How Two Free Black Women Upended the Religious Establishment
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- Host Harini Bhat tells the story of Rebecca Cox Jackson and Rebecca Perot, two free Black women in the 19th century who were partners in life and upended the religious establishment to create their own spiritual Shaker community.
While discussing their relationship, we'll ask more than simply, "Were the Two Rebeccas Queer?" and instead broaden the question to how we analyze and speak about the relationships between individuals who existed in a different time, with different societal standards, when people did not have the freedom and safety to live as openly LGBTQ.
In The Margins is a new series that covers the history they didn’t teach in school, exploring obscure, yet captivating tales that offer unique insights into their time and place.
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You can read the writings of Rebecca Jackson in "Gifts of Power: The Writings of Rebecca Jackson, Black Visionary, Shaker Eldress", edited by Jean McMahon Humez.
More about Rebecca Cox Jackson can be found in:
"Rituals of Desire: Spirit, Culture, and Sexuality in the Writings of Rebecca Cox Jackson" by Katherine Clay Bassard
And at these links:
www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part3/3p...
www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part3/3h...
home.shakerheritage.org/mothe...
qspirit.net/two-rebeccas-quee...
Check out the Philadelphia LGBT Mapping Project to see where the Two Rebeccas lived:
www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vie...
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Nothing like sitting down toward the end of the night and discovering an amazing story
What a riveting piece of History, so many great voices in this country that finally get the wider public eye they deserved so long ago.
"what was their word for it?" my soul 😭😭😭 im happy to have two more incredible black women to research
Beautiful story. I'm working on a documentary about my Aunt who was a Black woman murdered in 1957. Her case was never investigated (thoroughly) or solved and the media didn't help. This story really inspired me. Thank you.
What was her name?
❤
@@Templeanyasi Rosetta Westbrook Edwards.
Wow, how exciting but also sad. I'm a producer and I know what it's like telling a story close to you. Wishing you all the best, if there's anyway we can watch and follow please share!
@@lookatyou5809 censorship is real on the board.
so happy to see historical liberation efforts
So happy to see the first episode of the series! 👏🏽
Personal Freedoms for the marginalized women in society lets GO!
Jacksons story is so inspirational.
Queer history is so invigorating to learn. It makes my life feel like it extends into the past
ruclips.net/video/RFqJ5jLNIOM/видео.htmlsi=zvOBJDlH1wrWLHqd
I can’t take you serious bro lol
Can they really be called "queer" if they called for celibacy?
@@grovermartin6874 Asexuality and aromanticism are part of the queer umbrella. Celibacy isn't quite the same thing, but it's at least related.
What is queer got to do with the subject or that's your take on the subject as a whole?
Call me crazy but a celibate relationship may be considered asexual. Asexuality does not determine orientation as far as I understand.
I’ve been celibate for nearly 8 years and I honestly think it’s amazing. 💖
Celibacy is a choice to abstain from sex. Asexuality is the absence of sexual attraction towards others
@@kissit012there likely wouldn’t have been an alternate word back then. This is how she referred to herself.
I wonder if they would have been asexual but not aromantic - but just like they said in the video, those are today's terms
I think lesbian relationships have always been common. I think the difference is that no one thought of it as a romantic relationship during that time or throughout most of our history. It was just an intense friendship.
@@emem2863 I agree! My mother and her sister argue about whether their aunt was friends with her longtime roommate or lovers. Ultimately, it seems we'll never know
How have we not heard about these ladies?
They sound like a different kind of soul mates, incredibly lesbian. It's sad to think we are still fighting to protect our bodies, this story starts 200 years ago... How are we not more angry and yet we bring so much more love, light and culture.
With how much they preached about celibacy they could have also been ace. That doesn’t mean they weren’t partners though. Asexuals aren’t always aromantic.
That said these more modern terms are definitely not what they would’ve called themselves, if they even called themselves anything regarding their romantic or sexual identities.
@@Aerlas Lesbian is not a "modern term", it has actually been around since the 17th century. Homosexual people have existed FOREVER. Stop this homophobic bullshit. We don't know for sure if they were gay, but we don't know if they weren't either.
Isnt that unique. The thought that even in marriage you are allowed have agency over your own body.
Still a hurdle we have today with these patriachal religions. Tje truth has always been apparent. But very few jave been brave enough to stand up for it
@@DesertRose4True. No women had legal agency in those days, Black or white.
Lesbians?This like anything sounds like a lable.
Thank you for sharing this amazing and inspiring story! This sort of history is so refreshing and exciting to hear about: it's such a sharp contrast to the tragedy of slavery and the destruction of the Civil War. Amazing!
This an amazing story! There is also definitely an argument to be made here for an asexual orientation and a queer platonic relationship between these women.
If the relationship is platonic then why is it queer? (I'm asking a real question, trying to understand. If you perceive this differently, then please just ignore my question. I'm not in the mood for Internet arguing today.)
Even though they probably had a different word for it back then, if we look at their relationship from a modern lens, I would say they had a homoromantic asexual relationship. Possible lovers committed to a life of celibacy sounds like it would fit that mold to me.
I love learning about stories like this. History is always fascinating, because it shows that no matter the time or place, throughout every hardship and struggle, people have always been people.
A media connection to their story: Women of Brewster Pl.
Thank you
Beloved as well
"In a time when black women were not guaranteed freedom love or safety"... so now.
Funny, that’s what I was thinking.
It was much worse then. At least now we can go where we want and have money and no one freaks out if we can read.
Thank you for sharing this story! I will definitely be reading more about them. The stories of black queer women are often overlooked so to hear this published by pbs has been amazing. Also I love how respectful the animation team was by leaving one Rebecca faceless to honor her.
Say lesbian.
@@felisha209 Please don't be homophobic.
I immediately thought _gentleman jack,_ when I saw the thumbnail. And because it's june. Interesting herstory. Keep up the good work.
A very inspiring sapphic life story!
Its amazing how the standards put upon women throughout history, but especially during the 19th Century, created such a viscious cycle. On one hand, you would be ridiculed for traits such as kindness, meekness, generosity, and selflessness - these things framed as weak. On the other hand, all these traits were expected in a woman, and your marriage prospects would be greatly reduced should you not play into these stereotypes.
It is clear to me that the expectations of women took a turn for the worse following the Renaissance. In my eyes, this is due to many intersecting factors. Industrialisation and the introduction of capitalistic thinking saw social mobility suddenly increase, causing the aristocracy to seek other ways to differentiate themselves from the poors.
This is reflected in the tightening of social rules, and the move away from the colourful Rococo fashions. Fashion became more simple at a first glance, but the trick was in the details - wide bustle skirts or hoop skirts, delicate trains of silk, satin shoes and other trends indicated the wealth of the wearer by being far too impractical for day-to-day wear. These features marked someone who did not engage in physical labour.
During this period, the opportunities for males vastly increased, with the Asters and Vanderbilts rising to prominence. However, the discriminatory laws of the time prevented women from entering business independently of a male associate, and so the only avenue for a woman to advance her status was through marriage - a la dollar duchesses. The late Mrs Aster, who partnered with her husband to create their empire, was oncr accused of witchcraft as her competitors did not believe a woman could be so business savvy. This was the 19th Century.
In years past, where the divide between the aristocracy and "proletariat" - or peasants - there was little incentive for women to even try to follow the fashions of the nobility. Women, as men, worked manual labour jobs; there are records of women employed as blacksmiths in the Tower of London for example.
Furthermore, though discriminatory societal standards still existed to a high degree, these were not always reflected in law. Through the early to mid mediaeval period, law was more ad hoc. This allowed women some opportunity to enter traditionally male professions, as there was no legal regulations preventing them from doing so.
One of the factors often neglected during discussions of sexism in the 19th Century was education. Public education is often touted as something that was a universal positive; however, that may be a misconception. The standardisation and thus regulation of education put into writing what had previously only been an assumption: women, who had once had at least a chance at apprenticing as doctors and other professions - see the all female doctors clinics in New York during the 1840s - were now required to achieve a university degree... at establishments they were not allowed to attend.
The idea of standardising education was to increase safety and security for the average person, but it may have had the opposite effect for women and marginalised groups. This is exemplified through the destruction of the midwife. At the turn of the century, midwives regularly recorded far lower infant and mother mortalities than births overseen by doctors. This had created a lucrative women-dominated industry, and the men were displeased. This resulted in a coordinated smear campaign against the midwife: organisations, including the APHA, published articles slandering the midwife as uneducated and incompetent. Midwives were attacked on all fronts, and in some states even banned from practicing. Maternity hospitals were closed, and predictably, births became far more dangerous.
There was a time were the punishment for a male intruding on a birth was hanging.
These increasingly restrictive norms were only compounded by racial tensions. Black women were painted as aggressive, masculine, and unappealing. White women were contrasted as pale, frail, and unthreatening: needing of the white man's care. Add the tuberculosis epidemic to that, and you can successfully understand why the beauty standards so quickly pivoted from the curved Grecian woman, to the sickly Satine.
Tuberculosis also posed an existential threat to the superiority of white men: at the time a prediminantly European problem, white men would be reduced to skeletons by the disease, which at one point infected 70% of the population. This encouraged even further stratification between men and women, as a weak man needed an even weaker woman to maintain superiority. Thus, tape-worm diets and tightlacing were born.
Coalescing these factors, you get the destruction of women's spaces, the attack on women's health and wellness (with excercise being deemed as "dangerous" and tuberculosis "attractive"), hatred and distrust between black and white women, as well as the further erosion of women's economic independence.
And this is how it should be taught. It is ridiculous to me that the womens' liberation movement and the civil rights movement are taught as two entirely different events - they happened at the same time, and there was a lot of overlap.
This is the longest comment I've ever seen on RUclips... And I read every single word! Thank you for this. I'm going to dig deeper on this topic
@@todrapayne I'm glad you found this useful. If I may, I suggest starting with the "Great Male renunciation" - it's an interesting turning point in history that effectively illustrates the change in philosophy that led to the modern disparities between men and women's dress.
@@sparksfly6149 Okay. Thanks!
Great piece! I love Alice Walker’s take and the care that is taken in allowing people to name themselves and/or be in the liminality of their illegibility. I see within Jackson a queer politic at work, from her traveling without the protection of men to pursuing a life a celibacy to creating a community of likeminded black women. I’m honored to learn more about this history.
Fascinating! Thanks for making this!
Wow. Thank you.
I loved learning about these women, thank you
Thank you for giving this story a voice and sharing this rich history!
could descriptions also include names of contributors like, in this case, Monet Lewis-Timmons in addition to the host's name and works cited? It would make coming back to reference things a lot easier! Thanks for this great video
The host's name is in the summary included in the description
I think back then celibacy specifically referred to intercourse (penile/ vaginal in this case) and it was widely believed that two women could not have intercourse together. So I do think the two Rebecca's were sexually intimate with each other while remaining celibate by 1830's standards.
11:40- not sure about the US, but this was roughly the time in the UK before the discovery that "mania" was just the female sexual urge and act, it's entirely possible that not recognizing acts by females as sexual acts, they could be celibate by the definitions of their day but still have congress with one another.
Off to a great start with this series, terrific storytelling!!
They were spiritual sisters ❤ beautiful story. Thank you for educating us!
What an amazing story!
an intimate loving relationship
Amazing. First time hearing their story. Thank you 🎉
Thank you so much for sharing this. I appreciate it.
Amazing story! Thanks to the producers for bringing us this series.
Thank you for telling their stories! 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Very well produced, brava!
Beautifulllllll! Amazing history!
Incredible! Thank you❤❤❤
Incredible story & love the animations!!
thank you for this page of history I never heard of!
WOW! I am so grateful I got to hear this story of the Rebeccas. What an incredible testimate to queer love and spiritual calling. Despite incredible violence they faced, this women conjured spaces for community and healing. I will be praying to these ancestors
Beautiful story!
I love these PBS channel's. As a 50 year old heterosexual Caucasian male, I love continuing to learn about other people and their sense of self identity throughout history. This episode is perfect timing for Pride month. Can't wait to see future episodes. 🖖😎🤘🇨🇦❤️
I have lived 70 years, and have a master's degree (an undergraduate degree from an HBCU) and I have never heard of this story. Fascinating!
They say, you learn something new every day.
This came from a personal journal. No one would have known about this.
These journals get donated to museums after getting cleared out in homes of deceased relatives and just sits there until someone who is digging through the archives find it. Read it and get the "rights" of the story.
I love digging through museum archives looking for treasure.
@@kingsleylaurent562 thank you!
@umiiyabode you're welcome. What HBCU had the pleasure of having you?
I attended and graduated from FAMU c/o Spring 2007
Can you imagine all the great things we don’t know about our people?
Wow! Thank you for this❤
Fantastic story!
Wow, that was fascinating! It's so interesting to hear stories of people history would have missed for whatever reason.
And they were roommates! 👀
Even people in the comments are denying it. Sigh. 🙁
@@xdani_thethinkingneko nothing new tbh. There's always been people who pretend we don't exist because they can't bring themselves to understanding any bit of us.
@@jorgeguerrero2922 Women can have weirdly close relationships, doesn't equals queer or gay.
This was amazing. I'm in awe
If you deeply desire to put modern labels on the Rebecca's relationship, you could call it queerplatonic
Thank you
Its great to see examples that queer and asexual people can relate to which predate our modern ideas of queerness, and also an example of how Black people were rhought leaders even in the time of US slavery. Amazing video!
FASCINATING!! Wow I’d love to see more stories like these. It really warmed my heart and now our family is talking about it. My cousin and I are the only openly queer ppl in our African American family and this video has been a segway into knowing we have always been here and most importantly loved and worthy. THANKYOU ! Also the presenter did a fabulous job !
Thank you for sharing this unknown story in such a thoughtful way! IMO, queerness is about rejecting cisheteronormative relationships and ways of being. We'll never know the full nature of the Rebecca's relationship with each other, but we can still learn from them and thank them for making their own way!!
Wonderful, glad to have come by this video.
I 😅
No I don't want to ruin her story by making jokes especially durning pride month. But shout out to all the aunties and uncles who had to hide.
This is fascinating! Thank you sharing the Two Rebecca’s story
I love this! These are the stories we don't hear about enough. Thank you for doing the work ❤
Yeah I can’t do this I’m already crying
This was the best history story me and my partner heard about
3:30 This is glaringly parrell to the description of the orisha Oya.
Had the same thought!!!❤ this comment!
@@coulorfullymust be a fellow child :)
Okay ladies I feel you! Way 2 go!🎉 ❤❤
So interesting!
Interesting because precolonial African spirituality believes/ed in the duality of the masculine and feminine. Glad mama Rebecca she could see through the Euro-American influence of patriarchal cultural imperialism. Unfortunately Black folks, women and men and children, were beholden to the colonial society’s euro-cultural hegemony protocols just to survive day to day
This is a blanket statement that doesn't hold up.
Not all African spiritual believers see a singular good as being masculine and feminine
Patriarchy existed in precolonial africa as well: often male political leaders, polygyny but not polyandry, female sex slaves etc.
It's rather suspect to paint the whole continent of Africa with a wide brush and assign it one single spiritual belief. It's a big continent.
@@DizzyBusy any one with half a brain cell knows thats not the point being made here. do some reading.
@@DizzyBusy Anyone with half a brain cell and some critical thinking knows that's not what being said. Do some reading. be gone bots.
Love is love is love. ❤
What a gem 💎 of a video !!!! Thank you for this
ALSO EXCELLENT NARRATOR/NARRATION. Really appreciate the deliberate delivery & the speed/pace was perfect 👍 not too fast… not too slow…
That was very very interesting! Thank you so much for sharing
Amazing episode! I've never heard this story before
We cant forget ace and aroace people here although we don't know how these two would have identified today and also we must remember that celibacy has always been an integral part of Christianity its important to not forget that these two might have been ace/aroace just something to not forget
Wow I love gay black history
With a gay or were they celibate I'm confused
@@michellethomas9920 celibate.
Who told you it's gay.
At 11:05 @@lookatyou5809
@@michellethomas9920 I would guess that at the time the only sex considered real sex was male + female. It could also be that celibate was the safest way to describe herself.
Thank you for sharing this! Wow.
Thanks for telling this story! I look forward to more!
WOW
This is the history I would like to hear more of.
This story is amazing and interesting. Thank you for sharing!
This was so powerful. Thanks for posting!
One thing I think needs to be made clear is that no woman, regardless of skin color, had laws that protected her rights. The way this is written in the middle makes it sound like there were some and black women were excluded. Instead it is that no women had those rights and then on top of that you also have the threat of slavery for black women. It is far worse than it is portrayed, and one of the reasons Shaker women are so different and such a draw for her.
I'm happy ro know that she created a place a peace for herself and others in a time when noone cared if she ever knew peace.
Lovely, wonderful. Thank you!
It is so weird in pride month that Asexuality is not brought up in this video. so many times celibacy is brought up bought not Asexuality?? you can be a lesbian and asexual
YES! The A in LGBTQIA is always forgotten
I think the video does a good job of not assigning contemporary labels to their relationship - even the label of lesbian is questioned, as the guest says "what was their word for it". The women self-described as celibate, and there's no way for us today to know exactly why
@@Michelle-nw8yg if you can bring up that they might today call themselves lesbians you can also just say the word asexual. The complaint is not assigning their sexuality to them as I’m firmly on the side of self ID. The annoyance is with their refusal or lack of education leading them to say celibacy throughout the video but not once mentioning the modern way of talking about that would be under the asexual umbrella.
All celibacy isn't asexuality especially if it is due to religious and/or spiritual convictions.
@ashdacraft where's the u
Thank you for the important history lesson, I am grateful to be able to learn important history this Juneteenth and Pride Month.
When you said she took her name I was like wow, they were like... really good friends
It sounds similar to Parable of the Sower.
amazing story, thank you
This was so good!
Thank you for this story, I have been celebrate for over 15 years. It is often a subject that makes people uncomfortable or they poke jokes.,
This was so interesting! ❤
Extremely interesting story. I've heard of the Shakers but had no idea they were so awesome. The two Rebeccas were amazing and I'm just imaging her completely baffled husband by the turn of events.
Queer Platonic Ace-spec Queen.
Sounds as though they had an amazing beautiful wonderful comfortable relationship. That alone sounds so romantic. As someone else said they were soulmates of sorts. I pray to have a love like this 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
This is such great info. The sad thing is that we don't know much about the shakers as that religion if i am not mistaken had died out.
Yeah. Not having babies, tends to do that.
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Very interesting - the two, without knowing it, lived a very African spiritual tradition - at least among us of Bantu cultures - don’t know about others & the continental cultures are diverse. Female prophets & spiritual mediums/healers just like male ones always have a very close acolyte of the same sex. They often do not have children. No one questioned these relationships - these are people communicating with a higher dimension. But then came Europeans & they require neatly stacked and labelled boxes for everyone 😫
I'm so confused what thunderstorms have to do with celibacy.
😊
I find it hilarious that Anna Elizabeth Dickinson is mentioned here as a religious leader. She was a feminist and an abolitionist, but I don’t recall her being a spiritual person.
As someone who deconstructed western evangelical Christianity, and is picking up some intersection of Christianity, Satanism, and Witchcraft, THANK YOU for sharing this story!!!
#burbnbougie
Thank you for sharing this beautiful story.
Rebecca sounds worthy of consideration for sainthood.
It’s wrong to consider her a lesbian given her vow of celibacy and consecration of her body.
This is what a tzaddik is and what Jesus Christ taught us to be.
Immediate like.