Sorry about the mistake at 2:27, I definitely meant to say "the tree was cut down by the King's Men"! I have used the Editor to try and fix this. Thanks for pointing it out!
Erú not only destroyed Numenor but he changed the nature of the universe so that all ways were not straight anymore but round. That is, he changed the whole fabric of the universe from an Euclidian to an Einsteinian universe. This is power beyond comprehension.
Indeed. The fall of Númenor is a very important event, not only in the Legendarium but also as a warning for us humans to not get too greedy, too hungry for more than has been granted to us
I don't think Sauron expected the destruction of Númenor. His physical death damaged him permanently and I think he expected to take over Númenor once Ar-Pharazôn and his fleet were destroyed. Sauron would have then added its forces to his forces in Middle-Earth and used it to attack the Elves and the Faithful in Middle-Earth. Eru Ilúvatar's intervention changed all that.
"And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard thet rumpets of Ar-Pharazôn sounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and athird time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edainfor ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss"
A detail that I find very interesting is how sicknesses start to become a serious problem in Númenor *after* they begin worshipping Morgoth. Because I recall reading somewhere that Morgoth is responsible for physical diseases through his marring of Arda, so when the Númenóreans start to become violently ill more often, it's not because the Valar are punishing them, but because through their worship of Morgoth, they are welcoming his influence into their realm. It goes with what's said in the Akallabêth immediately after the statement about the sicknesses: that they feared death and "going out into the darkness, the realm of the master they had taken." I'd even wager that the lightnings that outright killed people were also a byproduct of Morgoth's taint, which according to Morgoth's Ring, is within the Earth itself, but could also be reinforced by the presence of Sauron. That's all just speculation on my part, tho. But honestly, the more I learn and think about the Fall of Númenor, the more I realize just how evil and downright deplorable Sauron's methods were.
The horror and tragedy of how easy it is for a whole nation or society of people to go down the wrong path. Yet even after such calamity, there is still hope for a long road to redemption afterward, in the next generation.
4:06 I like to think amandil succeeded in his mission which is why Eru didn’t smite Nummenor immediately the Valar gave every opportunity and warning For Ar Pharazon to back down but importantly Amandil’s efforts I believe convinced Eru and the Valar to stay their hand to buy enough time for Elendil and his sons to gather the remaining faithful of Numenor and prepare for the Exodus to middle earth. It’s terrifying to consider how many of the faithful were able to get out In time how many still remained in numenor id like to think Elendil and Isildir were able to get most of them out while the those few who couldn’t make in time were isolated households to far from andunie to make it to the ships or perhaps they were imprisoned about to be sacrificed to Melkor
Long before Eru & the valar sent doom upon Numenor, the hearts of many Numenorians had pridefully turned to darkness, human sacrifice, and worship of incarnate evil old & new. The evil Numenorians tried to invade Valinor.. to force Eru & the valar to submit to them, and grant them immortality on their terms. Sounds a lot like the 20th & 21st century to me. Hubris brings on Nemesis: overweening pride brings on doom and downfall. Behind his story of Numenor, Tolkien felt a great impending danger coming upon the world, like a looming super-wave hanging over everything. Great video.
Pride is the sin we cannot see in ourselves until it is too late, that ignorance coupled with fear of the unknown was used by Sauron to bring a once mighty kingdom and people to its doom, this has been a most fascinating chronicle of that dark time.
Man, imagine living in this crazy time, Half (a Larger Half) joined Ar-Pharazôn their king, (with Sauron) and the other half (the lesser Half) join Elendil!!! Also when the men are about to Assault Valinor, Númenor drowns, Manwë tries to get Númenor away, and then after all that, Eru Ilúvatar does the Finishing Blow...What a Crazy Time to live in!!! Thanks for this Video on What Happened During the Downfall of Númenor, Until Denethor's (Strange Tomato Eater) ECH...Marion Baggins Out!!! P.s Perfect Timing for the Book!!!
Your excellent content is ALWAYS informative, easy to understand, and fascinating - and always well deserving of my and every other viewers upvote. You explain things in a way that much of the content of Tolkein's works, while difficult at times to understand, are made much more clear to the viewer. You are clearly a student of these stories, and have a quite evident love of the material you cover.
Yoystan, I have been watching your videos for just under three years now, and I can’t say how much I cherish and appreciate the content you put out. Thank you for all your time and effort, and for your unflinching dedication that shows in the quality of your videos. Hope you and yours are doing well, wherever you are in Middle-earth. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for all you do!
"Nine ships there were: four for Elendil, and for Isildur three, and for Anárion two; and they fled before the black gale out of the twilight of doom into the darkness of the world."
Sometimes, I wonder if there was no way for Tar-Miriel to be spared the Downfall of Numenor. She was trapped in an arranged marriage, probably lived in misery since then, and instead she watches her kingdom destroyed because of Ar-Pharazon's hubris.
But if she kept faith, even though constrained, I think she and her father would have been reunited in Mandos, with Mandos Himself taking pity on them and teaching them true Knowledge before they went on to Iluvatar.
@@MenoftheWest but in the first version, Tar-Miriel was also a greedy queen, then Tolkien changed the story as far as I know. Yet still, I find this fitting, imagine, so many faithful people also died probably..that's the impact of god's intervention..not a fairytale-like, pure innocent touch but devastating, beyond moral compassion, powerful and destructive...this also reminds me the reader why we shouldn't keep asking why Eru didn't intervene despite all the suffering. because that's what you get with divine intervention, that's why it's the last resort.
Mae Govannon Mellon! Keep up the great work! All I can say about this is "Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world." - Elendil the Tall -
They saved the treasures of Numenor. 7 Palantiri, rod of annuminas, the sword of andruil and the stone of erech. The stone is large and important to carry across the sea. Is holds more power in the Fourth Age and the downfall of Men.
I wonder how the Stone of Erech was able to be transported on one of the 9 ships. It just seems so gigantic and yet the tradition is that it traveled from Numenor with the exiles. Amazing!
some legends and common knowledge. the Barrow downs; A source of dread legends within the shire. It is a place of ancient burial mounds, and hostile spirits. Balrog; an evil spirit raised from hell during the great wars which rocked the first age of the earth. At least one has survived to the period of our adventure by hiding in the roots of the misty mountains, where it was responsible for the destruction of moria several centuries ago.
@@Shane-or9de hail Shane. ( fellow Shane) fun fact , shane is an Irish name it translates into English as storyteller or singer . ( although they are the same thing in Gaelic)
The new book is fantastic!! Even though its not new content, its great to have all of the content in one book. I didn't even know about the story of Aldarion and Erendis much to my embarrasment, but its brilliant.
Elendil must have had the most cause for retribution against Sauron, the responsible one for the Apocalypse of his civilazation. Who somehow survived and challenged him again in Middle Earth
This more speculation from my view, but the Fall of Numenor reminded me a lot of the Great Flood or the fall of Atlantis --- mix between them. A powerful civililation, that soon grew arrogant and then punished by the gods by such pride.
This is a common storyline in our civilisation, the fall from grace due to arrogance. And Tolkien was surely aware of it. Not sure though if it exists also in east asian and mesoamerican culture. Anybody out there able to support?
That song you singed to at the end gave me chills. It was almost as if it would have been perfect to add for a separate LOTR project at least something outside of the Rings of Power Canon.
With the Elves being the first children, get invited into Valinor and granted immortal life, I can see why Man felt some type of way. Is it ever explained as to why the elves were immortal instead having the same life span as men?
Great video. Although I still have some thoughts on two issues here: First, the way I read it in "The Akallebeth" was that Sauron laughed when the Numenorian fleet sailed west because he knew no army of man could ever best the Host of Valinor. He laughed knowing he had fooled and manipulated Ar-Pharazon to sail to his death along with the entire army of Numenor. I do not believe Sauron would have planned for himself to die in the process. In fact, its more likely he expeceted the Valar to send their Hosts to Numenor, from where he would have escaped prior, to destory it once they had finished with Ar-Pharazon. I think Manwe turning the matter over to Eru himself was unforseen by all involved. Secondly, and for the life of me, I just cannot understand why the Numenorians would have allowed Sauron to keep the One Ring after they captured him. Man new of it and the abilities it was said to grant its wearer. Ar-Pharazon, obsessed with gaining immortality and power, would have surely taken it for himself. This is why I fervently believe that Sauron left the ring in Mordor prior to his capture and then reclaimed it later after the downfall of the island.
I still like to think that "The Mouth Of Sauron" is Ar- Pharezon. It would be so perfect in irony seeing that the last King of the island somehow surviving the invasion of The Undyling Lands due to Sauran's dark magic and becoming in reality, doomed to ever after becoming The Dark Lord's Servant and taking on that same role that Annatar was only pretending to be to him. To live out in the days after Numenor a humiliating and hellish existence to be a tortured and mutilated servant of the Dark Lord forced to bend his knee throughout the centuries-cursed by Sauron's Dark Magic to not die and become The "Reek" equivalent of Tolkien's Legendarium. It would be a terryfying and cautionary tale to what jealousy and blind ambition can do to someone who had everything (great strength, wealth, military might, the most powerful kingdom of Arda), except for the thing that he desired above all things, known as the gift of immortality. It was through that one selfish desire, that he sacrificed his great kingdom along with the vast majority of it's subjects to declare war on The Valor themselves. The cruelest irony of Ar-Pharezon's fate would have been that he actually would acheived what he so desperately sought for only to learn that the gift of immortality would actually be his curse and forced to suffer a fate far worse than death and worse than even The Nine themselves. His valor and dignity were agonizingly stripped away at the hands of his former King's Advisor. The torture and mutilation for the next hundreds and thousands of years had eventually saw his own self awareness to eventually sucumb and believing that he is nothing but a slave to serve at the pleasure of his Dark Lord that relishes in the satisfaction of his acheivement to slowly and mythoticaly destroy his largest threat of opposition with his grand plan that began the moment Numenor's great host of its mightly fleet invaded Middle Earth. The Dark Lord is anything but a fool and therefore not only saved Ar-Pharezon just to humliate him, but also because the "once" Mighty King would actually be useful as his new servant of Mordor due to his former life as a great king all of those thousands of years ago. It would have been a freaking awesome scenario to the character (in my oppinion), and about as Tolkien as it gets in it's themes of consequences coming around full circle once terrible desicions and deeds are executed. It's a testament to the genius of Tolkien to highlight the intelligence of Sauron by making his most effective servants ones that were once powerful Kings..........I also have an idea of who and what the character of Tom Bombadil actually is....... we have elves with perfect Fades nowadays so hold your fire on my little geeked out fantasy thought LOL
@@str.77 Its a fan fiction scenerio and whos to say that Sauron couldnt have have found a way through his vast magic and knowledge to abduct the king during those events. Obviously, it is not what happened in the story which is why I began my comment with, "I like to think..." instead of "I believe..."
@@markmicco1005 Oh my. Sauron was lucky to escape the Doom of Numenor. He couldn't have done something that would have gone against the Valar and Eru Himself.
@@str.77 Dude, let it go lol. Its a fantasy story that defies the rules reality. Its a cool little scenario that would have put another layer of awesome on top of that hot fudge sundae of great characters IF it actually happened bro...Maybe an inexpectlible anomaly like Tom Bombadil or something. Either way I don't think that it would have been the Doom of Tolkien's Masterwork. Again, IF it happened lmao
In my head canon it always made sense the faithful leaders were watched by the kings men , and they had those ships waiting for an emergency exodus, but i would suspect that just regular citizens who kept the faith were probably more free to quietly take ship for middle earth, maybe climbing they wanted to makeva life in the colonies in middle earth and the king men probably wouldn't have objected, as they would still ne in the kings realm , elendil ship i suspect were for vip , and wealth. And it would explain the size of the army's or his ability to build new cities. As well as the numenoreans in middle earth, ( it seems logical)
Tolkien did write about this. The Númenorean colonies in what would become Gondor and those farther north were where many of the Faithful settled before the destruction of Númenor while those who would become the Black Númenoreans settled farther south, such as in Umbar.
When the Valar play their "I win" card, and the celestial dictator turns the world from a flat plane into a sphere (along with massacring all the men, women and children on the island of Numenor), that is the worst immersion break for me in the whole legendarium. Firstly, for the fact that such an option exists in the first place, and secondly, because one does not simply turn a flat plane into a sphere without breaking literally the whole thing into dust and lava; it's a geometrical impossibility. (A cylinder or a torus could still work out somehow believably.)
One option, which wouldn't involve breaking the world, is that everyone was instantaneously teleported from a flat plane onto a sphere which was a close enough copy of the plane (everywhere locally) so that no-one would actually notice anything. But that wouldn't make sense either: one does not simply map the surface of a flat plane onto a sphere without completely screwing up the local geometry almost everywhere.
I’m not sure, it seems as though much of the Fall of Númenor book, while amazing, can be referenced in other HOME volumes. I’m not sure if I have much to add to the conversation, but I’ll keep it in mind 😄
"How did it come to this?" This would have been the disaster movie of the century. Thoughts of Pompeii and vesuvius come to mind, where escape seems impossible, utter destruction is before you and the presence of death itself is here. Terrifying thought but it's in moments like that that your true self comes out.
Numenor may have been sunked but Sauron did not expect those humans who could fight against him built their kingdom near Mordor. Since then, the opposing groups are now neighbors in the same continent.
I always took issue with the fact that Eru destroyed Númenor with such disregard for the innocent living on the Island, like Tar-Míriel. With a momentary thought, he would have been able to purge the evil doers that entered Valinor, without also killing every innocent. I find it interesting that Tolkien ... as a religious person ... went this far. Its as if he sees the injustice in our world and the fact that gods here either dont have a role to assist, or seemingly do the same evil ... and he added this as a way to state his misgivings about the intent of any all powerful god. Does he see them as potentially evil and capable of great harm on the innocent?
It is a way to rationalize all the "evil deeds" that are described in religious texts of abrahimic origin,the one all loving god causing great chaos and suffering being attributed to something we can not comprehend is just the easiest way to maintain the character of the narrative.
Short story Atlantis 2.0 Long version The island was sinked under the waves by eru himself He also trapped the mad numenorians on valinor in a sort of underground cavern until the end of times And finally he shifted valinor in a quasi different plane of existence metaphysical way.doing so he also changed the shape of the entire world from a flat earth to globe with only in mortals being able to reach the now shifted out valinor Of the numerous colonies in middle earth we know that they divided themselves between the faithful(arnor and Gondor) and the kings man(umbar and southern colonies) Sadly we know very little about the colonies of the kings man The most well documented is umbar and only because of its role during the first capture of sauron by ar pharazon And later because it was part of Gondor/its main naval rival
From a purely geologic perspective, the downfall as described sounds like the collapse of a volcano's magma chamber after all the magma has been blasted out. I know that Numenor is an allegory for Atlantis but I wonder if Tolkien had been inspired by the eruption of Santorini in ancient times Also, I remember reading somewhere (not sure about this) that when Sauron first surrendered to Ar-Pharazon, that had left is ring safe in Barad-Dur. That would make a lot more sense in how it was saved.
My biggest gripe was why Sauron didn't turn into a vampire and fly away before Numenor became flooded. Was he unfortunate to be on the coast or the port when it happened, or was he in complete shock that Eru Illuvatar himself took action and froze in horror? The truth is that Sauron just laughed at Numenor's downfall and chilled in his temple without any thought of escaping. This is kind of weird for a fallen maiar and dark lord who has valued self-preservation ever since he begged for his life when Huan defeated him.
A couple of things don’t make sense to me about Sauron in the downfall of Numenor. 1. Why was Sauron’s corporeal form destroyed in the downfall of Numenor? Sauron appeared fair to the Men of Numenor, because he had shape changed into a fair form. In the Elder Days, Sauron shape changed into the form of a winged vampire after being defeated by Huon the Hound of Valinor, and he flew away from Luthien. So, when Numenor fell, why didn’t Sauron shape change into a winged form, and fly back to Mordor, carrying the One Ring? 2. If Sauron’s corporeal form was destroyed in the Fall of Numenor because he had lost his ability to shape change, then how was he able to carry the One Ring, a corporeal object, back to Mordor?
Can you maybe answer why the dead marshes remains haunted or cursed and what caused them to be that way. No other battleground is like the dead marshes
@@theofficialphoenixtv5765 No I don't. I don't know how many soldiers there were on Númenor after the Kingsmen left for Valinor (nor do I know the number before)
i was confused by the timeline when reading the silmarillion. didn't sauron "infiltrate" the elves after the fall of numenor and create the one ring? i believe it read in the book that he could no longer appear fair to men after the fall on numenor, am i mistaken?
Ah yes the story of when the dark one convinced man to use his technology to rebel against the gods, and their civilization was destroyed for it.....a classic.
10 Reasons Númenor is Atlantis. 1. "The Men of the Three Houses were rewarded for their valour and faithful alliance, by being allowed to dwell 'western-most of all mortals', in the great 'Atlantis' isle of Númenóre" - Tolkien Letter 131 2. "The three main themes are thus The Delaying Elves that lingered in Middle-earth; Sauron's growth to a new Dark Lord, master and god of Men; and Numenor-Atlantis." - Ibid. 3. "This was because they had been allies of the Elves in the First Age, and had for that reason been granted the Atlantis isle of Númenor." - Tolkien Letter 144 4. "The particular 'myth' which lies behind this tale, and the mood both of Men and Elves at this time, is the Downfall of Númenor: a special variety of the Atlantis tradition." - Tolkien Letter 154 5. "So ended Númenor-Atlantis and all its glory." - Tolkien Letter 156 6. "Númenor, shortened form of Númenórë, is my own invention, compounded from numē-n, 'going down' (√ndū, nu), sunset. West, and nōrë 'land, country' = Westernesse. The legends of Númenórë are only in the background of The Lord of the Rings, though (of course) they were written first, and are only summarised in Appendix A. They are my own use for my own purposes of the Atlantis legend..." - Tolkien Letter 227 7. "My book was never finished², but some of it (the Númenórean-Atlantis theme) got into my trilogy eventually." - Tolkien Letter 252 8. "...I began an abortive book of time-travel of which the end was to be the presence of my hero in the drowning of Atlantis. This was to be called Númenor, the Land in the West." - Tolkien Letter 257 9. "Lewis took no pan in 'research into Númenor'. N. is my personal alteration of the Atlantis myth and/or tradition, and accommodation of it to my general mythology." - Tolkien Letter 276 10. "My effort, after a few promising chapters, ran dry: it was too long a way round to what I really wanted to make, a new version of the Atlantis legend. The final scene survives as The Downfall of Númenor." - Tolkien Letter 294
Elendil left with so few ships, how many fit into them? How could so few buikt sich mighty kingdoms and big cities and defeat Sauron's armines all in one lifetime?
Do not watch Rings of Power. Instead, give your watch time to talented people like Charlie Hopkinson, George the Giant Slayer, Nerdrotic, Men of the West, Council of the Rings, In Deep Geek, Disparu, The broken sword, Wizards and warriors, Kings and Generals and Tolkien Untangled. Please avoid Shill channels like Nerd of the rings (though I like his lore specific videos), Tolkien Professor (Signum university) etc.
![Before the Shadow: The Downfall of Númenor [Part One]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hDPL-NDvrqg/mqdefault.jpg)
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Sorry about the mistake at 2:27, I definitely meant to say "the tree was cut down by the King's Men"! I have used the Editor to try and fix this. Thanks for pointing it out!
Erú not only destroyed Numenor but he changed the nature of the universe so that all ways were not straight anymore but round. That is, he changed the whole fabric of the universe from an Euclidian to an Einsteinian universe. This is power beyond comprehension.
Númenor
@@Shane-or9de Go home, user-pu, you're drunk.
Well, more Newtonian than Einsteinian, but...
Relativity can be done in two dimensions in a sense btw
Eru is literally Yahweh.
Indeed. The fall of Númenor is a very important event, not only in the Legendarium but also as a warning for us humans to not get too greedy, too hungry for more than has been granted to us
Númenor
Indeed. I watched the video as well.
Tolkien bases it heavily on Atlantis
Which is now like Troy slowly showing itself as real
Just gotta find the city itself
And to not give into fear, especially fear centered around religious faith.
@@teleportedbreadfor3days ?
I don't think Sauron expected the destruction of Númenor. His physical death damaged him permanently and I think he expected to take over Númenor once Ar-Pharazôn and his fleet were destroyed. Sauron would have then added its forces to his forces in Middle-Earth and used it to attack the Elves and the Faithful in Middle-Earth. Eru Ilúvatar's intervention changed all that.
Yeah, I get the sense that Sauron was caught with his pants down.
The Akallabêth says so. He was too arrogant to correctly estimate he power of the Valar and Erú.
@@billmiller4972 he also thought they wouldn't care enough to do something.
"And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard thet rumpets of Ar-Pharazôn sounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and athird time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edainfor ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss"
For a guy who begged for his life in front of Huan, I am confused why Sauron didn't flee as a flying vampire the moment the flooding happened.
A detail that I find very interesting is how sicknesses start to become a serious problem in Númenor *after* they begin worshipping Morgoth. Because I recall reading somewhere that Morgoth is responsible for physical diseases through his marring of Arda, so when the Númenóreans start to become violently ill more often, it's not because the Valar are punishing them, but because through their worship of Morgoth, they are welcoming his influence into their realm. It goes with what's said in the Akallabêth immediately after the statement about the sicknesses: that they feared death and "going out into the darkness, the realm of the master they had taken."
I'd even wager that the lightnings that outright killed people were also a byproduct of Morgoth's taint, which according to Morgoth's Ring, is within the Earth itself, but could also be reinforced by the presence of Sauron. That's all just speculation on my part, tho.
But honestly, the more I learn and think about the Fall of Númenor, the more I realize just how evil and downright deplorable Sauron's methods were.
The horror and tragedy of how easy it is for a whole nation or society of people to go down the wrong path. Yet even after such calamity, there is still hope for a long road to redemption afterward, in the next generation.
4:06 I like to think amandil succeeded in his mission which is why Eru didn’t smite Nummenor immediately
the Valar gave every opportunity and warning For Ar Pharazon to back down but importantly Amandil’s efforts I believe convinced Eru and the Valar to stay their hand to buy enough time for Elendil and his sons to gather the remaining faithful of Numenor and prepare for the Exodus to middle earth.
It’s terrifying to consider how many of the faithful were able to get out In time how many still remained in numenor id like to think Elendil and Isildir were able to get most of them out while the those few who couldn’t make in time were isolated households to far from andunie to make it to the ships or perhaps they were imprisoned about to be sacrificed to Melkor
Long before Eru & the valar sent doom upon Numenor, the hearts of many Numenorians had pridefully turned to darkness, human sacrifice, and worship of incarnate evil old & new.
The evil Numenorians tried to invade Valinor.. to force Eru & the valar to submit to them, and grant them immortality on their terms.
Sounds a lot like the 20th & 21st century to me. Hubris brings on Nemesis: overweening pride brings on doom and downfall. Behind his story of Numenor, Tolkien felt a great impending danger coming upon the world, like a looming super-wave hanging over everything.
Great video.
Pride is the sin we cannot see in ourselves until it is too late, that ignorance coupled with fear of the unknown was used by Sauron to bring a once mighty kingdom and people to its doom, this has been a most fascinating chronicle of that dark time.
A “deep dive” into the downfall of Númenor…very clever
Lol I didn't even mean to do that, but thank you
Man, imagine living in this crazy time, Half (a Larger Half) joined Ar-Pharazôn their king, (with Sauron) and the other half (the lesser Half) join Elendil!!! Also when the men are about to Assault Valinor, Númenor drowns, Manwë tries to get Númenor away, and then after all that, Eru Ilúvatar does the Finishing Blow...What a Crazy Time to live in!!!
Thanks for this Video on What Happened During the Downfall of Númenor, Until Denethor's (Strange Tomato Eater) ECH...Marion Baggins Out!!!
P.s Perfect Timing for the Book!!!
I don't know anyone, who eats tomatoes like Denethor.
And yes, it was crazy time.
It baffles my mind how the best Tolkien RUclipsr, who has been the best for years, only has 372k subscribers. Great video, as always.
Your excellent content is ALWAYS informative, easy to understand, and fascinating - and always well deserving of my and every other viewers upvote. You explain things in a way that much of the content of Tolkein's works, while difficult at times to understand, are made much more clear to the viewer. You are clearly a student of these stories, and have a quite evident love of the material you cover.
Thanks so much Todd, I appreciate it buddy!
Yoystan, I have been watching your videos for just under three years now, and I can’t say how much I cherish and appreciate the content you put out. Thank you for all your time and effort, and for your unflinching dedication that shows in the quality of your videos.
Hope you and yours are doing well, wherever you are in Middle-earth. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for all you do!
I appreciate the very kind words 🙂 thank you so much. Thanks for watching!
"Nine ships there were: four for Elendil, and for Isildur three, and for Anárion two; and they fled before the black gale out of the twilight of doom into the darkness of the world."
Sometimes, I wonder if there was no way for Tar-Miriel to be spared the Downfall of Numenor. She was trapped in an arranged marriage, probably lived in misery since then, and instead she watches her kingdom destroyed because of Ar-Pharazon's hubris.
I agree, just as her father was also doomed to not save his people.
But if she kept faith, even though constrained, I think she and her father would have been reunited in Mandos, with Mandos Himself taking pity on them and teaching them true Knowledge before they went on to Iluvatar.
@paulwagner688 bruh they aren't Eldar. They don't go to Mandos' hall after death.
@@Dailyblazer19 no Men alsa go for a while, then leave it...
@@MenoftheWest but in the first version, Tar-Miriel was also a greedy queen, then Tolkien changed the story as far as I know. Yet still, I find this fitting, imagine, so many faithful people also died probably..that's the impact of god's intervention..not a fairytale-like, pure innocent touch but devastating, beyond moral compassion, powerful and destructive...this also reminds me the reader why we shouldn't keep asking why Eru didn't intervene despite all the suffering. because that's what you get with divine intervention, that's why it's the last resort.
Mae Govannon Mellon! Keep up the great work! All I can say about this is
"Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."
- Elendil the Tall -
Aragorn singing those words at his coronation was a beautiful moment
Elendil's words on arrival at Middle Earth show that even form disaster there is hope and determination to succeed in the future.
Those were the words that Aragorn sang at his coronation
Wonderfully done as always my friend
Keep to the Legendarium! You are among the faithful
The valar hated humans and what they allowed to happen to Numenor shows their disdain for me. They left men alone to fight against one of their own.
They saved the treasures of Numenor. 7 Palantiri, rod of annuminas, the sword of andruil and the stone of erech. The stone is large and important to carry across the sea. Is holds more power in the Fourth Age and the downfall of Men.
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I wonder how the Stone of Erech was able to be transported on one of the 9 ships. It just seems so gigantic and yet the tradition is that it traveled from Numenor with the exiles. Amazing!
And possibly the ring of Barahir, which might have been given to Elros at the end of the First Age.
some legends and common knowledge.
the Barrow downs; A source of dread legends within the shire. It is a place of ancient burial mounds, and hostile spirits.
Balrog; an evil spirit raised from hell during the great wars which rocked the first age of the earth. At least one has survived to the period of our adventure by hiding in the roots of the misty mountains, where it was responsible for the destruction of moria several centuries ago.
Awesome video Yoystan great cataclysm video
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Great subject, always appreciate the video's. Thanks
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@@Shane-or9de hail Shane. ( fellow Shane) fun fact , shane is an Irish name it translates into English as storyteller or singer . ( although they are the same thing in Gaelic)
The new book is fantastic!! Even though its not new content, its great to have all of the content in one book. I didn't even know about the story of Aldarion and Erendis much to my embarrasment, but its brilliant.
Elendil must have had the most cause for retribution against Sauron, the responsible one for the Apocalypse of his civilazation. Who somehow survived and challenged him again in Middle Earth
This more speculation from my view, but the Fall of Numenor reminded me a lot of the Great Flood or the fall of Atlantis --- mix between them. A powerful civililation, that soon grew arrogant and then punished by the gods by such pride.
This is a common storyline in our civilisation, the fall from grace due to arrogance. And Tolkien was surely aware of it.
Not sure though if it exists also in east asian and mesoamerican culture. Anybody out there able to support?
The King's Men see all the warning signs from the Valar:
"This is fine."
Another wonderful tale, thank you very much.
Rest assured Amazon will find some way to bastardize that as well.
Great video!
That song you singed to at the end gave me chills. It was almost as if it would have been perfect to add for a separate LOTR project at least something outside of the Rings of Power Canon.
sang
With the Elves being the first children, get invited into Valinor and granted immortal life, I can see why Man felt some type of way. Is it ever explained as to why the elves were immortal instead having the same life span as men?
Great video. Although I still have some thoughts on two issues here:
First, the way I read it in "The Akallebeth" was that Sauron laughed when the Numenorian fleet sailed west because he knew no army of man could ever best the Host of Valinor. He laughed knowing he had fooled and manipulated Ar-Pharazon to sail to his death along with the entire army of Numenor. I do not believe Sauron would have planned for himself to die in the process. In fact, its more likely he expeceted the Valar to send their Hosts to Numenor, from where he would have escaped prior, to destory it once they had finished with Ar-Pharazon. I think Manwe turning the matter over to Eru himself was unforseen by all involved.
Secondly, and for the life of me, I just cannot understand why the Numenorians would have allowed Sauron to keep the One Ring after they captured him. Man new of it and the abilities it was said to grant its wearer. Ar-Pharazon, obsessed with gaining immortality and power, would have surely taken it for himself. This is why I fervently believe that Sauron left the ring in Mordor prior to his capture and then reclaimed it later after the downfall of the island.
I still like to think that "The Mouth Of Sauron" is Ar- Pharezon. It would be so perfect in irony seeing that the last King of the island somehow surviving the invasion of The Undyling Lands due to Sauran's dark magic and becoming in reality, doomed to ever after becoming The Dark Lord's Servant and taking on that same role that Annatar was only pretending to be to him. To live out in the days after Numenor a humiliating and hellish existence to be a tortured and mutilated servant of the Dark Lord forced to bend his knee throughout the centuries-cursed by Sauron's Dark Magic to not die and become The "Reek" equivalent of Tolkien's Legendarium. It would be a terryfying and cautionary tale to what jealousy and blind ambition can do to someone who had everything (great strength, wealth, military might, the most powerful kingdom of Arda), except for the thing that he desired above all things, known as the gift of immortality. It was through that one selfish desire, that he sacrificed his great kingdom along with the vast majority of it's subjects to declare war on The Valor themselves. The cruelest irony of Ar-Pharezon's fate would have been that he actually would acheived what he so desperately sought for only to learn that the gift of immortality would actually be his curse and forced to suffer a fate far worse than death and worse than even The Nine themselves. His valor and dignity were agonizingly stripped away at the hands of his former King's Advisor. The torture and mutilation for the next hundreds and thousands of years had eventually saw his own self awareness to eventually sucumb and believing that he is nothing but a slave to serve at the pleasure of his Dark Lord that relishes in the satisfaction of his acheivement to slowly and mythoticaly destroy his largest threat of opposition with his grand plan that began the moment Numenor's great host of its mightly fleet invaded Middle Earth. The Dark Lord is anything but a fool and therefore not only saved Ar-Pharezon just to humliate him, but also because the "once" Mighty King would actually be useful as his new servant of Mordor due to his former life as a great king all of those thousands of years ago. It would have been a freaking awesome scenario to the character (in my oppinion), and about as Tolkien as it gets in it's themes of consequences coming around full circle once terrible desicions and deeds are executed. It's a testament to the genius of Tolkien to highlight the intelligence of Sauron by making his most effective servants ones that were once powerful Kings..........I also have an idea of who and what the character of Tom Bombadil actually is....... we have elves with perfect Fades nowadays so hold your fire on my little geeked out fantasy thought LOL
Ar-Pharazon actually survived his invasion. He is just buried under a huge pile of rocks awaiting his judgement. So no, he is not The Mouth Of Sauron.
@@str.77 Its a fan fiction scenerio and whos to say that Sauron couldnt have have found a way through his vast magic and knowledge to abduct the king during those events. Obviously, it is not what happened in the story which is why I began my comment with, "I like to think..." instead of "I believe..."
@@markmicco1005 Oh my.
Sauron was lucky to escape the Doom of Numenor. He couldn't have done something that would have gone against the Valar and Eru Himself.
@@str.77 Dude, let it go lol. Its a fantasy story that defies the rules reality. Its a cool little scenario that would have put another layer of awesome on top of that hot fudge sundae of great characters IF it actually happened bro...Maybe an inexpectlible anomaly like Tom Bombadil or something. Either way I don't think that it would have been the Doom of Tolkien's Masterwork. Again, IF it happened lmao
"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall."
Proverbs 16:18
In my head canon it always made sense the faithful leaders were watched by the kings men , and they had those ships waiting for an emergency exodus, but i would suspect that just regular citizens who kept the faith were probably more free to quietly take ship for middle earth, maybe climbing they wanted to makeva life in the colonies in middle earth and the king men probably wouldn't have objected, as they would still ne in the kings realm , elendil ship i suspect were for vip , and wealth. And it would explain the size of the army's or his ability to build new cities. As well as the numenoreans in middle earth, ( it seems logical)
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Tolkien did write about this. The Númenorean colonies in what would become Gondor and those farther north were where many of the Faithful settled before the destruction of Númenor while those who would become the Black Númenoreans settled farther south, such as in Umbar.
That song was sung by Aragorn in the movies I believe, such a great moment there!! I loved it
When the Valar play their "I win" card, and the celestial dictator turns the world from a flat plane into a sphere (along with massacring all the men, women and children on the island of Numenor), that is the worst immersion break for me in the whole legendarium. Firstly, for the fact that such an option exists in the first place, and secondly, because one does not simply turn a flat plane into a sphere without breaking literally the whole thing into dust and lava; it's a geometrical impossibility. (A cylinder or a torus could still work out somehow believably.)
One option, which wouldn't involve breaking the world, is that everyone was instantaneously teleported from a flat plane onto a sphere which was a close enough copy of the plane (everywhere locally) so that no-one would actually notice anything. But that wouldn't make sense either: one does not simply map the surface of a flat plane onto a sphere without completely screwing up the local geometry almost everywhere.
Sidenote: Would you ever to do a book review for the Fall of Númenor and the deluxe version of the Silmarillion?
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I’m not sure, it seems as though much of the Fall of Númenor book, while amazing, can be referenced in other HOME volumes. I’m not sure if I have much to add to the conversation, but I’ll keep it in mind 😄
"How did it come to this?"
This would have been the disaster movie of the century. Thoughts of Pompeii and vesuvius come to mind, where escape seems impossible, utter destruction is before you and the presence of death itself is here. Terrifying thought but it's in moments like that that your true self comes out.
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I have no plans to purchase the Fall of Numenor... but I already know it's better than the Rings of Power.
Numenor may have been sunked but Sauron did not expect those humans who could fight against him built their kingdom near Mordor. Since then, the opposing groups are now neighbors in the same continent.
I always took issue with the fact that Eru destroyed Númenor with such disregard for the innocent living on the Island, like Tar-Míriel. With a momentary thought, he would have been able to purge the evil doers that entered Valinor, without also killing every innocent.
I find it interesting that Tolkien ... as a religious person ... went this far. Its as if he sees the injustice in our world and the fact that gods here either dont have a role to assist, or seemingly do the same evil ... and he added this as a way to state his misgivings about the intent of any all powerful god. Does he see them as potentially evil and capable of great harm on the innocent?
It is a way to rationalize all the "evil deeds" that are described in religious texts of abrahimic origin,the one all loving god causing great chaos and suffering being attributed to something we can not comprehend is just the easiest way to maintain the character of the narrative.
Ar-Pharazon was already an evil king who only cared for himself, he doomed his people and brought ruin to his people and kingdom.
Simple: Numenor fell down. There. I saved you from a fantastic 10:23 video essay!
Short story
Atlantis 2.0
Long version
The island was sinked under the waves by eru himself
He also trapped the mad numenorians on valinor in a sort of underground cavern until the end of times
And finally he shifted valinor in a quasi different plane of existence metaphysical way.doing so he also changed the shape of the entire world from a flat earth to globe with only in mortals being able to reach the now shifted out valinor
Of the numerous colonies in middle earth we know that they divided themselves between the faithful(arnor and Gondor) and the kings man(umbar and southern colonies)
Sadly we know very little about the colonies of the kings man
The most well documented is umbar and only because of its role during the first capture of sauron by ar pharazon
And later because it was part of Gondor/its main naval rival
sunk
If I am not mistaken the fall of Numenor is also in the book The Silmarillion.
2:24-2:29 It was the Faithful who cut down the White Tree?
Ahhhhhh good catch, definitely meant to say the King’s Men!
I recently got the book!
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From a purely geologic perspective, the downfall as described sounds like the collapse of a volcano's magma chamber after all the magma has been blasted out. I know that Numenor is an allegory for Atlantis but I wonder if Tolkien had been inspired by the eruption of Santorini in ancient times
Also, I remember reading somewhere (not sure about this) that when Sauron first surrendered to Ar-Pharazon, that had left is ring safe in Barad-Dur. That would make a lot more sense in how it was saved.
Not an allegory but inspiration
@@sangbum60090 Good point - Tolkien didn't like allegory
My biggest gripe was why Sauron didn't turn into a vampire and fly away before Numenor became flooded. Was he unfortunate to be on the coast or the port when it happened, or was he in complete shock that Eru Illuvatar himself took action and froze in horror? The truth is that Sauron just laughed at Numenor's downfall and chilled in his temple without any thought of escaping. This is kind of weird for a fallen maiar and dark lord who has valued self-preservation ever since he begged for his life when Huan defeated him.
A couple of things don’t make sense to me about Sauron in the downfall of Numenor.
1. Why was Sauron’s corporeal form destroyed in the downfall of Numenor?
Sauron appeared fair to the Men of Numenor, because he had shape changed into a fair form. In the Elder Days, Sauron shape changed into the form of a winged vampire after being defeated by Huon the Hound of Valinor, and he flew away from Luthien. So, when Numenor fell, why didn’t Sauron shape change into a winged form, and fly back to Mordor, carrying the One Ring?
2. If Sauron’s corporeal form was destroyed in the Fall of Numenor because he had lost his ability to shape change, then how was he able to carry the One Ring, a corporeal object, back to Mordor?
Good points. I wouldn't be surprised if Eru somhow blocked him from doing so, like everything that was in Numenor was unable to escape
I was not expecting big daddy Y. to belch a tune but here we are. Not bad at all, stud
Can you maybe answer why the dead marshes remains haunted or cursed and what caused them to be that way. No other battleground is like the dead marshes
It's always been my headcanon that in the Dagor Dagorath Pharazon would become Tar Calion and fight for the Valar in the End.
The White Tree was cut by the Faithful? News to me :P
Sorry, totally meant to say King’s men!
@@MenoftheWest Happens to the best of us ;)
Can you make a What-if video on Tar-Miriel leaving the island alongside the faithful?
Do you know how many soldiers she'd have to duck and dodge in order for that to happen?
@@theofficialphoenixtv5765 No I don't. I don't know how many soldiers there were on Númenor after the Kingsmen left for Valinor (nor do I know the number before)
Can you do an episode of what's going to happen in the second season of The rings of powers are expecting what would happen?
8:06
👀….
🤷♂️
i was confused by the timeline when reading the silmarillion. didn't sauron "infiltrate" the elves after the fall of numenor and create the one ring? i believe it read in the book that he could no longer appear fair to men after the fall on numenor, am i mistaken?
Is that the song that Aragorn sings at the end of the return of the king (peter jackson film?)
Was Tolkien inspired by Atlantis by any chance?
Absolutely. He had dreams about this.
Ah yes the story of when the dark one convinced man to use his technology to rebel against the gods, and their civilization was destroyed for it.....a classic.
Cant wait to see how Amazon ruins this
I wonder if Rome or Atlantis would be the more fitting inspiration for Numenor and its fate? 🤔
10 Reasons Númenor is Atlantis.
1. "The Men of the Three Houses were rewarded for their valour and faithful alliance, by being allowed to dwell 'western-most of all mortals', in the great 'Atlantis' isle of Númenóre" - Tolkien Letter 131
2. "The three main themes are thus The Delaying Elves that lingered in Middle-earth; Sauron's growth to a new Dark Lord, master and god of Men; and Numenor-Atlantis." - Ibid.
3. "This was because they had been allies of the Elves in the First Age, and had for that reason been granted the Atlantis isle of Númenor." - Tolkien Letter 144
4. "The particular 'myth' which lies behind this tale, and the mood both of Men and Elves at this time, is the Downfall of Númenor: a special variety of the Atlantis tradition." - Tolkien Letter 154
5. "So ended Númenor-Atlantis and all its glory." - Tolkien Letter 156
6. "Númenor, shortened form of Númenórë, is my own invention, compounded from numē-n, 'going down' (√ndū, nu), sunset. West, and nōrë 'land, country' = Westernesse. The legends of Númenórë are only in the background of The Lord of the Rings, though (of course) they were written first, and are only summarised in Appendix A. They are my own use for my own purposes of the Atlantis legend..." - Tolkien Letter 227
7. "My book was never finished², but some of it (the Númenórean-Atlantis theme) got into my trilogy eventually." - Tolkien Letter 252
8. "...I began an abortive book of time-travel of which the end was to be the presence of my hero in the drowning of Atlantis. This was to be called Númenor, the Land in the West." - Tolkien Letter 257
9. "Lewis took no pan in 'research into Númenor'. N. is my personal alteration of the Atlantis myth and/or tradition, and accommodation of it to my general mythology." - Tolkien Letter 276
10. "My effort, after a few promising chapters, ran dry: it was too long a way round to what I really wanted to make, a new version of the Atlantis legend. The final scene survives as The Downfall of Númenor." - Tolkien Letter 294
Noob here, but do you (or anyone reading this) think we’ll see this in Rings of Power IF said show spans for a few seasons?
I highly doubt we'll see this type of fall since they are just speed running everything and probably won't have the cause of the fall like in the book
Yes
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@@Shane-or9de ...And what happened...
This is when Atlantis or Lemuria sank into the ocean, right?
The story of the fall of numenor was Saurons greatest victory and symbolic of icarus flying too high to the sun....
Yeah, once you start worshipping Melkor, you know you've jumped the shark....
Elendil left with so few ships, how many fit into them? How could so few buikt sich mighty kingdoms and big cities and defeat Sauron's armines all in one lifetime?
I heard from somewhere they interbreed with local populations of humans but I might be thinking of something else.
Do not watch Rings of Power. Instead, give your watch time to talented people like Charlie Hopkinson, George the Giant Slayer, Nerdrotic, Men of the West, Council of the Rings, In Deep Geek, Disparu, The broken sword, Wizards and warriors, Kings and Generals and Tolkien Untangled. Please avoid Shill channels like Nerd of the rings (though I like his lore specific videos), Tolkien Professor (Signum university) etc.
The Downpour of Numenor
“Deep dive into the downfall of Númenor”
Was that a pun?
Tolkien's version of Atlantis?
unless you watch Rings of Fanfic.....
May contain rings of power spoilers
_A₺lan₺is, land oF ₺Rojans: ..HeHe!! ..wi Ar Gods!! ..OuR Pen₺hyon ConQaaAr Wold.. LONG LİVE MORGOS!_
*Sovereign: {..Schminks A₺lan₺is}* 🌊🌊🌊
Well, it fell.
Omg spoiler alert jeez
I married Bjorn.
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Lots of people drowned. That’s what happened. Major ripoff of the Atlantis story if you want an opinion.
Sauron lied and people died
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Fact check true
The Abridged version!