In addition to minimizing human error, a lead sled works great to hold a rifle still while making scope adjustments for a two shot zero. It also helps ensure the accuracy of the first shot of the two-shot zero. Of course, the final test is taking shots using only whatever aids, if any, will be available in the field. While people are often quick to share target hits made with front and rear bags, sharing what they can do without them is far less common. Extra points for using a brake rotor as dead weight.
I use a sled for load development because I try to take myself out of the equation as much as possible. Don't know if it helps or not but that's always what I've done. Tom You have excellent content. Always look forward to your videos!
I have had the lead sled since they came out 20+ years ago or more and they are great for magnums but for non magnums I like the regular rest better and I get better groups with the regular rest! 60+ years of hunting reloading and collecting bolt action rifles there is a need for both just friends in what caliber and how much shooting your doing! Thanks again Tom for a great video for the newbies and a reminder for us old guys too
I have a Lead Sled and a front rest, but I've stopped using them. I get much better results with home made sand bags front and rear. Maybe it's just me.
Any support helps. You know you best. Have fun shooting. Everything has its uses but there is no one size fits all. All we had in the Army were sandbags and they were only in the bunkers. They were the bunkers.
As another gentleman said prior the Lead Sled shines in load development when you are trying to get the tightest of groups. Even with a good rear bag one can easily pull a shot by just a tiny bit. I have both and have tried many shooting rests. The quality of that rest makes a large difference as well. A cheap rest may be better than no rest, but a better rest is always the best. I have upgraded a time or two on the rest.
I've always used bags, myself. I've never had any issues zeroing a new gun or scope off of bags, but I could see the benefit of a lead sled if you are doing load testing, and need as much consistency as possible.
I used a sled, not a Caldwell but very similar, and then I changed to the same front mount and a bag just like yours and didn’t see a major point of impact change but my groups did tighten up a bit, especially from my browning BAR
I’ve done a bit of bench shooting both with a sled on on a rest. I have a few thoughts. The idea of “removing the person” from the system is sort of preposterous. The person is an integral part of the system. The key to rifle accuracy is repeating the same motions, not eliminating the motions. The rifle and shooter both need to act and respond together in a constant manner. From cheek weld, to tigger squeeze, guiding the rifle through the recoil, everything the same, this is the key to accuracy. A sled is ideal when you’re doing a bore sighting because the rifle needs to be held a stable position. But, once the bore sighting is accomplished, put the sled away. I’ve heard many people say that a rifle is more accurate than the shooter. But, the rifle was meant to be shot by a person. Without a person as part of the system, there’s no way system can be optimized.
I use a boat cushion, or two, or a front sand bag if available, on front and hold the gun in the rear. Every stand I hunt out of only has a 4-6 inch ledge to rest front of the gun on, so I try to be as close to field conditions as possible. The lead sled also adds a inch or more LOP to the rifle, so your sight picture/cheek weld is altered. Zeroing using the sled will add that perspective/fit error to your field accuracy, which is NOT added in front rest rear bag setup, or self-supporting the stock in the shoulder.
Appreciate you comparing lead sled with shooting off a rest. I agree that lead sled is good asset to have when I wan to take myself out of equation; usually when I want to check how well a particular load performs or when I shoot the 35-338 Norma mag or my 416 Lapua, both are wildcats with plenty of recoil. We too use an almost identical piece of 2x10 (???) for raising the rear bag with Caldwell front adjustable rest. Never zeroed with sled and will continue to do so with bag and Caldwell adjustable rest. Thanks again for an excellent video.
A high-end muzzle brake can tame recoil by as much as 60% on heavy magnums. I have them on my 300 Win. Mag and my 7mm STW. Having said that many cheap muzzle brakes don' t reduce the recoil the same. The brakes I have are Answer Systems no longer in production. A brake nearly as good is made by Williams Sights in Michigan. I wouldn't shoot a heavy magnum rifle without a high-end brake. My magnums only have the recoil of about a 260 Remington.
Some months ago I noticed you place a piece of 2x6 under the rear bag and I have copied that practice as it is a more comfortable position so thanks for that! I started off using a lead sled but it was never as comfortable as the front rest and rabbit ears rear bag I use now. Many claim that the sled will wreck your optic and their argument makes sense. Now I only use the sled for cleaning and bore sighting.
I use my lead sled as basically added weight I don’t weight it down I let it slide around with recoil. It takes alot if the sharpness out of recoil. I am not a believer in weighting it down to the point it won’t move. Good comparison. I can’t say I’ve noticed a difference in groups sizes with one or the other.
Invested in the Caldwell Lead Sled and used it to sight in my .243 Remington 700. I noticed my range has concrete table which seem very low. The sled allowed a much better upright position similar to standing. This is a plus in my opinion. Rear bag and adjustable from rest I can’t get a comfortable height without shimming the rear rest. Seems less comfortable than sled.
I use both of these as well, with the lead sled for sighting in and for checking heavy magnums. I don't use a weight though. I noted that your rifle forearm was positioned about 3 inches forward on the rear bag shots too, so that may change impact slightly?
Great video, I've contemplated buying a Lead Sled after using a friends but never did. I use the Caldwell shooting bags off of a Stable Table because of their portability, as where I live, we don't have a range other than my buddy's gravel pit that we can get 100 yard shooting in. I do all of my load development as well as sighting in on those bags and the only issue I have found is the height of the bags like you mentioned. That said, I have always had great results with all my rifles including my 30 Nosler and also my cousins 338 Lapua, both rifles shooting sub 1/2 MOA with that combo and this video confirms, to me, I don't need the Lead Sled to add to my pile of goodies. Thanks for this video Tom and best of luck with your hunting season!
Tom I certainly enjoyed this. I'm in from hunting as it has become too hot today and the west wind just does me no good. So, I first noticed the rotor as a weight in the lead sled, never thought of that so great idea for whomsoever had that idea. Second, I was admiring the cabbed 4x4 tractor. That's a big difference from an 8N. Lastly, I've wondered about (contemplated) getting a lead sled, but I've just found that shooting off of the bags seems to work for me. I have a small squeeze bag for the rear to help get me right on target to squeeze the trigger. I'd like to try a front rest like what you have as it would be a lot more convenient in getting the height adjusted. Bot for now, the bags seem to work. Thanks for the video and showing the impact differences. very interesting.
I have both and a lead sled does shine in load development. It does take you more out of the equation as Tom said. If I am shooting a proven load, I just use my shooting rest and bags. However, when trying to get the tightest groups possible I use a lead sled to make sure I don't pull off target in the least. For zeroing a rifle, the Lead Sled can help you do it in less shots with confidence you didn't pull off target and it is easier to get it zeroed with the two-shot method. It's better to get the higher end Lead Sled if you do go that route. Not the entry level anyway. At least a Lead Sled 2.
Always wondered if I should get a lead sled, after watching your demo, I'll just keep using my bags. Heaviest recoil I feel is 30-06 or a hot handloaded 45-70. After many years of shooting,recoil isn't a problem for me. I do see how it could really help new or younger shooters, also if you're shooting at extreme range. Enjoy all your work Tom, now go get that big 10pt this season!
Great comparison, thank you. This helps answer the question I've had for a while - as a reloader, when I'm working on new loads I want to test the load, not my shooting skills, and I was wondering if a lead sled or something similar would help. On a good day, when I'm on my game, I don't think there would be much difference at all, but on those other days... maybe? I typically shoot off front and rear bags now btw.
First, understand that the purpose of any good position is to transfer the stability of the ground into the position and the bottom line is stability can be realized from a prone sling supported position. That’s to say bone and sling can deliver muscular relaxation and from muscular relaxation the shooter can feel need to adjust natural point of aim to desired sight picture free of wobble. So , why prone with sling instead of lead sled or bench? It’s because lead sled and bench separate the shooter from gun and ground and thus there is no sensitivity for having consistency as the trigger is pulled, which leads to inconsistent recoil resistance which disturbs aim.
Nice you like shooting prone. You miss the picture. The lead sled is a tool. It has it's uses to fine tune ammunition or sight a scope in with two shots. I would like to see how well you do on your belly with just a rest and bag or bipod and bag to sight in with two shots. Many people just do not shoot prone. Some people do not shoot at a bench either. I use the Lead Sled for load development and quickly zeroing rifles. That is what it is made for. It works well. It is not a replacement for anything else. It is just a tool for people that don't want to waste a lot of money sighting rifles in the old-fashioned way and want to take human error out of load development.
The only way it prints differently is taking you out of the equation. A rest and bag also print differently than without a rest. A rest without a rear bag also prints differently. Unless of course the shooter is flawless.
I quit using my Lead Sled when I discovered that precision and poi are different than when using front/rear bags. When you take the recoil out of a rifle, it's unnatural. If you zero with a sled, you should verify from a good solid field type position. Thanks Tom!
That is interesting. It is good to test afterwards for sure the way you intend to shoot it. I have not had the experience of the POI changing enough to notice. Could be a number of factors in the human element.
I almost bought a lead sled recently. But during research Ive seen reports saying that they can damage wood stock because it doesnt allow recoil. I also read that they mess with the barrel harmonics because of the removal of recoil.
They are great! I have my neck rapped in metal plates front and rear with over 20 screws in my spine and the sled with bigger rifles is great but be careful not to put too much weight on the sled or it could damage the rifle stock they call it a sled for a reason!
Been using what I call a hybrid with traditional hunting rifles - Tack Driver by Caldwell. It works great especially with rounded stocks. Don't own a lead sled but also use the Caldwell BR too.
You are right on. That is really what it's made for. That and load development. It wasn't made to replace a rest and bag, bipod or just bags. It's just a limited use tool that works good for what it was made for.
Interesting video on two very useful set ups. I prefer the front rest/rear bag on rifles with recoil up to about 375HH magnum levels. The lead sled is nice for hard recoiling rifles, but one has to be careful not to add too much weight. You want to dampen the recoil not stop it. Too much weight can split the stock
I had a scope that went bad shooting a .300win bag using a lead sled. I was lucky that the scope manufacturer repaired it, as there are a couple that state using a lead sled voids the warranty. You need cushion behind the rifle to prevent too much pressur against the scope, especially in larger calibers. I have also have found for whatever reason, I get better groups using bags.
After purchasing a new lead sled, I started reading complaints about using them. Complaints are broken stocks, broken scopes and point of impact differing from shooting off of bags. I haven't used my sled yet but am now wary about using it.
Much of that is B.S. If you are concerned about damage from recoil, use it with no or less weight. It will move but you can just move it back. They are great for two shot zeros and working up loads in load development. Great for securing rifle to clean as well. But a rest and a bag are more user friendly and more fun to use shooting off the bench for pleasure. If you don't strap the rifle down with a strap it should shoot the same as off a bag. The point of impact will only change without the strap because of human movement, pulling off target. If you shoot without pulling off target the point of impact should be the same so long as you don't strap the rifle in the Lead Sled. I have both and use the lead sled for two shot zeros and load development. Other than that, I use my rest and rear bag. The sled moves with recoil unless you put weight on it. Many people just rewrite what they have read from other people.
Wonder how many scopes, mounts and stocks have been damaged on heavy recoiling magnum rifles due to a lead sled? That energy has to go somewhere and I never felt it was good for a hard kicker. Tom did mention honing your shooting skills off a rest and a bag. For me,the way to go. YMMV.
I don't buy any of that. A lead sled does not keep the stock in a fixed position. It reduces recoil but it still gives. It is pretty much a myth. It would take a lot of shooting off of one of those with the heaviest of loads for that to happen. A Lead Sled is a good tool for two shot zeroes and load development, or a great gun cleaning rest. But let's get real it is not what one would want to shoot off of all the time. Shooting rests and bags are more comfortable and enjoyable to shoot off of. Unless one shot hundreds if not thousands of rounds of heavy magnum caliber with the heaviest of weight on the Lead Sled would it do much damage to anything. And if one has enough sense to put a high-end muzzle brake on their magnums, they will have zero chance of a Lead Sled damaging anything.
The reason I do not use a Lead Sled is because I have had some rifles kick themselves out ot their wooden stocks. A perfect example was a Sako rifle in .338 Win. Mag..I only used sandbags when not hunting. Then I used whatever natural rest I could find or no rest at all. After about ten years the stock split trough the wrist. That rifle had two recoil lugs - one square one just ahead of the magazine and the other, rounded one, at the rear tang. The forward one had a through bolt. The rear one did not. The rounded tang acted like a wedge causing the wrist to split. I believe the thin pieces of wood on either side of the magazine flexed, driving the tang into the stock. A solid stop like a Lead Sled would make that worse, likely splitting the stock much earlier.
The stock was junk or it wouldn't have split, Winchester had a lot of trouble with split stocks years ago , long before lead sleds . Weatherby's are the worst pos I've had , one a Mark V Lasser blew the fancy burl knot in two .
I have both rests make it even the front rest has no weights take the weights off the lead sled without weights with a high powered rifle the lead sled jumps back and the front jumps up which does not help your point of impact the front rest with the legs extended the rest does not move which helps with accuracy
Well Done.l n well said. I Never have used the Lead Sled . My personal thoughts on it very hard on the rifle n optics. Do know n mainly reports of cracked stocks with them. Maybe some day will try one myself. Actually won a version of it recently but haven't tried it yet
If you don't put a lot of weight on it moves by sliding back on the bench. You control the weight you put on it. So, if anyone did have a super heavy recoiling rifle it will not damage a thing if you don't put excessive amounts of weight on it so that the rifle has no give. I have a lead sled. I only use it for two shot zeros and load development. That is where it shines. It is not a do all or replacement of other shooting tools like rests, bags, bipods and such. I have never had issues with damaging anything. Having said that I do have magnums, but they do have muzzle brakes. I use this to zero rifles and for load development. So honestly, I don't shoot hundreds and thousands of rounds out of my rifles off of the lead sled. It is more fun and more comfortable shooting with a rest and bag. But you won't two shot zero off of a rest and bag. You won't get super tight groups developed off of a bag that you might get off a lead sled. So, if two shot zeros or load development are not high on your priorities you can live without a lead sled. I like mine. There is just too much of an echo system of negativity on this shooters tool. One can always put a good efficient muzzle brake on a heavy recoil rifle rather than using a Lead Sled. I hope this helps you in your thoughts. I like my Lead Sled, but I only use it in a limited fashion as it was meant to be. It's not a fun shooting tool. It does what it is supposed to do.
One must be careful using heavy recoiling, wood stocked rifles that are unbedded or improperly bedded while using a lead sled.....if the tang of the receiver is in contact with the stock, it can act as a wedge and eventually split the stock.
I attached a wooded ball a little bigger than a golf ball to the wrist of my rifle. the gun has a bipod. what I do is make a fist with my left hand and rest the ball between my thumb and index finger of the fist. it's very easy to hold a dead steady aim and easy to make adjustments just by making a tighter fist or relaxing it. I got tired of carrying sandbags and cushions or a bulky lead sled. I just want the gun its ammo and a monocular to see where the holes are. hell, my car is so small I have to put my rifle in the front seat.
Congratulations. You are easy to find happiness. I need a full-sized Ford F-150 and all the fun stuff for shooting it can haul to make me a happy camper. I have all the shooting options, AR's and bolt guns for most all categories of shooting as well as pistols and shotguns, bipods for AR's, shooting rest and bags, and of course a Lead Sled. Sometimes simplicity is the real way to go. It was much easier when I had less.
Many scope manufacturers will tell you that their scopes are not designed for the repeated beatings they take on a lead sled. Get a good front bipod and an Armageddon Gear rear bag. Guarantee you see an improvement in group size.
The Lead Sled does what it's made for. Two shot zeros and load development are what it is a tool for. Bipods are not an answer to anything. They too are a tool with their limits. I usually use the Lead Sled for load development and two shot zeros. Your bipod isn't going to do either very well. I have bipods I use on a couple of ARs at the range. But honestly a good rest and bag are far better for most other rifles. All of those things are different tools for different applications. Hunting I use none of these things. People who just shoot at the range can do it the way they like best. It doesn't make anyone any better or worse for what they choose. One size does not fit all. Lead Sleds are a great limited tool. They are not a replacement or a do all tool.
Be careful with the lead sled when shooting magnums that have wood stocks. The energy of the round being fired is almost totally absorbed by the wood stock…. Energy transfer to your shoulder will be minimal, not so with the wood stock……😊
Really? With a good muzzle brake which makes sense for anyone shooting a magnum it really wouldn't matter. Lead Sleds are really a specialty tool for easy zeroing or load development. It's just another tool. It's not a replacement for a rest and bag at the range. If one shoots a lot and loads their own ammo and want precision, they are missing the boat if not using a Lead Sled to take the shooter out of the equation
@@garrytalley8009 Yes, Really. Lead sleds will split wood stocks, tell me where is all that energy transfer is going to….. Very simple physics, are you an engineer? Ever wonder why wood stocks in magnum calibers have 2 recoil bolts placed in the stocks…….. Please check your modulus of elasticity calculations more carefully. I have never flown in a wood framed airplane for a reason. They are made out of aircraft grade aluminum, titanium and now carbon fiber…..
@@williamfeldner9356 If you use it without weight, it won't damage a stock. It isn't locked in a vice. The sled slides. Sure, it is possible if someone put maximum weight on the sled with a large magnum without an efficient brake. BTW did you read that I only use this for developing loads? And think about it with no weight it isn't even any different than using a rest and a bag. It slides.
@@williamfeldner9356 You really are a nut case. Only if you put a lot of weight on the lead sled will it crack a stock or anything with the largest of magnums. The sled will slide on the bench with the recoil. I have a 7mm STW with a wood stock never a problem. BTW that is an 8mm Remington Magnum necked down to a 7mm. Get a life. You are no engineer for sure.
Do think sleds put additional stress on a stock especially with higher power calibers. Because the stock has to absorb the additional weight impulse of the recoil and the sled.
Yes, this is absolutely true; and the main reason that I have stopped using my Lead Sled for any of my bigger caliber and magnum caliber rifles. I haven't split a stock yet, but I'm just not gonna take the risk.
Хобби
In addition to minimizing human error, a lead sled works great to hold a rifle still while making scope adjustments for a two shot zero. It also helps ensure the accuracy of the first shot of the two-shot zero. Of course, the final test is taking shots using only whatever aids, if any, will be available in the field. While people are often quick to share target hits made with front and rear bags, sharing what they can do without them is far less common.
Extra points for using a brake rotor as dead weight.
Hah yes! Brake rotor
I use a sled for load development because I try to take myself out of the equation as much as possible. Don't know if it helps or not but that's always what I've done. Tom You have excellent content. Always look forward to your videos!
Finely someone did a comparison Thank You . I feel the same way I will keep using by rest and rear bag. Darren
I have had the lead sled since they came out 20+ years ago or more and they are great for magnums but for non magnums I like the regular rest better and I get better groups with the regular rest! 60+ years of hunting reloading and collecting bolt action rifles there is a need for both just friends in what caliber and how much shooting your doing! Thanks again Tom for a great video for the newbies and a reminder for us old guys too
I have a Lead Sled and a front rest, but I've stopped using them. I get much better results with home made sand bags front and rear. Maybe it's just me.
Any support helps. You know you best. Have fun shooting. Everything has its uses but there is no one size fits all. All we had in the Army were sandbags and they were only in the bunkers. They were the bunkers.
As another gentleman said prior the Lead Sled shines in load development when you are trying to get the tightest of groups. Even with a good rear bag one can easily pull a shot by just a tiny bit. I have both and have tried many shooting rests. The quality of that rest makes a large difference as well. A cheap rest may be better than no rest, but a better rest is always the best. I have upgraded a time or two on the rest.
I've always used bags, myself. I've never had any issues zeroing a new gun or scope off of bags, but I could see the benefit of a lead sled if you are doing load testing, and need as much consistency as possible.
I used a sled, not a Caldwell but very similar, and then I changed to the same front mount and a bag just like yours and didn’t see a major point of impact change but my groups did tighten up a bit, especially from my browning BAR
I’ve done a bit of bench shooting both with a sled on on a rest. I have a few thoughts. The idea of “removing the person” from the system is sort of preposterous. The person is an integral part of the system. The key to rifle accuracy is repeating the same motions, not eliminating the motions. The rifle and shooter both need to act and respond together in a constant manner. From cheek weld, to tigger squeeze, guiding the rifle through the recoil, everything the same, this is the key to accuracy. A sled is ideal when you’re doing a bore sighting because the rifle needs to be held a stable position. But, once the bore sighting is accomplished, put the sled away.
I’ve heard many people say that a rifle is more accurate than the shooter. But, the rifle was meant to be shot by a person. Without a person as part of the system, there’s no way system can be optimized.
I use a boat cushion, or two, or a front sand bag if available, on front and hold the gun in the rear. Every stand I hunt out of only has a 4-6 inch ledge to rest front of the gun on, so I try to be as close to field conditions as possible.
The lead sled also adds a inch or more LOP to the rifle, so your sight picture/cheek weld is altered. Zeroing using the sled will add that perspective/fit error to your field accuracy, which is NOT added in front rest rear bag setup, or self-supporting the stock in the shoulder.
Appreciate you comparing lead sled with shooting off a rest. I agree that lead sled is good asset to have when I wan to take myself out of equation; usually when I want to check how well a particular load performs or when I shoot the 35-338 Norma mag or my 416 Lapua, both are wildcats with plenty of recoil. We too use an almost identical piece of 2x10 (???) for raising the rear bag with Caldwell front adjustable rest. Never zeroed with sled and will continue to do so with bag and Caldwell adjustable rest. Thanks again for an excellent video.
A high-end muzzle brake can tame recoil by as much as 60% on heavy magnums. I have them on my 300 Win. Mag and my 7mm STW. Having said that many cheap muzzle brakes don' t reduce the recoil the same. The brakes I have are Answer Systems no longer in production. A brake nearly as good is made by Williams Sights in Michigan. I wouldn't shoot a heavy magnum rifle without a high-end brake. My magnums only have the recoil of about a 260 Remington.
I appreciate your down to earth attitude
Some months ago I noticed you place a piece of 2x6 under the rear bag and I have copied that practice as it is a more comfortable position so thanks for that! I started off using a lead sled but it was never as comfortable as the front rest and rabbit ears rear bag I use now. Many claim that the sled will wreck your optic and their argument makes sense. Now I only use the sled for cleaning and bore sighting.
I have heard the bs about them wrecking your scope , etc. after using them for thousands of rounds I can assure that is pure bs
I use my lead sled as basically added weight I don’t weight it down I let it slide around with recoil. It takes alot if the sharpness out of recoil. I am not a believer in weighting it down to the point it won’t move. Good comparison. I can’t say I’ve noticed a difference in groups sizes with one or the other.
I've never shot from a lead sled, but I may have to get one now it could definitely help, especially working up new loads
They are very good for load development and two shot zeros.
Invested in the Caldwell Lead Sled and used it to sight in my .243 Remington 700. I noticed my range has concrete table which seem very low. The sled allowed a much better upright position similar to standing. This is a plus in my opinion. Rear bag and adjustable from rest I can’t get a comfortable height without shimming the rear rest. Seems less comfortable than sled.
Hello Tom, good to see you again. Thanks for the video and best of luck with your new home project. God bless😎👍
I use both of these as well, with the lead sled for sighting in and for checking heavy magnums. I don't use a weight though. I noted that your rifle forearm was positioned about 3 inches forward on the rear bag shots too, so that may change impact slightly?
Great video, I've contemplated buying a Lead Sled after using a friends but never did. I use the Caldwell shooting bags off of a Stable Table because of their portability, as where I live, we don't have a range other than my buddy's gravel pit that we can get 100 yard shooting in. I do all of my load development as well as sighting in on those bags and the only issue I have found is the height of the bags like you mentioned. That said, I have always had great results with all my rifles including my 30 Nosler and also my cousins 338 Lapua, both rifles shooting sub 1/2 MOA with that combo and this video confirms, to me, I don't need the Lead Sled to add to my pile of goodies. Thanks for this video Tom and best of luck with your hunting season!
Thanks for another good video. Have never used a lead sled. Always have used a front rest and rear bag.
Tom I certainly enjoyed this. I'm in from hunting as it has become too hot today and the west wind just does me no good. So, I first noticed the rotor as a weight in the lead sled, never thought of that so great idea for whomsoever had that idea. Second, I was admiring the cabbed 4x4 tractor. That's a big difference from an 8N. Lastly, I've wondered about (contemplated) getting a lead sled, but I've just found that shooting off of the bags seems to work for me. I have a small squeeze bag for the rear to help get me right on target to squeeze the trigger. I'd like to try a front rest like what you have as it would be a lot more convenient in getting the height adjusted. Bot for now, the bags seem to work. Thanks for the video and showing the impact differences. very interesting.
I have both and a lead sled does shine in load development. It does take you more out of the equation as Tom said. If I am shooting a proven load, I just use my shooting rest and bags. However, when trying to get the tightest groups possible I use a lead sled to make sure I don't pull off target in the least. For zeroing a rifle, the Lead Sled can help you do it in less shots with confidence you didn't pull off target and it is easier to get it zeroed with the two-shot method. It's better to get the higher end Lead Sled if you do go that route. Not the entry level anyway. At least a Lead Sled 2.
@@garrytalley8009 Thanks Garry. I was looking at one at Academy the other day. I can certainly see the benefits you mentioned.
I have a lead sled. What size brake rotor are you using to hold it down?
Always wondered if I should get a lead sled, after watching your demo, I'll just keep using my bags. Heaviest recoil I feel is 30-06 or a hot handloaded 45-70. After many years of shooting,recoil isn't a problem for me. I do see how it could really help new or younger shooters, also if you're shooting at extreme range. Enjoy all your work Tom, now go get that big 10pt this season!
Great comparison, thank you. This helps answer the question I've had for a while - as a reloader, when I'm working on new loads I want to test the load, not my shooting skills, and I was wondering if a lead sled or something similar would help. On a good day, when I'm on my game, I don't think there would be much difference at all, but on those other days... maybe? I typically shoot off front and rear bags now btw.
There is a different of inpact on sled to shoulder . You are correct.If you are hunting in normal distance it dosent matter.
First, understand that the purpose of any good position is to transfer the stability of the ground into the position and the bottom line is stability can be realized from a prone sling supported position. That’s to say bone and sling can deliver muscular relaxation and from muscular relaxation the shooter can feel need to adjust natural point of aim to desired sight picture free of wobble. So , why prone with sling instead of lead sled or bench? It’s because lead sled and bench separate the shooter from gun and ground and thus there is no sensitivity for having consistency as the trigger is pulled, which leads to inconsistent recoil resistance which disturbs aim.
Nice you like shooting prone. You miss the picture. The lead sled is a tool. It has it's uses to fine tune ammunition or sight a scope in with two shots. I would like to see how well you do on your belly with just a rest and bag or bipod and bag to sight in with two shots. Many people just do not shoot prone. Some people do not shoot at a bench either. I use the Lead Sled for load development and quickly zeroing rifles. That is what it is made for. It works well. It is not a replacement for anything else. It is just a tool for people that don't want to waste a lot of money sighting rifles in the old-fashioned way and want to take human error out of load development.
Great experiment!!!! I have always thought Lead Slide verse Sand Bags would print differently.
The only way it prints differently is taking you out of the equation. A rest and bag also print differently than without a rest. A rest without a rear bag also prints differently. Unless of course the shooter is flawless.
I quit using my Lead Sled when I discovered that precision and poi are different than when using front/rear bags. When you take the recoil out of a rifle, it's unnatural. If you zero with a sled, you should verify from a good solid field type position. Thanks Tom!
That is interesting. It is good to test afterwards for sure the way you intend to shoot it. I have not had the experience of the POI changing enough to notice. Could be a number of factors in the human element.
@@garrytalley8009 I won't argue with you. As usual, your mileage may vary.
I almost bought a lead sled recently. But during research Ive seen reports saying that they can damage wood stock because it doesnt allow recoil. I also read that they mess with the barrel harmonics because of the removal of recoil.
Mount the lead sled on a skateboard… that should fix it.
I need to get a lead sled. Used bag and front rest my whole life. Lead sled is got to be a shoulder saver.
They are great! I have my neck rapped in metal plates front and rear with over 20 screws in my spine and the sled with bigger rifles is great but be careful not to put too much weight on the sled or it could damage the rifle stock they call it a sled for a reason!
@@edwardabrams4972 I have shot countless rounds from a sled , never hurt anything
Been using what I call a hybrid with traditional hunting rifles - Tack Driver by Caldwell. It works great especially with rounded stocks. Don't own a lead sled but also use the Caldwell BR too.
I use lead sled to sight in guns then go to bags so I know if I’m accurate
You are right on. That is really what it's made for. That and load development. It wasn't made to replace a rest and bag, bipod or just bags. It's just a limited use tool that works good for what it was made for.
Interesting video on two very useful set ups. I prefer the front rest/rear bag on rifles with recoil up to about 375HH magnum levels. The lead sled is nice for hard recoiling rifles, but one has to be careful not to add too much weight. You want to dampen the recoil not stop it. Too much weight can split the stock
I've shot everything up to 378 wyb and never damaged a stock
I had a scope that went bad shooting a .300win bag using a lead sled. I was lucky that the scope manufacturer repaired it, as there are a couple that state using a lead sled voids the warranty. You need cushion behind the rifle to prevent too much pressur against the scope, especially in larger calibers. I have also have found for whatever reason, I get better groups using bags.
I've shot everything up to a 378 wyb and had no problems, what scopes won't stand damage if you used a leadsled , never heard of any
Thanks, I've long wondered about that.
After purchasing a new lead sled, I started reading complaints about using them. Complaints are broken stocks, broken scopes and point of impact differing from shooting off of bags. I haven't used my sled yet but am now wary about using it.
Much of that is B.S. If you are concerned about damage from recoil, use it with no or less weight. It will move but you can just move it back. They are great for two shot zeros and working up loads in load development. Great for securing rifle to clean as well. But a rest and a bag are more user friendly and more fun to use shooting off the bench for pleasure. If you don't strap the rifle down with a strap it should shoot the same as off a bag. The point of impact will only change without the strap because of human movement, pulling off target. If you shoot without pulling off target the point of impact should be the same so long as you don't strap the rifle in the Lead Sled. I have both and use the lead sled for two shot zeros and load development. Other than that, I use my rest and rear bag. The sled moves with recoil unless you put weight on it. Many people just rewrite what they have read from other people.
I have never had a problem , most of it is simply bs
Wonder how many scopes, mounts and stocks have been damaged on heavy recoiling magnum rifles due to a lead sled? That energy has to go somewhere and I never felt it was good for a hard kicker. Tom did mention honing your shooting skills off a rest and a bag. For me,the way to go. YMMV.
I don't buy any of that. A lead sled does not keep the stock in a fixed position. It reduces recoil but it still gives. It is pretty much a myth. It would take a lot of shooting off of one of those with the heaviest of loads for that to happen. A Lead Sled is a good tool for two shot zeroes and load development, or a great gun cleaning rest. But let's get real it is not what one would want to shoot off of all the time. Shooting rests and bags are more comfortable and enjoyable to shoot off of. Unless one shot hundreds if not thousands of rounds of heavy magnum caliber with the heaviest of weight on the Lead Sled would it do much damage to anything. And if one has enough sense to put a high-end muzzle brake on their magnums, they will have zero chance of a Lead Sled damaging anything.
I have shot thousands of rounds off a lead sled , up to 378 wyb, no problems that is simply a bunch of bs
The sled reduces recoil. Why in the world would it damage the scope? Doesn't jive. Maybe stresses the lugs but not enough to damage.
“I heerd that if’n ya shoots a 200 caliber rifle and 7 pound bullets with a balsa wood stock.. she’ll split!”
The reason I do not use a Lead Sled is because I have had some rifles kick themselves out ot their wooden stocks. A perfect example was a Sako rifle in .338 Win. Mag..I only used sandbags when not hunting. Then I used whatever natural rest I could find or no rest at all. After about ten years the stock split trough the wrist. That rifle had two recoil lugs - one square one just ahead of the magazine and the other, rounded one, at the rear tang. The forward one had a through bolt. The rear one did not. The rounded tang acted like a wedge causing the wrist to split. I believe the thin pieces of wood on either side of the magazine flexed, driving the tang into the stock. A solid stop like a Lead Sled would make that worse, likely splitting the stock much earlier.
The stock was junk or it wouldn't have split, Winchester had a lot of trouble with split stocks years ago , long before lead sleds . Weatherby's are the worst pos I've had , one a Mark V Lasser blew the fancy burl knot in two .
Front rest and rear bag is the way to go hands down for me
Opinions are like bungholes. Everybody has one.
I have both rests make it even the front rest has no weights take the weights off the lead sled without weights with a high powered rifle the lead sled jumps back and the front jumps up which does not help your point of impact the front rest with the legs extended the rest does not move which helps with accuracy
Well Done.l n well said. I Never have used the Lead Sled .
My personal thoughts on it very hard on the rifle n optics.
Do know n mainly reports of cracked stocks with them.
Maybe some day will try one myself.
Actually won a version of it recently but haven't tried it yet
If you don't put a lot of weight on it moves by sliding back on the bench. You control the weight you put on it. So, if anyone did have a super heavy recoiling rifle it will not damage a thing if you don't put excessive amounts of weight on it so that the rifle has no give. I have a lead sled. I only use it for two shot zeros and load development. That is where it shines. It is not a do all or replacement of other shooting tools like rests, bags, bipods and such. I have never had issues with damaging anything. Having said that I do have magnums, but they do have muzzle brakes. I use this to zero rifles and for load development. So honestly, I don't shoot hundreds and thousands of rounds out of my rifles off of the lead sled. It is more fun and more comfortable shooting with a rest and bag. But you won't two shot zero off of a rest and bag. You won't get super tight groups developed off of a bag that you might get off a lead sled. So, if two shot zeros or load development are not high on your priorities you can live without a lead sled. I like mine. There is just too much of an echo system of negativity on this shooters tool. One can always put a good efficient muzzle brake on a heavy recoil rifle rather than using a Lead Sled. I hope this helps you in your thoughts. I like my Lead Sled, but I only use it in a limited fashion as it was meant to be. It's not a fun shooting tool. It does what it is supposed to do.
I use lead sleds all the time on up to my 378 wyb, never had any of the issues people babble about
One must be careful using heavy recoiling, wood stocked rifles that are unbedded or improperly bedded while using a lead sled.....if the tang of the receiver is in contact with the stock, it can act as a wedge and eventually split the stock.
I attached a wooded ball a little bigger than a golf ball to the wrist of my rifle. the gun has a bipod. what I do is make a fist with my left hand and rest the ball between my thumb and index finger of the fist. it's very easy to hold a dead steady aim and easy to make adjustments just by making a tighter fist or relaxing it. I got tired of carrying sandbags and cushions or a bulky lead sled. I just want the gun its ammo and a monocular to see where the holes are. hell, my car is so small I have to put my rifle in the front seat.
Would like to see what that looks like.
Congratulations. You are easy to find happiness. I need a full-sized Ford F-150 and all the fun stuff for shooting it can haul to make me a happy camper. I have all the shooting options, AR's and bolt guns for most all categories of shooting as well as pistols and shotguns, bipods for AR's, shooting rest and bags, and of course a Lead Sled. Sometimes simplicity is the real way to go. It was much easier when I had less.
Many scope manufacturers will tell you that their scopes are not designed for the repeated beatings they take on a lead sled.
Get a good front bipod and an Armageddon Gear rear bag. Guarantee you see an improvement in group size.
The Lead Sled does what it's made for. Two shot zeros and load development are what it is a tool for. Bipods are not an answer to anything. They too are a tool with their limits. I usually use the Lead Sled for load development and two shot zeros. Your bipod isn't going to do either very well. I have bipods I use on a couple of ARs at the range. But honestly a good rest and bag are far better for most other rifles. All of those things are different tools for different applications. Hunting I use none of these things. People who just shoot at the range can do it the way they like best. It doesn't make anyone any better or worse for what they choose. One size does not fit all. Lead Sleds are a great limited tool. They are not a replacement or a do all tool.
Which scopes are that so I know not to buy one
Be careful with the lead sled when shooting magnums that have wood stocks. The energy of the round being fired is almost totally absorbed by the wood stock…. Energy transfer to your shoulder will be minimal, not so with the wood stock……😊
Really? With a good muzzle brake which makes sense for anyone shooting a magnum it really wouldn't matter. Lead Sleds are really a specialty tool for easy zeroing or load development. It's just another tool. It's not a replacement for a rest and bag at the range. If one shoots a lot and loads their own ammo and want precision, they are missing the boat if not using a Lead Sled to take the shooter out of the equation
@@garrytalley8009 Yes, Really. Lead sleds will split wood stocks, tell me where is all that energy transfer is going to….. Very simple physics, are you an engineer? Ever wonder why wood stocks in magnum calibers have 2 recoil bolts placed in the stocks…….. Please check your modulus of elasticity calculations more carefully. I have never flown in a wood framed airplane for a reason. They are made out of aircraft grade aluminum, titanium and now carbon fiber…..
@@williamfeldner9356 If you use it without weight, it won't damage a stock. It isn't locked in a vice. The sled slides. Sure, it is possible if someone put maximum weight on the sled with a large magnum without an efficient brake. BTW did you read that I only use this for developing loads? And think about it with no weight it isn't even any different than using a rest and a bag. It slides.
@@williamfeldner9356 You really are a nut case. Only if you put a lot of weight on the lead sled will it crack a stock or anything with the largest of magnums. The sled will slide on the bench with the recoil. I have a 7mm STW with a wood stock never a problem. BTW that is an 8mm Remington Magnum necked down to a 7mm. Get a life. You are no engineer for sure.
@@garrytalley8009 I've used them for up to my 378 wyb, have put lots of weight on them, thousands of rounds later , never had a problem
Do think sleds put additional stress on a stock especially with higher power calibers.
Because the stock has to absorb the additional weight impulse of the recoil and the sled.
Yes, this is absolutely true; and the main reason that I have stopped using my Lead Sled for any of my bigger caliber and magnum caliber rifles. I haven't split a stock yet, but I'm just not gonna take the risk.
If my stock is such junk it splits I don't want it anyway , thousands of rounds from a lead sled , up to 378 Wyb, no problems yet
My wife said she can out shoot me if the pistol don't make noise.
😎👍😎
I use the lead sled to zero it. Then I off hand it