Everything You Said Is Absolutely Correct. By the way I set Lash cold Yep to big a push rod and to heavy a valve, I thought we had a Ti Valve in it. 😮😁😁 Oh want to do some cams for me, I will call ya later.
Billy Godbold's book mentions this. In my 20's, I wasn't patient or mature enough to set up a valvetrain. Back then, I was dealing with dirt bikes in the desert, so your valve job tends to go away over time. Dust, lots of RPM. That's just how it goes. As a kid, my ego was super inflated. You, Steve Morris, and Eric Weingartner are doing a major service to the hot rod community. You folks are that prime age of person who does this stuff enough to set it up properly and that helps people decide how to pick their battles or stay in their lane. My lane is stock bottom end, solid roller, and a manual trans. -- Thanks Y'all.
I wiped a hyd roller lifter out on a gen 1 small block chevy 383 and put solid roller lifters on a hyd roller cam. Motor picked up power and rev'ed out another 1000 rpm over the hyd roller lifters. Yes it works
I guess it comes from engines where you had to be doing it periodically for normal wear. Some bike engines are like that still, not due to cam but due to seat and valve wear(it will get too tight eventually, direct valve actuating)
@@lassikinnunen yes. Different systems require different care… In the car world (specifically hot rod or high performance engines) it’s not like that, obviously. People immediately think, oh it’s loose, must be something backed off. Or, oh it’s tight, must be out of adjustment. Lol. If it’s either you have to confirm why. Look at the thread height above the adjuster nut is the first thing. Compare it to the rest, and see if they’re similar. If so you’ve got a problem! Everyone’s point is, valve lash is more of a tool than it is a service… Meaning it’s used to check operation, not to be changed for no reason.
in 1964 my 56 chevy 265 had floated the lifters too many times . So i purchased a set of solid lifters and adjusted them hot for a 283 corvette l believe 18 intake & 22 exhaust. On start up it shot oil over the fenders. It ran unbelievably smooth and sounded like a well oiled sewing machine. I drove the car for two years with no issues. I received the same comments . YOU can't run solids on a hydraulic cam. I finally started telling them the cam doesn't know the difference.
Holding the valve closed. Oh no 😮 Awesome work. Thanks a ton, your hands on efficient approach, and real world experience, know how, and analysis helps us all to realize the how and why. Thanks.
Cool review on SM. Thanks for clarifying the solid on hydraulic cam profile. With the hydraulic profile being a "more gentle", the solid roller has no issue. Steve mentioned that The Lash was the big concern in the general population. He mentioned "tight" at 0.005 lash was what he does in such cases. You explained a lot that helped me understand valve train even better. Happy New Year everyone. Have a Great Day!
Just received my custom grind FE from you a week ago - looks great and I appreciate the time you took to talk with me. I need to get some lifters now, and I think it's worth another call. I hate to hear about your kids - I'll call next week, and we can sort lifters and springs out - maybe that will help them out. Thanks for all you do!
I use to run solids on a hyd profile for years , but I decided to try a solid roller since like you said why run the hyd when you can get more out of a solid , so any this was in my 632 in a boat the hyd cam was 262/270@.050 on a 114+2 I installed it at 110 icl .631” then I switched to a solid roller 260/268@.050 on a 112+4 icl was 108 .697 “the difference in performance was incredible it accelerated much harder, turned the same propeller 400 rpm more and it idled much better , needles to say I haven’t ran a hyd in a big block for years , also for anyone that reads this , if you haven’t tried a cam from Powell you should I’m about too order my 3 rd cam from them since September
I love these videos where you go deep into the weeds! I understand it, but I'm not versed in a lot of it. You are filling that gap for me when you discuss the fine detail. And you do it well. Thanks for the great videos! Hope to see you and Steve do a joint venture in the future.
Steve "Stevie Wonder" Morris. I watch Steve. Steve's been doing this since highskrewl and is about 55 or so. He is a professional high dollar engine builder. I think he knows what he's doing most of the time. Glad you answered your viewers concerns.
Being a high dollar engine builder doesn't mean you actually know what you're doing. Look at everybodys favorite American burnout machine builder, NRE aka Nelson 'Racing' Engines. They build engines that easily eclipse $100k but you'd never seen one in a serious Drag Week car, for example. Or a serious anything, for that matter. You only ever see them in cars that sit at cars shows and do burnouts leaving parking lots. I mean, yea, Nelson obviously knows SOMETHING to put together the things he does. But I'd never put him in the same class at Steve, for example. Steve knows his s*it. I don't see Nelson in the same league.
@@J.C... First time I saw nelson put a cold engine on the dyno and do a full pull on that DEAD COLD engine, i wrote him off as a big talking showman! With the money his clients spend an even half-decent builder would get similar results... PLUS, every person I've ever known that swore like Nelson wasn't worth knowing.
When the content creator (Powell Machine) is smarter than the internet 😏 the smile as the video began epic. I like they add emphasis as to how good they are by doing these videos sitting at the desk in their shop - with the business they own 👍
@@powellmachineinc You ever heard of the AI generated Compound Lever Valve Train System {CLVTS} for OHV engines? If so, your thoughts about it. www.google.com/search?q=compound+lever+valve+train+system+for+internal+combustion+engine&mstk=AUtExfBy8MSA3sMOZgHbMc52QTz9paxGfRThoPKShBoisbXl4r9DI2ohQAV0nn6dSwJ7HZY5R4FfYPL1s-ZlA6sv4_tbrXeX7DLKmMfMntwZYtzPzIqKcmn-ZlXBsHtKtKQ__WNeJ3T6WXzliq50cJP3M4xyLtOUC0mnXracfrHU7uir7GmxL8uOciRX0KaAEapfPnzesWdw6wXsUPKKS1tFPlrPX8BF5O03W5efN6yeVmR59a02FhN42VhxxRqo2Q6BSrHflfyXYay_sRed7Z1M4-aF&csuir=3
Seen your cam on the dyno in a 604 replica of sort with your cam , aluminum 200cc heads and a 85? Torque storm supercharger make 1000hp on a 010 block! You are a beast and someday hope to have a cam of yours in my sbc! Congratulations! 🎈
Good stuff. Years ago, I built a 496 bbc for a client that wanted a very low maintenance bracket car. Set the lash @.002 cold. Still runs great today. It's easy to monitor by checking the lash as you had mentioned.
i was doing this 30 years ago with flat tappets in oval track engines. The tracks had a hyd cam rule that you had to run. You can also modify the lifter with a spacer to be a solid, which is what i do for the 602 and 604 engines.
I think the only thing bad to do would be roller lifters on a flat tappet cam. Good to know about the solid lifters on the hydraulic cam, I've got probably too much rocker weight and not enough spring, so will look at spacers before springs, as I want to protect that cam.
My friend built a 408 Windsor almost a year ago. The gentleman who did the machine work and assembly used a hydraulic roller big mutha thumper with solid roller lifters and he drives it to most every show in the area. Sounds and runs great. I didn't know you could do that but it works.
Great vid, I think a lot of this started with one of the big car mags back in the day saying that Hydraulic cams lacked clearance ramps. I was one of those who believed it for years until one day I took a dial indicator on a lifter and tried to show a guy in the shop how hydraulics did not have ramps and surprise surprise.. Really great of you explaining the usual variations in the ramps and the differences in acceleration between solid and hydraulic cams.
Thanks for the clarification, I thought this would work fine by allowing the valvetrain to be more stable. I am glad to feel my instinct was correct. Love the videos, always more learning for me!
Thanks for the vid.This has been around for years great you took it on for your subscribers. For the haters and non believers this wasn't even one of his builds. So if it went BOOM! he would been wanting to sell a lot of merch. I'll be a new subscriber. I like Steve open and sometimes I think he likes the hits.
Another great video! To me if i want something to rev its better to go solid vs trying to keep the hyd lifter happy.. that gets really tricky like you stated. Mass is always the enemy Andy
Engine masters did an episode about this and had excellent results, Steve Brule wanted to do some longevity testing but was very good episode. Steve basically did zero lash , tightening the rockers till he could just barely turn the pushrods cold.
Been a few Circe track racers back in the day put solids on hyd. Flat tappet. It worked then but wouldn’t try it these days, cams were much better quality then.
@@mb-fs1yo Depends on what core you're getting. Besides, there's a lot more lobes today which are much more sophisticated than what was around way back.
You are definitely the man brother. Love your videos, just awesome informative content that you explained in pretty dang layman terms. Great great job as always.
I saw Steve's video when he put it out. It reminded me of a question I posed to My engine Guru back in the 90's. I wanted to run mechanical valve springs on a hydraulic cam. I was trying to build a racy early SBC out of the Dana engine parts catalogue (I worked at NAPA). He said it 'could work' but even with the Sealed Power high rev hydraulic lifters they just won't like that 100lb boost in spring pressure. I'm still running that combo in a steel crank '68 327 installed in my '86 K5 Blazer. It is way better than the 305 that came in it. Thank You for adding to this topic. Happy New Year!! Please keep the vids coming. ✌
Combination, combination, combination. Agreed with what you state and thank you for getting in the weeds on the why. I am a little surprised the interwebz blew up but then again, I've lurked online email lists, forums etc.for a long time. So with that said, I am not that surprised some people flipped their lid. 20 years ago BBC guys were running solid roller lifters on hydraulic roller cams with tight lash, trying to get low maintenance higher rpm, with big valves. As with most things people had varying degrees of success. Solids on a hydraulic profile are not common now but better hydraulic performance lifters are out and lobe design has improved.
If I remember correctly, he didn't build the engine. So, he had to investigate the "package". And like always, he figured it out. Great comparison analysis, and theory of understanding. Cool vid.
Great Video Daniel. I watched this a few weeks back. i Just want to say that even the Drag Guys that are checking Lash every pass are only doing it to see if they have a Lifter or Push Rod cup going away. If the lash changes you have a problem like you said. Tight and you probably hurt a valve. Loose you probably hurt a lifter or Push rod / Adjust Cup or a Rocker.
You are 100% correct about GM lifters now days, they are just not that good anymore, the lifters rollers always brindle away... I prefer Johnsons lifters when it comes to LS stuff. 👍
A well known engine shop in the Midwest recommended this on a build about 20 years ago. If you know what you are doing as a engine builder it can be done. I only deal with the best 👍
Prominent Pontiac v8 builders from the early 2000’s ran tightly lashed Solid roller lifters on Hydraulic roller cams with great success. Ie Cliff Ruggles, Butler brothers and others.
I built a sbc 383 back in the late 90’s. It has 230/244 comp hyd roller. It wouldn’t rev past 6200. Fell on it face. Most people said “because 383 doesn’t rev”. Yea, right. I put solid roller lifters on it, lash at .006 intake and .008 exhaust and omg. I was shifting off the rev limiter at 7800. It sounded so nasty (in a good way) revving that high. That was in my daily driven 3rd gen Camaro that ran 11.56 @121 in the late 90’s. Full weight car on 17” ROH snipers on 555r crappy drag radials with a 1.9-2.0 60ft
Funny how some don’t understand that the tiny stroke increase on a 383 doesn’t affect its rpm. 400 s rev just fine. I’m not a Chevy guy but I have two almost identical 383s. One solid in a factory five hot rod truck. And a hydraulic in a 66 c10. Neither cares about the max rpm. I have an 885 hp 540 in a 69 C10 and it’s hits 7500 pretty often street driving. It’s .760 with 1.8 shaft rockers and now has Isky solids in it. I know I sound like a Chevy guy but I can’t afford a barracuda or challenger.
Daniel..... GREAT video as always....... i like how you explain things that simpletons like me can relate to. miss having machine shop owners like you around, boy i grew up in the best times and was blessed to be by some great guys who would share things like you do. didn't engine masters on MT do a test of hyd on solid and solid on hyd? i thought they did and you basically saw the hyd was great for low rpm torque and the solids gained upper range? i've heard people say using hyd on solid (profile depending of course) makes the cam roudy down low, compared the hyd counterpart
Been running a Bullet Hyd Roller with solid lifters and springs for around 500 passes in my bracket car. I backed off the lash till it lost mph in the 1/8th and settled in there at .018 lash. It’s not if it can be done, it does work and is really easy on the valve train.
@johnbean2596 The idea is that, as you add lash, you reduce overall duration. If the valve events are overly aggressive, more lash will continue to help torque and power output
Ran solid lifters on my turbo car for well over a decade. Was a 354” stroker sbf. Ran 5.80s in the 1/8 and drove it on the street a lot. I would check lash every oil change which was maybe twice a year. During winter I would back the valves off since it would sit until spring. Never had an issue w it.
I have ran hydraulic cams in circle track competition. We run them at zero lash or actually a bit looser. If you don’t, the valves will remain off the seat when closed due to pump up. I would have a miss above 7,000 rpm if had ANY preload in the rocker arm. I turned it 7,400 rpm in the heats.
@powellmachineinc well, backing off the preload fixed the problem, so direct observations do not line up with that. This was with a Mopar small block running 70 psi with a full source to the lifters. They will definitely pump up.
@powellmachineinc I figured out how it can happen without floating the valves. On the closing ramp at high speed, if the oil pressure on the plunger is more than the spring force it can pump up the lifter without floating. In my world floating the valves is having them bounce on the seat. This is not that.
I`ve done just that, I dynoed the engine 12/26/23 my customer put it in his truck and its still running and never had the V/Covers off it, no noise at all, burn`t off 2 sets of rear tires, has had 2 oil changes and destroyed 2 transmissions runs in the street turns 7000rpm with the chip. It has solid roller springs and Jesel shaft mounts. I set the lash at "0" cold with enough preload so I could still turn the pushrod with a small amount of drag. When its hot theres no drag on the pushrod and I can`t feel or detect any lash. I believe the aluminum heads add about .004 inch to the lash so it loosens the preload. If youre intrested camspecs are 242/252 on a 110+4 with .615/.605....427cid sbc dart 9.325deck
I commented on that video, saying that you had talked about this issue before and the fix is what he did. Powell and Morris were in agreement, not sure what weed people smoke while watching RUclips..
I had a very respectable engine builder build me a 427 LS this year. Blower motor. For whatever reason he put a adjustable shaft mount rocker system on the heads he did for me. Floated the valves and wouldn’t rev past 5500 ended up having to switch heads. Sucks because they weren’t cheap. Was very surprised he didn’t know not to run the heavy rockers on a boosted LS unless you’re going full solid.
I run a traditional Pontiac with a BULLET CAMS custom Hyd roller with LS firing order it’s quiet and very smooth on valve-train.Oh and I tight lash at .007 it works great!These setups are for drag and drive kinda deal for reliability…
I have run solid roller lifters on SBC step nose hydraulic roller cams numerous times. There is actually a drop in solid roller lifter for the stock SBC and LS lifter retention setups as well.
Interesting stuff for sure. I'm an old timer & remember hearing stories in early NASCAR of engine builders of the 1950's doing the "solid tappet/hydraulic cam" thing back then because everything in the motor was supposed to be STOCK (which it rarely ever was!) and the OHV Chevy's & Olds engines all had Hydraulic lifters from the factory at that time. Now i'm waiting for some nut to try a Hydraulic lifter with a Solid cam lol...!
The last time I had my car out, I usually shift about 6,500.(10lbs of boost) This last run I ran it to 7,100 . It hit a peak of 21lbs of boost. Being a hydrologic cam, I assumed valve float. After watching Steve's video , I'm convinced that's my problem
Been doing that trick for years, on the street in vintage engines with a hydraulic roller cam. With aluminum heads, I set the lash so tight, it's basically zero cold. You can use strong hyd. roller dual springs (or beehive) and have long life from lifters and springs, compared to a true mechanical roller profile with murder-strong springs. NO it's not as much power as a mechanical roller lobe profile, but there's not the bad dynamics of the heavy hyd. roller lifter and the aggravating noise and pump-up that is common with retro-roller hyd. units. A compromise, but it beats a flat tappet anymore!!
Intake valve bouncing off the seat upon valve closing while the piston is rising would create spikes in inlet manifold pressure in a supercharged (blown, turbo, centrifugal, etc) engine.
I’ve ran solid lifters on my hydraulic FE cam for 5 years, cast block and heads no problems, set the lash at the 4 thousands both intake and exhaust.like you said, never have any valve adjustments
Thanks for the education. I'm building a old school small block Chevy crate four bolt main 880 casting with solid lifters on a Thumper series cam with Herbert Racing solid lifters. However I'm not using all the heavy gear. And it will be naturally aspirated. I'm using a bare block and stock crankshaft The rest of the rotating assembly will be and Speedmaster along with the heads and intake match ported. Thanks to Stan Chatwood over at Speedmaster in Rialto California. Kenneth ^
Setting a small lash cold makes more sense, you know the valve isnt hanging open. Might have to loosen it up on a fresh build after break in. Also a tighter lash makes the cam "bigger" but that still might not be what your engine wants. Experiment with lash adjustments to see how it affects performance, you might find you have the wrong cam.
Steve Brule installed solid roller lifters on a hydraulic roller cammed BBC on Engine Masters and gained power. I believe he lashed at .010 but im not sure 100%
I have bushed LS hydraulic lifters so there's like .020 of hydraulic travel after preload is set. The .020 is lash so it's like a hydraulic solid hybrid. Super comp requires a hydraulic lifter so it passes tech requirements.
Hydraulic cam has enough duration to pump the lifter before lifting the valve, now if you're on a huge budget, mean no money, go through all your dads old parts and do it, it will be a high reving track cam, vs hydraulic lifters on a solid cam, makes a great tow cam, low rpm
I think I’ve done it twice with no issues on a solid on hyd and solid on a hydraulic. It’s better with a solid on a hydraulic in my opinion. I ran solid morel lifter on a 680 hydraulic bullit cam until the lifter failed from my high miles on bbc 540. I don’t car for hydraulics on anything.
I bult a Ford 302 with boss pistons and 351C 4v heads and a Boss 302 intake. I orded a Comp Cams 280H hyd cam and solid lifters and they told me it was ok just set valves to .012 and .018. Ran incredible for 2 years and sold it.
i just swapped in morel solid rollers on my ford 349 n/a with a trickflow 242/246 hydraulic roller cam, ilI did bump spring pressure up a little and switch to titanium retainers to also help valve control, 0 lash cold has worked fine for me with aluminum heads and iron block so far.
I've been running this setup since it came out on Engine Masters. It works great! The lash has never needed adjustment and it runs to 8k. It allows for lash loops in case you were off a few degrees on your cam selection. It's also just nice to know you are losing nothing from inconsistent hyd lifters. This is only street driven, roughly 5k miles so far.
Apples to oranges here, but in the G3 hemi world , we have NO off the shelf Solid roller cams , I run a set of Hydraulic body lifters that have been rebuilt with an alum plug replacing the hyd plunger , I run .008 lash cold . have about 4 years on this combo, 25k miles , I check the lash every oil change , and call it a day.(Smith Bros pushrods.)
Harley Davidson has hydraulic roller valve lifters since 1936. You could always and easily convert these solids. The pushrods are adjustable. They run great this way although a little noisier. Same cam.
My 66 Fl came with hydraulic lifters. So did pans and I think knuckle heads too. Ul, and 45s were solid roller. Off the top of my head I think sportsters were solid roller but I imagine later sportsters had hydraulic rollers.
I had a hydraulic flat tappet lifter fail and had to get to work on the next day. Put hydraulic roller lifters in that small block Chevy and then rebuilt it 2 weeks later. It's against the rules but it got me home. Don't do it. It will eventually screw stuff up but, I had no choice at the time. Y'all have a good one.
Awesome content. You added a sub. Im not sure what software you use since I've been out of it a while, but looks similar to the old Jones software. And I do believe Steve went in the wrong direction of allowing the customer to dictate the build instead of building to the use case. It's definitely float, as you described, and 100% should have been a solid application. The ramp rates alone would be better, let alone AUC and lift. Probably could take some boost out of it, be more reliable, and still hit the target power. Thanks for commenting. 👍
To throw a wrench in, back when there where not many options in the mid 70's we ran Hydraulic lifters at .013 lash on the old GM 2nd Design Z28 Off Road camshafts on the street, to knock them down a bit ran pretty well for the day.
I have a hydraulic roller 427 sbf in my 93 mustang coupe, and a solid roller 427 in my 88 mustang gt, .830 lift on the solid and .610 lift on the hydraulic roller. Almost triple the power one from the other
We have done this in an instance of a truck that needed the torque of a smaller cam which is hard to get in solid roller and a customer impatient to wait for a good set of retro hydraulics to come in stock, I should also add it was a big block Chevy and we will not install or warranty flat tappet cams. The customer is welcome to take it and install whatever cam they want but we we to our rules in order to not be to blame…. Point is the engine has something like 5 years and 70k on it with zero issues lash never moved when it came in 3 times to be checked at our auto repair side. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it as it can get complicated and be a cause for more confusion and constraints, other big thing is if someone who has no idea what they are doing fools with it they will screw it up really easily.
I think you answered it earlier. The hydraulic lifters Steve had in use were probably weak enough to allow the intake to be blown open and were holding the exhaust closed. It looks like there is a critical RPM where the lifters loose control and you can see it in his graphs. Great stuff Daniel, thanks for taking the time to educate us on the subject! Oh, and Steve needs to watch your channel too! Love his stuff but every so often you can see he doesn't know it all.
Steve builds engines for a very specific use, drag and drive and these engines are built entirely different from the typical performance engines. These engines need to make runs, while driving a 1,000 + miles and idle sometimes for hours while sitting in traffic. Tom Bailey went in the 5.99 after a week of racing and driving a 1,000+ miles on a Non max effort engine. He builds them to last and even though he did not build the engine in question this is what people go to him for. He has proven time and again, he builds engines, that power 4,200 lb cars that again run a 1,000 + miles and race 5 days in a row, and some for multiple events. He also only builds boosted engines.
So my ol school engine builder combats the whole hydro lifter pump up issues by giving it more preload than asked for. So let’s say it’s a 1/4 turn he’ll give it a full extra turn so it can’t pump up completely therefore solving that problem of bleeding off. He’s been doing it for years with nothing but success
@ crazy isn’t lol but I don’t know what to say he’s been doing that for decades with no issues whatsoever. Imma solid roller guy so I can’t say anything more about it but like I said he’s been doing what i mentioned for so long and no issues. Heck I seen them son of a guns buzzing well past 7500rpm too boot. I’m gonna ask him in detail exactly how he is doing it now that you said this. lol.
@@TurbojooeThink about it... If the lifter is set to nearly bottomed out, it cant reduce "pump-up"," it would limit "bleed-down." You just have the concepts and terms mixed up.
@ but it 100% reduces pump up how’s it pumping up when it went in brand new never run and installed tighter than “recommended” it can’t pump up 100% as the push rod/tight lash is preventing the lifer from doing so. Essentially your turning that normal lifted into a short travel one. Less pump up less bleed down. Like I said I’m a solid roller guy lol shit I learned to set lash workin on promods the hydro stuff isn’t my thing but it makes sense cause Anderson Motorsports says to do the same thing I mentioned in my previous comment. Their specific cam instructions say get tight and than 1 full turn not the typical 1/4 turn most people do. That same sequence I’ve seen stock/ford Motorsports lifers rev to 8k zero issue.
@@powellmachineinc I have seen Vizard talk at length about hydraulic lifter setup and testing. Lifters cannot pump up unless the valves float from inadequate spring pressure. Plunger nearly bottomed out leaves less room for air and thus the lifter plunger more accurately follows the cam profile. I have seen numerous LS pushrod length tests over the years and the more preload the more power the same cam makes. I have had a couple of actual LS7 engines apart doing cam swaps on them. GM ran the stock LS7s with ~0.130" preload on the lifter plungers due to the longer internal travel of the lifter plunger. Personally I would invest in short travel lifters myself, but the deep preload on the lifters has been a thing for years.
you know uncle tony's garage just had this exact topic but in reference to a purchase of parts. i think more people are fixing their cars and are becoming aware of the nuances of engine systems.
It is a very interesting question. But what I find more interesting. Is average people, including myself. We have a knowledge that could get us in trouble building a motor. But our knowledge might save us money for a street build. Though really we could make common mistakes. We look to builders for the best bet answers for what we expect from our engines. There is always a stream of knowledge that builders can never share with some people because of understanding the big picture. Building an engine is not plug and play. Very simple. There's a mash up of details. Like swapping a cam. What else is in play. For a machinist everything is important. Watching these videos is never the answer for people to think they can just make the decision. But yes you can present the idea to your machinist. If he knows the details of your engine he will help you learn about the direction of your choice. Blue printing your engine will help you with the math of lifter, spring load, keepers, rockers and all of the upper rotating assembly. And what is needed. Especially to answer the question of what you expect from your engine. Keep it between the ditches guys.
That said lets run a regular solid lifter used on a hydraulic lifter cam but not a roller type, same thing applies, you need to have room for oil to get in there. Old adage is that a little loose is better than too tight...
Well, when we test the piston to valve clearance’s on high lift hydraulic cams, we use a pair of hydraulic lifters on one cylinder, with a layer of clay on the piston, and rotate the engine carefully more than 720° to make sure the cycle operated both valves 100%. no pump up required, and if there was enough clearance we installed the rest of the piston’s on the rods lubed the lobes and bottoms of the hydraulic lifters, pushem up tubes and rocker contact points ready for assembly, installed the actual heads I used a sawed off section of another head, with identical dimensions and valve-train components, I also used another section with a hogged out valve guide and a needle roller thrust bearing washer combination to fit an adjustable fly cutting tool set it at the minimum clearance over valve face diameter and with a collar on the stem set it to limit the cutting tool travel to match the minimum clearance bring each slug to tdc install with 4 bolts (snug) right after installing the pistons and rods, before trusting this jig I tested and weighed a full set to log the reduction in bob weight, and drill the throw weight holes accordingly but it worked out because the longer rods I used were a few (.01 - .03) heavier on the little end and I had only compensated for the wrist pin weight.) pushmatubes, and teeter-totters pre set the lash. and didn’t realize until after pre running the engine for the cam’s 10 minute break in, that I forgot to pull the solids out of #1, & stuck the hydraulic’s in the box of new solids as I fine tuned the valve lash. Luckily I ran a spare intake with a reusable gasket and coolant jacket bypass tubes for initial run in, I swapped the lifters & installed the new manifold and only had to adjust the last two valves. (30+ years ago.)
I liked my Rhoads lifters. They bleed down at idle to tame idle and act as a solid at revs. It certainly did the job and gave another easy 500 rpm up top. But I always preferred the solid lifter cam setup but the valve train always took a hammering and noisy. Running zero cold lash with hyd lift solid cam must be quiet and easy on the valvetrain. I will certainly try.
@powellmachineinc I experimented with them quite a bit "back in the day." They did sometimes seem to slightly help with idle, vacuum, and perhaps a little low end torque. But they also consistently killed some top end power. (Add in some noise and fear of self destruction) As Daniel says physics. Though even Milliseconds become functionally shorter as crankspeed increases... My best success with high bleed rate lifters was an inefficient crutch for insufficient displacement combined with absurd cam profiles. It was fun, but a better matched combo is superior.
Just guessing, it was a problem with hydraulic lifters and relatively weak valve springs coming in at a certain RPM . If the lifters were pumping up and holding the intake valves open too long allowing the compression stroke to force air back into the intake it might cause the spike.
Everything You Said Is Absolutely Correct. By the way I set Lash cold
Yep to big a push rod and to heavy a valve, I thought we had a Ti Valve in it.
😮😁😁
Oh want to do some cams for me, I will call ya later.
Set hot, check cold note cold setting, set cold in the future
Also 💯 I was defending u!!, the internet is smarter than we are!! Luv ya
Definitely, shoot me a email and I will give u my personal cell#
Powellmachineinc@gmail.com
@@stevemorrisracing I was hoping so Steve. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
@@powellmachineinc personal cell🤔....man I'm jealous!😤
Billy Godbold's book mentions this.
In my 20's, I wasn't patient or mature enough to set up a valvetrain. Back then, I was dealing with dirt bikes in the desert, so your valve job tends to go away over time. Dust, lots of RPM. That's just how it goes. As a kid, my ego was super inflated.
You, Steve Morris, and Eric Weingartner are doing a major service to the hot rod community. You folks are that prime age of person who does this stuff enough to set it up properly and that helps people decide how to pick their battles or stay in their lane. My lane is stock bottom end, solid roller, and a manual trans.
-- Thanks Y'all.
thank you very much, comments like this is why I do this stuff!!
I wiped a hyd roller lifter out on a gen 1 small block chevy 383 and put solid roller lifters on a hyd roller cam. Motor picked up power and rev'ed out another 1000 rpm over the hyd roller lifters. Yes it works
I’ve been running solids on hydraulics for over 20 years. I mean all of this knowledge has been out there for a long time.
So much info has been rehashed over and over and over and over and over and over and over,,...,...
And then people pass it on as new.
I'm gonna run a set up like that on a street build easier on the valve train
Nobody says it hasn't been around, he was answering the Plebs on the Net which imo is a fruitless exercise as they are experts at everything.
I have as well just set it about .010 on a pretty reg lobe. I have been fast doin this as well.
Hydraulic cam is very close to a “tight lash” solid profile except less radical, and great for making solid rollers live on the street.
Exactly brother!!!
People always make the mistake of “adjusting” the lash.
You CHECK lash, if it “needs adjusted” you better be figuring out why!!!
@@frankensteincreations4740 facts
Having had more than one bad Volvo cam, you're absolutely right.
I guess it comes from engines where you had to be doing it periodically for normal wear. Some bike engines are like that still, not due to cam but due to seat and valve wear(it will get too tight eventually, direct valve actuating)
@@lassikinnunen yes. Different systems require different care… In the car world (specifically hot rod or high performance engines) it’s not like that, obviously.
People immediately think, oh it’s loose, must be something backed off. Or, oh it’s tight, must be out of adjustment. Lol.
If it’s either you have to confirm why.
Look at the thread height above the adjuster nut is the first thing. Compare it to the rest, and see if they’re similar. If so you’ve got a problem!
Everyone’s point is, valve lash is more of a tool than it is a service… Meaning it’s used to check operation, not to be changed for no reason.
Wouldn't it be similar to short travel lifters on a roller? I'm guessing that it almost becomes like a solid???
in 1964 my 56 chevy 265 had floated the lifters too many times . So i purchased a set of solid lifters and adjusted them hot for a 283 corvette l believe 18 intake & 22 exhaust. On start up it shot oil over the fenders. It ran unbelievably smooth and sounded like a well oiled sewing machine. I drove the car for two years with no issues. I received the same comments . YOU can't run solids on a hydraulic cam. I finally started telling them the cam doesn't know the difference.
Yep, it's not a new thing, but keyboard warriors get all riled up. 😂
Holding the valve closed. Oh no 😮 Awesome work. Thanks a ton, your hands on efficient approach, and real world experience, know how, and analysis helps us all to realize the how and why. Thanks.
Appreciate you watching!
Cool review on SM. Thanks for clarifying the solid on hydraulic cam profile. With the hydraulic profile being a "more gentle", the solid roller has no issue. Steve mentioned that The Lash was the big concern in the general population. He mentioned "tight" at 0.005 lash was what he does in such cases. You explained a lot that helped me understand valve train even better. Happy New Year everyone. Have a Great Day!
@@jeffhopper3526 glad to do it
Just received my custom grind FE from you a week ago - looks great and I appreciate the time you took to talk with me. I need to get some lifters now, and I think it's worth another call. I hate to hear about your kids - I'll call next week, and we can sort lifters and springs out - maybe that will help them out.
Thanks for all you do!
Appreciate it! I'm sure we can figure something out together.
@Vivian64FE good ol FarmEq 😆 jk but not. You got some cylinder heads for that mochine?
@@slopoke22 TFS on order...
I use to run solids on a hyd profile for years , but I decided to try a solid roller since like you said why run the hyd when you can get more out of a solid , so any this was in my 632 in a boat the hyd cam was 262/270@.050 on a 114+2 I installed it at 110 icl .631” then I switched to a solid roller 260/268@.050 on a 112+4 icl was 108 .697 “the difference in performance was incredible it accelerated much harder, turned the same propeller 400 rpm more and it idled much better , needles to say I haven’t ran a hyd in a big block for years , also for anyone that reads this , if you haven’t tried a cam from Powell you should I’m about too order my 3 rd cam from them since September
That's great to hear you're having success with a solid roller cam.
I love these videos where you go deep into the weeds! I understand it, but I'm not versed in a lot of it. You are filling that gap for me when you discuss the fine detail. And you do it well. Thanks for the great videos! Hope to see you and Steve do a joint venture in the future.
@@SMOBY44 we appreciate the support 🙏
Steve "Stevie Wonder" Morris. I watch Steve. Steve's been doing this since highskrewl and is about 55 or so. He is a professional high dollar engine builder. I think he knows what he's doing most of the time. Glad you answered your viewers concerns.
Exactly!
Being a high dollar engine builder doesn't mean you actually know what you're doing. Look at everybodys favorite American burnout machine builder, NRE aka Nelson 'Racing' Engines.
They build engines that easily eclipse $100k but you'd never seen one in a serious Drag Week car, for example. Or a serious anything, for that matter. You only ever see them in cars that sit at cars shows and do burnouts leaving parking lots.
I mean, yea, Nelson obviously knows SOMETHING to put together the things he does. But I'd never put him in the same class at Steve, for example. Steve knows his s*it. I don't see Nelson in the same league.
@@J.C... cricketsss
@@johnd5805SSC motor seems fairly stout
@@J.C...
First time I saw nelson put a cold engine on the dyno and do a full pull on that DEAD COLD engine, i wrote him off as a big talking showman!
With the money his clients spend an even half-decent builder would get similar results...
PLUS, every person I've ever known that swore like Nelson wasn't worth knowing.
When the content creator (Powell Machine) is smarter than the internet 😏 the smile as the video began epic. I like they add emphasis as to how good they are by doing these videos sitting at the desk in their shop - with the business they own 👍
@@haroldkellermier5502 lol
As always love your videos keep ‘em coming.
@@toddsculley2710 we appreciate that 🙏
It's good to hear other perspectives on topics like this. Keep doing this.
@@VGHCX ty, will do
@@powellmachineinc You ever heard of the AI generated Compound Lever Valve Train System {CLVTS} for OHV engines? If so, your thoughts about it.
www.google.com/search?q=compound+lever+valve+train+system+for+internal+combustion+engine&mstk=AUtExfBy8MSA3sMOZgHbMc52QTz9paxGfRThoPKShBoisbXl4r9DI2ohQAV0nn6dSwJ7HZY5R4FfYPL1s-ZlA6sv4_tbrXeX7DLKmMfMntwZYtzPzIqKcmn-ZlXBsHtKtKQ__WNeJ3T6WXzliq50cJP3M4xyLtOUC0mnXracfrHU7uir7GmxL8uOciRX0KaAEapfPnzesWdw6wXsUPKKS1tFPlrPX8BF5O03W5efN6yeVmR59a02FhN42VhxxRqo2Q6BSrHflfyXYay_sRed7Z1M4-aF&csuir=3
@@powellmachineinc You ever heard of the AI generated Compound Lever Valve Train System {CLVTS} for OHV engines? If so, your thoughts about it. thanks
@@VGHCX above my pay grade
@@powellmachineinc😂😂😂
Seen your cam on the dyno in a 604 replica of sort with your cam , aluminum 200cc heads and a 85? Torque storm supercharger make 1000hp on a 010 block!
You are a beast and someday hope to have a cam of yours in my sbc! Congratulations! 🎈
Thanks! Appreciate that!
Good stuff. Years ago, I built a 496 bbc for a client that wanted a very low maintenance bracket car. Set the lash @.002 cold. Still runs great today. It's easy to monitor by checking the lash as you had mentioned.
@johnsartelle8320 absolutely!
i was doing this 30 years ago with flat tappets in oval track engines. The tracks had a hyd cam rule that you had to run. You can also modify the lifter with a spacer to be a solid, which is what i do for the 602 and 604 engines.
I think the only thing bad to do would be roller lifters on a flat tappet cam.
Good to know about the solid lifters on the hydraulic cam, I've got probably too much rocker weight and not enough spring, so will look at spacers before springs, as I want to protect that cam.
@@gordonburnett9672
Rollers on a flat tappet lobe would destroy itself, if you ever got it to run.
My friend built a 408 Windsor almost a year ago. The gentleman who did the machine work and assembly used a hydraulic roller big mutha thumper with solid roller lifters and he drives it to most every show in the area. Sounds and runs great. I didn't know you could do that but it works.
@@glenclifton4563 absolutely
Great vid, I think a lot of this started with one of the big car mags back in the day saying that Hydraulic cams lacked clearance ramps. I was one of those who believed it for years until one day I took a dial indicator on a lifter and tried to show a guy in the shop how hydraulics did not have ramps and surprise surprise..
Really great of you explaining the usual variations in the ramps and the differences in acceleration between solid and hydraulic cams.
@1bottlefed glad it helps
Always a lot of variables involved thanks for info I really enjoy and appreciate both yours and Steve's content.👍
Appreciate you!
Thanks for the clarification, I thought this would work fine by allowing the valvetrain to be more stable. I am glad to feel my instinct was correct. Love the videos, always more learning for me!
@davidgough1161 tyvm!! Glad u like them
Thanks for the vid.This has been around for years great you took it on for your subscribers. For the haters and non believers this wasn't even one of his builds. So if it went BOOM! he would been wanting to sell a lot of merch. I'll be a new subscriber. I like Steve open and sometimes I think he likes the hits.
Definitely
I love your channel. The knowledge here is first class. But I’d just love to hear you say “god damnit Bobby!”
Lol, maybe one day.
@@powellmachineinchaha in all seriousness thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Dont, think Steve could pick a better camshaft designer! He'll, be pleased with your product! I'm, super stoked for you, Daniel!
@@strokermaverick ty sir,
Another great video! To me if i want something to rev its better to go solid vs trying to keep the hyd lifter happy.. that gets really tricky like you stated. Mass is always the enemy
Andy
Well said!
Engine masters did an episode about this and had excellent results, Steve Brule wanted to do some longevity testing but was very good episode. Steve basically did zero lash , tightening the rockers till he could just barely turn the pushrods cold.
@mb-fs1yo it's old, people been doing this for 50 years
Been a few Circe track racers back in the day put solids on hyd. Flat tappet. It worked then but wouldn’t try it these days, cams were much better quality then.
@@mb-fs1yo
Depends on what core you're getting. Besides, there's a lot more lobes today which are much more sophisticated than what was around way back.
You are definitely the man brother. Love your videos, just awesome informative content that you explained in pretty dang layman terms. Great great job as always.
@@edwardrock1666 we really appreciate the support 🙏
I saw Steve's video when he put it out. It reminded me of a question I posed to My engine Guru back in the 90's. I wanted to run mechanical valve springs on a hydraulic cam. I was trying to build a racy early SBC out of the Dana engine parts catalogue (I worked at NAPA). He said it 'could work' but even with the Sealed Power high rev hydraulic lifters they just won't like that 100lb boost in spring pressure. I'm still running that combo in a steel crank '68 327 installed in my '86 K5 Blazer. It is way better than the 305 that came in it. Thank You for adding to this topic. Happy New Year!! Please keep the vids coming. ✌
Combination, combination, combination. Agreed with what you state and thank you for getting in the weeds on the why. I am a little surprised the interwebz blew up but then again, I've lurked online email lists, forums etc.for a long time. So with that said, I am not that surprised some people flipped their lid. 20 years ago BBC guys were running solid roller lifters on hydraulic roller cams with tight lash, trying to get low maintenance higher rpm, with big valves. As with most things people had varying degrees of success. Solids on a hydraulic profile are not common now but better hydraulic performance lifters are out and lobe design has improved.
Our pleasure
If I remember correctly, he didn't build the engine. So, he had to investigate the "package". And like always, he figured it out.
Great comparison analysis, and theory of understanding. Cool vid.
I've ran soild lift SBC combos my whole life. Last time I had the valve covers off my street car was 12 or so years ago 🙂
Yep
Appreciate the in depth answer to this. I learned a few things i didnt know.
@@HoonGoon177 glad it helps!
Great Video Daniel. I watched this a few weeks back. i Just want to say that even the Drag Guys that are checking Lash every pass are only doing it to see if they have a Lifter or Push Rod cup going away. If the lash changes you have a problem like you said. Tight and you probably hurt a valve. Loose you probably hurt a lifter or Push rod / Adjust Cup or a Rocker.
Absolutely!
I think steve says in the video he didn’t build that engine. So he just had to make it work. Great video by both of you guys.
Thanks for watching 👍
Very interesting, thanks for the discussion on these cam profiles.
Absolutely 💯
You are 100% correct about GM lifters now days, they are just not that good anymore, the lifters rollers always brindle away... I prefer Johnsons lifters when it comes to LS stuff. 👍
That's what we're seeing
A well known engine shop in the Midwest recommended this on a build about 20 years ago.
If you know what you are doing as a engine builder it can be done.
I only deal with the best 👍
This video explains that
Prominent Pontiac v8 builders from the early 2000’s ran tightly lashed Solid roller lifters on Hydraulic roller cams with great success.
Ie Cliff Ruggles, Butler brothers and others.
I built a sbc 383 back in the late 90’s. It has 230/244 comp hyd roller. It wouldn’t rev past 6200. Fell on it face. Most people said “because 383 doesn’t rev”. Yea, right. I put solid roller lifters on it, lash at .006 intake and .008 exhaust and omg. I was shifting off the rev limiter at 7800. It sounded so nasty (in a good way) revving that high. That was in my daily driven 3rd gen Camaro that ran 11.56 @121 in the late 90’s. Full weight car on 17” ROH snipers on 555r crappy drag radials with a 1.9-2.0 60ft
Funny how some don’t understand that the tiny stroke increase on a 383 doesn’t affect its rpm. 400 s rev just fine. I’m not a Chevy guy but I have two almost identical 383s. One solid in a factory five hot rod truck. And a hydraulic in a 66 c10. Neither cares about the max rpm. I have an 885 hp 540 in a 69 C10 and it’s hits 7500 pretty often street driving. It’s .760 with 1.8 shaft rockers and now has Isky solids in it. I know I sound like a Chevy guy but I can’t afford a barracuda or challenger.
@ there’s ALOT the people think they know, that they really don’t. I’ve learned that by experimenting on my own.
Daniel.....
GREAT video as always....... i like how you explain things that simpletons like me can relate to.
miss having machine shop owners like you around, boy i grew up in the best times and was blessed to be by some great guys who would share things like you do.
didn't engine masters on MT do a test of hyd on solid and solid on hyd? i thought they did and you basically saw the hyd was great for low rpm torque and the solids gained upper range?
i've heard people say using hyd on solid (profile depending of course) makes the cam roudy down low, compared the hyd counterpart
Tyvm
Got yourself a new sub! Steve always braking things braking the internet isn't surprising 😅 now a got one more video to watch in efi channel.
Glad to have you!
Been running a Bullet Hyd Roller with solid lifters and springs for around 500 passes in my bracket car. I backed off the lash till it lost mph in the 1/8th and settled in there at .018 lash. It’s not if it can be done, it does work and is really easy on the valve train.
@TheSargeGX43 if it likes that much lash it's just to much cam for the application
I learned about HR Cam and Solid Lifters from Bullet when specking out my odd-fire cam.
Can you pls explain the relation between why liking that much lash means overcammed? Thank you
@johnbean2596 The idea is that, as you add lash, you reduce overall duration. If the valve events are overly aggressive, more lash will continue to help torque and power output
@@tadwiltman4875 Will adding lash tend to damage the rollers?
Ran solid lifters on my turbo car for well over a decade. Was a 354” stroker sbf. Ran 5.80s in the 1/8 and drove it on the street a lot. I would check lash every oil change which was maybe twice a year. During winter I would back the valves off since it would sit until spring. Never had an issue w it.
@@Insanestang89 absolutely 💯
I have ran hydraulic cams in circle track competition. We run them at zero lash or actually a bit looser. If you don’t, the valves will remain off the seat when closed due to pump up. I would have a miss above 7,000 rpm if had ANY preload in the rocker arm. I turned it 7,400 rpm in the heats.
@The340king the only way a hyd lifter can pump up is if it's floating the valves
@powellmachineinc well, backing off the preload fixed the problem, so direct observations do not line up with that. This was with a Mopar small block running 70 psi with a full source to the lifters. They will definitely pump up.
@powellmachineinc I figured out how it can happen without floating the valves. On the closing ramp at high speed, if the oil pressure on the plunger is more than the spring force it can pump up the lifter without floating. In my world floating the valves is having them bounce on the seat. This is not that.
I've been running solid roller on a hydraulic roller cam since the 80s
I did this with flat tappet and roller cams for years. Works perfect every time! Zero lash cold and you are good to go.
Thank you for the video excellent I really enjoy listening and watching your stuff thank you
Glad you liked it!
I`ve done just that, I dynoed the engine 12/26/23 my customer put it in his truck and its still running and never had the V/Covers off it, no noise at all, burn`t off 2 sets of rear tires, has had 2 oil changes and destroyed 2 transmissions runs in the street turns 7000rpm with the chip. It has solid roller springs and Jesel shaft mounts. I set the lash at "0" cold with enough preload so I could still turn the pushrod with a small amount of drag. When its hot theres no drag on the pushrod and I can`t feel or detect any lash. I believe the aluminum heads add about .004 inch to the lash so it loosens the preload. If youre intrested camspecs are 242/252 on a 110+4 with .615/.605....427cid sbc dart 9.325deck
Good stuff, DP. I saw that video on Steve’s channel and felt sorry for those poor GM lifters. 😂
@@jonelford lol, definitely
Thanks for a propper evaluation with logic,, ya, and quick picking on Steve.. Ha
Absolutely, ty
I commented on that video, saying that you had talked about this issue before and the fix is what he did. Powell and Morris were in agreement, not sure what weed people smoke while watching RUclips..
Absolutely 💯
I had a very respectable engine builder build me a 427 LS this year. Blower motor. For whatever reason he put a adjustable shaft mount rocker system on the heads he did for me. Floated the valves and wouldn’t rev past 5500 ended up having to switch heads. Sucks because they weren’t cheap. Was very surprised he didn’t know not to run the heavy rockers on a boosted LS unless you’re going full solid.
Lots of people are just guessing
I run a traditional Pontiac with a BULLET CAMS custom Hyd roller with LS firing order it’s quiet and very smooth on valve-train.Oh and I tight lash at .007 it works great!These setups are for drag and drive kinda deal for reliability…
I have run solid roller lifters on SBC step nose hydraulic roller cams numerous times. There is actually a drop in solid roller lifter for the stock SBC and LS lifter retention setups as well.
Manufacturer and part #?
@powellmachineinc Morel 4737
Interesting stuff for sure. I'm an old timer & remember hearing stories in early NASCAR of engine builders of the 1950's doing the "solid tappet/hydraulic cam" thing back then because everything in the motor was supposed to be STOCK (which it rarely ever was!) and the OHV Chevy's & Olds engines all had Hydraulic lifters from the factory at that time. Now i'm waiting for some nut to try a Hydraulic lifter with a Solid cam lol...!
You never know what people will try!
The last time I had my car out, I usually shift about 6,500.(10lbs of boost) This last run I ran it to 7,100 . It hit a peak of 21lbs of boost. Being a hydrologic cam, I assumed valve float. After watching Steve's video , I'm convinced that's my problem
Been doing that trick for years, on the street in vintage engines with a hydraulic roller cam. With aluminum heads, I set the lash so tight, it's basically zero cold. You can use strong hyd. roller dual springs (or beehive) and have long life from lifters and springs, compared to a true mechanical roller profile with murder-strong springs. NO it's not as much power as a mechanical roller lobe profile, but there's not the bad dynamics of the heavy hyd. roller lifter and the aggravating noise and pump-up that is common with retro-roller hyd. units. A compromise, but it beats a flat tappet anymore!!
Intake valve bouncing off the seat upon valve closing while the piston is rising would create spikes in inlet manifold pressure in a supercharged (blown, turbo, centrifugal, etc) engine.
@@Jeffsa12 absolutely
I’ve ran solid lifters on my hydraulic FE cam for 5 years, cast block and heads no problems, set the lash at the 4 thousands both intake and exhaust.like you said, never have any valve adjustments
Thanks for the education.
I'm building a old school small block Chevy crate four bolt main 880 casting with solid lifters on a Thumper series cam with Herbert Racing solid lifters.
However I'm not using all the heavy gear.
And it will be naturally aspirated.
I'm using a bare block and stock crankshaft
The rest of the rotating assembly will be and Speedmaster along with the heads and intake match ported. Thanks to Stan Chatwood over at Speedmaster in Rialto California.
Kenneth ^
"speedmaster"....super cringe knockoff garbage
good to see you man blessings well said sir
Another great video, Would be awesome to see you doing some cams for Steve!
Maybe one day!
Setting a small lash cold makes more sense, you know the valve isnt hanging open. Might have to loosen it up on a fresh build after break in. Also a tighter lash makes the cam "bigger" but that still might not be what your engine wants. Experiment with lash adjustments to see how it affects performance, you might find you have the wrong cam.
love your vids.thanks for taking the time to share..
@@davecorreira3886 my pleasure
Steve Brule installed solid roller lifters on a hydraulic roller cammed BBC on Engine Masters and gained power. I believe he lashed at .010 but im not sure 100%
Yep
I have bushed LS hydraulic lifters so there's like .020 of hydraulic travel after preload is set. The .020 is lash so it's like a hydraulic solid hybrid. Super comp requires a hydraulic lifter so it passes tech requirements.
Definitely
Hydraulic cam has enough duration to pump the lifter before lifting the valve, now if you're on a huge budget, mean no money, go through all your dads old parts and do it, it will be a high reving track cam, vs hydraulic lifters on a solid cam, makes a great tow cam, low rpm
Duration has absolutely zero to do with lifter pump up...
I think I’ve done it twice with no issues on a solid on hyd and solid on a hydraulic. It’s better with a solid on a hydraulic in my opinion. I ran solid morel lifter on a 680 hydraulic bullit cam until the lifter failed from my high miles on bbc 540. I don’t car for hydraulics on anything.
Definitely
I bult a Ford 302 with boss pistons and 351C 4v heads and a Boss 302 intake. I orded a Comp Cams 280H hyd cam and solid lifters and they told me it was ok just set valves to .012 and .018. Ran incredible for 2 years and sold it.
That's a lot of lash
i just swapped in morel solid rollers on my ford 349 n/a with a trickflow 242/246 hydraulic roller cam, ilI did bump spring pressure up a little and switch to titanium retainers to also help valve control, 0 lash cold has worked fine for me with aluminum heads and iron block so far.
Yes sir! That's the ticket!
What's your measured hot lash??? 0.004" to 0.006"?
You need about. 006 hot,
We used to do it on "Claimer" motors all the time.
Definitely
Thanks for the great explanation for us none mechanist out here that just enjoy getting to know the ins and outs of true race engines.
You're welcome!
I've been running this setup since it came out on Engine Masters. It works great! The lash has never needed adjustment and it runs to 8k. It allows for lash loops in case you were off a few degrees on your cam selection. It's also just nice to know you are losing nothing from inconsistent hyd lifters. This is only street driven, roughly 5k miles so far.
That's awesome!
you lost me on the graph, but I'm also at work and distracted. Great videos man!
We're running solid roller lifters on 408w with trickflow stage 5 cam. No issues at all and great up and torque.
Absolutely
Apples to oranges here, but in the G3 hemi world , we have NO off the shelf Solid roller cams , I run a set of Hydraulic body lifters that have been rebuilt with an alum plug replacing the hyd plunger , I run .008 lash cold . have about 4 years on this combo, 25k miles , I check the lash every oil change , and call it a day.(Smith Bros pushrods.)
@TaylorJensen-ys2cv definitely, it's hard to believe that platform doesn't have more valvetrain offerings
I do this on allot of street motors and race motors it works for sure!!!
Yep
Harley Davidson has hydraulic roller valve lifters since 1936. You could always and easily convert these solids. The pushrods are adjustable. They run great this way although a little noisier. Same cam.
I've done tins of harley stuff, never seen a hyd till late shovels
My 66 Fl came with hydraulic lifters. So did pans and I think knuckle heads too. Ul, and 45s were solid roller. Off the top of my head I think sportsters were solid roller but I imagine later sportsters had hydraulic rollers.
1948 actually for hydraulic roller lifters, first year pan head.
I have this set up in my stroked BB Olds. I've set the lash at .005 cold. This is only a street driven car. Whatever it is hot is what it is ;-)
Absolutely
I had a hydraulic flat tappet lifter fail and had to get to work on the next day. Put hydraulic roller lifters in that small block Chevy and then rebuilt it 2 weeks later. It's against the rules but it got me home. Don't do it. It will eventually screw stuff up but, I had no choice at the time. Y'all have a good one.
My 505 stroker RB mopar has hyd roller cam with solid lifters. It runs just fine
@stephenmitchell2322 no reason it shouldn't
did it for 30k miles in my small block works very well!
@@trevermonk8575 💯
Awesome content. You added a sub. Im not sure what software you use since I've been out of it a while, but looks similar to the old Jones software. And I do believe Steve went in the wrong direction of allowing the customer to dictate the build instead of building to the use case. It's definitely float, as you described, and 100% should have been a solid application. The ramp rates alone would be better, let alone AUC and lift. Probably could take some boost out of it, be more reliable, and still hit the target power. Thanks for commenting. 👍
@Kingsize24 thanks for supporting our channel
To throw a wrench in, back when there where not many options in the mid 70's we ran Hydraulic lifters at .013 lash on the old GM 2nd Design Z28 Off Road camshafts on the street, to knock them down a bit ran pretty well for the day.
Whew that's rough
I have a hydraulic roller 427 sbf in my 93 mustang coupe, and a solid roller 427 in my 88 mustang gt, .830 lift on the solid and .610 lift on the hydraulic roller. Almost triple the power one from the other
If it's triple the power the hyd cam was 1000% the wrong spec's
We have done this in an instance of a truck that needed the torque of a smaller cam which is hard to get in solid roller and a customer impatient to wait for a good set of retro hydraulics to come in stock, I should also add it was a big block Chevy and we will not install or warranty flat tappet cams. The customer is welcome to take it and install whatever cam they want but we we to our rules in order to not be to blame…. Point is the engine has something like 5 years and 70k on it with zero issues lash never moved when it came in 3 times to be checked at our auto repair side. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it as it can get complicated and be a cause for more confusion and constraints, other big thing is if someone who has no idea what they are doing fools with it they will screw it up really easily.
Interesting story!
I’ve been running solid lifters on hydraulic cams for years. The correct lash is very critical. Good video though. Thanks Daniel
Absolutely 💯
I think you answered it earlier. The hydraulic lifters Steve had in use were probably weak enough to allow the intake to be blown open and were holding the exhaust closed. It looks like there is a critical RPM where the lifters loose control and you can see it in his graphs.
Great stuff Daniel, thanks for taking the time to educate us on the subject!
Oh, and Steve needs to watch your channel too! Love his stuff but every so often you can see he doesn't know it all.
@@sesampley ha! Tyvm
It’s worth noting, Steve didn’t build the motor. He was getting a good base tuneup and making sure the combo worked.
@@brycedavis907 Absolutely, NO shade cast on Steve whatsoever!
Steve builds engines for a very specific use, drag and drive and these engines are built entirely different from the typical performance engines. These engines need to make runs, while driving a 1,000 + miles and idle sometimes for hours while sitting in traffic. Tom Bailey went in the 5.99 after a week of racing and driving a 1,000+ miles on a
Non max effort engine. He builds them to last and even though he did not build the engine in question this is what people go to him for. He has proven time and again, he builds engines, that power 4,200 lb cars that again run a 1,000 + miles and race 5 days in a row, and some for multiple events. He also only builds boosted engines.
@ I figured I’d mention it for all to know. It definitely helps understand why some things were not an ideal combination.
So my ol school engine builder combats the whole hydro lifter pump up issues by giving it more preload than asked for. So let’s say it’s a 1/4 turn he’ll give it a full extra turn so it can’t pump up completely therefore solving that problem of bleeding off. He’s been doing it for years with nothing but success
@@Turbojooe that's actually the opposite of how to combat the issue of "pumping up"
@ crazy isn’t lol but I don’t know what to say he’s been doing that for decades with no issues whatsoever. Imma solid roller guy so I can’t say anything more about it but like I said he’s been doing what i mentioned for so long and no issues. Heck I seen them son of a guns buzzing well past 7500rpm too boot. I’m gonna ask him in detail exactly how he is doing it now that you said this. lol.
@@TurbojooeThink about it... If the lifter is set to nearly bottomed out, it cant reduce "pump-up"," it would limit "bleed-down."
You just have the concepts and terms mixed up.
@ but it 100% reduces pump up how’s it pumping up when it went in brand new never run and installed tighter than “recommended” it can’t pump up 100% as the push rod/tight lash is preventing the lifer from doing so. Essentially your turning that normal lifted into a short travel one. Less pump up less bleed down. Like I said I’m a solid roller guy lol shit I learned to set lash workin on promods the hydro stuff isn’t my thing but it makes sense cause Anderson Motorsports says to do the same thing I mentioned in my previous comment. Their specific cam instructions say get tight and than 1 full turn not the typical 1/4 turn most people do. That same sequence I’ve seen stock/ford Motorsports lifers rev to 8k zero issue.
@@powellmachineinc I have seen Vizard talk at length about hydraulic lifter setup and testing. Lifters cannot pump up unless the valves float from inadequate spring pressure. Plunger nearly bottomed out leaves less room for air and thus the lifter plunger more accurately follows the cam profile. I have seen numerous LS pushrod length tests over the years and the more preload the more power the same cam makes. I have had a couple of actual LS7 engines apart doing cam swaps on them. GM ran the stock LS7s with ~0.130" preload on the lifter plungers due to the longer internal travel of the lifter plunger. Personally I would invest in short travel lifters myself, but the deep preload on the lifters has been a thing for years.
you know uncle tony's garage just had this exact topic but in reference to a purchase of parts. i think more people are fixing their cars and are becoming aware of the nuances of engine systems.
We always ran solid lifter on stock flat tappet cams back years ago when they were mandated by the racing organization
Flat tappet is a solid.
@ a
“flat tappet” is the lifter design. Can be either solid or hydraulic
It is a very interesting question. But what I find more interesting. Is average people, including myself. We have a knowledge that could get us in trouble building a motor. But our knowledge might save us money for a street build. Though really we could make common mistakes. We look to builders for the best bet answers for what we expect from our engines. There is always a stream of knowledge that builders can never share with some people because of understanding the big picture. Building an engine is not plug and play. Very simple. There's a mash up of details. Like swapping a cam. What else is in play. For a machinist everything is important. Watching these videos is never the answer for people to think they can just make the decision. But yes you can present the idea to your machinist. If he knows the details of your engine he will help you learn about the direction of your choice. Blue printing your engine will help you with the math of lifter, spring load, keepers, rockers and all of the upper rotating assembly. And what is needed. Especially to answer the question of what you expect from your engine. Keep it between the ditches guys.
@@barryhuddlestun3098 definitely!
That said lets run a regular solid lifter used on a hydraulic lifter cam but not a roller type, same thing applies, you need to have room for oil to get in there. Old adage is that a little loose is better than too tight...
I think I’ve done it twice with no issues on a solid on hyd and solid on a hydraulic.
Yep
Tberes alot of people that doubt steve. Yet hes proven his engines on all levels.
Definitely
Well, when we test the piston to valve clearance’s on high lift hydraulic cams, we use a pair of hydraulic lifters on one cylinder, with a layer of clay on the piston, and rotate the engine carefully more than 720° to make sure the cycle operated both valves 100%. no pump up required, and if there was enough clearance we installed the rest of the piston’s on the rods lubed the lobes and bottoms of the hydraulic lifters, pushem up tubes and rocker contact points ready for assembly, installed the actual heads I used a sawed off section of another head, with identical dimensions and valve-train components, I also used another section with a hogged out valve guide and a needle roller thrust bearing washer combination to fit an adjustable fly cutting tool set it at the minimum clearance over valve face diameter and with a collar on the stem set it to limit the cutting tool travel to match the minimum clearance bring each slug to tdc install with 4 bolts (snug) right after installing the pistons and rods, before trusting this jig I tested and weighed a full set to log the reduction in bob weight, and drill the throw weight holes accordingly but it worked out because the longer rods I used were a few (.01 - .03) heavier on the little end and I had only compensated for the wrist pin weight.) pushmatubes, and teeter-totters pre set the lash. and didn’t realize until after pre running the engine for the cam’s 10 minute break in, that I forgot to pull the solids out of #1, & stuck the hydraulic’s in the box of new solids as I fine tuned the valve lash. Luckily I ran a spare intake with a reusable gasket and coolant jacket bypass tubes for initial run in, I swapped the lifters & installed the new manifold and only had to adjust the last two valves. (30+ years ago.)
Lift doesn't really cause ptv issues
I liked my Rhoads lifters. They bleed down at idle to tame idle and act as a solid at revs. It certainly did the job and gave another easy 500 rpm up top. But I always preferred the solid lifter cam setup but the valve train always took a hammering and noisy. Running zero cold lash with hyd lift solid cam must be quiet and easy on the valvetrain. I will certainly try.
A hyd lifter with a high bleed rate at idle also has a high bleed rate at 6k rpm, it's just physics
@powellmachineinc I experimented with them quite a bit "back in the day."
They did sometimes seem to slightly help with idle, vacuum, and perhaps a little low end torque.
But they also consistently killed some top end power. (Add in some noise and fear of self destruction)
As Daniel says physics. Though even Milliseconds become functionally shorter as crankspeed increases...
My best success with high bleed rate lifters was an inefficient crutch for insufficient displacement combined with absurd cam profiles. It was fun, but a better matched combo is superior.
Thanks
@@roadrunner4404 our pleasure
Just guessing, it was a problem with hydraulic lifters and relatively weak valve springs coming in at a certain RPM . If the lifters were pumping up and holding the intake valves open too long allowing the compression stroke to force air back into the intake it might cause the spike.