Testing Carbon black as a carbon source for black powder Sodium Nitrate Black Powder • Sodium Nitrate Black P... Toilet Paper Makes THE BEST Black Powder? • Toilet Paper Makes THE...
I almost commented on an earlier video when you mentioned trying this that you shouldn't bother, but I was curious *how bad* it would be. What people forget about carbon is that diamonds are "pure" carbon, graphite is "pure" carbon, same with graphene, buckeyballs, carbon nanotubes, charcoal, soot... Being pure carbon doesn't tell you anything about its properties because carbon can form an infinite number of molecular configurations. A diamond is a single giant molecule of chained carbon atoms. A lump of charcoal can be made just as pure carbon as a diamond but that doesn't make them the same thing. Lampblack can be made on a spectrum of molecular configurations, but most of the commercial stuff is closer in properties to graphite than to charcoal. I'm certain most of it doesn't even burn in your powder and it would have hardly been flammable at all had it not been for the sulfur.
Couldn't have put it better and I was also going to comment previous to not waste your time, but people usually only believe what they see. Carbon Black, CAS# 1333-86-4 is mainly used for coloring Rubber like tires and making them more durable. Lamp Black has the same CAS#, but its properties are different. So technically they are NOT the same thing as people want to think. Lamp Black is mainly used as a pigment for coloring anything and everything from Concrete to Paper. It would be worse than Carbon Black. Don't bother.
Carbon black was mixed with diesel then sprayed on frozen rivers from helicopters to hasten the spring break-up! This was done in the early fifties in British Columbia on the Kamano power project. Imagine doing that today!
You may not be a chemist, but you certainly are a scientist. Your methodology for your search for the most powerful and most clean burning antique muzzleloader propellant shows this. Thank you for your diligence in your search. All good videos!
It had to be done. Thanks, Jake, for proving (or disproving) a concept. You satisfied *MY* curiosity!! Still wondering if brown, institutional grade paper towel will make a good charcoal. Best wishes!
I think the toilet paper powder needs to expanded on with a variety of different types. You obviously got lucky by trying the cottonelle first. We would definitely be curious to see a range of 5 or 6 common brands (in all your free time) that show super thick fluffy paper down to that nasty tissue paper single ply junk. There may be a gem hiding amongst the proverbial turds.
One kind of toilet paper that I think should be looked into is that brown toilet paper/papertowels that are in school bathrooms. That stuff rough, but for some reason layered to hell and back.
Suggestion for sulfurless black powder. Pure ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in place of sulfur. It has virtually the same fuel content as sulfur and has similar catalytic properties. It might be worth trying if you want to expand on the sulfurless BP experiment.
Ascorbic acid does not have the low melting point of sulfur and won’t “pressure weld” together the way sulfur does. It might make a pyrotechnic grade of BP, but I doubt it will work in a flintlock.
@@Miningpastpresentfuture Maybe, but 375F isn't extraordinarily higher of a melting point. Another suggestion I was going to make would be sodium benzoate. I'm afraid that might be a little too spicy if it works though.
Playing with the power of a benzene ring would make me a little nervous, but it probably would not be catastrophic. I have to admit it has been too many years since college organic chemistry for me to predict what the energy release would be.
My family had an oil burning furnace when I was a boy and my dad cleaned it every spring. He'd save some of the soot for my baseball team to put under our eyes to reduce glare like the pros. Thanks for reminding me of that
the answer to why it doesn't work well is because of the nano structure. the carbon from your charcoal had a porosity to it that when mixed with the other chemical holds on to the powders molecularly. the carbon black has a nano structure more like glass leading to less contact with the carbon. I hope that makes sense
This is something I suspected too. If this wasn't an important effect, the different sources of charcoal wouldn't matter, would it? Didn't think black powder could be this complicated.
Man, I have seen some fouling from shooting a weekend of 58 cal blanks, but that takes the prize. I think the Toilet Paper powder shows a lot of promise since it was no more dirty than some commercial powders. I enjoy your presentations.
Oh Lord, the sheer rifle abuse, that must've hurt! All fireworks industry manuals recommend not using lamp black instead of charcoal in lift charges etc, and you see why. Its mostly used that i saw in primers and road flares. I saw a report formulation with it but it was heavily aluminized. Dont use powdered metals in antique.. because they burn so hot crystals of corundum (sandpaper grit) formed from the aluminium will "weld" to your barrel, and also mess with the rifling. Its great that you did this, and having big unexpected successes alternating with epic failures only increases the joy of watching your videos, because everything no matter how zany gets an objective test to make the most of it, and its standardizes so people can compare. Don't take the wile e coyote moments as personal failure, you run the best powder video series of the internet! 51 btw, not a pipsqueak yapping :)
If I remember correctly, I read in an American Fireworks News article that charcoal from pine sawdust or douglass fir works well. That's an old memory, though. Also, the author had good results with balsa, if I remember correctly. There were advantages to each, though.... old memory.
Regardless of the cellulose source (like wood or toilet paper) which is heated to produce charcoal for black powder, it is important to carefully control the degree of heat applied during pyrolysis. The buckthorn alder Swiss uses for their superior product is carefully controlled to never exceed 600F during pyrolysis. That is because the result is a mixture of carbon complexed with a variety of hydrocarbon moieties bound to the carbon molecules. Though not scientifically proven as far as I know, these hydrocarbon remnants in charcoal are thought to be reactive catalysts during the burn enabling oxygen provided by the potassium nitrate to more efficiently and quickly react with the charcoal to produce heat. Additionally, since these are hydrocarbons, they burn as well adding to the overall heat generated during the burn. If the temperature during pyrolysis exceeds 600F, a large percentage of the hydrocarbon moieties are driven off reducing this effect and slowing down the burn.
I second. Look at the Japanese and they are sticklers for temperature control during the process. They are masters of making superb charcoal, for cooking anyway.
years ago experimenting with axle grease to cover the projectiles in a 58 rem copy ,,i quickly discovered the gun locked up after 2 cylinders , i guess petroleum products just dont work with black , another great presentation , cheers big ears from down under
I think you are a very entertaining person to listen to. The way you tempo yourself and the more casual tone of your presentations make your materials easily digestible, though i have never owned a bp firearm myself.
Well thanks for the video anyway Jake it wasn't a total complete waste of time because now we know we don't want to use that and thank you for finding that out for us appreciate you man
Many years ago when I live in England (1989) I use to make my own black powder (mostly for visual effects for American Civil War re-enactment) and I wish you would of done these videos then BECAUSE I and my friends use to go 20 miles to to buy willow wood as the main wood sellers near us didn't sell it and we thought we have to use willow 🙃
Great job going through the various sources of carbon and confirming (or denying) their suitability for antique muzzleloader propellant. Has anyone suggested using mesquite for a carbon source? Your propellant series is especially interesting, as the firing of a muzzleloader has two primary components - performance and cleanliness. These components seem related - powerful propellant burns more fully, leaving less fouling and is therefore (possibly) easier to clean. It's a fascinating topic, both scientific and historic. Thank you for the effort you put into these videos.
Lamp black is a soot accumulation as you surmise. I heard it sucks too and I think it's the 2@& 3 dimensional multiple forms of carbon that you are exploring. BTW, I just replicated your TP powder (Cottonelle) and it's awesome, it's also the fluffiest charcoal I've ever made, a quart only weighs 2.5g. I think that surface area contributes to a faster chemical conversion to gases and solid byproducts..that translates to increased velocity. Now...think about oxidizers like perchlorate, guanidine nitrate, burning rate catalysts, and consider your flintlock ignites more from deflagration more than a shock wave, 209 primer is awesome. Keep it up brother!
You need 15grams of charcoal to make a hundred gram batch. If a quart of Cottonelle charcoal only weighs 2.5 grams, you would need 6 quarts. Are you sure that weight is correct? Should that be 25 grams, not 2.5?
about 3:30 This is a GREAT example of choking up on the rod and "wanging" for new guys. You can very clearly see the rod come to a dead stop when the ball is not seated, and obviously bouncing when it is seated.
The problem is the charcoal has the benefit of having a lot of surface area. Light for volume. Carbon black is wanting it to be a dense additive, used as a pigment, you want it heavy for volume with very small particle size. This is the exact opposite of charcoal.
Hemp Crete, Hemp Hurd, for making hempcrete blocks - is sold in 50lbs bags and can be found for $1-2/lb. Or try Hemp Hurd animal bedding for barns, $1/lb. The "hurd" is the dense center of the stalk after removing the fibers. Harvesting requires tungsten steel blades on farm equipment because it's 7x stronger than steel. Check out the old WWII movie, "Hemp for victory." Hempcrete Hurd without the lime binder, might give you more bang for your buck than toilet paper.
Good video. for wood sources I am still holding out for you to give poplar a try. but if you want weird stuff you could always try tree leaves, corncobs, and grass. I remember reading that the chemical equation for black powder burning is not the most precises because at the time there was no way to capture the byproducts of combustion when it was under pressure and not being able to identify positively impurities or trace molecules. black powder is more than nitrate, sulfur, and carbon.
We dont have any commercial blackpowder available im my country, and this makes near to impossible for me to use my side-by-side shotgun with Damascus barrels, suitable only for blackpowder. So i decided to make my own. Instead of making traditional BP,i decided to make substitute, consisting of potassium nitrate, ascorbic acid and iron oxide as a catalyst. Ang literally couple of days ago after several weeks of experiments i made first batch of really fast burning meal. Next week im planning to corn it using dextrine and will try to shoot it during weekend, if weather will allow it. Ascorbic acid gunpowder has several advantages over traditional, like cleaner burning, more pleasant odor, higher energy. Although it also has some disadvantages, like higher hydroscopics. But it definitely works, works fine and worth a try.
The molecular structure of the final product is what matters, not that it is "pure carbon", it's what structure that carbon is in that matters as well as what contaminates it contains within that structure. That is why carbon from cellulose products e.g. wood etc. is used, it has been found to have the best resulting molecular structure for propellants once it has been turned to carbon. The purer you can make that structure the faster it will propel your projectiles and the cleaner it will burn. It isn't the carbon itself you want pure, because if that were the case crushed diamonds or coal would work amazing but they don't because they have the wrong molecular structure to do what you are trying to accomplish.
the Hydrogen in the charcoal gives the blackpowder the powder. They used the brown charcoal (rich on hydrogen compounds) for fast burning hunting powder. The first "modern" battleship gunpowder was the same they used straw and heated it with overheated steam around 170-200C with this methode you enrich the hydrogen it works with normal wood too. It was less abrassive than smokeless powder and it was compressed to an desteny of 2.0
I think "carbon black" or "lamp black" refer more to a process for making the material rather than its exact composition, which probably depends on the source material, just like "charcoal" is not all the same. Lamp black is just soot that is deposited by placing a cold surface in the reducing part of a flame. This is similar to exploiting the pyrolysis which happens in making charcoal. The key is to stop the combustion reaction by having a lack of oxygen (or in the lamp black case, to cool off the partially-combusted particulate matter so it cannot continue to burn).
In science, a failed experiment is still a data point and you learn something. In this case what not to use. Love these videos, keep them coming. I wonder how baking flour would work?
Love these experiments. 👍. Until you mentioned that carbon black was sourced from petroleum-based products, I was thinking it would be very good. Once I heard "petroleum-based" I was visualizing trouble. In my experience petroleum-based bullet lubes yield a hard and difficult to clean fouling in BP firearms. Natural based lubes only need soap and warm water for cleanup. In my experience, petroleum-based products are "bad news" around BP. And yes, the source of the carbon is the single factor that most affects how good the powder is. Proven by the world's militaries in the early 1800's, and reproven by modern day makers.
What makes soft wood charcoal and, in your case, toilet paper, a good carbon source for black powder, is how porous it is. The sulfur and the potassium nitrate crystals can lodge themselves inside the micro-pores of the grains of carbon, becoming thoroughly mixed. Hard woods and "pure" sources of carbon, such as graphite, do not have these pores, the sulfur and the crystals of potassium nitrate end up on the surface of the grains, so they don't mix as well.
@@sbreheny Though the charcoal is milled to a fine powder with an average of 100µm, these pores are still only a couple micrometers in size. They're not destroyed by the milling, the process likely makes them cover an even bigger surface area of the grains compared to its volume.
Well if your looking for a clean carbon.. I only know this from working at a carbon plant. But water filters use carbon made from coconut shells. It's a very dense very hard carbon. Could be worth a shot.
Anthracite coal is very difficult to ignite. Anyone trying to light a blacksmiths forge will know it will not light with a kitchen match or cigarette lighter. You need something flammable like cardboard or kindling wood to start it unless your forge has a propane burner/starter.
@@Miningpastpresentfuture I've seen some vids where they use ground coal blown thru a tube and ignited to melt metals, and its like a jet engine. I burn lump bit coal for heat, yes, very hard to get it lit.
The key is it burns well and hot. For BP it needs to burn ultra rapidly. I think the coke would be like the carbon black, but what the heck, someone give it a try!
Lamp black was originally the soot scraped from a kerosene lamp chimney. No clue how it's made now, but you mentioned a smell and that it was oily. That would fit.
You know what it might be. Lamp black being soot that came off of fire. Might mean that it's the most stable of the carbon being burned. Think about it it's already managed to go through temperatures hot enough to ignite in the flame but didn't. Also think about all the extra baffles and things we put in wood stoves to get the temperatures in their hot enough to burn that stuff.
Lamp black is used in fireworks for smoke and slow burning effects or firework punks. So I figured the carbon black would turn out similar. Well we know for sure now.
Again, another very interesting video, these videos are without a doubt the best on the testing of material that could be used for Antique muzzleloading propellant that can be found anywhere around!! Jake I hope that some day you will make one on the Bamboo T.P. I would really be interested in seeing how that stuff works, thanks again for another entertaining and informative video, keep up the excellent work!!!!
I noticed you go by the bounce of your ramrod more than a specific mark or depth for a seating indicator. I learn something every time I watch your videos. Keep them coming.
Well, I had to do that with this because I needed to make sure it was seated and when the ramrod bounces, I know that the ball is seated against the powder
Have noticed that velocity is inversely proportional to the number of times you miss your pocket with the power flask.😅😅 Also, obviously, carbon black is made from extracting the fowling from previously used patches.
I am glad you made this video... but I had my doubts when you mentioned it in your last video... and why I keep watching your experiments... saves me from making the same mistakes... love your content...
Hey Jake, Thank You for your sacrifice and the loooong hours cleaning all that ca ca yucky stuff! But how else would you have known? Many Blessings and keep your powder muzzled! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
The literature is clear on this. For good B.P. it's not important to merely have the correct amount of carbon for a stoichiometric mix. Charcoal contains chemicals other than the element, carbon, that aid in combustion. Obviously, our forefathers tried lampblack, too. I'M HAPPY YOU TRIED IT. A large part of science is verifying others' results. Thank you.
Out of probably "morbid" curiosity I would like to see what you get trying to make black powder using tar. I fully expect it to be terrible but knowing is entirely different from thinking. Practically making charcoal from grass clippings would be great if it works because grass clippings are everywhere.
I've been in the oil and gas business (control design for over 1/2 of it) for about 46 years. When I was a kid we lived in Borger, TX and my dad was a construction superintendent in the Carbon Black plant west of town. As I remember it hey were increasing the size of the bag filters, which increased the recovery of carbon black. "Black" is made by burning gas, oil, or both extra rich. If you've ever lit a cutting torch or rosebud you've seen the soot that is formed if a hydrocarbon is burning rich. The soot is trapped in the bag filters. Once a bank of filters is "full" they switch to a new set, "puff" the set that are dirty (not sure how that was done, I was a teenager and that's how he explained it) to recover the carbon black. FYI- "petroleum product" = hydrocarbon = a molecule of hydrogen and carbon with a ratio of CnH2n+2. For instance, propane = C3H8. That's all it is. It's about as green an energy source as it gets. I think properly combusted wood is likely to have more "things" in it that would make it a better source of carbon than carbon black. Black is too pure. It's literally just carbon. Now back to see what the video results are (bet I can guess).
Carbon black is not necessarily from a pure source. It could be from burning garbage. It is made in a similar way as your charcoal but it could be from anything. Plastics... wood... whatever. We had a guy come into the office wanting a building designed for his carbon black facility. He was planning on making it from municipal garbage. They would use the process in tandem with collecting the gas. So you basically are gasifying the garbage at the same time.
I will reiterate, yes, it was a bad one, but I think you were due a bad one, as the other recent trials were (serendipitous) and pretty impressive. (You like my new word?) Any-who, these trials are really beneficial for those wanting to make the best antique muzzle loading propellant. And you doing the work cuts out the headaches for the rest of us. Thank you.
Thank-you for this, it's told me everything I need to know. I have some carbon black I wasn't certain what to do with it as I didn't know how good/bad it was. I'm now off to make the first stage of BP, which is fiery propellant. It's BP mix not wetted or screened & it's great for pyrotechnics. I'll use the CB I have, thanks again, I'd have hated to waste it.
What I'm getting from this is that you want a relatively dense form of cellulose with as little lignin as possible. Perhaps a good test would be a roll of plain brown packing paper versus an identical roll of printer-grade paper? Alternatively, you could try bleaching strips of, say, pine by boiling in a sodium hydroxide solution to remove the lignin. Different boil times, washing steps etc can adjust the lignin level and wood pH as needed.
I worked in the wine industry almost 50 years and we used activated charcoal (carbon) to decolor and absorb off odors. It was food grade and pure. It made awful BP. My assessment: the impurities in other carbon sources actually benefit the reaction. I also tried using dusting sulfur (used in the vineyard to control pests and disease) and it performed poorly, too. It has an anti-caking additive. My assessment: the impurities inhibit the reaction. My final conclusion: Trail and error trumps science. I enjoy your videos. Thanks.
I am learning a lot! Thanks for the fun videos as well! I was somewhat deceived by the name of what was used, “lamp black”. In contrast with the toity paper, it seems its a “toss up and give it a shot”, “hit or miss” process with the type of char used. It does make for great videos!! Thanks again!
@@Everythingblackpowder I think you may have laser jet printed the inside of your barrel black. If you type in the "cas number" 1333-86-4 followed by the words; "laser jet" it appears to be laser jet toner minus the silicon dioxide (sand.)
It would be curious to see how your process affects the final outcome. You should try taking Swiss or Goex and run it through your process (wetting, pressing, pucking, and grinding it) and then testing it against itself as it come out of the bottle. You’d know your process is good if it averages the same chronograph results before and after.
There is a state known to experienced amateur pyrotechnists in which it is possible to mill your powder to the point it slows the burn rate. It has been hypothesized that this is due to a reduction in internal surface area of the charcoal. Also, Sporting grade powders like the Goex Fg series are typically glazed with graphite (to reduce dust IIRC) so you would then be incorporating a 4th material with very poor burn characteristics into your finished powder.
This was really interesting because of the duality of the lamp black. On the one hand it's a fairly concentrated carbon; on the other its kind of inherently sticky. There is probably a established cleaner way of harvesting it, and another process to refine the resinous element out. But it's gotta be a diminishing returns thing, and with the time invested at that point you might as well go torch some more toilet paper. Love these videos and the work your doing. Thanks.
Given the various materials and methods used in its production, lampblack or carbon black could have a large proportion of its weight present as unburned fuel (e.g.: oil, paraffin) and therefore NOT be even a very good source of carbon on a weight basis, much less pure.
I once made BP using darco filter powder. Darco is a very fine super activated charcoal for industrial filter purpose. I used it to filter impurities from petroleum solvents. It did not make good BP, the burn rate was slower than BP I made from hardwoods.
One thing many people misunderstand about charcoal is that it's not pure carbon. There are impurities in charcoal, mainly hydrogen and oxygen, that change the properties.
I almost commented on an earlier video when you mentioned trying this that you shouldn't bother, but I was curious *how bad* it would be. What people forget about carbon is that diamonds are "pure" carbon, graphite is "pure" carbon, same with graphene, buckeyballs, carbon nanotubes, charcoal, soot... Being pure carbon doesn't tell you anything about its properties because carbon can form an infinite number of molecular configurations. A diamond is a single giant molecule of chained carbon atoms. A lump of charcoal can be made just as pure carbon as a diamond but that doesn't make them the same thing. Lampblack can be made on a spectrum of molecular configurations, but most of the commercial stuff is closer in properties to graphite than to charcoal. I'm certain most of it doesn't even burn in your powder and it would have hardly been flammable at all had it not been for the sulfur.
Tru Dat!!!
Couldn't have put it better and I was also going to comment previous to not waste your time, but people usually only believe what they see. Carbon Black, CAS# 1333-86-4 is mainly used for coloring Rubber like tires and making them more durable. Lamp Black has the same CAS#, but its properties are different. So technically they are NOT the same thing as people want to think. Lamp Black is mainly used as a pigment for coloring anything and everything from Concrete to Paper. It would be worse than Carbon Black. Don't bother.
Charcoal, properly retorted for black powder is not pure carbon. It's 75-85% carbon.
@@pursaveer9027 Thank you semantic man. You might notice I said "can be made".
Okay I want him to use pure crushed diamonds!🤡 Actually, I'd like to see single atoms used, but Buckminsterfullerene might be interesting, too.
Carbon black was mixed with diesel then sprayed on frozen rivers from helicopters to hasten the spring break-up! This was done in the early fifties in British Columbia on the Kamano power project. Imagine doing that today!
You may not be a chemist, but you certainly are a scientist. Your methodology for your search for the most powerful and most clean burning antique muzzleloader propellant shows this. Thank you for your diligence in your search. All good videos!
In science when something doesn't work it is a success. In this case he has demonstrated that lampblack is not a good carbon source for black powder.
@@ThubanDraconis ??????
@@Royal-xh8db It means empirically that that doesn't work, and the other things do. It's a trend, a pattern, it's evidence.
I believe the word is Alchemist. ^.-.^ 👍
So we finally figured out how they actually make Pyrodex lol
It had to be done. Thanks, Jake, for proving (or disproving) a concept. You satisfied *MY* curiosity!!
Still wondering if brown, institutional grade paper towel will make a good charcoal. Best wishes!
Heard in chemistry, the best charcoal is made from coconut shells! Love your show Bro!!!
I think the toilet paper powder needs to expanded on with a variety of different types. You obviously got lucky by trying the cottonelle first. We would definitely be curious to see a range of 5 or 6 common brands (in all your free time) that show super thick fluffy paper down to that nasty tissue paper single ply junk. There may be a gem hiding amongst the proverbial turds.
Wonder how single ply bulk garbage TP would contend?
One kind of toilet paper that I think should be looked into is that brown toilet paper/papertowels that are in school bathrooms. That stuff rough, but for some reason layered to hell and back.
@@Brian-hf9tcprobably the same way that the TP does, you're going to wind up with dirty fingers.
I would like him to try straight-up Scott TP.
I wanna see the basic Scott paper
Suggestion for sulfurless black powder. Pure ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in place of sulfur. It has virtually the same fuel content as sulfur and has similar catalytic properties. It might be worth trying if you want to expand on the sulfurless BP experiment.
Ascorbic acid does not have the low melting point of sulfur and won’t “pressure weld” together the way sulfur does. It might make a pyrotechnic grade of BP, but I doubt it will work in a flintlock.
@@Miningpastpresentfuture Maybe, but 375F isn't extraordinarily higher of a melting point.
Another suggestion I was going to make would be sodium benzoate. I'm afraid that might be a little too spicy if it works though.
@@harrypeterson9287what is sodium benzonate derived from?
Playing with the power of a benzene ring would make me a little nervous, but it probably would not be catastrophic. I have to admit it has been too many years since college organic chemistry for me to predict what the energy release would be.
Maybe make some and see what it looks like burning it on the ground first.
My family had an oil burning furnace when I was a boy and my dad cleaned it every spring. He'd save some of the soot for my baseball team to put under our eyes to reduce glare like the pros.
Thanks for reminding me of that
the answer to why it doesn't work well is because of the nano structure. the carbon from your charcoal had a porosity to it that when mixed with the other chemical holds on to the powders molecularly. the carbon black has a nano structure more like glass leading to less contact with the carbon. I hope that makes sense
This is something I suspected too. If this wasn't an important effect, the different sources of charcoal wouldn't matter, would it? Didn't think black powder could be this complicated.
Man, I have seen some fouling from shooting a weekend of 58 cal blanks, but that takes the prize. I think the Toilet Paper powder shows a lot of promise since it was no more dirty than some commercial powders. I enjoy your presentations.
Thank you
Oh Lord, the sheer rifle abuse, that must've hurt! All fireworks industry manuals recommend not using lamp black instead of charcoal in lift charges etc, and you see why. Its mostly used that i saw in primers and road flares. I saw a report formulation with it but it was heavily aluminized. Dont use powdered metals in antique.. because they burn so hot crystals of corundum (sandpaper grit) formed from the aluminium will "weld" to your barrel, and also mess with the rifling.
Its great that you did this, and having big unexpected successes alternating with epic failures only increases the joy of watching your videos, because everything no matter how zany gets an objective test to make the most of it, and its standardizes so people can compare. Don't take the wile e coyote moments as personal failure, you run the best powder video series of the internet!
51 btw, not a pipsqueak yapping :)
Gonna dream about clean 1900 fps powder all night now...
His gun is going to explode... 😅
That powder exists, it's called H110 lol
The only way to do this is to start using some more powerful oxidizers, someone suggested using sodium benzonate I'm thinking that would be too spicy.
This video didn't suck. It may not have turned out like everyone would hope but it did tell us what not to use. Thank you!
It would be interesting to see how cheap stuff like dried leaves, dry hay, or sawdust would behave like
I wouldn't use hay or other grasses (bamboo by example). They have high concentrations of silica and could create hard to clean fouling.
If I remember correctly, I read in an American Fireworks News article that charcoal from pine sawdust or douglass fir works well. That's an old memory, though. Also, the author had good results with balsa, if I remember correctly. There were advantages to each, though.... old memory.
Regardless of the cellulose source (like wood or toilet paper) which is heated to produce charcoal for black powder, it is important to carefully control the degree of heat applied during pyrolysis. The buckthorn alder Swiss uses for their superior product is carefully controlled to never exceed 600F during pyrolysis. That is because the result is a mixture of carbon complexed with a variety of hydrocarbon moieties bound to the carbon molecules. Though not scientifically proven as far as I know, these hydrocarbon remnants in charcoal are thought to be reactive catalysts during the burn enabling oxygen provided by the potassium nitrate to more efficiently and quickly react with the charcoal to produce heat. Additionally, since these are hydrocarbons, they burn as well adding to the overall heat generated during the burn. If the temperature during pyrolysis exceeds 600F, a large percentage of the hydrocarbon moieties are driven off reducing this effect and slowing down the burn.
True. I lose significant velocity if my charcoal temps get over 600F. I try to stay under 550F.
I second. Look at the Japanese and they are sticklers for temperature control during the process. They are masters of making superb charcoal, for cooking anyway.
years ago experimenting with axle grease to cover the projectiles in a 58 rem copy ,,i quickly discovered the gun locked up after 2 cylinders , i guess petroleum products just dont work with black , another great presentation , cheers big ears from down under
You guys always have such a good time - always makes me smile. And informative too!
I think you are a very entertaining person to listen to. The way you tempo yourself and the more casual tone of your presentations make your materials easily digestible, though i have never owned a bp firearm myself.
Failures can be as important as victories. Good job.
Well thanks for the video anyway Jake it wasn't a total complete waste of time because now we know we don't want to use that and thank you for finding that out for us appreciate you man
Thank you
@@Everythingblackpowder no man thank you
Many years ago when I live in England (1989) I use to make my own black powder (mostly for visual effects for American Civil War re-enactment)
and I wish you would of done these videos then BECAUSE I and my friends use to go 20 miles to to buy willow wood as the main wood sellers near us didn't sell it and we thought we have to use willow 🙃
Great job going through the various sources of carbon and confirming (or denying) their suitability for antique muzzleloader propellant. Has anyone suggested using mesquite for a carbon source? Your propellant series is especially interesting, as the firing of a muzzleloader has two primary components - performance and cleanliness. These components seem related - powerful propellant burns more fully, leaving less fouling and is therefore (possibly) easier to clean. It's a fascinating topic, both scientific and historic. Thank you for the effort you put into these videos.
Lamp black is a soot accumulation as you surmise. I heard it sucks too and I think it's the 2@& 3 dimensional multiple forms of carbon that you are exploring. BTW, I just replicated your TP powder (Cottonelle) and it's awesome, it's also the fluffiest charcoal I've ever made, a quart only weighs 2.5g. I think that surface area contributes to a faster chemical conversion to gases and solid byproducts..that translates to increased velocity. Now...think about oxidizers like perchlorate, guanidine nitrate, burning rate catalysts, and consider your flintlock ignites more from deflagration more than a shock wave, 209 primer is awesome. Keep it up brother!
You need 15grams of charcoal to make a hundred gram batch. If a quart of Cottonelle charcoal only weighs 2.5 grams, you would need 6 quarts. Are you sure that weight is correct? Should that be 25 grams, not 2.5?
@@chaecoco2 Yes he fucked up, a roll of TP comes out to about an ounce.
about 3:30 This is a GREAT example of choking up on the rod and "wanging" for new guys. You can very clearly see the rod come to a dead stop when the ball is not seated, and obviously bouncing when it is seated.
The problem is the charcoal has the benefit of having a lot of surface area. Light for volume. Carbon black is wanting it to be a dense additive, used as a pigment, you want it heavy for volume with very small particle size. This is the exact opposite of charcoal.
It's printer toner without sand. (SiO2)
You should do a video where you list all the various black powders you have made, list the ingredients, and rate them on power speed and cleanliness.
Have you tried corn cobs? I'd kinda like to see that.
Not yet
Hemp Crete, Hemp Hurd, for making hempcrete blocks - is sold in 50lbs bags and can be found for $1-2/lb.
Or try Hemp Hurd animal bedding for barns, $1/lb.
The "hurd" is the dense center of the stalk after removing the fibers.
Harvesting requires tungsten steel blades on farm equipment because it's 7x stronger than steel.
Check out the old WWII movie, "Hemp for victory."
Hempcrete Hurd without the lime binder, might give you more bang for your buck than toilet paper.
Good video. for wood sources I am still holding out for you to give poplar a try. but if you want weird stuff you could always try tree leaves, corncobs, and grass. I remember reading that the chemical equation for black powder burning is not the most precises because at the time there was no way to capture the byproducts of combustion when it was under pressure and not being able to identify positively impurities or trace molecules. black powder is more than nitrate, sulfur, and carbon.
Straw is a readily available form of grass.
We dont have any commercial blackpowder available im my country, and this makes near to impossible for me to use my side-by-side shotgun with Damascus barrels, suitable only for blackpowder. So i decided to make my own. Instead of making traditional BP,i decided to make substitute, consisting of potassium nitrate, ascorbic acid and iron oxide as a catalyst. Ang literally couple of days ago after several weeks of experiments i made first batch of really fast burning meal. Next week im planning to corn it using dextrine and will try to shoot it during weekend, if weather will allow it. Ascorbic acid gunpowder has several advantages over traditional, like cleaner burning, more pleasant odor, higher energy. Although it also has some disadvantages, like higher hydroscopics. But it definitely works, works fine and worth a try.
Petcoke (petroleum coke) might be worth a try and of course standard printer/photocopier paper and paper towels.
Fascinating series. I can't stop watching these and wanting to try my own experiments.
The molecular structure of the final product is what matters, not that it is "pure carbon", it's what structure that carbon is in that matters as well as what contaminates it contains within that structure. That is why carbon from cellulose products e.g. wood etc. is used, it has been found to have the best resulting molecular structure for propellants once it has been turned to carbon. The purer you can make that structure the faster it will propel your projectiles and the cleaner it will burn. It isn't the carbon itself you want pure, because if that were the case crushed diamonds or coal would work amazing but they don't because they have the wrong molecular structure to do what you are trying to accomplish.
Try mimosa if you have not already. The primary use of carbon black is in the manufacture of rubber. Thanks for always sharing your work with us!
the Hydrogen in the charcoal gives the blackpowder the powder. They used the brown charcoal (rich on hydrogen compounds) for fast burning hunting powder. The first "modern" battleship gunpowder was the same they used straw and heated it with overheated steam around 170-200C with this methode you enrich the hydrogen it works with normal wood too. It was less abrassive than smokeless powder and it was compressed to an desteny of 2.0
I think "carbon black" or "lamp black" refer more to a process for making the material rather than its exact composition, which probably depends on the source material, just like "charcoal" is not all the same. Lamp black is just soot that is deposited by placing a cold surface in the reducing part of a flame. This is similar to exploiting the pyrolysis which happens in making charcoal. The key is to stop the combustion reaction by having a lack of oxygen (or in the lamp black case, to cool off the partially-combusted particulate matter so it cannot continue to burn).
Good description.
In science, a failed experiment is still a data point and you learn something. In this case what not to use. Love these videos, keep them coming. I wonder how baking flour would work?
Thank you
Love these experiments. 👍. Until you mentioned that carbon black was sourced from petroleum-based products, I was thinking it would be very good. Once I heard "petroleum-based" I was visualizing trouble. In my experience petroleum-based bullet lubes yield a hard and difficult to clean fouling in BP firearms. Natural based lubes only need soap and warm water for cleanup. In my experience, petroleum-based products are "bad news" around BP.
And yes, the source of the carbon is the single factor that most affects how good the powder is. Proven by the world's militaries in the early 1800's, and reproven by modern day makers.
What makes soft wood charcoal and, in your case, toilet paper, a good carbon source for black powder, is how porous it is. The sulfur and the potassium nitrate crystals can lodge themselves inside the micro-pores of the grains of carbon, becoming thoroughly mixed. Hard woods and "pure" sources of carbon, such as graphite, do not have these pores, the sulfur and the crystals of potassium nitrate end up on the surface of the grains, so they don't mix as well.
I would think that the ball milling process would make any porous structure of the initial carbon irrelevant.
@@sbreheny
Though the charcoal is milled to a fine powder with an average of 100µm, these pores are still only a couple micrometers in size. They're not destroyed by the milling, the process likely makes them cover an even bigger surface area of the grains compared to its volume.
Hmmmm bery interezting..
Thanks for that little 'nugget' of info, easily absorbed.
Well if your looking for a clean carbon.. I only know this from working at a carbon plant. But water filters use carbon made from coconut shells. It's a very dense very hard carbon. Could be worth a shot.
Such a tease
Clean, consistent, and fast.
As always, great content.
These are really fun and interesting experiments. I wonder how Anthracite or Coke would work? Thank for taking the time to film your adventures.
Anthracite coal is very difficult to ignite. Anyone trying to light a blacksmiths forge will know it will not light with a kitchen match or cigarette lighter. You need something flammable like cardboard or kindling wood to start it unless your forge has a propane burner/starter.
@@Miningpastpresentfuture I've seen some vids where they use ground coal blown thru a tube and ignited to melt metals, and its like a jet engine. I burn lump bit coal for heat, yes, very hard to get it lit.
@@Miningpastpresentfuture Burns so clean, though. And, as Damnation girl says, coal dust burns very well.
The key is it burns well and hot. For BP it needs to burn ultra rapidly. I think the coke would be like the carbon black, but what the heck, someone give it a try!
Thank you for your experiments and the time you spend doing/sharing all your knowledge and wisdom. Keep up the good work,
Thank You Jake.
Lamp black was originally the soot scraped from a kerosene lamp chimney. No clue how it's made now, but you mentioned a smell and that it was oily. That would fit.
Thanks for your videos. I enjoy watching and you have saved me from making lots of bad batches while learning.
You know what it might be. Lamp black being soot that came off of fire. Might mean that it's the most stable of the carbon being burned.
Think about it it's already managed to go through temperatures hot enough to ignite in the flame but didn't.
Also think about all the extra baffles and things we put in wood stoves to get the temperatures in their hot enough to burn that stuff.
Well, thats better than i expected. I kind of figured it might just become like the old Snakes we used to light off on the fourth of July.
Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. I've used lampblack in pyrotechnics, it's great for long-lasting sparks, but that's all.
Thank you for your videos.
Thank you
Great demonstration. I was afraid of that. Great show keep up the good work.
Thank you
Thank goodness the Kibler barrels are made so well, along with the rest of the rifle.
Lamp black is used in fireworks for smoke and slow burning effects or firework punks. So I figured the carbon black would turn out similar. Well we know for sure now.
Again, another very interesting video, these videos are without a doubt the best on the testing of material that could be used for Antique muzzleloading propellant that can be found anywhere around!! Jake I hope that some day you will make one on the Bamboo T.P. I would really be interested in seeing how that stuff works, thanks again for another entertaining and informative video, keep up the excellent work!!!!
I'm glad you tried.
I've been thinking about getting into black powder and I ran across your channel and now you have a new subscriber❤❤
Glad to hear it
I noticed you go by the bounce of your ramrod more than a specific mark or depth for a seating indicator. I learn something every time I watch your videos. Keep them coming.
Well, I had to do that with this because I needed to make sure it was seated and when the ramrod bounces, I know that the ball is seated against the powder
Thanks!
Have noticed that velocity is inversely proportional to the number of times you miss your pocket with the power flask.😅😅
Also, obviously, carbon black is made from extracting the fowling from previously used patches.
lol I hadn’t noticed
I am glad you made this video... but I had my doubts when you mentioned it in your last video... and why I keep watching your experiments... saves me from making the same mistakes... love your content...
Thank you
Muchisimas gracias por compartir estas pruebas.
Carbon Black is drrived from hydrocarbons, and its primary use is in making tires, but it has many other uses as well.
Hey Jake, Thank You for your sacrifice and the loooong hours cleaning all that ca ca yucky stuff! But how else would you have known? Many Blessings and keep your powder muzzled! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
Thanks for sharing. Tried Angle soft TP works ok.
I really like these videos. I am looking forward to see what the best carbon source will be.
I admire your courage
Thanks
The literature is clear on this. For good B.P. it's not important to merely have the correct amount of carbon for a stoichiometric mix. Charcoal contains chemicals other than the element, carbon, that aid in combustion. Obviously, our forefathers tried lampblack, too. I'M HAPPY YOU TRIED IT. A large part of science is verifying others' results. Thank you.
Out of probably "morbid" curiosity I would like to see what you get trying to make black powder using tar. I fully expect it to be terrible but knowing is entirely different from thinking.
Practically making charcoal from grass clippings would be great if it works because grass clippings are everywhere.
Activated charcoal would be interesting. Ammonium nitrate would be interesting to see if you can use the stuff
I've been in the oil and gas business (control design for over 1/2 of it) for about 46 years. When I was a kid we lived in Borger, TX and my dad was a construction superintendent in the Carbon Black plant west of town. As I remember it hey were increasing the size of the bag filters, which increased the recovery of carbon black. "Black" is made by burning gas, oil, or both extra rich. If you've ever lit a cutting torch or rosebud you've seen the soot that is formed if a hydrocarbon is burning rich.
The soot is trapped in the bag filters. Once a bank of filters is "full" they switch to a new set, "puff" the set that are dirty (not sure how that was done, I was a teenager and that's how he explained it) to recover the carbon black.
FYI- "petroleum product" = hydrocarbon = a molecule of hydrogen and carbon with a ratio of CnH2n+2. For instance, propane = C3H8. That's all it is. It's about as green an energy source as it gets.
I think properly combusted wood is likely to have more "things" in it that would make it a better source of carbon than carbon black. Black is too pure. It's literally just carbon. Now back to see what the video results are (bet I can guess).
Oh buddy I surely enjoyed the this demonstration!
Thanks Jake
The good the bad the ugly. All of these examples are great, even the fails.
Touché
Thank you
Please be encouraged and realize how appreciative we are. I’m in the Kibbler hunt and am now reinvigorated by your demonstrations.
Carbon black is not necessarily from a pure source. It could be from burning garbage. It is made in a similar way as your charcoal but it could be from anything. Plastics... wood... whatever. We had a guy come into the office wanting a building designed for his carbon black facility. He was planning on making it from municipal garbage. They would use the process in tandem with collecting the gas. So you basically are gasifying the garbage at the same time.
Thanks for the experiment. Damn that was a black patch! I hope you got a stump needs blasting.
I will reiterate, yes, it was a bad one, but I think you were due a bad one, as the other recent trials were (serendipitous) and pretty impressive. (You like my new word?) Any-who, these trials are really beneficial for those wanting to make the best antique muzzle loading propellant. And you doing the work cuts out the headaches for the rest of us. Thank you.
In my opinion your a Mad Scientist who's going to blow us all to kingdom come. Thank you doctor
No need to thank me. 😉
Thank you!
You're welcome!
I like all your videos. Keep up the great work. There's no shame in swabbing the bore after every shot.
Thank-you for this, it's told me everything I need to know. I have some carbon black I wasn't certain what to do with it as I didn't know how good/bad it was. I'm now off to make the first stage of BP, which is fiery propellant. It's BP mix not wetted or screened & it's great for pyrotechnics. I'll use the CB I have, thanks again, I'd have hated to waste it.
Graphite similarly will not preform well. Once again it’s because of the surface area of the carbon source not being large enough to burn efficiently.
Nothing ventured nothing gained! Man those reloads were rough lol
What I'm getting from this is that you want a relatively dense form of cellulose with as little lignin as possible. Perhaps a good test would be a roll of plain brown packing paper versus an identical roll of printer-grade paper? Alternatively, you could try bleaching strips of, say, pine by boiling in a sodium hydroxide solution to remove the lignin. Different boil times, washing steps etc can adjust the lignin level and wood pH as needed.
I worked in the wine industry almost 50 years and we used activated charcoal (carbon) to decolor and absorb off odors. It was food grade and pure. It made awful BP. My assessment: the impurities in other carbon sources actually benefit the reaction. I also tried using dusting sulfur (used in the vineyard to control pests and disease) and it performed poorly, too. It has an anti-caking additive. My assessment: the impurities inhibit the reaction. My final conclusion: Trail and error trumps science. I enjoy your videos. Thanks.
I am learning a lot! Thanks for the fun videos as well! I was somewhat deceived by the name of what was used, “lamp black”. In contrast with the toity paper, it seems its a “toss up and give it a shot”, “hit or miss” process with the type of char used. It does make for great videos!! Thanks again!
Thank you
@@Everythingblackpowder I think you may have laser jet printed the inside of your barrel black. If you type in the "cas number" 1333-86-4 followed by the words; "laser jet" it appears to be laser jet toner minus the silicon dioxide (sand.)
It would be curious to see how your process affects the final outcome. You should try taking Swiss or Goex and run it through your process (wetting, pressing, pucking, and grinding it) and then testing it against itself as it come out of the bottle. You’d know your process is good if it averages the same chronograph results before and after.
I would like to see this
There is a state known to experienced amateur pyrotechnists in which it is possible to mill your powder to the point it slows the burn rate. It has been hypothesized that this is due to a reduction in internal surface area of the charcoal. Also, Sporting grade powders like the Goex Fg series are typically glazed with graphite (to reduce dust IIRC) so you would then be incorporating a 4th material with very poor burn characteristics into your finished powder.
The science goes on.
Another item to write off the list.
Thanks muchly and press on,
Very interesting!
hey how about corn cob for charcoal make sure all the corn is off the cob
This was really interesting because of the duality of the lamp black. On the one hand it's a fairly concentrated carbon; on the other its kind of inherently sticky. There is probably a established cleaner way of harvesting it, and another process to refine the resinous element out. But it's gotta be a diminishing returns thing, and with the time invested at that point you might as well go torch some more toilet paper.
Love these videos and the work your doing. Thanks.
Given the various materials and methods used in its production, lampblack or carbon black could have a large proportion of its weight present as unburned fuel (e.g.: oil, paraffin) and therefore NOT be even a very good source of carbon on a weight basis, much less pure.
Thank-You
Thank you
Thanks for your entertaining videos. I was wondering how Corn Starch may work.
Great video
I once made BP using darco filter powder. Darco is a very fine super activated charcoal for industrial filter purpose. I used it to filter impurities from petroleum solvents. It did not make good BP, the burn rate was slower than BP I made from hardwoods.
Lampblack is used in the making of Concrete to darken the color so it has to be cheap (which eventually sun-bleaches out).
One thing many people misunderstand about charcoal is that it's not pure carbon. There are impurities in charcoal, mainly hydrogen and oxygen, that change the properties.
Thanks for another interesting video. I'm surprised at the amount of fowling this stuff leaves behind.
I used the wood siding of my garage that burned up in a fire 😂 and worked pretty well. That I now will slowly transform my old garage into powder
The guy should sell his own blackpowder and call it “McBain’s”