@seanv3997 I'm showing this conversation to Ray when I get to Southern Assault. The dice tower used to make a regular appearance in all my Battle Reports. I joked it was more famous on the show than I was - so it was the real star. It was laser cut for me by a friend and friend of the show, who'd made his own prior to us meeting. Unfortunately, the charts are proprietary, so this means we can't mass produce them without some kinda licensing deal. I have had one made for the main moderator of Battletech International, but that's the only "spare" one I've ever been in possession of. My original one broke after 3 years of interstate travel, so I use magnetic dice trays now from Fortress Miniatures & Games. I have spoken to Ray about this both online and in person: "whose pole do I gotta grease to get this dice tower made?" It is, apparently, a process - and not a short one, to listen to it being told. All this to say you can't get one yet. Sorry.
Awesome video Tuck! Entering buildings and CF (Construction Factor) can also be confusing. Line of sight rules... man the cause of so many arguments. Ok two things. First: I had to simplify LOS for my own sanity. Rulers, laser pointers, laser levelers, tape measures... ugh. There were times when determining LOS (especially back with yard sticks) took most of the turn. LOS in my system works like this. The attacker counts the shortest possible path to the target. This should always result in two or three paths. If there is any difference in the paths, the defender chooses which path is used then obligated to use the same path if they return fire. This pathing system makes things so much easier and faster with no additional equipment required. With my card rules it makes your card not being drawn first a little less disheartening. Also, partial cover is only for legs. At one point you could have right side or left side partial cover but that seems to have been removed in TW and I threw it out too. Second: Who deployed this HISS tanks? Whoever was playing CORBA in BattleTech is both an asshole and the most epic human on the planet! My helmet off to you, well done. COBRA!
@BattleBound i will have to find you some STUNs, Crimson Attack Tanks, and SNAKE battle armor. Put up some FANG VTOLs. Paint up some foot infantry. Lol.
The whole "higher elevations defeat partial cover" really emphasized that high ground for your long-range direct shooters. Especially since it also would defeat full cover for a vehicle or infantry.
@OnisanT is correct. With Vehicles & Infantry adjacent to a LVL 1 terrain feature (or higher), LOS will be blocked if the line traces over it. This is because the terrain feature will be declared "intervening" due to the target unit being adjacent to it.
@raithnor6007 Not to my mind - when you take into account how large a hex is (30m), you'd be surprised how much room there is for things like tanks and infantry to move around and, well...hide. Tanks are low to the ground and people are notoriously small at 'mech level height. It's not as easy to hide a Warhammer in the same 30m space as it is to move a 50 ton Vedette medium tank, or a Galleon. Other tanks like the Schrek would be harder to hide thusly - but they benefit from the height rules, rising one Level off the ground. Best way I can think of to explain it until I make a video about it. 💁♂️
4:10 Do remember that this only applies to that specific pair of units in question. You can claim cover against all units except the ones you're going to shoot at.
Correct, though this is implied - I did mention that LOS is only checked when someone is shooting. As each shot is declared, LOS is checked, and these choices can be made over again (if still applicable).
Good video. I love to see Geo-Hex setups. Since the Army Painter Target Lock Laser Line came out we've had a lot less LOS issues but the continuing controversies are elevation and road movement. These have less of a community consensus because terrain is often made to be more realistic but doesn't perfectly match the hexes. Better explained-if your using Geo-Hex or a similar more realistic terrain with angled elevation changes then how do you decide what level your at? I like to play it as once you're on an angled grade you are on the next higher level and a hex is defined as being higher if 3 dots out of 4 are on the grade. Even then you have to explain to the 40K converts that the 3D terrain is only representative and not exact so you have to use TW elevation rules. Laser dots won't show what's really hidden behind terrain because if the hexes were the same scale as the mechs the hexes would each have to be over 4 inches across! Also Geo-Hex is 5/8s of an inch tall when at mech scale a level should be real close to an inch. Most of the custom stuff I've seem is at 3/4 inch. Another conundrum is how to handle road movement for roads that don't follow exactly with the hexes but resemble a real world pattern. Making them match the hexes is often impractical as well as plain unrealistic. Do you just allow a free half turn to travel with the road and have them face the same direction at the end of movement or what? I'd really like to hear your as well as others opinions and solutions for these. I've started multiple discussion threads on forums over the years to come up with a community accepted standard but usually get very few helpful responses. Sorry for the long one- I'm usually the groups "Terrain Guy ."
Many thanks! I'm from SoCal originally (born in Escondido). I'm currently located in Oklahoma, but I routinely travel to SoCal for convention gaming at StrategiCon.
When you're playing on hex maps the key thing to remember for intervening is equal to or greater height anywhere along the LOS between both units, equal to or higher than the attacker adjacent to the attacker, and the same with the defender. Almost Good Variant recently made a good illustrative video on LOS and intervening terrain: ruclips.net/video/nHoqsbGu53I/видео.html
You did. Your video is very informative. It also goes into LOS along the line between hexes. I like Almost goods establishing shots of defender and attacker. It would be worthwhile to watch both videos back-to-back. My earlier comment may overemphasize already well-established points. I am lucky enough to use 3D hex terrain almost exclusively. Some years ago, I had a misunderstanding with another player. One mech was at partial cover 4 or 5 levels above the other mech with a distance of 3 hexes. The miniatures couldn't "see" each other, and he thought that the game worked off of true LOS instead of LOS rules set forth in Total Warfare.
@Metal_Carnage What do you think of "true LOS"? I myself prefer the cold, hard, and analytical rules to what the opinion is of someone else in RE: what they can physically "see", especially when they have a vested interest in me not being able to see the target. This is one of the reasons I'm not as into Alpha Strike as some others - it runs off of True LOS (most of the time), and that leaves too much room for chicanery, IMHO. I'd rather play on a level field where everyone has the same opportunities, which are there for you to figure out in the rules. This is why I included the bit about partial cover in a building, it's a thing I guarantee you 98% of players don't know, but can be an incredible advantage for someone who DID. I appreciate you watching and I appreciate your commentary as well. 😊
@@BattleBound I dislike true LOS for hex maps and hex terrain. A hex represents 30 meters, and an elevation is 6 meters. unless you're using heroscape tiles with Battleforce minis, or want to play on 4" hexes, the results for "true" line of sight are skewed. the LOS diagraming first introduced in the tactical handbook would be a better method of determining what a unit can "see." Diagraming would be time consuming. the Rules in TW are an easily understandable, quick and accurate enough. I've never been a fan of miniatures rules for classic. I find them fiddly and arbitrary. Alpha Strike was written as a miniatures game, so true LOS is baked in. I think it works well enough. The writers at least had the forethought to say that if the defender can't see enough of the attacker, there's no LOS.
In the original rules (flat hexmaps) it was way easier... Behind a hex with height 1, or inside a water or wood hex partial cover. Behind a wood hex or a height 2 hex no LOS. 😊
"If you're driving your tanks into water, I don't wanna be on your tank crew." - Made soda spew out my nose! Especially the face!
lol 😆.
Man, I am always in awe of the table spreads around here. Super useful video, and what a visual treat.
The dice tower with the tables is brilliant.
I keep telling Catalyst...
Possible to link where you found that dice tower?
@seanv3997 I'm showing this conversation to Ray when I get to Southern Assault. The dice tower used to make a regular appearance in all my Battle Reports.
I joked it was more famous on the show than I was - so it was the real star. It was laser cut for me by a friend and friend of the show, who'd made his own prior to us meeting.
Unfortunately, the charts are proprietary, so this means we can't mass produce them without some kinda licensing deal. I have had one made for the main moderator of Battletech International, but that's the only "spare" one I've ever been in possession of. My original one broke after 3 years of interstate travel, so I use magnetic dice trays now from Fortress Miniatures & Games.
I have spoken to Ray about this both online and in person: "whose pole do I gotta grease to get this dice tower made?" It is, apparently, a process - and not a short one, to listen to it being told.
All this to say you can't get one yet. Sorry.
lol thanks for taking time to share that. I wish you luck on that journey! Great video, thanks!
Awesome video Tuck! Entering buildings and CF (Construction Factor) can also be confusing. Line of sight rules... man the cause of so many arguments.
Ok two things.
First:
I had to simplify LOS for my own sanity. Rulers, laser pointers, laser levelers, tape measures... ugh. There were times when determining LOS (especially back with yard sticks) took most of the turn. LOS in my system works like this. The attacker counts the shortest possible path to the target. This should always result in two or three paths. If there is any difference in the paths, the defender chooses which path is used then obligated to use the same path if they return fire. This pathing system makes things so much easier and faster with no additional equipment required. With my card rules it makes your card not being drawn first a little less disheartening. Also, partial cover is only for legs. At one point you could have right side or left side partial cover but that seems to have been removed in TW and I threw it out too.
Second:
Who deployed this HISS tanks? Whoever was playing CORBA in BattleTech is both an asshole and the most epic human on the planet! My helmet off to you, well done. COBRA!
The HISS tanks were fielded by me.
They represented the Colossal Omnipresent Brotherhood of Reprehensible Amorals - or COBRA for short.
@BattleBound i will have to find you some STUNs, Crimson Attack Tanks, and SNAKE battle armor. Put up some FANG VTOLs. Paint up some foot infantry. Lol.
Love me some LOS advantages!
The whole "higher elevations defeat partial cover" really emphasized that high ground for your long-range direct shooters. Especially since it also would defeat full cover for a vehicle or infantry.
It does not defeat full cover. The video covers that at 8:00, if an adjacent hill is the same height hot higher, there is no LOS.
@OnisanT is correct. With Vehicles & Infantry adjacent to a LVL 1 terrain feature (or higher), LOS will be blocked if the line traces over it. This is because the terrain feature will be declared "intervening" due to the target unit being adjacent to it.
Which is odd from the stand point of: "Battlemech behind hill can have its feet shot at if the attack comes from a higher elevation."
@raithnor6007 Not to my mind - when you take into account how large a hex is (30m), you'd be surprised how much room there is for things like tanks and infantry to move around and, well...hide. Tanks are low to the ground and people are notoriously small at 'mech level height.
It's not as easy to hide a Warhammer in the same 30m space as it is to move a 50 ton Vedette medium tank, or a Galleon. Other tanks like the Schrek would be harder to hide thusly - but they benefit from the height rules, rising one Level off the ground. Best way I can think of to explain it until I make a video about it. 💁♂️
Thanks for the video and WOW HISS tanks!
A player from Florida gave them to me!
4:10 Do remember that this only applies to that specific pair of units in question. You can claim cover against all units except the ones you're going to shoot at.
Correct, though this is implied - I did mention that LOS is only checked when someone is shooting. As each shot is declared, LOS is checked, and these choices can be made over again (if still applicable).
Good video. I love to see Geo-Hex setups.
Since the Army Painter Target Lock Laser Line came out we've had a lot less
LOS issues but the continuing controversies are elevation and road movement.
These have less of a community consensus because terrain is often made
to be more realistic but doesn't perfectly match the hexes.
Better explained-if your using Geo-Hex or a similar more realistic terrain with angled
elevation changes then how do you decide what level your at?
I like to play it as once you're on an angled grade you are on the next higher level
and a hex is defined as being higher if 3 dots out of 4 are on the grade.
Even then you have to explain to the 40K converts that the 3D terrain is only
representative and not exact so you have to use TW elevation rules. Laser dots
won't show what's really hidden behind terrain because if the hexes were the same
scale as the mechs the hexes would each have to be over 4 inches across!
Also Geo-Hex is 5/8s of an inch tall when at mech scale a level should be
real close to an inch. Most of the custom stuff I've seem is at 3/4 inch.
Another conundrum is how to handle road movement for roads that don't follow
exactly with the hexes but resemble a real world pattern. Making them match
the hexes is often impractical as well as plain unrealistic.
Do you just allow a free half turn to travel with the road and have them face the
same direction at the end of movement or what?
I'd really like to hear your as well as others opinions and solutions for these.
I've started multiple discussion threads on forums over the years to come up
with a community accepted standard but usually get very few helpful responses.
Sorry for the long one- I'm usually the groups "Terrain Guy ."
I will endeavor to take a closer look at these soon!
I am in SoCal, where are you? I like that you take the rules seriously.
Many thanks! I'm from SoCal originally (born in Escondido). I'm currently located in Oklahoma, but I routinely travel to SoCal for convention gaming at StrategiCon.
Nice indi reference
Good eye! I remember seeing that in the theaters when it was new, and we laughed when the dude said "poorly" lol.
@@BattleBound we still use both he choose... poorly and wisely as pop culture references
I suffered through the commercials on the video in hopes you'd get some mazuma.
Thanks for the support, man.
Dude, line of sight on the board is confusing. I still mess up lol. - Dan
I have feelings? I'm offended.
That means I made you feel something!
When you're playing on hex maps the key thing to remember for intervening is equal to or greater height anywhere along the LOS between both units, equal to or higher than the attacker adjacent to the attacker, and the same with the defender.
Almost Good Variant recently made a good illustrative video on LOS and intervening terrain: ruclips.net/video/nHoqsbGu53I/видео.html
I, uh ... said all that stuff?
You did. Your video is very informative. It also goes into LOS along the line between hexes. I like Almost goods establishing shots of defender and attacker. It would be worthwhile to watch both videos back-to-back.
My earlier comment may overemphasize already well-established points. I am lucky enough to use 3D hex terrain almost exclusively. Some years ago, I had a misunderstanding with another player. One mech was at partial cover 4 or 5 levels above the other mech with a distance of 3 hexes. The miniatures couldn't "see" each other, and he thought that the game worked off of true LOS instead of LOS rules set forth in Total Warfare.
@Metal_Carnage What do you think of "true LOS"? I myself prefer the cold, hard, and analytical rules to what the opinion is of someone else in RE: what they can physically "see", especially when they have a vested interest in me not being able to see the target. This is one of the reasons I'm not as into Alpha Strike as some others - it runs off of True LOS (most of the time), and that leaves too much room for chicanery, IMHO. I'd rather play on a level field where everyone has the same opportunities, which are there for you to figure out in the rules. This is why I included the bit about partial cover in a building, it's a thing I guarantee you 98% of players don't know, but can be an incredible advantage for someone who DID.
I appreciate you watching and I appreciate your commentary as well. 😊
@@BattleBound I dislike true LOS for hex maps and hex terrain. A hex represents 30 meters, and an elevation is 6 meters. unless you're using heroscape tiles with Battleforce minis, or want to play on 4" hexes, the results for "true" line of sight are skewed. the LOS diagraming first introduced in the tactical handbook would be a better method of determining what a unit can "see." Diagraming would be time consuming. the Rules in TW are an easily understandable, quick and accurate enough. I've never been a fan of miniatures rules for classic. I find them fiddly and arbitrary.
Alpha Strike was written as a miniatures game, so true LOS is baked in. I think it works well enough. The writers at least had the forethought to say that if the defender can't see enough of the attacker, there's no LOS.
In the original rules (flat hexmaps) it was way easier... Behind a hex with height 1, or inside a water or wood hex partial cover. Behind a wood hex or a height 2 hex no LOS. 😊
Wasn't it 3 hexes of light woods or heavy woods + woods that blocked LOS?
I played on the original hex maps, as well. Los disputes still happened lol. Especially with the "center line" thing.