My thoughts on white glue and plywood
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- Let's talk about plywood and white glue and their application possibilities in repairing and making instruments.
Do you like my content and want to support making more? Buy me a coffe, using the link below!
buymeacoffee.com/maestrokimon
Visit my shop on Etsy: t2m.io/kUb47gZ2
Visit my links page: t2m.io/CSrnv6Ox
Follow me:
Facebook.com/mstr.kimon
maestro.kimon
maestrokimon.com
My Gear:
SONY HXR-NX80
Canon SX60HS
Rode VideoMic Pro
Rode SmartLav+
Rode WirelessGO
Mistral 10.1"
Vegas Pro
In our shop, we don't use hide glue anymore. Instead of white glue, we use garrett wade wood glue. It has the strongest bond. A violin came in with a completely smashed in top plate, and we were able to repair it all at once. After 72 hours, it was stronger than before it broke. Also, we use fish glue. International violin has a good product. If it is supposed to be able to be removed or replaced, we use fish glue. If it isn't supposed to move (like cracked plates and ribs) we use the garrett wade. Both do not need to be heated, so there's no fear of separation of older glue. Try the garrett wade if you get a chance. I won't use anything else on violins, cellos, and basses. I do use the titebond on my cigar box guitars. For that application, it works wonderfully. Thank you for your thoughts.
100% agree with using a modern glue to repair cracks/seams that should never open. I'm not sure about the reinforcements with that glue, but you make a good point that others will assess the repair based on traditional methods. They probably shouldn't do that, but people are people.
I think most luthiers consider any repairs done should be reversible & hide glue allows that. Obviously grafts & sound post patches can't be returned to original wood, but if the patch fails (it shouldn't if done properly) then it could be redone if necessary without having to carve it out again (yeah, extreme example). Unfortunately "cracks/seams that should never open" can open again at some point in the future & it is much easier to repair if the old glue can be removed, hence the reason to stick with hide glue.
There's an American luthier on RUclips who mostly deals with bluegrass instruments which includes the occasional violin/fiddle. He makes the same argument as you do that is Stradivari was alive today he would be using modern synthetic wood glue. He says the exact same thing that Stradivari was a true innovator and that he wouldn't pass up the tougher glue for at least some of the joints.
Now, this guy also takes it a step further and uses it for everything because in his experience it's just as easy to take apart as hide glue. I'm not sure I agree with that but he says in his experience it takes just as much heat, moisture, and pressure to separate as hide glue does. The only difference is that hide glue will re-set and glue the joint back after drying, white glue doesn't, so you have to be sure to remove it with scraping before regluing the joint. That part I do believe is true; white glue is reversible like hide glue, but only hide glue will still act like a glue when it dries again.
People also have to understand that with white glue there are different types, some you should never consider for certain jobs. The Titebond III for example is completely irreversible, so the only place it makes sense to use it is for gluing up strips of purfling/binding (especially since you'll be bending it with heat later and don't want it to come apart then) or for the top or back joint when they are two pieces. Everything that you might want to come apart should be Titebond original if you're going to use white glue.
I would argue that even if the white glue is just as reversible as he claims, the hide glue lasts a very long time, and if it does fail in 70 years then it probably should be taken into a luthier anyways. Almost a way of forcing the instrument in for a checkup.
I think any claims about the glue affecting sound are just crazy, unless you're using it as a ground of course in which case I wouldn't ever consider white glue, but people get very superstitious about that so I just stay far away from those debates.
that guy also glues the joints with white glue and despite multiple people explaining to him what is wrong with this and his subsequent arguments, that american guy continues his ways. what maestro Kimon is saying however makes a lot more sense
A luthier in Belgium (Stijn Deurinck) promoted on the topic of stringed instruments made of modern materials ( hennep / glass / epoxy ...) The instruments sound great, but people have prejudice, or are afraid of looking forward. Great job maestro, saying what need to be said. Have an amazing 2022!
Tim, not Stijn Deurinck!
The main issue with modern materials IMO is the reperability over time. What do you do if you have a big dent on a violin top made of compound material ? Like laminated wood and carbon fiber hold together with epoxy ? The advantage with wood and hide glue IMO is the ability to graft material where pieces are missing, reglue opened joints, and so on.
That is what I also say. You have to use the different materials and glue accordingly.
Very honest video :). Its had to please all the arm chair experts. Unfortunately, Many luthiers take great pride in pointing out the flaws in other luthiers work. Its a easy of putting themselves on a pedestal and making the customer see that they are the superior luthier who should be given all their business.. showing your work on youtube opens you up to criticism and you deal with it bravely and concisely. Good job
Thank you for your kind feedback!
As always, it easier to comment on someone else's work than doing it yourself!!! 😉
Have a good one!
@@maestrokimon I'm sorry if I am coming across as being critical & doing what is "easier to comment on someone else's work than doing it yourself!!!", but my only real concern, as you expected anyhow, is the use of white glue at all. Not only are some cheap instruments made with it where it is obvious the glue is creeping where the ribs have moved in the glue joints to the plates (because the timber used hasn't been aged very long), but because we had an old guy that thought he knew enough about violins, opened them & replaced bass bars (roughly) made out of soft 'western red cedar' & then whittled down the same for the sound post (again, not well fitted) & wondered why his violins were soft & nasally. Unfortunately I have had to follow up some of his instruments he butchered (he wasn't careful at gluing the belly back, allowing the fingerboard to drop) where I had to try & clean out the PVA glue from the cracks that were poorly glued, but worse, it was a nightmare opening the violins in the first place because of the PVA glue. He also used the same comment about not needing to remove the neck again & used epoxy resin there. Thankfully heating with a hair dryer did soften it enough to allow removal. Having said all that, I do appreciate all the work & videos you have done. As always, seeing another's work, anybody that is a thinker will discover some useful methods or come up with methods they believe can be better.
Thanks for all your videos & I will continue to watch & appreciate them but will also try to refrain from any comments deemed to be critical. 🙂
@@rossthefiddler5890: Ross, I wouldn't go that far. Open discourse is what it is all about
Everyone has their own ideas. Let's hear 'em. 😁😁
@@rossthefiddler5890: PS, If the ribs are slipping in the glue, that would indicate too much glue and poor or no clamping.
If the joints are well clamped, to squeeze out the excess glue and kept clamped, until the glue is dry, there would be no slippage. You mentioned these are cheap instruments. Very little time is spent on cheap instruments.
I love your videos! They are all clear, analytical but amusing and educational at the same time. You are an excellent maker and repair expert and i like the fact that you are transparent and honest in your ideas and thoughts
Thank you so much for your kind words Petro. You know it means a lo to me.
Very insightful, as always. I'm foremost a pragmatist, and so what is most practical for the luthier, the player, and the instrument is what should come first, but also, it's a good thing to think of how many years an instrument will last and what player or luthier will have it in the next 20, 50, 100 years. One would hope that in the future, a competent luthier may understand the decision to go with plywood or certain synthetic glues instead of hide glue, and that future technologies will make repairs even easier. It is, of course, also very important to retain the traditional methods, if only for reference, but as time and techniques advance, perhaps we can develop methods and materials that offer more options/qualities. Even trees, arguably, are different now versus 500 years ago, and are of course dependent on growing conditions and location. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Maestro! I hope you had a happy Christmas!
Hi Meghann! That is my way of thinking too. I don;t want to be limited only by tradition, there must be some sense too! Everything changes, let's keep the good things of the past and add the good things of the pressent. Enjoy the holidays!!
Thank you for sharing!
I really like Titebond glue ,I have repaired guitar with it ,repaired a brace that came loose ,the guitar was damaged again breaking loose 2 main braces ,the brace i previously repaired did not came apart,but I have never used hyde glue so cant compare the 2 ,the new damaged I repaired including cracks and so far no separations at all and confident they wont separate ,thanks for this video Maestro Kimon and like that you use it and know when to use titebond
My comment is, if you're repairing a student instrument then use white glue if you must, but don't be irresponsible & use it on an old & especially valuable instrument. For one, as you mentioned, white glue (PVA) is more 'elastic' & that is where it shouldn't be used in instruments like violins & cellos because of the tensions & strains within a stringed instrument as the glue joins 'creep' over time & why it is another reason I think using it for a centre join is also a bad idea, considering how thin the plates are (violin back centre 4.5mm & bouts 2.5mm & belly as thin as 2.4mm) where there isn't much surface area with glue. Stick to using hide glue. BTW, centre joins usually only fail because they weren't accurately made in the first place, or experienced some time in extreme humidity etc. & that is when the rest of the instrument starts to separate too. I do agree with using 'super glue' to repair cracks & chips in ebony & bows etc, although again, not on valuable bows though.
I agree. Sometime white glue is best; other times hide glue. Also, the thin plywood provides a lot of stability. For high end instruments, I go with hide glue and spruce cleats because that is what people want.
Strad made his cellos with linen strips across the wood grain on the ribs inside & those cellos where they have remained (& not removed by well intentioned repairers) the ribs are generally not cracked whereas those with them removed have experienced radial cracks along the grain. What ever method is used it should be reversible, hence the necessity to use hide glue.
@@rossthefiddler5890: If Strad, as you call him, had used Titebond (original), for his linen reinforcements, they
would not dry rot and fall apart, not to be replaced, by someone who does not understand their value.
@@zapa1pnt Strad's cellos with the linen still in place on the ribs have stood the test of time, but the ones other repairers 'in their wisdom' had removed it developed linear creaks (along the grain) in the ribs.
@@rossthefiddler5890: "other repairers 'in their wisdom' had removed"
Oh, yeah, sorry. Somehow I managed to miss or misinterpret that.
Thank you for sharing.
You are welcome!
TITEBOND WHITE GLUE IS A CLEAN SEPARATION AND IN TROPICS WHITE GLUE MAY BE USED WITH PUMUS DUST MIXTURE FOR GLOBAL USE FOR ME ANYWAY. GREAT CLEAR INFORMATION. THANKX
I hav e "PONAL Weißleim Wasserfest" (white glue water resistant) in my shop. I already asked myself wether it can be used for repairing cracks. Thank you for giving the answer.
By the way, I heard rumors that rabbit hide glue stays more elastic after drying.
I also thought of using thin carbon fibre enforced sheet pellets for crack enforcements. It is lighter than wood and much stronger.
Thanks for sharing! Aren't carbon fibre enforced sheet pellets expensieve?
I completely agree that reopening/repairing cracks with the hide glue makes it easier to do in the future. However white glue can be cheaper and stronger. Hide glue on the outside for cracks/etc is a must, wwhite glue on the inside is not a big deal unless you are glueing the plates back together.
Excellent
You’re right! 👍🏻
Thank you!
The yellow titebond dries very britlle as opposed to 'white' wood glue. That is why we use it in guitarmaking.
You are right: to join the top and back titebond is the right choice.
Definitely agreed with all points you mentioned. Thank you for your honest videos.
Thank you for your kind feedback!
I use 3 kinds of glue for my instruments, hide, bone and rabbit. For strongest joints like the neck or plates I use rabbit as it's bonding strength is much better and it is also very elastic. Perfect for durable joints that moves with tension. For regular strong joints like ribs to the cornerblocks, back plate to ribs, bass bar etc, I use hide glue. Which is strong and elastic. For less strong bonds that may need to be re-opened in future like the top to ribs or fingerboard I use bone glue, since its a bit weaker and more brittle, It is perfect for future repairs.
Parts like the top and fingerboard should always be glued a tad weaker thinking of future openings. That way the restorer would be able to open the seams easily without damaging the wood.
It depends for the cracks, if it is a very cheap student instrument and the customer has a tight budget, I also use titebond. It is fast, easy to work, strong and does the job. For quality instruments I still mainly use hide glue, or sometimes rabbit glue depending on the case. But never bone glue. For the cleats I prefer to use wood. Never liked cloths. Parchment shrinks and deforms the wood. I would love to try plywood, but it is impossible to find it that in in my country. The thinnest I could find is 1,5mm and that is already about the regular wood cleat thickness.
Interesting approach! There is definitely a strong point about using different strength glue according to the part that you want to join. In which country do you leave? you have to look for "airplane plywood" used for model (scale) aeroplanes.
@@maestrokimon Thanks, I'm from Turkey. Looked for airplane plywood to but no luck. It seems finding plywood thinner than 1,5mm is impossible here.
Can you send me an e-mail? maybe we can arrange something together.
info@maestrokimon.com
@@maestrokimon ok, I will, thanks!
For valuable instrument repairs I recommend studying (although some methods have been improved on since it was written) "Violin Restoration: A Manual for Violin Makers" by Hans Weisshaar and Margaret Shipman.
Ross, I'm Not picking on you, just following the subject matter. 😁
I looked up that book. WoW, you need a lucrative, established lutherie practice, afford the book. Then it's kinda pointless. Oi!
I was able to get it on an inter library loan for free :)
Though I can see your point with mated cedar and maple joints for the top and back, as they rarely ever require reworking or repairs, the fish and hide glues have long been obsolete after the archival community started using B-72. This compound of crystal and acetone can be made to suit nearly any purpose; being completely clear, entirely stable, and resoluvated later to effect repairs. Yes, the magic of chemistry does have its advents, and B-72 is definitely a workable solution for your antique recipes from three-hundred years.
One can't use acetone to separate glue in violins, unless you love redoing the varnish around the crack each time. Sorry, but musical instruments are not furniture.
i think you make a strong case and i tend to agree with you.....
Good to hear, thank you.
Merry Christmas
Thank you!
Very Interesting! One comment / question; My experience is mostly furniture with marquetry and inlays. I use hide or bone glue, depending on the circumstances, because I believe animal glues stick very well to original animal glues. But, am I correct in assuming that modern PVA based glues do not?
So, in the case of a new crack, the PVA would work well, but how is one to be absolutely certain that a crack is really fresh, or an extension of an older and previously repaired crack (or joint)? Pardon the clumsy question, but I am very new to lutherie, and struggling with the distinctions to other forms of woodwork.
'That crack' may also extend over time & require more repairing. Using white glue just makes it difficult for proper repairing later on. I've had to follow up on instruments that had been glued with PVA where the glue had filled a badly glued crack which made it extremely difficult to clean out & to glue it properly afterwards.
@@rossthefiddler5890 Thank You for sharing your experience.
@@rossthefiddler5890: The experience you had there was of a bad repair. Possibly one poorly clamped or not at all.
If it was done well, you would not have had to re-do it.
So, it was not a matter of the glue used, it was just poor workmanship.
@@zapa1pnt It was definitely poor workmanship but also the top should never be glued on with white glue anyhow. The top has to be easily removable for any necessary maintenance.
Ik ben het er helemaal mee eens. Niets is zo irritant als een achterblad dat splijt als je het aan het uithollen bent. Sinds gebruik van witte lijm heb ik dat nooit meer gehad.
Als je warme lijm gebruikt luister het ook heel nou hoe veel water er in zit. Als de lijm te dun is kan die makkelijker los laten. Witte lijm is consistenter daar in.
you know im on the fence about modern glue and hide glue . i agree with you that there are places that modern glue is better hands down but on the top plate or bottom plate hide glue should be a thought . but then again with a little heat regular white glue will come apart maybe not as easy but will still come apart . and hands down if the masters had titebond they would have used it . back then they were making violins for the rich and they would have made them to last . you will never make me think other wise . and there is the issue of secrets why have them unless you dont want others to know what your doing . so i get the repair thing but at the same time say its just a little over done if you ask me . if i made a violin it would all be glued with titebond cause i really dont care if people fix it or not . i would want to know that the glue i used was water tight and strong . and if made right and took care of it should never need to be repaired . and by the time it did i can say that the titebond will let go . and if you can not get it to maybe you are not good enough to fix said violin . so glue it up buddy and dont worry what others say its your work not theres .
We don't have to throw away tradicional methods to adopt new technologies. We can incorporate them if they are worth it
Like using band saws & bench sanders etc. Strad & others would have used them. Super glue to repair bows & ebony can be OK in the right place, but I don't agree with using any white glue for repairs. Just use it for the paper packing under leather grips on bows etc.
I have a crack through the A hole of my peg box of my 100+ year old violin. I want to use white glue / Tite Bond on this crack and clamp it. I'm sure it would be unbreakable once it sets. What do you think? Once the glue is set I plan on installing Perfection geared tuners on it.
Do you use Titebond green, that is water resistant or only the red one?
I liked the idea of using modeling plywood for cello and double bass rib cracks reinforcement.
Titebond III ( green) should only be used on things you do Not want to come apart Ever.
TITEBOND WOOD GLUE EASILY SEPARATES AND IS A SUPERIOUR FIT AND MORE GLOBALLY USEFUL AS IT ACCOMMODATES FOR EASY MIX OF PUMUS DUST TO AID IN ADHERRING UNDER TROPICAL HIGH HUMIDITY
Just to add to what you say (That I totally agree with, since I use hide glue AND modern glues on my instruments too) :
TITEBOND is not a white glue. It's an aliphatic resin. Very similar to white PVA glues but it dries harder IMO and is kinda easy to reverse with heat. You still have to sand back to bare wood to reglue afterwards.
Thank you for the extra information, Julien!
Titebond original is good on plate joints. Titebond 3 leaves a stain. Don’t ask how I know 🤦♂️
Heb je nog voorkeur voor Bison of Titebond? Of is dat gelijkwaardig?
Ik ben TiteBond gewent dus ga daar voor. Ook de verpakking vindt ik beter!
Ik gebruik Bison voor reparaties van klavecimbels (ook de zangbodem) en dat werkt en klinkt prima.
Your logic seems sound to me, but I wonder, say a client brought you a Stradivari violin… would you still use the white glue to fix the crack? I would imagine that for the most valuable instruments, you would want everything you do to it to be reversible. Please correct me if I’m wrong!
Every material and method has to be used with sense...
That would be like using Rustoleum paints, to touch up the Mona Lisa. 🤪🤪😵💫😵💫
It ain't gonna happen.
Hello Maestro, happy new year and thanks för this video, i have a question about the sandpapper, where you buying a big size of sandpapper aruond 50x100 cm or smothing like this. thanks...
Hello Aras. My best wishes to you to. I bought mine here: www.axminstertools.com/eu/hermes-abrasive-belt-660-x-1-220mm-x-80-grit-200927?glCountry=NL&glCurrency=EUR
how did you stick the circles plywood to the clamps to prevent from falling off ?
With a small drop of superglue that dries in 5 seconds. But a very small drop!
While I understand your rationale for using pva glue I think you forget or oversee a few things. First of all hide glue has been around for hundreds of years so we know when it will fail, how it will fail, why and how to fix it. PVA glue has only been in use since the 1950's so we do not really know how long it lasts. It will certainly not last eternally so to call it a one repair for all times is not correct. We also know some disadvantages such as the difficulty to separate pieces that were glued up the wrong way and has to be corrected or the difficuly to clean it off once it has dried.
That said I also think it is ok to use PVA glue for "permanent" joins on instruments of low value providing you can be 100% sure you will get the pieces into the correct position the first time. Because there will not be a second time.
Maestro I LARGE CASE TO SEE WHAT I WRITE. THNX
That's called 'shouting' in script. Not generally appreciated.
@@rossthefiddler5890 DON'T READ THIS THEN, IF YOU DONT LIKE LARGE CASING. LATER DUDE
As long as the comments are kind and not offensive to anyone it fine with me! Have a good one Michael!
We have to deal with FRAUD by Cremona with the fake Hellier, Messiah and more defrauding by that city and at Ashmolean Museums we have the FRAUD data
@@sandyblond20: In this instance, the poster obviously has a vision impairment. Cut him some slack.
hello
Hi there! Enjoy the holidays!
Sept.-11-2023✝️
Maestro! Stai diventando un po' troppo dipendente dagli sponsor. Tra un po' sembrerai un Carosello pubblicitario!
Quale sponsor? A questo momento non c'é nessun sponsor sui miei filmati! A chi pensi che sono dipendente?
@@maestrokimon I think he meant Tight Bond😂
I think so too. Let it be clear, TighBond is not a sponsor! I always mention the sponsor.
Da Google Translate:
Gli sponsor sono una cosa molto necessaria, su RUclips. Senza di loro, i manifesti non potrebbero continuare, a fare quello che fanno. Per coloro che non hanno un milione o più di abbonati, ne ricavano davvero poco.
@@maestrokimon: As a matter of fact, if you had a sponsor and did not
disclose it, you could get into a lot of trouble with RUclips.