for $5000. The horrified boss says, "This is ridiculous! What did you even do? I need an itemized bill."
The engineer provides a new invoice that states:
Hitting machine with a hammer: $5.00
Knowing where to hit the machine: $4,995
I once went on a quote with my business partner on a 65' maple tree, The potential customer asked for a ballpark figure. I came back at $3200.00 He flipped out and said I have a guy that will do it for $800.00 After we looked at a few more trees he wanted removed we told him we would send him a quote. $3200 for that single tree was reasonable profit being it was 10' away from his house, limited space to work within and being on a major city street where the tree was 15' from the road. On our way back to the office I told my partner to quote that single tree @ $6400.00 He asked me if I had lost my mind, I replied No, That guy won't pay $1800 for it and I don't want to deal with him. Sometimes you have to know when to walk away.
In regards to not taking it personally, I think it's important to remember that everybody has gotten ripped off at some point, and that's naturally going to make them question prices. It doesn't mean you should cut them any slack, but remember that most of them aren't being assholes on purpose, they're being careful.
Adam,
Reminds me of a job I took back in the a late 90’s coding a website for a client. They were already on the older side of the spectrum, but I knew them personally and took the job despite my internal misgivings.
Their responsibility was to provide me with the content to plug into the website design I was providing, and I made a beautiful cutting edge design that was awaiting content.
They kept wanting to see results, and I’d show them what I had and even went so far as to use greeking and sample images to show them what they had, but their lack of understanding lead them to want more, but kept providing content that was intended for down the road.
After explaining to them, making certain things is like building a house, I need the materials for the foundation before I can put the roof on.
It didn’t matter, I ended up walking away from that job with no regrets.
The ability to quit is the most important skill a maker can have, possibly only after the ability to say no in the first place.
Thanks for the advice, Adam!
"They are all like that".... love that line.
Often they also do not take into account that you had to buy the tools necessary to make or do that job and they do not come cheap. I spend hours finding wood, cutting it and figuring out the best way to turn it into a bowl or platter and then sharpening the gouges and turning the wood and applying the right sanding and finishes and then they want squawk when I put a price of $40 on the bowl. I get about $5 an hour for my work!
For the people who ask "why does it cost so much if all you're going to do is push a few buttons?"
The cost isn't in pushing the buttons, it's in knowin WHICH buttons to push and in WHAT order to push them.
I designed a very simple, 1" tall toy soldier and it had well over 50 individual parts and those parts had to be oriented in a very certain way.
That's what makes the cost go up.
As someone who has run a one man industrial design and sales company for over 25 years I can confirm that what Adam says here is pure gold.
Learn to read your customers. Build relationships. In time 80% of your business will come from 20% of your customers.
Be honest with those customers. I have had them come to me with a budget and a request and I have torpedoed a big sale by showing them how to do it for a quarter of what they thought it would cost. Play the long game.
When you make a mistake, eat it. Never go back for more money. I have had suppliers do that to me and I remember. I know my customers would do the same.
I have made more than my share of mistakes, but I have never screwed anybody. That counts. Good customers will accept mistakes if corrected. Mistakes corrected promptly are a bonus. They will not accept being shafted.
One more thing: Screwing customers is the second fastest way to go out of business. The fastest way is to screw your suppliers.
Whether supplier or customer, we all talk with our peers about you.
I did some CGI some years ago for a guy who was a complete pain -he constantly gave the wrong description of what he wanted and then asked me why I did it the wrong way -he also became invisible for weeks and impossible to reach.
@tested @7:30 Thank you very much for this comment that I heard today. When/if you ever read this and the significance of who/what has come to fruition, you will get a nice little chuckle that you sir gave encouragement while I was working on resolving a huge discovery. I needed that statement.
The same things happened to me all the time working in IT. Management had no idea how the work was done, but judged peoples work by how important the client was and how much they liked the programmer.
I work making financial calculations for lawyers, and so much applies to that too
That scenario where a client is surprised at a quote or cost happens frequently with musicians, quoting live performance pricing to non-musicians. Just because we love what we do doesn’t mean we shouldn’t get paid for it. It’s a profession, and a highly skilled one at that, not a hobby.
'Just for pushing a few buttons'
Well it's knowing what buttons to push, in what order, and having those buttons available to push!
Years ago, I worked on sports cars (MGs, Sprites, etc) out of my house. I got a call from someone who was looking have the carbs on his MG setup. I gave him a price and he went off about what I was charging. He couldnt understand how I could charge so much money when no parts were involved, on and on like that. I sent him down the road. Two days later, his car was on the side of the road. He took it to a guy who was just starting out, and didn't understand the S.U. carbs these cars have. I stopped and asked if he needed any help, and he told me to shove it basically. The worst part was I saw that car on a lot, and it sat there for months. One day I stopped to check it out. Opened the hood, did some adjustments and the car fired up just fine. Bought that one for $300. Drove it for a few years.