Hi David. I discovered your books by watching Grogtalk and they have become an invaluable resource in my efforts to resurrect this game for my family since last playing it almost 40 years ago. The DM Guide and Handbook are just as convoluted as I remember, so thank you for that "deconstruction!" At one point in this video the player moves to engage, after winning initiative, but must wait until the next round before striking. This allows the monsters to hit first even though they lost initiative. I can envision a scenario where the players and monsters engage in a kind of Mexican stand-off if both are outside of striking range.
That's exactly right. When encounter distance can often be 15+ feet apart, there are always times when it becomes a case of: who moves first loses. This is where the DM has to take the 'monster' into account, a combat savvy or cunning oppo e t will use distance, but a less intelligent, overly aggressive enemy will move in regardless. Thank you for your words; I am so glad to help, any questions, anytime.
Great video David. Very thorough and detailed. Regarding Steve’s comments, that can be an issue and one I have dealt with in the past. He who moves first to close then gets attacked by the losing party. A couple of ways around it is that everyone declares actions at the same time before intuitive is rolled and then do movement by segment or just say they meet in the middle. The other method is charge attack and then longest weapon get initiative.
@@bpuppy9109 First, to quote Gary Gygax " However you choose to do Initiative and combat is correct." We trialled various methods of combat and initiative, there's no 'right' way. We always ended up going back to the d6 Gygax way, eventually (7th to 9th Level) the Magic-users become way too powerful as they snap fire spell after spell. Thanks for your comment and I hope you get something out of my ramblings.
Very thorough giving separate examples of the same room exploration. When a small party of orcs arrive demonstrating surprise - unsurprised by each party, which gets initiative, choice of retreat or engage, order of encounter by weapon, roll for action outcome hit or miss. Follow-up moves or retreat. Clear explanations. Thanks and kudos.
Good video. Repetition is always the best way to learn anything. It's all fairly straightforward, especially after years of repetition. I didn't re-roll initiative, though, not often; not unless there was a change, like a new combatant entered the fray. I have to admit that I was a stickler for making rolls to see if ranged weapons inflicted friendly-fire damage; after all, there's a lot of ducking and weaving going on in melee, and unless the character rolls a natural 20, there was always the possibility of hitting a party member. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Dave. I've played AD&D for about 35 years. Due to the Pandemic we last played our 1st ED campaign about 10 months ago "face 2 face" around a table with mini's etc. We started a side bar campaign with 1 of the players from last year and 2 "new" players (they're not new just haven't got characters in the original campaign) last night on a virtual Table top and I have to say we had a great time with almost a TPK on the first significant encounter with a ghoul..... paralysis is a bitch !! I've never implemented the DMG rules in the book to the letter because frankly I've never really understood them all ! This video is a great explanation to a rule that has always confused the life out of me and the group of 3 charterers we have now includes 2 elves and a 1/2 elf one of whom is a thief, well that's what he told the others in fact he's an assassin, so surprise is coming in to play a lot. Really enjoyed this video and it does help a lot albeit I still find it bloody complicated for such a simple concept. I did love your quote though in the comments from "Mr Gygax" and I take heart from the fact that if the great man said "However you choose to do initiative and combat is correct."..... and that's good enough for me . I'll be watching your other videos over the coming days and weeks. Happy gaming and thanks for sharing
Thank you very much for your comments, I appreciate it. Well, I also like the Gygax quote from the DMG "...surprise is basically self explanatory." I suggest you pick up the free magazine (at least, I think it is) on DriveThruRPG for Flipping and Turning; this is also a source of information about AD&D 1e. I'm glad you're playing and getting new players. Thank you for your support.
Hmm... as far as I understood it should not have been three but two segments of surprise. as one one party is suprise, the dice value of the suprised party is used. only if both parties are suprised, you would determine the difference to get the surprise segments.
It's the difference between the two surprise rolls. Party A being surprised, for example, on a 1, the other side roll a 5, that's 4 segments of surprise that Party A have to endure (less any other adjustments).
@@TheEldarGuy The DMG, 1st Edition, p. 61 states otherwise: "Surprise is usually expressed as a 2 in 6 chance for all parties concerned, [...]. Each 1 of surprise equals 1 segment of time lost to the surprised party, [...]. If BOTH parties are surprised, then the effect is negated or reduced: Surprise Dice Difference / Lost Segements 0 => 0 1 (2-1, 3-2, etc) => 1 2 (3-1, 4-2, etc) => 2 3 (4-1, 5-2, etc) => 3 [...] Example: Party A is surprised on a roll of 1 or 2, while party B is surprised only on a roll of 1. A rolls 2 and B rolls 1, so A is inactive due to surprise for 1 segment. Had B rolled a 2, it WOULD NOT have been surprised at all, and A would have been inactive for 2 segements." The example makes it very clear. A rolls 2 and B rolls 1 => both are surprised, and the difference determines the number of surprise segments. A rolls 2 and B rolls a 2 => only A is surprised and not by a margin of 2-2=0 segments (which would not make sense by the way), but by the number their suprise die shows, i.e. 2.
Here is an easy way to think about surprise in Dungeons. Party will have a light source if humans are part of it. Awake, alert, monsters will never be surprised as the light source will give the party away all the time. If there is no fire in the area (fire pit cooking, for example), then it's always dark. Also sound. The party in plate mail will be super loud in a dungeon. If the monsters are in their guard room drinking and being rowdy with a good fire, then surprise could be possible.
You are of course correct. In those instances monsters would not or only be rarely surprised. The surprise roll can always be modified by the DM, in fact it's encouraging the DM to make situational adjustments for those reasons. Even with Infravision, that's not an 'always on' ability.
@@TheEldarGuy It was more of if the party was surprised or not most of the time. If not, "roll for initiative" Outside of of dungeon setting was different of coarse. I would make a snap decision based on the circumstance and characters involved. I was not so stringent on many rules but would be a stickler on things like "Dwarves can only move 6' (per the monster manual)" lol! You're short legs only take you so far." The party would be running away and the slow Dwarves lagging behind even the shorter but quicker Halflings.
David, after all this time from your making of this video, I'd forgotten to ask about F/M-U, wearing armor and casting spells. Where is that delineated in the books please? Thanks a lot again for all of these...they're so helpful to review, to remember this from all those long years ago. 😀 👊
Hi there, pages 32 and 33 of the PHB; in the section on multi-class characters, the text specifically says that multi-classed magic-users can wear armour. The Thief class limitations for leather armour is always applied (for using the Thieves Abilities).
@@retrodmray Always willing to help. With the multi-classed characters, that's part of the rationale for their ages to be at the maximum value. There's a lot to learn. Thanks for comme ting and any other Q's, I'm happy to oblige.
Surprise should have been two segments, not three. You only subtract the two rolls if both sides are surprised-overlapping surprise cancels out. If only one side is surprised, you just use the value shown on their surprise die.
Hello, thanks for watching and commenting. In that first example, where the players (not surprised) rolled a 5 and the Orcs (surprised) roll was 2; the Orcs were surprised and the amount of time surprised or segments lost is the difference in the rolls.
@@TheEldarGuy I believe that's an error. You only take the difference if both sides are surprised. If only one side is surprised, you just take the number on their own surprise die without modification.
@@SuStel Hello, The little chart on page 61 of the DMG shows the lost segments between the surprise die results. You will notice there is 3 segments for a difference when surprise roll 2 vs roll of 5.
@@TheEldarGuy "If both parties are surprised, then the effect is negated or reduced: ." Notice the colon: that chart applies to each when both parties are surprised. It accounts for situations where there are high chances for surprise. See also the first example on page 62. A is surprised on 1 or 2, and B is only surprised on 1. "Had B rolled 2," when A rolled 2, "it would not have been surprised at all, and A would have been inactive for 2 segments." Only A is surprised, so the difference between the dice is not used; instead, B gets for free the number of segments shown directly on A's die.
@@SuStel One of the head messes about Surprise I discuss. The side with the ranger is surprised only on a 1, it does change some of the final results, and same when someone surprises others at different values, if one side surprises 4 in 6, it is possible for the party to be surprised for 4 segments if they roll a 4 - regardless of what gets rolled on the opponent's die. If both sides are equally surprised, then nothing happens or surprise is negated, correct. Both sides are surprised on equal values and roll the same numbers, neither side are surprised (ceteris paribus, as Gygax would say).
Not trying to add to any confusion but I read a comment from another post that there's an error in the DMG which was never corrected. Apparently, the last 2 lines of the Surprise Chart are backwards...?
Not really... the error is that the tables used don't match up to the examples given. When you write up the surprise tables as the examples are provided, the words make sense. The premise of each side rolling a die to determine if one side is surprised still holds. The environment and the DMs prerogative make up a lot of the modifiers.
@@chipguy5135 Being a necro lich, looking again through these vids, and suspecting that poster was possibly me (I think). The examples may work as mentioned, but the preceding info. before the table in the DMG, indicates it represents a 2in6 vs. 2in6 scenario. It really is no wonder there is confusion about it. Likely an oversight by Carr and Gygax I guess: a pretty big one when it is such a crucial mechanic in combat. In the PHB, it seems the group is rolling against the opponent's value 'to surprise', rather than 'to be surprised'. Checking the PHB table against the example given there, it all makes sense [the only thing they messed up is 1 vs. 1 and 2 vs. 2 wording: it should be a none result really (in brackets) once the subtractive mechanic is in play, also in the DMG]. So, using our new-found knowledge of the mechanic in the PHB example, the DMG then proceeds to mess it up at the end of the table and the values are switched and incorrect (using the subtractive mechanic for both parties surprised, whether it's 'to surprise' or 'to be surprised' range assignment, as they are both 2in6). Examples are nice, but if they don't match the table, one assumes they aren't grokking it correctly. Pedantic, over-analysis perhaps? Yes, most certainly. To add insult to injury, in the _"Dungeon Master's Adventure Log"_ 1e supplement, they use the PHB table, but omit the 4in6 vs. 2in6 edge-case example the table refers to, ensuring no-one would understand it at face-value I guess. heh
What are the surprise rules regarding a unaware opponent? (Other than theif/assassin backstab). That is to say “total surprise” -edit: i meaning in bonuses to hit and damage.
In a total surprise scenario, one side has a 1 to 6 chance of surprise. That's how you play it. Roll the d6 and that's the surprise rounds (adjusted for reaction - because we'readding 4 to the Surprise roll, a Ranger would have 1 to 5). Because of the lethality of total surprise, it would be a very special occurrence. Even in the dungeon, when a party is carrying torches and lanterns, armoured in metal and shields. The goblins around the corner may still botch the 'ambush' (total surprise) - by jumping out too early, making some last minute chatter, fidgeting with a weapon, whatever. So total surprise which removes all forms of dexterity defensive adjustments, and quite possibly additional 'to hit' modifiers, should be rare. Myself, I rarely use anything more than 1 to 5. That adds 3 to the surprise roll, therefore the Ranger (which has a 1 in 6 base) would become 1 to 4. Then adjusted by dexterity reaction. In terms of 'monsters' and those with no Dexterity adjustment for defense a -2 on the AC is the usual adjustment.
Can you clarify the pg 61 DMG 'Surprise Dice Difference" chart? Still am really lost on that. What if the party rolls a 6 & the monster rolls a 1? The difference is 5, right? What am I getting wrong? I def' get the pg 62 table. Easy. Still don't see how the pg 61 table translates in my ex. (Party 6 vs Monster 1) That's 5 ... Where exactly is that on the table? I get that the monster would be caught off guard & vulnerable for a good 5 segments, but why am I not seeing that on the table? Only 5 I see is the one in parenthesis. "(5-2)".
I Googled around & found this. Read the 3rd paragraph down re: surprise rolls. Says NOT to subtract the different sides' dice from each other. Which is exactly what I was doing in my ex. & saw you do in yours. SO confused! nagorascorner.blogspot.com/2012/05/ad-initiative-surprise.html I need this part explained like I'm six. lol
@Leonard Shatner Hi there, First, there are a great many 'house rules' on Surprise and Initiative; with some good reason too. Our group had experimented with several different systems for Surprise and Initiative, but we always came back to the d6 method from the book. It is actually quite balanced - just difficult if creatures of odd surprise values were used (which, as DM, I had to make my own allowances for when I used those few monsters). So, from the top: first, let us assume two groups (PartyA and PartyB) are both surprised in the standard 2 in 6. You are correct that PartyA rolling 6 and PartyB rolling 1, means Party A has 5 segments of surprise on their side. That's segments, for anything other than combat, PartyA are still limited in their actions. A spell that takes 3 segments casting takes 3 segments, the Party can only move at Segment speed (their Move in feet not game inches). Also, in that first segment, any missile weapon ready to go gets an extra shot. That chart only goes up to 3 segments, but there's nothing to dictate that 3 is the limit. Therefore, 6v2 and 5v1 is 4 segments and 6v1 is 5 segments. What the DM has to decide is the following headmess: A character with 18Dex is in a party that is surprised for 3 or less segments; the DM can either say that the character is not surprised and the remaining party is or the whole party benefits from the Dex modifier. Due to the similarity in other rules, I always took it that the highest Dex modifier would affect the Party surprise. Therefore with a character possessing an 18 or 19 Dexterity, the most a party could be surprised is 2 segments. (the DMs Guide also says the DM can rule the Dex modifier is not applicable depending on the situation - e.g.: Invisible Stalker). The ultimate headmess is: if PartyA is surprised only on a 1 in 6, PartyB roll a 2 (therefore Surprised) and Party A also roll 2 (not surprised). As PartyA is surprised 1 in 6, PartyB is surprised for 2 segments; and if PartyB rolled a 1 vs PartyA rolling a 2, PartyB would be surprised for 1 segment. Headmess. Which is why people made their own rulings, but if you actually think about it, it does makes sort of sense - that being surprised 1 in 6 is meant to be a powerful tool. For the Party that causes Surprise (such as the Halfling/Elf causing 4 in 6) will surprise the opponents more often, but often for less time. Was that too much? did I break something? :) Surprise and Initiative are always tricky - use whatever method you want. Mr Gygax is famous for saying: "However you choose to do initiative and combat is correct." Thanks for watching and I'm here to try and make things less complicated.
@@TheEldarGuy Nice explanation and great videos. Your deconstruction PH/DMG and Class guides are excellent reading (especially with the examples). They help understand the concepts so much better. Yea, the surprise thing gets everyone as it seems simple initially but with a lot of exceptions. One way is to simplify and just go with B/X style and DM fiat. If determined, there is a chart in the old Dragon magazine 133 that gives the percentages to tackle all the variations (which is also available in Ken-Do-Nim's excellent house-rule document at Dragonsfoot forums). Wait till one has to figure out the gotchas of Cleric turning undead. Yikes! A lot of research required getting into 1e as a DM, but I think it is one of the things that makes learning it so much fun and rewarding: it's like an archaeological dig at times, uncovering relics and piecing it all together. The DM is doing most of the heavy lifting. For the players, most of this is behind the screen so one just rolls the dice and hears the results, which is a great way to maintain the mystery and ease of gaming for newcomers. Gygax packed so much information in the core books for all sorts of things, it's just fun to read, even if it is head scratching at times.
Hey there, First, thanks for watching and thank you even more for commenting. I stumble through these hoping to be providing relevant information for people who are wanting to get into 1st Edition AD&D. It is a tough slog, when you add in that the people who can help are getting fewer and fewer, I think it's important to try and put out more information. As I wrote in one of my pieces: Everyone has their own way of doing something, it was never uncommon to hear "That's not what we did. We did it this way." It's a mark of a good game that can appeal to many and for the most part we're all playing the same game - even if done differently. In the modern era, I think some of the lifting can be put to the players, but the expectation is always going to be there that the DM knows enough to make a ruling on whatever may come up. Captcoragus and GrogTalk are good resources to tap into also. Thanks for watching, I appreciate your time - any other questions let me know.
Allow me to offer you a correction because surprise is an area of great confusion. In your example with the orcs, a roll of 2 indicates 2 lost segments and and the roll of 5 for the party indicates 5 segments of action. The party now has SEVEN active segments to act. A ranger is only surprised on a 1 in 6 but surprises on a 1,2,or 3, giving them a possible maximum of 9 segments of action. Halflings operating solo surprise on 1 through 4, giving them a theoretical maximum of 10 segments of action. For you R.A. Salvatore fans, Drizzt Do'Urden a drow, surprised only on a 1 in 8 and being a Ranger surprising opponents on a 1 in 3, could have 11 possible segments of action in a surprise scenario. That's 22 attacks from our hero before a response, considering his dual scimitars. Thus, the legend was born. Where it gets a little confusing is when any party rolls a 1 because a roll of one is always considered surprise. So, in some circumstances, under normal conditions, a roll of 2 vs. a roll of 1 means the roll of 2 has 2 segments of advantage versus 1 lost segment. So, going back to our ranger since they are a special case, let's say the monsters roll a 3 and are surprised, and our ranger rolls a 2 , not surprised.. How's that supposed to work because the monsters clearly have a higher roll. Simple, the monsters are surprised for 3 segments, and the ranger is not surprised and has 2 segments to act for a total of 5 segments of action. Had the ranger rolled a 1, his surprise powers are no longer applicable, and the monsters now have 4 segments to act because the ranger is surprised. ( I have had some DMs argue that the monsters would also be surprised here, but that's malarkey) Surprise is a winner takes all event unless there is a tie at 1 to 1 or 2 to 2 under normal circumstances. I know it seems arbitrary as hell. The easiest way to calculate surprise is asking yourself if the die roll indicates surprise or not. If Surprise is indicated, you lose that many segments of time. If you are not surprised, you gain that many segments of time with the idea that a surprised party can not surprise another party if they themselves are surprised with 1 always considered surprised regardless of conditions. Then calculate distance of d3 inches or 10 to 30 feet. You move roghly 10 feet per segment unless heavily encumbered. So even if you surprise a group at say 30 feet, moving to engage may not guarantee a surprise segments of action if you have 3 or fewer segments of time to act. Missile weapons that are readied and a spell with a casting time of 3 segments or less would be fast enough to engage. A monk in this scenario becomes a lethal asset able to move, say, 18 or 20 feet in a segment, but that is a tale for another day. Hope this helps. You can see now how lethal surprise is in AD&D and why so many of us placed a huge emphasis on high dexterity to mitigate surprise with reaction adjustments. We had an invisible 1/2 orc assassin surprise a target in our last game 6 vs.2 for 8 backstab attacks that generated close to 100 points of damage with the backstabbing multiplier. Kinda made the save versus poison non sequitur, but had he rolled a 1, he would have gotten whacked, and on a 2, both he and the target would then go to initiative.
Thanks for your reply, but what we have is numerous examples running about. First, Orcs are surprised on a roll of 1 or 2. If they are surprised, and the party is not surprised (keeping it to a non-Ranger party), this is a roll of 3 through 6. Whatever the difference is between the rolls is the length of surprise actions (1 segment per surprise round)... therefore an Orc rolling a 2 is surprised and a party rolling a 4 means they are not. The orcs are flat footed for 2 segments (4 - 2). If the party rolled a 1 for their surprise, then both the party (non-ranger) and the Orcs (who rolled the 2) are surprised... however tge Orcs may recover faster and have 1 surprise round of action (unless the party have dex adjustments that alter the surprise rounds). The big head mess comes in with altered surprise values like the Monk or those funky beasts for 1 in 8 or even 1 in 10. Then you have to resort to % rolls with each pip of a 6-sided die being 16%. Your 1in 8 critter is surprised 12.5% of the time. To be fair, use the % for the check.
@TheEldarGuy how do you mitigate a subtraction of die values when, say, the orcs roll a 2, and the ranger rolls a 2? Are the orcs surprised for 0 segments, and both parties go to the initiative? Clearly, that can't be the case when the ranger can surprise them on a 1, 2, or 3. Special characters pose some challenges to surprise. But we do not subtract the dice from each other. We subtract the values generated. In this above case, the orcs have 2 lost segments, i.e., -2 segments of action, and the ranger has gained 2 positive segments, so the equation looks like this the Rangers +2-(-2 orcs)=4. Had the orcs rolled a 3 and the ranger a 2, would the orcs have a segment over the ranger?
@@dcw007 A Ranger, surprised 1 in 6, is not surprised from 2 through 6. If, the party (with Ranger) rolls a 2, they are not surprised. The Orc rolling a 2, means the Orcs are Surprised for 2 segments, if the Orcs rolled a 1 vs the Ranger 2, they are surprised for 1 surprise round.
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Hi David. I discovered your books by watching Grogtalk and they have become an invaluable resource in my efforts to resurrect this game for my family since last playing it almost 40 years ago. The DM Guide and Handbook are just as convoluted as I remember, so thank you for that "deconstruction!" At one point in this video the player moves to engage, after winning initiative, but must wait until the next round before striking. This allows the monsters to hit first even though they lost initiative. I can envision a scenario where the players and monsters engage in a kind of Mexican stand-off if both are outside of striking range.
That's exactly right. When encounter distance can often be 15+ feet apart, there are always times when it becomes a case of: who moves first loses.
This is where the DM has to take the 'monster' into account, a combat savvy or cunning oppo e t will use distance, but a less intelligent, overly aggressive enemy will move in regardless.
Thank you for your words; I am so glad to help, any questions, anytime.
Great video David. Very thorough and detailed. Regarding Steve’s comments, that can be an issue and one I have dealt with in the past. He who moves first to close then gets attacked by the losing party. A couple of ways around it is that everyone declares actions at the same time before intuitive is rolled and then do movement by segment or just say they meet in the middle. The other method is charge attack and then longest weapon get initiative.
@@bpuppy9109 First, to quote Gary Gygax " However you choose to do Initiative and combat is correct." We trialled various methods of combat and initiative, there's no 'right' way. We always ended up going back to the d6 Gygax way, eventually (7th to 9th Level) the Magic-users become way too powerful as they snap fire spell after spell.
Thanks for your comment and I hope you get something out of my ramblings.
We always declared action, then rolled initiative. Modified the initiative by weapon speed or casting time. Then went in order of initiative.
Very thorough giving separate examples of the same room exploration. When a small party of orcs arrive demonstrating surprise - unsurprised by each party, which gets initiative, choice of retreat or engage, order of encounter by weapon, roll for action outcome hit or miss. Follow-up moves or retreat.
Clear explanations. Thanks and kudos.
Thank you. I do my best.
Thanks for watching. I hope you check out the other vids too.
I'm always interested to hear other people's way to play.
Good video.
Repetition is always the best way to learn anything. It's all fairly straightforward, especially after years of repetition.
I didn't re-roll initiative, though, not often; not unless there was a change, like a new combatant entered the fray.
I have to admit that I was a stickler for making rolls to see if ranged weapons inflicted friendly-fire damage; after all, there's a lot of ducking and weaving going on in melee, and unless the character rolls a natural 20, there was always the possibility of hitting a party member.
Thanks for sharing.
Hi Dave. I've played AD&D for about 35 years. Due to the Pandemic we last played our 1st ED campaign about 10 months ago "face 2 face" around a table with mini's etc. We started a side bar campaign with 1 of the players from last year and 2 "new" players (they're not new just haven't got characters in the original campaign) last night on a virtual Table top and I have to say we had a great time with almost a TPK on the first significant encounter with a ghoul..... paralysis is a bitch !! I've never implemented the DMG rules in the book to the letter because frankly I've never really understood them all !
This video is a great explanation to a rule that has always confused the life out of me and the group of 3 charterers we have now includes 2 elves and a 1/2 elf one of whom is a thief, well that's what he told the others in fact he's an assassin, so surprise is coming in to play a lot. Really enjoyed this video and it does help a lot albeit I still find it bloody complicated for such a simple concept. I did love your quote though in the comments from "Mr Gygax" and I take heart from the fact that if the great man said "However you choose to do initiative and combat is correct."..... and that's good enough for me . I'll be watching your other videos over the coming days and weeks. Happy gaming and thanks for sharing
Thank you very much for your comments, I appreciate it.
Well, I also like the Gygax quote from the DMG "...surprise is basically self explanatory."
I suggest you pick up the free magazine (at least, I think it is) on DriveThruRPG for Flipping and Turning; this is also a source of information about AD&D 1e.
I'm glad you're playing and getting new players. Thank you for your support.
Hmm... as far as I understood it should not have been three but two segments of surprise.
as one one party is suprise, the dice value of the suprised party is used.
only if both parties are suprised, you would determine the difference to get the surprise segments.
It's the difference between the two surprise rolls. Party A being surprised, for example, on a 1, the other side roll a 5, that's 4 segments of surprise that Party A have to endure (less any other adjustments).
@@TheEldarGuy The DMG, 1st Edition, p. 61 states otherwise: "Surprise is usually expressed as a 2 in 6 chance for all parties concerned, [...]. Each 1 of surprise equals 1 segment of time lost to the surprised party, [...]. If BOTH parties are surprised, then the effect is negated or reduced:
Surprise Dice Difference / Lost Segements
0 => 0
1 (2-1, 3-2, etc) => 1
2 (3-1, 4-2, etc) => 2
3 (4-1, 5-2, etc) => 3
[...]
Example:
Party A is surprised on a roll of 1 or 2, while party B is surprised only on a roll of 1. A rolls 2 and B rolls 1, so A is inactive due to surprise for 1 segment. Had B rolled a 2, it WOULD NOT have been surprised at all, and A would have been inactive for 2 segements."
The example makes it very clear. A rolls 2 and B rolls 1 => both are surprised, and the difference determines the number of surprise segments. A rolls 2 and B rolls a 2 => only A is surprised and not by a margin of 2-2=0 segments (which would not make sense by the way), but by the number their suprise die shows, i.e. 2.
Here is an easy way to think about surprise in Dungeons. Party will have a light source if humans are part of it. Awake, alert, monsters will never be surprised as the light source will give the party away all the time. If there is no fire in the area (fire pit cooking, for example), then it's always dark. Also sound. The party in plate mail will be super loud in a dungeon. If the monsters are in their guard room drinking and being rowdy with a good fire, then surprise could be possible.
You are of course correct. In those instances monsters would not or only be rarely surprised.
The surprise roll can always be modified by the DM, in fact it's encouraging the DM to make situational adjustments for those reasons.
Even with Infravision, that's not an 'always on' ability.
@@TheEldarGuy It was more of if the party was surprised or not most of the time. If not, "roll for initiative" Outside of of dungeon setting was different of coarse. I would make a snap decision based on the circumstance and characters involved. I was not so stringent on many rules but would be a stickler on things like "Dwarves can only move 6' (per the monster manual)" lol! You're short legs only take you so far." The party would be running away and the slow Dwarves lagging behind even the shorter but quicker Halflings.
David, after all this time from your making of this video, I'd forgotten to ask about F/M-U, wearing armor and casting spells. Where is that delineated in the books please? Thanks a lot again for all of these...they're so helpful to review, to remember this from all those long years ago. 😀 👊
Hi there, pages 32 and 33 of the PHB; in the section on multi-class characters, the text specifically says that multi-classed magic-users can wear armour. The Thief class limitations for leather armour is always applied (for using the Thieves Abilities).
@@TheEldarGuy Hey! Great, thnx! Advantages to Multiclassing. 🙂
@@retrodmray Always willing to help. With the multi-classed characters, that's part of the rationale for their ages to be at the maximum value. There's a lot to learn.
Thanks for comme ting and any other Q's, I'm happy to oblige.
Surprise should have been two segments, not three. You only subtract the two rolls if both sides are surprised-overlapping surprise cancels out. If only one side is surprised, you just use the value shown on their surprise die.
Hello, thanks for watching and commenting.
In that first example, where the players (not surprised) rolled a 5 and the Orcs (surprised) roll was 2; the Orcs were surprised and the amount of time surprised or segments lost is the difference in the rolls.
@@TheEldarGuy I believe that's an error. You only take the difference if both sides are surprised. If only one side is surprised, you just take the number on their own surprise die without modification.
@@SuStel Hello, The little chart on page 61 of the DMG shows the lost segments between the surprise die results.
You will notice there is 3 segments for a difference when surprise roll 2 vs roll of 5.
@@TheEldarGuy "If both parties are surprised, then the effect is negated or reduced: ." Notice the colon: that chart applies to each when both parties are surprised. It accounts for situations where there are high chances for surprise.
See also the first example on page 62. A is surprised on 1 or 2, and B is only surprised on 1. "Had B rolled 2," when A rolled 2, "it would not have been surprised at all, and A would have been inactive for 2 segments." Only A is surprised, so the difference between the dice is not used; instead, B gets for free the number of segments shown directly on A's die.
@@SuStel One of the head messes about Surprise I discuss. The side with the ranger is surprised only on a 1, it does change some of the final results, and same when someone surprises others at different values, if one side surprises 4 in 6, it is possible for the party to be surprised for 4 segments if they roll a 4 - regardless of what gets rolled on the opponent's die.
If both sides are equally surprised, then nothing happens or surprise is negated, correct. Both sides are surprised on equal values and roll the same numbers, neither side are surprised (ceteris paribus, as Gygax would say).
Not trying to add to any confusion but I read a comment from another post that there's an error in the DMG which was never corrected. Apparently, the last 2 lines of the Surprise Chart are backwards...?
Not really... the error is that the tables used don't match up to the examples given.
When you write up the surprise tables as the examples are provided, the words make sense.
The premise of each side rolling a die to determine if one side is surprised still holds. The environment and the DMs prerogative make up a lot of the modifiers.
@@TheEldarGuy Thanks for that clarification👍
@@chipguy5135 Being a necro lich, looking again through these vids, and suspecting that poster was possibly me (I think). The examples may work as mentioned, but the preceding info. before the table in the DMG, indicates it represents a 2in6 vs. 2in6 scenario. It really is no wonder there is confusion about it.
Likely an oversight by Carr and Gygax I guess: a pretty big one when it is such a crucial mechanic in combat. In the PHB, it seems the group is rolling against the opponent's value 'to surprise', rather than 'to be surprised'. Checking the PHB table against the example given there, it all makes sense [the only thing they messed up is 1 vs. 1 and 2 vs. 2 wording: it should be a none result really (in brackets) once the subtractive mechanic is in play, also in the DMG].
So, using our new-found knowledge of the mechanic in the PHB example, the DMG then proceeds to mess it up at the end of the table and the values are switched and incorrect (using the subtractive mechanic for both parties surprised, whether it's 'to surprise' or 'to be surprised' range assignment, as they are both 2in6). Examples are nice, but if they don't match the table, one assumes they aren't grokking it correctly.
Pedantic, over-analysis perhaps? Yes, most certainly. To add insult to injury, in the _"Dungeon Master's Adventure Log"_ 1e supplement, they use the PHB table, but omit the 4in6 vs. 2in6 edge-case example the table refers to, ensuring no-one would understand it at face-value I guess. heh
What are the surprise rules regarding a unaware opponent? (Other than theif/assassin backstab). That is to say “total surprise” -edit: i meaning in bonuses to hit and damage.
In a total surprise scenario, one side has a 1 to 6 chance of surprise.
That's how you play it. Roll the d6 and that's the surprise rounds (adjusted for reaction - because we'readding 4 to the Surprise roll, a Ranger would have 1 to 5).
Because of the lethality of total surprise, it would be a very special occurrence.
Even in the dungeon, when a party is carrying torches and lanterns, armoured in metal and shields.
The goblins around the corner may still botch the 'ambush' (total surprise) - by jumping out too early, making some last minute chatter, fidgeting with a weapon, whatever. So total surprise which removes all forms of dexterity defensive adjustments, and quite possibly additional 'to hit' modifiers, should be rare.
Myself, I rarely use anything more than 1 to 5. That adds 3 to the surprise roll, therefore the Ranger (which has a 1 in 6 base) would become 1 to 4. Then adjusted by dexterity reaction.
In terms of 'monsters' and those with no Dexterity adjustment for defense a -2 on the AC is the usual adjustment.
Can you clarify the pg 61 DMG 'Surprise Dice Difference" chart?
Still am really lost on that. What if the party rolls a 6 & the monster rolls a 1? The difference is 5, right?
What am I getting wrong?
I def' get the pg 62 table. Easy. Still don't see how the pg 61 table translates in my ex. (Party 6 vs Monster 1) That's 5 ... Where exactly is that on the table? I get that the monster would be caught off guard & vulnerable for a good 5 segments, but why am I not seeing that on the table? Only 5 I see is the one in parenthesis. "(5-2)".
I Googled around & found this. Read the 3rd paragraph down re: surprise rolls. Says NOT to subtract the different sides' dice from each other. Which is exactly what I was doing in my ex. & saw you do in yours. SO confused!
nagorascorner.blogspot.com/2012/05/ad-initiative-surprise.html
I need this part explained like I'm six. lol
@Leonard Shatner Hi there, First, there are a great many 'house rules' on Surprise and Initiative; with some good reason too.
Our group had experimented with several different systems for Surprise and Initiative, but we always came back to the d6 method from the book. It is actually quite balanced - just difficult if creatures of odd surprise values were used (which, as DM, I had to make my own allowances for when I used those few monsters).
So, from the top: first, let us assume two groups (PartyA and PartyB) are both surprised in the standard 2 in 6. You are correct that PartyA rolling 6 and PartyB rolling 1, means Party A has 5 segments of surprise on their side. That's segments, for anything other than combat, PartyA are still limited in their actions. A spell that takes 3 segments casting takes 3 segments, the Party can only move at Segment speed (their Move in feet not game inches). Also, in that first segment, any missile weapon ready to go gets an extra shot.
That chart only goes up to 3 segments, but there's nothing to dictate that 3 is the limit. Therefore, 6v2 and 5v1 is 4 segments and 6v1 is 5 segments.
What the DM has to decide is the following headmess: A character with 18Dex is in a party that is surprised for 3 or less segments; the DM can either say that the character is not surprised and the remaining party is or the whole party benefits from the Dex modifier. Due to the similarity in other rules, I always took it that the highest Dex modifier would affect the Party surprise. Therefore with a character possessing an 18 or 19 Dexterity, the most a party could be surprised is 2 segments. (the DMs Guide also says the DM can rule the Dex modifier is not applicable depending on the situation - e.g.: Invisible Stalker).
The ultimate headmess is: if PartyA is surprised only on a 1 in 6, PartyB roll a 2 (therefore Surprised) and Party A also roll 2 (not surprised). As PartyA is surprised 1 in 6, PartyB is surprised for 2 segments; and if PartyB rolled a 1 vs PartyA rolling a 2, PartyB would be surprised for 1 segment.
Headmess. Which is why people made their own rulings, but if you actually think about it, it does makes sort of sense - that being surprised 1 in 6 is meant to be a powerful tool.
For the Party that causes Surprise (such as the Halfling/Elf causing 4 in 6) will surprise the opponents more often, but often for less time.
Was that too much? did I break something? :) Surprise and Initiative are always tricky - use whatever method you want. Mr Gygax is famous for saying: "However you choose to do initiative and combat is correct."
Thanks for watching and I'm here to try and make things less complicated.
@@TheEldarGuy Nice explanation and great videos. Your deconstruction PH/DMG and Class guides are excellent reading (especially with the examples). They help understand the concepts so much better.
Yea, the surprise thing gets everyone as it seems simple initially but with a lot of exceptions. One way is to simplify and just go with B/X style and DM fiat. If determined, there is a chart in the old Dragon magazine 133 that gives the percentages to tackle all the variations (which is also available in Ken-Do-Nim's excellent house-rule document at Dragonsfoot forums).
Wait till one has to figure out the gotchas of Cleric turning undead. Yikes!
A lot of research required getting into 1e as a DM, but I think it is one of the things that makes learning it so much fun and rewarding: it's like an archaeological dig at times, uncovering relics and piecing it all together.
The DM is doing most of the heavy lifting. For the players, most of this is behind the screen so one just rolls the dice and hears the results, which is a great way to maintain the mystery and ease of gaming for newcomers.
Gygax packed so much information in the core books for all sorts of things, it's just fun to read, even if it is head scratching at times.
Hey there,
First, thanks for watching and thank you even more for commenting. I stumble through these hoping to be providing relevant information for people who are wanting to get into 1st Edition AD&D.
It is a tough slog, when you add in that the people who can help are getting fewer and fewer, I think it's important to try and put out more information.
As I wrote in one of my pieces: Everyone has their own way of doing something, it was never uncommon to hear "That's not what we did. We did it this way." It's a mark of a good game that can appeal to many and for the most part we're all playing the same game - even if done differently.
In the modern era, I think some of the lifting can be put to the players, but the expectation is always going to be there that the DM knows enough to make a ruling on whatever may come up.
Captcoragus and GrogTalk are good resources to tap into also.
Thanks for watching, I appreciate your time - any other questions let me know.
@@squirekev I'm STILL scratching my head. The video just spawned more Qs.
Allow me to offer you a correction because surprise is an area of great confusion. In your example with the orcs, a roll of 2 indicates 2 lost segments and and the roll of 5 for the party indicates 5 segments of action. The party now has SEVEN active segments to act. A ranger is only surprised on a 1 in 6 but surprises on a 1,2,or 3, giving them a possible maximum of 9 segments of action. Halflings operating solo surprise on 1 through 4, giving them a theoretical maximum of 10 segments of action. For you R.A. Salvatore fans, Drizzt Do'Urden a drow, surprised only on a 1 in 8 and being a Ranger surprising opponents on a 1 in 3, could have 11 possible segments of action in a surprise scenario. That's 22 attacks from our hero before a response, considering his dual scimitars. Thus, the legend was born. Where it gets a little confusing is when any party rolls a 1 because a roll of one is always considered surprise. So, in some circumstances, under normal conditions, a roll of 2 vs. a roll of 1 means the roll of 2 has 2 segments of advantage versus 1 lost segment. So, going back to our ranger since they are a special case, let's say the monsters roll a 3 and are surprised, and our ranger rolls a 2 , not surprised.. How's that supposed to work because the monsters clearly have a higher roll. Simple, the monsters are surprised for 3 segments, and the ranger is not surprised and has 2 segments to act for a total of 5 segments of action. Had the ranger rolled a 1, his surprise powers are no longer applicable, and the monsters now have 4 segments to act because the ranger is surprised. ( I have had some DMs argue that the monsters would also be surprised here, but that's malarkey) Surprise is a winner takes all event unless there is a tie at 1 to 1 or 2 to 2 under normal circumstances. I know it seems arbitrary as hell. The easiest way to calculate surprise is asking yourself if the die roll indicates surprise or not. If Surprise is indicated, you lose that many segments of time. If you are not surprised, you gain that many segments of time with the idea that a surprised party can not surprise another party if they themselves are surprised with 1 always considered surprised regardless of conditions. Then calculate distance of d3 inches or 10 to 30 feet. You move roghly 10 feet per segment unless heavily encumbered. So even if you surprise a group at say 30 feet, moving to engage may not guarantee a surprise segments of action if you have 3 or fewer segments of time to act. Missile weapons that are readied and a spell with a casting time of 3 segments or less would be fast enough to engage. A monk in this scenario becomes a lethal asset able to move, say, 18 or 20 feet in a segment, but that is a tale for another day. Hope this helps. You can see now how lethal surprise is in AD&D and why so many of us placed a huge emphasis on high dexterity to mitigate surprise with reaction adjustments. We had an invisible 1/2 orc assassin surprise a target in our last game 6 vs.2 for 8 backstab attacks that generated close to 100 points of damage with the backstabbing multiplier. Kinda made the save versus poison non sequitur, but had he rolled a 1, he would have gotten whacked, and on a 2, both he and the target would then go to initiative.
Thanks for your reply, but what we have is numerous examples running about.
First, Orcs are surprised on a roll of 1 or 2. If they are surprised, and the party is not surprised (keeping it to a non-Ranger party), this is a roll of 3 through 6. Whatever the difference is between the rolls is the length of surprise actions (1 segment per surprise round)... therefore an Orc rolling a 2 is surprised and a party rolling a 4 means they are not. The orcs are flat footed for 2 segments (4 - 2).
If the party rolled a 1 for their surprise, then both the party (non-ranger) and the Orcs (who rolled the 2) are surprised... however tge Orcs may recover faster and have 1 surprise round of action (unless the party have dex adjustments that alter the surprise rounds).
The big head mess comes in with altered surprise values like the Monk or those funky beasts for 1 in 8 or even 1 in 10. Then you have to resort to % rolls with each pip of a 6-sided die being 16%. Your 1in 8 critter is surprised 12.5% of the time. To be fair, use the % for the check.
@@TheEldarGuy I updated my post to be more legible. Give it another go and see if I clarified the issue.
@TheEldarGuy how do you mitigate a subtraction of die values when, say, the orcs roll a 2, and the ranger rolls a 2? Are the orcs surprised for 0 segments, and both parties go to the initiative? Clearly, that can't be the case when the ranger can surprise them on a 1, 2, or 3. Special characters pose some challenges to surprise. But we do not subtract the dice from each other. We subtract the values generated. In this above case, the orcs have 2 lost segments, i.e., -2 segments of action, and the ranger has gained 2 positive segments, so the equation looks like this the Rangers +2-(-2 orcs)=4. Had the orcs rolled a 3 and the ranger a 2, would the orcs have a segment over the ranger?
@@dcw007 A Ranger, surprised 1 in 6, is not surprised from 2 through 6.
If, the party (with Ranger) rolls a 2, they are not surprised. The Orc rolling a 2, means the Orcs are Surprised for 2 segments, if the Orcs rolled a 1 vs the Ranger 2, they are surprised for 1 surprise round.
@@TheEldarGuy how many surprise rounds does the party have when they roll a 6 on the surprise dice versus the 2 from the orcs?