that final comment about how the modern interpretation of the Nazis was fed to us, how we (still) see them as they wanted to be seen (infinite, imposing, grounded, deified etc), is genuinely haunting
It is. The difference is that their mere sight disturbs our modern sensibilities, only further so with our modern understanding of who the Nazis were, what they stood for, and what they did. So when we see their propaganda, we don’t see it as amazing. We look and kind of see brainwashing and fanaticism and whatnot. ...Though some people still fall for it... (“Pictures of The Madness” had to close the comments section because it was filled with idiots going “Lol, I don’t see any madness, they look clean as fuck”).
@@bigbluebuttonman1137 That's a kind of a good indicator for detecting nazis, actually. They will almost always look at satire or parody about the nazis as fact. An example of this is the Onion's "Grabbler" video. The comments under it are very clearly nazis using dog-whistles to describe the Jewish people.
@@bigbluebuttonman1137 TIME MAGAZINE didn't "see any madness" within the National Socialists either , when they named Adolph Hitler as "Man of the Year" in 1936. British PM Lloyd George felt the National Socialists looked "clean as fuck" too , when he complimented Hitler as being "the George Washington of Germany" . I do not think you have the foggiest notion of actual history !
This is a bit weird to say but I actually think the pause at the end after the final statement was really effective for successfully getting me to like, clearly think about "the film we refer to when thinking of the Nazis is exactly the film the Nazis wanted us to refer to when thinking of them," good call for placing it there.
This is the point of propaganda filmmaking and photography: to take reality and distort it so the viewer is seeing something that is not actually real. It's intentionally biased filmmaking, meant to shove a certain point of view into the mind of the viewer. It uses the tools of filmmaking to do this. If the viewer were to see the actual Nuremburg rally in 1935, he or she would have seen the cameras placed and being moved from place to place, along with the audience members who were not adoring and worshipping the Nazi leaders. Furthermore, the video itself notes the disorder and instability of the German government was intentionally omitted and downplayed in order to project the (imaginary and untrue) image of a united, unified and all-powerful state, worshipped unquestionably by all present.
It's not that what they shot wasn't real, but rather the effects of what was shot and how vs what wasn't. Even a documentary doesn't just 'objectively' capture some event, there's always editorializing going on, and what is motivating that editorializing needs to be considered.
sure, and it also applies, when I am posting here this video of Scientology Media Producitons - while they are not yet so powerfull in fact, they infiltrate everywhere, even in my country, not only as religious group, but in the form of recruiting "front groups" where people dont even realize they are brainwashed ... but the point is equal - spreading message about weolth and power and "saving the world" movement ... dangerous as hell :-(
"They used Christian imagery, not because they shared Christian values, but because they know the feelings that are tied to them" It sounds sadly very familiar
I'm actually quite curious. In what way is waging war for Lebensraum, killing Jews, Romani and handicapped people, and, as mentioned, dabbling in paganism 100% christian?
The German population was very christian, but the regime of course doesn't like it if a pastor speaks up against them. The people listened to those pastors and that was way they were so dangerous to the regime. But they would have never dared to move away from Christianity. But in the end o course they way acted was not christian, as are many politics still today that call themselves that.
To be fair, this invocation of religious imagery is not always a bad thing; Binding of Isaac uses Christian Imagery to create feelings of extremity and fanaticism in some contexts, as well as redemption and faith in other contexts.
12:30 _"A man so blessed by the Gods that even cats take notice of his passing.."_ Good eye. That shot alone perfectly illustrates the absurdity of cinematic propaganda.
"Don't be impertinent," said the King, "and don't look at me like that!" "A cat may look at a king," said Alice. "I've read that in some book, but I don't remember where."
As someone who lives in Nuremberg it's always a bit weird seeing scenes from Triumph des Willens. Much of the architecture build by the Nazis is still intact and have been repurposed. Like an old power station in which the outlines of a Reichsadler can still be seen now being used as a Burger King joint. Or the big Zeppelinfeld in which much of the speeches took place in the film, I think now being used to stage rock festivals.
Well, both America and Nazi Germany have megalomaniacal leaders backed by heavy propaganda, advisers with a low profile, fanatical support. I'm not saying it's the exact same thing, but it's pretty damn close. It might be my fear clouding my judgement but I think it's only a matter of time before shit hits the fan
@@voidofspaceandtime4684 Literally everything in this video and decades of history says it is very, very useful. Just perhaps not a positive force in the world.
Quite recently I started watching Nazi-related videos and films with the current bloodfest happening in my country (The Philippines). I'm starting to see how state-run propaganda happening in this time is one of the worst moments to live through. I lost 2 work collegues, they were shot dead by the police for "suspected" drug dealing, they were just going home from work. My government is firing and arresting politicians who are a "threat" to the state. 7,000 people (including children as young as 6 years old) are murdered by the police for "drugs". The death penalty will be passed, with the age of the criminal to be as young as 9 years old. Me and my friends yell and complain, but the masses praise and prasie our president like a messiah. In their eyes the poor deserves to die because they are worth nothing. Some of my family members agree to the killings even if they know these victims are innocent because its "population control". Poor people dont deserve to live. We are also experiencing historical revisionism in its most stupid form. 31 years ago MILLIONS of people stormed the streets to oust our President for his abusive dictatorship. Now the current government gave this abusive dictator a state funeral. His family was never tried and still live in luxury. People are now trying to say what happened 30 years ago was a fluke. A lie. 30 years ago my country was liberated from a dictatorship where 10,000 people were missing, tortured, raped, or mutilated. My country LOST SO MUCH MONEY and is still paying for the debt until this day. But people somehow agree that the abusive era of my country was the best and anyone who survived the tortures should move on or are being dramatic.
That's the American attitude writ large: the poor are expendable fodder, but here they tell us it's because they're lazy, irresponsible, and didn't try hard enough
Two years late, but, my deepest condolences. I had heard of that evil bastard of a president in the Philippines (and how our president praised him) but didn't know it was that bad...and the fact that your very family is content with the heinous consequences of his reign is also relatable. I get frustrated with the apathy, content, and approval of my fellow Americans with politicians who are _plainly_ liars, crooks, war criminals, rapists, thieves, narcissists, and idiots. Not even just dragging Trump, I'm talking about 99% of the lot of them. It infuriates me. But I always tell myself, "If only it were a _little_ bit more obvious. If only they saw a _little_ bit more of their evil"...neglecting that, of course, the evidence of their evil is very easily accessible. But then I hear your story about your country, and I wonder. I wonder how long it would take before the common American populace was apathetic, content, or approving of the murders of children because of their supposed "degeneracy." And then... Now I remember clearly. All the unarmed black children, gunned down police, in plain sight, VIDEOTAPED and showcased online. And then I realize: it's already happening. God, our world is fucked.
Your explanation of the night of long knives, despite being only a few sentences, makes it infinitely more clear than anything taught to me in history class.
It also doesn’t help with our modern perception of the Nazis as immense and powerful that so much of our film shorthand for villains and villainous regimes is lifted directly from Riefenstahl’s work. From Star Wars to the Hunger Games, when trying to convey the terror of a regime, our directors, cinematographers and production designers lift ideas straight out of the Nazi propaganda handbook, reinforcing the cultural perception of the Third Reich in the process.
True. I think in media where the evil regime is entirely fictional this is slightly toned down, but anyone who cannot recognize the fascist nature of the Galactic Empire, and its clear calls to Nazi Germany (for example, through calling their soldiers stormtroopers) is effectively blind to reality. I think the prequels did a really good job of broadening the political commentary of Star Wars to cover fascism in general, even though there are very clear callbacks to Nazi Germany there as well (for example, Emperor Palpatine was initially elected Chancellor Palpatine). I think the real harm comes from other films where the evil, over-the-top villains are LITERALLY Nazis. I think that does far more harm in portraying the evilness of fascism as unreal, something that could only happen in the past or in fiction. When, in reality, there are various fascistic movements happening rn. Even when these movements are not explicitly fascist, they share enough traits with fascism as an ideology to be considered harmful.
@@CarlMarxPunk It's the same problem that "Fight Club" had, and largely for the same reasons. "Fight Club" is a movie that is fundamentally about how the obsessive, near-fetishistic pursuit of a hypermasculine ideal as defined by American cultural norms in the 1990s and 2000s is destructive to others, to the self, and to the world. It discusses themes of toxic, harmful idealisation of machoism; the obliteration of the self in the quest for an impossible ideal; the selfish, self-obsessed desires of the victims of propaganda to "regain" something they had never actually lost. It's a story about the quest for an emotional panacea to fix the pain and frustration caused by a society in crisis. But, it forgets how many people don't realise that the ideal they're chasing will kill them. They don't realise that one of the main characters is a man who, after chasing masculinity to the point of injecting steroids to become the "true macho man", developed testicular cancer and required a removal... and that this is a metaphor. His quest for the ideal literally emasculated him. It's not even a SUBTLE metaphor. But all people see is that he's now portrayed as weak and womanly and emotionally "soft" and that he clearly "didn't do manliness right". They idealise the villain because they don't understand the metaphor.
Very interesting thought. Actually I came here to watch this video, because shots in the movie "Gladiator" seemed to draw visual parallels to Nazi propaganda movies. The shots were desaturated to the point of almost being black and white and showing a enormous army standing in line at the arrival of Phoenix's character. But here I felt as if the visual parallels were somewhat justified, because they were to a certain extent inevitable, due to the Nazi's use of Roman and Greek architecture and symbols.
Oh man, right at the beginning when I heard you say that it wasn't great filmmaking, I knew I was going to love this film. I sat through it one afternoon in film school in order to see this "horrific yet great work." After which, I said that the true "Triumph of the Will" was that I managed to actually finish the damn thing.
Nac117 I can only ever manage to watch 10 minutes before I get bored. How did you manage? I thought originally it would be very interesting, but it turned out to be astoundingly boring. So much marching. so much shouting and crowds hailing all the time.
A US dollar is a little over a tenth of a millimeter in thickness. If you stacked a million one dollar bills side by side it would cover a length slightly longer than a standard US football field. If you did a billion it would be over 100 km long- not quite as long as Long Island, New York, but almost 2/3rds its length... If you started at the Brooklyn Bridge and started driving east until you hit the mark you'd end up near a place called Yaphank, smack dab in the middle of Suffolk County, miles and miles from the city. A trillion dollar bill stack would encircle the Earth about one and a half times.
I wouldn't call it chilling, because power and money in and of itself is not a bad thing. Its how its used and the imbalance that it can create if its concentrated too centrally. What it really does is just gives you a good scope of personal wealth vs collective wealth, and all those nuances inbetween
@@LoxBegleyJr Our minds aren't really built for numbers that large. It's very difficult to even contextualize them, let alone trying to comprehend them. 😵
@@Ian_sothejokeworks Kids demonstrate that fact so well when they start learning addition with more than 1 digit. My kids would try to stump us adults with questions like "what's 3 trillion plus 6 trillion" without even thinking it's just 9 followed by 12 zeroes.
Please make more videos like this. The best way to counter propaganda is to analyze and critique its function. We're living in a world where fact and fiction are slowly becoming horrifyingly intertwined.
when you say " fact and fiction are becoming horrifyingly intertwined" I definitely am inclined to agree... although I feel like we are probably talking about two different and opposing sets of fiction.
Lostin Thegarden yeah, you have a playlist called anti-white propaganda with a video about BLM. Fuck your racist bullshit. You think racism is fiction? You think black people not getting murdered is unamerican? Fuck that.
Ooh, I wonder who you could be implying! I'm sure you are neither an antisemite or a xenophobe, of COURSE!@@hegeliandetective1034 The answer being that, no, "they" don't actually own Hollywood, or a majority of Hollywood. Some of Hollywood, sure, but... what does that even mean at that point, unless you want them to... own nothing? Which, of course, we know you do. Your guy literally talks about non-whites and non-Christians "poisoning the blood" of the nation, which.... is just using the exact same language as Hitler. Right before he started to genocide the same people you're dehumanizing here.
as an aside: those shots of Denethor from "Return of the King" which you show around 7:45 are pretty evocative of "Saturn Devouring His Son" by Goya, esp. in the context of that part of the film.
I'm from Germany and just now I finally understood why so many depictions of facism in media supposedly inspired by Nazi culture feature all that weird marching. It never really was part of my mental picture of them and somewhat confused me, being so predominant in depictions. So thank you for clearing up that mystery.
unfortunately in many other parts of the world, too many people are not even aware of that usage in media in the first place, so they cant even recognize why the various images of facist imagery or themes in media are bad fly completely over millions of peoples heads readings and deconstructions like these are so goddamn important. so many people are pushed to discomfort because they dont want to face the mere idea of nazis or facism since it disrupts their entertainment
Same really, also a German. The pictures that come to my mind when i think about the war are the bombed out ruins of the cities, the direct result people had warned the country about as far back as 1925.
As a person who took media studies in college this is welcome insightful understanding of the film. From the start where you explained how the film's techniques were not new and this was in itself propaganda was a revelation to how Triumph was first communicated to me.
a quick comment on the distinction is magnitude between corporation propaganda and state propaganda : it's relevant comparing american global corporations and us state, but for example, it could be more debatable if comparing a smaller, poor nation's state revenue to the advertisement power of a multinational company which operates in it.
idrils think about how dictators of extremely poor countries can become absurdly rich, and you get an idea of the power of a motivated state apparatus to spend money on shit.
Dont forget that the USA's actual amount of taxes available for public services is minuscule compared to the oodles of compulsory contributions spent on tanks, jets, ships, bombs and the 800+ military bases around the globe.
The big difference is that the government in a poor country, regardless of how poor, they have, by virtue of being a national government, the power to force a multinational corporation out of their country. This is rarely done because they would fear having so little money that they starve, but it has been done in places like Cuba.
Thank you, something felt slightly off. Not off to the point of feeling wrong, but a back of the brain "This feels different from what I know, but why?"
That ending is really haunting. Beautiful and chilling and just a complete eye opener. I can honestly say that I will view things much more subjective now than I did before. Damn you're intelligent.
As a Romani anti fascist activist in the US you have no idea how happy it made me to hear you actually mention us as victims of the Nazis since we're so often left out of that discussion here
Keep up the fight brother! The Romani are the hidden victims of fascism, not just in Germany but worldwide. Know that us British anti fascists have your back!
As an American I was shocked to learn how much anti-Romani sentiment is still out there in the world too. Should have figured. Prejudice never goes away overnight. Stay well.
@@Narokkurai. Bet your tone would change upon seeing hungarian, where they burn more money for bling than food, immigrants get paid better than who lived and worked here all their lives! And, being jerks about that too.
The idea of the Nazis co-opting religion and science and perverting them to fit their cause is pretty disconcerting in this current political climate. Great video. And even better, an important video.
Yeah, Dan seems to have had hrmmm...fun? with relevent implications to today...notably the false statistics and the scale on which states can spread propaganda. And most of all...winning all the time and geting tired of winning.
Also stuff like making your ideas seem more universal then they really are. That line about how they excluded the actual German army from the film and made the demonstrably smaller SS look neverending really does bring a lot into question. There were way more of them than Nazi's at that point, they could have stopped that. It reminded me about how Trump lost the popular vote...
Christ, why are conservatives so aggressively horrible at every opportunity? We get it. Your positions are indefensible in any world where good exists.
Thank you! In film school, I was so sick of hearing about what a genius Leni Riefenstahl was. I had similar thoughts when first watching it. How none of the techniques were innovative, that she just had a huge budget and lots of "extras". I've always said that Triumph was the propaganda equivalent of Anthony & Cleopatra. And a big fat middle finger to anyone who tried to whitewash Riefenstahl as a non-nazi. Anyone who thought Hitler was harmless by 1934 was an idiot at best. She signed up for a SECOND propaganda film. AFTER the night of the long knives!
don't think of triumph of the will when you think of the nazis. think of their organisation being destroyed by the allied forces, and think of a cowering sad man killing himself while berlin is liberated from his regime. the image the nazis want you to remember is their power, so instead, remember how they lost it.
And remember the people they killed. The children who were starved, the children who were shot. That is what demonization of whole categories of people leads to.
ok , how did gypsies steal the german money? they got demonised and killed as well or the disabled who were the first to get killed . or is what you are saying an absolute pile of apologist crap trying to justify the mass killing of people for no other reason than they didnt fit in with the new way .
I'm so glad you often end your videos with a shot of your adorable cat, that last line left me cold. This was an absolutely fascinating dissection of this film and propaganda overall. I'm so glad I found your videos. I always feel I learn a lot from you. Keep doing what you're great at, and have a lovely day.
Rarely do I comment on videos, but this has blown my mind in so many ways. Especially the last frame, and to know that the Nazi propaganda works till this day...
+Chief Rabbi Avner Echoberg-Shekelstein Molotov-Ribbentrop. It's very obvious, from you username alone, that you have "studied" National Socialism for years, meaning anything you say about history or politics is especially worthless. All fascists are liars.
+Chief Rabbi Avner Echoberg-Shekelstein Tell me more about how in the true, non-Jewish history the glorious Nazi's secretly triumphed. Is Hitler presiding over his Aryan utopia in the basement of the Reichstag to this day?
+Chief Rabbi Avner Echoberg-Shekelstein It's pretty amazing how the Polish waged war in Germany by forcing genocidal Nazi armies to invade and annex half their country
That last point really got me, and in light of this I will be making an active effort to change my mental image of the nazis to a lonely teenage conscript driving a horse-drawn carriage full of broken Tiger II transmissions while absolutely buggered on amphetamines. Which, in addition to hopefully countering the propaganda, is probably truer to history.
The exclusion of the camps and the racism and the purges are arguably just as important as what they included. The point of ideology is not just in determining what to do based on certain facts, but also to decide which facts are even worth considering. As Abby Thorn said, "Ideology is like jazz: it's about the notes you _don't_ play. […] the whole point is you don't realize they're not being played because their absence is assumed to be natural." The point of those exclusions was(/is) to say that all those atrocities were simply the right thing to do - so right and so normal that they're not even worth mentioning - and I think that's probably the most insidious part of the whole thing.
I think a part of it is also in how facists are obsessed with aesthetics. To even consider showing people they view as subhuman, even to revel in their deaths, is an ugly disgusting waste of film.
It's notable just how boring Triumph of the Will is. Like, even going purely by cinematography, the Expressionist films being made in the years before the Nazis are definitely better-looking (and absolutely more interesting).
well yeah? its 1. documentary and therfore not suüposed to have the structure we have of the hero shit ad second.. one element of propaganda is its repetition. It has to be easy to grasp even for the slowest of thinkers and then it needs to be repeated agaon and again to hammer in how nice the bg event is, how great a group, how uplifiting the feeling to be part of a bigger whole. I think that's hat dan is missing- that all those kow techniques were used together (which was unusual for that time) not to suggest that nazis had money enough to put 150 cameras around the parteitag and have leni organize and do the whole choreography- but that they were a big group that only wants the best (and no mention of genocide.directly)for all and that its so nice to be a part of a big powerful group.. also dan for fucks sake please fucking look how to fucking pronounce those names.. its röhm, the ö is like the o in word. not like the O on tone. and the I in triumph is pronounced like the ea in dear. "trea-umpf."
littlemissleeches Documentaries can be pretty entertaining if done right. Though this was obviously before we really figured out how to make documentaries entertaining. Imagine what it would be like if it had been made today though. Probably a bit like those History Channel "documentaries".
I really think the boredom is part of the point: if you purposely bore people to mental numbness while simultaneously screaming at them "OMG THIS IS THE GREATEST THING EVER LOOK HOW AMAZING IT IS", then they start to doubt themselves and their own ability to tell art from sh**. Once you can dislocate their own internal critical apparatae then you can get them to accept whatever critical judgements you tell them, b/c *obviously* you know what *art* is much better than they do.
great video. as a german film student people brought up this film and its director to me many times as like a positive or like aspirational example of female film makers and there is something so gross about it and im glad you managed to succinctly say exactly why
it's not an "aspirational example" of effective propaganda because.... it's exactly an excellent example of effective propaganda? every word this man said was an implicit endorsement lol
@@blank4227 No, what Dan was saying was that while it might be effective propaganda, its otherwise boring movie that's only notable feature was how much money was spent in making it.
@@Estarile you contradict yourself. if it is actually was effective propaganda (and Dan is scared by this, hence the reason to make the video) then it has obviously has more notable features than money spent. And of course, if one of its notable features was its effectiveness, then... haha!
@@Estarile You can break sentences up into smaller parts whenever you see a comma, and ask yourself if they make sense. How would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast yesterday?
I've tried to watch it so many times, but I always only last 15 minutes then I start skipping to better more interesting scenes, but there isn't any so I just give up again.
Clams Cartel While most of the film is either striking framing with nothing much going on or just boring, Hitler's speech is hypnotic in a legitimately unsettling way where it is clearly meant to be rousing, and the crowd response makes it scarier given that, even setting aside who he is, they are cheering on a foamy-mouthed man literally screaming about rigor mortis.
Greatness isn't based on your personal enjoyment, moron. It doesn't depend on how much fun you had with it. It's the competence of the techniques on display, mastery of the language, and more importantly the impact of the work. This is still one of the most impactful works of the past century (even if it was flamed by the people who made it), a prime example of its field, and a prime example of the real potential this medium can be used for, therefore elevating it. Leni took what came before and heightened it to an extent never really felt before, or at least not since Birth of a Nation 30 years earlier - even then, this was a significant refinement of it. Even if you find a monument boring, that doesn't change it being a monument.
There's an element of subtext you missed in that LotR scene: Denethor is a coward indulging in shallow hedonism while Faramir sacrifices himself to protect someone who doesn't deserve that protection. Metaphorically, symbolically, Denethor is cannibalizing Faramir.
There are definitely some films originally made as propaganda that hold up artistically. Early Soviet films are the obvious reference point, but there are others. Some of the WWII-era British patriotic films are incredible. Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger's 49th Parallel and The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, plus Went The Day Well? (adapted from a story by Graham Greene) are particularly good. They do their intended job of making you want to fight Nazis to the bitter end, but they're also really well-crafted, compelling, intelligently-made stories.
Oh, "Went the Day Well?"! That one goes unusually dark for a propaganda piece, doesn't it? And it was directed by Alberto Cavalcanti, poor man! Born in Brazil, made a modicum of success in England, was invited to direct his country's major (coughcough only cough cough) studio... only for him to be met with a burgeoning group of nationalistic experimental directors who thought he was way too "foreign" and square, so they hounded him day and night, sabotaged his productions, defamed him and eventually exposed to the press the fact that he was gay, in a country and time where that could (and would) destroy a man's carreer, so Cavalcanti got extremely depressed, left Brazil for good and never recovered. All that only for the studio to go bankrupt a hot second after he left because those avantgard movies they were so protective of were not paying the bills, anyway. (sigh) btw, Dead of Night is amazing and Cavalcanti's part in that is a classic.
I had a class on the subject and did a similar essay to this one but regarding the graphic design of Nazi propaganda...they "invented" nothing, they just plastered their propaganda everywhere. You can find nearly identical ads for beer, cola, and cigarettes and as we all know the alcohol, soft drink, and tobacco industries have done consistently well over the past century. Glad to see you stayed critical in your essay here; I've heard way too many people fail to be critical of this film. >_>
Funny you mention beer and cola companies. Before the second world war, swastikas were used a lot by coca cola, and by a lot of beer companies on their bottles. Google "coca cola swastika". See the keyrings/badges they used to sell as merch in the shape of a swastika. I'm not making this up. Swastikas were widely used in the west until world war II.
So this was great, but I went on to rewatch your breakdown of Suicide Squad after this, and while I love the political bent you've been going on lately ... Are you familiar with Archer? The FX comedy-spy cartoon? Because there's this thing that Archer has mastered, and that's the edit as a gag. They do it all the time. Setup on one side of the cut, punchline on the other, in a completely different context. AND the pace and story stay coherent. Sometimes it's visual, sometimes it's in the dialogue, and sometimes a verbal setup AND a distinct visual setup will BOTH pay off independently of one another on the other side of the cut, to the point where there are so many gags that you lose track (rewarding re-watching). Arrested Development did similar. I'm not 100% up on everything you've ever done, but I don't recall seeing you do a thing on editing of comedy/editing AS comedy.
You know what, I haven't done a video on the edit AS comedy, and I agree, I should. Archer, Hot Fuzz, Venture Brothers, lots of great examples out there.
Wright edits funny images together, and he absolutely uses his sense of comic timing to help the edit contribute to rather than slow down the humor. The cuts have to be timed right to keep the laugh rolling, and yeah, he's a master at that, because he's got a fantastic sense of timing. But e.g. Wright's little mini-montage establishing shots that he does - obviously they're funny, and the edits are part of those, but the humor of those comes more from the novelty of the technique or a funny look on Simon Pegg's face. I think I'm getting at something else. Or at least a broader category that includes that. It's this idea of this very fundamental winding of the edit into the fabric of the bit. Think more along the lines of writing a joke that requires a cut as opposed to editing funny images together with good comic timing. Those places where the cut - or the lack of a cut - IS the joke, i.e. the two frames or scenes side-by-side IS what gets the laugh. Or the laugh comes from the FAILURE to cut - you sit there looking awkwardly at the screen, and you feel just as uncomfortable as the characters. The Office and Parks and Rec did that all the time. Because a cut is fundamentally a jarring thing, it can (if you do it right) plus-up the humor by tossing in that little bit of extra *hnngh* - the cut throws you off balance so the joke catches you even harder. Archer to me is the ur-example of this, but I'm sure Dan knows of plenty more. Cutting funny shots together in a funny way like Wright does, which I agree is great and worthwhile, is only part of what I'm getting at. Archer in particular - the way they cut dialogue and image together so that they can take you half way around the world in the middle of a sentence - a joke, even - and you don't miss a beat plot-wise AND you still laugh. Like, that's INCREDIBLY hard to do - I can't think of too many examples of that. Every Frame a Painting I thought was more about ... ahem ... the frame than it was about the edit.
I was thinking about this overnight (and also watching some of my favorite episodes of Archer): Un Chien Tangerine from season 4 has a great example of what I'm talking about: they set up a bit where Cheryl - Mallory's receptionist - gets a call from Lana; Lana wants to talk to Mallory. Mallory tells Cheryl "I'm not here," which makes Cheryl really uncomfortable. Part of Cheryl's character established across the series is that she's very much *not all there*. So Mallory explains that "I'm not here" is meant as a way to get rid of the call to Lana. Cheryl is incredulous - it's obvious she's no longer sure whether Mallory is real or not - but she goes along. Fast forward a couple scenes and Lana is fuming that Mallory didn't take her call. Archer tries to reassure her - they're in Tangiers, so the home office is five hours behind them. Lana snaps: "Oh please. She's totally there." Then: mash cut to Cheryl spying on Mallory through a mirror to see if she /really is/ there. There are dozens, maybe hundreds, of examples of this kind of joke that requires the edit to pay off. The two scenes required for setup and punchline happen concurrently, but halfway around the world from each other.
I am almost certain that at the beginning you saying “So this video is by popular request” and then a big sigh making it seem like a dutiful obligation is a subtle wink to a very effective form of propaganda and I love it and this video and you very much
THANK YOU. I remember I’m history our teacher said that even though it was racist, Triumph of the Will was revolutionary in filmmaking and I’ve always called bullshit on that and it’s very gratifying seeing others agree when my entire class thought I was being a dumb sjw (I was also the only female in the class too 👀)
We watched this 'movie' in a high-school film study class. It was boring and pathetic. It had no particular effect on me, other than making me think the nazis were superficial and obsessed with optics more than substance and complexity. I still feel this is an accurate conclusion.
I can't help but hear in undertones of American exceptionalism here. Especially insofar as the concept of casual expensiveness. Early in your video you provide context as to the financial leverage certain groups have, but reference the most expensive film ever; one of the Pirates movies. The title of "Most Expensive Movie Ever Produced" is one that's been handed down and lands on a new film every few years or so. Given your study, care, and expertise on editing and how film works I can't help but think this is intentional on some level? America's capitalist propaganda machine always asserting itself as casually capable of enormous expenditure, and only for entertainment! The posture that this pushes to the fore seems pretty evident. Thanks for another excellent video, always looking forward to more from you and my other film nerd channels.
you dimmed and used over head lighting like on an interrogation to ensure the that "this is not a typical subject I would choose but you guys talked me into it". You couldn't help yourself but play a little bit Hahahaha.
@@helmortkuper2626 but shouldnt the most powerful military state in all of europe be able to match 4 superpowers, I mean they are the most powerful military state in all of europe ;3
>convinces itself its the most powerful ideology ever >loses one (1) war >all of its deeply wounded foes quake in their boots at the mere mention of them, and at any tiny potential hint of its return >to this day the world is full of an ever-growing despair that its eternal return is inevitable wow
@@blank4227 did you just not watch this video? the fear of the return of nazism is from decades of consumption of art like star wars inspired by the depiction of fascism in triumph des willens. the nazis elicit fear because we have institutionalized an understanding based on taking their word at face value. what people are usually more scared of when they elicit nazism is its proponents and the proponents of fascism as a whole’s propensity for political violence against marginalized groups. other than the chinese and russians fighting for ideological purity, who are democidal rather than genocidal, no other political cohort has come close in attempting genocide, lest by emulating fascist methodologies from the 30s and 40s.
10:40 "Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluation the force of the enemy." This sentence makes so much sense given current events in Europe.
@@MaticTheProto not really, and that's what makes Putin so hard to deal with. He is "fascistic", but has learned a lot from other recent "humanitarian interventions". Russia is using the nazi and us playbooks at the same time.
Honestly it takes a certain "Triumph of the will" just to watch something as dull as that film. The Soviets were so much better at propaganda, Eisenstein could direct circles around Riefenstahl
LotR is my favorite series; Return of the King is my favorite movie of all time. And I was today years old when I understood the connection between Denethor and the orcs.
Excellent video. There's another propaganda film that I find interesting called Went the Day Well?, which was made by the British during World War 2. What I find interesting is that as a narrative, it's almost functionally indistinct from a lot of the thrillers that came out around that era, including Hitchcock's The Lady Vanishes which came out about two decades prior. The premise is that Nazis parachute into Britain and hide in a little country village pretending to be British soldiers. The villagers discover them and try to get the word out to the British army, and the film ends with the villagers besieged by the Nazi soldiers before the British army finally arrives to save them. Comparing Went the Day Well? to Triumph of the Will shows how important context is when it comes to the way propaganda is framed. The Nazis needed to lie about their strength and unity in order to legitimise themselves, but the British didn't need that in WW2. They were actually pretty united against a powerful existential threat from across the channel, and the propaganda honed in on that reality to create a sense of pride in their struggle.
Wow, first time I've seen someone mention "Went the Day Well"! It is a movie by Alberto Cavalcanti, a Brazilian born director (he also directed the most famous segment in British horror classic "Dead of Night" in the 40's, in which a ventriloquist dummy may or may not be alive - a trope that keeps on giving to this day, lol). "Went the Day Well" was, in fact, not very well received, for what I've learned, because it was seen as chilling but also a tad *too* grim for audiences at the time. Poor Cavalcanti had a lot of troubles throughout his carrer. His eviction from Brazil, in particular, is kind of a shameful bit in our cinematic history, and was a big part in the death of Brazilian cinema (it took a few decades for it to be reborn).
Very good explanation of a concept that is important to be aware of, and it is unfortunate that it has regained this importance. Also have to commend your german pronunciation, though there are a couple minor mistakes.
Minor mistakes can also just be called an accent lol. It usually takes decades to eliminate any trace of an accent even in a language you have fluency in
thought provoking, well thought out. flawlessly put together. your video essays just keep getting better and better. that pause at the end was so great. wouldn't change a thing.
Thank you for enduring the emotional load. That was a brilliant essay. It was insightful and eloquent. You consistently offer quality work and this video is no exception. Your grasp of and ability to unpack complex ideas is extraordinary. I salute your clarity, attention to detail and commitment to intellectual honesty. Please keep up the good work. I, for one, will remain a member of your audience for a long time to come.
that was amazing I learned more here than what history taught me in high school. Your ending message was amazing and your silence was palpable. love it man!
How broadly applicable is this definition of propaganda and narrative -- that is, the demand for a constant upward trajectory, unending heroism, etc.? Consider Capra's "Why We Fight" -- his answer to Riefenstahl -- which not only uses the sonorous scope of the Nazi's films against them but paints a picture of a reluctant America facing its call to action: "We hate war. We know that in war it’s the common man who does the paying, the suffering, the dying. We bend over backwards to avoid it. But let our freedoms be endangered, and we'll pay and suffer and fight to the last man. That is the America, that is the way of living, for which we fight today."
This gets into a deeper subject of value sets. Why We Fight still operates on this non-arc, but its framed around a different set of values, namely the much more Protestant salt-of-the-earth self-image. It still routinely frames America as an unstoppable force, though by virtue of hard work, determination, and sacrifice, in contrast to the Nazi value set of inherent superiority, aggression, and naked strength. A big part of what makes Why We Fight seem a little less absurd is the fact that the Nazis were actually a real military threat, as opposed to an invented enemy, and in retrospect were some of history's greatest monsters. It's still propaganda, but Capra didn't need to bend the truth very far to hit the mark. The more direct answer would be to look at what 'heroism' means in the context of the culture producing the propaganda. One thing propaganda is actually great for is figuring out what a culture thinks of itself, what it figures its values are.
A small correction on “they tried to turn the numerous German churches into an organ of the party through the Confessional Church.” The Confessional Church was exactly the opposite of that. It was an anti-Nazi Protestant movement in Germany that taught against Nazi ideology and the Nazi takeover of churches. Especially want to correct that since the leaders of the Confessional Church (including Dietrich Bonhoeffer) were arrested, tortured, and/or murdered by the Nazis, and it would be extremely sad if people mistakenly believed they worked with the Nazis. The Faithful Spy is a fantastic and beautiful graphic novel that gives a quick overview of the Confessional Church and Nazi Germany.
"Intolerance" is generally seen as the first big expensive moneysink blockbuster that didn't even make its money back. Though that one wasn't nearly as stupid.
This made me subscribe. You put to words some feelings in my head (particularly around borrowing legitimacy through the trappings of grand history) but also really surprised me and opened my eyes regarding other aspects of propaganda. And the whole thing is so cogent and fluid and evocative. Extremely well done, thank you for this.
What I think is the most scary, is that in school, when learning about Nazi Germany, we still use ALL their terms, the annexation of Austria is der Anschluss, the killing of the SA leadership is still the Röhm-Putsch/ Röhm coup (although Röhm didn't revolt), the Nazis' rise to power is good ol' Nazi language die Machtergreifung, etc. etc.
Deponensvogel True that! We were talking about it in school and it's quite bizarre to hear about Nazi-Germany and their defeat in German language. Ironic even!
This is a fascinating dissertation not just on the film and it's visual symbolism, but also a deeper discussion on the nature of propaganda and the 'motis' in film technique. Well done!
I really appreciate how in the description he subverts clickbait titles completely and has a satirical clickbait title but you actually have to be interested enough to read the description to see it, this is the first time I’ve noticed a clever subversion so give me some slack.
This video is an incredibly valuable teaching tool. I find myself coming back to it to think about the aesthetics of propaganda, power, religion, to name just a few salient points it covers. And the end is still chilling.
I finally got my fiance to watch him 2 nights ago, she really enjoys him but her short attention spam can't really keep up with what he's saying for more than 7 or 8 minutes. Only when we both watch the video together, or it's the shadow of the colossus video, does she sit through the entire thing.
Is it odd to find the thought that _Triumph of the Will_ is _not_ seminal or innovative to be comforting? I already knew that a horrifyingly large amount of Nazi propaganda was already successful in a memetic sense, but it's nice to know that people who only want to study film don't need to subject themselves to as much problematic material to understand film history.
@@justthecoolestdudeyo9446 It is. Feature Length movies were already a thing. Close up shots were already a thing. Birth of a Nation did nothing but popularize it.
@@ysgatora9287 I'm very glad to know that! I shouldn't be surprised that people with such a conservative, rigidly hierarchical view of the world would be unlikely to come up with a ton of innovation
@@justthecoolestdudeyo9446 If you're looking for direct rebuttals of BoaN as "seminal cinema," Kyle Kallgren from Brows Held High has a good one, and Fritzi Kramer from the blog Movies Silently has written about it (including the "first movie shown at the White House" canard).
I watched Triumph of the Will last year in preparation for watching The Great Dictator, as I knew it was the primary inspiration for Charlie Chaplin to satirize the Nazis. I expected it to be horrifying, to feel revolted, and chilled, and to dwell on the foreboding parallels with today, etc. And, yeah, I felt that... For about the first ten minutes. After that you just get bored because you're waiting for the marching to end. But it doesn't. By twenty minutes in, a new sort of dread sets in as you begin to suspect that this is what the entire movie is going to be. By thirty minutes, you have realized that's exactly what it is: endless marching sequences, interrupted by a few very unsurprising Hitler speeches. And that's when you decide to either switch it off or open your favorite bourbon and try to power through. Triumph of the Will isn't moving today, if it ever was to the general public. It's boring. You have to be a Nazi already to enjoy it, because they're the only people with enough specific head trauma to find videos of dudes marching for minutes on end to be interesting.
I can second that reference to The Occult Roots of Nazism. Well worth reading. You might also like to check out Black Sun by the same author, particularly relevant to the recent rise of the alt-right.
"They win so much that the audience gets tired of winning" - I heard something similar recently, during a particular election, if I remember correctly.
Many years ago I visited London and often saw ads for the bookmaking firm of Margolies and Ridley. "You win when you lose at Margolies and Ridley!". Maybe they had a gimmick where you earned points just for betting. Years later it became the central slogan of Republicanism in the US.
@@voidofspaceandtime4684 ? I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. The three arrows DO signify opposition to these ideas, but it's unclear from your comment and its tone whether you think they signify opposition or support.
Thank you for this. Thank you. Art matters, even now. Looking critically at art matters, especially now. We can't stop saying this. We can't stop thinking critically about it.
I don't know if this joke was intentional in the editing of the video, but having Floof show up in black & white right after you say "This right here is exactly the image they wanted you to think of when you thought of them" is oddly hilarious. I was watching this with a housemate nearby and he turned to look at the screen exactly as it cut to Floof and he went "a cat?"
The cat at the end was a test people. That adorable pose was exactly how the cat wanted us to think of it and If you clicked that link to more adorable cat behaviours you've learned nothing.
Hi, I've been a fan of this channel for a while. I was rewatching this video and it struck me that you have a talent for conveying this kind of serious topic in a way that sticks with the viewer and that doesn't fall into flippancy. I think this might be the best video you've made. Perhaps you'd consider making more videos about films of historical significance and not only about contemporary cinema?
Fascinating indeed, but as you yourself say "you should be highly suspicious of any messaging surrounding propaganda". Could anyone provide sources to the claim that "triumph of the will" is not a triumph of filmmaking?
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_des_Willens#Nachwirkungen makes mention of Riefenstahl's supposedly new techniques being done before, but doesn't go into much detail, lacks citations and only links other Wikipedia pages...
The video you're commenting on goes over it. All of the techniques used in the film had been done before, it was the scale that was different. Cameras in cars had been done, cameras all over a motorcade not so much. Cameras filming parades had been done, cameras filmings a parade from dozens of angles not so much. Aerial and tracking shots had been done, the amount included in Triumph of the Will not so much. And all of this use of already established film techniques being done on a larger scale than ever before is because Nazis threw loads of cash at the film, not of any filmmaking triumph.Calling it a triumph of filmmaking was just what the Nazis wanted people to think because then it is respected in the then decades old institiution of revolutionary German filmmaking. It would make the Nazis part of the giants that we stand on the shoulders of.
Griffith was definitely revolutionary as a director but most of his actual innovations came about in his numerous shorts made before BoaN, which was notable mainly for combining all of these things into one of the first feature-length films. This was one of my Film Studies professor's reasoning for showing some of Griffith's shorts instead of BoaN, so we could learn about about the innovations minus needing to sidetrack the class with lengthy discussions on racism.
Birth of a Nation by Griffith is mostly remembered because the uproar surrounding it launched film-making from being mostly regarded as a proletarian line of work to an actual industry. The movie itself is adequately made, but when it comes to storytelling, one must consider what is being told as much as how it's being told. In that regard, it's a positively terrible movie. Griffith's talent in filmmaking was mirrored by European filmmakers at the time, and his advancements in the art of film itself pale in comparison to those of artists such as Eisenstein and Vertov, who came just a few years later. I personally regard the film as propaganda. While it's clear that Griffith himself was an opportunist intent on creating controversy for the sake of generating interest in film, the film itself was later used as a recruitment tool by the KKK in a revival of their movement. In that regard I see the fact that it is still regarded as a cornerstone in the history if film, and all the praise surrounding it, as part of the propaganda, and indicative of the latent racism present in American culture.
Wow, fascinating stuff! Weirdly enough as a German AND a historian, I'm not very familiar with National Socialist film and propaganda - possibly because my various school curriuculum experiences with the topic relied a lot more on reading material than audio-visual media (I think maybe much like "Mein Kampf" is still legally forbidden to be printed and even owned, and therefore not even consumed in an editorialized version, we eschew a lot of visual primary sources as well, because the imagery just hits too close to home...). So this was a very educational and interesting excursion in that direction. Thank you for smoothly and competently tackling this important and delicate topic! Also, just to let you know, I've been working my way through your editing and film theory/review vids from Suicide Squad backwards and they're amazing!
Yes! Thank you for this video! I got into this channel about a month ago and after some of the minisodes about language and the depth/sensitivity to culture with which Fight Club was discussed, I was hoping we'd get a video essay on propaganda. I'm subscribing to this channel for sure. For anyone interested in a dated but frighteningly prophetic look at propaganda in the abstract, and with very specific examples (specifically surrounding the world wars), check out Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes by Jacques Ellul (1962). Dude was the real deal when it came to dealing with Nazi stuff. He wrote a broader book very in the school of thought that informs "They Live" called The Technological Society as well.
Just subscribed. Thank you for tackling such a difficult incendiary topic. From another RUclips channel they referenced Triumph and I was interested in its place in history. It has proved hard to find someone other then Rodger Ebert who helped me understand the significance and shortcomings of Triumph.
Well said. Treatment of "Birth of a Nation" in conventional film histories is another instance. You can still read a ton of that stuff and never learn what the damned thing is ABOUT, or its influence on how The South was romanticized and nostalgia-fied through the early-mid-20th C (and not just in Gone With The Wind) during the same period the Confederate statues were erected across the South and the KKK was practically mainstreamed, all in response to the rise of the Black civil rights movement.
The whole spiel you give at the end of this video (and that amazing pause at the end while you "watch" us absorb it) made me say "Oh my god" out loud in a dead silent library and now I look insane. You're amazing.
I've been thinking about this in relation to Dan's Last Jedi video but also how recent Star Wars has depicted the Empire and First Order. Because there's an interesting thread that's kinda there in Abrams' films and surfaces properly in TLJ about how the FO is really a pit of vipers and not the totally unified, unifying force it purports to be. It's something I wish the trilogy had carried through to the end.
wow, now i know more about propaganda, than the school have teached me. Cool video, perfectly made. What I also wanted to say, your German was very good. It's not easy to pronounce. You get a 1+! Good wishes from austria!
So anyone that disagrees with you politically or counters a point about a video, is a "nazi"... the emotional child's guidebook to arguing on the internet.
Hegelian Detective well, anyone who defends Nazi propaganda is a Nazi, that’s how that works. The alt-right relies so heavily on straw-man arguments it’s laughable.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
that final comment about how the modern interpretation of the Nazis was fed to us, how we (still) see them as they wanted to be seen (infinite, imposing, grounded, deified etc), is genuinely haunting
It is.
The difference is that their mere sight disturbs our modern sensibilities, only further so with our modern understanding of who the Nazis were, what they stood for, and what they did.
So when we see their propaganda, we don’t see it as amazing. We look and kind of see brainwashing and fanaticism and whatnot.
...Though some people still fall for it...
(“Pictures of The Madness” had to close the comments section because it was filled with idiots going “Lol, I don’t see any madness, they look clean as fuck”).
@@bigbluebuttonman1137 That's a kind of a good indicator for detecting nazis, actually. They will almost always look at satire or parody about the nazis as fact.
An example of this is the Onion's "Grabbler" video. The comments under it are very clearly nazis using dog-whistles to describe the Jewish people.
I see them as weak and flailing, which is dangerous.
@@bigbluebuttonman1137
TIME MAGAZINE didn't "see any madness" within the National Socialists either , when they named Adolph Hitler as "Man of the Year" in 1936.
British PM Lloyd George felt the National Socialists looked "clean as fuck" too , when he complimented Hitler as being "the George Washington of Germany" .
I do not think you have the foggiest notion of actual history !
It came from a 'nation' that existed less than a century old
This is a bit weird to say but I actually think the pause at the end after the final statement was really effective for successfully getting me to like, clearly think about "the film we refer to when thinking of the Nazis is exactly the film the Nazis wanted us to refer to when thinking of them," good call for placing it there.
Very intentional, and very important.
This is the point of propaganda filmmaking and photography: to take reality and distort it so the viewer is seeing something that is not actually real. It's intentionally biased filmmaking, meant to shove a certain point of view into the mind of the viewer. It uses the tools of filmmaking to do this. If the viewer were to see the actual Nuremburg rally in 1935, he or she would have seen the cameras placed and being moved from place to place, along with the audience members who were not adoring and worshipping the Nazi leaders. Furthermore, the video itself notes the disorder and instability of the German government was intentionally omitted and downplayed in order to project the (imaginary and untrue) image of a united, unified and all-powerful state, worshipped unquestionably by all present.
It's not that what they shot wasn't real, but rather the effects of what was shot and how vs what wasn't. Even a documentary doesn't just 'objectively' capture some event, there's always editorializing going on, and what is motivating that editorializing needs to be considered.
sure, and it also applies, when I am posting here this video of Scientology Media Producitons - while they are not yet so powerfull in fact, they infiltrate everywhere, even in my country, not only as religious group, but in the form of recruiting "front groups" where people dont even realize they are brainwashed ... but the point is equal - spreading message about weolth and power and "saving the world" movement ... dangerous as hell :-(
this is it.... these days
ruclips.net/video/w5-65i0HMik/видео.html
"They used Christian imagery, not because they shared Christian values, but because they know the feelings that are tied to them"
It sounds sadly very familiar
Chief Rabbi Avner Echoberg-Shekelstein
Dabbling in paganism is so Christian.
I'm actually quite curious. In what way is waging war for Lebensraum, killing Jews, Romani and handicapped people, and, as mentioned, dabbling in paganism 100% christian?
The German population was very christian, but the regime of course doesn't like it if a pastor speaks up against them. The people listened to those pastors and that was way they were so dangerous to the regime. But they would have never dared to move away from Christianity.
But in the end o course they way acted was not christian, as are many politics still today that call themselves that.
To be fair, this invocation of religious imagery is not always a bad thing; Binding of Isaac uses Christian Imagery to create feelings of extremity and fanaticism in some contexts, as well as redemption and faith in other contexts.
Are you kidding me? Those are certified christianity traits lol
Study that religion's history, and you'll see that and more.
12:30 _"A man so blessed by the Gods that even cats take notice of his passing.."_ Good eye. That shot alone perfectly illustrates the absurdity of cinematic propaganda.
"Don't be impertinent," said the King, "and don't look at me like that!"
"A cat may look at a king," said Alice. "I've read that in some book, but I don't remember where."
funny to think about humans going nuts and becoming genocidal while cats are just cats no matter the era
When I saw that I thought "don't you fucking dare debase cats like that you Nazi shit"
Ironically he was scared of cat
As someone who lives in Nuremberg it's always a bit weird seeing scenes from Triumph des Willens. Much of the architecture build by the Nazis is still intact and have been repurposed. Like an old power station in which the outlines of a Reichsadler can still be seen now being used as a Burger King joint. Or the big Zeppelinfeld in which much of the speeches took place in the film, I think now being used to stage rock festivals.
That's like the most awesome middle finger to the Nazis. That important Nazi building? Now a Burger King f*ck you Hitler, taste our consumerism!
Is it really an insult to the Nazis to take an old thing and re-purpose it? That was their specialty.
It's more an insult because it's a fucking burger king.
Cheezecake Me Lol, just what I was thinking.
Not only that, Zeppelinfeld is now the home field of a local American Football team.
I have all kinds of conflicting feelings about that...
"They win so much that the audience gets tired of winning."
Oh boy, a fusion of foreshadowing and flashbacks is what I am feeling right now.
Ladifour This sounds like a paraphrased Trump quote.
I think the 36 people who liked my comment were bright enough to understand that without your explanation...
Ladifour sick burn i guess?
A little bit... just the tip
Well, both America and Nazi Germany have megalomaniacal leaders backed by heavy propaganda, advisers with a low profile, fanatical support. I'm not saying it's the exact same thing, but it's pretty damn close. It might be my fear clouding my judgement but I think it's only a matter of time before shit hits the fan
I did ten years of political PR.
More people should watch this.
useless job
@@voidofspaceandtime4684 I'd say the video kind of proves that the job isn't useless
how's your soul after going through all that?
@@voidofspaceandtime4684 Literally everything in this video and decades of history says it is very, very useful. Just perhaps not a positive force in the world.
Quite recently I started watching Nazi-related videos and films with the current bloodfest happening in my country (The Philippines). I'm starting to see how state-run propaganda happening in this time is one of the worst moments to live through. I lost 2 work collegues, they were shot dead by the police for "suspected" drug dealing, they were just going home from work. My government is firing and arresting politicians who are a "threat" to the state. 7,000 people (including children as young as 6 years old) are murdered by the police for "drugs". The death penalty will be passed, with the age of the criminal to be as young as 9 years old. Me and my friends yell and complain, but the masses praise and prasie our president like a messiah. In their eyes the poor deserves to die because they are worth nothing. Some of my family members agree to the killings even if they know these victims are innocent because its "population control". Poor people dont deserve to live.
We are also experiencing historical revisionism in its most stupid form. 31 years ago MILLIONS of people stormed the streets to oust our President for his abusive dictatorship. Now the current government gave this abusive dictator a state funeral. His family was never tried and still live in luxury. People are now trying to say what happened 30 years ago was a fluke. A lie. 30 years ago my country was liberated from a dictatorship where 10,000 people were missing, tortured, raped, or mutilated. My country LOST SO MUCH MONEY and is still paying for the debt until this day. But people somehow agree that the abusive era of my country was the best and anyone who survived the tortures should move on or are being dramatic.
Marga Esperanza God damn, that's terrible.
The Philippines came to mind when watching this. God I hope your beautiful country finds peace.
That's the American attitude writ large: the poor are expendable fodder, but here they tell us it's because they're lazy, irresponsible, and didn't try hard enough
This might be an interesting view for you then: ruclips.net/video/lMbvtmb79N0/видео.html
Two years late, but, my deepest condolences. I had heard of that evil bastard of a president in the Philippines (and how our president praised him) but didn't know it was that bad...and the fact that your very family is content with the heinous consequences of his reign is also relatable.
I get frustrated with the apathy, content, and approval of my fellow Americans with politicians who are _plainly_ liars, crooks, war criminals, rapists, thieves, narcissists, and idiots. Not even just dragging Trump, I'm talking about 99% of the lot of them. It infuriates me. But I always tell myself, "If only it were a _little_ bit more obvious. If only they saw a _little_ bit more of their evil"...neglecting that, of course, the evidence of their evil is very easily accessible.
But then I hear your story about your country, and I wonder. I wonder how long it would take before the common American populace was apathetic, content, or approving of the murders of children because of their supposed "degeneracy."
And then...
Now I remember clearly. All the unarmed black children, gunned down police, in plain sight, VIDEOTAPED and showcased online. And then I realize: it's already happening.
God, our world is fucked.
Your explanation of the night of long knives, despite being only a few sentences, makes it infinitely more clear than anything taught to me in history class.
Because history classes are too chickenshit to tell you the real reason it happened.
It also doesn’t help with our modern perception of the Nazis as immense and powerful that so much of our film shorthand for villains and villainous regimes is lifted directly from Riefenstahl’s work. From Star Wars to the Hunger Games, when trying to convey the terror of a regime, our directors, cinematographers and production designers lift ideas straight out of the Nazi propaganda handbook, reinforcing the cultural perception of the Third Reich in the process.
Astute and eye-opening.
True. I think in media where the evil regime is entirely fictional this is slightly toned down, but anyone who cannot recognize the fascist nature of the Galactic Empire, and its clear calls to Nazi Germany (for example, through calling their soldiers stormtroopers) is effectively blind to reality. I think the prequels did a really good job of broadening the political commentary of Star Wars to cover fascism in general, even though there are very clear callbacks to Nazi Germany there as well (for example, Emperor Palpatine was initially elected Chancellor Palpatine).
I think the real harm comes from other films where the evil, over-the-top villains are LITERALLY Nazis. I think that does far more harm in portraying the evilness of fascism as unreal, something that could only happen in the past or in fiction. When, in reality, there are various fascistic movements happening rn. Even when these movements are not explicitly fascist, they share enough traits with fascism as an ideology to be considered harmful.
And then you have people thinking how cool the "Empire" aesthetic is. There's definitely a problem there in how that conversation developed.
@@CarlMarxPunk It's the same problem that "Fight Club" had, and largely for the same reasons.
"Fight Club" is a movie that is fundamentally about how the obsessive, near-fetishistic pursuit of a hypermasculine ideal as defined by American cultural norms in the 1990s and 2000s is destructive to others, to the self, and to the world. It discusses themes of toxic, harmful idealisation of machoism; the obliteration of the self in the quest for an impossible ideal; the selfish, self-obsessed desires of the victims of propaganda to "regain" something they had never actually lost. It's a story about the quest for an emotional panacea to fix the pain and frustration caused by a society in crisis.
But, it forgets how many people don't realise that the ideal they're chasing will kill them.
They don't realise that one of the main characters is a man who, after chasing masculinity to the point of injecting steroids to become the "true macho man", developed testicular cancer and required a removal... and that this is a metaphor. His quest for the ideal literally emasculated him. It's not even a SUBTLE metaphor. But all people see is that he's now portrayed as weak and womanly and emotionally "soft" and that he clearly "didn't do manliness right".
They idealise the villain because they don't understand the metaphor.
Very interesting thought. Actually I came here to watch this video, because shots in the movie "Gladiator" seemed to draw visual parallels to Nazi propaganda movies. The shots were desaturated to the point of almost being black and white and showing a enormous army standing in line at the arrival of Phoenix's character. But here I felt as if the visual parallels were somewhat justified, because they were to a certain extent inevitable, due to the Nazi's use of Roman and Greek architecture and symbols.
Oh man, right at the beginning when I heard you say that it wasn't great filmmaking, I knew I was going to love this film.
I sat through it one afternoon in film school in order to see this "horrific yet great work." After which, I said that the true "Triumph of the Will" was that I managed to actually finish the damn thing.
It's a REALLY boring film, let's be real.
stellvia hoenheim You say "celebrate" like I ever even pay attention to those.
@stellvia hoenheim Eh I wasn't actually bothered, I just felt like being snarky.
Nac117
I can only ever manage to watch 10 minutes before I get bored. How did you manage? I thought originally it would be very interesting, but it turned out to be astoundingly boring. So much marching. so much shouting and crowds hailing all the time.
@@joellaz9836 " So much marching. so much shouting and crowds hailing all the time."
That is what people fascinated back then.
"rounding error" is the most chilling way to compare those
A US dollar is a little over a tenth of a millimeter in thickness. If you stacked a million one dollar bills side by side it would cover a length slightly longer than a standard US football field. If you did a billion it would be over 100 km long- not quite as long as Long Island, New York, but almost 2/3rds its length... If you started at the Brooklyn Bridge and started driving east until you hit the mark you'd end up near a place called Yaphank, smack dab in the middle of Suffolk County, miles and miles from the city.
A trillion dollar bill stack would encircle the Earth about one and a half times.
I wouldn't call it chilling, because power and money in and of itself is not a bad thing. Its how its used and the imbalance that it can create if its concentrated too centrally.
What it really does is just gives you a good scope of personal wealth vs collective wealth, and all those nuances inbetween
Further numerical context: a trillion dollars is to a million dollars as ten thousand dollars is to one cent.
Whoa. Didn't realise that, thanks
One Million seconds is just 11 days, while One Billion seconds is 31 years.
And then One Trillion seconds is 31,000 years.
This is still hard to wrap my head around, but slightly less so. Thanks m8
@@LoxBegleyJr Our minds aren't really built for numbers that large. It's very difficult to even contextualize them, let alone trying to comprehend them. 😵
@@Ian_sothejokeworks Kids demonstrate that fact so well when they start learning addition with more than 1 digit. My kids would try to stump us adults with questions like "what's 3 trillion plus 6 trillion" without even thinking it's just 9 followed by 12 zeroes.
Thank you for scaring me with information too relevant for me to ignore.
Please make more videos like this. The best way to counter propaganda is to analyze and critique its function. We're living in a world where fact and fiction are slowly becoming horrifyingly intertwined.
@Star Trek Theory If that's a joke, then please make it clear. There's all too many people that actually believe this
when you say " fact and fiction are becoming horrifyingly intertwined" I definitely am inclined to agree... although I feel like we are probably talking about two different and opposing sets of fiction.
@@YadonTheCat So you aren't paying attention to who owns Hollywood, gotcha
Lostin Thegarden yeah, you have a playlist called anti-white propaganda with a video about BLM. Fuck your racist bullshit. You think racism is fiction? You think black people not getting murdered is unamerican? Fuck that.
Ooh, I wonder who you could be implying! I'm sure you are neither an antisemite or a xenophobe, of COURSE!@@hegeliandetective1034
The answer being that, no, "they" don't actually own Hollywood, or a majority of Hollywood. Some of Hollywood, sure, but... what does that even mean at that point, unless you want them to... own nothing? Which, of course, we know you do. Your guy literally talks about non-whites and non-Christians "poisoning the blood" of the nation, which.... is just using the exact same language as Hitler. Right before he started to genocide the same people you're dehumanizing here.
as an aside: those shots of Denethor from "Return of the King" which you show around 7:45 are pretty evocative of "Saturn Devouring His Son" by Goya, esp. in the context of that part of the film.
I hadn’t made that connection before but now that you say it, it makes sense.
I'm from Germany and just now I finally understood why so many depictions of facism in media supposedly inspired by Nazi culture feature all that weird marching. It never really was part of my mental picture of them and somewhat confused me, being so predominant in depictions. So thank you for clearing up that mystery.
unfortunately in many other parts of the world, too many people are not even aware of that usage in media in the first place, so they cant even recognize why the various images of facist imagery or themes in media are bad fly completely over millions of peoples heads
readings and deconstructions like these are so goddamn important. so many people are pushed to discomfort because they dont want to face the mere idea of nazis or facism since it disrupts their entertainment
germans always the least educated on their own history. lol.
Same really, also a German. The pictures that come to my mind when i think about the war are the bombed out ruins of the cities, the direct result people had warned the country about as far back as 1925.
As a person who took media studies in college this is welcome insightful understanding of the film. From the start where you explained how the film's techniques were not new and this was in itself propaganda was a revelation to how Triumph was first communicated to me.
a quick comment on the distinction is magnitude between corporation propaganda and state propaganda : it's relevant comparing american global corporations and us state, but for example, it could be more debatable if comparing a smaller, poor nation's state revenue to the advertisement power of a multinational company which operates in it.
idrils think about how dictators of extremely poor countries can become absurdly rich, and you get an idea of the power of a motivated state apparatus to spend money on shit.
vaiyt +
Dont forget that the USA's actual amount of taxes available for public services is minuscule compared to the oodles of compulsory contributions spent on tanks, jets, ships, bombs and the 800+ military bases around the globe.
The distinction between influence of a state and a corporation of comparable budget is neoliberal propaganda.
The big difference is that the government in a poor country, regardless of how poor, they have, by virtue of being a national government, the power to force a multinational corporation out of their country.
This is rarely done because they would fear having so little money that they starve, but it has been done in places like Cuba.
Ending with a link to your cute kitten scored with upbeat guitars was very conscientious of you.
Minor nitpick: 1934 the German army was still called "Reichswehr" ("Imperial defense"), not "Wehrmacht."
while we're at it: I think there weren't yet operational concentration camps in 1935 or am I wrong in my time line?
tbretten dachau was opened pretty soon after the "Machtergreifung", i think
it seems you are right! thanks for correcting me L Seb, I learned something today : )
nobletea 3400 again: dachau was opened in 1933. mainly for the internment of dissidents, like communists
Thank you, something felt slightly off. Not off to the point of feeling wrong, but a back of the brain "This feels different from what I know, but why?"
That ending is really haunting. Beautiful and chilling and just a complete eye opener. I can honestly say that I will view things much more subjective now than I did before.
Damn you're intelligent.
As a Romani anti fascist activist in the US you have no idea how happy it made me to hear you actually mention us as victims of the Nazis since we're so often left out of that discussion here
Keep up the fight brother!
The Romani are the hidden victims of fascism, not just in Germany but worldwide. Know that us British anti fascists have your back!
As an American I was shocked to learn how much anti-Romani sentiment is still out there in the world too. Should have figured. Prejudice never goes away overnight. Stay well.
May the Romani see the end of their subjugation! 161/45
@@Narokkurai. Bet your tone would change upon seeing hungarian, where they burn more money for bling than food, immigrants get paid better than who lived and worked here all their lives! And, being jerks about that too.
@@DeVolksrepubliek. What subjigation?
Strong video.
Agreed
he has many strong videos
Too strong
The idea of the Nazis co-opting religion and science and perverting them to fit their cause is pretty disconcerting in this current political climate.
Great video. And even better, an important video.
Yeah, Dan seems to have had hrmmm...fun? with relevent implications to today...notably the false statistics and the scale on which states can spread propaganda.
And most of all...winning all the time and geting tired of winning.
Also stuff like making your ideas seem more universal then they really are. That line about how they excluded the actual German army from the film and made the demonstrably smaller SS look neverending really does bring a lot into question. There were way more of them than Nazi's at that point, they could have stopped that.
It reminded me about how Trump lost the popular vote...
Nah, that is NOTHING like what was going on back then. What you're talking about barely even is a blip. It might as well not even exist.
Christ, why are conservatives so aggressively horrible at every opportunity? We get it. Your positions are indefensible in any world where good exists.
Somebody needs to find Jay's strawman and burn it. Then we can stop pretending it's a threat.
i think that last sentiment you gave us just as the video ended is quietly profound
Last line fucked me up
Thank God for the cat at the end.
Thank you! In film school, I was so sick of hearing about what a genius Leni Riefenstahl was.
I had similar thoughts when first watching it. How none of the techniques were innovative, that she just had a huge budget and lots of "extras". I've always said that Triumph was the propaganda equivalent of Anthony & Cleopatra.
And a big fat middle finger to anyone who tried to whitewash Riefenstahl as a non-nazi. Anyone who thought Hitler was harmless by 1934 was an idiot at best. She signed up for a SECOND propaganda film. AFTER the night of the long knives!
don't think of triumph of the will when you think of the nazis. think of their organisation being destroyed by the allied forces, and think of a cowering sad man killing himself while berlin is liberated from his regime. the image the nazis want you to remember is their power, so instead, remember how they lost it.
And remember the people they killed. The children who were starved, the children who were shot. That is what demonization of whole categories of people leads to.
@stellvia hoenheim nope
ok , how did gypsies steal the german money? they got demonised and killed as well or the disabled who were the first to get killed . or is what you are saying an absolute pile of apologist crap trying to justify the mass killing of people for no other reason than they didnt fit in with the new way .
unfortunately you have been indoctrinated with the victor’s version of the story.
henge hey man, i agree with you. But no need to be rude and condescending. It’s helping your message
I'm so glad you often end your videos with a shot of your adorable cat, that last line left me cold.
This was an absolutely fascinating dissection of this film and propaganda overall. I'm so glad I found your videos. I always feel I learn a lot from you.
Keep doing what you're great at, and have a lovely day.
Rarely do I comment on videos, but this has blown my mind in so many ways. Especially the last frame, and to know that the Nazi propaganda works till this day...
+Chief Rabbi Avner Echoberg-Shelelstein
"Nazi stronk, Nazi win war"
+Chief Rabbi Avner Echoberg-Shekelstein
Molotov-Ribbentrop.
It's very obvious, from you username alone, that you have "studied" National Socialism for years, meaning anything you say about history or politics is especially worthless. All fascists are liars.
+Chief Rabbi Avner Echoberg-Shekelstein
Tell me more about how in the true, non-Jewish history the glorious Nazi's secretly triumphed. Is Hitler presiding over his Aryan utopia in the basement of the Reichstag to this day?
+Chief Rabbi Avner Echoberg-Shekelstein
It's pretty amazing how the Polish waged war in Germany by forcing genocidal Nazi armies to invade and annex half their country
Why should I trust a rabbi? You are probably just giving me Israeli talking points.
that last line and that pause were extremely effective
That last point really got me, and in light of this I will be making an active effort to change my mental image of the nazis to a lonely teenage conscript driving a horse-drawn carriage full of broken Tiger II transmissions while absolutely buggered on amphetamines. Which, in addition to hopefully countering the propaganda, is probably truer to history.
Lmao I liked it
The exclusion of the camps and the racism and the purges are arguably just as important as what they included. The point of ideology is not just in determining what to do based on certain facts, but also to decide which facts are even worth considering. As Abby Thorn said, "Ideology is like jazz: it's about the notes you _don't_ play. […] the whole point is you don't realize they're not being played because their absence is assumed to be natural."
The point of those exclusions was(/is) to say that all those atrocities were simply the right thing to do - so right and so normal that they're not even worth mentioning - and I think that's probably the most insidious part of the whole thing.
I think a part of it is also in how facists are obsessed with aesthetics. To even consider showing people they view as subhuman, even to revel in their deaths, is an ugly disgusting waste of film.
It's notable just how boring Triumph of the Will is. Like, even going purely by cinematography, the Expressionist films being made in the years before the Nazis are definitely better-looking (and absolutely more interesting).
Well, it is a documentary about their national party convention. Of course it's boring as hell.
well yeah? its 1. documentary and therfore not suüposed to have the structure we have of the hero shit ad second.. one element of propaganda is its repetition. It has to be easy to grasp even for the slowest of thinkers and then it needs to be repeated agaon and again to hammer in how nice the bg event is, how great a group, how uplifiting the feeling to be part of a bigger whole.
I think that's hat dan is missing- that all those kow techniques were used together (which was unusual for that time) not to suggest that nazis had money enough to put 150 cameras around the parteitag and have leni organize and do the whole choreography- but that they were a big group that only wants the best (and no mention of genocide.directly)for all and that its so nice to be a part of a big powerful group..
also dan for fucks sake please fucking look how to fucking pronounce those names..
its röhm, the ö is like the o in word. not like the O on tone.
and the I in triumph is pronounced like the ea in dear.
"trea-umpf."
littlemissleeches Documentaries can be pretty entertaining if done right. Though this was obviously before we really figured out how to make documentaries entertaining. Imagine what it would be like if it had been made today though. Probably a bit like those History Channel "documentaries".
I really think the boredom is part of the point: if you purposely bore people to mental numbness while simultaneously screaming at them "OMG THIS IS THE GREATEST THING EVER LOOK HOW AMAZING IT IS", then they start to doubt themselves and their own ability to tell art from sh**. Once you can dislocate their own internal critical apparatae then you can get them to accept whatever critical judgements you tell them, b/c *obviously* you know what *art* is much better than they do.
Which is why they decried expressionist art as "degenerate"
That art was antithetical to their purposes so it had to be delegitimized
great video. as a german film student people brought up this film and its director to me many times as like a positive or like aspirational example of female film makers and there is something so gross about it and im glad you managed to succinctly say exactly why
it's not an "aspirational example" of effective propaganda because.... it's exactly an excellent example of effective propaganda? every word this man said was an implicit endorsement lol
@@blank4227 No, what Dan was saying was that while it might be effective propaganda, its otherwise boring movie that's only notable feature was how much money was spent in making it.
@@Estarile you contradict yourself. if it is actually was effective propaganda (and Dan is scared by this, hence the reason to make the video) then it has obviously has more notable features than money spent.
And of course, if one of its notable features was its effectiveness, then... haha!
@@blank4227 your not making sense.
@@Estarile You can break sentences up into smaller parts whenever you see a comma, and ask yourself if they make sense.
How would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast yesterday?
Thanks for addressing the fact that "Triumph of Will" isn't actually a "great film." It's boring as shit really.
I've tried to watch it so many times, but I always only last 15 minutes then I start skipping to better more interesting scenes, but there isn't any so I just give up again.
Clams Cartel While most of the film is either striking framing with nothing much going on or just boring, Hitler's speech is hypnotic in a legitimately unsettling way where it is clearly meant to be rousing, and the crowd response makes it scarier given that, even setting aside who he is, they are cheering on a foamy-mouthed man literally screaming about rigor mortis.
+Clams Cartel It is boring to us modern viewers because we are accustomed to very exciting films.
+Clams Cartel Moreover, the taste in music has changed.
Greatness isn't based on your personal enjoyment, moron. It doesn't depend on how much fun you had with it. It's the competence of the techniques on display, mastery of the language, and more importantly the impact of the work. This is still one of the most impactful works of the past century (even if it was flamed by the people who made it), a prime example of its field, and a prime example of the real potential this medium can be used for, therefore elevating it. Leni took what came before and heightened it to an extent never really felt before, or at least not since Birth of a Nation 30 years earlier - even then, this was a significant refinement of it. Even if you find a monument boring, that doesn't change it being a monument.
There's an element of subtext you missed in that LotR scene: Denethor is a coward indulging in shallow hedonism while Faramir sacrifices himself to protect someone who doesn't deserve that protection. Metaphorically, symbolically, Denethor is cannibalizing Faramir.
I have to admit: The Night of the Long Knives is a badass name for such a horrible idea.
That's pretty much fascism all the way to the ground.
"Well it sounds cool, so let's do that."
"But it's awful!"
"Yes, but it ~sounds cool~."
Really? Oh crap!
Conservapedia had an ideological purge as well. RationalWiki deemed it The Night of Blunt Knives in mockery.
As a child I thought that the Kristalnacht sounded so nice "A Crystal Night? How poetic!"
That's why AC/DC made a song with that title.
There are definitely some films originally made as propaganda that hold up artistically. Early Soviet films are the obvious reference point, but there are others. Some of the WWII-era British patriotic films are incredible. Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger's 49th Parallel and The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, plus Went The Day Well? (adapted from a story by Graham Greene) are particularly good. They do their intended job of making you want to fight Nazis to the bitter end, but they're also really well-crafted, compelling, intelligently-made stories.
Oh, "Went the Day Well?"! That one goes unusually dark for a propaganda piece, doesn't it?
And it was directed by Alberto Cavalcanti, poor man!
Born in Brazil, made a modicum of success in England, was invited to direct his country's major (coughcough only cough cough) studio... only for him to be met with a burgeoning group of nationalistic experimental directors who thought he was way too "foreign" and square, so they hounded him day and night, sabotaged his productions, defamed him and eventually exposed to the press the fact that he was gay, in a country and time where that could (and would) destroy a man's carreer, so Cavalcanti got extremely depressed, left Brazil for good and never recovered.
All that only for the studio to go bankrupt a hot second after he left because those avantgard movies they were so protective of were not paying the bills, anyway. (sigh)
btw, Dead of Night is amazing and Cavalcanti's part in that is a classic.
I had a class on the subject and did a similar essay to this one but regarding the graphic design of Nazi propaganda...they "invented" nothing, they just plastered their propaganda everywhere.
You can find nearly identical ads for beer, cola, and cigarettes and as we all know the alcohol, soft drink, and tobacco industries have done consistently well over the past century.
Glad to see you stayed critical in your essay here; I've heard way too many people fail to be critical of this film. >_>
@FusionY7 but all the achieved was death and failure which is basically Nothing
Funny you mention beer and cola companies. Before the second world war, swastikas were used a lot by coca cola, and by a lot of beer companies on their bottles. Google "coca cola swastika". See the keyrings/badges they used to sell as merch in the shape of a swastika. I'm not making this up. Swastikas were widely used in the west until world war II.
@@duffman18 And? The Nazi just stole the swastika for themselves and tainted the symbol, they didn't invent it.
So this was great, but I went on to rewatch your breakdown of Suicide Squad after this, and while I love the political bent you've been going on lately ...
Are you familiar with Archer? The FX comedy-spy cartoon? Because there's this thing that Archer has mastered, and that's the edit as a gag. They do it all the time. Setup on one side of the cut, punchline on the other, in a completely different context. AND the pace and story stay coherent. Sometimes it's visual, sometimes it's in the dialogue, and sometimes a verbal setup AND a distinct visual setup will BOTH pay off independently of one another on the other side of the cut, to the point where there are so many gags that you lose track (rewarding re-watching). Arrested Development did similar.
I'm not 100% up on everything you've ever done, but I don't recall seeing you do a thing on editing of comedy/editing AS comedy.
You know what, I haven't done a video on the edit AS comedy, and I agree, I should.
Archer, Hot Fuzz, Venture Brothers, lots of great examples out there.
Every Frame A Painting did a very good video on Edgar Wright and editing in comedies.
Wright edits funny images together, and he absolutely uses his sense of comic timing to help the edit contribute to rather than slow down the humor. The cuts have to be timed right to keep the laugh rolling, and yeah, he's a master at that, because he's got a fantastic sense of timing. But e.g. Wright's little mini-montage establishing shots that he does - obviously they're funny, and the edits are part of those, but the humor of those comes more from the novelty of the technique or a funny look on Simon Pegg's face. I think I'm getting at something else. Or at least a broader category that includes that.
It's this idea of this very fundamental winding of the edit into the fabric of the bit. Think more along the lines of writing a joke that requires a cut as opposed to editing funny images together with good comic timing. Those places where the cut - or the lack of a cut - IS the joke, i.e. the two frames or scenes side-by-side IS what gets the laugh. Or the laugh comes from the FAILURE to cut - you sit there looking awkwardly at the screen, and you feel just as uncomfortable as the characters. The Office and Parks and Rec did that all the time.
Because a cut is fundamentally a jarring thing, it can (if you do it right) plus-up the humor by tossing in that little bit of extra *hnngh* - the cut throws you off balance so the joke catches you even harder. Archer to me is the ur-example of this, but I'm sure Dan knows of plenty more.
Cutting funny shots together in a funny way like Wright does, which I agree is great and worthwhile, is only part of what I'm getting at. Archer in particular - the way they cut dialogue and image together so that they can take you half way around the world in the middle of a sentence - a joke, even - and you don't miss a beat plot-wise AND you still laugh. Like, that's INCREDIBLY hard to do - I can't think of too many examples of that.
Every Frame a Painting I thought was more about ... ahem ... the frame than it was about the edit.
I was thinking about this overnight (and also watching some of my favorite episodes of Archer):
Un Chien Tangerine from season 4 has a great example of what I'm talking about: they set up a bit where Cheryl - Mallory's receptionist - gets a call from Lana; Lana wants to talk to Mallory. Mallory tells Cheryl "I'm not here," which makes Cheryl really uncomfortable. Part of Cheryl's character established across the series is that she's very much *not all there*. So Mallory explains that "I'm not here" is meant as a way to get rid of the call to Lana. Cheryl is incredulous - it's obvious she's no longer sure whether Mallory is real or not - but she goes along.
Fast forward a couple scenes and Lana is fuming that Mallory didn't take her call. Archer tries to reassure her - they're in Tangiers, so the home office is five hours behind them. Lana snaps: "Oh please. She's totally there." Then: mash cut to Cheryl spying on Mallory through a mirror to see if she /really is/ there.
There are dozens, maybe hundreds, of examples of this kind of joke that requires the edit to pay off. The two scenes required for setup and punchline happen concurrently, but halfway around the world from each other.
I think Wright's Scott Pilgrim is chock-full of these kinds of edits.
I am almost certain that at the beginning you saying “So this video is by popular request” and then a big sigh making it seem like a dutiful obligation is a subtle wink to a very effective form of propaganda and I love it and this video and you very much
THANK YOU. I remember I’m history our teacher said that even though it was racist, Triumph of the Will was revolutionary in filmmaking and I’ve always called bullshit on that and it’s very gratifying seeing others agree when my entire class thought I was being a dumb sjw (I was also the only female in the class too 👀)
We watched this 'movie' in a high-school film study class. It was boring and pathetic. It had no particular effect on me, other than making me think the nazis were superficial and obsessed with optics more than substance and complexity.
I still feel this is an accurate conclusion.
I can't help but hear in undertones of American exceptionalism here. Especially insofar as the concept of casual expensiveness. Early in your video you provide context as to the financial leverage certain groups have, but reference the most expensive film ever; one of the Pirates movies. The title of "Most Expensive Movie Ever Produced" is one that's been handed down and lands on a new film every few years or so. Given your study, care, and expertise on editing and how film works I can't help but think this is intentional on some level? America's capitalist propaganda machine always asserting itself as casually capable of enormous expenditure, and only for entertainment! The posture that this pushes to the fore seems pretty evident.
Thanks for another excellent video, always looking forward to more from you and my other film nerd channels.
you dimmed and used over head lighting like on an interrogation to ensure the that "this is not a typical subject I would choose but you guys talked me into it". You couldn't help yourself but play a little bit Hahahaha.
Cem, Tamam ! astute observation.
You are a master writer. Your skill in crafting a narrative that builds and weaves and climaxes is what makes your videos so compelling. Great work!
>convinces itself its the most powerful military state in all of europe
>fights one (1) war
>loses
Yeah, a world war against 4 super powers...
@@helmortkuper2626 but shouldnt the most powerful military state in all of europe be able to match 4 superpowers, I mean they are the most powerful military state in all of europe ;3
@@just-mees no they should not
>convinces itself its the most powerful ideology ever
>loses one (1) war
>all of its deeply wounded foes quake in their boots at the mere mention of them, and at any tiny potential hint of its return
>to this day the world is full of an ever-growing despair that its eternal return is inevitable
wow
@@blank4227 did you just not watch this video? the fear of the return of nazism is from decades of consumption of art like star wars inspired by the depiction of fascism in triumph des willens. the nazis elicit fear because we have institutionalized an understanding based on taking their word at face value. what people are usually more scared of when they elicit nazism is its proponents and the proponents of fascism as a whole’s propensity for political violence against marginalized groups. other than the chinese and russians fighting for ideological purity, who are democidal rather than genocidal, no other political cohort has come close in attempting genocide, lest by emulating fascist methodologies from the 30s and 40s.
10:40 "Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluation the force of the enemy."
This sentence makes so much sense given current events in Europe.
Not really, I know you're thinking about Russia.
@@themeerofkats8908 yes really, Russia is playing by the Nazi rulebook
@@MaticTheProto not really, and that's what makes Putin so hard to deal with. He is "fascistic", but has learned a lot from other recent "humanitarian interventions".
Russia is using the nazi and us playbooks at the same time.
Honestly it takes a certain "Triumph of the will" just to watch something as dull as that film.
The Soviets were so much better at propaganda, Eisenstein could direct circles around Riefenstahl
Yeah and americans are even better as of late, most can longer recognize their propaganda.
I enjoy watching Dan's beard slowly salt and pepper over the years.
It's it nice?
LotR is my favorite series; Return of the King is my favorite movie of all time. And I was today years old when I understood the connection between Denethor and the orcs.
Excellent video. There's another propaganda film that I find interesting called Went the Day Well?, which was made by the British during World War 2. What I find interesting is that as a narrative, it's almost functionally indistinct from a lot of the thrillers that came out around that era, including Hitchcock's The Lady Vanishes which came out about two decades prior. The premise is that Nazis parachute into Britain and hide in a little country village pretending to be British soldiers. The villagers discover them and try to get the word out to the British army, and the film ends with the villagers besieged by the Nazi soldiers before the British army finally arrives to save them.
Comparing Went the Day Well? to Triumph of the Will shows how important context is when it comes to the way propaganda is framed. The Nazis needed to lie about their strength and unity in order to legitimise themselves, but the British didn't need that in WW2. They were actually pretty united against a powerful existential threat from across the channel, and the propaganda honed in on that reality to create a sense of pride in their struggle.
Wow, first time I've seen someone mention "Went the Day Well"!
It is a movie by Alberto Cavalcanti, a Brazilian born director (he also directed the most famous segment in British horror classic "Dead of Night" in the 40's, in which a ventriloquist dummy may or may not be alive - a trope that keeps on giving to this day, lol).
"Went the Day Well" was, in fact, not very well received, for what I've learned, because it was seen as chilling but also a tad *too* grim for audiences at the time.
Poor Cavalcanti had a lot of troubles throughout his carrer. His eviction from Brazil, in particular, is kind of a shameful bit in our cinematic history, and was a big part in the death of Brazilian cinema (it took a few decades for it to be reborn).
Very good explanation of a concept that is important to be aware of, and it is unfortunate that it has regained this importance.
Also have to commend your german pronunciation, though there are a couple minor mistakes.
Minor mistakes can also just be called an accent lol. It usually takes decades to eliminate any trace of an accent even in a language you have fluency in
thought provoking, well thought out. flawlessly put together. your video essays just keep getting better and better. that pause at the end was so great. wouldn't change a thing.
I've watched this one so many times, and the ending still hits like a brick to the face.
Thank you for enduring the emotional load. That was a brilliant essay. It was insightful and eloquent. You consistently offer quality work and this video is no exception. Your grasp of and ability to unpack complex ideas is extraordinary. I salute your clarity, attention to detail and commitment to intellectual honesty. Please keep up the good work. I, for one, will remain a member of your audience for a long time to come.
that was amazing I learned more here than what history taught me in high school. Your ending message was amazing and your silence was palpable. love it man!
How broadly applicable is this definition of propaganda and narrative -- that is, the demand for a constant upward trajectory, unending heroism, etc.? Consider Capra's "Why We Fight" -- his answer to Riefenstahl -- which not only uses the sonorous scope of the Nazi's films against them but paints a picture of a reluctant America facing its call to action:
"We hate war. We know that in war it’s the common man who does the paying, the suffering, the dying. We bend over backwards to avoid it. But let our freedoms be endangered, and we'll pay and suffer and fight to the last man. That is the America, that is the way of living, for which we fight today."
This gets into a deeper subject of value sets. Why We Fight still operates on this non-arc, but its framed around a different set of values, namely the much more Protestant salt-of-the-earth self-image. It still routinely frames America as an unstoppable force, though by virtue of hard work, determination, and sacrifice, in contrast to the Nazi value set of inherent superiority, aggression, and naked strength.
A big part of what makes Why We Fight seem a little less absurd is the fact that the Nazis were actually a real military threat, as opposed to an invented enemy, and in retrospect were some of history's greatest monsters. It's still propaganda, but Capra didn't need to bend the truth very far to hit the mark.
The more direct answer would be to look at what 'heroism' means in the context of the culture producing the propaganda. One thing propaganda is actually great for is figuring out what a culture thinks of itself, what it figures its values are.
A small correction on “they tried to turn the numerous German churches into an organ of the party through the Confessional Church.” The Confessional Church was exactly the opposite of that. It was an anti-Nazi Protestant movement in Germany that taught against Nazi ideology and the Nazi takeover of churches. Especially want to correct that since the leaders of the Confessional Church (including Dietrich Bonhoeffer) were arrested, tortured, and/or murdered by the Nazis, and it would be extremely sad if people mistakenly believed they worked with the Nazis. The Faithful Spy is a fantastic and beautiful graphic novel that gives a quick overview of the Confessional Church and Nazi Germany.
So Triumph of Will was the first shitty big stupid expensive moneysink blockbuster that didn't even make its money back?
I doubt it was about the money and we probably don't know if it made its money back.
Didn't make its money back but that doesn't mean it wasn't successful. Certainly made it easier for people to swallow the deaths of millions of people
Ndesire ... I was making a joke, guys.
"Intolerance" is generally seen as the first big expensive moneysink blockbuster that didn't even make its money back. Though that one wasn't nearly as stupid.
As far as trolls go, this is just boring. Not even at the level of lame, just boring.
Your writing is really good and it's only gotten better.
This made me subscribe. You put to words some feelings in my head (particularly around borrowing legitimacy through the trappings of grand history) but also really surprised me and opened my eyes regarding other aspects of propaganda. And the whole thing is so cogent and fluid and evocative. Extremely well done, thank you for this.
"By popular request"
If true, ironic.
If not, clever.
If both? Applause.
What I think is the most scary, is that in school, when learning about Nazi Germany, we still use ALL their terms, the annexation of Austria is der Anschluss, the killing of the SA leadership is still the Röhm-Putsch/ Röhm coup (although Röhm didn't revolt), the Nazis' rise to power is good ol' Nazi language die Machtergreifung, etc. etc.
Deponensvogel True that! We were talking about it in school and it's quite bizarre to hear about Nazi-Germany and their defeat in German language. Ironic even!
This is a fascinating dissertation not just on the film and it's visual symbolism, but also a deeper discussion on the nature of propaganda and the 'motis' in film technique. Well done!
Brillient video man, just discovered you. Amazing work.
I really appreciate how in the description he subverts clickbait titles completely and has a satirical clickbait title but you actually have to be interested enough to read the description to see it, this is the first time I’ve noticed a clever subversion so give me some slack.
This video is an incredibly valuable teaching tool. I find myself coming back to it to think about the aesthetics of propaganda, power, religion, to name just a few salient points it covers. And the end is still chilling.
lesson learned: return of the king is really good
My wife just linked this to me with a "We HAVE to watch this!" and I got to smugly be like "Of course hon, I've been subbed to Dan for months!"
ok you have a wife WE GET IT
There is nothing wrong with being lonely Phobe.
Esther haha you saw right thru me!
thanks for the kind words.
I finally got my fiance to watch him 2 nights ago, she really enjoys him but her short attention spam can't really keep up with what he's saying for more than 7 or 8 minutes. Only when we both watch the video together, or it's the shadow of the colossus video, does she sit through the entire thing.
Art Souls you have a wife? BOI dat ghey
Is it odd to find the thought that _Triumph of the Will_ is _not_ seminal or innovative to be comforting? I already knew that a horrifyingly large amount of Nazi propaganda was already successful in a memetic sense, but it's nice to know that people who only want to study film don't need to subject themselves to as much problematic material to understand film history.
I know.
If only Birth of a Nation also turned out to be derivative, we'd be set tbh.
Just the Coolest Dude Yo buddy, I have some good news for you.
@@justthecoolestdudeyo9446 It is. Feature Length movies were already a thing. Close up shots were already a thing. Birth of a Nation did nothing but popularize it.
@@ysgatora9287 I'm very glad to know that!
I shouldn't be surprised that people with such a conservative, rigidly hierarchical view of the world would be unlikely to come up with a ton of innovation
@@justthecoolestdudeyo9446 If you're looking for direct rebuttals of BoaN as "seminal cinema," Kyle Kallgren from Brows Held High has a good one, and Fritzi Kramer from the blog Movies Silently has written about it (including the "first movie shown at the White House" canard).
Jerry pulled a fast one on us boys, and we helped him do it.
sometimes i watch a random video from this channel just to listen to dan talking
I watched Triumph of the Will last year in preparation for watching The Great Dictator, as I knew it was the primary inspiration for Charlie Chaplin to satirize the Nazis. I expected it to be horrifying, to feel revolted, and chilled, and to dwell on the foreboding parallels with today, etc.
And, yeah, I felt that... For about the first ten minutes. After that you just get bored because you're waiting for the marching to end. But it doesn't. By twenty minutes in, a new sort of dread sets in as you begin to suspect that this is what the entire movie is going to be. By thirty minutes, you have realized that's exactly what it is: endless marching sequences, interrupted by a few very unsurprising Hitler speeches. And that's when you decide to either switch it off or open your favorite bourbon and try to power through.
Triumph of the Will isn't moving today, if it ever was to the general public. It's boring. You have to be a Nazi already to enjoy it, because they're the only people with enough specific head trauma to find videos of dudes marching for minutes on end to be interesting.
I can second that reference to The Occult Roots of Nazism. Well worth reading. You might also like to check out Black Sun by the same author, particularly relevant to the recent rise of the alt-right.
Hitler regarded he occult as nonsense. He allowed Himmler to indulge in it because it didn't affect his main responsibilities very much.
"They win so much that the audience gets tired of winning" - I heard something similar recently, during a particular election, if I remember correctly.
Many years ago I visited London and often saw ads for the bookmaking firm of Margolies and Ridley. "You win when you lose at Margolies and Ridley!". Maybe they had a gimmick where you earned points just for betting.
Years later it became the central slogan of Republicanism in the US.
Ohhh this is gonna be good. Love your work and videos, Dan :)
that last twenty seconds genuinely affected me
Anyone else here from potential history?
anyone else here from communism, monarchy, and fascism? because that's what the three arrows actually target.
Sorta! I discovered Folding Ideas long before PH, but it was PH's response to this video that led me to it.
@@voidofspaceandtime4684 ? I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. The three arrows DO signify opposition to these ideas, but it's unclear from your comment and its tone whether you think they signify opposition or support.
This video made me love your work even more. I'm sooo greatful to all your patrons for supporting you when some of us can't
Thank you for this. Thank you. Art matters, even now. Looking critically at art matters, especially now. We can't stop saying this. We can't stop thinking critically about it.
I don't know if this joke was intentional in the editing of the video, but having Floof show up in black & white right after you say "This right here is exactly the image they wanted you to think of when you thought of them" is oddly hilarious.
I was watching this with a housemate nearby and he turned to look at the screen exactly as it cut to Floof and he went "a cat?"
The cat at the end was a test people. That adorable pose was exactly how the cat wanted us to think of it and If you clicked that link to more adorable cat behaviours you've learned nothing.
Hi, I've been a fan of this channel for a while. I was rewatching this video and it struck me that you have a talent for conveying this kind of serious topic in a way that sticks with the viewer and that doesn't fall into flippancy. I think this might be the best video you've made. Perhaps you'd consider making more videos about films of historical significance and not only about contemporary cinema?
00:38 Absolutely fascinating. Is this also the case with Birth of a Nation or was D.W. Griffith's film genuinely revolutionary?
Fascinating indeed, but as you yourself say "you should be highly suspicious of any messaging surrounding propaganda".
Could anyone provide sources to the claim that "triumph of the will" is not a triumph of filmmaking?
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_des_Willens#Nachwirkungen makes mention of Riefenstahl's supposedly new techniques being done before, but doesn't go into much detail, lacks citations and only links other Wikipedia pages...
The video you're commenting on goes over it. All of the techniques used in the film had been done before, it was the scale that was different. Cameras in cars had been done, cameras all over a motorcade not so much. Cameras filming parades had been done, cameras filmings a parade from dozens of angles not so much. Aerial and tracking shots had been done, the amount included in Triumph of the Will not so much.
And all of this use of already established film techniques being done on a larger scale than ever before is because Nazis threw loads of cash at the film, not of any filmmaking triumph.Calling it a triumph of filmmaking was just what the Nazis wanted people to think because then it is respected in the then decades old institiution of revolutionary German filmmaking. It would make the Nazis part of the giants that we stand on the shoulders of.
Griffith was definitely revolutionary as a director but most of his actual innovations came about in his numerous shorts made before BoaN, which was notable mainly for combining all of these things into one of the first feature-length films. This was one of my Film Studies professor's reasoning for showing some of Griffith's shorts instead of BoaN, so we could learn about about the innovations minus needing to sidetrack the class with lengthy discussions on racism.
Birth of a Nation by Griffith is mostly remembered because the uproar surrounding it launched film-making from being mostly regarded as a proletarian line of work to an actual industry. The movie itself is adequately made, but when it comes to storytelling, one must consider what is being told as much as how it's being told. In that regard, it's a positively terrible movie. Griffith's talent in filmmaking was mirrored by European filmmakers at the time, and his advancements in the art of film itself pale in comparison to those of artists such as Eisenstein and Vertov, who came just a few years later.
I personally regard the film as propaganda. While it's clear that Griffith himself was an opportunist intent on creating controversy for the sake of generating interest in film, the film itself was later used as a recruitment tool by the KKK in a revival of their movement. In that regard I see the fact that it is still regarded as a cornerstone in the history if film, and all the praise surrounding it, as part of the propaganda, and indicative of the latent racism present in American culture.
Wow, fascinating stuff! Weirdly enough as a German AND a historian, I'm not very familiar with National Socialist film and propaganda - possibly because my various school curriuculum experiences with the topic relied a lot more on reading material than audio-visual media (I think maybe much like "Mein Kampf" is still legally forbidden to be printed and even owned, and therefore not even consumed in an editorialized version, we eschew a lot of visual primary sources as well, because the imagery just hits too close to home...). So this was a very educational and interesting excursion in that direction. Thank you for smoothly and competently tackling this important and delicate topic! Also, just to let you know, I've been working my way through your editing and film theory/review vids from Suicide Squad backwards and they're amazing!
"As a German AND a historian" you are out of touch. "Mein Kampf" is printed in Germany since 2015 and never was illegal in the first place.
Yes! Thank you for this video! I got into this channel about a month ago and after some of the minisodes about language and the depth/sensitivity to culture with which Fight Club was discussed, I was hoping we'd get a video essay on propaganda. I'm subscribing to this channel for sure.
For anyone interested in a dated but frighteningly prophetic look at propaganda in the abstract, and with very specific examples (specifically surrounding the world wars), check out Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes by Jacques Ellul (1962). Dude was the real deal when it came to dealing with Nazi stuff. He wrote a broader book very in the school of thought that informs "They Live" called The Technological Society as well.
Probably the most unsettling conclusion I’ve ever heard.
Just subscribed. Thank you for tackling such a difficult incendiary topic. From another RUclips channel they referenced Triumph and I was interested in its place in history. It has proved hard to find someone other then Rodger Ebert who helped me understand the significance and shortcomings of Triumph.
Well said. Treatment of "Birth of a Nation" in conventional film histories is another instance. You can still read a ton of that stuff and never learn what the damned thing is ABOUT, or its influence on how The South was romanticized and nostalgia-fied through the early-mid-20th C (and not just in Gone With The Wind) during the same period the Confederate statues were erected across the South and the KKK was practically mainstreamed, all in response to the rise of the Black civil rights movement.
This was highly enlightening, I was a bit floored by the last sentence. Props dude!
Taking a propah gander at propaganda.
I just watched you yesterday and I'm addicted to your videos, very useful. I'm mexican and the subs help a lot, thank you so much for the effort.
The whole spiel you give at the end of this video (and that amazing pause at the end while you "watch" us absorb it) made me say "Oh my god" out loud in a dead silent library and now I look insane. You're amazing.
I've been thinking about this in relation to Dan's Last Jedi video but also how recent Star Wars has depicted the Empire and First Order. Because there's an interesting thread that's kinda there in Abrams' films and surfaces properly in TLJ about how the FO is really a pit of vipers and not the totally unified, unifying force it purports to be. It's something I wish the trilogy had carried through to the end.
wow, now i know more about propaganda, than the school have teached me. Cool video, perfectly made. What I also wanted to say, your German was very good. It's not easy to pronounce. You get a 1+! Good wishes from austria!
i'm blown away. you've given me a lot to think about, and that doesn't happen much
The comments in this are fascinating, if only because you can easily suss out the nazis by how eager they are to defend triumph of the will
So anyone that disagrees with you politically or counters a point about a video, is a "nazi"... the emotional child's guidebook to arguing on the internet.
Hegelian Detective well, anyone who defends Nazi propaganda is a Nazi, that’s how that works. The alt-right relies so heavily on straw-man arguments it’s laughable.