@@flexairz To me that's even more confusing due to the lack of context. If I'm trying to land on this runway, then "fly it down the runway" is nonsensical.... do you want me to abort this landing and come around again? What's going on here?
I don’t think telling the pilot “fly it down the runway,faster plane behind you” is a good thing, it tells you why your instruction was changed. Good job !!!!!
@@taiwanjohn it just means what was said, they didnt say abort, they didnt say go around. been there twice. Dont read into what is said, it is just that FLY DOWN THE RUNWAY
I'm a 747-400 Captain, I've been flying for 35 years, have 18,000 hours and have flown about 40 types of A/C ranging from Super Cubs to Jumbos. 500 ft grass strips to 15,000 ft runways all over the world, in very challenging environments and approach/arrivals including warzones. I've NEVER been to Oshkosh and honestly, have never had the desire to go. After watching your video (thanks for sharing) I'm more certain than ever that IF I ever go, I won't be flying in. That whole process is INSANE and is an accident waiting to happen.
I am 70 yrs old now, But I have a story for you. In 1976 me and my cousin ( He was doing the flying ) flew into Oskosk in a 172 back then you would come in from Omro, Wi and circle the gravel pit on the north side of the east runway which we did without any problems. As we were coming down on final and faster airplanes were crowding up around us. When the tower called brown and white Cessna land short we had a BUNCH of other aircraft all around us some above some below and others on both sides. My cousin said he was going to go around but I could see a set of retractable gear just feet above us and told him to get the airplane on the ground as quick as possible because we had one just above us and desending. Long story short, When we touched down, All short, The other aircraft landing all around us scattered like a bunch of cockroaches. I counted 19 other aircraft scurrying ahead, Some going off runway at 45 degree angles and every other way you can imagine. All without a single pileup. The one thing that still stands out in my mind was the long silence from the tower. We haven't flown in to Oshkosh since !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By the way my cousin Larry Coffelt WENT WEST on December 2nd 83 yrs old. Really miss him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it would be less confusing if the tower more explicitly mentioned when a communication is meant to repeal a previous command and replace it with a new one rather than merely supplement it. The tonr of voice of the tower really sounded like you were being "corrected" because you were doing it "wrong" when you were landing on the yellow mark. That can add a few seconds of unnecessary confusion at a critical moment. The tower explicitly saying that it's aware of the contradiction and has changed it's mind would help make the pilot more quickly shift mental gears. Even just the insertion of one word, the word "instead", would communicate all of that. "Fly down the runway, *instead*.". It tells the pilot, "No you're not imagining the incompatible nature of the instruction. Don't worry, we know it contradicts. Disregard the old instruction."
Perhaps the officer in tower in not that experienced? Normally they are trained to do it exactly the way you mention it, the tower is the last concern any pilot should ever experience.
@@mafketeltje1988 this. My first thought was that the tower messed up. "wow, that's a heck of a confusing set of instructions being given. I was expecting this video to be an echo of FlightChops v critical discussion."
@@mafketeltje1988 I'm glad to hear that's normally how it's done. It's unjust for the tower to blame the pilot when the tower instructions *must be* disobeyed because they fundamentally contradict each other. Even if the rule is "the most recent one takes precedence" that still puts pilots in the position of having to second-guess themselves wondering if the contradiction is because the tower is changing it or if it's a fake contradiction caused by the pilot misunderstanding something. "Do they contradict because I misunderstood the first instruction or was it because I misunderstood the second instruction or was it because the people in the tower changed their minds? Which is it? I have two seconds to decide..."
The opening of the vid I was thinking ATC was really harshing that guy, but was super chill... then you showed it from in the cockpit as you were landing and my pulse is still racing. Stay safe my man!
Man, you make such a great point. With all the air traffic at AirVenture, every pilot needs to be even more aware and practice like you said, “military style flying”. No problem for me, I drove to Oshkosh.
Having flown Aussie Light sport/ultralights we used to practise flying down the runway at a fixed height. It really helped with improving landings and safety as you can have a kangaroo or other animal enter the landing area at speed and being able to adjust your flight path and nail a height really helps in this regard. The wobble displayed by the pilot in this video reminds me of GA trained pilots during their conversion to much lighter LSA types.
“Military style”- is all ive ever really done (navy trained) and i can totally understand if youre used to a standard downwind, base, and final that doing our typical downwind to final (in 1 turn) could be difficult. I fly helos now and we still do it this way. Once youre used to 2 turns for the whole pattern its the only way to do it!
Crazy. Throwing a non-standard, potentially confusing order at you right at the most critical moment, with no warning or preparation. If a Human Factors expert got together with a Duty of Care lawyer, those tower guys would get eaten alive. Thanks for posting.
Happens every year. ATC knows they're dealing with a mixture of pilots who deal with this type of airspace, daily, and those who usually deal with an uncontrolled field, with one, or two arrivals per day. The NOTAM is a big help. It needs to be studied. ATC is prepared for anything. They expect all pilots to be alert, and prepared for anything as well. However, the controller didn't explain why he needed Mike to continue flying down the runway. Which is why I believe the controller was an EAA Rookie. His first year as an ATC for the week.
Oshkosh ATC has a whole different set of rules. Standard doesn't apply. They have to. This is a very dynamic environment with 10,000 pilots over 10 days and many more movements on top of that. They need this kind of instant instruction. Any ATC can override any previous instruction and in this case, kept the two planes separated. Kudos.
Glad you included the towers instruction to you to “keep flying down the runway” it was a surprise to you and me too. Interesting instruction, everybody who flys needs to see and hear this. Great posting.
I’m a CFII and have flown into Oshkosh about 10 times. So, whenever I do a Flight Review, I have the pilot show me spot landings. When hitting a particular spot on the runway, you have to know far more than what is needed for just a successful landing, and it takes practice. I also switch the touchdown spot in short final and teach how to add partial power or introduce a slip to change the glide to a new touchdown point. That sort of practice helps a lot at Oshkosh.
@@yourMom-ic4wr sure, why not? You can slip an airplane with flaps down. True, requires careful speed awareness. I used to slip old 172's, that had the 40* flaps, just gotta really have that nose down cause youre sinking, fast. It's a really useful tool to have in your bag of tricks.
I learned in gliders , you get one chance and one chance only . Restricted landing in a hang glider is an area about the size of a tennis court with vertical obstructions .. The tower sounds like they are the problem , not the pilots .
Agree, while I have never flown to Oshkosh, I have flown to other busy Airshow and my training to put the wheels down exactly where you want is a very useful skill to have.
The plane has limitations and the pilot has limitations.. do not exceed either.. Oshkosh is a perfect example where both happen regularly.. thus the accidents. These controllers are assuming a certain skill level of each pilot and frankly that’s unreasonable. The safest scenario would be a briefing that said the pilot could initiate a go around if at any part of the approach he became uncomfortable with the landing profile. Secondly the controllers should not change the landing scenario in mid stream. If you are assigned the yellow dot and can’t make it happen you go around.. or the traffic behind you does. This is a stupid mess which puts too much pressure on unskilled , rusty pilots that can’t make certain things happen and should not be asked to do so. IMHO.
Agree completely/ I also believe often the controllers aren’t used to controlling that many small aircraft and believe their primary goal is to get the planes on the ground ASAP. They need to space the planes better and take the pressure off themselves and the pilots. Getting on the ground safely even if a few minutes later should be the goal. 3 years ago I flew a 182 on amphibs into sun n fun. Same deal. The controller was rushing the the calls and the guy I was following got completely confused. The controller called me and gave me the long runway (which wasn’t in use at the time for smaller aircraft ) “until she could straighten this guy out!” She barked. I am sure that tone did nothing to settle the other pilot. As I was 100 feet from touch down she demands I “land long” - no prob Iam used to slow flight so I flew to the very end of ry 9 sitting down on the 500’ mark. “That’s far enough!” She yelled . Me, “ roger, thought you said land long”. They need to be calm clear and specific otherwise surprised. At Oshkosh I go to the seaplane base and stay away from that hot mess. 😜
A go around is always an option, but better spacing should be a priority. If the controller told the second (faster) plane to go around, that pilot will add power and pickup more speed to climb. This could put their plane flying directly over the slower one ahead. Then, what if that front plane has an issue and initiates a go-around? There just has to be enough space where nobody has to worry about some faster plane trying to fly up the rear end of a plane that’s already landing.
@@lukeolson2382 agree but the question is why doesn’t that happen specifically at Oshkosh? I think there are several factors at play. 1. A lot of airplanes in a small airspace at the same time putting undo pressure on controllers and pilots to make it happen (land and get off the ry) 2. Peer pressure: pilots are often landing with the biggest audience they’ve ever had and don’t want to “fail” the landing and there may be other problems lots on board they want to show they “can make it work” 3. The knowledge that a go around may just set you up for more of the same- now you gotta fly out and figure out how to get back in line when the line starts 15 miles from the airport. Obviously none of these are good reasons for forcing a landing going bad but certainly play a role in the poor decision making.
I saw this landing on that 7 hour Oshkosh video. That's an awkward place in the landing sequence to be told to extend. That airplane was ready to stop flying. My heart would have been pounding for sure! You handled it!
fr. like i get it, its a super busy time theyre doing dangerous stuff all the time at oshkosh, but that was so scuffed. controller shouldve accepted his mistake of telling him to land sooner and told the other plane to go around... not tell a plane thats literally ready to stall onto the runway to suddenly extend to fill his own ego.
@@thane5665 im almost certain he wouldve heard that alarm blaring over the mic while telling him to extend atc def seemed to be a bit of a dumbass in this situation
he could have lost his airplane because of that stupid ATC controller, FAA should set some rules to stop this silly mess from keep happening, people shouldn't have to loose their planes because some idiot desided to squeeze everyone in on one runway all at the same time.
That made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. You did a great job dealing with poor ATC communication. Any non standard communication should have been explained better. He made it sound like you were doing something wrong, which you were not. This added to the confusion. It would have been much better to say “RV extend final to the next dot. Traffic behind.”
@Karl Weidhass, "poor ATC communication"? Controllers at Osh are some of the best in the world, they have to be to handle that kind of traffic. If you go to an auction and think that the professional auctioneer is speaking too fast and not enunciating clearly enough, maybe you should refrain from bidding. Osh, Sun-n-fun are not for novice pilots or those who haven't done their homework. The weirdest thing is fighting the urge to reply to the controllers.
@@toddsmith8608 They may be "some of the best in the world," but from the outside, they look like they either aren't good at their job, or that they might be good and either don't pay enough attention or give enough care while on the job. Never mind that their instructions are recorded. They are setting either EAA or Wittman or both up for a lawsuit which they will lose due to the confusing and even contradictory nature of their instructions.
@@toddsmith8608 and they're probably the ones that matter the most, because the simple fact is that the overwhelming majority of people are looking at this from the outside, and unless and until that perception changes, OSH will always be thought as a death trap with inattentive or chronically unskilled controllers, and that's what matters in a lawsuit.
@@PhycoKrusk so what's the solution? Shut down Osh and S&F? Restrict inbound/ outbound traffic to normal flow so that only a few hundred aircraft are allowed? Try and educate people who post videos attempting to blame controllers for their "unsafe practices?"
We can clearly see the tower is under stress. Getting bumped by a faster plane happens. Then you go back into the pattern. In this case, the tower appears to be forcing several pilots into a difficult position and ridiculing them as they follow the instructions. . Mike is correct to say "Go back to flying your plane". As as far as the guy in the tower goes, Find another job!
Have either of you ever had to land dozens (if not a hundreds) aircraft per hour? The sheer volume of traffic at AirVenture requires this kind of operation. In normal circumstances, yeah, you'd be bumped and go around, but they don't have room in the pattern for that in this case.
I’m dying to know how you’d develop the VFR approach, pattern entry and landing procedures for OSH to handle hundreds of aircraft per hour and still have several landing on the same runway at a time to get everyone in without others running out of fuel in holding. Better yet, the FAA is hiring controllers. By all means, apply and volunteer for oshkosh once certified. I think it would be a humbling experience for you considering he did the RV a favor by not being sent back around in the pattern.
As unpopular as this might seem, ATC did the right thing. They have a special FAA cert for this week and dots on the runway for spacing and simultaneous landings. The faster plane behind him was the correct call from ATC. It is not your regular ATC and things happen in the moment. These controllers are the best of the best because of the 10,000 pilots in 10 days.
If anyone wants to know what WWII air traffic control was like, then I think this is it! With all the aircraft flying into Oshkosh, you would think that they would maybe do more reviews of the landing procedures. Great flying.
I used to fly in to Oshkosh with my dad and we were the ones in the v-tail bonanza and alway seemed to be following a stream of Cessna’s. My dad “the pilot “ finally gave up the stress of flying in and we would drive.
With streamflow on your wing you can reduce stall and landing speed by approx 15knots, they claim....hope you and your dad will be back in the air soon again!
This was my first year flying in, and I went out with a CFI who goes to Oshkosh all the time and practiced last-minute changes to landing instructions. This is good info.
It has been decades, but I remember training up on hectic "over instruction" lands around 20 to 25 hours. Oshkosh is just absolutely crazy. Nice job on your landing! Really good work.
2:51 is all my AF pilots do. Doesn’t matter if it’s the C17 or C130 that short final base turn defines you. They also crush mid field overhead patterns at 250 knots with 60 degrees of bank at 2Gs, configuring on speed. You did great. Controller wasn’t too helpful with his non standard terminology and he didn’t do you any favors. Anyone I’ve ever flown with would have called a Go around and left the airspace especially since this isn’t Iraq or Afghanistan
@@thebigmon Empty wastelands do not host 3 Olympic games, winning 170 Olympic gold medals, and have the second largest economy in the Southern Hemisphere. Do they? Which hell hole do you live in Mon?
I watched a lot of the "Oshkosh Landings" video and I saw your situation. It's very easy to"judge" from the cheap seats on the ground. HOWEVER. ..being in YOUR seat... what a different prospective! Already on edge because of the pressure and set up and ready to do it... stall horns beeping at you..."then you hear "Hey... before you do that... let's change up the plan... keep it in the air a while...THEN touchdown"! I think... seeing it from YOUR prospective... you did great! I see how those last second instructions could have caused an accident. Nice work! Thanks for sharing YOUR perspective with us!
I think that ATC were incorrect to issue you that instruction at that late stage. They might have been better to get the bonanza to taxi right after landing. Let you land then taxi left. An instruction at 100 feet for a GA pilot is just dangerous
At Oshkosh, ATC is not incorrect. They have special FAA issue for that week to allow multiple planes to land simultaneously, hence the dots. In this case, if they didn't say something, that faster plane behind him would have ended in a potential crash. We need to stay alert when at Oshkosh because of the congestion. I am sure ATC didn't think that plane would be so fast on final. The dots are there for a reason. But he handled it well, just like an immediate go-around happens to us all.
@@ForderLearnToFly I think you're misunderstanding the point - it's not that 'land on the spot' is wrong. It's that it's unreasonable and unsafe to change the landing clearance (the spot they actually want to you land on) while the pilot is in the process of landing at the original spot. They should be ahead of issues like that.
It didn't even sound like they were changing the instruction but scolding him for apparently doing something wrong. Correct voice instruction could have been "disregard yellow dot landing, XXXXX land end of runway long. Bonanza behind you."
It shouldn't at all be dangerous and that's the elephant in the room as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who's been granted a private pilots license should be able to negotiate a change from ATC as long as that change is reasonable to the aircraft and conditions being flown. ATC can't tell a Gulfstream that just landed to take the next non-high speed exit if the pilot doesn't have adequate room to stop. But if you're flying a Cessna 206 and you're in the flare, flaps down, throttle at idle and you're 4 ft. above the pavement before touchdown and tower tells you to go around... IMMEDIATELY you should execute --basic pilot skills-- and apply full power/retract the flaps and simply do what tower tells you to do. It's just too easy to (1) fly the aircraft (2) follow the instructions given to the extent that they make sense based on pilot/aircraft type capabilities. The problem is that people are getting licenses without being trained to actually fly the aircraft in various real-world situations such as baulked landings with a side-step to the left or right of the runway, before climb-out, etc.. which is a real-world scenario if a plane/vehicle/ or squadron of pelicans cross the active runway when they shouldn't have. Pilots need to get back to flying the plane.
My experience is from the 80’s and one advice I got (for a c-172) was to drop 20 degrees flaps (Vice 40) on final in case you need to extend. The runway is plenty long. I ended up not having to extend so no problem. Back then there was no colored dots. Good experience.
First it's them referring to his Sling as RV can be confusing. Then it's super stressful to get last minute change when already cleared. Then tone of air traffic. Thank you for sharing I think the controller will see this and get a better understanding of his own skillset and how to improve.
I have a passion for flying that I've had since I was a kid. I used to religiously read 'kit plane' magazine (does that even still exist?). The thing is, in college, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, so I am not eligible for a pilots license. I really appreciate pieces like this one that you did as it gives me a really interesting insight into what it's like to learn to fly without needing to get into an aircraft.
Hectic to another level. After being cleared to land, tower ordered me to perform a 360, but although flying over water, (Pax River Maryland) however I was still at 300 ft, but on your case you were about to touch down. You stayed calm and flew it as the professional you are, awesome. Safe flying, thanks for sharing.
Never been to Oshkosh but am a high time pilot. It seems that pilots should be prepared and have trained before arriving to suddenly and unexpectedly comply with an instruction to remain airborne and continue to touch down at the next spot along the runway. That would necessitate applying some power to increase speed a little above the stall for as long as needed to reach the further touchdown spot. In this clip it sounded like the stall warner continued to beep for a while, suggesting that the pilot didn't apply enough power, perhaps due to being surprised by the intense voice repeating the same instruction over and over. It certainly would have startled me!
Not a real life pilot and hardly going to pretend that a lifetime of Microsoft flight simulator counts as the same thing. But I'd expect one of the dangers presented by this situation would be overcorrecting when someone tells you at the last possible moment to do something different. Like, I could see someone responding to the ATC's anxious yelling by firewalling the throttle so that he's left trying to land with too much power on shorter stretch of runway than originally planned.
I've flown to Oshkosh a number of times. I have three piloting skills that I recommend to every pilot that asks about skills for landing at Oshkosh: slipping turn downwind to final, keeping the plane in ground effect after a change to your landing point, and nailing your landing spot every single time. If you can't do those things, you shouldn't fly into Oshkosh. This isn't military-style flying, it's being highly proficient, and you aren't going to be highly proficient if you're only getting a couple dozen landings per year with 1-mile finals.
@@MikeBohlmann Spot on Mike, I really think this is a poor video and an example of a pilot who should not be flying to Oshkosh. He is making excuses for his poor airmanship and his attitude is not very good in my opinion as well.
I wouldn’t even know what they wanted with the “fly it down the runway” instruction. I think I would think they are looking for a go around - not land further down. IMO they need to work on more meaningful instructions. Even just saying “land at red dot instead” or whatever would be more useful in the heat of the moment.
Exactly. "Fly it down the runway" , or "traffic behind", or "extend", or "do not descend" or whatever are useless as instructions because while they tell you what not to do they give the pilot zero information on what they need to do next and lack the additional information on how far. i.e. "fly down" how far? No idea. "traffic behind" yeah, but how close and do you still want me to land or not? "do not descend" so is that a go around, or not descend for 1000 ft I don't know, you've got a view of the situation when I don't, why are you giving me half a picture with no idea on what to do next. Make it stupid simple and hard to mess up, make it either: "go around" - and I've got a formal missed approach procedure drilled into my mind - or "red dot" (or whatever colour is next or two further down), possibly with an "expedite" added. And "fly it down the runway" is infuriatingly long non-standard vocabulary. "red dot" might be non-standard technically, but it's a physical object right in front of the pilot with only two syllables, and "expedite" is super clear as well and carries with it the connotation of a conflict. And the nice thing is that "red dot" gives ATC a clear signal on where exactly they the plane to go without needing any follow up or other mental overhead.
I'm a Pilot in training and know that when you're taught how to land and then they change the landing position would stress anyone out specifically when you have tell you how to fly the plane you yourself have control of. I've had my instructor tell me to do 1 thing then change to another, but put it down as if she is trying see what I would do under a little pressure, I love my instructor and wouldn't change a thing.
Especially when the tower failed to admit their previous instruction was wrong and is being changed. The poor pilot was trying to understand how to obey both contradictory instructions, one to land on the yellow AND one to fly further down the runway. The tower is supposed to explicitly tell the pilot when they are meant to disregard a previous instruction so the pilot isn't having to guess whether they misunderstood. The danger of a rule that says, "if they contradict then just stop following the previous instruction" is that it's possible to misunderstand or mishear the newer instruction so maybe it wasn't meant to repeal the older one but you misheard it and thought it did and start disregarding an instruction you were supposed to keep following.
As a 74 y.o current pilot of 49 years flying a Meridian for the last 21 years I could not agree more. I practice these procedures all the time. Thank You
I landed at Oshkosh about 30 years ago. They were using 2 runways to land 3 planes at a time (landing long or short on the longest runway.). No dots painted on the runways. First (and last) time I ever saw 3 planes land at the same time on 2 runways. Really required a lot of concentration and communication.
Did the same in the early 1980’s. I remember just following air traffic and how long that 36L runway is. Lucky both time I was asked to land on the numbers. With my plane we were off before the first hash marks. Best flying/camping events of my life. Airplanes from the time we woke up till we went to sleep. I do remember how humid it was in the afternoons.
Good points Mike! I highly recommend everyone practice three things before going. 1. Power settings for 90 kts 2. Last minute fly down the runway assignment 3. Tight left and right patterns. Landing on rwy 27 can be tricky, tight pattern and then throw it to the right and it gets pretty sketchy over there.
You are right on the mark. I have seen many pilots get excited about going to fly ins well above their skill level. You really have to be as good as you think you are before you show up at Oshkosh or Sun & Fun. Often pilots with deep pockets buy planes above their skill level and try to show off by going to events they are not ready for.
I saw the air’s how stuff vid literally yesterday and puckered up in suspicion that it was you mojo, I’m so glad everything is ok, I knew your plane was in the verge of stalling by the high angle of attack while going down the runway
Hello Sir, I am not a pilot. I did fly into Oshkosh as a passenger in 1995. We were in a Skymaster fully loaded with four onboard an camping gear. As I recall 80 mph was difficult as we were mushing through the air . On final approach we were instructed to switch to the parallel taxi way and my pilot stayed on course because of induced drag . He didn’t want to stall it. Lucking a nimble little Dragonfly that was directly in front of us easily switched to the taxiway to land , the Tower thanked that pilot and we proceeded to land with no problem and had the time of our lives for the next week. It was AWESOME!
I was taught that tower must leave a pilot in short final alone until after touchdown unless there's imminent danger. He should have instructed the bonanza to abort. The lowest plane has priority. This is how accidents happen.
I felt the same way about osh, I was worried about it for the weeks leading up but then everything went really well until I touched down (in front of 30k ppl right before the afternoon show). As I touched down, atc yelled at me to get off the runway right away cuz there was a warbird coming in hot behind me. Almost hit a light/cone trying to get onto the grass at 50kts in an Archer... My takeaway was that I need to fly the plane all the way to the campsite -- just cuz you're on the ground doesn't mean you're done -- which was certainly not something I anticipated. All in all our was a great weekend tho!
Someone has probably already said this, but if you don't feel comfortable about your landing situation, GO AROUND. It might be nice to know your landing distance limit vs how much runway you have in front of you. Study the runways before you get there. Good video.
The guy in the right seat who was watching your airspeed is a true friend. Maybe one more thing for fixed wing pilots to practice would be a go-around from the landing flare. You did great.
Been watching your videos for a while now. This is one of your best. Learned something new for sure. And, I have no doubt you've just helped a lot of pilots new to Oshkosh.
This reminds of something that I used to see in a totally unrelated subject. Our local cycling club has a range of members that each have different capabilities. Some are 23-25+mph riders while others are barely making 12mph. These are people that ride in a group that gets stretched out a few miles by the time they complete their scheduled weekly ride. On the weekends, especially when there is a big televised international race like the Tour De France, these amateur riders who only occasionally ride together try to emulate their professional racing idols by forming drafting lines and a rag tag peloton. They bunch up, the front wheel of one bike nipping at the rear wheel of the bike ahead of them. They think that because they see the pros do it, that they can do it. Every time they do this, we hear of a terrible accident that results in at least two damaged bikes and moderate injuries. The point of this is that at Oshkosh and Fun-n-Sun, and other fly-ins like it, there are many more aircraft in the air space than both the pilots in command are accustomed to and sometimes more planes than the controllers are used to. Situational awareness is an issue for both the PICs and ATCs. In such situations, someone has to be in command. While the PIC is responsible for flying his or her aircraft, and doing so safely and executing the commands of ATC, it is ultimately the responsibility of ATC to control the air space. Their pre-event risk assessments and analysis should include the reality that pilots unfamiliar with the area and unfamiliar with flying in such traffic density are going to be inbound and outbound and overwhelmed. This should change the airspace intervals normally assigned to traffic. Increasing the traffic spacing will give both pilot and controller a little more time. 10-15 seconds can save lives. Just my two cents.
Jeffissimo, they've been doing this for decades, I'm sure they discuss everything you mentioned. Nothing is "standard" about osh & SnF procedures. The more they space things out the fewer aircraft make it in. Make it really safe and only a few hundred planes would be there instead of thousands. ATC does a great job, but just like your cycling friends, there's always a few pilots who overestimate their abilities, haven't done their homework, or simply aren't prepared to handle it.
I would have loved to have heard and seen your video prior to my first trip there. We had a really narrow escape and I haven't been back and what's more I won't be going back.
Looks to me like you did a great job. You flew it the best way you could and followed instructions nicely, he changed his mind, you did the best you could and executed. Nice job under a stressful situation, thanks for the content.
As a taildragger pilot, if I heard the non-standard phrase "fly it down the runway" I would assume that it meant "Fly it down *onto* the runway" and thus I was being asked to do a wheelie landing rather than a 3-pointer.
I would just tell the tower unable and land. Sorry but changing a landing clearance 100 ft prior to touchdown is a completely unsafe request of the tower. The FAA should look into the procedures used and give better training to the controllers.
OshKosh does seem a little wild when it comes to aviation safety. If I was a part-timer I would never attempt landing there. Seasoned knuckleheads only!😂
Absolutely correct! You have to know everything your aircraft can do! The worst thing that can happen is to be in front of or behind someone that doesn’t and you need to know how to handle the plane to compensate for a part time pilot! I hope new bees watch this and learn everything that pertains to getting safely to osh! Good job!
Wow. I'm a VFR pilot and yeah!! That was ridiculous. Thank you for posting this. Never been to Oshkosh and honestly never wanted to, but that right there I've never heard anyone talk about before.. I will just stick to my small, okie town grass strip flying. Thanks. Lol
You are right, having flown to air venture you need to know your airplane very well and as you said a lot of practice in. BBC differ basic skills would be great. And getting all the briefings provided, you will be comfortable and have great time.
You also could practice an approach keeping you airspeed up all the way to almost touch down instead of a normal stabilized approach with a stabilized descent and speed on final and missed approaches, because when power is added in the landing configuration, you pitch trim is off and adds significant pressure on the yoke. This happened to me once when in the pattern with a large turboprop military aircraft that was doing pattern work. They turned base to final too close behind me. The tower was repeated encouraging me to keep up my speed and then to exit the runway. Kind of unexpected and the first time I had to do anything like that so it was a little stressful but I pulled it off OK.
My late grandfather used to fly into Oshkosh with the CAF. When I was young we always talked about how i was getting of age to go with him, sadly Cancer took him from us quickly. Oshkosh was one of his favorite things in thw world.
Once a plane is slowed down for landing, it is very difficult to get the plane flying again. It takes time and power to get it to change to a flying mod. Its lame for the tower to have you do that. If they had a faster plane behind you, they hadn't planed their landings and type of aircraft properly. I would say it was their fault.
@@jessetrott2549 It doesn mean much. In the U.S. A.T.C. clear airplanes to land even if the runway is occupied. Happen everyday at all U.S. airports. It means clear to land IF the traffic currently blocking the runway will get out before you land. It means also you just number 1 for the landing, nothin else.
@@12345fowler you are absolutely wrong about this. cleared to land is a legal statement from ATC that you own that entire runway and you may use it as such to land. I hold a pilot's certificate in the USA. ATC will very very rarely clear you to land on a runway with an incursion present. It would not be legal. That said I've of course seen it happen when a plane is departing the active and is almost off, or you are behind another aircraft but there will be pother instructions with that transmission such as cleared to land #2 behind, or LAHS or something. this isn't up for interpretation.
@@jessetrott2549 This may be your experience, and it isn’t wrong if that’s what you’ve witnessed. I’m not trying to make a dig at you. It just sounds like you haven’t flown at very many busy class C or class B airports. “Cleared to land” is an instruction given all the time even when you may have an aircraft or two in front of you while on approach. Anything can happen during this phase of flight and you must be prepared to go around regardless of whether you were cleared to land. For example, two days ago I was on final at Pensacola and had been cleared to land. A regional jet had been cleared for takeoff in front of me as I was on final. Unfortunately the jet didn’t get its act together and start their takeoff roll in time and I had to side step and go around. Since I had been cleared to land, should I have flown right through the back of the jet causing a literal catastrophe? Of course not. I side stepped and went around per ATC’s instructions. Of course I was anticipating this, but nonetheless I wouldn’t have caused a huge crash just because two minutes before I’d been cleared to land. “Cleared to land” means cleared to land FOR NOW, unless something happens and it must be changed. ** Forgot to mention, commercial pilot here for reference.
@@VictoryAviation i don't know why my other replies aren't visible. of course you go around if a line up and wait isn't wheels up. I was based out of LA, one of the busiest airspaces in the world. I've been to plenty class B's and C's. I said in an earlier comment that if there is an incursion, you aren't going to land but otherwise, it's completely your runway however you want it. Cleared to land is a legal phrase from ATC.
I agree with you Mike, things like slow flight, short approaches and go arounds, should be practiced without all of the pressure of being at OSH at an airport you are familiar with. The controller is trying to keep a safe distance between you and the guy in front and behind, if either don't or can't keep that distance the controller will call on you to help. Your right, you must be prepared and practiced to land in a hectic environment, it seems for you that from Fisk in everyone behaved them selves, but as you know even the high time warbird pilots have had problems there. Good job and I like the message you are sending. Cheers!
Thanks for the heads up bro. I plan on flying there for the first time next Oshkosh show. And I definitely agree. There should be a procedure bulletin to practice available.
I also did the FISK approach this year. Certainly you have to do a Linda Blair with your head to keep aware. But I sympathize with you when you are on short final and almost touching down as instructed. But I do want to mention that this kind of last minute instruction from ATC is similar to a go-around. Any of us could have to do a go-around in the same scenario as you experienced. (once there was a tractor pull out on the runway as I was touching down). So we are always alert to this critical moment. Glad you handled it and shared with us.
Good video- really this kind of thing happens frequently to us general aviation pilots…..on half mile final and the tower asks you to climb and do a 360 degree turn to return to land, for instance. We always have to keep calm and fly it, read back, and execute. We should always practice the teardrop and steeper turns so we have the proper feel for our aircraft. We all probably don’t practice these moves enough. Good refresher. Thanks for the video.
Literally had to sidestep and conduct a 360 on short final a couple days ago at Pensacola because a regional jet didn’t have its crap together and took too much time starting their takeoff roll. It happens. It wasn’t a big deal. I was anticipating the go around and sidestep the entire last 30 seconds seeing as how there was a jet sitting there on the threshold and it wasn’t moving its ass 😅
@@outwiththem A crosswind doesn’t make any difference to the airplane because it’s only relative to the ground. Plus if you’re conducting any type of go around in any form, you should be applying go around power. For most GA aircraft that’s full power. Just got my helicopter add on yesterday. Even in that full power is applied, though a little differently since it’s a constant speed system.
@@VictoryAviation Not so. A strong crosswind, not corrected well can make you get off track if in cruise. and turning, can make you missaligned too. Try these maneuvers. 1-The 360 on final at 400 agl with a full 20 knot crosswind from the left. 2-360 Spot flyovers with a tailwind aligment over the spot. Do at least 3 of them. with a tailwind 20 knot tailwind alignment. Start it with a downwind/tailwind alignment to the spot to do the 360's. FAA style calls to start with a downwind/tailwind. Do 3 of them. Dont cheat. GRM is taught very mild in USA. No alignments with a tailwind are taught at all. and that is why so many GRM base to final stalls and crashes.
@@outwiththem You’re talking about ground reference maneuvers. The wind still makes absolutely no difference to the flight of the aircraft when aloft. It only makes a difference with the aircraft’s orientation to the ground. An aircraft’s performance doesn’t take any wind into consideration until it is referenced to the ground, such as maximum demonstrated crosswind component, or taking off downwind vs into the wind.
I flew into Sun-N-Fun once. I drove in the rest of the times. Just a bet overwhelming trying to keep an eye on all the other planes that are not doing exactly as they should. It is a very impressive thing to get so many planes in an out like they do.
I'm a Retired 747 Captain and have flown Twin Otters in STOL operations in Africa. I've been to Oshkosh several times, the first time was in 1976 with about 300-400 hours TT, in a C-177RG with my Mom and Dad on board (brand new Instrument rating) the flight from Grand Forks to Oshkosh was IFR/IMC, so we made the approach. The other times were all VFR and it can get crazy! Your point is important, you have to study and be familiar with the Airventure procedures. I've never had a problem with Oshkosh. It's a fun experience to fly into the event.
Dude, you are sooo right. I know I am late catching this video but there was a crash in San Diego about 3 days ago of a Lear 35. It crashed turning in on final and wound up spinning in about 1.4mi short of the runway. This type of crash is very common as well and we, the GA community need to pay attention to this type of accident.
Mike one thing you may think about is that you have different types of aircraft landing back to back on the same runway. Different speed aircrafts need different landing procedures.. Also the tower needs someone with experience to monitor whose landing at what sequence...
So the problem with sequencing is at airventure everything is visual no using radar that starts at Fisk approach where by visuals they try to sort aircraft. But you also get flights of different types that want to stay together as well. Tower at Oshkosh does a fantastic job creating order in the chaos. The biggest things to remember are 1: read and know the notam 2: just listen to atc and be ready for changes. 3: create a mental picture in your head as to what you hear and see and 4: trust atc there is 2 people watching you land in the tower cab every landing and they generally have the big picture in mind
My 1st instructor had me transition from the threshold to slow-flying most of the way down the 10K+ ft runway of a former AFB, translating left and right within the 200ft width. It helped a lot for this sort of thing.
Excellent video. I agree completely. I would, however, let ATC know my experience level if it wasn't enough and to give me a bit of room ahead and behind. Safety should always trump efficiency.
And that works in many airports in the world but unless they are slow and bored or you are asked a direct question it’s frowned upon to key up the mic. I mean if you plan to go around or there is a problem key up but most the time it’s preferred to limit keying up there is a lot going on
Paul Santos: pilots flying in/out are instructed NOT to transmit. If they did they'd just be stepping all over each other. Osh is not for beginners and one cannot expect to be coddled.
Never having ACTUALLY flown into ‘Oshkosh’..the way I see it THIS WAS ON THEM. They ALREADY KNEW that Bonanza was following you, they could have told you PRIOR to “fly further down the runway”..instead of hammering you MG. My .02… great job brother.
"Expectation bias" is the mindset where one makes a decision or takes an action based on what that person "expects" to take place as opposed to making a decision or taking an action to the situation as it actually is. Going into Oshkosh you studied all the procedures and prepared. All of that is GOOD! Remember; "proper prior preparation prevents pitifully poor performance". You were given some colored "dot" to land on and were set up to do just that. But the Tower changed the plan. Now you do not have any prior preparation to fall back on and you have to revert to basic airmanship and flying skills-yeah pilots have to do "pilot stuff". Good for you taking your fine airplane out to broaden your PIC experience and building up your confidence. Nice video!
Watched a lot as many of you did of the Oshkosh Air Venture landings and live tower communication. There was a significant number of landings as directed by the tower well beyond the dotted line. It was communicated to the pilot about faster aircraft following . I can understand it being a good bit nerving last second orders from the tower.
This is a very important video. I quit flying in to Osh Kosh 3 years ago because it is NOT safe. You are right, its hard to know what to expect at Osh Kosh because ATC is authorizing non standard approaches which are dangerous, and packing so many airplanes in the pattern that a single mistake by one pilot has the potential to cause an incident with surrounding aircraft. I made this point recently to Dan Millican, who is good buddies with Jack Pelton, CEO of AirVenture. Dan is an aviation RUclipsr who makes videos about air safety, and at the same time is a big proponent of EAA's AirVenture. This is a big contradiction to me, so I wrote Dan the following: (Tell me what you think): Dan, your reply is a great example of confirmation bias. Blaming the 19 human beings killed in fatal crashes at EAA (over the past 20 years) of "breaking the rules and doing stupid stuff" is a really heartless way of deflecting liability from EAA and FAA, and shifting 100% of the blame to the victims. EAA AIRSPACE IS OVERCROWDED It's easier to blame the dead guy, but remember all of these fatalities flew into an airspace intentionally overcrowded by ATC, (a fact generally ignored during accident investigations). So overcrowded, aircraft are landing on taxiways, multiple aircraft are landing on the same runway at the same time, and near misses are a daily occurrence. Mass arrivals are also allowed-30 weekend warrior pilots flying experimental airplanes (in formation) land at Wittman, causing dozens of other inbound private pilots, some inexperienced, to fly holding patterns without proper spacing and in overcrowded airspace. Does that promote safety? No it doesn't. OVERCROWDED AIRSPACE + NON STANDARD APPROACHES ARE KILLING PILOTS & PASSENGERS If these crashes concerned EAA enough to perform a root cause analysis, they would find that overcrowded airspace and non-standard approaches contribute more to the cause of these accidents than pilots doing "stupid stuff". In most cases, ATC put pilots in bad situations that exceed their skills. Controllers telling pilots when to turn to final, or to steepen their turn, or to speed up, or to slow down, only make matters worse. A pilot's first instinct is to comply w/ATC, and pilots who did so while being low and slow ended up on the ground, in a ball of flames, because they weren't experienced enough to say "unable". EAA's EFFORTS TO GROW REVENUE EXACERBATES OVERCROWDING & IGNORES SAFETY Why is the airspace overcrowded? Because EAA wants more people and airplanes to attend, and more revenue from the show. The EAA and its proponents claim a fatality each year is 'acceptable' when compared to the thousands of successful flights in and out of Wittman Field during AirVenture. Is a dead pilot per annum acceptable? EAA trying to grow the event beyond the capacity of the airspace, and the FAA's mysterious waiver that enable controllers to cut corners, ignore federal aviation regulations, and allow "non-standard" approaches and departures are responsible for dead pilots. STATISTICS Jack Pelton, CEO of Air Venture, said "in 2023, we had 677,000 attendees at AirVenture, and in 2024, attendance grew to 686,000." He continued, "At Wittman alone, there were 16,780 aircraft operations in the 11-day period from July 18-28, which is an average of approximately 113 takeoffs/landings per hour when the airport is open." For comparison, JFK handled 481,126 aircraft in 2023, (equivalent to 40,093 aircraft movements/month, 1336/day,) or 56 aircraft movements per hour. There are twice as many aircraft moving in and out of Wittman Field than JFK, but at Wittman, air traffic does not have to meet the same strict FAA regulations. (No orange dots at JFK...) Now the SOLUTION: Enforce the law. Its that simple. During EAA, Wittman Field should be treated as a class B airspace, just as LAX or JFK. That will reduce the number of aircraft that can be handled during the 'fly-in', however, stopping the overcrowding and non-standard arrivals will result in a safe experience for all attendees. During the airshow part of the event, airspace should be closed and under the authority of an airboss. The Reno Air Races were cancelled due to safety issues. Don't let this happen to EAA Airventure. I support the event as long as it is a safe event. As long as Jack Pelton and EAA maintain the status quo, don't be surprised if you see families who lost loved ones file lawsuits against EAA, and don't be surprised if the House and Senate Transportation and Aviation Subcommittees call hearings to 1) investigate why airspace is being intentionally overcrowded at WIttman Field during OshKosh, and 2) why the FAA is not enforcing federal law during the event. Slowing things down and doing things right is the best path forward. Cutting corners and blaming dead people will be the end of OshKosh.
love it at my field when the controller typically puts me in the right downwind, and then calls my base, "cleared straight to the numbers for runway 32, #2 behind the Cessna", and she knows I will do it quickly, and that way she can fit my RV in between the trainers on the left circuit timed exactly when she wants. "Late clearance to land; thanks for the help again." Really cool doing approaches like that, and great practice managing speed in an RV.
I think you were very gracious with your comments about the tower. If there is one thing competent pilots are known for, is that they stay calm when dealing with a problem. The tower not only failed to sound calm, not only failed to give you more useful information, they seemed to be giving conflicting instructions (maybe I'm just too inexperienced, but I heard "fly down the runway", "put it down" and "add power"). You would think the Oshkosh organizers would emplace extra procedures for the special environment Oshkosh presents and only staff the tower with top-tier controllers.
I think how much you flair before a landing becomes a big factor here. Some like flying to the dots others flair to a crawl and touch down. Difficult to just speed up and fly at last moment when sticking the landing. Wider spacing for all is the only safe solution in my opinion.
@@jessetrott2549 Sorry I was not trying to offend. I was trying to say no pilot did wrong. Different styles we grow accustomed to. My approach would have been exactly as RV. I am cleared and making my approach to the designated dot, then instructions change because of spacing which forces me to amend my procedure. This is not a normal everyday occurrence which opens up opportunity for error. Spacing I feel caused this situation.
I happened to watch the video on Air Show Stuff and saw your landing. It was clear from the video angle had you not followed the controller's instruction there would have been a crash. So Good Job Ace. 👍
When a pilot exceeds the capability, proficiency or preparation - you have a failure or crash. It is not a typical environment and as a pilot we have to expect those last second changes. It's intense! You did well and a great recap. But as a pilot - we have to expect a last second change or plans.
Seems like they could make instructions clearer, especially with multi-aircraft simultaneous landings. Another common instruction is "Aim for the yellow dot, land on the green" but many pilots only hear aim for the yellow and then check out so it goes both ways. In your case you had traffic and they could have indicated that much more clearly but apparently they were getting quite nervous as well.
Did it twice. It was nuts! "Blue Cessna ... LAND ON THE DOT!. . . Red Piper ....... Land long... Bonanza, exit the runaway... WHOA! But those guys in the tower were GREAT!
The video seems to paint a picture that the RV pilot wasn’t doing as requested. But as a pilot, I know that you were slowed to landing speed then asked to fly down the runway. You don’t just poor the coals to it and hope to slow down again. It’s a balancing act and the pilot did a good job of keeping things safe. Maybe a little slow but too fast could have had consequences. Great job under that stress.
Pretty much SOP at OSH. As tough as it seems it was worse in the old days. Knowing how to slip to kill excess speed and altitude is a real plus. All the rules and procedures at OSH are written in blood.
I'm fairly sure the EAA website does recommend practicing the things you talked about in the video. If you are not proficient in them, I'd recommend not going. I too did my first ever OSH trip this year and was the second to last to land on 36 on Saturday evening. I got to do it again a few days later when I flew my plane to Iowa to avoid the Derecho. For me the most stressful part was trying to get in sequence at the first reporting point. It was crazy busy there.
Not only that, but the OSH NOTAM itself describes the types of landing maneuvers that my be required. It shouldn't be a mystery. Bring your A game or don't fly in.
Letting three members of a team land together on a runway is enough of a risk but instructing 3 strangers with different aircraft, who may have not been at that airport before, is worrying. Also, telling people to make tight turns without them having experience, is just EAA risking a bellow minimum manoeuvring velocity stall accident.
This will test you for sure. In training my instructor and I were landing on a 10,000' runway and I was instructed by the tower to speed up and land as far down the runway as possible due to following high speed traffic. My instructor took over and sort of flew the aircraft about 5' off the ground all the way to the intersecting runway and did a perfect sort of chandelle onto the intersecting runway and landed. The tower called back and said "Thanks Gord" knowing right well that that was not me flying. We later called that a "Hover Taxi". I will never forget it.
Hi Mike, excellent insight! After reading some of the other comments, my PPL check-ride came to memory. My DPE was in a hurry to get to another scheduled check ride and saw the examinee as we were on a stabilized short final to 04 R at MDW and he ordered me to expedite the landing and taxi to the south ramp. I executed the expedite poorly and almost didn’t pass the check-ride. First check-rides for your PPL are stressful, executing them in busy Class C airspace under the Class B of ORD adds a level of greater complexity. Landing at Oshkosh during AirVenture for your first time with unfamiliar procedures with compressed traffic would have to be even more stressful than my check-ride with a SWA 737 on final behind me and a DPE ordering me to expedite for his next check-ride. At least I had normal separation from ATC.
My favorite saying about landing a plane is…….WHEN YOU STOP FLING PUT IT ON THE RUNWAY. I loved your video. Here is another thought for you….SAFETY IS THOUGHT BEFORE ACTION. 😊
As someone who's never been to oshkosh, this sounds like they threw the ATC rulebook out the window with these procedures, and are handling it with blatant disregard for the safety culture aviation is known for... thanks for sharing your experience!
When I flew into OSH in '74, the procedure was to "report over the gravel pit." The gravel pit is across the street from the north side of the airport. You were basically on downwind to 27. Now you report over Fisk, about 10 miles out, or Ripon, even further out.
Always good to hear from you! You are awesome! And yes, practice landings are important… along with the ability to flow with the situation as it happens and adjust accordingly which is much easier said than done. I record my flights and review them later to improve … there is always room to improve. Thanks for sharing and helping other pilots be better the next time one flys. 😃👍🏻
Always remember dipweed on the mike is on the ground with a microphone...he screws up he goes home...you screw up you get a tag on your toe at the medical examiner's office. Had a strong worded go around with Osh controller in 2018.
"RV extend your touchdown past the yellow dot, landing traffic behind you" would've been a more helpful instruction. Glad you handled it Mike!
"Fly it down the runway" does the same without any more confusing info.
@@flexairz To me that's even more confusing due to the lack of context. If I'm trying to land on this runway, then "fly it down the runway" is nonsensical.... do you want me to abort this landing and come around again? What's going on here?
Seems all small low wing are Vans at Oskosh
I don’t think telling the pilot “fly it down the runway,faster plane behind you” is a good thing, it tells you why your instruction was changed. Good job !!!!!
@@taiwanjohn it just means what was said, they didnt say abort, they didnt say go around. been there twice. Dont read into what is said, it is just that FLY DOWN THE RUNWAY
I'm a 747-400 Captain, I've been flying for 35 years, have 18,000 hours and have flown about 40 types of A/C ranging from Super Cubs to Jumbos. 500 ft grass strips to 15,000 ft runways all over the world, in very challenging environments and approach/arrivals including warzones. I've NEVER been to Oshkosh and honestly, have never had the desire to go. After watching your video (thanks for sharing) I'm more certain than ever that IF I ever go, I won't be flying in. That whole process is INSANE and is an accident waiting to happen.
smart.
Accidents have happened there over the years.
1000%
If I ever go and fly (still trudging through FAA medical stuff), I'll fly somewhere nearby and rent a car. No desire to go through all this.
you have my dream job in my dream aircraft. I hope to be in your shoes one day Captain
I am 70 yrs old now, But I have a story for you. In 1976 me and my cousin ( He was doing the flying ) flew into Oskosk in a 172 back then you would come in from Omro, Wi and circle the gravel pit on the north side of the east runway which we did without any problems. As we were coming down on final and faster airplanes were crowding up around us. When the tower called brown and white Cessna land short we had a BUNCH of other aircraft all around us some above some below and others on both sides. My cousin said he was going to go around but I could see a set of retractable gear just feet above us and told him to get the airplane on the ground as quick as possible because we had one just above us and desending. Long story short, When we touched down, All short, The other aircraft landing all around us scattered like a bunch of cockroaches. I counted 19 other aircraft scurrying ahead, Some going off runway at 45 degree angles and every other way you can imagine. All without a single pileup. The one thing that still stands out in my mind was the long silence from the tower. We haven't flown in to Oshkosh since !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way my cousin Larry Coffelt WENT WEST on December 2nd 83 yrs old. Really miss him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God bless
Sheesh! Awesome story, great memories I’m sure haha!
thank you for sharing your story, sir.
That must've been crazy to experience
Ty for sharing sir
I think it would be less confusing if the tower more explicitly mentioned when a communication is meant to repeal a previous command and replace it with a new one rather than merely supplement it. The tonr of voice of the tower really sounded like you were being "corrected" because you were doing it "wrong" when you were landing on the yellow mark. That can add a few seconds of unnecessary confusion at a critical moment. The tower explicitly saying that it's aware of the contradiction and has changed it's mind would help make the pilot more quickly shift mental gears. Even just the insertion of one word, the word "instead", would communicate all of that. "Fly down the runway, *instead*.". It tells the pilot, "No you're not imagining the incompatible nature of the instruction. Don't worry, we know it contradicts. Disregard the old instruction."
Perhaps the officer in tower in not that experienced? Normally they are trained to do it exactly the way you mention it, the tower is the last concern any pilot should ever experience.
@@mafketeltje1988 this. My first thought was that the tower messed up. "wow, that's a heck of a confusing set of instructions being given. I was expecting this video to be an echo of FlightChops v critical discussion."
@@mafketeltje1988 I'm glad to hear that's normally how it's done. It's unjust for the tower to blame the pilot when the tower instructions *must be* disobeyed because they fundamentally contradict each other. Even if the rule is "the most recent one takes precedence" that still puts pilots in the position of having to second-guess themselves wondering if the contradiction is because the tower is changing it or if it's a fake contradiction caused by the pilot misunderstanding something. "Do they contradict because I misunderstood the first instruction or was it because I misunderstood the second instruction or was it because the people in the tower changed their minds? Which is it? I have two seconds to decide..."
Maybe the controller is an egotistical asshat!
I always liked it when tower (home base) said “VEK, change of plan”. . .
That is why i landed 30 miles away and drove to osh kosh
Smartest response 👌 🎯
lol. yes. smart
Fon du lac?
This is the single time when driving is safer than flying. lol
Good idea!!!!
The opening of the vid I was thinking ATC was really harshing that guy, but was super chill... then you showed it from in the cockpit as you were landing and my pulse is still racing. Stay safe my man!
Man, you make such a great point. With all the air traffic at AirVenture, every pilot needs to be even more aware and practice like you said, “military style flying”.
No problem for me, I drove to Oshkosh.
Having flown Aussie Light sport/ultralights we used to practise flying down the runway at a fixed height. It really helped with improving landings and safety as you can have a kangaroo or other animal enter the landing area at speed and being able to adjust your flight path and nail a height really helps in this regard. The wobble displayed by the pilot in this video reminds me of GA trained pilots during their conversion to much lighter LSA types.
Shit even the drive to Oshkosh can be stressful 😂
@@TomCook1993 Oh but wasn't worth the experience of being there?
“Military style”- is all ive ever really done (navy trained) and i can totally understand if youre used to a standard downwind, base, and final that doing our typical downwind to final (in 1 turn) could be difficult. I fly helos now and we still do it this way. Once youre used to 2 turns for the whole pattern its the only way to do it!
You drove I Walked lol almost died I live there
Crazy. Throwing a non-standard, potentially confusing order at you right at the most critical moment, with no warning or preparation. If a Human Factors expert got together with a Duty of Care lawyer, those tower guys would get eaten alive. Thanks for posting.
Happens every year. ATC knows they're dealing with a mixture of pilots who deal with this type of airspace, daily, and those who usually deal with an uncontrolled field, with one, or two arrivals per day. The NOTAM is a big help. It needs to be studied. ATC is prepared for anything. They expect all pilots to be alert, and prepared for anything as well.
However, the controller didn't explain why he needed Mike to continue flying down the runway. Which is why I believe the controller was an EAA Rookie. His first year as an ATC for the week.
It's standard for Oshkosh...
Its not nonstandard it happens every day at airventure
Oshkosh ATC has a whole different set of rules. Standard doesn't apply. They have to. This is a very dynamic environment with 10,000 pilots over 10 days and many more movements on top of that. They need this kind of instant instruction. Any ATC can override any previous instruction and in this case, kept the two planes separated. Kudos.
*Disregard yellow dot, land end of runway.* How long does that take to say?
Glad you included the towers instruction to you to “keep flying down the runway” it was a surprise to you and me too. Interesting instruction, everybody who flys needs to see and hear this. Great posting.
This is not uncommon at airventure, be ready.
I’m a CFII and have flown into Oshkosh about 10 times. So, whenever I do a Flight Review, I have the pilot show me spot landings. When hitting a particular spot on the runway, you have to know far more than what is needed for just a successful landing, and it takes practice. I also switch the touchdown spot in short final and teach how to add partial power or introduce a slip to change the glide to a new touchdown point. That sort of practice helps a lot at Oshkosh.
Introduce a slip with flaps in?
@@yourMom-ic4wr sure, why not? You can slip an airplane with flaps down. True, requires careful speed awareness. I used to slip old 172's, that had the 40* flaps, just gotta really have that nose down cause youre sinking, fast. It's a really useful tool to have in your bag of tricks.
I learned in gliders , you get one chance and one chance only . Restricted landing in a hang glider is an area about the size of a tennis court with vertical obstructions ..
The tower sounds like they are the problem , not the pilots .
Agree, while I have never flown to Oshkosh, I have flown to other busy Airshow and my training to put the wheels down exactly where you want is a very useful skill to have.
The plane has limitations and the pilot has limitations.. do not exceed either.. Oshkosh is a perfect example where both happen regularly.. thus the accidents. These controllers are assuming a certain skill level of each pilot and frankly that’s unreasonable. The safest scenario would be a briefing that said the pilot could initiate a go around if at any part of the approach he became uncomfortable with the landing profile. Secondly the controllers should not change the landing scenario in mid stream. If you are assigned the yellow dot and can’t make it happen you go around.. or the traffic behind you does. This is a stupid mess which puts too much pressure on unskilled , rusty pilots that can’t make certain things happen and should not be asked to do so. IMHO.
Agree completely/ I also believe often the controllers aren’t used to controlling that many small aircraft and believe their primary goal is to get the planes on the ground ASAP. They need to space the planes better and take the pressure off themselves and the pilots. Getting on the ground safely even if a few minutes later should be the goal.
3 years ago I flew a 182 on amphibs into sun n fun. Same deal. The controller was rushing the the calls and the guy I was following got completely confused. The controller called me and gave me the long runway (which wasn’t in use at the time for smaller aircraft ) “until she could straighten this guy out!” She barked. I am sure that tone did nothing to settle the other pilot. As I was 100 feet from touch down she demands I “land long” - no prob Iam used to slow flight so I flew to the very end of ry 9 sitting down on the 500’ mark. “That’s far enough!” She yelled . Me, “ roger, thought you said land long”. They need to be calm clear and specific otherwise surprised. At Oshkosh I go to the seaplane base and stay away from that hot mess. 😜
A go-around is still an option. Even at Oshkosh. Never feel like you are being forced to land.
In his situation could he say “no” and go around? At Oshkosh specifically
A go around is always an option, but better spacing should be a priority. If the controller told the second (faster) plane to go around, that pilot will add power and pickup more speed to climb. This could put their plane flying directly over the slower one ahead. Then, what if that front plane has an issue and initiates a go-around? There just has to be enough space where nobody has to worry about some faster plane trying to fly up the rear end of a plane that’s already landing.
@@lukeolson2382 agree but the question is why doesn’t that happen specifically at Oshkosh? I think there are several factors at play. 1. A lot of airplanes in a small airspace at the same time putting undo pressure on controllers and pilots to make it happen (land and get off the ry) 2. Peer pressure: pilots are often landing with the biggest audience they’ve ever had and don’t want to “fail” the landing and there may be other problems lots on board they want to show they “can make it work” 3. The knowledge that a go around may just set you up for more of the same- now you gotta fly out and figure out how to get back in line when the line starts 15 miles from the airport. Obviously none of these are good reasons for forcing a landing going bad but certainly play a role in the poor decision making.
I saw this landing on that 7 hour Oshkosh video. That's an awkward place in the landing sequence to be told to extend. That airplane was ready to stop flying. My heart would have been pounding for sure! You handled it!
fr. like i get it, its a super busy time theyre doing dangerous stuff all the time at oshkosh, but that was so scuffed. controller shouldve accepted his mistake of telling him to land sooner and told the other plane to go around... not tell a plane thats literally ready to stall onto the runway to suddenly extend to fill his own ego.
Well done!
Now,the controller has no idea when your aircraft is in stall.He,Sir,is a complete idiot and should be removed before he kills someone .
@@thane5665 im almost certain he wouldve heard that alarm blaring over the mic while telling him to extend atc def seemed to be a bit of a dumbass in this situation
he could have lost his airplane because of that stupid ATC controller, FAA should set some rules to stop this silly mess from keep happening, people shouldn't have to loose their planes because some idiot desided to squeeze everyone in on one runway all at the same time.
the correct solution would have the bonanza go around? nobody tells a dr killer to go around.
That made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. You did a great job dealing with poor ATC communication. Any non standard communication should have been explained better. He made it sound like you were doing something wrong, which you were not. This added to the confusion. It would have been much better to say “RV extend final to the next dot. Traffic behind.”
@Karl Weidhass, "poor ATC communication"? Controllers at Osh are some of the best in the world, they have to be to handle that kind of traffic. If you go to an auction and think that the professional auctioneer is speaking too fast and not enunciating clearly enough, maybe you should refrain from bidding. Osh, Sun-n-fun are not for novice pilots or those who haven't done their homework. The weirdest thing is fighting the urge to reply to the controllers.
@@toddsmith8608 They may be "some of the best in the world," but from the outside, they look like they either aren't good at their job, or that they might be good and either don't pay enough attention or give enough care while on the job. Never mind that their instructions are recorded.
They are setting either EAA or Wittman or both up for a lawsuit which they will lose due to the confusing and even contradictory nature of their instructions.
@@PhycoKrusk "from the outside..." are key words in your statement.
@@toddsmith8608 and they're probably the ones that matter the most, because the simple fact is that the overwhelming majority of people are looking at this from the outside, and unless and until that perception changes, OSH will always be thought as a death trap with inattentive or chronically unskilled controllers, and that's what matters in a lawsuit.
@@PhycoKrusk so what's the solution? Shut down Osh and S&F? Restrict inbound/ outbound traffic to normal flow so that only a few hundred aircraft are allowed? Try and educate people who post videos attempting to blame controllers for their "unsafe practices?"
We can clearly see the tower is under stress. Getting bumped by a faster plane happens. Then you go back into the pattern. In this case, the tower appears to be forcing several pilots into a difficult position and ridiculing them as they follow the instructions. . Mike is correct to say "Go back to flying your plane". As as far as the guy in the tower goes, Find another job!
Sounds like the worst airboss I've ever heard
Have either of you ever had to land dozens (if not a hundreds) aircraft per hour? The sheer volume of traffic at AirVenture requires this kind of operation. In normal circumstances, yeah, you'd be bumped and go around, but they don't have room in the pattern for that in this case.
I’m dying to know how you’d develop the VFR approach, pattern entry and landing procedures for OSH to handle hundreds of aircraft per hour and still have several landing on the same runway at a time to get everyone in without others running out of fuel in holding. Better yet, the FAA is hiring controllers. By all means, apply and volunteer for oshkosh once certified. I think it would be a humbling experience for you considering he did the RV a favor by not being sent back around in the pattern.
@@n003lbSounds to me like they need to limit the amount of people flying in... How many crashes and deaths occur annually at Oshkosh?
As unpopular as this might seem, ATC did the right thing. They have a special FAA cert for this week and dots on the runway for spacing and simultaneous landings. The faster plane behind him was the correct call from ATC. It is not your regular ATC and things happen in the moment. These controllers are the best of the best because of the 10,000 pilots in 10 days.
If anyone wants to know what WWII air traffic control was like, then I think this is it! With all the aircraft flying into Oshkosh, you would think that they would maybe do more reviews of the landing procedures. Great flying.
Exactly. OshKosh is a zoo. Literally…
Spot landing ability is mandatory…. Practice.
I used to fly in to Oshkosh with my dad and we were the ones in the v-tail bonanza and alway seemed to be following a stream of Cessna’s. My dad “the pilot “ finally gave up the stress of flying in and we would drive.
With streamflow on your wing you can reduce stall and landing speed by approx 15knots, they claim....hope you and your dad will be back in the air soon again!
I would simply not fly in when the crowd flies in. Much calmer and exciting. But if you can drive, that is good. Most of us can't take that option.
My friend his wife died at Oshkosh turning onto final. Stall/spin at low altitude. Thanks for your care for the pilots attending.
This was my first year flying in, and I went out with a CFI who goes to Oshkosh all the time and practiced last-minute changes to landing instructions. This is good info.
Bro, your co-pilot saved you. Helped you calm down and warned you on speed.
100% he panicked
It has been decades, but I remember training up on hectic "over instruction" lands around 20 to 25 hours. Oshkosh is just absolutely crazy. Nice job on your landing! Really good work.
2:51 is all my AF pilots do. Doesn’t matter if it’s the C17 or C130 that short final base turn defines you. They also crush mid field overhead patterns at 250 knots with 60 degrees of bank at 2Gs, configuring on speed. You did great. Controller wasn’t too helpful with his non standard terminology and he didn’t do you any favors. Anyone I’ve ever flown with would have called a Go around and left the airspace especially since this isn’t Iraq or Afghanistan
If you want to become the best pilot, become an Australian pilot. Qantas and RAAF pilots always knows best. 🇦🇺 🦘
@@unfilteredjamaican3478 uuch uch kuch kuch, sorry, can you repeat please? Swallowed something i guess
@@user-kc1tf7zm3bbest at what? suckin dix?
@@user-kc1tf7zm3b Well, if you spend your whole career flying around an empty uninhabited wasteland I guess nothing will ever happen to you. LOL
@@thebigmon Empty wastelands do not host 3 Olympic games, winning 170 Olympic gold medals, and have the second largest economy in the Southern Hemisphere. Do they?
Which hell hole do you live in Mon?
I watched a lot of the "Oshkosh Landings" video and I saw your situation. It's very easy to"judge" from the cheap seats on the ground. HOWEVER. ..being in YOUR seat... what a different prospective! Already on edge because of the pressure and set up and ready to do it... stall horns beeping at you..."then you hear "Hey... before you do that... let's change up the plan... keep it in the air a while...THEN touchdown"!
I think... seeing it from YOUR prospective... you did great! I see how those last second instructions could have caused an accident. Nice work! Thanks for sharing YOUR perspective with us!
I think that ATC were incorrect to issue you that instruction at that late stage. They might have been better to get the bonanza to taxi right after landing. Let you land then taxi left. An instruction at 100 feet for a GA pilot is just dangerous
go around... problem solved
At Oshkosh, ATC is not incorrect. They have special FAA issue for that week to allow multiple planes to land simultaneously, hence the dots. In this case, if they didn't say something, that faster plane behind him would have ended in a potential crash. We need to stay alert when at Oshkosh because of the congestion. I am sure ATC didn't think that plane would be so fast on final. The dots are there for a reason. But he handled it well, just like an immediate go-around happens to us all.
@@ForderLearnToFly I think you're misunderstanding the point - it's not that 'land on the spot' is wrong. It's that it's unreasonable and unsafe to change the landing clearance (the spot they actually want to you land on) while the pilot is in the process of landing at the original spot. They should be ahead of issues like that.
It didn't even sound like they were changing the instruction but scolding him for apparently doing something wrong. Correct voice instruction could have been "disregard yellow dot landing, XXXXX land end of runway long. Bonanza behind you."
It shouldn't at all be dangerous and that's the elephant in the room as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who's been granted a private pilots license should be able to negotiate a change from ATC as long as that change is reasonable to the aircraft and conditions being flown. ATC can't tell a Gulfstream that just landed to take the next non-high speed exit if the pilot doesn't have adequate room to stop. But if you're flying a Cessna 206 and you're in the flare, flaps down, throttle at idle and you're 4 ft. above the pavement before touchdown and tower tells you to go around... IMMEDIATELY you should execute --basic pilot skills-- and apply full power/retract the flaps and simply do what tower tells you to do. It's just too easy to (1) fly the aircraft (2) follow the instructions given to the extent that they make sense based on pilot/aircraft type capabilities. The problem is that people are getting licenses without being trained to actually fly the aircraft in various real-world situations such as baulked landings with a side-step to the left or right of the runway, before climb-out, etc.. which is a real-world scenario if a plane/vehicle/ or squadron of pelicans cross the active runway when they shouldn't have. Pilots need to get back to flying the plane.
My experience is from the 80’s and one advice I got (for a c-172) was to drop 20 degrees flaps (Vice 40) on final in case you need to extend. The runway is plenty long.
I ended up not having to extend so no problem.
Back then there was no colored dots.
Good experience.
First it's them referring to his Sling as RV can be confusing. Then it's super stressful to get last minute change when already cleared. Then tone of air traffic. Thank you for sharing I think the controller will see this and get a better understanding of his own skillset and how to improve.
I have a passion for flying that I've had since I was a kid. I used to religiously read 'kit plane' magazine (does that even still exist?). The thing is, in college, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, so I am not eligible for a pilots license. I really appreciate pieces like this one that you did as it gives me a really interesting insight into what it's like to learn to fly without needing to get into an aircraft.
My instructor was an ex-Navy pilot, after I got a few hours under my belt he became changing landing instructions regularly. Great training.
???
Hectic to another level. After being cleared to land, tower ordered me to perform a 360, but although flying over water, (Pax River Maryland) however I was still at 300 ft, but on your case you were about to touch down. You stayed calm and flew it as the professional you are, awesome. Safe flying, thanks for sharing.
Never been to Oshkosh but am a high time pilot. It seems that pilots should be prepared and have trained before arriving to suddenly and unexpectedly comply with an instruction to remain airborne and continue to touch down at the next spot along the runway. That would necessitate applying some power to increase speed a little above the stall for as long as needed to reach the further touchdown spot. In this clip it sounded like the stall warner continued to beep for a while, suggesting that the pilot didn't apply enough power, perhaps due to being surprised by the intense voice repeating the same instruction over and over. It certainly would have startled me!
Not a pilot, but that freaked me out.
Not a real life pilot and hardly going to pretend that a lifetime of Microsoft flight simulator counts as the same thing. But I'd expect one of the dangers presented by this situation would be overcorrecting when someone tells you at the last possible moment to do something different. Like, I could see someone responding to the ATC's anxious yelling by firewalling the throttle so that he's left trying to land with too much power on shorter stretch of runway than originally planned.
I've flown to Oshkosh a number of times. I have three piloting skills that I recommend to every pilot that asks about skills for landing at Oshkosh: slipping turn downwind to final, keeping the plane in ground effect after a change to your landing point, and nailing your landing spot every single time. If you can't do those things, you shouldn't fly into Oshkosh. This isn't military-style flying, it's being highly proficient, and you aren't going to be highly proficient if you're only getting a couple dozen landings per year with 1-mile finals.
@@MikeBohlmann Spot on Mike, I really think this is a poor video and an example of a pilot who should not be flying to Oshkosh. He is making excuses for his poor airmanship and his attitude is not very good in my opinion as well.
@@benjigault9043 Jealous much ?
I wouldn’t even know what they wanted with the “fly it down the runway” instruction. I think I would think they are looking for a go around - not land further down.
IMO they need to work on more meaningful instructions. Even just saying “land at red dot instead” or whatever would be more useful in the heat of the moment.
I agree. I fault the ATC.
Probably because I'm not a native English speaker, but the word DOWN would have been interpreted as LAND by me in that situation quite easily.
@@BrunoLogerfo down is often used similar to "over there" Down the road, down there, etc. Doesnt always mean vertical change.
@@BrunoLogerfoATC literally said do not descend.
Exactly. "Fly it down the runway" , or "traffic behind", or "extend", or "do not descend" or whatever are useless as instructions because while they tell you what not to do they give the pilot zero information on what they need to do next and lack the additional information on how far. i.e. "fly down" how far? No idea. "traffic behind" yeah, but how close and do you still want me to land or not? "do not descend" so is that a go around, or not descend for 1000 ft I don't know, you've got a view of the situation when I don't, why are you giving me half a picture with no idea on what to do next. Make it stupid simple and hard to mess up, make it either: "go around" - and I've got a formal missed approach procedure drilled into my mind - or "red dot" (or whatever colour is next or two further down), possibly with an "expedite" added. And "fly it down the runway" is infuriatingly long non-standard vocabulary. "red dot" might be non-standard technically, but it's a physical object right in front of the pilot with only two syllables, and "expedite" is super clear as well and carries with it the connotation of a conflict. And the nice thing is that "red dot" gives ATC a clear signal on where exactly they the plane to go without needing any follow up or other mental overhead.
I'm a Pilot in training and know that when you're taught how to land and then they change the landing position would stress anyone out specifically when you have tell you how to fly the plane you yourself have control of.
I've had my instructor tell me to do 1 thing then change to another, but put it down as if she is trying see what I would do under a little pressure,
I love my instructor and wouldn't change a thing.
Especially when the tower failed to admit their previous instruction was wrong and is being changed. The poor pilot was trying to understand how to obey both contradictory instructions, one to land on the yellow AND one to fly further down the runway. The tower is supposed to explicitly tell the pilot when they are meant to disregard a previous instruction so the pilot isn't having to guess whether they misunderstood.
The danger of a rule that says, "if they contradict then just stop following the previous instruction" is that it's possible to misunderstand or mishear the newer instruction so maybe it wasn't meant to repeal the older one but you misheard it and thought it did and start disregarding an instruction you were supposed to keep following.
As a 74 y.o current pilot of 49 years flying a Meridian for the last 21 years I could not agree more. I practice these procedures all the time. Thank You
I landed at Oshkosh about 30 years ago. They were using 2 runways to land 3 planes at a time (landing long or short on the longest runway.). No dots painted on the runways. First (and last) time I ever saw 3 planes land at the same time on 2 runways. Really required a lot of concentration and communication.
Did the same in the early 1980’s. I remember just following air traffic and how long that 36L runway is. Lucky both time I was asked to land on the numbers. With my plane we were off before the first hash marks. Best flying/camping events of my life. Airplanes from the time we woke up till we went to sleep. I do remember how humid it was in the afternoons.
Great analysis. Last minute ATC instructions when you are in flights most vulnerable position is asking for problems.
Good points Mike! I highly recommend everyone practice three things before going. 1. Power settings for 90 kts 2. Last minute fly down the runway assignment 3. Tight left and right patterns. Landing on rwy 27 can be tricky, tight pattern and then throw it to the right and it gets pretty sketchy over there.
You are right on the mark. I have seen many pilots get excited about going to fly ins well above their skill level. You really have to be as good as you think you are before you show up at Oshkosh or Sun & Fun. Often pilots with deep pockets buy planes above their skill level and try to show off by going to events they are not ready for.
I saw the air’s how stuff vid literally yesterday and puckered up in suspicion that it was you mojo, I’m so glad everything is ok, I knew your plane was in the verge of stalling by the high angle of attack while going down the runway
Hello Sir, I am not a pilot. I did fly into Oshkosh as a passenger in 1995. We were in a Skymaster fully loaded with four onboard an camping gear. As I recall 80 mph was difficult as we were mushing through the air . On final approach we were instructed to switch to the parallel taxi way and my pilot stayed on course because of induced drag . He didn’t want to stall it. Lucking a nimble little Dragonfly that was directly in front of us easily switched to the taxiway to land , the Tower thanked that pilot and we proceeded to land with no problem and had the time of our lives for the next week. It was AWESOME!
I was taught that tower must leave a pilot in short final alone until after touchdown unless there's imminent danger. He should have instructed the bonanza to abort. The lowest plane has priority. This is how accidents happen.
Exactly!
So the plane about to run over him from behind doesn’t count as imminent danger?
I am an x Navy and airline pilot…..your discussion is excellent and helpful for all..Good Job!
I felt the same way about osh, I was worried about it for the weeks leading up but then everything went really well until I touched down (in front of 30k ppl right before the afternoon show).
As I touched down, atc yelled at me to get off the runway right away cuz there was a warbird coming in hot behind me. Almost hit a light/cone trying to get onto the grass at 50kts in an Archer...
My takeaway was that I need to fly the plane all the way to the campsite -- just cuz you're on the ground doesn't mean you're done -- which was certainly not something I anticipated.
All in all our was a great weekend tho!
I have never flown in there because of all of the stories just like this one that I have heard. You have a beautiful airplane!!!! Thanks for sharing.
Someone has probably already said this, but if you don't feel comfortable about your landing situation, GO AROUND. It might be nice to know your landing distance limit vs how much runway you have in front of you. Study the runways before you get there. Good video.
The guy in the right seat who was watching your airspeed is a true friend. Maybe one more thing for fixed wing pilots to practice would be a go-around from the landing flare. You did great.
Good info, good instructions. Showing the video was perfect. Landing, always be prepared. In a crowd, more so, always be prepared.
Been watching your videos for a while now. This is one of your best. Learned something new for sure. And, I have no doubt you've just helped a lot of pilots new to Oshkosh.
This reminds of something that I used to see in a totally unrelated subject. Our local cycling club has a range of members that each have different capabilities. Some are 23-25+mph riders while others are barely making 12mph. These are people that ride in a group that gets stretched out a few miles by the time they complete their scheduled weekly ride. On the weekends, especially when there is a big televised international race like the Tour De France, these amateur riders who only occasionally ride together try to emulate their professional racing idols by forming drafting lines and a rag tag peloton. They bunch up, the front wheel of one bike nipping at the rear wheel of the bike ahead of them. They think that because they see the pros do it, that they can do it. Every time they do this, we hear of a terrible accident that results in at least two damaged bikes and moderate injuries. The point of this is that at Oshkosh and Fun-n-Sun, and other fly-ins like it, there are many more aircraft in the air space than both the pilots in command are accustomed to and sometimes more planes than the controllers are used to. Situational awareness is an issue for both the PICs and ATCs. In such situations, someone has to be in command. While the PIC is responsible for flying his or her aircraft, and doing so safely and executing the commands of ATC, it is ultimately the responsibility of ATC to control the air space. Their pre-event risk assessments and analysis should include the reality that pilots unfamiliar with the area and unfamiliar with flying in such traffic density are going to be inbound and outbound and overwhelmed. This should change the airspace intervals normally assigned to traffic. Increasing the traffic spacing will give both pilot and controller a little more time. 10-15 seconds can save lives. Just my two cents.
Jeffissimo, they've been doing this for decades, I'm sure they discuss everything you mentioned. Nothing is "standard" about osh & SnF procedures. The more they space things out the fewer aircraft make it in. Make it really safe and only a few hundred planes would be there instead of thousands. ATC does a great job, but just like your cycling friends, there's always a few pilots who overestimate their abilities, haven't done their homework, or simply aren't prepared to handle it.
I would have loved to have heard and seen your video prior to my first trip there. We had a really narrow escape and I haven't been back and what's more I won't be going back.
Looks to me like you did a great job. You flew it the best way you could and followed instructions nicely, he changed his mind, you did the best you could and executed. Nice job under a stressful situation, thanks for the content.
Almost stalling over the runway instead of just extending is not “doing the best you could”
As a taildragger pilot, if I heard the non-standard phrase "fly it down the runway" I would assume that it meant "Fly it down *onto* the runway" and thus I was being asked to do a wheelie landing rather than a 3-pointer.
I would just tell the tower unable and land. Sorry but changing a landing clearance 100 ft prior to touchdown is a completely unsafe request of the tower. The FAA should look into the procedures used and give better training to the controllers.
OshKosh does seem a little wild when it comes to aviation safety. If I was a part-timer I would never attempt landing there. Seasoned knuckleheads only!😂
Just finding this video now, one year later, however, your words are applicable, spoken honestly, and articulated very well!
Absolutely correct! You have to know everything your aircraft can do! The worst thing that can happen is to be in front of or behind someone that doesn’t and you need to know how to handle the plane to compensate for a part time pilot! I hope new bees watch this and learn everything that pertains to getting safely to osh! Good job!
Wow. I'm a VFR pilot and yeah!! That was ridiculous.
Thank you for posting this. Never been to Oshkosh and honestly never wanted to, but that right there I've never heard anyone talk about before.. I will just stick to my small, okie town grass strip flying. Thanks. Lol
Precticing go arounds, short field, and learning to land on your own designated spots would be good measure
You are right, having flown to air venture you need to know your airplane very well and as you said a lot of practice in. BBC differ basic skills would be great. And getting all the briefings provided, you will be comfortable and have great time.
You also could practice an approach keeping you airspeed up all the way to almost touch down instead of a normal stabilized approach with a stabilized descent and speed on final and missed approaches, because when power is added in the landing configuration, you pitch trim is off and adds significant pressure on the yoke. This happened to me once when in the pattern with a large turboprop military aircraft that was doing pattern work. They turned base to final too close behind me. The tower was repeated encouraging me to keep up my speed and then to exit the runway. Kind of unexpected and the first time I had to do anything like that so it was a little stressful but I pulled it off OK.
Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I've heard the ATC clips from Oshkosh so I was curious about the pilot's perspective.
My late grandfather used to fly into Oshkosh with the CAF. When I was young we always talked about how i was getting of age to go with him, sadly Cancer took him from us quickly. Oshkosh was one of his favorite things in thw world.
Perhaps attend in his honor? He would probably want you to see it. I’ve never been, but it sounds exciting.
@@VictoryAviation definitely on my bucket list. I wanna fly in and I know he will be right beside me smiling.
I've never few into Oshkosh and I doubt if I ever will, but thank you for your info on this complex experience. Jim
Once a plane is slowed down for landing, it is very difficult to get the plane flying again. It takes time and power to get it to change to a flying mod. Its lame for the tower to have you do that. If they had a faster plane behind you, they hadn't planed their landings and type of aircraft properly. I would say it was their fault.
cleared to land means cleaRED TO LAND
@@jessetrott2549 It doesn mean much. In the U.S. A.T.C. clear airplanes to land even if the runway is occupied. Happen everyday at all U.S. airports. It means clear to land IF the traffic currently blocking the runway will get out before you land. It means also you just number 1 for the landing, nothin else.
@@12345fowler you are absolutely wrong about this. cleared to land is a legal statement from ATC that you own that entire runway and you may use it as such to land. I hold a pilot's certificate in the USA. ATC will very very rarely clear you to land on a runway with an incursion present. It would not be legal. That said I've of course seen it happen when a plane is departing the active and is almost off, or you are behind another aircraft but there will be pother instructions with that transmission such as cleared to land #2 behind, or LAHS or something. this isn't up for interpretation.
@@jessetrott2549 This may be your experience, and it isn’t wrong if that’s what you’ve witnessed. I’m not trying to make a dig at you. It just sounds like you haven’t flown at very many busy class C or class B airports. “Cleared to land” is an instruction given all the time even when you may have an aircraft or two in front of you while on approach. Anything can happen during this phase of flight and you must be prepared to go around regardless of whether you were cleared to land.
For example, two days ago I was on final at Pensacola and had been cleared to land. A regional jet had been cleared for takeoff in front of me as I was on final. Unfortunately the jet didn’t get its act together and start their takeoff roll in time and I had to side step and go around. Since I had been cleared to land, should I have flown right through the back of the jet causing a literal catastrophe? Of course not. I side stepped and went around per ATC’s instructions. Of course I was anticipating this, but nonetheless I wouldn’t have caused a huge crash just because two minutes before I’d been cleared to land.
“Cleared to land” means cleared to land FOR NOW, unless something happens and it must be changed.
** Forgot to mention, commercial pilot here for reference.
@@VictoryAviation i don't know why my other replies aren't visible. of course you go around if a line up and wait isn't wheels up. I was based out of LA, one of the busiest airspaces in the world. I've been to plenty class B's and C's. I said in an earlier comment that if there is an incursion, you aren't going to land but otherwise, it's completely your runway however you want it. Cleared to land is a legal phrase from ATC.
I agree with you Mike, things like slow flight, short approaches and go arounds, should be practiced without all of the pressure of being at OSH at an airport you are familiar with. The controller is trying to keep a safe distance between you and the guy in front and behind, if either don't or can't keep that distance the controller will call on you to help. Your right, you must be prepared and practiced to land in a hectic environment, it seems for you that from Fisk in everyone behaved them selves, but as you know even the high time warbird pilots have had problems there. Good job and I like the message you are sending. Cheers!
Thanks for the heads up bro. I plan on flying there for the first time next Oshkosh show. And I definitely agree. There should be a procedure bulletin to practice available.
I also did the FISK approach this year. Certainly you have to do a Linda Blair with your head to keep aware. But I sympathize with you when you are on short final and almost touching down as instructed. But I do want to mention that this kind of last minute instruction from ATC is similar to a go-around. Any of us could have to do a go-around in the same scenario as you experienced. (once there was a tractor pull out on the runway as I was touching down). So we are always alert to this critical moment. Glad you handled it and shared with us.
Good video- really this kind of thing happens frequently to us general aviation pilots…..on half mile final and the tower asks you to climb and do a 360 degree turn to return to land, for instance. We always have to keep calm and fly it, read back, and execute. We should always practice the teardrop and steeper turns so we have the proper feel for our aircraft. We all probably don’t practice these moves enough. Good refresher. Thanks for the video.
Literally had to sidestep and conduct a 360 on short final a couple days ago at Pensacola because a regional jet didn’t have its crap together and took too much time starting their takeoff roll. It happens. It wasn’t a big deal. I was anticipating the go around and sidestep the entire last 30 seconds seeing as how there was a jet sitting there on the threshold and it wasn’t moving its ass 😅
@@VictoryAviation My CFI made me do 360 on final at 500 agl. A Vfinal speed 360. Dont to them with a crosswind, unless you are very good at them.
@@outwiththem A crosswind doesn’t make any difference to the airplane because it’s only relative to the ground. Plus if you’re conducting any type of go around in any form, you should be applying go around power. For most GA aircraft that’s full power.
Just got my helicopter add on yesterday. Even in that full power is applied, though a little differently since it’s a constant speed system.
@@VictoryAviation Not so. A strong crosswind, not corrected well can make you get off track if in cruise. and turning, can make you missaligned too.
Try these maneuvers.
1-The 360 on final at 400 agl with a full 20 knot crosswind from the left.
2-360 Spot flyovers with a tailwind aligment over the spot.
Do at least 3 of them. with a tailwind 20 knot tailwind alignment. Start it with a downwind/tailwind alignment to the spot to do the 360's. FAA style calls to start with a downwind/tailwind. Do 3 of them. Dont cheat.
GRM is taught very mild in USA. No alignments with a tailwind are taught at all. and that is why so many GRM base to final stalls and crashes.
@@outwiththem You’re talking about ground reference maneuvers. The wind still makes absolutely no difference to the flight of the aircraft when aloft. It only makes a difference with the aircraft’s orientation to the ground. An aircraft’s performance doesn’t take any wind into consideration until it is referenced to the ground, such as maximum demonstrated crosswind component, or taking off downwind vs into the wind.
My dad flew his Waco into Oshkosh several times. He absolutely loved it! RIP dad.
I flew into Sun-N-Fun once. I drove in the rest of the times. Just a bet overwhelming trying to keep an eye on all the other planes that are not doing exactly as they should. It is a very impressive thing to get so many planes in an out like they do.
I hear you I flew into Sun and Fun back in 2004.. I've never sweated so much I would rather fly an approach in IMC than Sun and Fun again
I have been a controller at Sun n Fun for 10 years now. It is a challenge every minute of every day.
I'm a Retired 747 Captain and have flown Twin Otters in STOL operations in Africa. I've been to Oshkosh several times, the first time was in 1976 with about 300-400 hours TT, in a C-177RG with my Mom and Dad on board (brand new Instrument rating) the flight from Grand Forks to Oshkosh was IFR/IMC, so we made the approach. The other times were all VFR and it can get crazy! Your point is important, you have to study and be familiar with the Airventure procedures. I've never had a problem with Oshkosh. It's a fun experience to fly into the event.
Mojo- *Just trying to land
Bonanza- *Drops out of hyperspace behind him.
Dude, you are sooo right. I know I am late catching this video but there was a crash in San Diego about 3 days ago of a Lear 35. It crashed turning in on final and wound up spinning in about 1.4mi short of the runway. This type of crash is very common as well and we, the GA community need to pay attention to this type of accident.
we also need to accept responsibility as PIC, this guy is blaming everyone except himself, he was unprepared and almost paid the price...
Mike one thing you may think about is that you have different types of aircraft landing back to back on the same runway. Different speed aircrafts need different landing procedures.. Also the tower needs someone with experience to monitor whose landing at what sequence...
So the problem with sequencing is at airventure everything is visual no using radar that starts at Fisk approach where by visuals they try to sort aircraft. But you also get flights of different types that want to stay together as well. Tower at Oshkosh does a fantastic job creating order in the chaos. The biggest things to remember are 1: read and know the notam 2: just listen to atc and be ready for changes. 3: create a mental picture in your head as to what you hear and see and 4: trust atc there is 2 people watching you land in the tower cab every landing and they generally have the big picture in mind
My 1st instructor had me transition from the threshold to slow-flying most of the way down the 10K+ ft runway of a former AFB, translating left and right within the 200ft width. It helped a lot for this sort of thing.
Excellent video. I agree completely. I would, however, let ATC know my experience level if it wasn't enough and to give me a bit of room ahead and behind. Safety should always trump efficiency.
And that works in many airports in the world but unless they are slow and bored or you are asked a direct question it’s frowned upon to key up the mic. I mean if you plan to go around or there is a problem key up but most the time it’s preferred to limit keying up there is a lot going on
Paul Santos: pilots flying in/out are instructed NOT to transmit. If they did they'd just be stepping all over each other. Osh is not for beginners and one cannot expect to be coddled.
Never having ACTUALLY flown into ‘Oshkosh’..the way I see it THIS WAS ON THEM. They ALREADY KNEW that Bonanza was following you, they could have told you PRIOR to “fly further down the runway”..instead of hammering you MG. My .02… great job brother.
"Expectation bias" is the mindset where one makes a decision or takes an action based on what that person "expects" to take place as opposed to making a decision or taking an action to the situation as it actually is. Going into Oshkosh you studied all the procedures and prepared. All of that is GOOD! Remember; "proper prior preparation prevents pitifully poor performance". You were given some colored "dot" to land on and were set up to do just that. But the Tower changed the plan. Now you do not have any prior preparation to fall back on and you have to revert to basic airmanship and flying skills-yeah pilots have to do "pilot stuff". Good for you taking your fine airplane out to broaden your PIC experience and building up your confidence. Nice video!
Good thing you made it! It was really confusing
Watched a lot as many of you did of the Oshkosh Air Venture landings and live tower communication. There was a significant number of landings as directed by the tower well beyond the dotted line. It was communicated to the pilot about faster aircraft following . I can understand it being a good bit nerving last second orders from the tower.
Well that's totally different than what he just showed !! 100 %
This is a very important video. I quit flying in to Osh Kosh 3 years ago because it is NOT safe. You are right, its hard to know what to expect at Osh Kosh because ATC is authorizing non standard approaches which are dangerous, and packing so many airplanes in the pattern that a single mistake by one pilot has the potential to cause an incident with surrounding aircraft. I made this point recently to Dan Millican, who is good buddies with Jack Pelton, CEO of AirVenture. Dan is an aviation RUclipsr who makes videos about air safety, and at the same time is a big proponent of EAA's AirVenture. This is a big contradiction to me, so I wrote Dan the following: (Tell me what you think):
Dan, your reply is a great example of confirmation bias. Blaming the 19 human beings killed in fatal crashes at EAA (over the past 20 years) of "breaking the rules and doing stupid stuff" is a really heartless way of deflecting liability from EAA and FAA, and shifting 100% of the blame to the victims.
EAA AIRSPACE IS OVERCROWDED
It's easier to blame the dead guy, but remember all of these fatalities flew into an airspace intentionally overcrowded by ATC, (a fact generally ignored during accident investigations). So overcrowded, aircraft are landing on taxiways, multiple aircraft are landing on the same runway at the same time, and near misses are a daily occurrence. Mass arrivals are also allowed-30 weekend warrior pilots flying experimental airplanes (in formation) land at Wittman, causing dozens of other inbound private pilots, some inexperienced, to fly holding patterns without proper spacing and in overcrowded airspace. Does that promote safety? No it doesn't.
OVERCROWDED AIRSPACE + NON STANDARD APPROACHES ARE KILLING PILOTS & PASSENGERS
If these crashes concerned EAA enough to perform a root cause analysis, they would find that overcrowded airspace and non-standard approaches contribute more to the cause of these accidents than pilots doing "stupid stuff". In most cases, ATC put pilots in bad situations that exceed their skills. Controllers telling pilots when to turn to final, or to steepen their turn, or to speed up, or to slow down, only make matters worse. A pilot's first instinct is to comply w/ATC, and pilots who did so while being low and slow ended up on the ground, in a ball of flames, because they weren't experienced enough to say "unable".
EAA's EFFORTS TO GROW REVENUE EXACERBATES OVERCROWDING & IGNORES SAFETY
Why is the airspace overcrowded? Because EAA wants more people and airplanes to attend, and more revenue from the show. The EAA and its proponents claim a fatality each year is 'acceptable' when compared to the thousands of successful flights in and out of Wittman Field during AirVenture. Is a dead pilot per annum acceptable? EAA trying to grow the event beyond the capacity of the airspace, and the FAA's mysterious waiver that enable controllers to cut corners, ignore federal aviation regulations, and allow "non-standard" approaches and departures are responsible for dead pilots.
STATISTICS
Jack Pelton, CEO of Air Venture, said "in 2023, we had 677,000 attendees at AirVenture, and in 2024, attendance grew to 686,000." He continued, "At Wittman alone, there were 16,780 aircraft operations in the 11-day period from July 18-28, which is an average of approximately 113 takeoffs/landings per hour when the airport is open."
For comparison, JFK handled 481,126 aircraft in 2023, (equivalent to 40,093 aircraft movements/month, 1336/day,) or 56 aircraft movements per hour. There are twice as many aircraft moving in and out of Wittman Field than JFK, but at Wittman, air traffic does not have to meet the same strict FAA regulations. (No orange dots at JFK...)
Now the SOLUTION:
Enforce the law. Its that simple. During EAA, Wittman Field should be treated as a class B airspace, just as LAX or JFK. That will reduce the number of aircraft that can be handled during the 'fly-in', however, stopping the overcrowding and non-standard arrivals will result in a safe experience for all attendees. During the airshow part of the event, airspace should be closed and under the authority of an airboss.
The Reno Air Races were cancelled due to safety issues. Don't let this happen to EAA Airventure. I support the event as long as it is a safe event. As long as Jack Pelton and EAA maintain the status quo, don't be surprised if you see families who lost loved ones file lawsuits against EAA, and don't be surprised if the House and Senate Transportation and Aviation Subcommittees call hearings to 1) investigate why airspace is being intentionally overcrowded at WIttman Field during OshKosh, and 2) why the FAA is not enforcing federal law during the event.
Slowing things down and doing things right is the best path forward. Cutting corners and blaming dead people will be the end of OshKosh.
Military style landing means one continuous turn from the downwind to final, no base leg.
It’s a great way to practice landings if you’re in the pattern by yourself
To eliminate easy aim for the enemy guns.
Mojo said as much.
love it at my field when the controller typically puts me in the right downwind, and then calls my base, "cleared straight to the numbers for runway 32, #2 behind the Cessna", and she knows I will do it quickly, and that way she can fit my RV in between the trainers on the left circuit timed exactly when she wants. "Late clearance to land; thanks for the help again." Really cool doing approaches like that, and great practice managing speed in an RV.
I think you were very gracious with your comments about the tower. If there is one thing competent pilots are known for, is that they stay calm when dealing with a problem. The tower not only failed to sound calm, not only failed to give you more useful information, they seemed to be giving conflicting instructions (maybe I'm just too inexperienced, but I heard "fly down the runway", "put it down" and "add power"). You would think the Oshkosh organizers would emplace extra procedures for the special environment Oshkosh presents and only staff the tower with top-tier controllers.
I think how much you flair before a landing becomes a big factor here. Some like flying to the dots others flair to a crawl and touch down. Difficult to just speed up and fly at last moment when sticking the landing. Wider spacing for all is the only safe solution in my opinion.
he was cleared. has nothing to do with how you land he was cleared. dont be an asshole.
@@jessetrott2549 Sorry I was not trying to offend. I was trying to say no pilot did wrong. Different styles we grow accustomed to. My approach would have been exactly as RV. I am cleared and making my approach to the designated dot, then instructions change because of spacing which forces me to amend my procedure. This is not a normal everyday occurrence which opens up opportunity for error. Spacing I feel caused this situation.
@@jamesandrews29 spacing is the real issue here. The controllers should have made the faster plane behind him do a 360 and get back in line.
@@jessetrott2549 Who’s being an asshole? Yikes man. There wasn’t anything aggressive said in the gentleman’s post.
@@Jkur2009 Thank you ,EXACTLY !!!!!!!!!!!
I happened to watch the video on Air Show Stuff and saw your landing. It was clear from the video angle had you not followed the controller's instruction there would have been a crash. So Good Job Ace. 👍
When a pilot exceeds the capability, proficiency or preparation - you have a failure or crash. It is not a typical environment and as a pilot we have to expect those last second changes. It's intense! You did well and a great recap. But as a pilot - we have to expect a last second change or plans.
Seems like they could make instructions clearer, especially with multi-aircraft simultaneous landings. Another common instruction is "Aim for the yellow dot, land on the green" but many pilots only hear aim for the yellow and then check out so it goes both ways. In your case you had traffic and they could have indicated that much more clearly but apparently they were getting quite nervous as well.
Did it twice. It was nuts!
"Blue Cessna ... LAND ON THE DOT!. . . Red Piper ....... Land long... Bonanza, exit the runaway... WHOA! But those guys in the tower were GREAT!
The video seems to paint a picture that the RV pilot wasn’t doing as requested. But as a pilot, I know that you were slowed to landing speed then asked to fly down the runway. You don’t just poor the coals to it and hope to slow down again. It’s a balancing act and the pilot did a good job of keeping things safe. Maybe a little slow but too fast could have had consequences. Great job under that stress.
Pretty much SOP at OSH. As tough as it seems it was worse in the old days. Knowing how to slip to kill excess speed and altitude is a real plus. All the rules and procedures at OSH are written in blood.
To put you down on a runway Infront of a faster aircraft without sufficient separation is tower error.
I'm fairly sure the EAA website does recommend practicing the things you talked about in the video. If you are not proficient in them, I'd recommend not going. I too did my first ever OSH trip this year and was the second to last to land on 36 on Saturday evening. I got to do it again a few days later when I flew my plane to Iowa to avoid the Derecho. For me the most stressful part was trying to get in sequence at the first reporting point. It was crazy busy there.
Not only that, but the OSH NOTAM itself describes the types of landing maneuvers that my be required. It shouldn't be a mystery. Bring your A game or don't fly in.
You did a great job stabilizing that plane after an abrupt instruction from the tower- kudos my man
Letting three members of a team land together on a runway is enough of a risk but instructing 3 strangers with different aircraft, who may have not been at that airport before, is worrying. Also, telling people to make tight turns without them having experience, is just EAA risking a bellow minimum manoeuvring velocity stall accident.
This will test you for sure. In training my instructor and I were landing on a 10,000' runway and I was instructed by the tower to speed up and land as far down the runway as possible due to following high speed traffic. My instructor took over and sort of flew the aircraft about 5' off the ground all the way to the intersecting runway and did a perfect sort of chandelle onto the intersecting runway and landed. The tower called back and said "Thanks Gord" knowing right well that that was not me flying. We later called that a "Hover Taxi". I will never forget it.
Hi Mike, excellent insight!
After reading some of the other comments, my PPL check-ride came to memory. My DPE was in a hurry to get to another scheduled check ride and saw the examinee as we were on a stabilized short final to 04 R at MDW and he ordered me to expedite the landing and taxi to the south ramp. I executed the expedite poorly and almost didn’t pass the check-ride. First check-rides for your PPL are stressful, executing them in busy Class C airspace under the Class B of ORD adds a level of greater complexity.
Landing at Oshkosh during AirVenture for your first time with unfamiliar procedures with compressed traffic would have to be even more stressful than my check-ride with a SWA 737 on final behind me and a DPE ordering me to expedite for his next check-ride. At least I had normal separation from ATC.
whats cool is your supportive and cooperative attitude to all this under stress and pressure and also some personal risk! Respect!
really great 'real world' pilot stuff
My favorite saying about landing a plane is…….WHEN YOU STOP FLING PUT IT ON THE RUNWAY. I loved your video. Here is another thought for you….SAFETY IS THOUGHT BEFORE ACTION. 😊
As someone who's never been to oshkosh, this sounds like they threw the ATC rulebook out the window with these procedures, and are handling it with blatant disregard for the safety culture aviation is known for... thanks for sharing your experience!
When I flew into OSH in '74, the procedure was to "report over the gravel pit." The gravel pit is across the street from the north side of the airport. You were basically on downwind to 27. Now you report over Fisk, about 10 miles out, or Ripon, even further out.
Always good to hear from you! You are awesome! And yes, practice landings are important… along with the ability to flow with the situation as it happens and adjust accordingly which is much easier said than done. I record my flights and review them later to improve … there is always room to improve. Thanks for sharing and helping other pilots be better the next time one flys. 😃👍🏻
Always remember dipweed on the mike is on the ground with a microphone...he screws up he goes home...you screw up you get a tag on your toe at the medical examiner's office. Had a strong worded go around with Osh controller in 2018.