Excellent Tip #3 (9:10) Be ready upon arrival to execute the departure procedure and know the altitudes beforehand. The entire Notice is 32 pages long! Good time for CRM! Steve- add a link to the Notice above. Jb.
Here's the notam/notice link, and I'll edit the description later to add it there too. www.eaa.org/airventure/eaa-fly-in-flying-to-oshkosh/eaa-airventure-oshkosh-notam
1. Very sorry to hear about your loss. 2. Mad respect for your humility but I do think you might be being a little hard on yourself. 3. Good job keeping your head on. I had heard about this rumbling through the crowd last year at Oshkosh. 4. I really like you pointing out the difficulty of the initial merging into the conga line. For me that is traditionally the most stressful part. See you at airventure. Fly safe!
Most importantly, you kept flying the plane! 👍 With high workloads, pilots can neglect airspeed, forget to switch fuel tanks, forget landing gear, etc.
@FlightChops I lost my brother in an accident many years ago when he was only 24. He had a wife and two year old, with another on the way. A hard hard time for everyone. I'm sure that you'll be holding everyone close.
I think you're being a little hard on yourself, Steve. ATC didn't yell at you, they gave you an instruction. Just because people know your voice and your callsign doesn't mean you're not allowed to make mistakes. Don't hold yourself to an unreasonably high standard
@@FlightChops We all learned something from this. My plane is coming in on Thursday before the show. I have a 2nd pilot on board, and we've already briefed the arrival, what we're doing, and what we will do on a wave off on final. We will execute the published VFR departure, head back to Fisk and try it again. Seems like the safest course of action.
What a tremendous learning tool. I agree with Chops being hard on himself. As a FF, I once heard from and older guy, I'm not yelling at you, I'm excitedly telling you what I need. Usually the more excited he told me, the more excited my movements were. Criticism can be great to learn from too if given correctly. Chops does well with this I think and his followers too. Like offering a similar feeling on the fire ground. Great job Chops! I know your arrival this year will be your redemption!!
@@FlightChopsit’s ironic, but someone asked Cathy and David about go arounds during the SimVenture Q&A and they agreed, follow the departure procedure. It was after the Saturday practice. I agree the notam should mention that- way too hard to figure that out in the moment. You outlined all the pressures that real pilots face on the approach, weather, dissimilar “formation”, situational awareness and operations in slow flight… wow. There’s always something more to brief, but great job!
Sorry for your loss. This is a very honest video. I would make one comment on what I have seen here overall. Things often do go wrong in aviation. It can be very difficult to put that behind you and concentrate on what is happening now and what needs to happen in the next few seconds and minutes. Avoid the temptation to be distracted by re-hashing in your mind what has just gone wrong. Doing so detracts from your capacity to ensure that the recovery from the undesired state goes right. It happened, move on. There will be plenty of time to review the mistake on the ground over a coffee or something cold. Great job.
Thanks for watching to the end. 👍 And yes for sure, I cringed watching myself debrief with Katie while we were still in the thick of it… but it was good to have captured, and I’m happy to humbly share it for others to learn from.
Reminds me of the UK PFA rallies in the 1980s. Pilot trying to land A Beech Baron among dozens of cubs and similar. The tower told him "Sir, Your'e about number 43 in traffic. Land at your own discretion. He did, after 5 go rounds.
We had an adventure last year too. We flew in Thursday morning, ended up getting turned back at or before Fisk 5 times, first two just to Green Lake, second two to Puckaway, then all the way back to Endeavor. When we landed and taxied to the south forty 😞, the lineup of planes waiting to leave was all the way back to the south fence! I swore I was done, never coming back......now I can't wait to fly in on Wednesday the 24th! 🙂
Thanks for sharing this video. It will help somebody. I had a similar experience two years ago at KOSH. I nearly wound up flying in the "red box" as well. Afterwards, I came to the same conclusion that you have... fly the departure procedure on a go-around. It seems obvious now but it was not obvious in the moment. Also, sorry to hear about your brother. I'll be praying for you guys. Godspeed.
Nobody can really prepare for what happened; you were very deep in the eye of a perfect storm. You used all the tools at your disposal, including the blessing of a copilot to help disseminate the flood of unanticipated information coming at you. You were shoved into a nightmare and all the players did their best to cope; other pilots, controllers, even the guy that caused it all. I feel so blessed that I had two relatively smooth OSH arrivals in two years. I also made some mistakes that I was able to learn from after reviewing my own videos. Last year I had the same experience in the conga line, following two STOL aircraft that probably could have done 90 knots, but just didn't. I ended up breaking out of line and fortunately I had a large gap behind me so I circled around and got back in line long before any controllers were involved (yeah I know that's not the correct procedure but it was the wisest and safest course of action at the time so I took it). The only bit of advice I can offer: plan to arrive before noon on the Thursday before OSH starts; it's quite a bit easier then. That being said, you have a lot of good stuff to offer in this one and I hope many people can learn from it, including the controllers! This experience is hopefully the worst you'll ever have to face.
The main thing I took from this, was: Don't debrief while on operation. But in that second I realized it, you said it on video! Realizing your mistakes makes you a better person (and pilot).
Great video and good tips! Condolences to you and your family for your loss. As a controller during OSH we do encounter quite a bit of unusual situations. Go-around are complicated because of what’s happening at the airport at that time. Hard to give 1 concrete procedure when it can change because of the traffic scenario. Reverting to the departure procedure was probably the best idea, at or below 1300 till you exit the delta. Welcome to Oshkosh! See you next year!
Thanks for the video Steve. I love your content and debriefs on your flights. This is so valuable for all pilots. I'm sorry for your loss, we'll be praying for you and your family. Fly safe my friend ✈️ 👍
Don’t be too hard on yourself. As a CFI one of the most common situational awareness items I see in pilots that gets neglected is pre-planning and briefing exactly where they’re going on a go around (minus other instructions). The other is truly planning takeoffs including where you’re going with power loss. Can just use it as you have, as a learning experience and add the briefings to your routine. Condolences on your loss. Never easy.
Thanks for making this. Hopefully you can influence next year’s NOTAM him because you’re not the only one that had a problem when the air traffic control said leave the pattern without further instruction
absolutely loved how calm and professional you were! give yourself some grace you did a fantastic job navigating through all that. i know I would have freaked out a bit haha.😅 also im so sorry for your loss!
The controller probably wasn't too mad at you, just operating at 200% workload. It's crazy how they get so many planes in and out of there without more accidents
Sorry to hear about your loss, Steve. Looking forward to meeting you at OSH and SimVenture. Two of us are flying in for the first time, with our Connecticut flying club’s (formerly Canadian) Mooney M20J.
Very stressful but well done on keeping your head and being responsive throughout. Echoing @Blancolirio, on flights like that think like a musician on a gig - let any perceived mistake go, the next note is the important one so don't let yourself be distracted from the tune !! Keep up the good work and the authenticity. I'm sorry for your loss - take care and be kind to yourself - everyone's grief is unique.
Wow I hadn’t realized just how stressful your arrival was last year. Really glad nothing truly bad happened and you came out of it alright. Hopefully this year goes a bit more smoothly for you.
Sorry for your loss. It’s hard to go into a departure with a wrong way Pilot. Just keep your eyes open for what happens and work your best for the flight out. I’m glad it did work out for you. You can’t plan everything.
Thanks. And it is true I’d have had to deviate a little to get around the wrong way guy, but it still would have worked a lot better to get back on runway heading and just fly the published departure procedure instead of improvise which is ultimately what I did 😬
Just clicked flight radar fisk arrival. Randomly saw and clicked an RV-14 on short final to touchdown. Turns out, it was you... Small world. You made it!
Thanks a lot for this video and debrief. I'm only a simpilot with X-Plane 12, but made it @ Vatventure 2024 a Oshkosh-Event on Vatsim mostly about 1-2 weeks earlier as the real event. Also a great possibility to excercise the ARR to KOSH during EAA. I loaded the actual KOSH Notam and worked it a week before the event. The Vatsim ATC makes here also an absolute great job. With my C172 it was real fun to fly this and well prepared it's possible to do it also solo. Yes I know in real life it's something else and much more difficult.
This is such great insight on what it’s like to fly into OSH. Great debrief on what happened. It’s all about how we deal with our mistakes under pressure. Thanks for sharing!
OMG, The ONLY time I flew into Airventure was back in the 1975. Back then, it was less than half of what the chaotic mess it is today! We were a flight of two, one of my Boy Scout Explorer advisors with three passengers in his Stinson 108, and me in the right seat of our C-150 (the other advisor/instructor in the left seat). You've also gotta remember that this was the era BEFORE headests were common in GA. All we had in our C-150 was the wingroot speaker above the left-seater's head! Talk about STRESS!
OSH Air Venture is a high density, high stress arrival environment for pilots and controllers, and you toss in a opposite direction lost pilot it can get real hairy real fast. I've worked OSH (2000-2004) but never had the opportunity to do fly the arrival. The controllers are usually much better with issuing instructions when things go wrong but in your situation they certainly weren't up to snuff. Thank you for sharing your experience and I hope the rest of the show is uneventful.
This is good info buddy. People keep asking if I will fly into Sun n Fun which is 20 mins away or go to Osh and I'm always like nah, not interested in getting into that pile up of junk and people. I know it's well staged but man to me it's a cluster I don't want anything to do with hah. I like to get to a party and leave whenever I'm bored, I just can't do that at these massive events. Keep up the good flying videos buddy!
Echo the condolences - truly tragic. Hope you and your family are coping and can push through and remember the good. Thanks much for all the pointers. Last flew to AV in 2000 and going this year, with a pilot buddy. We'll be following your advice. Thoughts on best time of day to arrive appreciated. Looks like time stamp on your TS overlay was 1330ish? Did you land and wait for them to clear? Are other times better for overall traffic?
Thanks for watching to the end 👊 As for times to arrive, it’s hard to say as weather creates bottle necks. That’s what happened to us - this was a super busy day that had a bunch of storms that made for some short windows to attempt the arrival. Generally speaking, if you can stage at an airport ~50 to 100 miles away and then watch ADS-B traffic for a slower time, or just plan for getting there super early in the morning.
There was so many things done wrong here that my heartrate was max during all of this. The notam explains a go around. All departures from the field to south, then over to insertion point. Clear and fully understood to NEVER turn left from 36, and not north. They had so many things hightlighted in their NOTAM that it appears they read the thing, but demonstrated they had not. Lives could have been lost here, because pilots are not ready for "anything" that could happen. He even mentions "missed approach" and clearly doesn't understand a go around, vs missed approach. This is a visual approach and if departures are to the right, before the tower, then 150 degrees at 1300 and above, then that is your default "go around" at OSH. All the tips he gave were facts from the NOTAM. At least the last tip he gave was a good one... practice using your home flight simulator, and PilotEdge, at SimVenture, the 4 day practice where no one gets killed. People died in 2023 at Oshkosh because of foolishness like this.
If you put in the notam that if you go around you’re sent all the way back you’re going to get people that will stick out landings and approaches they’re not happy with…. Needs to be some way they can get put into some other hold and get a slot in from a go around holding area
My Lesson Learned in the Long Ez is to fly the 135 Kts and 2300’ approach to FISK. Flying this approach avoids the slow flying aircraft till after FISK. Typically, the landing from the higher approach is 9/27. I have been flying the high approach for 25 years, after getting caught behind a Cherokee and getting so slow I experienced a canard stall buck. BE SAFE.
Oh yeah totally. Last year I finally gave up on the low slow arrival and did the high arrival - and it still took 2 tries + holding 😂 before I got past Fisk
@@StanfordJohnsey - The RV-14 can definitely fly the 90 knot procedure, but "easily"? No... It's not a speed I feel safe maneuvering if I need to make a sudden turn to avoid traffic (a real possibility while flying into AirVenture). And my oil temp will get well over 200 unless it is a cool day... So yes, the airplane can do it, but if I don't have to, I'd rather not. That said, I flew the slow approach this year (and got in on the first try, which was nice) after I saw a podcast where the FAA and EAA were really pushing the idea that you shouldn't fly the fast arrival unless you really can't do 90... And then I spoke to a senior controller on the grounds, that told me the opposite; He'd rather see an airplane that can easily do the 135 knot procedure just do it and stay safer flying well above stall speed. So if I go again next year, I plan to fly the fast arrival (I'll still have the power well back to do 135 knots).
I would think the main suggestion should be to not fly in on Saturday. Yes, be aware of approach and departure corridors but try to fly in on any day except for Saturday. Does anyone know what happened to that guy that flew the wrong direction?
I hope those touchscreens vibe will leave aviation soon.. I want to find the button, touch the button, feel the response and get the result. Works great in turbulence also. See how challenging is that with the touchscreen
Everything you can do with the touch interface can also easily be done with the knobs and buttons - but I've not had an issue with the touch interface having logged over 300 hours in this airplane - there are some well designed thumb and finger anchor points that do make the touch screens usable even in turbulence. (I'm referring to my specific set up here - can't comment on other manufacturers / configurations).
The chaos looks fun honestly. But I dig that sort of thing. I also fly most of my days below 500 feet for hours and hours, and transition through just about every airspace there is besides the SFRA over Washington. However, I don’t deal with THAT many other pilots all at once with vastly different skill levels and experience.
The best thing to do is fly in the week before the show, and leave the week after. In the middle of that you can sit back and watch all the craziness happen.
If I had the time, I’d avoid going during the busy weekend for sure… but each year I’m booked right up until then and don’t have a choice if I’m going to display the aircraft. It’s a struggle.
I like this one 😂 But in all seriousness, I do think most people do have the NOTAM on board… whether or not they’re able to accurately absorb and execute what it says is maybe an other discussion. This event is also approaching (or exceeding?) critical mass so that’s part of the problem.
@@FlightChops The first few times I flew into Airventure on Sunday afternoon it was busy but a non-event. The last few times it's been a bit worse. It flows fine when it flows but as soon as somebody groundloops or something else goes wrong the capacity of the system becomes evident. I'm going in on Friday this year to try and avoid the traffic. I wonder why they don't have another VFR arrival from the North and put all those airplanes on 9-27 and the Fisk arrival will be for 18-36 L/R. Treat it like two different airports.
My thoughts on the warbird arrival is that it is not appropriate for my aircraft. This is the start of the description for that procedure: "This procedure is restricted to highperformance turbojet, turboprop, and Warbird aircraft capable of cruising at 130 knots or greater. Slower Warbird aircraft shall use the VFR Arrival ..." I intend to stick with the high/fast Fisk arrival this time.
ATC’s panicked tone is raising stress levels and if things are really that hairy going into a fun event then the event needs to be rethought. Just because something can be done doesn’t mean it should be done.
Nothing wrong with a video debrief. Heck, I sometimes put my mistakes into my videos so I can look back and go “Ya, lets not do that that”. As for the “yelling”, I’d say they were giving an instruction to get you safely outta there and there’re under the pump.
Thanks yeah - and I understand they weren't exactly "yelling" at me... but it was easer to say that in the brief on screen text, than to word it more like "ATC urgently got my attention to correct my mistake" 😂
@@FlightChops Not true. FAA never talked to him in any way. No Brasher, no changes, no rules, anybody do anything you want at AirVenture. See my video that comes out Wednesday night (7/17/24) at 9:30 pm Eastern time where you can hear the FAA ATC guy in his own words (never before released actual interview) describe this incident and all the others.
In the event of a go-around Tower should divert all incoming on Fisk avenue, make them go back to start over. Then tell Fisk controllers to stop directing aircraft into 18/36 and have all aircraft forced to go around enter the pattern and land. Your experience clearly demonstrates how dangerous it can be to send aircraft all the way from the airport back out to the starting point. That should never happen. Clearly a failure on the part of planners and controllers.
This situation was far from ideal, but it would have worked to have the aircraft on the go around just fly the published departure procedure and then work their way back to the start of the line at the current initial transition waypoint.
This episode was actually a week late - I wanted to get out out 3 weeks before Osh so it was relevant and top of mind for people going this year. (This is also a review of the longer episode that I did already publish shortly after Osh last year that you missed, so I guess the strategy worked?) Can you explain to me what you think what was cut off the ending of the 20 minute long multi IFR episode?
People who fly to Air Venture need to know that they are NOT approaching an airport. It is a flying chess game. One wrong move and "CHECKMATE!!!" and you get yeeted out like an empty soda can. Do not expect normal air traffic. You need to study and rehearse the procedure notes like your life depends on it. And even then you have to be ready for anything. Just because you preparred doesn't mean that some other knucklehead didn't. Idiots fly to airshows too.
The arrivals at airventure are a bad joke. They treat our airplanes like toys. Most pilots don’t maneuver like the “controllers” have them do and not while being yelled at, rushed and at such a low level. They have absolutely no clue about a stabilized approach and I can’t believe there aren’t more accidents, mid airs and fatalities. It used to be neat to watch but now it’s actually terrifying.
First, I didn’t hear ATC “yell” at you-a little emphatic, yes, but not yell. Second, you guys talked to each other too much-and I think that made it more difficult for you. I’ve flown in with a non-pilot friend, a very low time pilot friend, an extremely experienced pilot friend, and by myself. Each time, there was no reason to talk, except when my friends would see a potential conflict with another aircraft. I have pretty good avionics, too, but I really think they should be ignored in favor of looking outside, and keeping quiet unless it’s really necessary. Or as my extremely experienced pilot friend suggested, “you fly the airplane, I’ll look out for other airplanes.” Honestly, although we had to circle Green Lake on that occasion, I don’t think either of us said more than a couple words until after we landed. I’ve had to go around, too, when the airplane in front of me would not take to the grass. I was alone, coming in on 36 left. On the go around, I was told to turn downwind “and we’ll get you in”, so I didn’t have to return to FISK. If he hadn’t told me, though, I was prepared to ask. Third, I didn’t get he impression that you had the NOTAM memorized, and it appeared that it was awkwardly sized. I always printed mine out (and had on my iPad, too), but in a convenient size for my airplane. And I literally memorized it each year. I hope I don’t sound too critical. It’s a high stress environment, but doing what you can to lower that stress goes a long way to enjoying the flight in. And back out again.
It's easier to describe it as "yelling at me" than to say "getting my attention a little emphatically" for the sake of engagement on social media :) No doubt we were not sterile enough - if you watch the whole video I directly addressed that in the voice over during our "improvised departure". (Mind you I did share the most intense parts of the flight and removed the slower paced sections with more dead air.) I actually did have the NOTAM well studied, and I even demonstrated that I had the depurate for 18 memorized, but that didn't matter as I hadn't briefed that I'd fly it if I went around with no clear instructions... so here we are debriefing the less than ideal situation that developed. Feedback is appreciated - that's what I've shared this for.
Go land at Fondulac if that was me. Period. Dot. Bad time to be in the train. Bad time to listen to flustered ATC. Or any of the 10 good nontower fields.
You did nothing wrong! There was no published procedure for the situation you experienced. Your experience is a great example of why the arrival system at OshKosh is UNSAFE. Controllers are telling pilots how to fly their airplanes, and that gets people killed EVERY YEAR. I stopped flying into OshKosh because it is NOT SAFE. During the largest airshow in the world, FAA regulations are not enforced as they are at every other airport in the U.S., there is no waiver allowing ATC to deviate from normal flight rules (but they deviate anyway which can be confusing for pilots), there are no procedures to follow when things go wrong, there is NO flight boss controlling airspace during the show. EAA AirVEnture is a train wreck. The pilot that deviated with the wrong-way landing received no violation, even though he was totally wrong, was not listening to the radio, and should have been violated because he put lots of lives at risk. Regulations = federal law. The FAA is not enforcing their own regs at OshKosh. People are KILLED every year because EAA is prioritizing revenue over safety.
It's not that bad. Sunday afternoon can be kinda crazy sometimes, but the procedure works pretty well and the vast majority of the pilots flying in do a great job. It only gets on RUclips when it's crazy. I've flown into the show many times and most of the time it was just another landing. I will be out practicing my 90kts and 1000' this weekend though. 🙂
Good Lord I wonder how much longer it'll be before the FAA clamps down on the airventure event. It is only a matter of time before there is going to be a serious incident there...
All I can say is some pilots are real stupid and should not have a license, that place is not safe to fly in to. We were in the fast lane and came up on a little Cessna going way under the minimum speed, now what. You are not supposed to use the radio or peel off the line but we were going to run into him. Luckily someone on the ground spotted the problem and made the Cessna pull out of line and go around to the slow lane. Needless to say we never went again.
Ever since learning of Airventure I've never even entertained the thought of going. All those planes of different types, especially the homebuilt experimentals, constantly coming and going in one tiny place is a disaster waiting to happen. Everything I've seen, ATC is completely overloaded. Not to mention you have no idea the condition of many of the planes and who's behind the stick....
It could be that the event is in 2 weeks and we're getting people ready for it? In the case of this one it's an important message to enhance safety and awareness... Or maybe it's just vacuous recycled content for clicks, offering no value - who's to say?
@@FlightChops obviously there was a lesson of value learned here. Just an observation I had of the mainstream aviation guys uploading ancient (by today’s standard) content. Didn’t know it was around the corner, seems more relevant then.
Not to be rude, but I feel like you were absolutely NOT clear enough in your briefing with Katie as to your expectations, and/or your expectations were not correct for the situation. She was talking over you and the controllers a LOT with unimportant chatter and that's just unacceptable in that sort of situation. Quite frankly, I would have straight up told her, "Shut up!! Unless there's something critically important to safety," in the plane, but I also would have set that expectation in our briefing on the ground.
It’s fair feedback, but this is just a few minutes of hours of us flying together… and it’s of course condensed down to the most stressful few minutes. I’m also not impressed with my own performances as far as how much I was feeling the need to debrief in real-time during a lot of that chaos. So yeah, I captured this for my own learning and saw the value in sharing it for others to see what could have been done differently / better.
Partially agreed. *Both* of them should've eliminated all extra commentary. Super sterile cockpit. Any words spoken should've been limited to identifying traffic or ATC comms. If the right seater is capable, she can quietly provide support and flip to the relevant pages for the arrival/departure instructions as she monitors their progress.
I'm typically the harshest critic of idiot youtube pilots, but you did nothing wrong here. The entire thing is a circus, I don't see at all how this is remotely appropriate or up to any safety standards that we expect in aviation. 1000 aircraft are not supposed to be in the same place at the same time, there is no technology or procedure that can make this happen safely. Controllers frantically screaming at aircraft without even knowing their tail numbers is a complete joke. I'm never participating. People have died and will die again. P.S. Very sorry about your loss.
Thanks for watching to the end, and your support is appreciated. No doubt this is a tough environment, and I am going to avoid going during busy times to avoid the craziness in future (unfortunately this year Michael's celebration of life has negated my going earlier, so I'm gonna be in that Sunday rat race one more time.) But I do feel there are things I could have done better here, and I'm sharing my pain points to try to help others avoid them.
I can assure you that all the aircraft on the very specific Fisk arrival path… were flying the Fisk arrival procedure. No one is using that airport during AirVenture for not AirVenture. It is what it is. So yes, “speed 90 please”.
Actually, it is the law. During Airventure there is a TFR over the airport and you are not allowed to fly in unless you follow the procedures in the NOTAM and the NOTAM very clearly states 90 kts for the lower Fisk arrival, which is what almost all VFR aircraft are supposed to fly. There is an exception if your airplane is not capable but even then you are required to use "maximum cruising speed" and it's suggested to fly in between 0700 and 0730 CDT.
Excellent Tip #3 (9:10) Be ready upon arrival to execute the departure procedure and know the altitudes beforehand.
The entire Notice is 32 pages long! Good time for CRM!
Steve- add a link to the Notice above. Jb.
Here's the notam/notice link, and I'll edit the description later to add it there too.
www.eaa.org/airventure/eaa-fly-in-flying-to-oshkosh/eaa-airventure-oshkosh-notam
1. Very sorry to hear about your loss.
2. Mad respect for your humility but I do think you might be being a little hard on yourself.
3. Good job keeping your head on. I had heard about this rumbling through the crowd last year at Oshkosh.
4. I really like you pointing out the difficulty of the initial merging into the conga line. For me that is traditionally the most stressful part.
See you at airventure. Fly safe!
Hey, thanks for watching to the end 👊
And I hear ya, but being hard on myself is kinda my brand 😂
Stop by IAC if we don't find each other elsewhere.
@@FlightChops Man, can I ever relate to that "hard on yourself" bit.
Most importantly, you kept flying the plane! 👍
With high workloads, pilots can neglect airspeed, forget to switch fuel tanks, forget landing gear, etc.
For sure yes.
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
Sorry to hear about your loss. Very sad that he left such a young family.
Thanks for watching to the end. And yes, it is gut wrenching.
@FlightChops I lost my brother in an accident many years ago when he was only 24. He had a wife and two year old, with another on the way. A hard hard time for everyone. I'm sure that you'll be holding everyone close.
I think you're being a little hard on yourself, Steve. ATC didn't yell at you, they gave you an instruction. Just because people know your voice and your callsign doesn't mean you're not allowed to make mistakes. Don't hold yourself to an unreasonably high standard
Appreciated. It’s honestly just embarrassing that I found myself in that position, and I wanted to share the pain for others to learn from 😂🤷👊
@@FlightChops And you are doing exactly what any professional pilot would do. Learning from it and doing better next time!
@@FlightChops We all learned something from this. My plane is coming in on Thursday before the show. I have a 2nd pilot on board, and we've already briefed the arrival, what we're doing, and what we will do on a wave off on final. We will execute the published VFR departure, head back to Fisk and try it again. Seems like the safest course of action.
What a tremendous learning tool. I agree with Chops being hard on himself. As a FF, I once heard from and older guy, I'm not yelling at you, I'm excitedly telling you what I need. Usually the more excited he told me, the more excited my movements were. Criticism can be great to learn from too if given correctly. Chops does well with this I think and his followers too. Like offering a similar feeling on the fire ground. Great job Chops! I know your arrival this year will be your redemption!!
@@FlightChopsit’s ironic, but someone asked Cathy and David about go arounds during the SimVenture Q&A and they agreed, follow the departure procedure. It was after the Saturday practice. I agree the notam should mention that- way too hard to figure that out in the moment. You outlined all the pressures that real pilots face on the approach, weather, dissimilar “formation”, situational awareness and operations in slow flight… wow. There’s always something more to brief, but great job!
I'm so sorry to hear from your brother, Steve. May his soul rest in peace. My condolences to all the family.
I can't think of anything I respect more than seeing the pilots I look up to, own a mistake and teach from it.
Sorry for your loss. This is a very honest video. I would make one comment on what I have seen here overall. Things often do go wrong in aviation. It can be very difficult to put that behind you and concentrate on what is happening now and what needs to happen in the next few seconds and minutes. Avoid the temptation to be distracted by re-hashing in your mind what has just gone wrong. Doing so detracts from your capacity to ensure that the recovery from the undesired state goes right. It happened, move on. There will be plenty of time to review the mistake on the ground over a coffee or something cold. Great job.
Thanks for watching to the end. 👍
And yes for sure, I cringed watching myself debrief with Katie while we were still in the thick of it… but it was good to have captured, and I’m happy to humbly share it for others to learn from.
Reminds me of the UK PFA rallies in the 1980s. Pilot trying to land A Beech Baron among dozens of cubs and similar. The tower told him "Sir, Your'e about number 43 in traffic. Land at your own discretion. He did, after 5 go rounds.
Sorry for your loss. And, thanks as always sharing these experiences.
Happy to share and thanks for watching to the end.
I Wasn't even in the cockpit but I was stressed watching!
We had an adventure last year too. We flew in Thursday morning, ended up getting turned back at or before Fisk 5 times, first two just to Green Lake, second two to Puckaway, then all the way back to Endeavor. When we landed and taxied to the south forty 😞, the lineup of planes waiting to leave was all the way back to the south fence! I swore I was done, never coming back......now I can't wait to fly in on Wednesday the 24th! 🙂
Thanks for sharing this video. It will help somebody. I had a similar experience two years ago at KOSH. I nearly wound up flying in the "red box" as well. Afterwards, I came to the same conclusion that you have... fly the departure procedure on a go-around. It seems obvious now but it was not obvious in the moment. Also, sorry to hear about your brother. I'll be praying for you guys. Godspeed.
Glad you found this one helpful, and thanks for watching to the end.
Nobody can really prepare for what happened; you were very deep in the eye of a perfect storm. You used all the tools at your disposal, including the blessing of a copilot to help disseminate the flood of unanticipated information coming at you. You were shoved into a nightmare and all the players did their best to cope; other pilots, controllers, even the guy that caused it all. I feel so blessed that I had two relatively smooth OSH arrivals in two years. I also made some mistakes that I was able to learn from after reviewing my own videos. Last year I had the same experience in the conga line, following two STOL aircraft that probably could have done 90 knots, but just didn't. I ended up breaking out of line and fortunately I had a large gap behind me so I circled around and got back in line long before any controllers were involved (yeah I know that's not the correct procedure but it was the wisest and safest course of action at the time so I took it). The only bit of advice I can offer: plan to arrive before noon on the Thursday before OSH starts; it's quite a bit easier then. That being said, you have a lot of good stuff to offer in this one and I hope many people can learn from it, including the controllers! This experience is hopefully the worst you'll ever have to face.
The main thing I took from this, was: Don't debrief while on operation. But in that second I realized it, you said it on video! Realizing your mistakes makes you a better person (and pilot).
Great video and good tips! Condolences to you and your family for your loss.
As a controller during OSH we do encounter quite a bit of unusual situations. Go-around are complicated because of what’s happening at the airport at that time. Hard to give 1 concrete procedure when it can change because of the traffic scenario.
Reverting to the departure procedure was probably the best idea, at or below 1300 till you exit the delta.
Welcome to Oshkosh! See you next year!
Excited to see you flying at SimVenture with us!
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Your humility and professionalism are inspiring. Sincere condolences on the loss of your loved one. Cheers!
Thanks for the video Steve. I love your content and debriefs on your flights. This is so valuable for all pilots. I'm sorry for your loss, we'll be praying for you and your family. Fly safe my friend ✈️ 👍
Appreciated 👊
Thank you for sharing this Steve. As usual, excellent real world content. My sincerest condolences for your loss.
Glad you enjoyed the raw realness of this one.
Don’t be too hard on yourself. As a CFI one of the most common situational awareness items I see in pilots that gets neglected is pre-planning and briefing exactly where they’re going on a go around (minus other instructions). The other is truly planning takeoffs including where you’re going with power loss.
Can just use it as you have, as a learning experience and add the briefings to your routine.
Condolences on your loss. Never easy.
Thanks!
Thanks for making this.
Hopefully you can influence next year’s NOTAM him because you’re not the only one that had a problem when the air traffic control said leave the pattern without further instruction
Steve: mad respect for not only being honest with yourself, but also making such a detailed explanation about it in public.
absolutely loved how calm and professional you were! give yourself some grace you did a fantastic job navigating through all that. i know I would have freaked out a bit haha.😅 also im so sorry for your loss!
Appreciated, and thanks for watching to the end. 👏
The controller probably wasn't too mad at you, just operating at 200% workload. It's crazy how they get so many planes in and out of there without more accidents
Agreed yes - the controllers were at capacity (or exceeding it) in this case.
I'm just frustrated I gave them an other thing to worry about.
Sorry to hear about your loss, Steve.
Looking forward to meeting you at OSH and SimVenture. Two of us are flying in for the first time, with our Connecticut flying club’s (formerly Canadian) Mooney M20J.
This was a wonderfully frank video. Thanks for posting. It shows what can happen out there - almost real time.
Very stressful but well done on keeping your head and being responsive throughout. Echoing @Blancolirio, on flights like that think like a musician on a gig - let any perceived mistake go, the next note is the important one so don't let yourself be distracted from the tune !! Keep up the good work and the authenticity. I'm sorry for your loss - take care and be kind to yourself - everyone's grief is unique.
I like the musician analogy.
And thanks yeah, it’s been a surreal and hard time adjusting to losing Michael.
Wow I hadn’t realized just how stressful your arrival was last year. Really glad nothing truly bad happened and you came out of it alright. Hopefully this year goes a bit more smoothly for you.
Yuuuup. It was brutal.
Sorry for your loss.
It’s hard to go into a departure with a wrong way Pilot. Just keep your eyes open for what happens and work your best for the flight out. I’m glad it did work out for you. You can’t plan everything.
Thanks. And it is true I’d have had to deviate a little to get around the wrong way guy, but it still would have worked a lot better to get back on runway heading and just fly the published departure procedure instead of improvise which is ultimately what I did 😬
Just clicked flight radar fisk arrival. Randomly saw and clicked an RV-14 on short final to touchdown. Turns out, it was you... Small world. You made it!
Thanks a lot for this video and debrief. I'm only a simpilot with X-Plane 12, but made it @ Vatventure 2024 a Oshkosh-Event on Vatsim mostly about 1-2 weeks earlier as the real event. Also a great possibility to excercise the ARR to KOSH during EAA.
I loaded the actual KOSH Notam and worked it a week before the event. The Vatsim ATC makes here also an absolute great job.
With my C172 it was real fun to fly this and well prepared it's possible to do it also solo. Yes I know in real life it's something else and much more difficult.
Solid self assessment video. Thank you for sharing and its a must watch for anyone coming to OSH.
This really looks stressful. Can´t wait to experience this the first time on my own. See you at AirVenture!
This is such great insight on what it’s like to fly into OSH. Great debrief on what happened. It’s all about how we deal with our mistakes under pressure. Thanks for sharing!
OMG, The ONLY time I flew into Airventure was back in the 1975. Back then, it was less than half of what the chaotic mess it is today!
We were a flight of two, one of my Boy Scout Explorer advisors with three passengers in his Stinson 108, and me in the right seat of our C-150 (the other advisor/instructor in the left seat). You've also gotta remember that this was the era BEFORE headests were common in GA. All we had in our C-150 was the wingroot speaker above the left-seater's head! Talk about STRESS!
OSH Air Venture is a high density, high stress arrival environment for pilots and controllers, and you toss in a opposite direction lost pilot it can get real hairy real fast. I've worked OSH (2000-2004) but never had the opportunity to do fly the arrival. The controllers are usually much better with issuing instructions when things go wrong but in your situation they certainly weren't up to snuff. Thank you for sharing your experience and I hope the rest of the show is uneventful.
This is good info buddy. People keep asking if I will fly into Sun n Fun which is 20 mins away or go to Osh and I'm always like nah, not interested in getting into that pile up of junk and people. I know it's well staged but man to me it's a cluster I don't want anything to do with hah. I like to get to a party and leave whenever I'm bored, I just can't do that at these massive events. Keep up the good flying videos buddy!
I am sorry to hear about your loss.
See you at OSH Steve!. Sorry for your loss!
Echo the condolences - truly tragic. Hope you and your family are coping and can push through and remember the good. Thanks much for all the pointers. Last flew to AV in 2000 and going this year, with a pilot buddy. We'll be following your advice. Thoughts on best time of day to arrive appreciated. Looks like time stamp on your TS overlay was 1330ish? Did you land and wait for them to clear? Are other times better for overall traffic?
Thanks for watching to the end 👊
As for times to arrive, it’s hard to say as weather creates bottle necks. That’s what happened to us - this was a super busy day that had a bunch of storms that made for some short windows to attempt the arrival. Generally speaking, if you can stage at an airport ~50 to 100 miles away and then watch ADS-B traffic for a slower time, or just plan for getting there super early in the morning.
@@FlightChops about what I figured. Thanks, and we'll swing by and visit you at the acro stand. Looking forward!
Sorry for your loss Sir.
Thanks, and I appreciate your watching to the end 👍
Sorry for your loss.
I also had to go around my first time flying into Airventure! It was much easier for me as they just had me join back into a downwind to land!
Yes, I think that’s how it normally goes.
There was so many things done wrong here that my heartrate was max during all of this. The notam explains a go around. All departures from the field to south, then over to insertion point. Clear and fully understood to NEVER turn left from 36, and not north. They had so many things hightlighted in their NOTAM that it appears they read the thing, but demonstrated they had not. Lives could have been lost here, because pilots are not ready for "anything" that could happen. He even mentions "missed approach" and clearly doesn't understand a go around, vs missed approach. This is a visual approach and if departures are to the right, before the tower, then 150 degrees at 1300 and above, then that is your default "go around" at OSH. All the tips he gave were facts from the NOTAM. At least the last tip he gave was a good one... practice using your home flight simulator, and PilotEdge, at SimVenture, the 4 day practice where no one gets killed. People died in 2023 at Oshkosh because of foolishness like this.
Excellent video. Thanks for sharing your lessons learned with us!
I be there this year flying from Newfoundland and camping out. Hope to see you there with CGA!
Stop by IAC!
@@FlightChops Will do for sure!
Why not spread out or limit traffic somewhat more than they do? Seems extreme what AirVenture attempts to do here…
If you put in the notam that if you go around you’re sent all the way back you’re going to get people that will stick out landings and approaches they’re not happy with…. Needs to be some way they can get put into some other hold and get a slot in from a go around holding area
My Lesson Learned in the Long Ez is to fly the 135 Kts and 2300’ approach to FISK. Flying this approach avoids the slow flying aircraft till after FISK. Typically, the landing from the higher approach is 9/27. I have been flying the high approach for 25 years, after getting caught behind a Cherokee and getting so slow I experienced a canard stall buck. BE SAFE.
Oh yeah totally. Last year I finally gave up on the low slow arrival and did the high arrival - and it still took 2 tries + holding 😂 before I got past Fisk
The RV-14 will easily fly the 90kt approach.
@@StanfordJohnsey - The RV-14 can definitely fly the 90 knot procedure, but "easily"? No... It's not a speed I feel safe maneuvering if I need to make a sudden turn to avoid traffic (a real possibility while flying into AirVenture). And my oil temp will get well over 200 unless it is a cool day... So yes, the airplane can do it, but if I don't have to, I'd rather not. That said, I flew the slow approach this year (and got in on the first try, which was nice) after I saw a podcast where the FAA and EAA were really pushing the idea that you shouldn't fly the fast arrival unless you really can't do 90... And then I spoke to a senior controller on the grounds, that told me the opposite; He'd rather see an airplane that can easily do the 135 knot procedure just do it and stay safer flying well above stall speed. So if I go again next year, I plan to fly the fast arrival (I'll still have the power well back to do 135 knots).
Had the seemingly annual crash at AirVenture yesterday.
Соболезную. Даже до 50 не дожил, на 10 лет старше меня... Спасибо за видосы, много полезной информации!
Appreciated, yeah it’s brutal - he left so much behind.
Armless pilot? You might be able to work the flight controls, but how do you work all the comms and flight deck controls?
I'm really wondering how the hell you can end up landing in opposite direction at Osh
I would think the main suggestion should be to not fly in on Saturday. Yes, be aware of approach and departure corridors but try to fly in on any day except for Saturday. Does anyone know what happened to that guy that flew the wrong direction?
What action if any was given to the Bonaza pilot for going the wrong way? or is this an acceptable part of the processs.
Can't wait to see you there!
Steve sorry for your family's loss
Thanks for watching to the end 🙏🏻
I hope those touchscreens vibe will leave aviation soon.. I want to find the button, touch the button, feel the response and get the result. Works great in turbulence also.
See how challenging is that with the touchscreen
Everything you can do with the touch interface can also easily be done with the knobs and buttons - but I've not had an issue with the touch interface having logged over 300 hours in this airplane - there are some well designed thumb and finger anchor points that do make the touch screens usable even in turbulence.
(I'm referring to my specific set up here - can't comment on other manufacturers / configurations).
The chaos looks fun honestly. But I dig that sort of thing. I also fly most of my days below 500 feet for hours and hours, and transition through just about every airspace there is besides the SFRA over Washington.
However, I don’t deal with THAT many other pilots all at once with vastly different skill levels and experience.
Yeah... this level of chaos is not fun 😬
@@FlightChops I can definitely believe it. I still wanna go just for the chaos 😂
The best thing to do is fly in the week before the show, and leave the week after. In the middle of that you can sit back and watch all the craziness happen.
If I had the time, I’d avoid going during the busy weekend for sure… but each year I’m booked right up until then and don’t have a choice if I’m going to display the aircraft. It’s a struggle.
If I was king, I'd have a $500 landing fee at Oshkosh, discounted to zero if you have a copy of the NOTAM.
I like this one 😂
But in all seriousness, I do think most people do have the NOTAM on board… whether or not they’re able to accurately absorb and execute what it says is maybe an other discussion. This event is also approaching (or exceeding?) critical mass so that’s part of the problem.
@@FlightChops The first few times I flew into Airventure on Sunday afternoon it was busy but a non-event. The last few times it's been a bit worse. It flows fine when it flows but as soon as somebody groundloops or something else goes wrong the capacity of the system becomes evident. I'm going in on Friday this year to try and avoid the traffic. I wonder why they don't have another VFR arrival from the North and put all those airplanes on 9-27 and the Fisk arrival will be for 18-36 L/R. Treat it like two different airports.
Hi steve! In the original video i had suggested taking the “warbird” arrival. Have you given any thought to that?
My thoughts on the warbird arrival is that it is not appropriate for my aircraft. This is the start of the description for that procedure:
"This procedure is restricted to highperformance turbojet, turboprop, and
Warbird aircraft capable of cruising at 130
knots or greater. Slower Warbird aircraft
shall use the VFR Arrival ..."
I intend to stick with the high/fast Fisk arrival this time.
ATC’s panicked tone is raising stress levels and if things are really that hairy going into a fun event then the event needs to be rethought. Just because something can be done doesn’t mean it should be done.
90kts is slow? You got a jet?
Did you watch this video?
Nothing wrong with a video debrief. Heck, I sometimes put my mistakes into my videos so I can look back and go “Ya, lets not do that that”. As for the “yelling”, I’d say they were giving an instruction to get you safely outta there and there’re under the pump.
Thanks yeah - and I understand they weren't exactly "yelling" at me... but it was easer to say that in the brief on screen text, than to word it more like "ATC urgently got my attention to correct my mistake" 😂
Man, these events seem very dangerous to fly into at times...
So what’s the story with the opposite direction landing traffic?
He got confused, it ended safely and there was a meeting with the FAA to get him sorted out.
@@FlightChops Not true. FAA never talked to him in any way. No Brasher, no changes, no rules, anybody do anything you want at AirVenture. See my video that comes out Wednesday night (7/17/24) at 9:30 pm Eastern time where you can hear the FAA ATC guy in his own words (never before released actual interview) describe this incident and all the others.
Stressfull? Just a little.... Too scary.
Was this last year's arrival?
Yes.
In the event of a go-around Tower should divert all incoming on Fisk avenue, make them go back to start over. Then tell Fisk controllers to stop directing aircraft into 18/36 and have all aircraft forced to go around enter the pattern and land. Your experience clearly demonstrates how dangerous it can be to send aircraft all the way from the airport back out to the starting point. That should never happen. Clearly a failure on the part of planners and controllers.
This situation was far from ideal, but it would have worked to have the aircraft on the go around just fly the published departure procedure and then work their way back to the start of the line at the current initial transition waypoint.
Houston trip eventually? hehe
Eventually, yes 😂
Is this video a year late?! First you post the other multi IFR video with the ending cut off, then this one a year after the fact? Cmon Steve!
This episode was actually a week late - I wanted to get out out 3 weeks before Osh so it was relevant and top of mind for people going this year. (This is also a review of the longer episode that I did already publish shortly after Osh last year that you missed, so I guess the strategy worked?)
Can you explain to me what you think what was cut off the ending of the 20 minute long multi IFR episode?
Hmm, thinkin' I might bring my plane in on a truck!
I cant believe more people dont die getting into that show. No way i'd fly into that place
People who fly to Air Venture need to know that they are NOT approaching an airport. It is a flying chess game. One wrong move and "CHECKMATE!!!" and you get yeeted out like an empty soda can. Do not expect normal air traffic. You need to study and rehearse the procedure notes like your life depends on it. And even then you have to be ready for anything. Just because you preparred doesn't mean that some other knucklehead didn't. Idiots fly to airshows too.
The arrivals at airventure are a bad joke. They treat our airplanes like toys. Most pilots don’t maneuver like the “controllers” have them do and not while being yelled at, rushed and at such a low level.
They have absolutely no clue about a stabilized approach and I can’t believe there aren’t more accidents, mid airs and fatalities.
It used to be neat to watch but now it’s actually terrifying.
IDK. Negotiating chaos shouldn't be a point of pride in aviation.
Agreed.
First, I didn’t hear ATC “yell” at you-a little emphatic, yes, but not yell.
Second, you guys talked to each other too much-and I think that made it more difficult for you. I’ve flown in with a non-pilot friend, a very low time pilot friend, an extremely experienced pilot friend, and by myself. Each time, there was no reason to talk, except when my friends would see a potential conflict with another aircraft. I have pretty good avionics, too, but I really think they should be ignored in favor of looking outside, and keeping quiet unless it’s really necessary. Or as my extremely experienced pilot friend suggested, “you fly the airplane, I’ll look out for other airplanes.” Honestly, although we had to circle Green Lake on that occasion, I don’t think either of us said more than a couple words until after we landed.
I’ve had to go around, too, when the airplane in front of me would not take to the grass. I was alone, coming in on 36 left. On the go around, I was told to turn downwind “and we’ll get you in”, so I didn’t have to return to FISK. If he hadn’t told me, though, I was prepared to ask.
Third, I didn’t get he impression that you had the NOTAM memorized, and it appeared that it was awkwardly sized. I always printed mine out (and had on my iPad, too), but in a convenient size for my airplane. And I literally memorized it each year.
I hope I don’t sound too critical. It’s a high stress environment, but doing what you can to lower that stress goes a long way to enjoying the flight in. And back out again.
It's easier to describe it as "yelling at me" than to say "getting my attention a little emphatically" for the sake of engagement on social media :)
No doubt we were not sterile enough - if you watch the whole video I directly addressed that in the voice over during our "improvised departure". (Mind you I did share the most intense parts of the flight and removed the slower paced sections with more dead air.)
I actually did have the NOTAM well studied, and I even demonstrated that I had the depurate for 18 memorized, but that didn't matter as I hadn't briefed that I'd fly it if I went around with no clear instructions... so here we are debriefing the less than ideal situation that developed.
Feedback is appreciated - that's what I've shared this for.
That would be mind numbing
Can confirm it was 😂
@@FlightChops I dunno... according to the video your mind was still working; just overloaded.
Go land at Fondulac if that was me. Period. Dot. Bad time to be in the train. Bad time to listen to flustered ATC.
Or any of the 10 good nontower fields.
Hopefully the Bonanza pilot feels embarrassed 😳
You did nothing wrong! There was no published procedure for the situation you experienced. Your experience is a great example of why the arrival system at OshKosh is UNSAFE. Controllers are telling pilots how to fly their airplanes, and that gets people killed EVERY YEAR. I stopped flying into OshKosh because it is NOT SAFE. During the largest airshow in the world, FAA regulations are not enforced as they are at every other airport in the U.S., there is no waiver allowing ATC to deviate from normal flight rules (but they deviate anyway which can be confusing for pilots), there are no procedures to follow when things go wrong, there is NO flight boss controlling airspace during the show. EAA AirVEnture is a train wreck. The pilot that deviated with the wrong-way landing received no violation, even though he was totally wrong, was not listening to the radio, and should have been violated because he put lots of lives at risk. Regulations = federal law. The FAA is not enforcing their own regs at OshKosh. People are KILLED every year because EAA is prioritizing revenue over safety.
What a cluster F
Way too crazy and stressful. Totally not worth it. Air Shows are Air Shows, not worth getting into a possible midair.
This sounds like a clown show I’ll never try to fly into Oshkosh. Sorry about your brother.
It's not that bad. Sunday afternoon can be kinda crazy sometimes, but the procedure works pretty well and the vast majority of the pilots flying in do a great job. It only gets on RUclips when it's crazy. I've flown into the show many times and most of the time it was just another landing. I will be out practicing my 90kts and 1000' this weekend though. 🙂
They’re going to have a midair incident. You aren’t exactly green either as a pilot OR going into OshKosh. It needs some updates.
Good Lord I wonder how much longer it'll be before the FAA clamps down on the airventure event. It is only a matter of time before there is going to be a serious incident there...
This is all really obvious if you just read the notam…
All I can say is some pilots are real stupid and should not have a license, that place is not safe to fly in to. We were in the fast lane and came up on a little Cessna going way under the minimum speed, now what. You are not supposed to use the radio or peel off the line but we were going to run into him. Luckily someone on the ground spotted the problem and made the Cessna pull out of line and go around to the slow lane. Needless to say we never went again.
Ever since learning of Airventure I've never even entertained the thought of going. All those planes of different types, especially the homebuilt experimentals, constantly coming and going in one tiny place is a disaster waiting to happen. Everything I've seen, ATC is completely overloaded.
Not to mention you have no idea the condition of many of the planes and who's behind the stick....
All these youtubers still uploading EAA vids how long ago was it?
It could be that the event is in 2 weeks and we're getting people ready for it? In the case of this one it's an important message to enhance safety and awareness...
Or maybe it's just vacuous recycled content for clicks, offering no value - who's to say?
@@FlightChops obviously there was a lesson of value learned here. Just an observation I had of the mainstream aviation guys uploading ancient (by today’s standard) content. Didn’t know it was around the corner, seems more relevant then.
@@FlightChops lol best response ever
@@lukebelvin4900 you do realise that the movies and tv shows you watch are also recorded months or years before you are watching them?
@@blegi1245 thanks bubba 🤫
Not to be rude, but I feel like you were absolutely NOT clear enough in your briefing with Katie as to your expectations, and/or your expectations were not correct for the situation. She was talking over you and the controllers a LOT with unimportant chatter and that's just unacceptable in that sort of situation. Quite frankly, I would have straight up told her, "Shut up!! Unless there's something critically important to safety," in the plane, but I also would have set that expectation in our briefing on the ground.
It’s fair feedback, but this is just a few minutes of hours of us flying together… and it’s of course condensed down to the most stressful few minutes. I’m also not impressed with my own performances as far as how much I was feeling the need to debrief in real-time during a lot of that chaos.
So yeah, I captured this for my own learning and saw the value in sharing it for others to see what could have been done differently / better.
Partially agreed. *Both* of them should've eliminated all extra commentary. Super sterile cockpit. Any words spoken should've been limited to identifying traffic or ATC comms. If the right seater is capable, she can quietly provide support and flip to the relevant pages for the arrival/departure instructions as she monitors their progress.
Co-pilot needs some CRM practice
Agreed. In the preflight they needed to discuss how to support the PIC without degrading SA, being a distraction, etc.
No thanks I’ll stay on the ground
Got just a wee bit more chances of staying alive
I'm typically the harshest critic of idiot youtube pilots, but you did nothing wrong here. The entire thing is a circus, I don't see at all how this is remotely appropriate or up to any safety standards that we expect in aviation. 1000 aircraft are not supposed to be in the same place at the same time, there is no technology or procedure that can make this happen safely. Controllers frantically screaming at aircraft without even knowing their tail numbers is a complete joke. I'm never participating. People have died and will die again.
P.S. Very sorry about your loss.
Thanks for watching to the end, and your support is appreciated.
No doubt this is a tough environment, and I am going to avoid going during busy times to avoid the craziness in future (unfortunately this year Michael's celebration of life has negated my going earlier, so I'm gonna be in that Sunday rat race one more time.)
But I do feel there are things I could have done better here, and I'm sharing my pain points to try to help others avoid them.
Speed 90 pls 😂😂 it’s not law there’s a million reasons someone else might need to use the airport. All just as important as yours
I can assure you that all the aircraft on the very specific Fisk arrival path… were flying the Fisk arrival procedure. No one is using that airport during AirVenture for not AirVenture. It is what it is. So yes, “speed 90 please”.
Actually, it is the law. During Airventure there is a TFR over the airport and you are not allowed to fly in unless you follow the procedures in the NOTAM and the NOTAM very clearly states 90 kts for the lower Fisk arrival, which is what almost all VFR aircraft are supposed to fly. There is an exception if your airplane is not capable but even then you are required to use "maximum cruising speed" and it's suggested to fly in between 0700 and 0730 CDT.
You are dangerous.
If you’re going to make an accusation like that, please provide receipts.
I think iceman didn’t finish the quote Mav…. 😃