Is DC20 Really the Successor to DnD? - A TTRPG Review in full
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
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#dc20 #dnd #dungeonsanddragons #ttrpg #pathfinder2e
There'll be a DC20 conversion guide if you don't wanna leave your 5e stuff behind. 💜
So with stamina points, each martial class regains stamina in different ways during combat. For example a Barbarian regains stamina by either dealing or receiving a Heavy Hit. A fighter regains stamina by performing a maneuver. Monks, hitting with their punches. I really like this system.
Yeah it seems pretty cool. And with already having a bunch of moves and maneuvers that ANYONE can do as a base is dope 🔥
My concern is that a DM will need to manage that for their baddies and each baddie could have different ways to regain stamina. Hopefully there is a simpler system for the GM.
@@alanthomasgramont As I understand it, stamina is only for players. Monsters/enemies will have much simpler mechanics.
@@alanthomasgramont just like in DnD and pathfinder, you’re not going to have a class for every enemy, just a statblock.
@@alanthomasgramont There is, the enemies have simplified actions on the stats block. That doesn't preclude the DM from adding more complicated options or using those maneuvers, but by default it's simplified, and the includes the weapon attacks
D&D has WAY more point systems, they just don’t call them points. Instead of mana points, you have 5 first level spell points, 4 second level spell points, 4 third level spell points, etc. Hit dice are just poorly named rest points. Battle master fighters have their own point system for their abilities, sorcerers have sorcery points, monks have Ki points. Almost every class has abilities limited to a number of uses per day, or, in other words, a number of points to spend on that particular ability. There are dozens of other point systems that are unique to various classes and subclasses, or even granted by a feat.
In DC20, everyone has rest points, action points and grit points, in addition to stamina points for martials and mana points for casters. 4 well defined pools of points to manage that are consistent between classes. Classes utilize the common point systems in unique ways instead of everything having its own dedicated system.
That said, referring to everything as these points, those points and the other points does feel pretty redundant. Honestly, I think it would actually help a lot to take inspiration from all of D&D’s point systems and just not call them points. You might have 4 stamina, 2 mana, 3 grit and 4 actions and suddenly it doesn’t feel as overwhelming to have so many different points.
Yeah exactly! I’m aware that DnD has as many if not more systems but yeah having them not all called points makes it easier to compartmentalize in my mind.
The words 'mastery' and 'points' need to be mostly removed from this game.
18:22 Actually only Martial classes get maneuvers. Spellcasters can only get maneuvers by multi-classing into a martial
Well, guess I misread that! Thanks for the catch!
Always good to see Knucklebone's in the comments no matter where I go x)
@@King_Hodop Always good to see you too mate
The classes are some of the most important part my guy
@@an_impatientGM did another video on them!
Awesome. 🙂👍🏻 Thank you for sharing. I would like to know your opinions on the Classes. Can you please make a video about Classes too? Thank you very much. 🙂
Sure! Might take me a little more time but I’ll try and throw a video up ASAP!
Thanks for the comment! 💜
In regard to disliking ADV/DisADV, one of the biggest reasons that I and many others like DC20 is because of the way that it ties into the action economy of the game.
The Multiple Check Penalty would mean a lot less if there was a cap of 1 Disadv, because of the frequent sources of ADV in this game. It'd be like "ok lemme get this target prone and then functionally ignore MCP always."
Stacking ADV / DisADV also feels better when you get a situation where you have like four or even five sources of Advantage against a target, and then they dodge and you're like "well then what the hell was all of that setup for." Sure, five ADV might be a niche situation, but I can't tell you the number of times I as both a player and DM I've felt kinda cheated at how easily any amount of ADV can be cancelled.
But more important than all of that is this: You can spend Action Points to give yourself Advantage. And that is HUUUGE!!! Like, the amount of times where a player has been like "I'm going to spend all FOUR of my Action Points for 4 ADV (diminishing returns) because I can't let this fail." My ally is dying, or the NPC has almost been talked down, or that Goblin had better not sound that alarm, etc. The ability to give emphasis to your action causes it to have a lot more narrative weight.
I do admit that tracking ADV can get tricky at times, but more often than not I've found it does get higher than +3 or -2, so it's not as much mental gymnastics as it may initially seem.
I can see why some people like it, it lets you put more emphasis on really trying to succeed that final blow or whatever it may be. I just disagree, that’s all. 😊 less math is one of the reasons I like the non stacking version of this. I can see why it might work well in DC20, though I don’t think it’s necessary. The problem becomes “why is my character at so many disadvantages” and then if that is the case, you’re having to spend resources on buffing up 1 ability rather than trying more interesting things with your other action points. Might end up feeling like it’s GM vs Player mentality too if the GM just starts listing things that are giving you disadvantage all the time. I dunno, just doesn’t feel smooth.
Fair point, but I've found that the hype of building D20 pools and everyone across the table watching the pool get bigger or remind you of things tends to be the majority of cases. It's also SIGNIFICANTLY faster than rolling for damage.
Tangential to that, it also avoids the outright terrible moments where you roll a crit and then all 1s for damage. Since damage and hits are rolled at the same time, you're still getting variability between turns without the bad feels of rolling low on damage. Rolling high on damage does feel nice, but so does rolling high on a D20. Makes those 16s, 17s, 18s a lot more exciting.
That said, to each their own, and enjoy your 5e games!
@@King_Hodop yeah, I think the damage dice missing would just take getting used to. That said, in 5e can do the MAX crit homebrew rule to solve the dice situation. Where you do the maximum damage on the original die and roll 1 extra for the crit die.
@@CriticalMits tru
@@CriticalMits I can see why, in theory, the stacking feels like more math/complexity. I have to say, in practice, from playing the game, it's anything but - there hasn't really been a time in my DC20 play sessions where the ADV/DISADV stacking got so convoluted I couldn't keep track or found it cumbersome to add up. I think that's partly due to the overall design, where, outside player opportunities to change up ADV/DISADV on their checks, there isn't much that's actually added stacking DISAD's on a player. At least, in my playthroughs. It's possible it could get much later on in level progression. But so far, I haven't seen the stacking de-incentivizing players from making use of action points to diversify their turns.
I understand the drive of wanting to get a video out while the topic is hot, but you should definitely actually playtest the system and then do a second video. Its super cheap to get into and a lot of fun. I have run several one-shots and have one on going campaign in DC20. There is a small learning curve coming from 5e but all my players have had a blast, and couldn't wait to play more.
Here are a couple of responses to parts of your review. Please don't take any of this harshly, just bringing up some counters for thought.
~ Homogeny of attack stat from Prim modifier - this happens in 5e also with most players putting there high stat into what their attacks are based on. Now some may not, but that can also happen in DC20 if a player balances stats instead of min-maxing. The Prime modifier represents you experience as an adventure and capability in combat.
~ Mastery system - There are 4 types of mastery's, not really that complicated. The reason the word mastery is repeated throughout the section with each type is for rules clarity. So when someone uses CTRL-F to find skills its clear that it falls under mastery and not prime modifier.
-This is a preference thing but i prefer DC20 mastery to 5e Prof. Why should the Fighter who hasn't done anything with Animal
Handling since level 2 suddenly get better at it just because they leveled up. With Mastery the players have to make choices
at certain levels to increase skills.
~ d20 rolls - don't think whether or not you could slot it into 5e is a basis for if the system is good. Now I have implemented a lot of DC20 into my current 5e games, but some things don't quite fit. This is where my preference is slowly pulling me away from 5e.
~Manuevers/ability bloat - only martials get them standard, and they don't get all of them. easy enough to write down the 4 you pick.
~ Damage rolls - I was of similar thought at first, but then quickly realized I didn't really miss it. Your d20 roll to hit is your damage roll, and with that you will never have the bad feeling from rolling high to hit, and then rolling minimal damage. ie attack with sword that does 2 dmg vs goblin with 12 defense - you roll total of 12 well you just hit and do 2 dmg, or you roll high with total of 22 and now do 4 dmg. This can go even higher if you roll a nat 20 too, that's an extra 2 dmg. You roll high, you do more damage. It Feels Good!
~ side note - not rolling for dmg isn't based off of the LOW HP, that came after. You can do similar in 5e with higher dmg and HP.
Fighter attack is Greatsword 2d6 + 3 (STR) : att roll just hits = 8 dmg, 5 over AC = 11 dmg, 10 over AC =15
~ lots of points - This isn't hard at all to track on a good ol pen and paper sheet. I feel like this is getting jumbled in your head kind of like the mastery system. Much easier to keep straight on paper. Not all the diff points will be tracked constantly, and not all players will have all of the types.
Martial wont have Mana points, and Caster wont have Stamina points.
Also you track most of these in 5e as well:
Action points = action, move, bonus action, reaction
Mana points = spell slots
stamina points = martial short rest abilities
Rest points = Hit dice
Grit points - ok no equivalent in 5e, but I feel like this is a con against 5e for not having more for CHA outside of just roleplay.
edit: fixed typos
I think a lot of what you’re saying valid. And thanks so much for the input!
I think you’re right in saying it’s probably getting jumbled in my head but that’s kinda what I mean when I say it’s confusing. It didn’t make sense right away and I had to read it a couple of times simply because the word mastery was used so often.
The points being named different things actually helps even if there are just as many in 5e. I see what you’re saying though that not all classes will have access to all of them and so it’s not as much of a concern.
Yeah I talk more about the damage roll later in the video and I’m sure a lot of the game mechanics are just something to get used to with a new system.
I like to the look and feel of DC20! Seems pretty cool! But it’s not a game changer for me. That’s all. This is an opinion piece after all 😉
This does look good, gives me some ideas for skills. I think I imagined the combined spell casting different to what it is. Really looks well worth a read!!!
Yeah definitely head to the link, download the free alpha rules PDF and have a read! It has some cool rules that are pretty easy to chuck into 5E or pathfinder or whatever you prefer!
How does the length of the round affect anything?? Sorry for the silly question.
Not silly at all! In DnD 5e, rounds are shorter and typically when you cast a spell that lasts 1min, that’s 10 rounds of combat, which is basically the whole combat usually. When the time is doubled per round this means that 1min spell duration might actually run out! Which might make the combat more interesting when you know your spells might not last the whole time and you have to make more meaningful choices. Rather than just set-and-forget type game play.
But, if its 10 rounds, who cares about the round time length! Haha, i think I don't see how time and rounds are related. Unless you actually time that 1 min?? Anyway, thanks so much for the response.
@@eoris12 yeah so 1 round in 5E is 6 seconds. It’s just a math thing really but it’s more about scaling the numbers to make combats more potent and interesting. And because so many spells last 1min, just makes it more interesting.
@@eoris12 The round length determines how many rounds = 1 minute
D&D 5e 1 round is 6 seconds so it takes 10 rounds to pass 1 minute
DC20 1 round is 12 seconds, so it takes 5 rounds to pass 1 minute
So that 1 minute effect wont always last the whole combat in DC20, but probably will in D&D 5e.
I like most of the changes but these are my thoughts after listening to you. I agree that the mastery sys feels silly at times someone using CHA to shoot a bow feels weird. I love condition stacking personally but I understand why you don't as it would slow the game. I like stacking ADV & DisADV but it could be done better maybe you always roll 2 dice but then +/- the stack of ADV. (3 stack of advantage you roll 2 dice take higher roll & +1 to it).
Thanks for the comment! Yeah I think I just feel the way I do because I havent actually playtested it. Maybe if I did it wouldnt be as bad as I think but theres always the initial pushback in my mind that it will take more time. And sometimes, most of the time, slowing things down pulls players out of immersion.
Straight from the Alpha "Your Prime Modifier represents your overall experience and prowess as an adventurer." So its not that you're using CHA to shoot, your highest attribute is just used to express your combat ability. Thematically your PC isn't very nimble or good at balancing, but you know how to hit the mark when the adrenaline start pumping.
@@martinbowyer7906 yeah I understand this. But it feels weird that you can throw around a big axe or something and wield it in combat even if you didn’t have a large might stat. Feels off. That’s all.
@CriticalMits Might is still a requirement if you want to use bigger weapons like the greataxe. There is an alternate rule where you just always max your prime stat so that you have the freedom to make a more generalist character & I think it solves the "how does Cha make me good with a weapon" argument but it also advised against this for gameplay purposes. Players are more likely to have epic moments if they specialize versus if everyone is OK at stuff, no one is great. I personally like this rule and plan on adding it so that I feel free to make the character I want without feeling like I'm nerfing myself if I don't max a single stat.
@@pallygoat7150 I’m still of the opinion that it’s ok to be not great at 1 thing and be pretty good at 2. In 5e you can take the standard array and get 16 in two stats at level1. Usually one is put in a physical stat (dex for attacks or ac, str, or con for HP) and another in a mental stat (wis for perception/insight, int or cha for being charming) and I think that’s good enough.
Having only 4 stats just means you have a more meaningful choice.
🥳❤️👍🏿
I’m on a quest to collect all the houserules on RUclips - you mentioned you might use some of what’s in this system at your table - would you ever consider making a video about the house rules you use?
Oh yeah I would! It’s on a long list of videos to make 😉 I’ll see if I can bump it up the list a little 😆
@@CriticalMits great - looking forward to seeing it 🎊
The Help Dice don't decay for every one you receive, they decay for every one you give.
A player could hypothetically receive 3d8, 3d6, and 3d4 from his party members. It's less optimal because 1 AP is worth more damage than that, but it is possible.
Oh see, that’s something that wasn’t clear enough when I read it. Nice catch. 👍
I like exhaustion being deadly at some point. It makes sense. At some point you're just out of energy and your organs can't work anymore.
CHA for weapon attacks that's not magical is weird. I'd rather not use that.
There's somethings I like from this, but I'm probably not gonna ever DM this.
And this is why I made this video. You can see some things you might wanna take and try and insert into your own game and others you leave at the door. 😊
A charisma based barbarian is one who uses his force of presence to intimidate his opponents on the battlefield and make them doubt themselves and drop their guard. The Barbarian's self confidence is enough to break his opponents' resolve.
Jackie Chan's 'Drunken Master' is a Charisma based monk; he uses body language to deceive his opponents into being unable to anticipate his moves.
Might is still important for a barbarian, as there are minimum requirements for using heavy weapons, etc. Agility is still important for monks since it calculates into their unarmoured defense.
You don't have to play the CHA based martial, but it CAN make sense.
@@insertphrasehere15 but in doing so would you then be suboptimal in one or the other? You’re going from a 1 stat class to forcing yourself into a 2 stat class.
@@CriticalMits The might and agility requirements aren't super high (I think +1 at most).
And you kinda want a decent might on a martial anyway so you don't get deducted hit points (or decent agility for AC in the case of the monk). Fits well as a second stat without too much issue.
You aren't going to be as good at grappling, jumping, athletics, and you'll have a few less hit points.
But Charisma is useful in combat in DC20! each positive point of charisma gives you a Grit point that you can essentially use as luck points to help allies re-roll attacks and saves.
The skills you are good at will be very different too.
If you want to play the "team player big personality Barbarian", a CHA based barb could be quite fun honestly, and they will play quite a bit differently in and out of combat.
@@insertphrasehere15 certainly sounds interesting 🤔 would really have to play around with the system a lot more figure this out for myself so thanks!
I honestly though the appeal of the “primary stat” was that you could just focus your stats on out of combat stuff and ignore it mostly for combat, was the vibe I got but yeah I guess it’s still pretty much you need to think about it more anyways.
Mastery is proficiency but there are two kinds. Combat mastery is just based on level. Skill/trade mastery is based on investment so you can choose what to be okay at and really good at. That's basically the whole mastery system.
What Pathfinder actually does with skills (DC20 hasn't yet but I hope the mastery system signals they will) is use skill proficiently levels to gate special abilities (for example, getting to Master proficiency in society unlocks a feat to start doing the Sherlock thing where you observe someone and figure out where they're from and what they do, or getting to Master in athletics unlocks a feat to wall jump).
I don’t know if I like the complexity of having to preplan so much of your character to get certain things. Systems on top of systems just seems overly complicated for me.
@@CriticalMits that's fair, though (in Pathfinder 2e) skill feats are by no means must-haves. You just get a skill point every other level, and means every character can potentially grab a few expertise equivalents by level 20 (reaching legendary proficiency in a skill). I like that it means each character can be nearly unparalleled at certain things, rather than "you're proficient or not." Basic proficiently is still there, but you get rewarded for going beyond that and getting really good at your specialty.
With that said, a lot of skill feats aren't the best designed. They do the job of making sure you can't spend all your character abilities on combat stuff, but some of the lower level ones especially feel like taxes to do basic things.
I see a bunch in here from D&D 4E 5E and pathfinder 2e
Yep, it’s a mix!
I’m concerned with the counter spell action because I think this is going to slow the game down quite a bit. It’s also something the DM is going to need to be concerned with. You can no longer have one big bad I think be a use that big bad is going to be countered every spell they cast. This reminds me of silvery barbs. And as a DM I will absolutely be countering every PCs spell I can. Oh you’re healing your friend? Nope, counter. I typically take the zeitgeist of the players and initiate it as my DM style. So if the players are hyper tactical then my baddies become equally hyper tactical. Otherwise you are playing chess vs checkers. For example my baddies willl definitely swap their injured companion for a fresh one at the front line and the injured one willl then make ranged attacks. My baddies will definitely be leaping off cliffs to do bludgeoning damage, etc. it actually sounds very cool but also a lot to keep track of. I’ll probably have to play a few sessions before I determine if the added complexity is worth the effort.
Yeah definitely play test it. It’s not as bad as you think. The more you counterspell, the less resources you have to actually cast. And you have less resources on your actual turn to do things. AND the big bad’s spell checks to be countered might just be VERY difficult. There’s a lot of variables.
If it is a more pathfinder 2e like 5e that is exactly the opposite I want
Then it’s probably not for you! But that’s ok! 👍 play the way you want at your table 😉
Good review. That sunk cost fallacy is a shame though.
Oh you mean how much I’ve put into another system that I still enjoy?
So dc20 is stealing a lot from the "next dnd" and so it's hyped for these "unique" ideas? 😮
@@H0NDO so basically yes but it’s hyped because a lot of people agree it’s taking the best parts and making it one system and adding original content that they agree with. But as you can see the “best” are subjective to people who play different systems.
It's refreshing to see a review that wasn't written by a fanboi. This system is not nearly as innovative as its boosters seem to think it is. I'm not saying it's bad. I just get annoyed at all the, "Gee, look at this idea!" that was first used in TTRPGs decades ago.
Thanks! Yeah this my honest and raw opinion of it. Like there’s a lot of cool stuff but non of it is… super innovative? It’s most just taking the best ideas and combining them, which I guess is kind of innovative? But yeah my class review will be out in… a few hours? So check that out too. 😉
Definitely appreciate the candid look at this, you break down a lot more of the material than most folks tend to. If you're interested in looking at another d20 TTRPG, I'd be curious to hear your take on the one I've been developing for the past year. Plenty of free alpha material available!
Sounds amazing! Send me a link! 😆
@@CriticalMits RUclips will probably eat my link if do that here, but it's listed in my channel description! If you go there, and scroll down a bit to the part where I mention playtesting, Alpha 06 is the newest version available to play, totally free.
@@WrelPlays I found it! Will give a read!
@@CriticalMits Awesome, thank you!
I agree that the crunchy bits of DC20 might s’ow down the game, but really, you can chose too implement more and more as you go and get used to the system, so in reality, its a question of how fast you want your game to go if you accept to leave some stuff behind at the beginning. You’ll still be able to move, attack, help and occasionally, look at the cool things you can do. All in all, DC20 looks very promising and I’m looking foward to switch my table from 5e to DC20. Good video! GO DC20!!!
Yeah! See this is the kind of comment I like. It’s helpful and informative and it praises me. 🤣 but yes, I agree. Take it slow, learn the system and it’s likely to speed up in no time!
I really like the idea of using points to buy racial traits! Lets you play whatever fantasy race you want, not just the ones in the book.
Yeah it’s a cool take on “pick what you want to be” rather than just having preconceived notions about what everyone becomes.
I have heard that complain a lot about having too many things to keep track of.
I can see the argument for those who want a rules light system, but I don't think DC20 is meant to be a rules light system.
In terms of number of "points" to keep track of I think it is a little different than 5e but not worse.
Think about the number of "things" you have to keep track of in 5e be it die or slots.
For martials arguably have a bit more things to keep track of in DC20 than in 5e, because they are basically all Battle masters and need to keep an eye on their Stamina points.
But in 5e they would have to keep an eye on the number of superiority die they have left, and they would have to remember the size of those superiority dice.
As of 0.7 alpha most abilities that have a limited use reset at the start of a combat. It makes things a lot simpler to track.
As for Spellcaster I would argue it is way more simple to keep track of your mana pool than keeping track of how many spell slots you have for each spell level.
Rest points are just like hit dice except more simple because you don't need to remember their size (specially with multi classing in DND it can get complicated).
Grit points I cannot find an equivalent maybe luck points ?
My point is (pun intended) there a new things to keep track of and we are not used to it (yet) but is not much different in terms of stuff to remember than 5e. I think after few games it migh even fell easier.
Yeah I see your point (pun intended) 😆
This has been mentioned before but I feel like, for me at least, not having them all called points makes it easier in my mind to keep track of. Weird, I know.
And yah I’m sure it just takes getting used to like any new system.
@@CriticalMits Interesting ... I wonder if there is a way to find different names for all of these. I am guessing you are not the only one in these situation.
@@olivierhuet9860 I’m sure I’m also probably just over thinking it and simply getting used to the system would fix it but this is from a glance. And from that glance it would be a “new player” perspective, that’s all.
@@CriticalMits I do agree with not calling some of them call points.
There's no reason not to simple call the "Mana" and "Stamina"; "spend one stamina" is just better than "Spend one stamina point". similar with "I spend two Actions"
But I think that will just come naturally with play.
@@insertphrasehere15 yeah highly likely. And with iteration on versions the DC20 rules it might change.
Mastery is super simple. It's just half your level. Not sure what's so confusing? It's essentially your Proficiency bonus, but it increases in more regular increments
It was more that everything is named “something mastery” and if everything has the same or similar name it’s harder to differentiate. I’m looking at it from a new player to a new system POV.
I stopped watching when he said he liked the 5e skill system. Worst most deadlined, uncustomizable beyond lvl 1 skill system I have seen in any RPG.
You have your opinion, I have mine. Thanks for the comment!
It actually does help a lot to learn how other people think. What’s the best skill system out there you’ve used? I’d love to check it out 😊
I love the extra damage to hitting a number over the target's armor. However, I will always be a d10 system fan
Yeah the idea of scaling damage seems cool but just seems like it takes getting used to.